John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?

[weareros]

Perhaps it's time just to have clubs named after the townland. If you want something fancy, just add Gaels after the place (eg Western Gaels) or Harps, Eastern Harps, or if feeling very adventurous how about Slashers, like Longford Slashers. If you really need a name go with a Saint from long ago who may or may not even have existed, like Saint Bridget. Presumably any dirt would have shown up by now.

[Eire90]

personally id rather have clubs just named after the area they are on more easy to recognize

[Eire90]

Bring american style names lol.

[whitey]

So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

Fair enough....that's what I thought your position was all along

So if the broader community (not just GAA members from other clubs) finds something offensive, I assume they should also be allowed to petition for a change? (Like the person on the Mayo blog a few years ago calling for the crest to be changed as it was exclusionary)

Yup.

The team/club/county/association in question could then make a decision in response to the petition, and accept the risk/rewards of it.

Jaysus.....I hope no one from the DUP is reading this blog. They could start petitioning for all sorts of name changes and then demand the withholding of any taxpayer funding if they don't get their way. They could also demand that sponsors of the offending clubs be prohibited from being given any govt contracts.

[Chief]

So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

Fair enough....that's what I thought your position was all along

So if the broader community (not just GAA members from other clubs) finds something offensive, I assume they should also be allowed to petition for a change? (Like the person on the Mayo blog a few years ago calling for the crest to be changed as it was exclusionary)

Yup.

The team/club/county/association in question could then make a decision in response to the petition, and accept the risk/rewards of it.

Jaysus.....I hope no one from the DUP is reading this blog. They could start petitioning for all sorts of name changes and then demand the withholding of any taxpayer funding if they don't get their way. They could also demand that sponsors of the offending clubs be prohibited from being given any govt contracts.

I'll respond to your whataboutery and scaremongering and then steer us all back onto the main issue of this thread.

I don't know about you and yours, but any of the clubs  I know would happily face down the DUP in your contrived scenario. Regardless of whatever sanction they tried to enforce.

We're run by adults you see who can follow the logic of an argument even when it doesn't suit us, and if we need to face down bigotry (or indeed face down facetious petitions), or indeed positions others don't like, and pay a financial price we'd do that.

Thankfully however we won't have to it in retort to racism/slavery - which as I say is the whole point of this thread.

[whitey]

So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

I think we may have gotten to the crux of the issue here with your use of the word "glorify".

Is retaining the name, "glorifying" that individual or is it simply a recognition of that persons role in the history of our country's fight for freedom.

In Castlebar, they have a Lucan Street called after a notorious local Landlord.  He was nicknamed  the "Great Exterminator" for his callous treatment of tenants during the famine when he evicted thousands and left tens of thousands of others to starve to death.

Following your logic, the people of Castlebar are "glorifying" Lord Lucan by retaining the name of the street!

There has actually been debate over the years about changing it, but the majority of the residents want it retained because it helps keep the memory of those who perished very much alive

[tonto1888]

For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .

So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Hmm, paedo and person who advocated slavery are now in the same boat

The principle is the same. Can we just ignoee the bad when it suits us?

Can we just stick to point of the thread rather than links to perverts? Use examples of racism for this would be best.

Slavery was never right, and I don't know if he had slaves himself or just wrote about it, he could have changed his mind when he came home from America and fought to break the chains of English rule here. Either way linking him to Saville is not the same principle ffs

It wasn't, but in years to come, people will probably be appalled by their parents/grandparents generation that many people were against same sex marriage, and voted against it in the referendum.

And like I said earlier, if a club is set up now and named after Joe Bloggs, who it turned out, voted against SSM back in 2016 or whenever... will they demand Joe Bloggs' name removed from their club in 2050 as he will likely be looked on as homophobic?

Voting no in that referendum will never be in the same league as supporting/being involved in slavery

[whitey]

So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

Fair enough....that's what I thought your position was all along

So if the broader community (not just GAA members from other clubs) finds something offensive, I assume they should also be allowed to petition for a change? (Like the person on the Mayo blog a few years ago calling for the crest to be changed as it was exclusionary)

Yup.

The team/club/county/association in question could then make a decision in response to the petition, and accept the risk/rewards of it.

Jaysus.....I hope no one from the DUP is reading this blog. They could start petitioning for all sorts of name changes and then demand the withholding of any taxpayer funding if they don't get their way. They could also demand that sponsors of the offending clubs be prohibited from being given any govt contracts.

I'll respond to your whataboutery and scaremongering and then steer us all back onto the main issue of this thread.

I don't know about you and yours, but any of the clubs  I know would happily face down the DUP in your contrived scenario. Regardless of whatever sanction they tried to enforce.

We're run by adults you see who can follow the logic of an argument even when it doesn't suit us, and if we need to face down bigotry (or indeed face down facetious petitions), or indeed positions others don't like, and pay a financial price we'd do that.

Thankfully however we won't have to it in retort to racism/slavery - which as I say is the whole point of this thread.

Fair enough, but read what J70 said

If the GAA demands a name change and a club refuses to comply,  they then would no longer be eligible to receive grants and the club sponsors should also have retribution exacted upon them

And the request for the  name change, according to J70s criteria, can come from anyone in the broader community

[larryin89]

Load of nonsense and all clubs and counties should have a "up de RA " logo on them too.

[Chief]

So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

I think we may have gotten to the crux of the issue here with your use of the word "glorify".

Is retaining the name, "glorifying" that individual or is it simply a recognition of that persons role in the history of our country's fight for freedom.

In Castlebar, they have a Lucan Street called after a notorious local Landlord.  He was nicknamed  the "Great Exterminator" for his callous treatment of tenants during the famine when he evicted thousands and left tens of thousands of others to starve to death.

Following your logic, the people of Castlebar are "glorifying" Lord Lucan by retaining the name of the street!

There has actually been debate over the years about changing it, but the majority of the residents want it retained because it helps keep the memory of those who perished very much alive

If you name a club after someone you are endorsing them as someone worthy of esteem.

I can't claim to have though too much about street names but my instinct is that I'd have sympathy for removing them too.

All that being said, if victims or their descendants want names retained for whatever reason I don't think I'd be able venture any argument that would trump that. That's a victim's/descendants prerogative imo.

That's a different thing though to what we are discussing here.

I don't think any victims/descendants are asking for John Mitchell's name to remain on GAA clubs as an educational effort or act of remembrance for victims

[BennyCake]

Bring american style names lol.

Dingle Dolphins?
Real Salthill?
Killarney Lakers?

[whitey]

Mayo's most famous hurling club actually have "The Devil" in their logo (because the only other exciting thing to have ever happened in Tooreen is that the Devil supposedly appeared at their local dance hall back in the 1960s)

I suppose will be accusing them of Satanism next

[BennyCake]

For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .

So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Hmm, paedo and person who advocated slavery are now in the same boat

The principle is the same. Can we just ignoee the bad when it suits us?

Can we just stick to point of the thread rather than links to perverts? Use examples of racism for this would be best.

Slavery was never right, and I don't know if he had slaves himself or just wrote about it, he could have changed his mind when he came home from America and fought to break the chains of English rule here. Either way linking him to Saville is not the same principle ffs

It wasn't, but in years to come, people will probably be appalled by their parents/grandparents generation that many people were against same sex marriage, and voted against it in the referendum.

And like I said earlier, if a club is set up now and named after Joe Bloggs, who it turned out, voted against SSM back in 2016 or whenever... will they demand Joe Bloggs' name removed from their club in 2050 as he will likely be looked on as homophobic?

Voting no in that referendum will never be in the same league as supporting/being involved in slavery

For some people, it might be.

[whitey]

So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

I think we may have gotten to the crux of the issue here with your use of the word "glorify".

Is retaining the name, "glorifying" that individual or is it simply a recognition of that persons role in the history of our country's fight for freedom.

In Castlebar, they have a Lucan Street called after a notorious local Landlord.  He was nicknamed  the "Great Exterminator" for his callous treatment of tenants during the famine when he evicted thousands and left tens of thousands of others to starve to death.

Following your logic, the people of Castlebar are "glorifying" Lord Lucan by retaining the name of the street!

There has actually been debate over the years about changing it, but the majority of the residents want it retained because it helps keep the memory of those who perished very much alive

If you name a club after someone you are endorsing them as someone worthy of esteem.

I can't claim to have though too much about street names but my instinct is that I'd have sympathy for removing them too.

All that being said, if victims or their descendants want names retained for whatever reason I don't think I'd be able venture any argument that would trump that. That's a victim's/descendants prerogative imo.

That's a different thing though to what we are discussing here.

I don't think any victims/descendants are asking for John Mitchell's name to remain on GAA clubs as an educational effort or act of remembrance for victims

And how many descendants of victims of the Confederacy live in Newry, Castlebar or Tralee.

I'm not a betting person, but I'd say zero is a pretty good bet.

So others are now taking it upon themselves to be outraged on their behalf.

I could concoct all types of things I could be outraged about if I started playing connect the dots

[Chief]

So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

I think we may have gotten to the crux of the issue here with your use of the word "glorify".

Is retaining the name, "glorifying" that individual or is it simply a recognition of that persons role in the history of our country's fight for freedom.

In Castlebar, they have a Lucan Street called after a notorious local Landlord.  He was nicknamed  the "Great Exterminator" for his callous treatment of tenants during the famine when he evicted thousands and left tens of thousands of others to starve to death.

Following your logic, the people of Castlebar are "glorifying" Lord Lucan by retaining the name of the street!

There has actually been debate over the years about changing it, but the majority of the residents want it retained because it helps keep the memory of those who perished very much alive

If you name a club after someone you are endorsing them as someone worthy of esteem.

I can't claim to have though too much about street names but my instinct is that I'd have sympathy for removing them too.

All that being said, if victims or their descendants want names retained for whatever reason I don't think I'd be able venture any argument that would trump that. That's a victim's/descendants prerogative imo.

That's a different thing though to what we are discussing here.

I don't think any victims/descendants are asking for John Mitchell's name to remain on GAA clubs as an educational effort or act of remembrance for victims

And how many descendants of victims of the Confederacy live in Newry, Castlebar or Tralee.

I'm not a betting person, but I'd say zero is a pretty good bet.

So others are now taking it upon themselves to be outraged on their behalf.

I could concoct all types of things I could be outraged about if I started playing connect the dots

Ah now I think I'm seeing your point. He only advocated killing a heap of black peoples years ago, and because they weren't from Newry, Tralee and Castlebar he's a grand fella to name a club after.

Have I got that right or have I failed to join the dots properly?