John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?

[Gmac]

You could go back and forth on this for weeks can we do a poll on it ?

[whitey]

That's your credible evidence?

As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

I did not demand that.

Apologies if I misunderstood one of your prior posts

"Personally, I think it is absolutely a matter for the wider GAA, but reasonable people can disagree."

So non club members or a bureaucrat in GAA HQ gets to dictate to a club who've been in existence for 100 years what their name should be?

Let the club and their members make the decision and let everyone else mind their own business

I absolutely think it is a matter for the wider GAA... to discuss and consider. This is a difficult issue for all of the reasons that have been suggested. But the perception and reputation of the GAA is potentially a factor, hence my leaning towards it not just being the affair of an individual club.

However, I didn't demand the removal of his name.

So if one of the clubs in question says thanks for your input but we're keeping the name what is your response?

[Eire90]

Someone should turn up with a north korea flag at gaa event just to confuse them half the clowns probably wont know it anyway

[Maiden1]

Aye, Mickey Marley.

Had to google that.

Isn't it odd that very few clubs commemorate working class/labour figures. Always the catholic nationalist side.

Dozens of Pearses. One named after Connolly. And thats in Glasgow.

Are amy GAA clubs named after women who aren't St. Bridget?

St Rynagh's x2 in OY.

St Marys Burren
St Bronagh Rostrevor
St Dympna Dromore
St Teresa Belfast
St Agnes Belfast
St Ita Cork

There are probably loads more

[Chief]

That's your credible evidence?

As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

I did not demand that.

Apologies if I misunderstood one of your prior posts

"Personally, I think it is absolutely a matter for the wider GAA, but reasonable people can disagree."

So non club members or a bureaucrat in GAA HQ gets to dictate to a club who've been in existence for 100 years what their name should be?

Let the club and their members make the decision and let everyone else mind their own business

I absolutely think it is a matter for the wider GAA... to discuss and consider. This is a difficult issue for all of the reasons that have been suggested. But the perception and reputation of the GAA is potentially a factor, hence my leaning towards it not just being the affair of an individual club.

However, I didn't demand the removal of his name.

So if one of the clubs in question says thanks for your input but we're keeping the name what is your response?

You either
(a) accept their decision (but publicly denounce their decision) and allow them to fend for themselves when it comes to media and society's criticism or;
(b) kick them out of the Association   
(c) create a criteria (that applies retrospectively) which mandates how all clubs must be named across the island (e.g. no political figures, no religious figures, or figures otherwise that will bring the Association into disrepute)

None are pretty but those are the options.

I'd go for a - you can't make them change without opening a Pandora's box regarding the naming of grounds, clubs, cups after physical force republicans, religious figures etc so condemn their decision, encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place but in the short term accept they have made their bed and are prepared to lie in it

[BennyCake]

That's your credible evidence?

As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

I did not demand that.

Apologies if I misunderstood one of your prior posts

"Personally, I think it is absolutely a matter for the wider GAA, but reasonable people can disagree."

So non club members or a bureaucrat in GAA HQ gets to dictate to a club who've been in existence for 100 years what their name should be?

Let the club and their members make the decision and let everyone else mind their own business

I absolutely think it is a matter for the wider GAA... to discuss and consider. This is a difficult issue for all of the reasons that have been suggested. But the perception and reputation of the GAA is potentially a factor, hence my leaning towards it not just being the affair of an individual club.

However, I didn't demand the removal of his name.

So if one of the clubs in question says thanks for your input but we're keeping the name what is your response?

You either
(a) accept their decision (but publicly denounce their decision) and allow them to fend for themselves when it comes to media and society's criticism or;
(b) kick them out of the Association   
(c) create a criteria (that applies retrospectively) which mandates how all clubs must be named across the island (e.g. no political figures, no religious figures, or figures otherwise that will bring the Association into disrepute)

None are pretty but those are the options.

I'd go for a - you can't make them change without opening a Pandora's box regarding the naming of grounds, clubs, cups after physical force republicans, religious figures etc so condemn their decision, encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place but in the short term accept they have made their bed and are prepared to lie in it

If a new club is founded and named after a local GAA person, but in 30 years time it's discovered he voted 'no' in the same sex marriage referendum.

Is this what the future snowflakes will have an issue with, akin to what they're currently having about John Mitchell? And will they then demand the club drop their name in 2050?

[Baile Brigín 2]

For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .

So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Hmm, paedo and person who advocated slavery are now in the same boat

The principle is the same. Can we just ignoee the bad when it suits us?

[Chief]

That's your credible evidence?

As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

I did not demand that.

Apologies if I misunderstood one of your prior posts

"Personally, I think it is absolutely a matter for the wider GAA, but reasonable people can disagree."

So non club members or a bureaucrat in GAA HQ gets to dictate to a club who've been in existence for 100 years what their name should be?

Let the club and their members make the decision and let everyone else mind their own business

I absolutely think it is a matter for the wider GAA... to discuss and consider. This is a difficult issue for all of the reasons that have been suggested. But the perception and reputation of the GAA is potentially a factor, hence my leaning towards it not just being the affair of an individual club.

However, I didn't demand the removal of his name.

So if one of the clubs in question says thanks for your input but we're keeping the name what is your response?

You either
(a) accept their decision (but publicly denounce their decision) and allow them to fend for themselves when it comes to media and society's criticism or;
(b) kick them out of the Association   
(c) create a criteria (that applies retrospectively) which mandates how all clubs must be named across the island (e.g. no political figures, no religious figures, or figures otherwise that will bring the Association into disrepute)

None are pretty but those are the options.

I'd go for a - you can't make them change without opening a Pandora's box regarding the naming of grounds, clubs, cups after physical force republicans, religious figures etc so condemn their decision, encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place but in the short term accept they have made their bed and are prepared to lie in it

If a new club is founded and named after a local GAA person, but in 30 years time it's discovered he voted 'no' in the same sex marriage referendum.

Is this what the future snowflakes will have an issue with, akin to what they're currently having about John Mitchell? And will they then demand the club drop their name in 2050?

A few things

You'll note I advocated option (a) not option (c).

Slavery & Racism (and its apologists) are not 'snowflake' issues.

Finally, if society in 50 years decides that's important enough to them for them to do that, then that will be a legitimate course of action.

[Milltown Row2]

For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .

So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Hmm, paedo and person who advocated slavery are now in the same boat

The principle is the same. Can we just ignoee the bad when it suits us?

Can we just stick to point of the thread rather than links to perverts? Use examples of racism for this would be best.

Slavery was never right, and I don't know if he had slaves himself or just wrote about it, he could have changed his mind when he came home from America and fought to break the chains of English rule here. Either way linking him to Saville is not the same principle ffs

[naka]

For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .

So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Poor taste .

[whitey]

So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

[Chief]

So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front. 

[whitey]

So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

Fair enough....that's what I thought your position was all along

So if the broader community (not just GAA members from other clubs) finds something offensive, I assume they should also be allowed to petition for a change? (Like the person on the Mayo blog a few years ago calling for the crest to be changed as it was exclusionary)

[Chief]

So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

Fair enough....that's what I thought your position was all along

So if the broader community (not just GAA members from other clubs) finds something offensive, I assume they should also be allowed to petition for a change? (Like the person on the Mayo blog a few years ago calling for the crest to be changed as it was exclusionary)

Yup.

The team/club/county/association in question could then make a decision in response to the petition, and accept the risk/rewards of it.

[BennyCake]

For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .

So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Hmm, paedo and person who advocated slavery are now in the same boat

The principle is the same. Can we just ignoee the bad when it suits us?

Can we just stick to point of the thread rather than links to perverts? Use examples of racism for this would be best.

Slavery was never right, and I don't know if he had slaves himself or just wrote about it, he could have changed his mind when he came home from America and fought to break the chains of English rule here. Either way linking him to Saville is not the same principle ffs

It wasn't, but in years to come, people will probably be appalled by their parents/grandparents generation that many people were against same sex marriage, and voted against it in the referendum.

And like I said earlier, if a club is set up now and named after Joe Bloggs, who it turned out, voted against SSM back in 2016 or whenever... will they demand Joe Bloggs' name removed from their club in 2050 as he will likely be looked on as homophobic?