John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?

[Chief]

For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .

So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Poor taste .

It's not. Its the conclusion of that narrow logic.

Mitchel was an extreme racist, but ignore that, he was sound on the national question.

Then we can easily ignore Churchills racism and the Tans or Stalins genocide, sure they beat the Nazis. So what if Michael Jackson raped kids, he invented a dance. Saville built a whole focking hospital.

Tipperary are going to have to find a new cup for their Senior Hurling Champions....Dan Breen Cup is  no longer acceptable and should be melted down

Dan Breen was a big supporter of the Nazis

I've no idea if that's true or not. 

I'd be sorely disappointed if it was. I'd always considered him a National hero due to his leadership in the War of Independence 

But let's say it is.

Are you ok with a cup named after a Nazi sympathiser?

Or again am I wrong in concluding that because there are no Jews hurling in Tipperary right now (again no idea if that's true or not) you think that Nazi sympathisers are grand fellas to name cups after? As I say you never did "join the dots for me"?

Oh Dan Breen was indeed a Nazi supporter, and he remained unapologetic afterwards.

Sure he even carried a Nazi spy's coffin.

Breen was a bloodthirsty lunatic and certainly no hero.

Arthur Griffith-time up for him too

His newspaper supported the boycott of Jewish Business in Limerick

https://www.irelandisrael.ie/blog/anti-semitism-in-ireland/

I see you are now straight up swerving my question now whitey. So far your whataboutery tactics in this debate have been as follows:

- Re-stating my position over and over again for some odd reason.
- What about the DUP?
- What about this street named after Lord Lucan? 
- What about Dan Breen?
- What about Arthur Griffith?
I'm sure everyone will draw their own conclusions from your silence on a simple question I asked you multiple times now.

Or are you maybe struggling to figure out who asked it again?

Anyway, please do share the next example you want to "what about" about after you've spent another hour on the internet looking for it. It only amplifies your silence.

[whitey]

For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .

So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Poor taste .

It's not. Its the conclusion of that narrow logic.

Mitchel was an extreme racist, but ignore that, he was sound on the national question.

Then we can easily ignore Churchills racism and the Tans or Stalins genocide, sure they beat the Nazis. So what if Michael Jackson raped kids, he invented a dance. Saville built a whole focking hospital.

Tipperary are going to have to find a new cup for their Senior Hurling Champions....Dan Breen Cup is  no longer acceptable and should be melted down

Dan Breen was a big supporter of the Nazis

I've no idea if that's true or not. 

I'd be sorely disappointed if it was. I'd always considered him a National hero due to his leadership in the War of Independence 

But let's say it is.

Are you ok with a cup named after a Nazi sympathiser?

Or again am I wrong in concluding that because there are no Jews hurling in Tipperary right now (again no idea if that's true or not) you think that Nazi sympathisers are grand fellas to name cups after? As I say you never did "join the dots for me"?

Oh Dan Breen was indeed a Nazi supporter, and he remained unapologetic afterwards.

Sure he even carried a Nazi spy's coffin.

Breen was a bloodthirsty lunatic and certainly no hero.

Arthur Griffith-time up for him too

His newspaper supported the boycott of Jewish Business in Limerick

https://www.irelandisrael.ie/blog/anti-semitism-in-ireland/

I see you are now straight up swerving my question now whitey.

I'm sure everyone will draw their own conclusions from your silence on a simple question.

Or are you maybe struggling to figure out who asked it again?

Oh....I now see it

Personally I am fine with a cup named after Dan Breen

His contribution to the fight for Irish Freedom far outweighs any "support" he gave the Nazis.

He and other Republicans were obviously attending the "my enemies enemy is my friend" school of thought.

But if we apply the John Mitchel standard......it has to go

History is complicated and people are complicated. We could probably go back and look at the ALL positions held by any number of historical figures and find things that are objectionable by today's standards. Picking on Mitchell is easy because slavery is abhorrent, but when you point a finger, you have three pointing back on yourself.

[Maiden1]

The best hope of avoiding controversy is to pick a saints name from about the 10th century that there only is about 2 lines written on, the lines are probably written by a monk in the 12 century and are going to portray the person as a saint so there is a good chance you should be fine with them.  Anyone post about 1800 there is a good chance there will be some dirt on them.

[Ed Ricketts]

How about a shift to memorialising the deed or cause rather than the person or people involved?

People have always been too complex and flawed to idolise in their totality. Most that we choose to elevate played parts in collective efforts anyway.

[Rossfan]

Someone listed clubs named after saints earlier but I can't think of a single one in Mayo - are there any?

I wouldn't expect there to be in a County full of 😈👹.

[Baile Brigín 2]

For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .

So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Poor taste .

It's not. Its the conclusion of that narrow logic.

Mitchel was an extreme racist, but ignore that, he was sound on the national question.

Then we can easily ignore Churchills racism and the Tans or Stalins genocide, sure they beat the Nazis. So what if Michael Jackson raped kids, he invented a dance. Saville built a whole focking hospital.

Tipperary are going to have to find a new cup for their Senior Hurling Champions....Dan Breen Cup is  no longer acceptable and should be melted down

Dan Breen was a big supporter of the Nazis

And these are the conversations we need to have.

Was he a big Nazi? Was he employed by the Nazis? Did he rag on Jews?

I think there is an objective difference between an unsavoury opinion and actual acts to further said agenda

[whitey]

For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .

So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Poor taste .

It's not. Its the conclusion of that narrow logic.

Mitchel was an extreme racist, but ignore that, he was sound on the national question.

Then we can easily ignore Churchills racism and the Tans or Stalins genocide, sure they beat the Nazis. So what if Michael Jackson raped kids, he invented a dance. Saville built a whole focking hospital.

Tipperary are going to have to find a new cup for their Senior Hurling Champions....Dan Breen Cup is  no longer acceptable and should be melted down

Dan Breen was a big supporter of the Nazis

And these are the conversations we need to have.

Was he a big Nazi? Was he employed by the Nazis? Did he rag on Jews?

I think there is an objective difference between an unsavoury opinion and actual acts to further said agenda

I wish I could say it was just some throw away comment he made.....it's more serious than that

It would actually be a disqualifier for some I'm sad to say

Personally, I wouldn't have an issue with it

[sid waddell]

Some fuckwits on this thread now! So John Mitchell is up there with Michael Jackson Jimmy Saville Himmler and Churchill

The guy was a slavery supporter he was quoted saying the slaves were treated better than the Irish back home, he ran a newspaper (unsuccessfully) his children died in the war for the confederacy, no talk of owning slaves beating slaves or rapping them, this practice of owning slaves was legal at the time though it was completely wrong. But he came back to Ireland and his focus wasn't slaves or the confederates it was freeing Ireland.

Was he wrong with his views? Yes, should his name be tarnished because of that? Completely, but his lasting memory won't be What he did in America.

The clubs will no doubt talk about it but I'd be very surprised they'll change their name

A lot of terrible things were "legal".

Mitchel himself, not just his sons, served in the confederate army during the US Civil War.

Funny you mention Churchill in the same breath as Himmler.

So you obviously think Churchill's statue should be removed?

Here's the thing, I didn't mention him, people are bringing these names up in what about this and what about him and blah blah. Removing statues? We've jumped from clubs being named after someone who served in the confederate army to removing statues of Churchill!

It's the fuckwits that change the topic with the other shit. People like you

I didn't bring up Churchill, you did.

I haven't changed the topic at all.

[sid waddell]

The best hope of avoiding controversy is to pick a saints name from about the 10th century that there only is about 2 lines written on, the lines are probably written by a monk in the 12 century and are going to portray the person as a saint so there is a good chance you should be fine with them.  Anyone post about 1800 there is a good chance there will be some dirt on them.

The best way to avoid controversy is to pick somebody or something who didn't fight for slavery.

[Baile Brigín 2]

The best hope of avoiding controversy is to pick a saints name from about the 10th century that there only is about 2 lines written on, the lines are probably written by a monk in the 12 century and are going to portray the person as a saint so there is a good chance you should be fine with them.  Anyone post about 1800 there is a good chance there will be some dirt on them.

The best way to avoid controversy is to pick somebody or something who didn't fight for slavery.

Name a person and I am confident I could find something on them that at least some people will find controversial

Mother Teresa
Michael Collins
Abraham Lincoln
Winston Churchill

Thief, traitor, nothing jumps out, drunk genocidal bigot.

Do you think there is much demand for a club named after Churchill or Theresa?

[Maiden1]

The best hope of avoiding controversy is to pick a saints name from about the 10th century that there only is about 2 lines written on, the lines are probably written by a monk in the 12 century and are going to portray the person as a saint so there is a good chance you should be fine with them.  Anyone post about 1800 there is a good chance there will be some dirt on them.

The best way to avoid controversy is to pick somebody or something who didn't fight for slavery.

Name a person and I am confident I could find something on them that at least some people will find controversial

Mother Teresa
Michael Collins
Abraham Lincoln
Winston Churchill

Thief, traitor, nothing jumps out, drunk genocidal bigot.

Do you think there is much demand for a club named after Churchill or Theresa?

Drunk Genocidal bigot for Churchill for sure and in fairness having just read more on Mitchel's wiki page some of his views are not great.

It still holds true that it will be hard to find a person without controversy.  One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter depending on your point of view could be labelled against practical every club named after a person who fought in the conflict in Ireland.

[five points]

Unless you're either an ancient saint, or you have killed at least one other person, you don't really stand a chance in this country of having something named after you.

[sid waddell]

It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

[Taylor]

It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

Can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?

[sid waddell]

It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

Can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?

Every post on this thread that engages in whataboutery (ie. a play for fake victimhood in the absence of being able to defend why Mitchel continues to adorn the names of GAA clubs) or says something like "where does it stop" (an explicit plea of fake victimhood - I always read such phrases in a stereotypical Brexiteer voice) is exactly the sort of thing I refer to in my first quoted post in this exchange.

The real lesson out of all this is that endemic racism and lack of accountability for racist police brutality persists not just in the US, but that endemic racism persists in all white majority societies, including Ireland.

Liveline ran for over a week with heartbreaking stories from Irish people of colour, we operate the dehumanising Direct provision system, and we have a very long running problem with anti-Traveller discrimination and bigotry in this country. Peter Casey saw his vote multiply twentyfold when he decided to go full racist.

Symbols are a great way of perpetuating that endemic racism, and yet here we have a load of white people who fail to see  problem with the glorification of a confederate, pro-slavery propagandist.

And every single word here in favour of the retention of John Mitchel's name adorning GAA clubs has been dripping in the exact sort of fake white victimhood I talk about.

When endemic racism is highlighted, white supremacists always attempt to change the narrative.

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number one was "this issue is not the endmic racism and the lack of accountabilty for racist police brutality, the issue is the looting".

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number two is "They've gone too far! Where does it stop?!!!"

White supremacism isn't just people going round in KKK hoods or holding burning torches or shouting about blood and soil or driving cars into innocent anti-fascist protestors, you know.

White supremacism is the search for narratives to deflect, to deny, to turn reality on its head, to turn victimhood on its head, when white people are taken out of their comfort zone.