John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?

[J70]

But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"

[J70]

It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

Can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?

Every post on this thread that engages in whataboutery (ie. a play for fake victimhood in the absence of being able to defend why Mitchel continues to adorn the names of GAA clubs) or says something like "where does it stop" (an explicit plea of fake victimhood - I always read such phrases in a stereotypical Brexiteer voice) is exactly the sort of thing I refer to in my first quoted post in this exchange.

The real lesson out of all this is that endemic racism and lack of accountability for racist police brutality persists not just in the US, but that endemic racism persists in all white majority societies, including Ireland.

Liveline ran for over a week with heartbreaking stories from Irish people of colour, we operate the dehumanising Direct provision system, and we have a very long running problem with anti-Traveller discrimination and bigotry in this country. Peter Casey saw his vote multiply twentyfold when he decided to go full racist.

Symbols are a great way of perpetuating that endemic racism, and yet here we have a load of white people who fail to see  problem with the glorification of a confederate, pro-slavery propagandist.

And every single word here in favour of the retention of John Mitchel's name adorning GAA clubs has been dripping in the exact sort of fake white victimhood I talk about.

When endemic racism is highlighted, white supremacists always attempt to change the narrative.

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number one was "this issue is not the endmic racism and the lack of accountabilty for racist police brutality, the issue is the looting".

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number two is "They've gone too far! Where does it stop?!!!"

White supremacism isn't just people going round in KKK hoods or holding burning torches or shouting about blood and soil or driving cars into innocent anti-fascist protestors, you know.

White supremacism is the search for narratives to deflect, to deny, to turn reality on its head, to turn victimhood on its head, when white people are taken out of their comfort zone.

We have a very long running problem with Travellers!

We have w very long running problem with plenty of different types of people on this island. Why single out travellers?

Don't be naive. There's a reason why there is so much anti-traveller feeling in this country (and in Britain). No other group has such a high percentage of scumbags amongst them.  There is a huge problem with them. Intimidating, thieving, interrogating, torturing and threatening people and neighbourhoods. Fines and sentencing clearly doesn't work as their criminal record won't affect them getting mortgages, jobs etc, the way it affects everyone else. Police mostly don't want to know when it comes to dealing with them. Everyone of them are the same, raised and taught to be like this from a young age.

Absolute scum the lot of them.

Wow.

[whitey]

But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"

If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

[J70]

But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"

If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

How is a name change "erasing history"?

[Chief]

But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"

If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

Like when Kings and Queens County where renamed? I'm guessing you think that was wrong - it's "erasing history" after all.

And maybe you want O'Connell Street renamed "Sackville Street" again because it was silly of those "weak and easily offended" Irish (damn snowflakes)  to try and make it more reflective of their society and aspirations.

Or am wrong?

Maybe I am.

I'm guessing you'll swerve the question for a while, engage in some deflection (probably do an internet search or two to buy some time), and then eventually come back with a version of "its one rule for us and another for everyone else"

[dec]

The issue with Confederate monuments in the US is that they were specifically raised to honour the Confederacy and send a message that those who created the monuments would resist civil rights for blacks.

No GAA club chose John Mitchel because of his pro-slavery views.

[whitey]

But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"

If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

How is a name change "erasing history"?

You never have to talk about it or address it if you remove it.

Castlebar Mitchels actually had an expert come in and give a talk on the history of John Mitchel last year, long before a bunch of snowflakes got their knickers in a twist about something that's trending on social media. I wonder how many people outside the club bothered to attend

[Baile Brigín 2]

The issue with Confederate monuments in the US is that they were specifically raised to honour the Confederacy and send a message that those who created the monuments would resist civil rights for blacks.

No GAA club chose John Mitchel because of his pro-slavery views.

Nobody claimed they did.

The question is whether the decision needs to be revisited.

[whitey]

But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"

If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

Like when Kings and Queens County where renamed? I'm guessing you think that was wrong - it's "erasing history" after all.

And maybe you want O'Connell Street renamed "Sackville Street" again because it was silly of those "weak and easily offended" Irish (damn snowflakes)  to try and make it more reflective of their society and aspirations.

Or am wrong?

Maybe I am.

I'm guessing you'll swerve the question for a while, engage in some deflection (probably do an internet search or two to buy some time), and then eventually come back with a version of "its one rule for us and another for everyone else"

Every town and county is different

Castlebar and Westport kept their original street names post Independence-Ballina chose to change theirs.

If Castlebar or Tralee or Newry choose to keep their clubs name that's the decision for the club members....no-one else!

[Chief]

But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"

If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

Like when Kings and Queens County where renamed? I'm guessing you think that was wrong - it's "erasing history" after all.

And maybe you want O'Connell Street renamed "Sackville Street" again because it was silly of those "weak and easily offended" Irish (damn snowflakes)  to try and make it more reflective of their society and aspirations.

Or am wrong?

Maybe I am.

I'm guessing you'll swerve the question for a while, engage in some deflection (probably do an internet search or two to buy some time), and then eventually come back with a version of "its one rule for us and another for everyone else"

Every town and county is different

Castlebar and Westport kept their original street names post Independence-Ballina chose to change theirs.

If Castlebar or Tralee or Newry choose to keep their clubs name that's the decision for the club members....no-one else!

Ah so those who changed it weren't just "weak and easily offended" sorts then?

And they weren't "erasing history"?

It was just up to themselves.

Funny that.

[whitey]

But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"

If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

Like when Kings and Queens County where renamed? I'm guessing you think that was wrong - it's "erasing history" after all.

And maybe you want O'Connell Street renamed "Sackville Street" again because it was silly of those "weak and easily offended" Irish (damn snowflakes)  to try and make it more reflective of their society and aspirations.

Or am wrong?

Maybe I am.

I'm guessing you'll swerve the question for a while, engage in some deflection (probably do an internet search or two to buy some time), and then eventually come back with a version of "its one rule for us and another for everyone else"

Every town and county is different

Castlebar and Westport kept their original street names post Independence-Ballina chose to change theirs.

If Castlebar or Tralee or Newry choose to keep their clubs name that's the decision for the club members....no-one else!

Ah so those who changed it weren't just "weak and easily offended" sorts then?

And they weren't "erasing history"?

It was just up to themselves.

Funny that.

Changing the name of something 130 years later because its offensive (to a minority of people) when viewed through a contemporary lens is nothing less than pandering to political correctness. People who pander to a politically correct mob, are indeed weak and easily offended

[Chief]

But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"

If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

Like when Kings and Queens County where renamed? I'm guessing you think that was wrong - it's "erasing history" after all.

And maybe you want O'Connell Street renamed "Sackville Street" again because it was silly of those "weak and easily offended" Irish (damn snowflakes)  to try and make it more reflective of their society and aspirations.

Or am wrong?

Maybe I am.

I'm guessing you'll swerve the question for a while, engage in some deflection (probably do an internet search or two to buy some time), and then eventually come back with a version of "its one rule for us and another for everyone else"

Every town and county is different

Castlebar and Westport kept their original street names post Independence-Ballina chose to change theirs.

If Castlebar or Tralee or Newry choose to keep their clubs name that's the decision for the club members....no-one else!

Ah so those who changed it weren't just "weak and easily offended" sorts then?

And they weren't "erasing history"?

It was just up to themselves.

Funny that.

Changing the name of something 130 years later because its offensive (to a minority of people) when viewed through a contemporary lens is nothing less than pandering to political correctness. People who pander to a politically correct mob, are indeed weak and easily offended

Your ability to speak out of both sides of your mouth is fascinating.

Just to note. Slavery had always been offensive - at least to the enslaved.

Ireland as a whole certainly seems to think so, in fact it offends us that much it's in our national anthem "no more our ancient sire land, shall shelter the despot or the slave"

I guess by extension of your logic, that means as a nation we must have always been weak and easily offended though?

Again hard to tell if I'm following your logic correctly, your double speak game is strong

[whitey]

So are you just offended by slavery?

Are you not also offended by the Nazis? If you are, the Dan Breen Cup and the Galtee Mountain Boy should be all done. Ditto Tom Barry

Are you not offended by the IRA "murdering" people?  If you are several clubs, pitches and competitions will need to be renamed

Are you not offended by anti-semitism?  That's Arthur Griffith done, and possibly Michael Cusack too.

Are you not offended by child sexual abuse? Casement.....all done

So sure, have your knickers in a twist about John Mitchell......but let's look at the name of every team, cup and pitch in the country while we are at it. Either everything is on the table or nothing should be on the table.

[J70]

But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"

If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

How is a name change "erasing history"?

You never have to talk about it or address it if you remove it.

Castlebar Mitchels actually had an expert come in and give a talk on the history of John Mitchel last year, long before a bunch of snowflakes got their knickers in a twist about something that's trending on social media. I wonder how many people outside the club bothered to attend

Ok, now you're starting to sound hysterical. Spare us the snowflake bullshit.

That aside, I don't get your logic. Are you saying that Castlebar should keep the name so that Mitchel and his views will be a topic of discussion? Seriously?

Regardless, the vast majority of people do not learn about Mitchel because a few clubs are named after him. And the replacement of his name in those clubs would not erase him from Irish history, any more than the removal of confederate statues from the public square in the US would erase their shameful, infamous  chapter from American history.

And also, the reason it's "trending" is because the vast majority of people didn't even know that some GAA clubs were named after a committed devotee of and advocate for antebellum southern slavery. It is absolutely an appropriate issue for discussion, just like those confederate flags and statues.

[sid waddell]

Don't be naive. There's a reason why there is so much anti-traveller feeling in this country (and in Britain). No other group has such a high percentage of scumbags amongst them.  There is a huge problem with them. Intimidating, thieving, interrogating, torturing and threatening people and neighbourhoods. Fines and sentencing clearly doesn't work as their criminal record won't affect them getting mortgages, jobs etc, the way it affects everyone else. Police mostly don't want to know when it comes to dealing with them. Everyone of them are the same, raised and taught to be like this from a young age.

Absolute scum the lot of them.

This sort of stuff could have come straight from Goebbels.

It's amazing how people don't understand basic historical frameworks.

Actually, you don't even have to understand them.

All it requires to understand the implications of the above screed is to not be a hateful person.