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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: sid waddell on June 09, 2020, 11:20:38 AM

Title: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 09, 2020, 11:20:38 AM
How can GAA clubs continue to honour this man?

To remove his name would not be to "erase history", as is so often and so wrongly used as a defence of the glorification of such awful historical figures.

It would be to recognise history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mitchel

Mitchel claimed that slaves in the southern United States were better cared for and fed than Irish cottiers, or industrial workers in English cities like Manchester. He was explicitly racist, saying negroes were "an innately inferior people"[21] and opining "We deny that it is a crime, or a wrong, or even a peccadillo to hold slaves, to buy slaves, to keep slaves to their work by flogging or other needful correction. We wish we had a good plantation well-stocked with healthy negroes in Alabama."[22][23] In correspondence with his good friend John Kenyon, he stated that he wanted to make the people of the US "proud and fond of [slavery] as a national institution, and advocate its extension by re-opening the trade in Negroes."[24] He claimed that slavery was inherently moral and "good in itself" and stated that he "promotes it for its own sake."[24]

He opposed the emancipation of the Jews, which he considered against the will of God.[25]

In 1857 in Knoxville, Tennessee, he founded a new paper, the Southern Citizen, to promote "the value and virtue of slavery, both for negroes and white men", advocate the reopening of the African slave trade and encourage the spread of slavery into the American West.[21] He moved the paper to Washington in 1859. When the Civil War broke out in 1861 he moved to Richmond, Virginia, the Confederate capital, to edit the powerful Richmond Enquirer.[27] As a spokesman for the cause of the South, he was the first to claim that slavery and abolition were not the cause of the conflict but simply used as a pretence.

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: seafoid on June 09, 2020, 12:47:33 PM
How much money did he make from slavery ?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 09, 2020, 12:53:06 PM
Was thus information not known at the time of clubs formation? Did the clubs just randomly take on these names?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 09, 2020, 01:42:53 PM
Its definitely something that needs to discussed. He is not honoured for his views on/defence of blacks/slavery like all those figures in the southern US, but it is still part of his legacy.

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 09, 2020, 01:48:56 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 09, 2020, 12:47:33 PM
How much money did he make from slavery ?
I don't know. Why does it matter?

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 09, 2020, 12:53:06 PM
Was thus information not known at the time of clubs formation? Did the clubs just randomly take on these names?
I don't know. Why does it matter?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: grounded on June 09, 2020, 02:05:49 PM
One flaw with this, and it is Whataboutery!
         I would say many, if not most of the founding members of the GAA would hold many views that would be very controversial/unacceptable according to todays standards.
          Who decides?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 02:10:22 PM
I also think that any GAA club (or Pitch) named after current of former members of the IRA should be renamed as a token of goodwill toward our neighbors on the other side of the divide
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Rossfan on June 09, 2020, 02:11:13 PM
At least we stopped naming clubs after Boer generals......
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: armaghniac on June 09, 2020, 02:15:25 PM
The club named after him in Newry isn't much use anyway.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Rossfan on June 09, 2020, 02:18:16 PM
Could be a good time to get into the statue toppling business

https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2020/0609/1146337-monuments-galway/
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 09, 2020, 02:34:49 PM
Quote from: grounded on June 09, 2020, 02:05:49 PM
One flaw with this, and it is Whataboutery!
         I would say many, if not most of the founding members of the GAA would hold many views that would be very controversial/unacceptable according to todays standards.
          Who decides?

Yes, judging past figures by the standard of the present is always problematic. But in Mitchel's case there are explicit writings and pronouncements on the subject, even if he is honoured for his role in the Irish struggle against the British.

This is obviously something that is going to be a big issue across the western world. In some cases, statues will come down and places be renamed. In others, supplemental or revised descriptions/explanations might be sufficient.

Obviously something that is going to demand a lot of discussion.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: general_lee on June 09, 2020, 02:55:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 02:10:22 PM
I also think that any GAA club (or Pitch) named after current of former members of the IRA should be renamed as a token of goodwill toward our neighbors on the other side of the divide
Just out of curiosity how many grounds would this be? Does it apply pre-1969?
As for competitions, how many overall have offending names?
Grounds I can think of off the top of my head - Dromintee, St Teresa's?, one in Fermanagh. Any more?
Competitions - Derry intermediate? Joe Cahill u12? Any others?
Clubs? 
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:04:02 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 09, 2020, 02:55:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 02:10:22 PM
I also think that any GAA club (or Pitch) named after current of former members of the IRA should be renamed as a token of goodwill toward our neighbors on the other side of the divide
Just out of curiosity how many grounds would this be? Does it apply pre-1969?
As for competitions, how many overall have offending names?
Grounds I can think of off the top of my head - Dromintee, St Teresa's?, one in Fermanagh. Any more?
Competitions - Derry intermediate? Joe Cahill u12? Any others?
Clubs?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/naming-of-clubs-after-fanatics-shouldn-t-be-tolerated-by-the-gaa-1.1575008

I don't think any club or ground should be named in memory of a person in case people are offended by something that person said or did in the past

Let's just call all clubs by the name of the town
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: general_lee on June 09, 2020, 03:15:06 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:04:02 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 09, 2020, 02:55:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 02:10:22 PM
I also think that any GAA club (or Pitch) named after current of former members of the IRA should be renamed as a token of goodwill toward our neighbors on the other side of the divide
Just out of curiosity how many grounds would this be? Does it apply pre-1969?
As for competitions, how many overall have offending names?
Grounds I can think of off the top of my head - Dromintee, St Teresa's?, one in Fermanagh. Any more?
Competitions - Derry intermediate? Joe Cahill u12? Any others?
Clubs?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/naming-of-clubs-after-fanatics-shouldn-t-be-tolerated-by-the-gaa-1.1575008

I don't think any club or ground should be named in memory of a person in case people are offended by something that person said or did in the past

Let's just call all clubs by the name of the town

That's a really shitty and disingenuous article. Not that I'm necessarily against changing the rules around naming clubs, I just wonder where the buck stops? Also many towns numerous clubs.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:20:40 PM
I was just pointing out that if we go down this road......where does it stop?

On the Mayo blog a few years ago someone  suggested that Dia is Muire Lin should be removed from the crest as it was exclusionary to those of other faiths and no faith
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:23:20 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 09, 2020, 03:09:38 PM
St. Teresa offends me.

Exactly, I can see how non Catholics/Christians would feel excluded by a club being called after a Catholic Saint
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 09, 2020, 03:35:35 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:20:40 PM
I was just pointing out that if we go down this road......where does it stop?

On the Mayo blog a few years ago someone  suggested that Dia is Muire Lin should be removed from the crest as it was exclusionary to those of other faiths and no faith

So because of the slippery slope, we shouldn't reevaluate ANY names being honoured?

(Not being antagonistic BTW - its obviously a pertinent point)
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:43:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 03:35:35 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:20:40 PM
I was just pointing out that if we go down this road......where does it stop?

On the Mayo blog a few years ago someone  suggested that Dia is Muire Lin should be removed from the crest as it was exclusionary to those of other faiths and no faith

So because of the slippery slope, we shouldn't reevaluate ANY names being honoured?

Who said that?

My question is where does it stop, or in fact does it stop?

So let's put every club and pitch name out there and if even one person feels offended or excluded let's change the name to something generic  and be done with it
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Taylor on June 09, 2020, 03:53:19 PM
This is something I have been thinking about recently.

How many people has to be offended by something before we take action?

Now BLM/slaves is all straightforward is that it is abhorrent but when someone else brings up something, who takes decisions on what is offensive and what is historical etc?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: nrico2006 on June 09, 2020, 04:02:37 PM
You could go all day with this. Did slaves not build the Pyramids - should they be knocked down?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 09, 2020, 04:10:00 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:43:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 03:35:35 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:20:40 PM
I was just pointing out that if we go down this road......where does it stop?

On the Mayo blog a few years ago someone  suggested that Dia is Muire Lin should be removed from the crest as it was exclusionary to those of other faiths and no faith

So because of the slippery slope, we shouldn't reevaluate ANY names being honoured?

Who said that?

My question is where does it stop, or in fact does it stop?

So let's put every club and pitch name out there and if even one person feels offended or excluded let's change the name to something generic  and be done with it

Obviously that is something that needs to be discussed... without the histrionics of your last sentence.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 04:14:12 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 09, 2020, 03:53:19 PM
This is something I have been thinking about recently.

How many people has to be offended by something before we take action?

Now BLM/slaves is all straightforward is that it is abhorrent but when someone else brings up something, who takes decisions on what is offensive and what is historical etc?

So Thomas Francis Meagher, a hero of the Union army During the American Civil War fighting to defeat slavery

After the civil war he went out to Montana where he (supposedly) mistreated the Native Americans and put down an insurrection

Do we pull down all monuments to him too?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 04:15:57 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 04:10:00 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:43:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 03:35:35 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:20:40 PM
I was just pointing out that if we go down this road......where does it stop?

On the Mayo blog a few years ago someone  suggested that Dia is Muire Lin should be removed from the crest as it was exclusionary to those of other faiths and no faith

So because of the slippery slope, we shouldn't reevaluate ANY names being honoured?

Who said that?

My question is where does it stop, or in fact does it stop?

So let's put every club and pitch name out there and if even one person feels offended or excluded let's change the name to something generic  and be done with it

Obviously that is something that needs to be discussed... without the histrionics of your last sentence.

No J70....you can't pick and choose. People are either offended or they're not
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 09, 2020, 04:29:52 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 04:15:57 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 04:10:00 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:43:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 03:35:35 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:20:40 PM
I was just pointing out that if we go down this road......where does it stop?

On the Mayo blog a few years ago someone  suggested that Dia is Muire Lin should be removed from the crest as it was exclusionary to those of other faiths and no faith

So because of the slippery slope, we shouldn't reevaluate ANY names being honoured?

Who said that?

My question is where does it stop, or in fact does it stop?

So let's put every club and pitch name out there and if even one person feels offended or excluded let's change the name to something generic  and be done with it

Obviously that is something that needs to be discussed... without the histrionics of your last sentence.

No J70....you can't pick and choose. People are either offended or they're not

Who said anything about picking and choosing?

I'm talking about a mature, informed, serious discussion of these issues.

Throwing your toys out of the pram in advance by saying " if even one person feels offended or excluded let's change the name to something generic  and be done with it" is helpful to no one.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 09, 2020, 04:44:57 PM
Sure didn't the story go that St Patrick while up on Slemish, tending to sheep I presume, was so hungry he ate their food. What an utter bollix! . Time to get rid of all the St Patrick's clubs. And strip him of the title of patron saint of Ireland.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 04:50:15 PM
J70...if you point a finger, you have 3 pointing back at yourself

Actually, Castlebar Mitchels had an expert come in and speak about John Mitchell.

I wonder if there were any ructions at the event

http://www.castlebarmitchels.com/news_detail/10054098/
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 09, 2020, 05:03:28 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 04:50:15 PM
J70...if you point a finger, you have 3 pointing back at yourself

Actually, Castlebar Mitchels had an expert come in and speak about John Mitchell.

I wonder if there were any ructions at the event

http://www.castlebarmitchels.com/news_detail/10054098/

So talking about having a discussion of whether we should continue to honour controversial figures from the past is actually a reflection of... what, exactly?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Taylor on June 09, 2020, 05:20:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 04:14:12 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 09, 2020, 03:53:19 PM
This is something I have been thinking about recently.

How many people has to be offended by something before we take action?

Now BLM/slaves is all straightforward is that it is abhorrent but when someone else brings up something, who takes decisions on what is offensive and what is historical etc?

So Thomas Francis Meagher, a hero of the Union army During the American Civil War fighting to defeat slavery

After the civil war he went out to Montana where he (supposedly) mistreated the Native Americans and put down an insurrection

Do we pull down all monuments to him too?

Well thats the thing - if Native Americans had an issue then why wouldnt we?

We cannot base it on whoever makes the most noise/does the most damage to society & infrastructure having their way or is that the way it should be done?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on June 09, 2020, 05:38:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 03:20:40 PM
I was just pointing out that if we go down this road......where does it stop?

On the Mayo blog a few years ago someone  suggested that Dia is Muire Lin should be removed from the crest as it was exclusionary to those of other faiths and no faith

I know quiet a few Trotsky sinn Féiners who refuse to say Dia Duit when speaking Irish. But happy enough to say goodbye. Arseholes, will destroy the country
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 05:48:20 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 09, 2020, 05:20:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 04:14:12 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 09, 2020, 03:53:19 PM
This is something I have been thinking about recently.

How many people has to be offended by something before we take action?

Now BLM/slaves is all straightforward is that it is abhorrent but when someone else brings up something, who takes decisions on what is offensive and what is historical etc?

So Thomas Francis Meagher, a hero of the Union army During the American Civil War fighting to defeat slavery

After the civil war he went out to Montana where he (supposedly) mistreated the Native Americans and put down an insurrection

Do we pull down all monuments to him too?

Well thats the thing - if Native Americans had an issue then why wouldnt we?

We cannot base it on whoever makes the most noise/does the most damage to society & infrastructure having their way or is that the way it should be done?

History is complicated and many famous figures cannot be viewed through just one lens
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 09, 2020, 06:54:21 PM
The exact nonsense right-wing cliches I expected, ie, "where does it stop?", the dumb whataboutery and deflection, have been trotted out here ad nauseum.

We've even had it argued that if GAA clubs were no longer named after John Mitchel, the pyramids of Egypt would then have to be knocked down.

Like, where do you even start with that sort of stuff.

What we haven't had yet is any sort of a serious argument as to why GAA clubs should continue to be named after a vile propagandist for racism and slavery.



Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 06:59:57 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 09, 2020, 06:54:21 PM
The exact nonsense right-wing cliches I expected, ie, "where does it stop?", the dumb whataboutery and deflection, have been trotted out here ad nauseum.

We've even had it argued that if GAA clubs were no longer named after John Mitchel, the pyramids of Egypt would then have to be knocked down.

Like, where do you even start with that sort of stuff.

What we haven't had yet is any sort of a serious argument as to why GAA clubs should continue to be named after a vile propagandist for racism and slavery.

So if a unionist in the North objected to a team or a ground being named after a Republican, should the name be changed? Yes or no?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 09, 2020, 07:05:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 06:59:57 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 09, 2020, 06:54:21 PM
The exact nonsense right-wing cliches I expected, ie, "where does it stop?", the dumb whataboutery and deflection, have been trotted out here ad nauseum.

We've even had it argued that if GAA clubs were no longer named after John Mitchel, the pyramids of Egypt would then have to be knocked down.

Like, where do you even start with that sort of stuff.

What we haven't had yet is any sort of a serious argument as to why GAA clubs should continue to be named after a vile propagandist for racism and slavery.

So if a unionist in the North objected to a team or a ground being named after a Republican, should the name be changed? Yes or no?
This thread is for the likes of you to try and come up with a decent argument as to why GAA clubs should be named after a propagandist for racism and slavery.

So far, you haven't come remotely close to coming up with one.

Whataboutery is not an argument.

If you want to start a thread about the above scenario you mention, by all means do so, and I'll be happy to contribute.

This is a thread about John Mitchel.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 09, 2020, 07:12:07 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 06:59:57 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 09, 2020, 06:54:21 PM
The exact nonsense right-wing cliches I expected, ie, "where does it stop?", the dumb whataboutery and deflection, have been trotted out here ad nauseum.

We've even had it argued that if GAA clubs were no longer named after John Mitchel, the pyramids of Egypt would then have to be knocked down.

Like, where do you even start with that sort of stuff.

What we haven't had yet is any sort of a serious argument as to why GAA clubs should continue to be named after a vile propagandist for racism and slavery.

So if a unionist in the North objected to a team or a ground being named after a Republican, should the name be changed? Yes or no?

That is obviously something that various unionists have raised over the years about the GAA. No one gave a shit because the unionists were never going to join or show much of an interest in GAA anyway. And its not like they don't have plenty of skeletons in their own closet, between institutional sectarianism, loyalist paramilitaries and various sectarian fraternal orders.

The debate here is whether WE, as members of the GAA community, should be looking at this issue.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 07:28:18 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 09, 2020, 07:05:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 06:59:57 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 09, 2020, 06:54:21 PM
The exact nonsense right-wing cliches I expected, ie, "where does it stop?", the dumb whataboutery and deflection, have been trotted out here ad nauseum.

We've even had it argued that if GAA clubs were no longer named after John Mitchel, the pyramids of Egypt would then have to be knocked down.

Like, where do you even start with that sort of stuff.

What we haven't had yet is any sort of a serious argument as to why GAA clubs should continue to be named after a vile propagandist for racism and slavery.

So if a unionist in the North objected to a team or a ground being named after a Republican, should the name be changed? Yes or no?
This thread is for the likes of you to try and come up with a decent argument as to why GAA clubs should be named after a propagandist for racism and slavery.

So far, you haven't come remotely close to coming up with one.

Whataboutery is not an argument.

If you want to start a thread about the above scenario you mention, by all means do so, and I'll be happy to contribute.

This is a thread about John Mitchel.

Well what if I'm not offended by John Mitchell, but I am offended by a Hurling Club in Co Derry named after an INLA member and hunger striker?


Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 07:32:55 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 07:12:07 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 06:59:57 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 09, 2020, 06:54:21 PM
The exact nonsense right-wing cliches I expected, ie, "where does it stop?", the dumb whataboutery and deflection, have been trotted out here ad nauseum.

We've even had it argued that if GAA clubs were no longer named after John Mitchel, the pyramids of Egypt would then have to be knocked down.

Like, where do you even start with that sort of stuff.

What we haven't had yet is any sort of a serious argument as to why GAA clubs should continue to be named after a vile propagandist for racism and slavery.

So if a unionist in the North objected to a team or a ground being named after a Republican, should the name be changed? Yes or no?

That is obviously something that various unionists have raised over the years about the GAA. No one gave a shit because the unionists were never going to join or show much of an interest in GAA anyway. And its not like they don't have plenty of skeletons in their own closet, between institutional sectarianism, loyalist paramilitaries and various sectarian fraternal orders.

The debate here is whether WE, as members of the GAA community, should be looking at this issue.

So do you think this is an issue for the members of the "offending" club to address or do you think that people who dont belong to the club club should also have a say?

What if the club holds a vote, and the members vote to retain their name?  Do you respect their wishes?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Gaagaagaa20 on June 09, 2020, 07:34:29 PM
John Mitchel must be judged in the context of his contribution to the people of Ireland and his contribution to the cause of Irish Freedom, a man who helped aid the plight of Irish Catholic's and unite them with their Protestant countrymen and neighbours. A man who influence Padraic Pearse it's on this contribution he ought to be judged and not his politics in another country which he had little influence in. While no doubt his support of slavery was wrong it must be judged through the prism and experiences Mitchel himself witnessed in his own life. Acknowledge John Mitchel wasn't perfect but remember John Mitchel the Republican and Patriot who contributed and sacrificed for Ireland
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 09, 2020, 07:46:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 07:32:55 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 07:12:07 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 06:59:57 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 09, 2020, 06:54:21 PM
The exact nonsense right-wing cliches I expected, ie, "where does it stop?", the dumb whataboutery and deflection, have been trotted out here ad nauseum.

We've even had it argued that if GAA clubs were no longer named after John Mitchel, the pyramids of Egypt would then have to be knocked down.

Like, where do you even start with that sort of stuff.

What we haven't had yet is any sort of a serious argument as to why GAA clubs should continue to be named after a vile propagandist for racism and slavery.

So if a unionist in the North objected to a team or a ground being named after a Republican, should the name be changed? Yes or no?

That is obviously something that various unionists have raised over the years about the GAA. No one gave a shit because the unionists were never going to join or show much of an interest in GAA anyway. And its not like they don't have plenty of skeletons in their own closet, between institutional sectarianism, loyalist paramilitaries and various sectarian fraternal orders.

The debate here is whether WE, as members of the GAA community, should be looking at this issue.

So do you think this is an issue for the members of the "offending" club to address or do you think that people who dont belong to the club club should also have a say?

What if the club holds a vote, and the members vote to retain their name?  Do you respect their wishes?

I don't know.

This is not an issue where a satisfactory decision can be reached based on a single morning of debate on the gaaboard.

IF I was a club member, I would hope it would be something that would be seriously debated.

But, the wider GAA is also entitled to an opinion. Beyond that, again, I don't know.

I do know that I would not think twice about refusing to let my kids join a club named after Jefferson Davis or Nathan Bedford Forrest or PW Botha. How that extends to controversial GAA names I haven't thought through.

Which I guess is my point.

Would a new club forming today use Mitchel's name?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 09, 2020, 07:56:24 PM
Was this not common knowledge at the time when these clubs were formed?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: RedHand88 on June 09, 2020, 08:01:08 PM
Quote from: Gaagaagaa20 on June 09, 2020, 07:36:04 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 07:32:55 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 07:12:07 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 06:59:57 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 09, 2020, 06:54:21 PM
The exact nonsense right-wing cliches I expected, ie, "where does it stop?", the dumb whataboutery and deflection, have been trotted out here ad nauseum.

We've even had it argued that if GAA clubs were no longer named after John Mitchel, the pyramids of Egypt would then have to be knocked down.

Like, where do you even start with that sort of stuff.

What we haven't had yet is any sort of a serious argument as to why GAA clubs should continue to be named after a vile propagandist for racism and slavery.

So if a unionist in the North objected to a team or a ground being named after a Republican, should the name be changed? Yes or no?

That is obviously something that various unionists have raised over the years about the GAA. No one gave a shit because the unionists were never going to join or show much of an interest in GAA anyway. And its not like they don't have plenty of skeletons in their own closet, between institutional sectarianism, loyalist paramilitaries and various sectarian fraternal orders.

The debate here is whether WE, as members of the GAA community, should be looking at this issue.

So do you think this is an issue for the members of the "offending" club to address or do you think that people who dont belong to the club club should also have a say?

What if the club holds a vote, and the members vote to retain their name?  Do you respect their wishes?
What GAA clubs name themselves after is the business of the members of that club and no one else be it Saint, Patriot or Patron

What if there was a Harold Shipman GAC?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 08:02:51 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 09, 2020, 07:56:24 PM
Was this not common knowledge at the time when these clubs were formed?

Some of these clubs were formed in the 1880s and were heavily involved in Ireland's fight for Independence. I doubt too many of the founding members were doing a deep dive on his life story
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 09, 2020, 08:12:58 PM
Hated Jews as well it seems. If these clubs were formed in the 1880's they rushed into that one lol!
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: naka on June 09, 2020, 08:19:54 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 09, 2020, 02:15:25 PM
The club named after him in Newry isn't much use anyway.
Last newry team to win the down senior championship.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Rossfan on June 09, 2020, 08:20:35 PM
White "Christian' Europeans n the 19th Century generally felt superior to negroes*  and didnt like Jews.

*A bit ironic when you consider Africans are 100% Homo sapiens while Europeans have Neanderthal DNA mixed in with hs.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:21:54 PM
Doesn't really matter when they were formed though. You can't change that. The issue is whether, society having evolved for the better in the meantime, such names and symbols are maintained.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 08:31:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:21:54 PM
Doesn't really matter when they were formed though. You can't change that. The issue is whether, society having evolved for the better in the meantime, such names and symbols are maintained.

But why stop with John Mitchell?

If John Mitchell is fair game, shouldn't every other team and stadium named after a "questionable" character be up for debate too? (I read crazy stuff about Roger Casement being a paedophule but don't know if it was ever proven)
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:48:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 08:31:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:21:54 PM
Doesn't really matter when they were formed though. You can't change that. The issue is whether, society having evolved for the better in the meantime, such names and symbols are maintained.

But why stop with John Mitchell?

If John Mitchell is fair game, shouldn't every other team and stadium named after a "questionable" character be up for debate too? (I read crazy stuff about Roger Casement being a paedophule but don't know if it was ever proven)

Case by case basis I guess, if that's where it ends up going.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 09:07:10 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:48:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 08:31:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:21:54 PM
Doesn't really matter when they were formed though. You can't change that. The issue is whether, society having evolved for the better in the meantime, such names and symbols are maintained.

But why stop with John Mitchell?

If John Mitchell is fair game, shouldn't every other team and stadium named after a "questionable" character be up for debate too? (I read crazy stuff about Roger Casement being a paedophule but don't know if it was ever proven)

Case by case basis I guess, if that's where it ends up going.
who decides the outcome?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 09, 2020, 09:14:37 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 09:07:10 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:48:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 08:31:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:21:54 PM
Doesn't really matter when they were formed though. You can't change that. The issue is whether, society having evolved for the better in the meantime, such names and symbols are maintained.

But why stop with John Mitchell?

If John Mitchell is fair game, shouldn't every other team and stadium named after a "questionable" character be up for debate too? (I read crazy stuff about Roger Casement being a paedophule but don't know if it was ever proven)

Case by case basis I guess, if that's where it ends up going.
who decides the outcome?

I don't know. I've already explained my position at this point in time.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 09, 2020, 09:21:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 08:31:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:21:54 PM
Doesn't really matter when they were formed though. You can't change that. The issue is whether, society having evolved for the better in the meantime, such names and symbols are maintained.

But why stop with John Mitchell?

If John Mitchell is fair game, shouldn't every other team and stadium named after a "questionable" character be up for debate too? (I read crazy stuff about Roger Casement being a paedophule but don't know if it was ever proven)

Jumping from pay for sex with young men, to paedo is a bit of a stretch. Plenty paid for sex with young women in those days no doubt. Still do I hear!

Another take on the black diary's

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2016/sep/28/roger-casement-gay-irish-martyr-or-victim-of-a-british-forgery
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 09:21:53 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 09:14:37 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 09:07:10 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:48:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 08:31:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:21:54 PM
Doesn't really matter when they were formed though. You can't change that. The issue is whether, society having evolved for the better in the meantime, such names and symbols are maintained.

But why stop with John Mitchell?

If John Mitchell is fair game, shouldn't every other team and stadium named after a "questionable" character be up for debate too? (I read crazy stuff about Roger Casement being a paedophule but don't know if it was ever proven)

Case by case basis I guess, if that's where it ends up going.
who decides the outcome?

I don't know. I've already explained my position at this point in time.
ask the members of the club it's their club
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 09:24:47 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 09:21:53 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 09:14:37 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 09:07:10 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:48:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 08:31:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:21:54 PM
Doesn't really matter when they were formed though. You can't change that. The issue is whether, society having evolved for the better in the meantime, such names and symbols are maintained.

But why stop with John Mitchell?

If John Mitchell is fair game, shouldn't every other team and stadium named after a "questionable" character be up for debate too? (I read crazy stuff about Roger Casement being a paedophule but don't know if it was ever proven)

Case by case basis I guess, if that's where it ends up going.
who decides the outcome?

I don't know. I've already explained my position at this point in time.
ask the members of the club it's their club

But what if non club members are better informed and better educated  on the topic than the members?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 09:29:05 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 09:24:47 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 09:21:53 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 09:14:37 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 09:07:10 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:48:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 08:31:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:21:54 PM
Doesn't really matter when they were formed though. You can't change that. The issue is whether, society having evolved for the better in the meantime, such names and symbols are maintained.

But why stop with John Mitchell?

If John Mitchell is fair game, shouldn't every other team and stadium named after a "questionable" character be up for debate too? (I read crazy stuff about Roger Casement being a paedophule but don't know if it was ever proven)

Case by case basis I guess, if that's where it ends up going.
who decides the outcome?

I don't know. I've already explained my position at this point in time.
ask the members of the club it's their club

But what if non club members are better informed and better educated  on the topic than the members?
judging from the John mitchells guys I've met on my travels that's not likely 🙂
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: omaghjoe on June 09, 2020, 09:36:10 PM
Couldn't they just say they are named after Joni instead of John? ???
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 09, 2020, 09:44:44 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 09, 2020, 09:36:10 PM
Couldn't they just say they are named after Joni instead of John? ???

Or Frank. Keep it local
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2020, 09:50:03 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 09, 2020, 09:44:44 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 09, 2020, 09:36:10 PM
Couldn't they just say they are named after Joni instead of John? ???

Or Frank. Keep it local

Haha-or Phil from Eastenders
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Ball Hopper on June 09, 2020, 09:57:33 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 09:50:03 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 09, 2020, 09:44:44 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 09, 2020, 09:36:10 PM
Couldn't they just say they are named after Joni instead of John? ???

Or Frank. Keep it local

Haha-or Phil from Eastenders

Or Charles from RTE back in the day...
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 10:11:19 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 09, 2020, 09:57:33 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 09:50:03 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 09, 2020, 09:44:44 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 09, 2020, 09:36:10 PM
Couldn't they just say they are named after Joni instead of John? ???

Or Frank. Keep it local

Haha-or Phil from Eastenders

Or Charles from RTE back in the day...
surprised there's not a George Mitchell's somewhere
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: omaghjoe on June 09, 2020, 10:22:54 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 10:11:19 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 09, 2020, 09:57:33 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 09:50:03 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 09, 2020, 09:44:44 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 09, 2020, 09:36:10 PM
Couldn't they just say they are named after Joni instead of John? ???

Or Frank. Keep it local

Haha-or Phil from Eastenders

Or Charles from RTE back in the day...
surprised there's not a George Mitchell's somewhere

Careful now... allegations there too
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on June 09, 2020, 10:27:20 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 09, 2020, 10:22:54 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 10:11:19 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 09, 2020, 09:57:33 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 09:50:03 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 09, 2020, 09:44:44 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 09, 2020, 09:36:10 PM
Couldn't they just say they are named after Joni instead of John? ???

Or Frank. Keep it local

Haha-or Phil from Eastenders

Or Charles from RTE back in the day...
surprised there's not a George Mitchell's somewhere

Careful now... allegations there too

Think he's holed up in a bunker somewhere!
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Farrandeelin on June 09, 2020, 10:37:17 PM
MacHale Park should be renamed too, if we're going to include all faiths and none.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 09, 2020, 10:48:33 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 10:11:19 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 09, 2020, 09:57:33 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 09:50:03 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 09, 2020, 09:44:44 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 09, 2020, 09:36:10 PM
Couldn't they just say they are named after Joni instead of John? ???

Or Frank. Keep it local

Haha-or Phil from Eastenders

Or Charles from RTE back in the day...
surprised there's not a George Mitchell's somewhere

You couldn't get any more neutral than him!
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Rossfan on June 10, 2020, 12:12:21 PM
I see Leo wants the statue of "Nazi collaborator" Seán Russell removed in Dublin.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Eire90 on June 10, 2020, 12:59:27 PM
where does it end we are going down a dangerous road here people will gaa have to removed all religious names will all religious statues have to removed
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: naka on June 10, 2020, 01:00:16 PM
Quote from: Gaagaagaa20 on June 09, 2020, 07:34:29 PM
John Mitchel must be judged in the context of his contribution to the people of Ireland and his contribution to the cause of Irish Freedom, a man who helped aid the plight of Irish Catholic's and unite them with their Protestant countrymen and neighbours. A man who influence Padraic Pearse it's on this contribution he ought to be judged and not his politics in another country which he had little influence in. While no doubt his support of slavery was wrong it must be judged through the prism and experiences Mitchel himself witnessed in his own life. Acknowledge John Mitchel wasn't perfect but remember John Mitchel the Republican and Patriot who contributed and sacrificed for Ireland
Actually think this sums up my view on the subject.
Do we pull down all statues  which don-t suit our 21st century view, it is so wrong that we think we are so much better than our predecessors when I look at the hunger, racism and strife in the world


Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 01:18:29 PM
I think it's wrong to equate John Mitchell with Edward Colston - Colston's good deeds were possible solely because of his involvement in the slave trade so those good deeds were in effect tainted by that association. John Mitchell can be remembered for his contribution to Irish nationalism independently of his stance on slavery.

On the other hand, I think most people in Ireland would consider that John Mitchell's views on slavery were outright wrong and offensive in an objective way, I don't see any way in which they could be condoned. However, I don't think this can be equated with someone being "offended" by a club being named after a saint for example - typically, any "offence" that might arise from such a name would be subjective rather than objective which is an important distinction imo.

In my opinion, Mitchell's contribution to Irish nationalism independently outweighs his contribution to the Confederacy & slavery so I wouldn't be in favour of the GAA as a whole requiring these clubs to change their names. I think though that it would be worthwhile for the clubs to discuss the matter internally with particular respect to the views of members with non-Irish heritage to get their views
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on June 10, 2020, 01:42:28 PM
Modern snowflakism and whataboutery. Did people not think and do their research about naming after these people at the time or is it just acceptable to jump on the bandwagon now and start removing statues and the likes of dubious characters.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on June 10, 2020, 01:45:20 PM
Apparently it's unacceptable to deface a statue of Churchill but it's perfectly acceptable to remove the ones of the other racists and slave traders
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 10, 2020, 01:55:21 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on June 10, 2020, 01:42:28 PM
Modern snowflakism and whataboutery. Did people not think and do their research about naming after these people at the time or is it just acceptable to jump on the bandwagon now and start removing statues and the likes of dubious characters.

You don't get that cultural and societal standards and mores evolve?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: johnnycool on June 10, 2020, 01:57:26 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 09, 2020, 09:01:13 PM
Can I ask for anything related to Eoin O'Duffy to be fcuked out please?

seconded.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 10, 2020, 01:58:31 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 01:18:29 PM
I think it's wrong to equate John Mitchell with Edward Colston - Colston's good deeds were possible solely because of his involvement in the slave trade so those good deeds were in effect tainted by that association. John Mitchell can be remembered for his contribution to Irish nationalism independently of his stance on slavery.

On the other hand, I think most people in Ireland would consider that John Mitchell's views on slavery were outright wrong and offensive in an objective way, I don't see any way in which they could be condoned. However, I don't think this can be equated with someone being "offended" by a club being named after a saint for example - typically, any "offence" that might arise from such a name would be subjective rather than objective which is an important distinction imo.

In my opinion, Mitchell's contribution to Irish nationalism independently outweighs his contribution to the Confederacy & slavery so I wouldn't be in favour of the GAA as a whole requiring these clubs to change their names. I think though that it would be worthwhile for the clubs to discuss the matter internally with particular respect to the views of members with non-Irish heritage to get their views

Good post. Personally, I think it is absolutely a matter for the wider GAA, but reasonable people can disagree.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 10, 2020, 02:06:39 PM
A few years ago on Willie Joes blog someone recommended changing the Mayo Crest to be more open and welcoming to some of our new citizens.   It was an interesting question....to a Muslim or a non Catholic is Dia is Muire linn offensive and exclusionary?  What about a club named after a Saint? 

I agree with J70 to an extent about the need for dialogue, but I disagree that it's a question for the wider community......leave it up to the clubs and their members to decide and Let them use it as an opportunity to have broader discussions around racism and exclusion

Gaelic Games are part of our national identity.....is that an element we want to retain, or in the interests of political correctness, dispatch to the dustbin?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on June 10, 2020, 02:09:22 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 01:18:29 PM
I think it's wrong to equate John Mitchell with Edward Colston - Colston's good deeds were possible solely because of his involvement in the slave trade so those good deeds were in effect tainted by that association. John Mitchell can be remembered for his contribution to Irish nationalism independently of his stance on slavery.

On the other hand, I think most people in Ireland would consider that John Mitchell's views on slavery were outright wrong and offensive in an objective way, I don't see any way in which they could be condoned. However, I don't think this can be equated with someone being "offended" by a club being named after a saint for example - typically, any "offence" that might arise from such a name would be subjective rather than objective which is an important distinction imo.

In my opinion, Mitchell's contribution to Irish nationalism independently outweighs his contribution to the Confederacy & slavery so I wouldn't be in favour of the GAA as a whole requiring these clubs to change their names. I think though that it would be worthwhile for the clubs to discuss the matter internally with particular respect to the views of members with non-Irish heritage to get their views
Hit the nail on the head.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 10, 2020, 02:24:54 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 01:18:29 PM
In my opinion, Mitchell's contribution to Irish nationalism independently outweighs his contribution to the Confederacy & slavery
You can't be serious in believing that, can you?

This holds that because the victims of Mitchel's racism and love for slavery were not Irish, or probably more to the point, because his pro-racism and pro-slavery propagandising was not done in the name of the British Empire, we should overlook it.

Incidentally, Irish nationalism in and of itself was never necessarily a force for good. Self-rule was not the point, fair and just government and law was the point, or should have been the point.

The calls for self-rule only existed because Irish people were treated as effectively sub-human by the British, and could never receive fair and just government and law under the British Empire.

Mitchel treated blacks as literally sub-human. Belief in the principles of fairness and justice are universal, or they don't exist at all. Mitchel was categorically not a believer in such. He is not an appropriate person to celebrate via the names of GAA clubs.

If Mitchel had gone to India and been a propagandist for British rule there, if he had propagandised that Indians were sub-human and that it was righteous that they be enslaved by the British, instead of going to America and being a propagandist for racism, slavery and the Confederacy, would he have several GAA clubs named after him?

The answer is no, he would not.


Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 10, 2020, 02:30:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 10, 2020, 12:12:21 PM
I see Leo wants the statue of "Nazi collaborator" Seán Russell removed in Dublin.
He's right too.

Which is quite rare.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 10, 2020, 02:36:05 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on June 10, 2020, 01:42:28 PM
Modern snowflakism and whataboutery.
This isn't an argument in any way. It's just name calling and attempted bulllying of people who dare to voice an opinion you don't like.

This unfortunately is what right-wing "argument" has been reduced to internationally, and sadly, it works, because there are a lot of people out there who are much more into bullying people into submission than in confronting uncomfortable truths.

It's a "might is right" "argument". As a propaganda technique, it's highly imperialist in nature.

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on June 10, 2020, 02:37:09 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 10, 2020, 02:36:05 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on June 10, 2020, 01:42:28 PM
Modern snowflakism and whataboutery.
This isn't an argument in any way. It's just name calling and attempted bulllying of people who dare to voice an opinion you don't like.

This unfortunately is what right-wing "argument" has been reduced to internationally, and sadly, it works, because there are a lot of people out there who are much more into bullying people into submission than in confronting uncomfortable truths.

It's a "might is right" "argument". As a propaganda technique, it's highly imperialist in nature.
You're a snowflake sid
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 10, 2020, 02:39:40 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on June 10, 2020, 02:37:09 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 10, 2020, 02:36:05 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on June 10, 2020, 01:42:28 PM
Modern snowflakism and whataboutery.
This isn't an argument in any way. It's just name calling and attempted bulllying of people who dare to voice an opinion you don't like.

This unfortunately is what right-wing "argument" has been reduced to internationally, and sadly, it works, because there are a lot of people out there who are much more into bullying people into submission than in confronting uncomfortable truths.

It's a "might is right" "argument". As a propaganda technique, it's highly imperialist in nature.
You're a snowflake sid
See again, you're just proving my point precisely.

This is exactly the sort of technique that Mitchel, as well as those who promoted the British Empire and totalitarian regimes across the globe, engaged in.

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 02:43:47 PM
So in short, the GAA is wrong to examine the naming of clubs after a colossal racist because he did his bit for Catholics back in the day?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 10, 2020, 02:48:26 PM
Didn't Che Guevara and Castro facilitate the torture of gay people and put them into concentration camps.  Michael D should be made retract his glowing tribute He paid  to Castro upon his death and all Che Guevara murals should be painted over
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: trueblue1234 on June 10, 2020, 03:00:49 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 02:43:47 PM
So in short, the GAA is wrong to examine the naming of clubs after a colossal racist because he did his bit for Catholics back in the day?

If my memory is right he wasn't catholic. Presbyterian I think.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 10, 2020, 03:07:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 02:48:26 PM
Didn't Che Guevara and Castro facilitate the torture of gay people and put them into concentration camps.  Michael D should be made retract his glowing tribute He paid  to Castro upon his death and all Che Guevara murals should be painted over

Ah no, does this mean I have to stop wearing my Che Guevara T-shirt?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 03:08:05 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 02:43:47 PM
So in short, the GAA is wrong to examine the naming of clubs after a colossal racist because he did his bit for Catholics back in the day?

I wouldn't summarise it exactly in those words (esp. the part about Catholics as noted by trueblue) but given that most people are a mixture of good and bad, something like this is a matter of weighing up the bad and the good and determining which was a more significant part of that person's life.

Mitchell held extremely racists views which were wrong by any measure but as far as I know (and I'm open to correction on this), he wasn't a leading figure in the pro-slavery movement - would American history books on the subject reference anything of his? I think it can be reasonably argued that he was more influential in the course of Irish nationalism and that it made up more of his life than the slavery movement.

Someone earlier mentioned Eoin O'Duffy, he might make a more interesting study - he was a prominent figure in the fight for Irish independence but does his later involvement with fascism completely obliterate his earlier contributions? According to Wiki, the terrace in Clones is named after him
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 10, 2020, 03:08:50 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 09:29:05 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 09:24:47 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 09:21:53 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 09:14:37 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 09, 2020, 09:07:10 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:48:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 08:31:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 09, 2020, 08:21:54 PM
Doesn't really matter when they were formed though. You can't change that. The issue is whether, society having evolved for the better in the meantime, such names and symbols are maintained.

But why stop with John Mitchell?

If John Mitchell is fair game, shouldn't every other team and stadium named after a "questionable" character be up for debate too? (I read crazy stuff about Roger Casement being a paedophule but don't know if it was ever proven)

Case by case basis I guess, if that's where it ends up going.
who decides the outcome?

I don't know. I've already explained my position at this point in time.
ask the members of the club it's their club

But what if non club members are better informed and better educated  on the topic than the members?
judging from the John mitchells guys I've met on my travels that's not likely 🙂
John Mitchel's Tralee club member Patrick O'Brien sent a load of online racist abuse to former Arsenal and England player Ian Wright just last month.

The abuse was obviously vile, sickening and criminal - yet O'Brien could legitimately claim, if he so wished, that the person his club is named after would have agreed with his abuse. Because that sort of abuse was precisely what John Mitchel was all about.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0511/1137812-ian-wright-reveals-shocking-online-racist-abuse/
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 10, 2020, 03:10:31 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 10, 2020, 03:07:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 02:48:26 PM
Didn't Che Guevara and Castro facilitate the torture of gay people and put them into concentration camps.  Michael D should be made retract his glowing tribute He paid  to Castro upon his death and all Che Guevara murals should be painted over

Ah no, does this mean I have to stop wearing my Che Guevara T-shirt?

Maybe you could wear a John Mitchell tee shirt instead?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 10, 2020, 03:41:30 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 03:10:31 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 10, 2020, 03:07:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 02:48:26 PM
Didn't Che Guevara and Castro facilitate the torture of gay people and put them into concentration camps.  Michael D should be made retract his glowing tribute He paid  to Castro upon his death and all Che Guevara murals should be painted over

Ah no, does this mean I have to stop wearing my Che Guevara T-shirt?

Maybe you could wear a John Mitchell tee shirt instead?

Only if he has long flowing locks and wearing a beret.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: NetNitrate on June 10, 2020, 04:18:03 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 03:08:05 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 02:43:47 PM
So in short, the GAA is wrong to examine the naming of clubs after a colossal racist because he did his bit for Catholics back in the day?

I wouldn't summarise it exactly in those words (esp. the part about Catholics as noted by trueblue) but given that most people are a mixture of good and bad, something like this is a matter of weighing up the bad and the good and determining which was a more significant part of that person's life.

Mitchell held extremely racists views which were wrong by any measure but as far as I know (and I'm open to correction on this), he wasn't a leading figure in the pro-slavery movement - would American history books on the subject reference anything of his? I think it can be reasonably argued that he was more influential in the course of Irish nationalism and that it made up more of his life than the slavery movement.

Someone earlier mentioned Eoin O'Duffy, he might make a more interesting study - he was a prominent figure in the fight for Irish independence but does his later involvement with fascism completely obliterate his earlier contributions? According to Wiki, the terrace in Clones is named after him

Eoin O'Duffy is a good example. He was a hero in the Irish War of Independence and Chief of Staff of IRA. But he is remembered as a Blueshirt and you would never see a statue to him, or a GAA club named after him. He comes in for pretty harsh abuse from Shinners on Twitter - probably not knowing he was a Sinn Fein TD, too. If the same rule was followed for the others, they should not be commemorated in anyway. One problem with Thomas Francis Meagher (who was pretty brutal to Native Americans) is that he designed the Irish tri-colour.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2020, 04:20:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 10, 2020, 02:24:54 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 01:18:29 PM
In my opinion, Mitchell's contribution to Irish nationalism independently outweighs his contribution to the Confederacy & slavery
You can't be serious in believing that, can you?

This holds that because the victims of Mitchel's racism and love for slavery were not Irish, or probably more to the point, because his pro-racism and pro-slavery propagandising was not done in the name of the British Empire, we should overlook it.

Incidentally, Irish nationalism in and of itself was never necessarily a force for good. Self-rule was not the point, fair and just government and law was the point, or should have been the point.

The calls for self-rule only existed because Irish people were treated as effectively sub-human by the British, and could never receive fair and just government and law under the British Empire.

Mitchel treated blacks as literally sub-human. Belief in the principles of fairness and justice are universal, or they don't exist at all. Mitchel was categorically not a believer in such. He is not an appropriate person to celebrate via the names of GAA clubs.

If Mitchel had gone to India and been a propagandist for British rule there, if he had propagandised that Indians were sub-human and that it was righteous that they be enslaved by the British, instead of going to America and being a propagandist for racism, slavery and the Confederacy, would he have several GAA clubs named after him?

The answer is no, he would not.

I think he said the slaves were better treated than the Irishman, so if the blacks were subhuman....
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: seafoid on June 10, 2020, 04:30:55 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 10, 2020, 02:24:54 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 01:18:29 PM
In my opinion, Mitchell's contribution to Irish nationalism independently outweighs his contribution to the Confederacy & slavery
You can't be serious in believing that, can you?

This holds that because the victims of Mitchel's racism and love for slavery were not Irish, or probably more to the point, because his pro-racism and pro-slavery propagandising was not done in the name of the British Empire, we should overlook it.

Incidentally, Irish nationalism in and of itself was never necessarily a force for good. Self-rule was not the point, fair and just government and law was the point, or should have been the point.

The calls for self-rule only existed because Irish people were treated as effectively sub-human by the British, and could never receive fair and just government and law under the British Empire.

Mitchel treated blacks as literally sub-human. Belief in the principles of fairness and justice are universal, or they don't exist at all. Mitchel was categorically not a believer in such. He is not an appropriate person to celebrate via the names of GAA clubs.

If Mitchel had gone to India and been a propagandist for British rule there, if he had propagandised that Indians were sub-human and that it was righteous that they be enslaved by the British, instead of going to America and being a propagandist for racism, slavery and the Confederacy, would he have several GAA clubs named after him?

The answer is no, he would not.

He was a journalist. He didn't own slaves.
Pick someone with GAA connections who actually owned slaves, Sid.

Tsk tsk.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Gmac on June 10, 2020, 04:46:06 PM
HBO have pulled gone with the wind off there movie library, tv show cops canceled and live pd gone the book burning has started already too. John mitchels today St whoever tomorrow.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Rossfan on June 10, 2020, 05:02:29 PM
O'Duffy was a leading GAA figure in his day.
Heard tales when he was Ulster Secretary he wouldn't accept Referees' reports if Monaghan lost but would find some technicality to order a replay or award the game to Monaghan.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 05:03:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 10, 2020, 05:02:29 PM
O'Duffy was a leading GAA figure in his day.
Heard tales when he was Ulster Secretary he wouldn't accept Referees' reports if Monaghan lost but would find some technicality to order a replay or award the game to Monaghan.
He got booted from Ulster GAA but also has the terrace named after him. That has to go IMO

On the Mitchels thing, the only club that I know goes by it is the Newry team eg Glenullin go by ”The Glen” or “Glenullin”, or do they get called Mitchels too?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on June 10, 2020, 05:06:19 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2020, 04:46:06 PM
HBO have pulled gone with the wind off there movie library, tv show cops canceled and live pd gone the book burning has started already too. John mitchels today St whoever tomorrow.
Madness. PC merchants and snowflakes gone mad
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: omaghjoe on June 10, 2020, 05:28:06 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 05:03:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 10, 2020, 05:02:29 PM
O'Duffy was a leading GAA figure in his day.
Heard tales when he was Ulster Secretary he wouldn't accept Referees' reports if Monaghan lost but would find some technicality to order a replay or award the game to Monaghan.
He got booted from Ulster GAA but also has the terrace named after him. That has to go IMO

Your hardly in a position to be rearing your head at this time!
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 05:29:37 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 10, 2020, 05:28:06 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 05:03:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 10, 2020, 05:02:29 PM
O'Duffy was a leading GAA figure in his day.
Heard tales when he was Ulster Secretary he wouldn't accept Referees' reports if Monaghan lost but would find some technicality to order a replay or award the game to Monaghan.
He got booted from Ulster GAA but also has the terrace named after him. That has to go IMO

Your hardly in a position to be rearing your head at this time!
Lol shssh
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: five points on June 10, 2020, 05:50:10 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 05:03:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 10, 2020, 05:02:29 PM
O'Duffy was a leading GAA figure in his day.
Heard tales when he was Ulster Secretary he wouldn't accept Referees' reports if Monaghan lost but would find some technicality to order a replay or award the game to Monaghan.
He got booted from Ulster GAA but also has the terrace named after him. That has to go IMO

On the Mitchels thing, the only club that I know goes by it is the Newry team eg Glenullin go by "The Glen" or "Glenullin", or do they get called Mitchels too?

Castlebar go by the Mitchels all the time.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Ball Hopper on June 10, 2020, 06:23:19 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 10, 2020, 05:51:51 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 05:03:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 10, 2020, 05:02:29 PM
O'Duffy was a leading GAA figure in his day.
Heard tales when he was Ulster Secretary he wouldn't accept Referees' reports if Monaghan lost but would find some technicality to order a replay or award the game to Monaghan.
He got booted from Ulster GAA but also has the terrace named after him. That has to go IMO

On the Mitchels thing, the only club that I know goes by it is the Newry team eg Glenullin go by "The Glen" or "Glenullin", or do they get called Mitchels too?
There's one in Antrim although they struggle to field. I suppose Castlebar would be a big one.

John Mitchels a very prominent club in Tralee.  Currently in Div 1 of County League - glory days back in the 60's when they won something like 5 county championships.

Also a club of same name in Birmingham, UK.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Evil Genius on June 10, 2020, 06:59:46 PM
Re Mitchell, why doesn;t some historian prepare a Bio of him, then present it to Black members of the GAA, to let them decide? (Serious suggestion btw)

As for St. Theresa, this proud atheist has absolutely no problem with naming an organisation after her - unless it turns out she was a racist or a terrorist or something like that.

Anyone know her or her family who could vouch for her?

(This last comment wasn't quite so serious, btw)
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:07:27 PM
Castlebar had a speaker out last summer to talk about him

http://www.castlebarmitchels.com/news_detail/10054098/
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 07:14:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 02:06:39 PM

Gaelic Games are part of our national identity.....is that an element we want to retain, or in the interests of political correctness, dispatch to the dustbin?

Here is the problem with that logic. By taking on the mantle of defenders of national heritage some obligations come with that. And inserting a slaver into the pantheon of revolutionary, nationalist and even religious figures is contentious.

Whatever about Newry, he had some connection to the town, is there nobody else a club in Castlebar  could idolise?

Picking historical figures, especially those who predate the GAA like Mitchell, is fraught with problems, not least claiming them for a sport that didn't exist in their lifetime. Its presumptuous. Clubs should only be named after local figures, preferably with some form of connection to hbe sport.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers

I'm sure many people in the broader community would find those names objectionable......should they be changed?

What about a club or county logo that promotes one religion over another?  Should new logos and crests be mandated?

(I could be mistaken, but naming clubs after Nationalist icons was very common in the early years of the organization-so the older the club, the more likely they would have such an association)

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Gmac on June 10, 2020, 07:42:20 PM
Chrisopher Columbus statues are getting beheaded in Boston and other cities , Lincoln the most beloved president said if I could save the union and keep slavery I would do it when will he be canceled.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 07:42:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers
I know of Kevin Lynch's, what other clubs are named after hunger strikers?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 07:42:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers
I know of Kevin Lynch's, what other clubs are named after hunger strikers?

Not necessarily just clubs, but grounds and competitions too

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/sunday-life-reveals-sports-bodys-controverisal-memorials-to-dead-ira-members-in-ulster-28527638.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/gaa-ira-cup-follow-ifas-lead-sectarianism-reform-says-trevor-ringland-950353%3famp
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2020, 08:25:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 07:42:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers
I know of Kevin Lynch's, what other clubs are named after hunger strikers?

Not necessarily just clubs, but grounds and competitions too

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/sunday-life-reveals-sports-bodys-controverisal-memorials-to-dead-ira-members-in-ulster-28527638.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/gaa-ira-cup-follow-ifas-lead-sectarianism-reform-says-trevor-ringland-950353%3famp

Oh, you've changed your post totally then, there's been many a debate on these in the past, look them up
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 10, 2020, 08:27:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2020, 08:25:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 07:42:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers
I know of Kevin Lynch's, what other clubs are named after hunger strikers?

Not necessarily just clubs, but grounds and competitions too

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/sunday-life-reveals-sports-bodys-controverisal-memorials-to-dead-ira-members-in-ulster-28527638.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/gaa-ira-cup-follow-ifas-lead-sectarianism-reform-says-trevor-ringland-950353%3famp

Oh, you've changed your post totally then, there's been many a debate on these in the past, look them up

I'm sure there has, but you can't be selective in your outrage.

Either everything is on the table or nothing is on the table.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:31:54 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers

I'm sure many people in the broader community would find those names objectionable......should they be changed?

What about a club or county logo that promotes one religion over another?  Should new logos and crests be mandated?

(I could be mistaken, but naming clubs after Nationalist icons was very common in the early years of the organization-so the older the club, the more likely they would have such an association)

At least you could argue Kevin Lynch was a member of the club.

Mitchel died 23 years before the GAA was founded. I doubt Roger Casement or Countess Markievicz were big sports fan, and had hee haw to do with Belfast or Sligo. I think the arbitrary nature of naming may come home to roost.

Plenty of religious iconography in other sports, do they have the same arguments? St Pats spring to mind, catholic iconography on their crest too. I think thats maybe more a county argument, clubs don't necessarily have to be as inclusive.

By the way, if this new East Belfast club names themselves after Carson or Cromwell nobody who thinks names are just namrs can object.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:36:25 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 08:27:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2020, 08:25:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 07:42:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers
I know of Kevin Lynch's, what other clubs are named after hunger strikers?

Not necessarily just clubs, but grounds and competitions too

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/sunday-life-reveals-sports-bodys-controverisal-memorials-to-dead-ira-members-in-ulster-28527638.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/gaa-ira-cup-follow-ifas-lead-sectarianism-reform-says-trevor-ringland-950353%3famp

Oh, you've changed your post totally then, there's been many a debate on these in the past, look them up

I'm sure there has, but you can't be selective in your outrage.

Either everything is on the table or nothing is on the table.

I don't think it should be driven by unionism, or percieved ideas of unionism, but why not?

If your club was named 140 years ago after a random rebel with no connection to the community, whats wrong with a discussion about a rebrand? I think in particular the small number of camogie and ladies football clubs who are standalone should be able to consider, now wait for it, naming themselvrs after a female figure.

But it has to be an internsl process.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 10, 2020, 08:38:20 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:31:54 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers

I'm sure many people in the broader community would find those names objectionable......should they be changed?

What about a club or county logo that promotes one religion over another?  Should new logos and crests be mandated?

(I could be mistaken, but naming clubs after Nationalist icons was very common in the early years of the organization-so the older the club, the more likely they would have such an association)

At least you could argue Kevin Lynch was a member of the club.

Mitchel died 23 years before the GAA was founded. I doubt Roger Casement or Countess Markievicz were big sports fan, and had hee haw to do with Belfast or Sligo. I think the arbitrary nature of naming may come home to roost.

Plenty of religious iconography in other sports, do they have the same arguments? St Pats spring to mind, catholic iconography on their crest too. I think thats maybe more a county argument, clubs don't necessarily have to be as inclusive.

By the way, if this new East Belfast club names themselves after Carson or Cromwell nobody who thinks names are just namrs can object.

Well you could go around in circles until the cows come home

So some people are offended by words spoken 140 years ago, but aren't offended by something that actually happened 40 years ago
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 10, 2020, 08:41:12 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:36:25 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 08:27:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2020, 08:25:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 07:42:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers
I know of Kevin Lynch's, what other clubs are named after hunger strikers?

Not necessarily just clubs, but grounds and competitions too

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/sunday-life-reveals-sports-bodys-controverisal-memorials-to-dead-ira-members-in-ulster-28527638.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/gaa-ira-cup-follow-ifas-lead-sectarianism-reform-says-trevor-ringland-950353%3famp

Oh, you've changed your post totally then, there's been many a debate on these in the past, look them up

I'm sure there has, but you can't be selective in your outrage.

Either everything is on the table or nothing is on the table.

I don't think it should be driven by unionism, or percieved ideas of unionism, but why not?

If your club was named 140 years ago after a random rebel with no connection to the community, whats wrong with a discussion about a rebrand? I think in particular the small number of camogie and ladies football clubs who are standalone should be able to consider, now wait for it, naming themselvrs after a female figure.

But it has to be an internsl process.

Completely agree. It should be left up to the members of the club to figure out and hold a vote, but having outsider dicatate what's acceptable and unacceptable is a little too precious for my liking
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2020, 08:41:37 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 08:27:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2020, 08:25:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 07:42:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers
I know of Kevin Lynch's, what other clubs are named after hunger strikers?

Not necessarily just clubs, but grounds and competitions too

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/sunday-life-reveals-sports-bodys-controverisal-memorials-to-dead-ira-members-in-ulster-28527638.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/gaa-ira-cup-follow-ifas-lead-sectarianism-reform-says-trevor-ringland-950353%3famp

Oh, you've changed your post totally then, there's been many a debate on these in the past, look them up

I'm sure there has, but you can't be selective in your outrage.

Either everything is on the table or nothing is on the table.

I'm not outraged, I'm not bothered to be honest, The name was taken for what it was,  to the people of that parish, a person who for them was a Irishman looking to right the wrongs in Ireland. Unbeknown to them he was in favour of the Confederates and slavery.

No google and poor enough education in those days. I doubt any of his manuscripts made it to Castlebar.

Everything on the table is a daft approach tbh. Deal with the subject matter and move on. Deal with the 'other outrage' and move on.

I'd say go back to those topics you've brought up and deal with them on that thread

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:45:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 08:38:20 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:31:54 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers

I'm sure many people in the broader community would find those names objectionable......should they be changed?

What about a club or county logo that promotes one religion over another?  Should new logos and crests be mandated?

(I could be mistaken, but naming clubs after Nationalist icons was very common in the early years of the organization-so the older the club, the more likely they would have such an association)

At least you could argue Kevin Lynch was a member of the club.

Mitchel died 23 years before the GAA was founded. I doubt Roger Casement or Countess Markievicz were big sports fan, and had hee haw to do with Belfast or Sligo. I think the arbitrary nature of naming may come home to roost.

Plenty of religious iconography in other sports, do they have the same arguments? St Pats spring to mind, catholic iconography on their crest too. I think thats maybe more a county argument, clubs don't necessarily have to be as inclusive.

By the way, if this new East Belfast club names themselves after Carson or Cromwell nobody who thinks names are just namrs can object.

Well you could go around in circles until the cows come home

So some people are offended by words spoken 140 years ago, but aren't offended by something that actually happened 40 years ago

Ultimately clubs have the discretion to call themselves what they want. Calling yourself after an INLA hunger striker is clearly a statement. Calling yourelf after a slaver and racist has become one. Both need to be looked at.

None of the clubs involved though can credibly call themselves cross community. No unionist will hurl for Kevin Lynch's. Very hard to sell John Mitchel to the new Irish. They are off to Castlebar Celtic. And nobody can complain.

So there are practical as well as traditional arguments
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:47:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2020, 08:41:37 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 08:27:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2020, 08:25:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 07:42:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers
I know of Kevin Lynch's, what other clubs are named after hunger strikers?

Not necessarily just clubs, but grounds and competitions too

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/sunday-life-reveals-sports-bodys-controverisal-memorials-to-dead-ira-members-in-ulster-28527638.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/gaa-ira-cup-follow-ifas-lead-sectarianism-reform-says-trevor-ringland-950353%3famp

Oh, you've changed your post totally then, there's been many a debate on these in the past, look them up

I'm sure there has, but you can't be selective in your outrage.

Either everything is on the table or nothing is on the table.

I'm not outraged, I'm not bothered to be honest, The name was taken for what it was,  to the people of that parish, a person who for them was a Irishman looking to right the wrongs in Ireland. Unbeknown to them he was in favour of the Confederates and slavery.

No google and poor enough education in those days. I doubt any of his manuscripts made it to Castlebar.

Everything on the table is a daft approach tbh. Deal with the subject matter and move on. Deal with the 'other outrage' and move on.

I'd say go back to those topics you've brought up and deal with them on that thread

I would question tbe unbeknownst to them line.

But if he was acceptable then and now isn't, whats the problem with a name change?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Rossfan on June 10, 2020, 08:57:17 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:31:54 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers

I'm sure many people in the broader community would find those names objectionable......should they be changed?

What about a club or county logo that promotes one religion over another?  Should new logos and crests be mandated?

(I could be mistaken, but naming clubs after Nationalist icons was very common in the early years of the organization-so the older the club, the more likely they would have such an association)

At least you could argue Kevin Lynch was a member of the club.

Mitchel died 23 years before the GAA was founded. I doubt Roger Casement or Countess Markievicz were big sports fan, and had hee haw to do with Belfast or Sligo. I think the arbitrary nature of naming may come home to roost.

I think you'll find Constance Markievicz (nee Gore-Booth) had some connection to her native Sligo ;)
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 10, 2020, 09:12:25 PM
Here's a thought...

If we're going waaaaay back here about controversial figures, alleged racism, slavery etc.... Could we not say that the actual foundation of the GAA was xenophobic? An organisation that did not include the sports associated with another country in its setup, and then banning its own members from watching/participating in these "foreign games"?

Maybe the GAA as an organisation needs closing down?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 09:18:23 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 10, 2020, 08:57:17 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:31:54 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers

I'm sure many people in the broader community would find those names objectionable......should they be changed?

What about a club or county logo that promotes one religion over another?  Should new logos and crests be mandated?

(I could be mistaken, but naming clubs after Nationalist icons was very common in the early years of the organization-so the older the club, the more likely they would have such an association)

At least you could argue Kevin Lynch was a member of the club.

Mitchel died 23 years before the GAA was founded. I doubt Roger Casement or Countess Markievicz were big sports fan, and had hee haw to do with Belfast or Sligo. I think the arbitrary nature of naming may come home to roost.

I think you'll find Constance Markievicz (nee Gore-Booth) had some connection to her native Sligo ;)
Her granparents lived there. Tenious.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 09:19:10 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 10, 2020, 09:12:25 PM
Here's a thought...

If we're going waaaaay back here about controversial figures, alleged racism, slavery etc.... Could we not say that the actual foundation of the GAA was xenophobic? An organisation that did not include the sports associated with another country in its setup, and then banning its own members from watching/participating in these "foreign games"?

Maybe the GAA as an organisation needs closing down?

And the GAA grew out of those positions. So why not this one too?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 09:21:54 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 10, 2020, 09:02:19 PM
And Roger Casement may have had no connection to Belfast but he did to County Antrim, which is why they named the county ground after him, which happens to be in Belfast.

Ok, he lived in Antrim for 3 years as a kid, so I will walk that back somewhat. But he isn't exactly linked intimately with the place. Is there no other local figure?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 10, 2020, 09:34:03 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 10, 2020, 09:28:19 PM
Aye, Mickey Marley.

Marley Park? Oh, name's taken.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 09:35:15 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 10, 2020, 09:28:19 PM
Aye, Mickey Marley.

Had to google that.

Isn't it odd that very few clubs commemorate working class/labour figures. Always the catholic nationalist side.

Dozens of Pearses. One named after Connolly. And thats in Glasgow.

Are amy GAA clubs named after women who aren't St. Bridget?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 10, 2020, 09:37:56 PM
St Teresa
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 09:47:25 PM
So no actual or Irish women?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 09:49:54 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 10, 2020, 09:48:49 PM
Cora Finn obviously.

:D :D
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 10:02:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers

I'm sure many people in the broader community would find those names objectionable......should they be changed?

What about a club or county logo that promotes one religion over another?  Should new logos and crests be mandated?

(I could be mistaken, but naming clubs after Nationalist icons was very common in the early years of the organization-so the older the club, the more likely they would have such an association)

I think there's a difference between say for example the hunger strikers and Mitchell's stance on slavery - opposition to /support for the hunger strikers is pretty much a subjective thing  whereas Mitchell's views on slavery are objectively wrong for most people, virtually nobody in the Ireland/GAA would think otherwise; it's a matter of whether those views sufficiently overshadow his contribution in other areas.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 10, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
How is it subjective

What if the hunger strikers had been IRA/INLA members who "murdered" people? 

Would the  family members of their victims not be entitled to object?

Casements name came up.....there's some pretty credible evidence that he sexually abused minors?

I'm sure victims of sexual abuse would find it abhorrent that a stadium is named after a paedophile!

Who gets to decide what is objectionable and what isn't?

Is it a conversation for the club members or is it a conversation for the broader community?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 10:31:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
How is it subjective

What if the hunger strikers had been IRA/INLA members who "murdered" people? 

Would the  family members of their victims not be entitled to object?

Casements name came up.....there's some pretty credible evidence that he sexually abused minors?

I'm sure victims of sexual abuse would find it abhorrent that a stadium is named after a paedophile!

Who gets to decide what is objectionable and what isn't?

Is it a conversation for the club members or is it a conversation for the broader community?

It's subjective in that some reasonable people would justify the actions of those INLA men while other reasonable people would condemn them - that's what makes it subjective. I don't think anyone is trying to justify Mitchell's views on slavery but I'm open to correction on that - as such his views can be considered objectively wrong.

If Casement was proven to be a paedophile (and I understand those claims are unproven?), then I don't think anyone would attempt to justify what he did, most would objectively consider it to be wrong.

Anyone can object about whatever they want but the point I'm making is whether the thing they're objecting about is a matter of opinion (people can reasonably hold either viewpoint on whether or not INLA members actions were right or not) or whether the thing they're objecting about is something which is generally accepted as being wrong (e.g. Mitchell's view on slavery or someone being a paedophile)
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 10:38:32 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 10:31:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
How is it subjective

What if the hunger strikers had been IRA/INLA members who "murdered" people? 

Would the  family members of their victims not be entitled to object?

Casements name came up.....there's some pretty credible evidence that he sexually abused minors?

I'm sure victims of sexual abuse would find it abhorrent that a stadium is named after a paedophile!

Who gets to decide what is objectionable and what isn't?

Is it a conversation for the club members or is it a conversation for the broader community?

It's subjective in that some reasonable people would justify the actions of those INLA men while other reasonable people would condemn them - that's what makes it subjective. I don't think anyone is trying to justify Mitchell's views on slavery but I'm open to correction on that - as such his views can be considered objectively wrong.

If Casement was proven to be a paedophile (and I understand those claims are unproven?), then I don't think anyone would attempt to justify what he did, most would objectively consider it to be wrong.

Anyone can object about whatever they want but the point I'm making is whether the thing they're objecting about is a matter of opinion (people can reasonably hold either viewpoint on whether or not INLA members actions were right or not) or whether the thing they're objecting about is something which is generally accepted as being wrong (e.g. Mitchell's view on slavery or someone being a paedophile)

Is that not his point? Should this objective/subjective debate be up to the club and the club only or a broader, even enforced, conversation?

You might consider Kevin Lynch a valid name for a GAA club. Sponsors might run for cover. Should that even matter? If a club wants to make a statement should they sink or swim on it?  Do the county boards have no say?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 10:59:48 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 10:38:32 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 10:31:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
How is it subjective

What if the hunger strikers had been IRA/INLA members who "murdered" people? 

Would the  family members of their victims not be entitled to object?

Casements name came up.....there's some pretty credible evidence that he sexually abused minors?

I'm sure victims of sexual abuse would find it abhorrent that a stadium is named after a paedophile!

Who gets to decide what is objectionable and what isn't?

Is it a conversation for the club members or is it a conversation for the broader community?

It's subjective in that some reasonable people would justify the actions of those INLA men while other reasonable people would condemn them - that's what makes it subjective. I don't think anyone is trying to justify Mitchell's views on slavery but I'm open to correction on that - as such his views can be considered objectively wrong.

If Casement was proven to be a paedophile (and I understand those claims are unproven?), then I don't think anyone would attempt to justify what he did, most would objectively consider it to be wrong.

Anyone can object about whatever they want but the point I'm making is whether the thing they're objecting about is a matter of opinion (people can reasonably hold either viewpoint on whether or not INLA members actions were right or not) or whether the thing they're objecting about is something which is generally accepted as being wrong (e.g. Mitchell's view on slavery or someone being a paedophile)

Is that not his point? Should this objective/subjective debate be up to the club and the club only or a broader, even enforced, conversation?


You might consider Kevin Lynch a valid name for a GAA club. Sponsors might run for cover. Should that even matter? If a club wants to make a statement should they sink or swim on it?  Do the county boards have no say?

I wasn't making a comment on who should make the decision. I was drawing a distinction between someone like Kevin Lynch where the discussion is around whether what he did was right/wrong and someone like John Mitchell (where it's accepted that his views on slavery were wrong) and the discussion is around whether his views on slavery outweigh the good work he did.

It's a subtle but important distinction imo although I may not be explaining it as well as I'd like
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 10, 2020, 11:01:09 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 10:31:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
How is it subjective

What if the hunger strikers had been IRA/INLA members who "murdered" people? 

Would the  family members of their victims not be entitled to object?

Casements name came up.....there's some pretty credible evidence that he sexually abused minors?

I'm sure victims of sexual abuse would find it abhorrent that a stadium is named after a paedophile!

Who gets to decide what is objectionable and what isn't?

Is it a conversation for the club members or is it a conversation for the broader community?

It's subjective in that some reasonable people would justify the actions of those INLA men while other reasonable people would condemn them - that's what makes it subjective. I don't think anyone is trying to justify Mitchell's views on slavery but I'm open to correction on that - as such his views can be considered objectively wrong.

If Casement was proven to be a paedophile (and I understand those claims are unproven?), then I don't think anyone would attempt to justify what he did, most would objectively consider it to be wrong.

Anyone can object about whatever they want but the point I'm making is whether the thing they're objecting about is a matter of opinion (people can reasonably hold either viewpoint on whether or not INLA members actions were right or not) or whether the thing they're objecting about is something which is generally accepted as being wrong (e.g. Mitchell's view on slavery or someone being a paedophile)

Is being offended over an "opinion" an historic figure had about something they had no meaningful role in, 130 years ago,  in a country over 3000 miles away not the epitome of subjectivity. People choose what they wanted to be offended about. It's called selective outrage
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 11:08:00 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 11:01:09 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 10:31:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
How is it subjective

What if the hunger strikers had been IRA/INLA members who "murdered" people? 

Would the  family members of their victims not be entitled to object?

Casements name came up.....there's some pretty credible evidence that he sexually abused minors?

I'm sure victims of sexual abuse would find it abhorrent that a stadium is named after a paedophile!

Who gets to decide what is objectionable and what isn't?

Is it a conversation for the club members or is it a conversation for the broader community?

It's subjective in that some reasonable people would justify the actions of those INLA men while other reasonable people would condemn them - that's what makes it subjective. I don't think anyone is trying to justify Mitchell's views on slavery but I'm open to correction on that - as such his views can be considered objectively wrong.

If Casement was proven to be a paedophile (and I understand those claims are unproven?), then I don't think anyone would attempt to justify what he did, most would objectively consider it to be wrong.

Anyone can object about whatever they want but the point I'm making is whether the thing they're objecting about is a matter of opinion (people can reasonably hold either viewpoint on whether or not INLA members actions were right or not) or whether the thing they're objecting about is something which is generally accepted as being wrong (e.g. Mitchell's view on slavery or someone being a paedophile)

Is being offended over an "opinion" an historic figure had about something they had no meaningful role in, 130 years ago,  in a country over 3000 miles away not the epitome of subjectivity. People choose what they wanted to be offended about. It's called selective outrage

No meaningful role? Just an opinion?

He was an employed spokesperson for the Confederacy (two of his sons died in the war) and he edited their main newspaper.

You make it sound like he was overheard in a pub as opposed to a conviction that he was full time engaged in.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 11:18:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 11:01:09 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 10:31:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
How is it subjective

What if the hunger strikers had been IRA/INLA members who "murdered" people? 

Would the  family members of their victims not be entitled to object?

Casements name came up.....there's some pretty credible evidence that he sexually abused minors?

I'm sure victims of sexual abuse would find it abhorrent that a stadium is named after a paedophile!

Who gets to decide what is objectionable and what isn't?

Is it a conversation for the club members or is it a conversation for the broader community?

It's subjective in that some reasonable people would justify the actions of those INLA men while other reasonable people would condemn them - that's what makes it subjective. I don't think anyone is trying to justify Mitchell's views on slavery but I'm open to correction on that - as such his views can be considered objectively wrong.

If Casement was proven to be a paedophile (and I understand those claims are unproven?), then I don't think anyone would attempt to justify what he did, most would objectively consider it to be wrong.

Anyone can object about whatever they want but the point I'm making is whether the thing they're objecting about is a matter of opinion (people can reasonably hold either viewpoint on whether or not INLA members actions were right or not) or whether the thing they're objecting about is something which is generally accepted as being wrong (e.g. Mitchell's view on slavery or someone being a paedophile)

Is being offended over an "opinion" an historic figure had about something they had no meaningful role in, 130 years ago,  in a country over 3000 miles away not the epitome of subjectivity. People choose what they wanted to be offended about. It's called selective outrage

I would have thought everyone would find his views offensive, do you not find his views on slavery offensive? Edit: I think think most reasonable people would consider his views on slavery to be flat out wrong and I'm not aware of anyone on here who have said otherwise
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2020, 11:38:01 PM
Whitey has selective outrage on a daily basis. I wouldn't get flustered too much on his musings
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 11:53:15 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 11:18:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 11:01:09 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 10:31:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
How is it subjective

What if the hunger strikers had been IRA/INLA members who "murdered" people? 

Would the  family members of their victims not be entitled to object?

Casements name came up.....there's some pretty credible evidence that he sexually abused minors?

I'm sure victims of sexual abuse would find it abhorrent that a stadium is named after a paedophile!

Who gets to decide what is objectionable and what isn't?

Is it a conversation for the club members or is it a conversation for the broader community?

It's subjective in that some reasonable people would justify the actions of those INLA men while other reasonable people would condemn them - that's what makes it subjective. I don't think anyone is trying to justify Mitchell's views on slavery but I'm open to correction on that - as such his views can be considered objectively wrong.

If Casement was proven to be a paedophile (and I understand those claims are unproven?), then I don't think anyone would attempt to justify what he did, most would objectively consider it to be wrong.

Anyone can object about whatever they want but the point I'm making is whether the thing they're objecting about is a matter of opinion (people can reasonably hold either viewpoint on whether or not INLA members actions were right or not) or whether the thing they're objecting about is something which is generally accepted as being wrong (e.g. Mitchell's view on slavery or someone being a paedophile)

Is being offended over an "opinion" an historic figure had about something they had no meaningful role in, 130 years ago,  in a country over 3000 miles away not the epitome of subjectivity. People choose what they wanted to be offended about. It's called selective outrage

I would have thought everyone would find his views offensive, do you not find his views on slavery offensive? Edit: I think think most reasonable people would consider his views on slavery to be flat out wrong and I'm not aware of anyone on here who have said otherwise

You sailed close to it with the 'just an opinion' and 'no influence' guff
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 11, 2020, 12:18:53 AM
Yes-of course I find it offensive, but I'm sure if we go back and look at every significant figure in Irish history, someone could find something to be offended about

As regards Mitchels role in the Civil War, from what I have read he was not a major or influential figure in the overall context of the war unlike say a Thomas Francis Meagher
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 11, 2020, 01:42:56 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:31:54 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers

I'm sure many people in the broader community would find those names objectionable......should they be changed?

What about a club or county logo that promotes one religion over another?  Should new logos and crests be mandated?

(I could be mistaken, but naming clubs after Nationalist icons was very common in the early years of the organization-so the older the club, the more likely they would have such an association)

At least you could argue Kevin Lynch was a member of the club.

Mitchel died 23 years before the GAA was founded. I doubt Roger Casement or Countess Markievicz were big sports fan, and had hee haw to do with Belfast or Sligo. I think the arbitrary nature of naming may come home to roost.

Plenty of religious iconography in other sports, do they have the same arguments? St Pats spring to mind, catholic iconography on their crest too. I think thats maybe more a county argument, clubs don't necessarily have to be as inclusive.

By the way, if this new East Belfast club names themselves after Carson or Cromwell nobody who thinks names are just namrs can object.
Maybe they should go the whole hog and name it after Lenny Murphy, Billy Wright or Soldier F. Would give it that lived experience feel, given that all were "active" within many people's lives and memories. Be interesting if only to see the reaction here.

Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 07:14:38 PM
Clubs should only be named after local figures, preferably with some form of connection to hbe sport.

Billy Wright actually played Gaelic football, so that's that sorted.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 11, 2020, 01:44:17 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 10, 2020, 09:12:25 PM
Here's a thought...

If we're going waaaaay back here about controversial figures, alleged racism, slavery etc.... Could we not say that the actual foundation of the GAA was xenophobic? An organisation that did not include the sports associated with another country in its setup, and then banning its own members from watching/participating in these "foreign games"?

Maybe the GAA as an organisation needs closing down?
The deflections and bizarre (non-)logic just get nuttier and nuttier.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: macdanger2 on June 11, 2020, 10:39:21 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 11:53:15 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 11:18:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 11:01:09 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2020, 10:31:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
How is it subjective

What if the hunger strikers had been IRA/INLA members who "murdered" people? 

Would the  family members of their victims not be entitled to object?

Casements name came up.....there's some pretty credible evidence that he sexually abused minors?

I'm sure victims of sexual abuse would find it abhorrent that a stadium is named after a paedophile!

Who gets to decide what is objectionable and what isn't?

Is it a conversation for the club members or is it a conversation for the broader community?

It's subjective in that some reasonable people would justify the actions of those INLA men while other reasonable people would condemn them - that's what makes it subjective. I don't think anyone is trying to justify Mitchell's views on slavery but I'm open to correction on that - as such his views can be considered objectively wrong.

If Casement was proven to be a paedophile (and I understand those claims are unproven?), then I don't think anyone would attempt to justify what he did, most would objectively consider it to be wrong.

Anyone can object about whatever they want but the point I'm making is whether the thing they're objecting about is a matter of opinion (people can reasonably hold either viewpoint on whether or not INLA members actions were right or not) or whether the thing they're objecting about is something which is generally accepted as being wrong (e.g. Mitchell's view on slavery or someone being a paedophile)

Is being offended over an "opinion" an historic figure had about something they had no meaningful role in, 130 years ago,  in a country over 3000 miles away not the epitome of subjectivity. People choose what they wanted to be offended about. It's called selective outrage

I would have thought everyone would find his views offensive, do you not find his views on slavery offensive? Edit: I think think most reasonable people would consider his views on slavery to be flat out wrong and I'm not aware of anyone on here who have said otherwise

You sailed close to it with the 'just an opinion' and 'no influence' guff

Can you point me to where I said this?  :o
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 11, 2020, 11:38:01 AM
Whoops. Retracted.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Rossfan on June 12, 2020, 06:52:43 PM
Cork Co Board have banned the Confederate flag from their Grounds.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Armagh18 on June 12, 2020, 11:33:03 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 02:10:22 PM
I also think that any GAA club (or Pitch) named after current of former members of the IRA should be renamed as a token of goodwill toward our neighbors on the other side of the divide
Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Eamonnca1 on June 13, 2020, 12:21:10 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 12, 2020, 06:52:43 PM
Cork Co Board have banned the Confederate flag from their Grounds.

Proper order.

Cork GAA to confiscate Confederate flags from fans attending matches
(https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cork-gaa-to-confiscate-confederate-flags-from-fans-attending-matches-1.4277385)
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 13, 2020, 12:29:32 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on June 12, 2020, 11:33:03 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2020, 02:10:22 PM
I also think that any GAA club (or Pitch) named after current of former members of the IRA should be renamed as a token of goodwill toward our neighbors on the other side of the divide
Jesus Christ.

Don't worry ......it called sarcasm
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 07:45:03 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 11, 2020, 01:42:56 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:31:54 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
So what about the clubs in the 6 counties, named after INLA members and Hunger Strikers

I'm sure many people in the broader community would find those names objectionable......should they be changed?

What about a club or county logo that promotes one religion over another?  Should new logos and crests be mandated?

(I could be mistaken, but naming clubs after Nationalist icons was very common in the early years of the organization-so the older the club, the more likely they would have such an association)

At least you could argue Kevin Lynch was a member of the club.

Mitchel died 23 years before the GAA was founded. I doubt Roger Casement or Countess Markievicz were big sports fan, and had hee haw to do with Belfast or Sligo. I think the arbitrary nature of naming may come home to roost.

Plenty of religious iconography in other sports, do they have the same arguments? St Pats spring to mind, catholic iconography on their crest too. I think thats maybe more a county argument, clubs don't necessarily have to be as inclusive.

By the way, if this new East Belfast club names themselves after Carson or Cromwell nobody who thinks names are just namrs can object.
Maybe they should go the whole hog and name it after Lenny Murphy, Billy Wright or Soldier F. Would give it that lived experience feel, given that all were "active" within many people's lives and memories. Be interesting if only to see the reaction here.

Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 07:14:38 PM
Clubs should only be named after local figures, preferably with some form of connection to hbe sport.

Billy Wright actually played Gaelic football, so that's that sorted.

The Billy Wright thing. Wasn't that just a myth
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 07:46:45 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
How is it subjective

What if the hunger strikers had been IRA/INLA members who "murdered" people? 

Would the  family members of their victims not be entitled to object?

Casements name came up.....there's some pretty credible evidence that he sexually abused minors?

I'm sure victims of sexual abuse would find it abhorrent that a stadium is named after a paedophile!

Who gets to decide what is objectionable and what isn't?

Is it a conversation for the club members or is it a conversation for the broader community?

What's the credible evidence that casement abused minors
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 13, 2020, 11:12:46 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 07:46:45 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
How is it subjective

What if the hunger strikers had been IRA/INLA members who "murdered" people? 

Would the  family members of their victims not be entitled to object?

Casements name came up.....there's some pretty credible evidence that he sexually abused minors?

I'm sure victims of sexual abuse would find it abhorrent that a stadium is named after a paedophile!

Who gets to decide what is objectionable and what isn't?

Is it a conversation for the club members or is it a conversation for the broader community?

What's the credible evidence that casement abused minors

Ive asked him before, he hadn't bothered to show it. He's a dick
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 13, 2020, 11:23:48 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 07:46:45 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
How is it subjective

What if the hunger strikers had been IRA/INLA members who "murdered" people? 

Would the  family members of their victims not be entitled to object?

Casements name came up.....there's some pretty credible evidence that he sexually abused minors?

I'm sure victims of sexual abuse would find it abhorrent that a stadium is named after a paedophile!

Who gets to decide what is objectionable and what isn't?

Is it a conversation for the club members or is it a conversation for the broader community?

What's the credible evidence that casement abused minors

I thought it was maybe the Brits who put that rumour about to further discredit Casement's character.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 13, 2020, 12:56:57 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 13, 2020, 11:23:48 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 07:46:45 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
How is it subjective

What if the hunger strikers had been IRA/INLA members who "murdered" people? 

Would the  family members of their victims not be entitled to object?

Casements name came up.....there's some pretty credible evidence that he sexually abused minors?

I'm sure victims of sexual abuse would find it abhorrent that a stadium is named after a paedophile!

Who gets to decide what is objectionable and what isn't?

Is it a conversation for the club members or is it a conversation for the broader community?

What's the credible evidence that casement abused minors

I thought it was maybe the Brits who put that rumour about to further discredit Casement's character.

Believe whatever you want

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/casement-and-paedophilia-1.1154823


https://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/our-decent-society-was-in-denial-about-sex-abuse-26538648.html

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/sep/28/roger-casement-gay-irish-martyr-or-victim-of-a-british-forgery

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/casements-black-diaries-closed-books-reopened/
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 13, 2020, 03:55:28 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 12:56:57 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 13, 2020, 11:23:48 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 07:46:45 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
How is it subjective

What if the hunger strikers had been IRA/INLA members who "murdered" people? 

Would the  family members of their victims not be entitled to object?

Casements name came up.....there's some pretty credible evidence that he sexually abused minors?

I'm sure victims of sexual abuse would find it abhorrent that a stadium is named after a paedophile!

Who gets to decide what is objectionable and what isn't?

Is it a conversation for the club members or is it a conversation for the broader community?

What's the credible evidence that casement abused minors

I thought it was maybe the Brits who put that rumour about to further discredit Casement's character.

Believe whatever you want

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/casement-and-paedophilia-1.1154823


https://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/our-decent-society-was-in-denial-about-sex-abuse-26538648.html

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/sep/28/roger-casement-gay-irish-martyr-or-victim-of-a-british-forgery

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/casements-black-diaries-closed-books-reopened/

It wouldn't be like the Brits to fabricate a story or "evidence" against anyone  ::)
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Rossfan on June 13, 2020, 05:42:53 PM
I see Whitey's English equivalents were showing their true colours in London today.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Gmac on June 13, 2020, 06:12:52 PM
Should police in all countries not be upholding the law and protecting property instead of concerned citizens  whatever their views are .
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 13, 2020, 06:57:27 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 13, 2020, 05:42:53 PM
I see Whitey's English equivalents were showing their true colours in London today.

And what were your equivalents up to last week?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Rossfan on June 13, 2020, 07:11:53 PM
The English Greens were being their usual mannerly dignified selves.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 13, 2020, 07:13:24 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 13, 2020, 06:12:52 PM
Should police in all countries not be upholding the law and protecting property instead of concerned citizens  whatever their views are .

In general, yes.

But police are organs of the state and the status quo. Sometimes the state needs a push.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 13, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 13, 2020, 07:51:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

I did not demand that.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 13, 2020, 08:02:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 13, 2020, 07:51:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

I did not demand that.

Apologies if I misunderstood one of your prior posts

"Personally, I think it is absolutely a matter for the wider GAA, but reasonable people can disagree."

So non club members or a bureaucrat in GAA HQ gets to dictate to a club who've been in existence for 100 years what their name should be?

Let the club and their members make the decision and let everyone else mind their own business
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

Haven't read what they said on that subject but before labelling someone a paedophile I would want to see a lot more evidence than what is in those links
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Olly on June 13, 2020, 10:04:49 PM
I heard the CBS ones bate the fcuk outta and bate children. Are we still to worship them in name?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 13, 2020, 10:57:51 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

Haven't read what they said on that subject but before labelling someone a paedophile I would want to see a lot more evidence than what is in those links

Where's this petition online? How many have signed it?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 13, 2020, 11:06:39 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Hmm, paedo and person who advocated slavery are now in the same boat
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 13, 2020, 11:42:04 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .

Assuming therefore you're happy enough with statues of Cromwell being erected provided the precise locality (wherever it may be) is fine with it?

I mean he had a lax attitude to indentured servitude and mass murder, but that aside, if you happen to be a fan of English republicanism and want to erect a statue you'd be ok with it yeah?

Mitchell should come down from all public (i.e. state owned) places - simple as that. He was a racist, and as such does not deserve veneration in the form of a statue - regardless of whether it's explained or not.

If people want to equivocate or make apologies for him privately or in their GAA clubs then that's their own business. But they shouldn't expect any shelter from the judgements of society, or history, for such a position.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 13, 2020, 11:44:45 PM
If John Mitchel is an appropriate person to name GAA clubs after, maybe Tom Humphries could have a camogie club named after him? After all, he did a lot to promote the sport, frequently mentioning it in his columns - and he was a mentor at St. Vincent's.

But you'd have to overlook the, em, child sex abuse he committed while a mentor.

Still, if people are willing to overlook John Mitchel's propagandising for racism and slavery, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch?

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:06:37 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 13, 2020, 10:57:51 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

Haven't read what they said on that subject but before labelling someone a paedophile I would want to see a lot more evidence than what is in those links

Where's this petition online? How many have signed it?

I'm starting it tomorrow
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 14, 2020, 12:29:06 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:06:37 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 13, 2020, 10:57:51 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

Haven't read what they said on that subject but before labelling someone a paedophile I would want to see a lot more evidence than what is in those links

Where's this petition online? How many have signed it?

I'm starting it tomorrow

Jesus!!!
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 14, 2020, 12:32:23 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 13, 2020, 11:44:45 PM
If John Mitchel is an appropriate person to name GAA clubs after, maybe Tom Humphries could have a camogie club named after him? After all, he did a lot to promote the sport, frequently mentioning it in his columns - and he was a mentor at St. Vincent's.

But you'd have to overlook the, em, child sex abuse he committed while a mentor.

Still, if people are willing to overlook John Mitchel's propagandising for racism and slavery, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch?

So again, this is tiresome. We are sticking child abusers and advocates for slavery in the same boat? You may stick Lincoln in that boat also
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:34:58 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 13, 2020, 11:44:45 PM
If John Mitchel is an appropriate person to name GAA clubs after, maybe Tom Humphries could have a camogie club named after him? After all, he did a lot to promote the sport, frequently mentioning it in his columns - and he was a mentor at St. Vincent's.

But you'd have to overlook the, em, child sex abuse he committed while a mentor.

Still, if people are willing to overlook John Mitchel's propagandising for racism and slavery, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch?

But here's the part you're missing......John Mitchell absolutely WAS an appropriate person to name a GAA Club after.....135 years ago..... when GAA were very much part of the effort to gain Independence from Britain

But its now part of these clubs history, and it's up to THEM to decide whether to keep it or not.

Personally, I'd call an EGM of members and  have a vote.....let the chips fall where they will

And If you don't want to join or support a club with such a name.....that's up to you, no one is asking or forcing you to join one
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:39:20 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 14, 2020, 12:29:06 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:06:37 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 13, 2020, 10:57:51 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

Haven't read what they said on that subject but before labelling someone a paedophile I would want to see a lot more evidence than what is in those links

Where's this petition online? How many have signed it?

I'm starting it tomorrow

Jesus!!!

LOL-don't worry I'm only joking around
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: LooseCannon on June 14, 2020, 12:39:55 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 09:35:15 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 10, 2020, 09:28:19 PM
Aye, Mickey Marley.

Had to google that.

Isn't it odd that very few clubs commemorate working class/labour figures. Always the catholic nationalist side.

Dozens of Pearses. One named after Connolly. And thats in Glasgow.

Are amy GAA clubs named after women who aren't St. Bridget?
St Rynagh's x2 in OY.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 14, 2020, 12:43:23 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:34:58 AM


But here's the part you're missing......John Mitchell absolutely WAS an appropriate person to name a GAA Club after.....135 years ago..... when GAA were very much part of the effort to gain Independence from Britain

No, he wasn't.

It isn't his activities in the last 135 years that are leading to calls to strip his name from GAA clubs.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 14, 2020, 12:54:40 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 09:35:15 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 10, 2020, 09:28:19 PM
Aye, Mickey Marley.

Had to google that.

Isn't it odd that very few clubs commemorate working class/labour figures. Always the catholic nationalist side.

Dozens of Pearses. One named after Connolly. And thats in Glasgow.

Are amy GAA clubs named after women who aren't St. Bridget?

I suppose Michael Davitt would fall into that category. I take the point in general though. The lack of commemoration of James Connolly in the GAA is very odd. Neither is Jim Larkin featured. Well, perhaps not so odd when you consider the influence the Catholic Church had throughout the GAA. The Catholic Church in Ireland was always staunchly opposed to socialism.




Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:59:47 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 14, 2020, 12:43:23 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:34:58 AM


But here's the part you're missing......John Mitchell absolutely WAS an appropriate person to name a GAA Club after.....135 years ago..... when GAA were very much part of the effort to gain Independence from Britain

No, he wasn't.

It isn't his activities in the last 135 years that are leading to calls to strip his name from GAA clubs.

He was, otherwise they wouldn't have done it and GAA HQ would not have approved the names
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 14, 2020, 01:11:17 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 14, 2020, 12:32:23 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 13, 2020, 11:44:45 PM
If John Mitchel is an appropriate person to name GAA clubs after, maybe Tom Humphries could have a camogie club named after him? After all, he did a lot to promote the sport, frequently mentioning it in his columns - and he was a mentor at St. Vincent's.

But you'd have to overlook the, em, child sex abuse he committed while a mentor.

Still, if people are willing to overlook John Mitchel's propagandising for racism and slavery, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch?

So again, this is tiresome. We are sticking child abusers and advocates for slavery in the same boat? You may stick Lincoln in that boat also
I'm not quite sure which category you're attempting to mitigate but, whichever it is, it's really weird.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 14, 2020, 01:39:48 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 08:02:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 13, 2020, 07:51:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

I did not demand that.

Apologies if I misunderstood one of your prior posts

"Personally, I think it is absolutely a matter for the wider GAA, but reasonable people can disagree."

So non club members or a bureaucrat in GAA HQ gets to dictate to a club who've been in existence for 100 years what their name should be?

Let the club and their members make the decision and let everyone else mind their own business

I absolutely think it is a matter for the wider GAA... to discuss and consider. This is a difficult issue for all of the reasons that have been suggested. But the perception and reputation of the GAA is potentially a factor, hence my leaning towards it not just being the affair of an individual club.

However, I didn't demand the removal of his name.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Gmac on June 14, 2020, 01:41:20 AM
You could go back and forth on this for weeks can we do a poll on it ?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 01:50:04 AM
Quote from: J70 on June 14, 2020, 01:39:48 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 08:02:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 13, 2020, 07:51:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

I did not demand that.

Apologies if I misunderstood one of your prior posts

"Personally, I think it is absolutely a matter for the wider GAA, but reasonable people can disagree."

So non club members or a bureaucrat in GAA HQ gets to dictate to a club who've been in existence for 100 years what their name should be?

Let the club and their members make the decision and let everyone else mind their own business

I absolutely think it is a matter for the wider GAA... to discuss and consider. This is a difficult issue for all of the reasons that have been suggested. But the perception and reputation of the GAA is potentially a factor, hence my leaning towards it not just being the affair of an individual club.

However, I didn't demand the removal of his name.

So if one of the clubs in question says thanks for your input but we're keeping the name what is your response?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Eire90 on June 14, 2020, 07:09:37 AM
Someone should turn up with a north korea flag at gaa event just to confuse them half the clowns probably wont know it anyway
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Maiden1 on June 14, 2020, 08:55:40 AM
Quote from: LooseCannon on June 14, 2020, 12:39:55 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 09:35:15 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 10, 2020, 09:28:19 PM
Aye, Mickey Marley.

Had to google that.

Isn't it odd that very few clubs commemorate working class/labour figures. Always the catholic nationalist side.

Dozens of Pearses. One named after Connolly. And thats in Glasgow.

Are amy GAA clubs named after women who aren't St. Bridget?
St Rynagh's x2 in OY.
St Marys Burren
St Bronagh Rostrevor
St Dympna Dromore
St Teresa Belfast
St Agnes Belfast
St Ita Cork

There are probably loads more
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 14, 2020, 09:13:50 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 01:50:04 AM
Quote from: J70 on June 14, 2020, 01:39:48 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 08:02:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 13, 2020, 07:51:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

I did not demand that.

Apologies if I misunderstood one of your prior posts

"Personally, I think it is absolutely a matter for the wider GAA, but reasonable people can disagree."

So non club members or a bureaucrat in GAA HQ gets to dictate to a club who've been in existence for 100 years what their name should be?

Let the club and their members make the decision and let everyone else mind their own business

I absolutely think it is a matter for the wider GAA... to discuss and consider. This is a difficult issue for all of the reasons that have been suggested. But the perception and reputation of the GAA is potentially a factor, hence my leaning towards it not just being the affair of an individual club.

However, I didn't demand the removal of his name.

So if one of the clubs in question says thanks for your input but we're keeping the name what is your response?

You either
(a) accept their decision (but publicly denounce their decision) and allow them to fend for themselves when it comes to media and society's criticism or;
(b) kick them out of the Association   
(c) create a criteria (that applies retrospectively) which mandates how all clubs must be named across the island (e.g. no political figures, no religious figures, or figures otherwise that will bring the Association into disrepute)

None are pretty but those are the options.

I'd go for a - you can't make them change without opening a Pandora's box regarding the naming of grounds, clubs, cups after physical force republicans, religious figures etc so condemn their decision, encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place but in the short term accept they have made their bed and are prepared to lie in it
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 14, 2020, 09:31:33 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 09:13:50 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 01:50:04 AM
Quote from: J70 on June 14, 2020, 01:39:48 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 08:02:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 13, 2020, 07:51:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

I did not demand that.

Apologies if I misunderstood one of your prior posts

"Personally, I think it is absolutely a matter for the wider GAA, but reasonable people can disagree."

So non club members or a bureaucrat in GAA HQ gets to dictate to a club who've been in existence for 100 years what their name should be?

Let the club and their members make the decision and let everyone else mind their own business

I absolutely think it is a matter for the wider GAA... to discuss and consider. This is a difficult issue for all of the reasons that have been suggested. But the perception and reputation of the GAA is potentially a factor, hence my leaning towards it not just being the affair of an individual club.

However, I didn't demand the removal of his name.

So if one of the clubs in question says thanks for your input but we're keeping the name what is your response?

You either
(a) accept their decision (but publicly denounce their decision) and allow them to fend for themselves when it comes to media and society's criticism or;
(b) kick them out of the Association   
(c) create a criteria (that applies retrospectively) which mandates how all clubs must be named across the island (e.g. no political figures, no religious figures, or figures otherwise that will bring the Association into disrepute)

None are pretty but those are the options.

I'd go for a - you can't make them change without opening a Pandora's box regarding the naming of grounds, clubs, cups after physical force republicans, religious figures etc so condemn their decision, encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place but in the short term accept they have made their bed and are prepared to lie in it

If a new club is founded and named after a local GAA person, but in 30 years time it's discovered he voted 'no' in the same sex marriage referendum.

Is this what the future snowflakes will have an issue with, akin to what they're currently having about John Mitchell? And will they then demand the club drop their name in 2050?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 14, 2020, 10:04:26 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 13, 2020, 11:06:39 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Hmm, paedo and person who advocated slavery are now in the same boat
The principle is the same. Can we just ignoee the bad when it suits us?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 14, 2020, 10:08:59 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 14, 2020, 09:31:33 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 09:13:50 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 01:50:04 AM
Quote from: J70 on June 14, 2020, 01:39:48 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 08:02:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 13, 2020, 07:51:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

I did not demand that.

Apologies if I misunderstood one of your prior posts

"Personally, I think it is absolutely a matter for the wider GAA, but reasonable people can disagree."

So non club members or a bureaucrat in GAA HQ gets to dictate to a club who've been in existence for 100 years what their name should be?

Let the club and their members make the decision and let everyone else mind their own business

I absolutely think it is a matter for the wider GAA... to discuss and consider. This is a difficult issue for all of the reasons that have been suggested. But the perception and reputation of the GAA is potentially a factor, hence my leaning towards it not just being the affair of an individual club.

However, I didn't demand the removal of his name.

So if one of the clubs in question says thanks for your input but we're keeping the name what is your response?

You either
(a) accept their decision (but publicly denounce their decision) and allow them to fend for themselves when it comes to media and society's criticism or;
(b) kick them out of the Association   
(c) create a criteria (that applies retrospectively) which mandates how all clubs must be named across the island (e.g. no political figures, no religious figures, or figures otherwise that will bring the Association into disrepute)

None are pretty but those are the options.

I'd go for a - you can't make them change without opening a Pandora's box regarding the naming of grounds, clubs, cups after physical force republicans, religious figures etc so condemn their decision, encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place but in the short term accept they have made their bed and are prepared to lie in it

If a new club is founded and named after a local GAA person, but in 30 years time it's discovered he voted 'no' in the same sex marriage referendum.

Is this what the future snowflakes will have an issue with, akin to what they're currently having about John Mitchell? And will they then demand the club drop their name in 2050?

A few things

You'll note I advocated option (a) not option (c).

Slavery & Racism (and its apologists) are not 'snowflake' issues.

Finally, if society in 50 years decides that's important enough to them for them to do that, then that will be a legitimate course of action.

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 14, 2020, 10:13:37 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 14, 2020, 10:04:26 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 13, 2020, 11:06:39 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Hmm, paedo and person who advocated slavery are now in the same boat
The principle is the same. Can we just ignoee the bad when it suits us?

Can we just stick to point of the thread rather than links to perverts? Use examples of racism for this would be best.

Slavery was never right, and I don't know if he had slaves himself or just wrote about it, he could have changed his mind when he came home from America and fought to break the chains of English rule here. Either way linking him to Saville is not the same principle ffs
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: naka on June 14, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.
Poor taste .

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 14, 2020, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front. 

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:50:47 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

Fair enough....that's what I thought your position was all along

So if the broader community (not just GAA members from other clubs) finds something offensive, I assume they should also be allowed to petition for a change? (Like the person on the Mayo blog a few years ago calling for the crest to be changed as it was exclusionary)

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 14, 2020, 01:01:01 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:50:47 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

Fair enough....that's what I thought your position was all along

So if the broader community (not just GAA members from other clubs) finds something offensive, I assume they should also be allowed to petition for a change? (Like the person on the Mayo blog a few years ago calling for the crest to be changed as it was exclusionary)

Yup.

The team/club/county/association in question could then make a decision in response to the petition, and accept the risk/rewards of it.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 14, 2020, 01:21:02 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 14, 2020, 10:13:37 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 14, 2020, 10:04:26 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 13, 2020, 11:06:39 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Hmm, paedo and person who advocated slavery are now in the same boat
The principle is the same. Can we just ignoee the bad when it suits us?

Can we just stick to point of the thread rather than links to perverts? Use examples of racism for this would be best.

Slavery was never right, and I don't know if he had slaves himself or just wrote about it, he could have changed his mind when he came home from America and fought to break the chains of English rule here. Either way linking him to Saville is not the same principle ffs

It wasn't, but in years to come, people will probably be appalled by their parents/grandparents generation that many people were against same sex marriage, and voted against it in the referendum.

And like I said earlier, if a club is set up now and named after Joe Bloggs, who it turned out, voted against SSM back in 2016 or whenever... will they demand Joe Bloggs' name removed from their club in 2050 as he will likely be looked on as homophobic?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: weareros on June 14, 2020, 01:31:33 PM
Perhaps it's time just to have clubs named after the townland. If you want something fancy, just add Gaels after the place (eg Western Gaels) or Harps, Eastern Harps, or if feeling very adventurous how about Slashers, like Longford Slashers. If you really need a name go with a Saint from long ago who may or may not even have existed, like Saint Bridget. Presumably any dirt would have shown up by now.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Eire90 on June 14, 2020, 01:55:48 PM
personally id rather have clubs just named after the area they are on more easy to recognize
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Eire90 on June 14, 2020, 01:56:56 PM
Bring american style names lol.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 02:14:47 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 01:01:01 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:50:47 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

Fair enough....that's what I thought your position was all along

So if the broader community (not just GAA members from other clubs) finds something offensive, I assume they should also be allowed to petition for a change? (Like the person on the Mayo blog a few years ago calling for the crest to be changed as it was exclusionary)

Yup.

The team/club/county/association in question could then make a decision in response to the petition, and accept the risk/rewards of it.

Jaysus.....I hope no one from the DUP is reading this blog. They could start petitioning for all sorts of name changes and then demand the withholding of any taxpayer funding if they don't get their way. They could also demand that sponsors of the offending clubs be prohibited from being given any govt contracts.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 14, 2020, 02:29:37 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 02:14:47 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 01:01:01 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:50:47 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

Fair enough....that's what I thought your position was all along

So if the broader community (not just GAA members from other clubs) finds something offensive, I assume they should also be allowed to petition for a change? (Like the person on the Mayo blog a few years ago calling for the crest to be changed as it was exclusionary)

Yup.

The team/club/county/association in question could then make a decision in response to the petition, and accept the risk/rewards of it.

Jaysus.....I hope no one from the DUP is reading this blog. They could start petitioning for all sorts of name changes and then demand the withholding of any taxpayer funding if they don't get their way. They could also demand that sponsors of the offending clubs be prohibited from being given any govt contracts.

I'll respond to your whataboutery and scaremongering and then steer us all back onto the main issue of this thread.

I don't know about you and yours, but any of the clubs  I know would happily face down the DUP in your contrived scenario. Regardless of whatever sanction they tried to enforce.

We're run by adults you see who can follow the logic of an argument even when it doesn't suit us, and if we need to face down bigotry (or indeed face down facetious petitions), or indeed positions others don't like, and pay a financial price we'd do that.

Thankfully however we won't have to it in retort to racism/slavery - which as I say is the whole point of this thread.

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 02:39:33 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

I think we may have gotten to the crux of the issue here with your use of the word "glorify".

Is retaining the name, "glorifying" that individual or is it simply a recognition of that persons role in the history of our country's fight for freedom.

In Castlebar, they have a Lucan Street called after a notorious local Landlord.  He was nicknamed  the "Great Exterminator" for his callous treatment of tenants during the famine when he evicted thousands and left tens of thousands of others to starve to death.

Following your logic, the people of Castlebar are "glorifying" Lord Lucan by retaining the name of the street!

There has actually been debate over the years about changing it, but the majority of the residents want it retained because it helps keep the memory of those who perished very much alive
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: tonto1888 on June 14, 2020, 02:42:38 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 14, 2020, 01:21:02 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 14, 2020, 10:13:37 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 14, 2020, 10:04:26 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 13, 2020, 11:06:39 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Hmm, paedo and person who advocated slavery are now in the same boat
The principle is the same. Can we just ignoee the bad when it suits us?

Can we just stick to point of the thread rather than links to perverts? Use examples of racism for this would be best.

Slavery was never right, and I don't know if he had slaves himself or just wrote about it, he could have changed his mind when he came home from America and fought to break the chains of English rule here. Either way linking him to Saville is not the same principle ffs

It wasn't, but in years to come, people will probably be appalled by their parents/grandparents generation that many people were against same sex marriage, and voted against it in the referendum.

And like I said earlier, if a club is set up now and named after Joe Bloggs, who it turned out, voted against SSM back in 2016 or whenever... will they demand Joe Bloggs' name removed from their club in 2050 as he will likely be looked on as homophobic?

Voting no in that referendum will never be in the same league as supporting/being involved in slavery
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 02:52:47 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 02:29:37 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 02:14:47 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 01:01:01 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:50:47 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

Fair enough....that's what I thought your position was all along

So if the broader community (not just GAA members from other clubs) finds something offensive, I assume they should also be allowed to petition for a change? (Like the person on the Mayo blog a few years ago calling for the crest to be changed as it was exclusionary)

Yup.

The team/club/county/association in question could then make a decision in response to the petition, and accept the risk/rewards of it.

Jaysus.....I hope no one from the DUP is reading this blog. They could start petitioning for all sorts of name changes and then demand the withholding of any taxpayer funding if they don't get their way. They could also demand that sponsors of the offending clubs be prohibited from being given any govt contracts.

I'll respond to your whataboutery and scaremongering and then steer us all back onto the main issue of this thread.

I don't know about you and yours, but any of the clubs  I know would happily face down the DUP in your contrived scenario. Regardless of whatever sanction they tried to enforce.

We're run by adults you see who can follow the logic of an argument even when it doesn't suit us, and if we need to face down bigotry (or indeed face down facetious petitions), or indeed positions others don't like, and pay a financial price we'd do that.

Thankfully however we won't have to it in retort to racism/slavery - which as I say is the whole point of this thread.

Fair enough, but read what J70 said

If the GAA demands a name change and a club refuses to comply,  they then would no longer be eligible to receive grants and the club sponsors should also have retribution exacted upon them

And the request for the  name change, according to J70s criteria, can come from anyone in the broader community
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: larryin89 on June 14, 2020, 03:00:54 PM
Load of nonsense and all clubs and counties should have a "up de RA " logo on them too.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 14, 2020, 03:03:18 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 02:39:33 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

I think we may have gotten to the crux of the issue here with your use of the word "glorify".

Is retaining the name, "glorifying" that individual or is it simply a recognition of that persons role in the history of our country's fight for freedom.

In Castlebar, they have a Lucan Street called after a notorious local Landlord.  He was nicknamed  the "Great Exterminator" for his callous treatment of tenants during the famine when he evicted thousands and left tens of thousands of others to starve to death.

Following your logic, the people of Castlebar are "glorifying" Lord Lucan by retaining the name of the street!

There has actually been debate over the years about changing it, but the majority of the residents want it retained because it helps keep the memory of those who perished very much alive

If you name a club after someone you are endorsing them as someone worthy of esteem.

I can't claim to have though too much about street names but my instinct is that I'd have sympathy for removing them too.

All that being said, if victims or their descendants want names retained for whatever reason I don't think I'd be able venture any argument that would trump that. That's a victim's/descendants prerogative imo.

That's a different thing though to what we are discussing here.

I don't think any victims/descendants are asking for John Mitchell's name to remain on GAA clubs as an educational effort or act of remembrance for victims
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 14, 2020, 03:03:26 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on June 14, 2020, 01:56:56 PM
Bring american style names lol.

Dingle Dolphins?
Real Salthill?
Killarney Lakers?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 03:09:22 PM
Mayo's most famous hurling club actually have "The Devil" in their logo (because the only other exciting thing to have ever happened in Tooreen is that the Devil supposedly appeared at their local dance hall back in the 1960s)

I suppose will be accusing them of Satanism next
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 14, 2020, 03:12:33 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 14, 2020, 02:42:38 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 14, 2020, 01:21:02 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 14, 2020, 10:13:37 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 14, 2020, 10:04:26 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 13, 2020, 11:06:39 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.

Hmm, paedo and person who advocated slavery are now in the same boat
The principle is the same. Can we just ignoee the bad when it suits us?

Can we just stick to point of the thread rather than links to perverts? Use examples of racism for this would be best.

Slavery was never right, and I don't know if he had slaves himself or just wrote about it, he could have changed his mind when he came home from America and fought to break the chains of English rule here. Either way linking him to Saville is not the same principle ffs

It wasn't, but in years to come, people will probably be appalled by their parents/grandparents generation that many people were against same sex marriage, and voted against it in the referendum.

And like I said earlier, if a club is set up now and named after Joe Bloggs, who it turned out, voted against SSM back in 2016 or whenever... will they demand Joe Bloggs' name removed from their club in 2050 as he will likely be looked on as homophobic?

Voting no in that referendum will never be in the same league as supporting/being involved in slavery

For some people, it might be.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 03:39:29 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 03:03:18 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 02:39:33 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

I think we may have gotten to the crux of the issue here with your use of the word "glorify".

Is retaining the name, "glorifying" that individual or is it simply a recognition of that persons role in the history of our country's fight for freedom.

In Castlebar, they have a Lucan Street called after a notorious local Landlord.  He was nicknamed  the "Great Exterminator" for his callous treatment of tenants during the famine when he evicted thousands and left tens of thousands of others to starve to death.

Following your logic, the people of Castlebar are "glorifying" Lord Lucan by retaining the name of the street!

There has actually been debate over the years about changing it, but the majority of the residents want it retained because it helps keep the memory of those who perished very much alive

If you name a club after someone you are endorsing them as someone worthy of esteem.

I can't claim to have though too much about street names but my instinct is that I'd have sympathy for removing them too.

All that being said, if victims or their descendants want names retained for whatever reason I don't think I'd be able venture any argument that would trump that. That's a victim's/descendants prerogative imo.

That's a different thing though to what we are discussing here.

I don't think any victims/descendants are asking for John Mitchell's name to remain on GAA clubs as an educational effort or act of remembrance for victims

And how many descendants of victims of the Confederacy live in Newry, Castlebar or Tralee.

I'm not a betting person, but I'd say zero is a pretty good bet.

So others are now taking it upon themselves to be outraged on their behalf.

I could concoct all types of things I could be outraged about if I started playing connect the dots
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 14, 2020, 04:12:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 03:39:29 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 03:03:18 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 02:39:33 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

Yeah that is more or less an accurate summary. I stand over it. .

Actions have consequences - it shouldn't really be surprising that people won't want to be associated with slavery or racism - so if you choose to equivocate on certain aspects of those issues (e.g. glorifying apologists for slavery and racism) then be prepared for sponsors and central authorities to be reluctant to support you going forward. I for one would encourage that reluctance.

If a community chooses to keep the name, then they should pony up the money within the community to fund themselves  going forward - and fight their own battles on the media/public appearances front.

I think we may have gotten to the crux of the issue here with your use of the word "glorify".

Is retaining the name, "glorifying" that individual or is it simply a recognition of that persons role in the history of our country's fight for freedom.

In Castlebar, they have a Lucan Street called after a notorious local Landlord.  He was nicknamed  the "Great Exterminator" for his callous treatment of tenants during the famine when he evicted thousands and left tens of thousands of others to starve to death.

Following your logic, the people of Castlebar are "glorifying" Lord Lucan by retaining the name of the street!

There has actually been debate over the years about changing it, but the majority of the residents want it retained because it helps keep the memory of those who perished very much alive

If you name a club after someone you are endorsing them as someone worthy of esteem.

I can't claim to have though too much about street names but my instinct is that I'd have sympathy for removing them too.

All that being said, if victims or their descendants want names retained for whatever reason I don't think I'd be able venture any argument that would trump that. That's a victim's/descendants prerogative imo.

That's a different thing though to what we are discussing here.

I don't think any victims/descendants are asking for John Mitchell's name to remain on GAA clubs as an educational effort or act of remembrance for victims

And how many descendants of victims of the Confederacy live in Newry, Castlebar or Tralee.

I'm not a betting person, but I'd say zero is a pretty good bet.

So others are now taking it upon themselves to be outraged on their behalf.

I could concoct all types of things I could be outraged about if I started playing connect the dots

Ah now I think I'm seeing your point. He only advocated killing a heap of black peoples years ago, and because they weren't from Newry, Tralee and Castlebar he's a grand fella to name a club after.

Have I got that right or have I failed to join the dots properly? 
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Rossfan on June 14, 2020, 04:28:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 03:09:22 PM
Mayo's most famous hurling club actually have "The Devil" in their logo (because the only other exciting thing to have ever happened in Tooreen is that the Devil supposedly appeared at their local dance hall back in the 1960s)

I suppose will be accusing them of Satanism next

Very apt for that land of darkness and evil.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 14, 2020, 04:59:49 PM
Be interesting if the members of each of the clubs named after John Mitchel held a vote on the following question:

"Do you want the club to be associated with racism and slavery?"

I wonder how the votes would go?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Rossfan on June 14, 2020, 05:07:43 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 14, 2020, 09:31:33 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 09:13:50 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 01:50:04 AM
Quote from: J70 on June 14, 2020, 01:39:48 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 08:02:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 13, 2020, 07:51:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 13, 2020, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 13, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
That's your credible evidence?
As I said, there's pretty strong evidence.....it's up to you whether you believe it or not

Where is this strong evidence because it certainly isn't in the links you posted

There's enough evidence to begin an online campaign to remove his name from Casement Park

Not in those links

LOL-and therein lies the crux of the issue my friend

You don't need evidence, you just need a large and loud enough mob online to start threatening to boycott sponsors etc to get the result you require

(And BTW-I'm just employing the same logic put forth by Sid and J70 for them demanding GAA Clubs disassociate themselves from  John Mitchel)

I did not demand that.

Apologies if I misunderstood one of your prior posts

"Personally, I think it is absolutely a matter for the wider GAA, but reasonable people can disagree."

So non club members or a bureaucrat in GAA HQ gets to dictate to a club who've been in existence for 100 years what their name should be?

Let the club and their members make the decision and let everyone else mind their own business

I absolutely think it is a matter for the wider GAA... to discuss and consider. This is a difficult issue for all of the reasons that have been suggested. But the perception and reputation of the GAA is potentially a factor, hence my leaning towards it not just being the affair of an individual club.

However, I didn't demand the removal of his name.

So if one of the clubs in question says thanks for your input but we're keeping the name what is your response?

You either
(a) accept their decision (but publicly denounce their decision) and allow them to fend for themselves when it comes to media and society's criticism or;
(b) kick them out of the Association   
(c) create a criteria (that applies retrospectively) which mandates how all clubs must be named across the island (e.g. no political figures, no religious figures, or figures otherwise that will bring the Association into disrepute)

None are pretty but those are the options.

I'd go for a - you can't make them change without opening a Pandora's box regarding the naming of grounds, clubs, cups after physical force republicans, religious figures etc so condemn their decision, encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place but in the short term accept they have made their bed and are prepared to lie in it

If a new club is founded and named after a local GAA person, but in 30 years time it's discovered he voted 'no' in the same sex marriage referendum.

Is this what the future snowflakes will have an issue with, akin to what they're currently having about John Mitchell? And will they then demand the club drop their name in 2050?
Errigal Ciaran St. Mickey Hartes could be in bother....
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 14, 2020, 05:09:27 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 03:39:29 PM

And how many descendants of victims of the Confederacy live in Newry, Castlebar or Tralee.

I'm not a betting person, but I'd say zero is a pretty good bet.


So others are now taking it upon themselves to be outraged on their behalf.

I could concoct all types of things I could be outraged about if I started playing connect the dots
How many descendants of Auschwitz survivors live in Newry, Castlebar or Tralee?

Not many, I'd say.

How many live in Glenullin?

I'm not a betting person either, but I'd say zero is a pretty good bet.

So according to your logic, there should be no problem with naming a GAA club in such places after a Nazi.

Bleedin non-Jews taking it on themselves to be outraged at Nazi ideology. That's literally your logic.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 14, 2020, 05:15:00 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 14, 2020, 09:31:33 AM

If a new club is founded and named after a local GAA person, but in 30 years time it's discovered he voted 'no' in the same sex marriage referendum.

Is this what the future snowflakes will have an issue with, akin to what they're currently having about John Mitchell? And will they then demand the club drop their name in 2050?
The mental gymnastics some people will willingly perform to defend the celebration of propagandists for the dehumanisation and enslavement of black people is most, ahem, "interesting".
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 05:29:18 PM
Tipperary will have to find a new song to celebrate their next All Ireland victory.....Dan Breen was a big supporter of the Nazis

https://www.google.com/amp/s/punditarena.com/gaa/thepateam/tipperary-galtee-mountain-boy/amp/
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 14, 2020, 06:43:25 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
So according to J70 GAA clubs now have to bow to the mob otherwise he and others would "encourage sponsors to boycott them, refuse them all grants etc as long as the name remains in place"

So while you say youre not  "demanding" they change their name, if they don't, well, you'll essentially shut them down because no club can survive without sponsors and grants

Everyone should sit back and actually think about what he just said

I never said any such thing.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 14, 2020, 06:53:54 PM
Did chief look after your own club, if I'm fact you are associated with one.

If and it's a big if, those clubs care to discuss this they'll do so without your input or considerations
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 14, 2020, 07:08:57 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 14, 2020, 05:15:00 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 14, 2020, 09:31:33 AM

If a new club is founded and named after a local GAA person, but in 30 years time it's discovered he voted 'no' in the same sex marriage referendum.

Is this what the future snowflakes will have an issue with, akin to what they're currently having about John Mitchell? And will they then demand the club drop their name in 2050?
The mental gymnastics some people will willingly perform to defend the celebration of propagandists for the dehumanisation and enslavement of black people is most, ahem, "interesting".

Who or what am I supposed to be defending?

By the way, it wasn't just black people who were slaves.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 07:17:07 PM
This is fantastic

We've laid out the ground rules (or at least J70 has)

If a member of the public, or a member of another GAA club,  finds the name of your Team, Pitch, Cup or Crest offensive, they should petition Croke Park with a view to forcing you to change it

If after input from all interested parties, GAA HQ orders you to change it and you don't, you will no longer qualify for any grant money from Croke Park. In addition the broader population should Be encouraged to boycott your sponsors to "persuade "them to stop sponsoring you
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 14, 2020, 07:48:33 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 07:17:07 PM
This is fantastic

We've laid out the ground rules (or at least J70 has)

If a member of the public, or a member of another GAA club,  finds the name of your Team, Pitch, Cup or Crest offensive, they should petition Croke Park with a view to forcing you to change it

If after input from all interested parties, GAA HQ orders you to change it and you don't, you will no longer qualify for any grant money from Croke Park. In addition the broader population should Be encouraged to boycott your sponsors to "persuade "them to stop sponsoring you

Why in under god do you keep attributing things I say to J70?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Rossfan on June 14, 2020, 07:51:43 PM
Because he's a Mayoyank ;D
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 14, 2020, 07:56:46 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 07:17:07 PM
This is fantastic

We've laid out the ground rules (or at least J70 has)

If a member of the public, or a member of another GAA club,  finds the name of your Team, Pitch, Cup or Crest offensive, they should petition Croke Park with a view to forcing you to change it

If after input from all interested parties, GAA HQ orders you to change it and you don't, you will no longer qualify for any grant money from Croke Park. In addition the broader population should Be encouraged to boycott your sponsors to "persuade "them to stop sponsoring you

Yeah - like I openly admitted before I'm all for using financial pressure to stop the glorification of racists and their apologists. I'm happy enough to stand over that statement quite plainly.

I struggle to understand why you think repeatedly restating my argument is somehow going to change that.

As for your ground rules, I'm not sure you ever did "join the dots for me" in my previous post. Is it your position that any team, pitch, club or crest can be named after anybody that condoned or committed atrocities, providing of course the victims of the atrocities are not actually in the relevant area?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 14, 2020, 07:59:02 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 14, 2020, 06:53:54 PM
Did chief look after your own club, if I'm fact you are associated with one.

If and it's a big if, those clubs care to discuss this they'll do so without your input or considerations

Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 14, 2020, 08:23:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 07:17:07 PM
This is fantastic

We've laid out the ground rules (or at least J70 has)

If a member of the public, or a member of another GAA club,  finds the name of your Team, Pitch, Cup or Crest offensive, they should petition Croke Park with a view to forcing you to change it

If after input from all interested parties, GAA HQ orders you to change it and you don't, you will no longer qualify for any grant money from Croke Park. In addition the broader population should Be encouraged to boycott your sponsors to "persuade "them to stop sponsoring you

Are you on the drink??
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 14, 2020, 08:35:53 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 14, 2020, 08:23:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 07:17:07 PM
This is fantastic

We've laid out the ground rules (or at least J70 has)

If a member of the public, or a member of another GAA club,  finds the name of your Team, Pitch, Cup or Crest offensive, they should petition Croke Park with a view to forcing you to change it

If after input from all interested parties, GAA HQ orders you to change it and you don't, you will no longer qualify for any grant money from Croke Park. In addition the broader population should Be encouraged to boycott your sponsors to "persuade "them to stop sponsoring you

Are you on the drink??

Apparently all my posts get attributed to you now.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 08:40:52 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 08:35:53 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 14, 2020, 08:23:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 07:17:07 PM
This is fantastic

We've laid out the ground rules (or at least J70 has)

If a member of the public, or a member of another GAA club,  finds the name of your Team, Pitch, Cup or Crest offensive, they should petition Croke Park with a view to forcing you to change it

If after input from all interested parties, GAA HQ orders you to change it and you don't, you will no longer qualify for any grant money from Croke Park. In addition the broader population should Be encouraged to boycott your sponsors to "persuade "them to stop sponsoring you

Are you on the drink??

Apparently all my posts get attributed to you now.

Both of you lay out your positions please....I'm having a hard time distinguishing
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: grounded on June 14, 2020, 08:55:14 PM
Please God let the football/hurling start soon, maybe poster's might be too busy arguing the form of their county/club than this craic.

P.s. im sorry if using the term ' God ' offended anybody.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Ed Ricketts on June 14, 2020, 09:35:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 08:40:52 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 08:35:53 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 14, 2020, 08:23:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 07:17:07 PM
This is fantastic

We've laid out the ground rules (or at least J70 has)

If a member of the public, or a member of another GAA club,  finds the name of your Team, Pitch, Cup or Crest offensive, they should petition Croke Park with a view to forcing you to change it

If after input from all interested parties, GAA HQ orders you to change it and you don't, you will no longer qualify for any grant money from Croke Park. In addition the broader population should Be encouraged to boycott your sponsors to "persuade "them to stop sponsoring you

Are you on the drink??

Apparently all my posts get attributed to you now.

Both of you lay out your positions please....I'm having a hard time distinguishing

Fairly clear what their positions are if you bothered your hole trying to read them.

It's a very special sort of clown that takes all day to figure out with whom he's actually arguing.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 14, 2020, 10:56:53 PM
Quote from: Ed Ricketts on June 14, 2020, 09:35:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 08:40:52 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 14, 2020, 08:35:53 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 14, 2020, 08:23:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 14, 2020, 07:17:07 PM
This is fantastic

We've laid out the ground rules (or at least J70 has)

If a member of the public, or a member of another GAA club,  finds the name of your Team, Pitch, Cup or Crest offensive, they should petition Croke Park with a view to forcing you to change it

If after input from all interested parties, GAA HQ orders you to change it and you don't, you will no longer qualify for any grant money from Croke Park. In addition the broader population should Be encouraged to boycott your sponsors to "persuade "them to stop sponsoring you

Are you on the drink??

Apparently all my posts get attributed to you now.

Both of you lay out your positions please....I'm having a hard time distinguishing

Fairly clear what their positions are if you bothered your hole trying to read them.

It's a very special sort of clown that takes all day to figure out with whom he's actually arguing.
Well he/she actually started responding to posts addressed directly to J70 and I (mistakingly) thought J70 had a separate username
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 12:25:21 AM
Quote from: naka on June 14, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.
Poor taste .

It's not. Its the conclusion of that narrow logic.

Mitchel was an extreme racist, but ignore that, he was sound on the national question.

Then we can easily ignore Churchills racism and the Tans or Stalins genocide, sure they beat the Nazis. So what if Michael Jackson raped kids, he invented a dance. Saville built a whole focking hospital.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: macdanger2 on June 15, 2020, 01:29:17 AM
Someone listed clubs named after saints earlier but I can't think of a single one in Mayo - are there any?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 15, 2020, 02:00:23 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 12:25:21 AM
Quote from: naka on June 14, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.
Poor taste .

It's not. Its the conclusion of that narrow logic.

Mitchel was an extreme racist, but ignore that, he was sound on the national question.

Then we can easily ignore Churchills racism and the Tans or Stalins genocide, sure they beat the Nazis. So what if Michael Jackson raped kids, he invented a dance. Saville built a whole focking hospital.

Tipperary are going to have to find a new cup for their Senior Hurling Champions....Dan Breen Cup is  no longer acceptable and should be melted down

Dan Breen was a big supporter of the Nazis



Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 15, 2020, 05:28:25 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 02:00:23 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 12:25:21 AM
Quote from: naka on June 14, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.
Poor taste .

It's not. Its the conclusion of that narrow logic.

Mitchel was an extreme racist, but ignore that, he was sound on the national question.

Then we can easily ignore Churchills racism and the Tans or Stalins genocide, sure they beat the Nazis. So what if Michael Jackson raped kids, he invented a dance. Saville built a whole focking hospital.

Tipperary are going to have to find a new cup for their Senior Hurling Champions....Dan Breen Cup is  no longer acceptable and should be melted down

Dan Breen was a big supporter of the Nazis

I've no idea if that's true or not. 

I'd be sorely disappointed if it was. I'd always considered him a National hero due to his leadership in the War of Independence 

But let's say it is.

Are you ok with a cup named after a Nazi sympathiser?

Or again am I wrong in concluding that because there are no Jews hurling in Tipperary right now (again no idea if that's true or not) you think that Nazi sympathisers are grand fellas to name cups after? As I say you never did "join the dots for me"?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Never beat the deeler on June 15, 2020, 06:22:33 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 15, 2020, 01:29:17 AM
Someone listed clubs named after saints earlier but I can't think of a single one in Mayo - are there any?


not that I know of. Most of the clubs in Mayo are just the parish name.

Crossmolina, Ballina, Castlebar, Charlestown, Davitts x 2 the only 'named' clubs I can think of. I suppose Eastern Gales and Mayo Gaels also
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 15, 2020, 08:22:25 AM
Some fuckwits on this thread now! So John Mitchell is up there with Michael Jackson Jimmy Saville Himmler and Churchill

The guy was a slavery supporter he was quoted saying the slaves were treated better than the Irish back home, he ran a newspaper (unsuccessfully) his children died in the war for the confederacy, no talk of owning slaves beating slaves or rapping them, this practice of owning slaves was legal at the time though it was completely wrong. But he came back to Ireland and his focus wasn't slaves or the confederates it was freeing Ireland.

Was he wrong with his views? Yes, should his name be tarnished because of that? Completely, but his lasting memory won't be What he did in America.

The clubs will no doubt talk about it but I'd be very surprised they'll change their name
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 08:29:27 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 15, 2020, 05:28:25 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 02:00:23 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 12:25:21 AM
Quote from: naka on June 14, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.
Poor taste .

It's not. Its the conclusion of that narrow logic.

Mitchel was an extreme racist, but ignore that, he was sound on the national question.

Then we can easily ignore Churchills racism and the Tans or Stalins genocide, sure they beat the Nazis. So what if Michael Jackson raped kids, he invented a dance. Saville built a whole focking hospital.

Tipperary are going to have to find a new cup for their Senior Hurling Champions....Dan Breen Cup is  no longer acceptable and should be melted down

Dan Breen was a big supporter of the Nazis

I've no idea if that's true or not. 

I'd be sorely disappointed if it was. I'd always considered him a National hero due to his leadership in the War of Independence 

But let's say it is.

Are you ok with a cup named after a Nazi sympathiser?

Or again am I wrong in concluding that because there are no Jews hurling in Tipperary right now (again no idea if that's true or not) you think that Nazi sympathisers are grand fellas to name cups after? As I say you never did "join the dots for me"?
Oh Dan Breen was indeed a Nazi supporter, and he remained unapologetic afterwards.

Sure he even carried a Nazi spy's coffin.

Breen was a bloodthirsty lunatic and certainly no hero.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 08:38:59 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 15, 2020, 08:22:25 AM
Some fuckwits on this thread now! So John Mitchell is up there with Michael Jackson Jimmy Saville Himmler and Churchill

The guy was a slavery supporter he was quoted saying the slaves were treated better than the Irish back home, he ran a newspaper (unsuccessfully) his children died in the war for the confederacy, no talk of owning slaves beating slaves or rapping them, this practice of owning slaves was legal at the time though it was completely wrong. But he came back to Ireland and his focus wasn't slaves or the confederates it was freeing Ireland.

Was he wrong with his views? Yes, should his name be tarnished because of that? Completely, but his lasting memory won't be What he did in America.

The clubs will no doubt talk about it but I'd be very surprised they'll change their name
A lot of terrible things were "legal".

Mitchel himself, not just his sons, served in the confederate army during the US Civil War.

Funny you mention Churchill in the same breath as Himmler.

So you obviously think Churchill's statue should be removed?




Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 15, 2020, 10:48:58 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 08:38:59 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 15, 2020, 08:22:25 AM
Some fuckwits on this thread now! So John Mitchell is up there with Michael Jackson Jimmy Saville Himmler and Churchill

The guy was a slavery supporter he was quoted saying the slaves were treated better than the Irish back home, he ran a newspaper (unsuccessfully) his children died in the war for the confederacy, no talk of owning slaves beating slaves or rapping them, this practice of owning slaves was legal at the time though it was completely wrong. But he came back to Ireland and his focus wasn't slaves or the confederates it was freeing Ireland.

Was he wrong with his views? Yes, should his name be tarnished because of that? Completely, but his lasting memory won't be What he did in America.

The clubs will no doubt talk about it but I'd be very surprised they'll change their name
A lot of terrible things were "legal".

Mitchel himself, not just his sons, served in the confederate army during the US Civil War.

Funny you mention Churchill in the same breath as Himmler.

So you obviously think Churchill's statue should be removed?

Here's the thing, I didn't mention him, people are bringing these names up in what about this and what about him and blah blah. Removing statues? We've jumped from clubs being named after someone who served in the confederate army to removing statues of Churchill!

It's the fuckwits that change the topic with the other shit. People like you
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 15, 2020, 10:50:56 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 08:29:27 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 15, 2020, 05:28:25 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 02:00:23 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 12:25:21 AM
Quote from: naka on June 14, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.
Poor taste .

It's not. Its the conclusion of that narrow logic.

Mitchel was an extreme racist, but ignore that, he was sound on the national question.

Then we can easily ignore Churchills racism and the Tans or Stalins genocide, sure they beat the Nazis. So what if Michael Jackson raped kids, he invented a dance. Saville built a whole focking hospital.

Tipperary are going to have to find a new cup for their Senior Hurling Champions....Dan Breen Cup is  no longer acceptable and should be melted down

Dan Breen was a big supporter of the Nazis

I've no idea if that's true or not. 

I'd be sorely disappointed if it was. I'd always considered him a National hero due to his leadership in the War of Independence 

But let's say it is.

Are you ok with a cup named after a Nazi sympathiser?

Or again am I wrong in concluding that because there are no Jews hurling in Tipperary right now (again no idea if that's true or not) you think that Nazi sympathisers are grand fellas to name cups after? As I say you never did "join the dots for me"?
Oh Dan Breen was indeed a Nazi supporter, and he remained unapologetic afterwards.

Sure he even carried a Nazi spy's coffin.

Breen was a bloodthirsty lunatic and certainly no hero.

Arthur Griffith-time up for him too

His newspaper supported the boycott of Jewish Business in Limerick

https://www.irelandisrael.ie/blog/anti-semitism-in-ireland/
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 15, 2020, 10:55:09 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 10:50:56 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 08:29:27 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 15, 2020, 05:28:25 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 02:00:23 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 12:25:21 AM
Quote from: naka on June 14, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.
Poor taste .

It's not. Its the conclusion of that narrow logic.

Mitchel was an extreme racist, but ignore that, he was sound on the national question.

Then we can easily ignore Churchills racism and the Tans or Stalins genocide, sure they beat the Nazis. So what if Michael Jackson raped kids, he invented a dance. Saville built a whole focking hospital.

Tipperary are going to have to find a new cup for their Senior Hurling Champions....Dan Breen Cup is  no longer acceptable and should be melted down

Dan Breen was a big supporter of the Nazis

I've no idea if that's true or not. 

I'd be sorely disappointed if it was. I'd always considered him a National hero due to his leadership in the War of Independence 

But let's say it is.

Are you ok with a cup named after a Nazi sympathiser?

Or again am I wrong in concluding that because there are no Jews hurling in Tipperary right now (again no idea if that's true or not) you think that Nazi sympathisers are grand fellas to name cups after? As I say you never did "join the dots for me"?
Oh Dan Breen was indeed a Nazi supporter, and he remained unapologetic afterwards.

Sure he even carried a Nazi spy's coffin.

Breen was a bloodthirsty lunatic and certainly no hero.

Arthur Griffith-time up for him too

His newspaper supported the boycott of Jewish Business in Limerick

https://www.irelandisrael.ie/blog/anti-semitism-in-ireland/

I see you are now straight up swerving my question now whitey. So far your whataboutery tactics in this debate have been as follows:

- Re-stating my position over and over again for some odd reason.
- What about the DUP?
- What about this street named after Lord Lucan? 
- What about Dan Breen?
- What about Arthur Griffith?
I'm sure everyone will draw their own conclusions from your silence on a simple question I asked you multiple times now.

Or are you maybe struggling to figure out who asked it again?

Anyway, please do share the next example you want to "what about" about after you've spent another hour on the internet looking for it. It only amplifies your silence.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 15, 2020, 11:20:03 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 15, 2020, 10:55:09 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 10:50:56 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 08:29:27 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 15, 2020, 05:28:25 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 02:00:23 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 12:25:21 AM
Quote from: naka on June 14, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.
Poor taste .

It's not. Its the conclusion of that narrow logic.

Mitchel was an extreme racist, but ignore that, he was sound on the national question.

Then we can easily ignore Churchills racism and the Tans or Stalins genocide, sure they beat the Nazis. So what if Michael Jackson raped kids, he invented a dance. Saville built a whole focking hospital.

Tipperary are going to have to find a new cup for their Senior Hurling Champions....Dan Breen Cup is  no longer acceptable and should be melted down

Dan Breen was a big supporter of the Nazis

I've no idea if that's true or not. 

I'd be sorely disappointed if it was. I'd always considered him a National hero due to his leadership in the War of Independence 

But let's say it is.

Are you ok with a cup named after a Nazi sympathiser?

Or again am I wrong in concluding that because there are no Jews hurling in Tipperary right now (again no idea if that's true or not) you think that Nazi sympathisers are grand fellas to name cups after? As I say you never did "join the dots for me"?
Oh Dan Breen was indeed a Nazi supporter, and he remained unapologetic afterwards.

Sure he even carried a Nazi spy's coffin.

Breen was a bloodthirsty lunatic and certainly no hero.

Arthur Griffith-time up for him too

His newspaper supported the boycott of Jewish Business in Limerick

https://www.irelandisrael.ie/blog/anti-semitism-in-ireland/

I see you are now straight up swerving my question now whitey.

I'm sure everyone will draw their own conclusions from your silence on a simple question.

Or are you maybe struggling to figure out who asked it again?

Oh....I now see it

Personally I am fine with a cup named after Dan Breen

His contribution to the fight for Irish Freedom far outweighs any "support" he gave the Nazis.

He and other Republicans were obviously attending the "my enemies enemy is my friend" school of thought.

But if we apply the John Mitchel standard......it has to go

History is complicated and people are complicated. We could probably go back and look at the ALL positions held by any number of historical figures and find things that are objectionable by today's standards. Picking on Mitchell is easy because slavery is abhorrent, but when you point a finger, you have three pointing back on yourself.

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Maiden1 on June 15, 2020, 11:58:38 AM
The best hope of avoiding controversy is to pick a saints name from about the 10th century that there only is about 2 lines written on, the lines are probably written by a monk in the 12 century and are going to portray the person as a saint so there is a good chance you should be fine with them.  Anyone post about 1800 there is a good chance there will be some dirt on them.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Ed Ricketts on June 15, 2020, 12:18:05 PM
How about a shift to memorialising the deed or cause rather than the person or people involved?

People have always been too complex and flawed to idolise in their totality. Most that we choose to elevate played parts in collective efforts anyway.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Rossfan on June 15, 2020, 12:53:49 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 15, 2020, 01:29:17 AM
Someone listed clubs named after saints earlier but I can't think of a single one in Mayo - are there any?
I wouldn't expect there to be in a County full of 😈👹.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 01:05:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 02:00:23 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 12:25:21 AM
Quote from: naka on June 14, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.
Poor taste .

It's not. Its the conclusion of that narrow logic.

Mitchel was an extreme racist, but ignore that, he was sound on the national question.

Then we can easily ignore Churchills racism and the Tans or Stalins genocide, sure they beat the Nazis. So what if Michael Jackson raped kids, he invented a dance. Saville built a whole focking hospital.

Tipperary are going to have to find a new cup for their Senior Hurling Champions....Dan Breen Cup is  no longer acceptable and should be melted down

Dan Breen was a big supporter of the Nazis

And these are the conversations we need to have.

Was he a big Nazi? Was he employed by the Nazis? Did he rag on Jews?

I think there is an objective difference between an unsavoury opinion and actual acts to further said agenda
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 15, 2020, 01:13:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 01:05:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 02:00:23 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 12:25:21 AM
Quote from: naka on June 14, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.
Poor taste .

It's not. Its the conclusion of that narrow logic.

Mitchel was an extreme racist, but ignore that, he was sound on the national question.

Then we can easily ignore Churchills racism and the Tans or Stalins genocide, sure they beat the Nazis. So what if Michael Jackson raped kids, he invented a dance. Saville built a whole focking hospital.

Tipperary are going to have to find a new cup for their Senior Hurling Champions....Dan Breen Cup is  no longer acceptable and should be melted down

Dan Breen was a big supporter of the Nazis

And these are the conversations we need to have.

Was he a big Nazi? Was he employed by the Nazis? Did he rag on Jews?

I think there is an objective difference between an unsavoury opinion and actual acts to further said agenda

I wish I could say it was just some throw away comment he made.....it's more serious than that

It would actually be a disqualifier for some I'm sad to say

Personally, I wouldn't have an issue with it
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 02:16:50 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 15, 2020, 10:48:58 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 08:38:59 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 15, 2020, 08:22:25 AM
Some fuckwits on this thread now! So John Mitchell is up there with Michael Jackson Jimmy Saville Himmler and Churchill

The guy was a slavery supporter he was quoted saying the slaves were treated better than the Irish back home, he ran a newspaper (unsuccessfully) his children died in the war for the confederacy, no talk of owning slaves beating slaves or rapping them, this practice of owning slaves was legal at the time though it was completely wrong. But he came back to Ireland and his focus wasn't slaves or the confederates it was freeing Ireland.

Was he wrong with his views? Yes, should his name be tarnished because of that? Completely, but his lasting memory won't be What he did in America.

The clubs will no doubt talk about it but I'd be very surprised they'll change their name
A lot of terrible things were "legal".

Mitchel himself, not just his sons, served in the confederate army during the US Civil War.

Funny you mention Churchill in the same breath as Himmler.

So you obviously think Churchill's statue should be removed?

Here's the thing, I didn't mention him, people are bringing these names up in what about this and what about him and blah blah. Removing statues? We've jumped from clubs being named after someone who served in the confederate army to removing statues of Churchill!

It's the fuckwits that change the topic with the other shit. People like you
I didn't bring up Churchill, you did.

I haven't changed the topic at all.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 02:20:29 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on June 15, 2020, 11:58:38 AM
The best hope of avoiding controversy is to pick a saints name from about the 10th century that there only is about 2 lines written on, the lines are probably written by a monk in the 12 century and are going to portray the person as a saint so there is a good chance you should be fine with them.  Anyone post about 1800 there is a good chance there will be some dirt on them.
The best way to avoid controversy is to pick somebody or something who didn't fight for slavery.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 03:24:08 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on June 15, 2020, 02:29:03 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 02:20:29 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on June 15, 2020, 11:58:38 AM
The best hope of avoiding controversy is to pick a saints name from about the 10th century that there only is about 2 lines written on, the lines are probably written by a monk in the 12 century and are going to portray the person as a saint so there is a good chance you should be fine with them.  Anyone post about 1800 there is a good chance there will be some dirt on them.
The best way to avoid controversy is to pick somebody or something who didn't fight for slavery.
Name a person and I am confident I could find something on them that at least some people will find controversial

Mother Teresa
Michael Collins
Abraham Lincoln
Winston Churchill

Thief, traitor, nothing jumps out, drunk genocidal bigot.

Do you think there is much demand for a club named after Churchill or Theresa?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Maiden1 on June 15, 2020, 03:30:01 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 03:24:08 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on June 15, 2020, 02:29:03 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 02:20:29 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on June 15, 2020, 11:58:38 AM
The best hope of avoiding controversy is to pick a saints name from about the 10th century that there only is about 2 lines written on, the lines are probably written by a monk in the 12 century and are going to portray the person as a saint so there is a good chance you should be fine with them.  Anyone post about 1800 there is a good chance there will be some dirt on them.
The best way to avoid controversy is to pick somebody or something who didn't fight for slavery.
Name a person and I am confident I could find something on them that at least some people will find controversial

Mother Teresa
Michael Collins
Abraham Lincoln
Winston Churchill

Thief, traitor, nothing jumps out, drunk genocidal bigot.

Do you think there is much demand for a club named after Churchill or Theresa?
Drunk Genocidal bigot for Churchill for sure and in fairness having just read more on Mitchel's wiki page some of his views are not great.

It still holds true that it will be hard to find a person without controversy.  One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter depending on your point of view could be labelled against practical every club named after a person who fought in the conflict in Ireland.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: five points on June 15, 2020, 04:24:15 PM
Unless you're either an ancient saint, or you have killed at least one other person, you don't really stand a chance in this country of having something named after you.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 04:33:34 PM
It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Taylor on June 15, 2020, 04:37:42 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 04:33:34 PM
It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

Can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 15, 2020, 04:37:42 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 04:33:34 PM
It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

Can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?
Every post on this thread that engages in whataboutery (ie. a play for fake victimhood in the absence of being able to defend why Mitchel continues to adorn the names of GAA clubs) or says something like "where does it stop" (an explicit plea of fake victimhood - I always read such phrases in a stereotypical Brexiteer voice) is exactly the sort of thing I refer to in my first quoted post in this exchange.

The real lesson out of all this is that endemic racism and lack of accountability for racist police brutality persists not just in the US, but that endemic racism persists in all white majority societies, including Ireland.

Liveline ran for over a week with heartbreaking stories from Irish people of colour, we operate the dehumanising Direct provision system, and we have a very long running problem with anti-Traveller discrimination and bigotry in this country. Peter Casey saw his vote multiply twentyfold when he decided to go full racist.

Symbols are a great way of perpetuating that endemic racism, and yet here we have a load of white people who fail to see  problem with the glorification of a confederate, pro-slavery propagandist.

And every single word here in favour of the retention of John Mitchel's name adorning GAA clubs has been dripping in the exact sort of fake white victimhood I talk about.

When endemic racism is highlighted, white supremacists always attempt to change the narrative.

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number one was "this issue is not the endmic racism and the lack of accountabilty for racist police brutality, the issue is the looting".

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number two is "They've gone too far! Where does it stop?!!!"

White supremacism isn't just people going round in KKK hoods or holding burning torches or shouting about blood and soil or driving cars into innocent anti-fascist protestors, you know.

White supremacism is the search for narratives to deflect, to deny, to turn reality on its head, to turn victimhood on its head, when white people are taken out of their comfort zone.





Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 05:08:52 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on June 15, 2020, 03:30:01 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 03:24:08 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on June 15, 2020, 02:29:03 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 02:20:29 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on June 15, 2020, 11:58:38 AM
The best hope of avoiding controversy is to pick a saints name from about the 10th century that there only is about 2 lines written on, the lines are probably written by a monk in the 12 century and are going to portray the person as a saint so there is a good chance you should be fine with them.  Anyone post about 1800 there is a good chance there will be some dirt on them.
The best way to avoid controversy is to pick somebody or something who didn't fight for slavery.
Name a person and I am confident I could find something on them that at least some people will find controversial

Mother Teresa
Michael Collins
Abraham Lincoln
Winston Churchill

Thief, traitor, nothing jumps out, drunk genocidal bigot.

Do you think there is much demand for a club named after Churchill or Theresa?
Drunk Genocidal bigot for Churchill for sure and in fairness having just read more on Mitchel's wiki page some of his views are not great.

It still holds true that it will be hard to find a person without controversy.  One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter depending on your point of view could be labelled against practical every club named after a person who fought in the conflict in Ireland.

But it isn't.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Taylor on June 15, 2020, 05:11:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 15, 2020, 04:37:42 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 04:33:34 PM
It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

Can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?
Every post on this thread that engages in whataboutery (ie. a play for fake victimhood in the absence of being able to defend why Mitchel continues to adorn the names of GAA clubs) or says something like "where does it stop" (an explicit plea of fake victimhood - I always read such phrases in a stereotypical Brexiteer voice) is exactly the sort of thing I refer to in my first quoted post in this exchange.

The real lesson out of all this is that endemic racism and lack of accountability for racist police brutality persists not just in the US, but that endemic racism persists in all white majority societies, including Ireland.

Liveline ran for over a week with heartbreaking stories from Irish people of colour, we operate the dehumanising Direct provision system, and we have a very long running problem with anti-Traveller discrimination and bigotry in this country. Peter Casey saw his vote multiply twentyfold when he decided to go full racist.

Symbols are a great way of perpetuating that endemic racism, and yet here we have a load of white people who fail to see  problem with the glorification of a confederate, pro-slavery propagandist.

And every single word here in favour of the retention of John Mitchel's name adorning GAA clubs has been dripping in the exact sort of fake white victimhood I talk about.

When endemic racism is highlighted, white supremacists always attempt to change the narrative.

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number one was "this issue is not the endmic racism and the lack of accountabilty for racist police brutality, the issue is the looting".

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number two is "They've gone too far! Where does it stop?!!!"

White supremacism isn't just people going round in KKK hoods or holding burning torches or shouting about blood and soil or driving cars into innocent anti-fascist protestors, you know.

White supremacism is the search for narratives to deflect, to deny, to turn reality on its head, to turn victimhood on its head, when white people are taken out of their comfort zone.

Great Sid - so 'can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?'
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 05:19:33 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 15, 2020, 05:11:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 15, 2020, 04:37:42 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 04:33:34 PM
It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

Can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?
Every post on this thread that engages in whataboutery (ie. a play for fake victimhood in the absence of being able to defend why Mitchel continues to adorn the names of GAA clubs) or says something like "where does it stop" (an explicit plea of fake victimhood - I always read such phrases in a stereotypical Brexiteer voice) is exactly the sort of thing I refer to in my first quoted post in this exchange.

The real lesson out of all this is that endemic racism and lack of accountability for racist police brutality persists not just in the US, but that endemic racism persists in all white majority societies, including Ireland.

Liveline ran for over a week with heartbreaking stories from Irish people of colour, we operate the dehumanising Direct provision system, and we have a very long running problem with anti-Traveller discrimination and bigotry in this country. Peter Casey saw his vote multiply twentyfold when he decided to go full racist.

Symbols are a great way of perpetuating that endemic racism, and yet here we have a load of white people who fail to see  problem with the glorification of a confederate, pro-slavery propagandist.

And every single word here in favour of the retention of John Mitchel's name adorning GAA clubs has been dripping in the exact sort of fake white victimhood I talk about.

When endemic racism is highlighted, white supremacists always attempt to change the narrative.

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number one was "this issue is not the endmic racism and the lack of accountabilty for racist police brutality, the issue is the looting".

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number two is "They've gone too far! Where does it stop?!!!"

White supremacism isn't just people going round in KKK hoods or holding burning torches or shouting about blood and soil or driving cars into innocent anti-fascist protestors, you know.

White supremacism is the search for narratives to deflect, to deny, to turn reality on its head, to turn victimhood on its head, when white people are taken out of their comfort zone.

Great Sid - so 'can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?'
See, you're going into victimhood mode now because you feel confronted by my post.

I already did direct you towards such posts. There are dozens of them on this thread. I'm sure you can read.

Frankly, the decision to remove Mitchel's name from GAA clubs should be an absolute no brainer and should be done voluntarily by those clubs - if they are serious about being anti-racist.

Same goes for the Washington Redskins - well, that organisation has already proved it isn't serious about being anti-racist because it has had more than enough time to realise the implications of keeping its name.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: rosnarun on June 15, 2020, 05:38:24 PM
its ok lads you can close this thread
Biily rays cyrus; daughter  has reached out to Leo between them they solve Covid and Racism. im sure they'll include Poverty , Gay righs, Womens Rights,the environment and sick puppies along the way

Whew I was getting worried there
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 15, 2020, 05:46:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 15, 2020, 04:37:42 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 04:33:34 PM
It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

Can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?
Every post on this thread that engages in whataboutery (ie. a play for fake victimhood in the absence of being able to defend why Mitchel continues to adorn the names of GAA clubs) or says something like "where does it stop" (an explicit plea of fake victimhood - I always read such phrases in a stereotypical Brexiteer voice) is exactly the sort of thing I refer to in my first quoted post in this exchange.

The real lesson out of all this is that endemic racism and lack of accountability for racist police brutality persists not just in the US, but that endemic racism persists in all white majority societies, including Ireland.

Liveline ran for over a week with heartbreaking stories from Irish people of colour, we operate the dehumanising Direct provision system, and we have a very long running problem with anti-Traveller discrimination and bigotry in this country. Peter Casey saw his vote multiply twentyfold when he decided to go full racist.

Symbols are a great way of perpetuating that endemic racism, and yet here we have a load of white people who fail to see  problem with the glorification of a confederate, pro-slavery propagandist.

And every single word here in favour of the retention of John Mitchel's name adorning GAA clubs has been dripping in the exact sort of fake white victimhood I talk about.

When endemic racism is highlighted, white supremacists always attempt to change the narrative.

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number one was "this issue is not the endmic racism and the lack of accountabilty for racist police brutality, the issue is the looting".

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number two is "They've gone too far! Where does it stop?!!!"

White supremacism isn't just people going round in KKK hoods or holding burning torches or shouting about blood and soil or driving cars into innocent anti-fascist protestors, you know.

White supremacism is the search for narratives to deflect, to deny, to turn reality on its head, to turn victimhood on its head, when white people are taken out of their comfort zone.

We have a very long running problem with Travellers!
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 15, 2020, 05:59:59 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 05:19:33 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 15, 2020, 05:11:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 15, 2020, 04:37:42 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 04:33:34 PM
It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

Can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?
Every post on this thread that engages in whataboutery (ie. a play for fake victimhood in the absence of being able to defend why Mitchel continues to adorn the names of GAA clubs) or says something like "where does it stop" (an explicit plea of fake victimhood - I always read such phrases in a stereotypical Brexiteer voice) is exactly the sort of thing I refer to in my first quoted post in this exchange.

The real lesson out of all this is that endemic racism and lack of accountability for racist police brutality persists not just in the US, but that endemic racism persists in all white majority societies, including Ireland.

Liveline ran for over a week with heartbreaking stories from Irish people of colour, we operate the dehumanising Direct provision system, and we have a very long running problem with anti-Traveller discrimination and bigotry in this country. Peter Casey saw his vote multiply twentyfold when he decided to go full racist.

Symbols are a great way of perpetuating that endemic racism, and yet here we have a load of white people who fail to see  problem with the glorification of a confederate, pro-slavery propagandist.

And every single word here in favour of the retention of John Mitchel's name adorning GAA clubs has been dripping in the exact sort of fake white victimhood I talk about.

When endemic racism is highlighted, white supremacists always attempt to change the narrative.

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number one was "this issue is not the endmic racism and the lack of accountabilty for racist police brutality, the issue is the looting".

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number two is "They've gone too far! Where does it stop?!!!"

White supremacism isn't just people going round in KKK hoods or holding burning torches or shouting about blood and soil or driving cars into innocent anti-fascist protestors, you know.

White supremacism is the search for narratives to deflect, to deny, to turn reality on its head, to turn victimhood on its head, when white people are taken out of their comfort zone.

Great Sid - so 'can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?'
See, you're going into victimhood mode now because you feel confronted by my post.

I already did direct you towards such posts. There are dozens of them on this thread. I'm sure you can read.

Frankly, the decision to remove Mitchel's name from GAA clubs should be an absolute no brainer and should be done voluntarily by those clubs - if they are serious about being anti-racist.

Same goes for the Washington Redskins - well, that organisation has already proved it isn't serious about being anti-racist because it has had more than enough time to realise the implications of keeping its name.

I expect the Redskins will see the light soon enough.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: tonto1888 on June 15, 2020, 06:04:49 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 01:13:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 01:05:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 02:00:23 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 12:25:21 AM
Quote from: naka on June 14, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 13, 2020, 11:00:05 PM
Quote from: naka on June 13, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
For me John Mitchell should be looked on Simply upon his views on our problems.
Newry is proud that he stood for the Irish cause.
I agree with that .
So we just ignore the rest of what he did?

Sure then Jimmy Saville deserves a statue for his healthcare fundraising.
Poor taste .

It's not. Its the conclusion of that narrow logic.

Mitchel was an extreme racist, but ignore that, he was sound on the national question.

Then we can easily ignore Churchills racism and the Tans or Stalins genocide, sure they beat the Nazis. So what if Michael Jackson raped kids, he invented a dance. Saville built a whole focking hospital.

Tipperary are going to have to find a new cup for their Senior Hurling Champions....Dan Breen Cup is  no longer acceptable and should be melted down

Dan Breen was a big supporter of the Nazis

And these are the conversations we need to have.

Was he a big Nazi? Was he employed by the Nazis? Did he rag on Jews?

I think there is an objective difference between an unsavoury opinion and actual acts to further said agenda

I wish I could say it was just some throw away comment he made.....it's more serious than that

It would actually be a disqualifier for some I'm sad to say

Personally, I wouldn't have an issue with it

What exactly did Breen do to support the Nazis. Genuine question.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: tonto1888 on June 15, 2020, 06:07:59 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 15, 2020, 05:46:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 15, 2020, 04:37:42 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 04:33:34 PM
It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

Can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?
Every post on this thread that engages in whataboutery (ie. a play for fake victimhood in the absence of being able to defend why Mitchel continues to adorn the names of GAA clubs) or says something like "where does it stop" (an explicit plea of fake victimhood - I always read such phrases in a stereotypical Brexiteer voice) is exactly the sort of thing I refer to in my first quoted post in this exchange.

The real lesson out of all this is that endemic racism and lack of accountability for racist police brutality persists not just in the US, but that endemic racism persists in all white majority societies, including Ireland.

Liveline ran for over a week with heartbreaking stories from Irish people of colour, we operate the dehumanising Direct provision system, and we have a very long running problem with anti-Traveller discrimination and bigotry in this country. Peter Casey saw his vote multiply twentyfold when he decided to go full racist.

Symbols are a great way of perpetuating that endemic racism, and yet here we have a load of white people who fail to see  problem with the glorification of a confederate, pro-slavery propagandist.

And every single word here in favour of the retention of John Mitchel's name adorning GAA clubs has been dripping in the exact sort of fake white victimhood I talk about.

When endemic racism is highlighted, white supremacists always attempt to change the narrative.

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number one was "this issue is not the endmic racism and the lack of accountabilty for racist police brutality, the issue is the looting".

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number two is "They've gone too far! Where does it stop?!!!"

White supremacism isn't just people going round in KKK hoods or holding burning torches or shouting about blood and soil or driving cars into innocent anti-fascist protestors, you know.

White supremacism is the search for narratives to deflect, to deny, to turn reality on its head, to turn victimhood on its head, when white people are taken out of their comfort zone.

We have a very long running problem with Travellers!

We have w very long running problem with plenty of different types of people on this island. Why single out travellers?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 15, 2020, 06:30:22 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 15, 2020, 06:07:59 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 15, 2020, 05:46:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 15, 2020, 04:37:42 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 04:33:34 PM
It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

Can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?
Every post on this thread that engages in whataboutery (ie. a play for fake victimhood in the absence of being able to defend why Mitchel continues to adorn the names of GAA clubs) or says something like "where does it stop" (an explicit plea of fake victimhood - I always read such phrases in a stereotypical Brexiteer voice) is exactly the sort of thing I refer to in my first quoted post in this exchange.

The real lesson out of all this is that endemic racism and lack of accountability for racist police brutality persists not just in the US, but that endemic racism persists in all white majority societies, including Ireland.

Liveline ran for over a week with heartbreaking stories from Irish people of colour, we operate the dehumanising Direct provision system, and we have a very long running problem with anti-Traveller discrimination and bigotry in this country. Peter Casey saw his vote multiply twentyfold when he decided to go full racist.

Symbols are a great way of perpetuating that endemic racism, and yet here we have a load of white people who fail to see  problem with the glorification of a confederate, pro-slavery propagandist.

And every single word here in favour of the retention of John Mitchel's name adorning GAA clubs has been dripping in the exact sort of fake white victimhood I talk about.

When endemic racism is highlighted, white supremacists always attempt to change the narrative.

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number one was "this issue is not the endmic racism and the lack of accountabilty for racist police brutality, the issue is the looting".

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number two is "They've gone too far! Where does it stop?!!!"

White supremacism isn't just people going round in KKK hoods or holding burning torches or shouting about blood and soil or driving cars into innocent anti-fascist protestors, you know.

White supremacism is the search for narratives to deflect, to deny, to turn reality on its head, to turn victimhood on its head, when white people are taken out of their comfort zone.

We have a very long running problem with Travellers!

We have w very long running problem with plenty of different types of people on this island. Why single out travellers?

Don't be naive. There's a reason why there is so much anti-traveller feeling in this country (and in Britain). No other group has such a high percentage of scumbags amongst them.  There is a huge problem with them. Intimidating, thieving, interrogating, torturing and threatening people and neighbourhoods. Fines and sentencing clearly doesn't work as their criminal record won't affect them getting mortgages, jobs etc, the way it affects everyone else. Police mostly don't want to know when it comes to dealing with them. Everyone of them are the same, raised and taught to be like this from a young age.

Absolute scum the lot of them.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: BennyCake on June 15, 2020, 06:49:41 PM
Quote from: five points on June 15, 2020, 04:24:15 PM
Unless you're either an ancient saint, or you have killed at least one other person, you don't really stand a chance in this country of having something named after you.

Ancient saints are likely a combination of good deeds attributed to two or more people. Or over time, their exploits have got more and more exaggerated.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 15, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: tonto1888 on June 15, 2020, 08:10:54 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 15, 2020, 06:30:22 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 15, 2020, 06:07:59 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 15, 2020, 05:46:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 15, 2020, 04:37:42 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 04:33:34 PM
It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

Can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?
Every post on this thread that engages in whataboutery (ie. a play for fake victimhood in the absence of being able to defend why Mitchel continues to adorn the names of GAA clubs) or says something like "where does it stop" (an explicit plea of fake victimhood - I always read such phrases in a stereotypical Brexiteer voice) is exactly the sort of thing I refer to in my first quoted post in this exchange.

The real lesson out of all this is that endemic racism and lack of accountability for racist police brutality persists not just in the US, but that endemic racism persists in all white majority societies, including Ireland.

Liveline ran for over a week with heartbreaking stories from Irish people of colour, we operate the dehumanising Direct provision system, and we have a very long running problem with anti-Traveller discrimination and bigotry in this country. Peter Casey saw his vote multiply twentyfold when he decided to go full racist.

Symbols are a great way of perpetuating that endemic racism, and yet here we have a load of white people who fail to see  problem with the glorification of a confederate, pro-slavery propagandist.

And every single word here in favour of the retention of John Mitchel's name adorning GAA clubs has been dripping in the exact sort of fake white victimhood I talk about.

When endemic racism is highlighted, white supremacists always attempt to change the narrative.

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number one was "this issue is not the endmic racism and the lack of accountabilty for racist police brutality, the issue is the looting".

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number two is "They've gone too far! Where does it stop?!!!"

White supremacism isn't just people going round in KKK hoods or holding burning torches or shouting about blood and soil or driving cars into innocent anti-fascist protestors, you know.

White supremacism is the search for narratives to deflect, to deny, to turn reality on its head, to turn victimhood on its head, when white people are taken out of their comfort zone.

We have a very long running problem with Travellers!

We have w very long running problem with plenty of different types of people on this island. Why single out travellers?

Don't be naive. There's a reason why there is so much anti-traveller feeling in this country (and in Britain). No other group has such a high percentage of scumbags amongst them.  There is a huge problem with them. Intimidating, thieving, interrogating, torturing and threatening people and neighbourhoods. Fines and sentencing clearly doesn't work as their criminal record won't affect them getting mortgages, jobs etc, the way it affects everyone else. Police mostly don't want to know when it comes to dealing with them. Everyone of them are the same, raised and taught to be like this from a young age.

Absolute scum the lot of them.

Absolute scum the lot of them? You sure about that? Really? Says a lot about you if you stand by that comment. I happen to know for a fact that's not true. I went to school with travellers who were far from scum. Served travellers in a pub who were far from scum.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Rossfan on June 15, 2020, 08:17:31 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 15, 2020, 06:30:22 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 15, 2020, 06:07:59 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 15, 2020, 05:46:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 15, 2020, 04:37:42 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 04:33:34 PM
It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.


r. There's a reason why there is so much anti-traveller feeling in this country (and in Britain). No other group has such a high percentage of scumbags amongst them.  There is a huge problem with them. Intimidating, thieving, interrogating, torturing and threatening people and neighbourhoods. Fines and sentencing clearly doesn't work as their criminal record won't affect them getting mortgages, jobs etc, the way it affects everyone else. Police mostly don't want to know when it comes to dealing with them. Everyone of them are the same, raised and taught to be like this from a young age.

Absolute scum the lot of them.
What if you put e.g "Nordies" there instead of Travellers.........
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 15, 2020, 08:38:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 15, 2020, 08:40:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 15, 2020, 06:30:22 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 15, 2020, 06:07:59 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 15, 2020, 05:46:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 15, 2020, 04:37:42 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 15, 2020, 04:33:34 PM
It's really weird that the "lesson" a load of white people here have taken out of all this racist police brutality stuff in the US is that white people are the real victims because a racist scene got deleted from Fawlty Towers and people are talking about consigning slavery propagandist John Mitchel to the dustbin of history that he deserves to lie in.

Can you direct me to the posts here about this lesson that the load of white people have learned Sid?
Every post on this thread that engages in whataboutery (ie. a play for fake victimhood in the absence of being able to defend why Mitchel continues to adorn the names of GAA clubs) or says something like "where does it stop" (an explicit plea of fake victimhood - I always read such phrases in a stereotypical Brexiteer voice) is exactly the sort of thing I refer to in my first quoted post in this exchange.

The real lesson out of all this is that endemic racism and lack of accountability for racist police brutality persists not just in the US, but that endemic racism persists in all white majority societies, including Ireland.

Liveline ran for over a week with heartbreaking stories from Irish people of colour, we operate the dehumanising Direct provision system, and we have a very long running problem with anti-Traveller discrimination and bigotry in this country. Peter Casey saw his vote multiply twentyfold when he decided to go full racist.

Symbols are a great way of perpetuating that endemic racism, and yet here we have a load of white people who fail to see  problem with the glorification of a confederate, pro-slavery propagandist.

And every single word here in favour of the retention of John Mitchel's name adorning GAA clubs has been dripping in the exact sort of fake white victimhood I talk about.

When endemic racism is highlighted, white supremacists always attempt to change the narrative.

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number one was "this issue is not the endmic racism and the lack of accountabilty for racist police brutality, the issue is the looting".

Attempted white supremacist narrative change number two is "They've gone too far! Where does it stop?!!!"

White supremacism isn't just people going round in KKK hoods or holding burning torches or shouting about blood and soil or driving cars into innocent anti-fascist protestors, you know.

White supremacism is the search for narratives to deflect, to deny, to turn reality on its head, to turn victimhood on its head, when white people are taken out of their comfort zone.

We have a very long running problem with Travellers!

We have w very long running problem with plenty of different types of people on this island. Why single out travellers?

Don't be naive. There's a reason why there is so much anti-traveller feeling in this country (and in Britain). No other group has such a high percentage of scumbags amongst them.  There is a huge problem with them. Intimidating, thieving, interrogating, torturing and threatening people and neighbourhoods. Fines and sentencing clearly doesn't work as their criminal record won't affect them getting mortgages, jobs etc, the way it affects everyone else. Police mostly don't want to know when it comes to dealing with them. Everyone of them are the same, raised and taught to be like this from a young age.

Absolute scum the lot of them.

Wow.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 08:38:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"


If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 15, 2020, 09:04:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 08:38:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"


If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

How is a name change "erasing history"?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 15, 2020, 09:38:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 08:38:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"


If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

Like when Kings and Queens County where renamed? I'm guessing you think that was wrong - it's "erasing history" after all.

And maybe you want O'Connell Street renamed "Sackville Street" again because it was silly of those "weak and easily offended" Irish (damn snowflakes)  to try and make it more reflective of their society and aspirations.

Or am wrong?

Maybe I am.

I'm guessing you'll swerve the question for a while, engage in some deflection (probably do an internet search or two to buy some time), and then eventually come back with a version of "its one rule for us and another for everyone else"
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: dec on June 15, 2020, 09:59:45 PM
The issue with Confederate monuments in the US is that they were specifically raised to honour the Confederacy and send a message that those who created the monuments would resist civil rights for blacks.

No GAA club chose John Mitchel because of his pro-slavery views.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 15, 2020, 10:03:06 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 09:04:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 08:38:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"


If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

How is a name change "erasing history"?

You never have to talk about it or address it if you remove it.

Castlebar Mitchels actually had an expert come in and give a talk on the history of John Mitchel last year, long before a bunch of snowflakes got their knickers in a twist about something that's trending on social media. I wonder how many people outside the club bothered to attend
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 15, 2020, 10:04:58 PM
Quote from: dec on June 15, 2020, 09:59:45 PM
The issue with Confederate monuments in the US is that they were specifically raised to honour the Confederacy and send a message that those who created the monuments would resist civil rights for blacks.

No GAA club chose John Mitchel because of his pro-slavery views.

Nobody claimed they did.

The question is whether the decision needs to be revisited.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 15, 2020, 10:13:37 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 15, 2020, 09:38:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 08:38:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"


If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

Like when Kings and Queens County where renamed? I'm guessing you think that was wrong - it's "erasing history" after all.

And maybe you want O'Connell Street renamed "Sackville Street" again because it was silly of those "weak and easily offended" Irish (damn snowflakes)  to try and make it more reflective of their society and aspirations.

Or am wrong?

Maybe I am.

I'm guessing you'll swerve the question for a while, engage in some deflection (probably do an internet search or two to buy some time), and then eventually come back with a version of "its one rule for us and another for everyone else"

Every town and county is different

Castlebar and Westport kept their original street names post Independence-Ballina chose to change theirs.

If Castlebar or Tralee or Newry choose to keep their clubs name that's the decision for the club members....no-one else!


Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 15, 2020, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 10:13:37 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 15, 2020, 09:38:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 08:38:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"


If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

Like when Kings and Queens County where renamed? I'm guessing you think that was wrong - it's "erasing history" after all.

And maybe you want O'Connell Street renamed "Sackville Street" again because it was silly of those "weak and easily offended" Irish (damn snowflakes)  to try and make it more reflective of their society and aspirations.

Or am wrong?

Maybe I am.

I'm guessing you'll swerve the question for a while, engage in some deflection (probably do an internet search or two to buy some time), and then eventually come back with a version of "its one rule for us and another for everyone else"

Every town and county is different

Castlebar and Westport kept their original street names post Independence-Ballina chose to change theirs.

If Castlebar or Tralee or Newry choose to keep their clubs name that's the decision for the club members....no-one else!

Ah so those who changed it weren't just "weak and easily offended" sorts then?

And they weren't "erasing history"?

It was just up to themselves.

Funny that.

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 15, 2020, 10:43:51 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 15, 2020, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 10:13:37 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 15, 2020, 09:38:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 08:38:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"


If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

Like when Kings and Queens County where renamed? I'm guessing you think that was wrong - it's "erasing history" after all.

And maybe you want O'Connell Street renamed "Sackville Street" again because it was silly of those "weak and easily offended" Irish (damn snowflakes)  to try and make it more reflective of their society and aspirations.

Or am wrong?

Maybe I am.

I'm guessing you'll swerve the question for a while, engage in some deflection (probably do an internet search or two to buy some time), and then eventually come back with a version of "its one rule for us and another for everyone else"

Every town and county is different

Castlebar and Westport kept their original street names post Independence-Ballina chose to change theirs.

If Castlebar or Tralee or Newry choose to keep their clubs name that's the decision for the club members....no-one else!

Ah so those who changed it weren't just "weak and easily offended" sorts then?

And they weren't "erasing history"?

It was just up to themselves.

Funny that.

Changing the name of something 130 years later because its offensive (to a minority of people) when viewed through a contemporary lens is nothing less than pandering to political correctness. People who pander to a politically correct mob, are indeed weak and easily offended
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 15, 2020, 11:04:10 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 10:43:51 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 15, 2020, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 10:13:37 PM
Quote from: Chief on June 15, 2020, 09:38:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 08:38:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"


If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

Like when Kings and Queens County where renamed? I'm guessing you think that was wrong - it's "erasing history" after all.

And maybe you want O'Connell Street renamed "Sackville Street" again because it was silly of those "weak and easily offended" Irish (damn snowflakes)  to try and make it more reflective of their society and aspirations.

Or am wrong?

Maybe I am.

I'm guessing you'll swerve the question for a while, engage in some deflection (probably do an internet search or two to buy some time), and then eventually come back with a version of "its one rule for us and another for everyone else"

Every town and county is different

Castlebar and Westport kept their original street names post Independence-Ballina chose to change theirs.

If Castlebar or Tralee or Newry choose to keep their clubs name that's the decision for the club members....no-one else!

Ah so those who changed it weren't just "weak and easily offended" sorts then?

And they weren't "erasing history"?

It was just up to themselves.

Funny that.

Changing the name of something 130 years later because its offensive (to a minority of people) when viewed through a contemporary lens is nothing less than pandering to political correctness. People who pander to a politically correct mob, are indeed weak and easily offended

Your ability to speak out of both sides of your mouth is fascinating.

Just to note. Slavery had always been offensive - at least to the enslaved.

Ireland as a whole certainly seems to think so, in fact it offends us that much it's in our national anthem "no more our ancient sire land, shall shelter the despot or the slave"

I guess by extension of your logic, that means as a nation we must have always been weak and easily offended though?

Again hard to tell if I'm following your logic correctly, your double speak game is strong
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 15, 2020, 11:52:07 PM
So are you just offended by slavery?

Are you not also offended by the Nazis? If you are, the Dan Breen Cup and the Galtee Mountain Boy should be all done. Ditto Tom Barry

Are you not offended by the IRA "murdering" people?  If you are several clubs, pitches and competitions will need to be renamed

Are you not offended by anti-semitism?  That's Arthur Griffith done, and possibly Michael Cusack too.

Are you not offended by child sexual abuse? Casement.....all done

So sure, have your knickers in a twist about John Mitchell......but let's look at the name of every team, cup and pitch in the country while we are at it. Either everything is on the table or nothing should be on the table.


Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 16, 2020, 12:15:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 10:03:06 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 09:04:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 08:38:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"


If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

How is a name change "erasing history"?

You never have to talk about it or address it if you remove it.

Castlebar Mitchels actually had an expert come in and give a talk on the history of John Mitchel last year, long before a bunch of snowflakes got their knickers in a twist about something that's trending on social media. I wonder how many people outside the club bothered to attend

Ok, now you're starting to sound hysterical. Spare us the snowflake bullshit.

That aside, I don't get your logic. Are you saying that Castlebar should keep the name so that Mitchel and his views will be a topic of discussion? Seriously?

Regardless, the vast majority of people do not learn about Mitchel because a few clubs are named after him. And the replacement of his name in those clubs would not erase him from Irish history, any more than the removal of confederate statues from the public square in the US would erase their shameful, infamous  chapter from American history.

And also, the reason it's "trending" is because the vast majority of people didn't even know that some GAA clubs were named after a committed devotee of and advocate for antebellum southern slavery. It is absolutely an appropriate issue for discussion, just like those confederate flags and statues.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 16, 2020, 12:37:33 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 15, 2020, 06:30:22 PM


Don't be naive. There's a reason why there is so much anti-traveller feeling in this country (and in Britain). No other group has such a high percentage of scumbags amongst them.  There is a huge problem with them. Intimidating, thieving, interrogating, torturing and threatening people and neighbourhoods. Fines and sentencing clearly doesn't work as their criminal record won't affect them getting mortgages, jobs etc, the way it affects everyone else. Police mostly don't want to know when it comes to dealing with them. Everyone of them are the same, raised and taught to be like this from a young age.

Absolute scum the lot of them.

This sort of stuff could have come straight from Goebbels.

It's amazing how people don't understand basic historical frameworks.

Actually, you don't even have to understand them.

All it requires to understand the implications of the above screed is to not be a hateful person.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 16, 2020, 12:41:33 AM
Quote from: J70 on June 16, 2020, 12:15:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 10:03:06 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 09:04:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 08:38:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"


If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

How is a name change "erasing history"?

You never have to talk about it or address it if you remove it.

Castlebar Mitchels actually had an expert come in and give a talk on the history of John Mitchel last year, long before a bunch of snowflakes got their knickers in a twist about something that's trending on social media. I wonder how many people outside the club bothered to attend

Ok, now you're starting to sound hysterical. Spare us the snowflake bullshit.

That aside, I don't get your logic. Are you saying that Castlebar should keep the name so that Mitchel and his views will be a topic of discussion? Seriously?

Regardless, the vast majority of people do not learn about Mitchel because a few clubs are named after him. And the replacement of his name in those clubs would not erase him from Irish history, any more than the removal of confederate statues from the public square in the US would erase their shameful, infamous  chapter from American history.

And also, the reason it's "trending" is because the vast majority of people didn't even know that some GAA clubs were named after a committed devotee of and advocate for antebellum southern slavery. It is absolutely an appropriate issue for discussion, just like those confederate flags and statues.



LOL-They had a discussion about him in the clubhouse 9 months ago

They brought in a PHD who had written his dissertation on "The Life of John Mitchell" and drove up all the way from Cork (I think) to deliver it

And yes....I think this opens up a real opportunity to have discussions around difficult, complicated  and nuanced historical and societal issues

I don't think I ever said it wasn't a topic for discussion.....I believe I said that after discussion it should be left up to the club members to decide what to do. They shouldn't be dictated to by a mob who've their knickers in a twist about something they read about in the internet
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 16, 2020, 12:48:59 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.
I presume you were crying foul when the people of Berlin were demolishing the wall in 1989?

According to your argument, the abolition of slavery itself was "erasing history".

The term "erasing history" is tremendous altogether.

The first apppropriate description of it that pops into mind is by one Fr. Ted Crilly. "It's so vague and nobody really knows what it means".

That's because it means absolutely nothing, and is a front for dimwits to say something they think sounds vaguely intelligent, at least to other dimwits.

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 16, 2020, 12:54:34 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM

If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

This sort of rhetoric is reminiscent of the pro-segregation nut jobs in the Saaaaaath in the 1960s.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 16, 2020, 12:57:00 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 16, 2020, 12:48:59 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.
I presume you were crying foul when the people of Berlin were demolishing the wall in 1989?

According to your argument, the abolition of slavery itself was "erasing history".

The term "erasing history" is tremendous altogether.

The first apppropriate description of it that pops into mind is by one Fr. Ted Crilly. "It's so vague and nobody really knows what it means".

That's because it means absolutely nothing, and is a front for dimwits to say something they think sounds vaguely intelligent, at least to other dimwits.


Yaaaawwwwnnnnnn

The people who pulled down the Berlin Wall did not go back 150 years in a time machine, travel 3000 miles across an ocean, then pull knock down a wall that had zero impact on them or anyone related to them

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 16, 2020, 01:00:29 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 12:57:00 AM

Yaaaawwwwnnnnnn

Your entire post output summed up in one performatively dragged out word.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 16, 2020, 01:04:07 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 12:41:33 AM
Quote from: J70 on June 16, 2020, 12:15:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 10:03:06 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 09:04:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 08:38:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 15, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 06:09:18 PM
But why just make a move on slavery?  Isn't that just selective outrage?

What about Stalinism and Naziism?

What about people who expressed anti traveller or anti gay sentiments?

I regret to say (if, like some have suggested on here, we  open the discussion to the wider community) we would also need to have  a discussion teams, pitches and competitions named in memory of IRA/INLA members

And what would be wrong with discussing any of that?

Nothing wrong with discussing it as long as we don't dispatch our history to the dustbin in a futile display of political correctness

Or equally as long as we don't preserve names in a futile and stubborn attempt to resist societal change and growing awareness of these kinds of issues.

"You live in the Castlebar catchment? Sure why don't you bring your kids down to the club?"
"Oh... I'd like to get them into gaelic games and I did think about it, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable joining a club named after an enthusiast of slavery. Thankfully, they're loving the soccer!"


If I were a club member, I would be prepared to lose players in order to take a stand. The club and it's name are as much part of the history of the town as is Lucan Street and Lord Lucan and the stained glass window in the parish church, dedicated to a regiment of the British Army for their exploits during the Boer War

Erasing history is for the weak and easily offended.

How is a name change "erasing history"?

You never have to talk about it or address it if you remove it.

Castlebar Mitchels actually had an expert come in and give a talk on the history of John Mitchel last year, long before a bunch of snowflakes got their knickers in a twist about something that's trending on social media. I wonder how many people outside the club bothered to attend

Ok, now you're starting to sound hysterical. Spare us the snowflake bullshit.

That aside, I don't get your logic. Are you saying that Castlebar should keep the name so that Mitchel and his views will be a topic of discussion? Seriously?

Regardless, the vast majority of people do not learn about Mitchel because a few clubs are named after him. And the replacement of his name in those clubs would not erase him from Irish history, any more than the removal of confederate statues from the public square in the US would erase their shameful, infamous  chapter from American history.

And also, the reason it's "trending" is because the vast majority of people didn't even know that some GAA clubs were named after a committed devotee of and advocate for antebellum southern slavery. It is absolutely an appropriate issue for discussion, just like those confederate flags and statues.



LOL-They had a discussion about him in the clubhouse 9 months ago

They brought in a PHD who had written his dissertation on "The Life of John Mitchell" and drove up all the way from Cork (I think) to deliver it

And yes....I think this opens up a real opportunity to have discussions around difficult, complicated  and nuanced historical and societal issues

I don't think I ever said it wasn't a topic for discussion.....I believe I said that after discussion it should be left up to the club members to decide what to do. They shouldn't be dictated to by a mob who've their knickers in a twist about something they read about in the internet

Who is saying they should be "dictated to by a mob who've their knickers in a twist about something they read about in the internet"?

This concerns more than just the clubs themselves though. The reputation of the wider GAA is affected by this kind of issue and they should be involved in any discussions.

I would have thought that given your whataboutery/slippery-slope approach to this, you would be an advocate for some sort of centralized look at it?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

Here's what Joe Brolly said on the matter "It's nobody else's business - it's as simple as that," he said of the Dungiven club's name. "People can either like it or lump it."
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 02:35:41 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

I take it at this point you aren't going to elaborate on the Dan Breen was a Nazi line?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 16, 2020, 02:55:41 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 02:35:41 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

I take it at this point you aren't going to elaborate on the Dan Breen was a Nazi line?

Plenty of evidence all over the internet

https://markhumphrys.com/dan.breen.html
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 16, 2020, 07:45:35 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 15, 2020, 11:52:07 PM
So are you just offended by slavery?

Are you not also offended by the Nazis? If you are, the Dan Breen Cup and the Galtee Mountain Boy should be all done. Ditto Tom Barry

Are you not offended by the IRA "murdering" people?  If you are several clubs, pitches and competitions will need to be renamed

Are you not offended by anti-semitism?  That's Arthur Griffith done, and possibly Michael Cusack too.

Are you not offended by child sexual abuse? Casement.....all done

So sure, have your knickers in a twist about John Mitchell......but let's look at the name of every team, cup and pitch in the country while we are at it. Either everything is on the table or nothing should be on the table.

I said the entire nation was offended by slavery.

As for the rest of them, yeah I'm offended. Let's look again at the lot of them imo.

If all the above is true, and as clear cut as you say, I'd be for their removal.

I'm not afraid of the consequences of that conversation, wherever it takes us.

Sounds like you are though...
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 16, 2020, 07:55:35 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

Here's what Joe Brolly said on the matter "It's nobody else's business - it's as simple as that," he said of the Dungiven club's name. "People can either like it or lump it."

The Kevin Lynch thing proves my point entirely.

As far as I understand it, the only thing that people object to is his physical force republicanism. I'm not sure there was anything else, happy to be corrected though.

The people of Dungiven are celebrating his physical force republicanism and his courage on hunger strike.

I don't think the people of Dungiven would shy away from a conversation on it, I think it's others who are more scared of the consequences of that conversation than them given the 26 county state was founded on physical force republicanism.

And if under my plan, someone tried to use financial pressure to get them to change it, I'm 100% sure the people of Dungiven would face it down and say "do your worst, we'll still be called Kevin Lynch's on the other side" 

Adults, who can follow the logic of an argument to its conclusion you see.



Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 09:18:18 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 02:55:41 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 02:35:41 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

I take it at this point you aren't going to elaborate on the Dan Breen was a Nazi line?

Plenty of evidence all over the internet

https://markhumphrys.com/dan.breen.html

Any chance of a credible, non extremist source?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 16, 2020, 09:54:09 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 16, 2020, 07:55:35 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

Here's what Joe Brolly said on the matter "It's nobody else's business - it's as simple as that," he said of the Dungiven club's name. "People can either like it or lump it."

The Kevin Lynch thing proves my point entirely.

As far as I understand it, the only thing that people object to is his physical force republicanism. I'm not sure there was anything else, happy to be corrected though.

The people of Dungiven are celebrating his physical force republicanism and his courage on hunger strike.

I don't think the people of Dungiven would shy away from a conversation on it, I think it's others who are more scared of the consequences of that conversation than them given the 26 county state was founded on physical force republicanism.

And if under my plan, someone tried to use financial pressure to get them to change it, I'm 100% sure the people of Dungiven would face it down and say "do your worst, we'll still be called Kevin Lynch's on the other side" 

Adults, who can follow the logic of an argument to its conclusion you see.

Actually it doesn't

The decision should be left up to the club.

So you'd be willing to try and put a club out of business who've been around for 130 because they won't bow to an internet mob on the cause du jour

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/gaa-clubs-free-to-name-grounds-after-ira-and-inla-insists-ulster-chief-37049176.html
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: johnnycool on June 16, 2020, 10:03:14 AM
St Paul's are gonna get it next;

Ephesians 6:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 16, 2020, 10:13:40 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 09:54:09 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 16, 2020, 07:55:35 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

Here's what Joe Brolly said on the matter "It's nobody else's business - it's as simple as that," he said of the Dungiven club's name. "People can either like it or lump it."

The Kevin Lynch thing proves my point entirely.

As far as I understand it, the only thing that people object to is his physical force republicanism. I'm not sure there was anything else, happy to be corrected though.

The people of Dungiven are celebrating his physical force republicanism and his courage on hunger strike.

I don't think the people of Dungiven would shy away from a conversation on it, I think it's others who are more scared of the consequences of that conversation than them given the 26 county state was founded on physical force republicanism.

And if under my plan, someone tried to use financial pressure to get them to change it, I'm 100% sure the people of Dungiven would face it down and say "do your worst, we'll still be called Kevin Lynch's on the other side" 

Adults, who can follow the logic of an argument to its conclusion you see.

Actually it doesn't

The decision should be left up to the club.

So you'd be willing to try and put a club out of business who've been around for 130 because they won't bow to an internet mob on the cause du jour

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/gaa-clubs-free-to-name-grounds-after-ira-and-inla-insists-ulster-chief-37049176.html

I'm not saying it shouldn't be left up to any club. But they should accept the consequences of their decision.

No club should expect the wider GAA population to sit on its hands, and remain silent, until  they have an internal community epiphany on slavery.

If the wider GAA community has leverage to agitate for change, then they should use it
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 16, 2020, 10:23:02 AM
Well then let the community make the call, not some bureaucrat in Croke Park

While unscientific the support online for retaining the name looks to be about 20:1 in favor of retaining

Those opposed IMHO seem to be the local SJWs who've never attended a game in their lives and members of rival clubs trying to stir the pot
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 16, 2020, 10:33:56 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 10:23:02 AM
Well then let the community make the call, not some bureaucrat in Croke Park

While unscientific the support online for retaining the name looks to be about 20:1 in favor of retaining

Those opposed IMHO seem to be the local SJWs who've never attended a game in their lives and members of rival clubs trying to stir the pot

It's what I've always said. Ultimately up to them.

But everyone else is entitled to condemn it to the high heavens if they see fit.

And everyone else are entitled to respond with administrative responses if they see fit also.

And the club will have to live with that. Actions/choices have consequences and the club has no entitlement to be insulated from them.

If that means loss of players or sponsors well then tough
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: five points on June 16, 2020, 10:39:07 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 09:18:18 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 02:55:41 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 02:35:41 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

I take it at this point you aren't going to elaborate on the Dan Breen was a Nazi line?

Plenty of evidence all over the internet

https://markhumphrys.com/dan.breen.html

Any chance of a credible, non extremist source?

Mark Humphrys is a wholly credible source. Show him where you think he's wrong on any point and he'll put you right.

He's not extremist either although some people who dislike his work regularly smear him as such as they are unable to directly rebut him.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 16, 2020, 11:13:22 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 16, 2020, 10:33:56 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 10:23:02 AM
Well then let the community make the call, not some bureaucrat in Croke Park

While unscientific the support online for retaining the name looks to be about 20:1 in favor of retaining

Those opposed IMHO seem to be the local SJWs who've never attended a game in their lives and members of rival clubs trying to stir the pot

It's what I've always said. Ultimately up to them.

But everyone else is entitled to condemn it to the high heavens if they see fit.

And everyone else are entitled to respond with administrative responses if they see fit also.

And the club will have to live with that. Actions/choices have consequences and the club has no entitlement to be insulated from them.

If that means loss of players or sponsors well then tough

"Everyone else" is not entitled to respond with Administrative responses......only Croke Park can do that and in the link I shared about the situation with the clubs up North, that option was absolutely not on the table.

With the local support seeming to be overwhelming for the club at this point, I think they can live with the consequences.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 16, 2020, 11:17:34 AM
Quote from: five points on June 16, 2020, 10:39:07 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 09:18:18 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 02:55:41 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 02:35:41 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

I take it at this point you aren't going to elaborate on the Dan Breen was a Nazi line?

Plenty of evidence all over the internet

https://markhumphrys.com/dan.breen.html

Any chance of a credible, non extremist source?

Mark Humphrys is a wholly credible source. Show him where you think he's wrong on any point and he'll put you right.

He's not extremist either although some people who dislike his work regularly smear him as such as they are unable to directly rebut him.

I dont know much about Mark Humphrys, but he had pulled everything together in one place.

There was a contemporary newspaper report of the Nazi funeral

There was a first hand account about the Hitler picture by the American journalist who visited him in his house and wrote about it immediately afterwards

There were the documents recovered from the German Embassy in Dublin

Another hero of the Flying Columns, Tom Barry, actually travelled to Nazi Germany
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 16, 2020, 11:30:25 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 11:13:22 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 16, 2020, 10:33:56 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 10:23:02 AM
Well then let the community make the call, not some bureaucrat in Croke Park

While unscientific the support online for retaining the name looks to be about 20:1 in favor of retaining

Those opposed IMHO seem to be the local SJWs who've never attended a game in their lives and members of rival clubs trying to stir the pot

It's what I've always said. Ultimately up to them.

But everyone else is entitled to condemn it to the high heavens if they see fit.

And everyone else are entitled to respond with administrative responses if they see fit also.

And the club will have to live with that. Actions/choices have consequences and the club has no entitlement to be insulated from them.

If that means loss of players or sponsors well then tough

"Everyone else" is not entitled to respond with Administrative responses......only Croke Park can do that and in the link I shared about the situation with the clubs up North, that option was absolutely not on the table.

With the local support seeming to be overwhelming for the club at this point, I think they can live with the consequences.

Croke Park can.

Everyone else can too.

Damn all you could do about it.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: LeoMc on June 16, 2020, 11:36:56 AM
I thought this was an interesting piece from Obama from last year, based on the current protests and discussions.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/10/31/us/politics/obama-woke-cancel-culture.amp.html
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 16, 2020, 11:39:14 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 16, 2020, 11:30:25 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 11:13:22 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 16, 2020, 10:33:56 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 10:23:02 AM
Well then let the community make the call, not some bureaucrat in Croke Park

While unscientific the support online for retaining the name looks to be about 20:1 in favor of retaining

Those opposed IMHO seem to be the local SJWs who've never attended a game in their lives and members of rival clubs trying to stir the pot

It's what I've always said. Ultimately up to them.

But everyone else is entitled to condemn it to the high heavens if they see fit.

And everyone else are entitled to respond with administrative responses if they see fit also.

And the club will have to live with that. Actions/choices have consequences and the club has no entitlement to be insulated from them.

If that means loss of players or sponsors well then tough

"Everyone else" is not entitled to respond with Administrative responses......only Croke Park can do that and in the link I shared about the situation with the clubs up North, that option was absolutely not on the table.

With the local support seeming to be overwhelming for the club at this point, I think they can live with the consequences.

Croke Park can.

Everyone else can too.

Damn all you could do about it.

LOL......believe what you want.

This could lead to a civil war within the organization
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 11:56:30 AM
Quote from: five points on June 16, 2020, 10:39:07 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 09:18:18 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 02:55:41 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 02:35:41 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

I take it at this point you aren't going to elaborate on the Dan Breen was a Nazi line?

Plenty of evidence all over the internet

https://markhumphrys.com/dan.breen.html

Any chance of a credible, non extremist source?

Mark Humphrys is a wholly credible source. Show him where you think he's wrong on any point and he'll put you right.

He's not extremist either although some people who dislike his work regularly smear him as such as they are unable to directly rebut him.

He is in his hole credible. Have a wander through the rest of his blog, its a cesspit.

He won't 'set you right' if you question him. He will call you an antisemite and block you.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: five points on June 16, 2020, 12:02:05 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 11:56:30 AM

He is in his hole credible. Have a wander through the rest of his blog, its a cesspit.

He won't 'set you right' if you question him. He will call you an antisemite and block you.

Go on Twitter and challenge him on the contents of his (well-referenced) blog. He's there every day. If you steer clear of anti-semitic comments and tropes and refrain from personal abuse, he will have no reason to block you.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 16, 2020, 12:03:04 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 11:56:30 AM
Quote from: five points on June 16, 2020, 10:39:07 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 09:18:18 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 02:55:41 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 02:35:41 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

I take it at this point you aren't going to elaborate on the Dan Breen was a Nazi line?

Plenty of evidence all over the internet

https://markhumphrys.com/dan.breen.html

Any chance of a credible, non extremist source?

Mark Humphrys is a wholly credible source. Show him where you think he's wrong on any point and he'll put you right.

He's not extremist either although some people who dislike his work regularly smear him as such as they are unable to directly rebut him.

He is in his hole credible. Have a wander through the rest of his blog, its a cesspit.

He won't 'set you right' if you question him. He will call you an antisemite and block you.

All the information is original source

Google it and you'll find it all over the web

I shared that link because he pulled it all together
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: johnnycool on June 16, 2020, 12:05:50 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 11:56:30 AM
Quote from: five points on June 16, 2020, 10:39:07 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 09:18:18 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 02:55:41 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 02:35:41 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

I take it at this point you aren't going to elaborate on the Dan Breen was a Nazi line?

Plenty of evidence all over the internet

https://markhumphrys.com/dan.breen.html

Any chance of a credible, non extremist source?

Mark Humphrys is a wholly credible source. Show him where you think he's wrong on any point and he'll put you right.

He's not extremist either although some people who dislike his work regularly smear him as such as they are unable to directly rebut him.

He is in his hole credible. Have a wander through the rest of his blog, its a cesspit.

He won't 'set you right' if you question him. He will call you an antisemite and block you.

+1.

His blinding support of Israel is a bit galling yet everyone else is a terrorist.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 16, 2020, 12:11:41 PM
So did he forge the newspaper article?

Did he forge the book by the American Author?

Did he forge the documents from the German embassy in Dublin?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: five points on June 16, 2020, 12:15:46 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on June 16, 2020, 12:05:50 PM
+1.

His blinding support of Israel is a bit galling yet everyone else is a terrorist.

So you disagree with him. That's grand but it alters not a jot his credibility as a commentator or source.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 16, 2020, 12:25:17 PM
I have a great idea

Let's look at every GAA Club in the land and start a campaign against those clubs who are sponsored by publicans who refuse to serve travellers.  Let's pay special attention to those clubs who have publicans on their executives and lobby Croke Park to withhold their funding
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 16, 2020, 12:47:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

Here's what Joe Brolly said on the matter "It's nobody else's business - it's as simple as that," he said of the Dungiven club's name. "People can either like it or lump it."

It may be the end of the story, but it shouldn't be. Organizations always have rules for membership, playing and conduct; why should names and who they honour not be part of that?

Citing Joe Brolly is neither here nor there.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 12:51:32 PM
Quote from: five points on June 16, 2020, 12:02:05 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 11:56:30 AM

He is in his hole credible. Have a wander through the rest of his blog, its a cesspit.

He won't 'set you right' if you question him. He will call you an antisemite and block you.

Go on Twitter and challenge him on the contents of his (well-referenced) blog. He's there every day. If you steer clear of anti-semitic comments and tropes and refrain from personal abuse, he will have no reason to block you.

Read his blog - take Ewan McKenna. Blocked because he wasn't arsed. The man is an extremist and a hypocrite
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 12:53:51 PM
Quote from: five points on June 16, 2020, 12:15:46 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on June 16, 2020, 12:05:50 PM
+1.

His blinding support of Israel is a bit galling yet everyone else is a terrorist.

So you disagree with him. That's grand but it alters not a jot his credibility as a commentator or source.

Source, maybe. He has zero credibilty as a commentator. He has the standard alt right approach to freeze peach. Demands it for himself, blocks all dissent. Which is ominious from an academic
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 12:56:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 12:11:41 PM
So did he forge the newspaper article?

Did he forge the book by the American Author?

Did he forge the documents from the German embassy in Dublin?

Probably not. But he has form with the Nazi smear.

But lets assume its all valid. Like lots of FF at the time he took the enemies enemy line. But that doesn't make him the Nazi you claimed.

Interesting thread here

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/5kpit1/mark_humphrys_on_twitter_dan_breen_supported_the/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=comments_view_all
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Eire90 on June 16, 2020, 01:04:49 PM
It might be time for the GAA to drop all names associated with people and all names should be the area they are in and must be displayed in English or Irish along with English. Nicknames  names likes shamrocks like that can stay
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: johnnycool on June 16, 2020, 01:18:12 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on June 16, 2020, 01:04:49 PM
It might be time for the GAA to drop all names associated with people and all names should be the area they are in and must be displayed in English or Irish along with English. Nicknames  names likes shamrocks like that can stay

Shamrock has religious connotations with St Patrick and all. They'd have to go as well.

Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Chief on June 16, 2020, 01:29:33 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 11:39:14 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 16, 2020, 11:30:25 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 11:13:22 AM
Quote from: Chief on June 16, 2020, 10:33:56 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 10:23:02 AM
Well then let the community make the call, not some bureaucrat in Croke Park

While unscientific the support online for retaining the name looks to be about 20:1 in favor of retaining

Those opposed IMHO seem to be the local SJWs who've never attended a game in their lives and members of rival clubs trying to stir the pot

It's what I've always said. Ultimately up to them.

But everyone else is entitled to condemn it to the high heavens if they see fit.

And everyone else are entitled to respond with administrative responses if they see fit also.

And the club will have to live with that. Actions/choices have consequences and the club has no entitlement to be insulated from them.

If that means loss of players or sponsors well then tough

"Everyone else" is not entitled to respond with Administrative responses......only Croke Park can do that and in the link I shared about the situation with the clubs up North, that option was absolutely not on the table.

With the local support seeming to be overwhelming for the club at this point, I think they can live with the consequences.

Croke Park can.

Everyone else can too.

Damn all you could do about it.

LOL......believe what you want.

This could lead to a civil war within the organization

"Civil War"?

Settle down you big snowflake, you are far too easily offended....
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:37:02 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 16, 2020, 12:47:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

Here's what Joe Brolly said on the matter "It's nobody else's business - it's as simple as that," he said of the Dungiven club's name. "People can either like it or lump it."

It may be the end of the story, but it shouldn't be. Organizations always have rules for membership, playing and conduct; why should names and who they honour not be part of that?

Citing Joe Brolly is neither here nor there.

So J70.......why set the bar so high at people being offended by something

What if people felt "excluded" by something associated with a club or county. I already mentioned a discussion online about changing a county crest to remove "Dia is Muire Linn"
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: J70 on June 16, 2020, 02:38:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:37:02 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 16, 2020, 12:47:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

Here's what Joe Brolly said on the matter "It's nobody else's business - it's as simple as that," he said of the Dungiven club's name. "People can either like it or lump it."

It may be the end of the story, but it shouldn't be. Organizations always have rules for membership, playing and conduct; why should names and who they honour not be part of that?

Citing Joe Brolly is neither here nor there.

So J70.......why set the bar so high at people being offended by something

What if people felt "excluded" by something associated with a club or county. I already mentioned a discussion online about changing a county crest to remove "Dia is Muire Linn"

I haven't set a bar anywhere. I haven't even called for any actual name changes. I just don't think slippery slope/whataboutery is a valid argument. You could use those "arguments" for anything and everything, and nothing would every change because people like you would be shouting "what about this?" and "what about that?" The idea that if a club was to "give in to the mob" and change their name rather than continuing to honour an unapologetic white supremacist and slavery enthusiast that they'd next be coming for a bland motto or blessing on a badge is ludicrous fearmongering and a bad faith argument. It may be, at some point, that in order to broaden its appeal as Ireland continues to become less catholic and more diverse and cosmopolitan, that the GAA decides to cut back on the nationalistic, tribal element running through the organization; you don't get archbishops throwing the ball or sliotar in at the start of the All Ireland Final any more, after all. But there's a bloody big difference between a traditional blessing on a badge and honouring a racist figure from the past.

So I don't where the bar would be. I would certainly start with the low-hanging fruit, a discussion of figures like Mitchel and whether or not the GAA should continue to honour them. It may be that cases such as Mitchel get consigned to the dustbin, while clubs from the north have compelling arguments why paramilitary figures, much more recent and personal for them, should be retained (or not, I don't know).
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: five points on June 16, 2020, 03:56:55 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 12:53:51 PM
Quote from: five points on June 16, 2020, 12:15:46 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on June 16, 2020, 12:05:50 PM
+1.

His blinding support of Israel is a bit galling yet everyone else is a terrorist.

So you disagree with him. That's grand but it alters not a jot his credibility as a commentator or source.

Source, maybe. He has zero credibilty as a commentator. He has the standard alt right approach to freeze peach. Demands it for himself, blocks all dissent. Which is ominious from an academic

Rubbish, he regularly spends long periods on Twitter jousting with his detractors. If he simply blocked them all, he wouldn't have to. He does block anyone who personally abuses or threatens him. Ewan MacKenna targeted his job so Humphrys blocked him, 100% correctly. MacKenna was still slandering him as recently as last week.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: five points on June 16, 2020, 03:56:55 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 12:53:51 PM
Quote from: five points on June 16, 2020, 12:15:46 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on June 16, 2020, 12:05:50 PM
+1.

His blinding support of Israel is a bit galling yet everyone else is a terrorist.

So you disagree with him. That's grand but it alters not a jot his credibility as a commentator or source.

Source, maybe. He has zero credibilty as a commentator. He has the standard alt right approach to freeze peach. Demands it for himself, blocks all dissent. Which is ominious from an academic

Rubbish, he regularly spends long periods on Twitter jousting with his detractors. If he simply blocked them all, he wouldn't have to. He does block anyone who personally abuses or threatens him. Ewan MacKenna targeted his job so Humphrys blocked him, 100% correctly. MacKenna was still slandering him as recently as last week.

Thats your opinion. Mine is he is an alt right louse, hypocrite, pseudo intellectual. But regardless of which of us are right, he is cited as an expert why?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: sid waddell on June 16, 2020, 06:04:45 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 11:56:30 AM
Quote from: five points on June 16, 2020, 10:39:07 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 09:18:18 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 02:55:41 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 02:35:41 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

I take it at this point you aren't going to elaborate on the Dan Breen was a Nazi line?

Plenty of evidence all over the internet

https://markhumphrys.com/dan.breen.html

Any chance of a credible, non extremist source?

Mark Humphrys is a wholly credible source. Show him where you think he's wrong on any point and he'll put you right.

He's not extremist either although some people who dislike his work regularly smear him as such as they are unable to directly rebut him.

He is in his hole credible. Have a wander through the rest of his blog, its a cesspit.

He won't 'set you right' if you question him. He will call you an antisemite and block you.
Mark Humphrys is most definitely an extremist and a lunatic and his views on most things can be dismissed as the rantings of such.

But there's little doubt Breen was a Nazi sympathiser.
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 16, 2020, 08:09:55 PM
Anyone have their coffee out Bewley's?

The cafes will be getting burned down soon
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 09:42:01 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 16, 2020, 06:04:45 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 11:56:30 AM
Quote from: five points on June 16, 2020, 10:39:07 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 09:18:18 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 02:55:41 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 02:35:41 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

I take it at this point you aren't going to elaborate on the Dan Breen was a Nazi line?

Plenty of evidence all over the internet

https://markhumphrys.com/dan.breen.html

Any chance of a credible, non extremist source?

Mark Humphrys is a wholly credible source. Show him where you think he's wrong on any point and he'll put you right.

He's not extremist either although some people who dislike his work regularly smear him as such as they are unable to directly rebut him.

He is in his hole credible. Have a wander through the rest of his blog, its a cesspit.

He won't 'set you right' if you question him. He will call you an antisemite and block you.
Mark Humphrys is most definitely an extremist and a lunatic and his views on most things can be dismissed as the rantings of such.

But there's little doubt Breen was a Nazi sympathiser.

As in believed in the tenents and aims of the National Socialist movement of Germany or wanted someone, anyone, to batter the Brits?
Title: Re: John Mitchel - a lover of slavery - time to remove his name from GAA clubs?
Post by: whitey on June 16, 2020, 10:21:50 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 09:42:01 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 16, 2020, 06:04:45 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 11:56:30 AM
Quote from: five points on June 16, 2020, 10:39:07 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 09:18:18 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 02:55:41 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 16, 2020, 02:35:41 AM
Quote from: whitey on June 16, 2020, 01:39:18 AM
They can look at it all they want.....the decision should rest with the club......end of story

The "reputation" of the wider GAA could also be adversely affected by their association with paedophiles, Nazi sympathizers and IRA/INLA murder squads, but they're willing to take that risk because an internet mob haven't happened upon them.......yet

I take it at this point you aren't going to elaborate on the Dan Breen was a Nazi line?

Plenty of evidence all over the internet

https://markhumphrys.com/dan.breen.html

Any chance of a credible, non extremist source?

Mark Humphrys is a wholly credible source. Show him where you think he's wrong on any point and he'll put you right.

He's not extremist either although some people who dislike his work regularly smear him as such as they are unable to directly rebut him.

He is in his hole credible. Have a wander through the rest of his blog, its a cesspit.

He won't 'set you right' if you question him. He will call you an antisemite and block you.
Mark Humphrys is most definitely an extremist and a lunatic and his views on most things can be dismissed as the rantings of such.

But there's little doubt Breen was a Nazi sympathiser.

As in believed in the tenents and aims of the National Socialist movement of Germany or wanted someone, anyone, to batter the Brits?

No....he was a full blown sympathizer. Even Had a picture of Hitler up in his house.

Tom Barry too.....actually went over and visited them