John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?

[sid waddell]

Modern snowflakism and whataboutery.

This isn't an argument in any way. It's just name calling and attempted bulllying of people who dare to voice an opinion you don't like.

This unfortunately is what right-wing "argument" has been reduced to internationally, and sadly, it works, because there are a lot of people out there who are much more into bullying people into submission than in confronting uncomfortable truths.

It's a "might is right" "argument". As a propaganda technique, it's highly imperialist in nature.

[GiveItToTheShooters]

Modern snowflakism and whataboutery.

This isn't an argument in any way. It's just name calling and attempted bulllying of people who dare to voice an opinion you don't like.

This unfortunately is what right-wing "argument" has been reduced to internationally, and sadly, it works, because there are a lot of people out there who are much more into bullying people into submission than in confronting uncomfortable truths.

It's a "might is right" "argument". As a propaganda technique, it's highly imperialist in nature.

You're a snowflake sid

[sid waddell]

Modern snowflakism and whataboutery.

This isn't an argument in any way. It's just name calling and attempted bulllying of people who dare to voice an opinion you don't like.

This unfortunately is what right-wing "argument" has been reduced to internationally, and sadly, it works, because there are a lot of people out there who are much more into bullying people into submission than in confronting uncomfortable truths.

It's a "might is right" "argument". As a propaganda technique, it's highly imperialist in nature.

You're a snowflake sid

See again, you're just proving my point precisely.

This is exactly the sort of technique that Mitchel, as well as those who promoted the British Empire and totalitarian regimes across the globe, engaged in.

[general_lee]

So in short, the GAA is wrong to examine the naming of clubs after a colossal racist because he did his bit for Catholics back in the day?

[whitey]

Didn't Che Guevara and Castro facilitate the torture of gay people and put them into concentration camps.  Michael D should be made retract his glowing tribute He paid  to Castro upon his death and all Che Guevara murals should be painted over

[trueblue1234]

So in short, the GAA is wrong to examine the naming of clubs after a colossal racist because he did his bit for Catholics back in the day?

If my memory is right he wasn't catholic. Presbyterian I think.

[BennyCake]

Didn't Che Guevara and Castro facilitate the torture of gay people and put them into concentration camps.  Michael D should be made retract his glowing tribute He paid  to Castro upon his death and all Che Guevara murals should be painted over

Ah no, does this mean I have to stop wearing my Che Guevara T-shirt?

[macdanger2]

So in short, the GAA is wrong to examine the naming of clubs after a colossal racist because he did his bit for Catholics back in the day?

I wouldn't summarise it exactly in those words (esp. the part about Catholics as noted by trueblue) but given that most people are a mixture of good and bad, something like this is a matter of weighing up the bad and the good and determining which was a more significant part of that person's life.

Mitchell held extremely racists views which were wrong by any measure but as far as I know (and I'm open to correction on this), he wasn't a leading figure in the pro-slavery movement - would American history books on the subject reference anything of his? I think it can be reasonably argued that he was more influential in the course of Irish nationalism and that it made up more of his life than the slavery movement.

Someone earlier mentioned Eoin O'Duffy, he might make a more interesting study - he was a prominent figure in the fight for Irish independence but does his later involvement with fascism completely obliterate his earlier contributions? According to Wiki, the terrace in Clones is named after him

[sid waddell]

Doesn't really matter when they were formed though. You can't change that. The issue is whether, society having evolved for the better in the meantime, such names and symbols are maintained.

But why stop with John Mitchell?

If John Mitchell is fair game, shouldn't every other team and stadium named after a "questionable" character be up for debate too? (I read crazy stuff about Roger Casement being a paedophule but don't know if it was ever proven)

Case by case basis I guess, if that's where it ends up going.

who decides the outcome?

I don't know. I've already explained my position at this point in time.

ask the members of the club it's their club

But what if non club members are better informed and better educated  on the topic than the members?

judging from the John mitchells guys I've met on my travels that's not likely 🙂

John Mitchel's Tralee club member Patrick O'Brien sent a load of online racist abuse to former Arsenal and England player Ian Wright just last month.

The abuse was obviously vile, sickening and criminal - yet O'Brien could legitimately claim, if he so wished, that the person his club is named after would have agreed with his abuse. Because that sort of abuse was precisely what John Mitchel was all about.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0511/1137812-ian-wright-reveals-shocking-online-racist-abuse/

[whitey]

Didn't Che Guevara and Castro facilitate the torture of gay people and put them into concentration camps.  Michael D should be made retract his glowing tribute He paid  to Castro upon his death and all Che Guevara murals should be painted over

Ah no, does this mean I have to stop wearing my Che Guevara T-shirt?

Maybe you could wear a John Mitchell tee shirt instead?

[BennyCake]

Didn't Che Guevara and Castro facilitate the torture of gay people and put them into concentration camps.  Michael D should be made retract his glowing tribute He paid  to Castro upon his death and all Che Guevara murals should be painted over

Ah no, does this mean I have to stop wearing my Che Guevara T-shirt?

Maybe you could wear a John Mitchell tee shirt instead?

Only if he has long flowing locks and wearing a beret.

[NetNitrate]

So in short, the GAA is wrong to examine the naming of clubs after a colossal racist because he did his bit for Catholics back in the day?

I wouldn't summarise it exactly in those words (esp. the part about Catholics as noted by trueblue) but given that most people are a mixture of good and bad, something like this is a matter of weighing up the bad and the good and determining which was a more significant part of that person's life.

Mitchell held extremely racists views which were wrong by any measure but as far as I know (and I'm open to correction on this), he wasn't a leading figure in the pro-slavery movement - would American history books on the subject reference anything of his? I think it can be reasonably argued that he was more influential in the course of Irish nationalism and that it made up more of his life than the slavery movement.

Someone earlier mentioned Eoin O'Duffy, he might make a more interesting study - he was a prominent figure in the fight for Irish independence but does his later involvement with fascism completely obliterate his earlier contributions? According to Wiki, the terrace in Clones is named after him

Eoin O'Duffy is a good example. He was a hero in the Irish War of Independence and Chief of Staff of IRA. But he is remembered as a Blueshirt and you would never see a statue to him, or a GAA club named after him. He comes in for pretty harsh abuse from Shinners on Twitter - probably not knowing he was a Sinn Fein TD, too. If the same rule was followed for the others, they should not be commemorated in anyway. One problem with Thomas Francis Meagher (who was pretty brutal to Native Americans) is that he designed the Irish tri-colour.

[Milltown Row2]

In my opinion, Mitchell's contribution to Irish nationalism independently outweighs his contribution to the Confederacy & slavery

You can't be serious in believing that, can you?

This holds that because the victims of Mitchel's racism and love for slavery were not Irish, or probably more to the point, because his pro-racism and pro-slavery propagandising was not done in the name of the British Empire, we should overlook it.

Incidentally, Irish nationalism in and of itself was never necessarily a force for good. Self-rule was not the point, fair and just government and law was the point, or should have been the point.

The calls for self-rule only existed because Irish people were treated as effectively sub-human by the British, and could never receive fair and just government and law under the British Empire.

Mitchel treated blacks as literally sub-human. Belief in the principles of fairness and justice are universal, or they don't exist at all. Mitchel was categorically not a believer in such. He is not an appropriate person to celebrate via the names of GAA clubs.

If Mitchel had gone to India and been a propagandist for British rule there, if he had propagandised that Indians were sub-human and that it was righteous that they be enslaved by the British, instead of going to America and being a propagandist for racism, slavery and the Confederacy, would he have several GAA clubs named after him?

The answer is no, he would not.

I think he said the slaves were better treated than the Irishman, so if the blacks were subhuman....

[seafoid]

In my opinion, Mitchell's contribution to Irish nationalism independently outweighs his contribution to the Confederacy & slavery

You can't be serious in believing that, can you?

This holds that because the victims of Mitchel's racism and love for slavery were not Irish, or probably more to the point, because his pro-racism and pro-slavery propagandising was not done in the name of the British Empire, we should overlook it.

Incidentally, Irish nationalism in and of itself was never necessarily a force for good. Self-rule was not the point, fair and just government and law was the point, or should have been the point.

The calls for self-rule only existed because Irish people were treated as effectively sub-human by the British, and could never receive fair and just government and law under the British Empire.

Mitchel treated blacks as literally sub-human. Belief in the principles of fairness and justice are universal, or they don't exist at all. Mitchel was categorically not a believer in such. He is not an appropriate person to celebrate via the names of GAA clubs.

If Mitchel had gone to India and been a propagandist for British rule there, if he had propagandised that Indians were sub-human and that it was righteous that they be enslaved by the British, instead of going to America and being a propagandist for racism, slavery and the Confederacy, would he have several GAA clubs named after him?

The answer is no, he would not.

He was a journalist. He didn't own slaves.
Pick someone with GAA connections who actually owned slaves, Sid.

Tsk tsk.

[Gmac]

HBO have pulled gone with the wind off there movie library, tv show cops canceled and live pd gone the book burning has started already too. John mitchels today St whoever tomorrow.