The ulster rugby trial

Started by caprea, February 01, 2018, 11:45:56 PM

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David McKeown

Quote from: caprea on April 01, 2018, 03:15:21 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 01, 2018, 02:38:52 PM
Capera

What exactly was the judiciary supposed to do about the vaginal charge for Olding? How was it sloppy work?

Drop the charge I would have thought. It really depends how late they knew they wouldn't be presenting a case to prosecute it no?

Since writing the blog I think what happened is the girl wasn't sure if Olding had vaginal sex with her. She said she was face down so couldn't be sure.

Guess it depends on the timeline of finding that out.

But that's nothing to do with the judiciary. The decision of what charges to bring is the sole preserve of the PPS. Once Olding entered a not guilty plea to the charge at arraignment (and I imagine there must have been some evidence to ground that charge at that stage) the only way it could have played out is exactly how it did.
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caprea

Quote from: David McKeown on April 01, 2018, 03:30:20 PM
Quote from: caprea on April 01, 2018, 03:15:21 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 01, 2018, 02:38:52 PM
Capera

What exactly was the judiciary supposed to do about the vaginal charge for Olding? How was it sloppy work?

Drop the charge I would have thought. It really depends how late they knew they wouldn't be presenting a case to prosecute it no?

Since writing the blog I think what happened is the girl wasn't sure if Olding had vaginal sex with her. She said she was face down so couldn't be sure.

Guess it depends on the timeline of finding that out.

But that's nothing to do with the judiciary. The decision of what charges to bring is the sole preserve of the PPS. Once Olding entered a not guilty plea to the charge at arraignment (and I imagine there must have been some evidence to ground that charge at that stage) the only way it could have played out is exactly how it did.

Of course. I'm wrong.

brokencrossbar1

Quote from: caprea on April 01, 2018, 03:40:14 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 01, 2018, 03:30:20 PM
Quote from: caprea on April 01, 2018, 03:15:21 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 01, 2018, 02:38:52 PM
Capera

What exactly was the judiciary supposed to do about the vaginal charge for Olding? How was it sloppy work?

Drop the charge I would have thought. It really depends how late they knew they wouldn't be presenting a case to prosecute it no?

Since writing the blog I think what happened is the girl wasn't sure if Olding had vaginal sex with her. She said she was face down so couldn't be sure.

Guess it depends on the timeline of finding that out.

But that's nothing to do with the judiciary. The decision of what charges to bring is the sole preserve of the PPS. Once Olding entered a not guilty plea to the charge at arraignment (and I imagine there must have been some evidence to ground that charge at that stage) the only way it could have played out is exactly how it did.

Of course. I'm wrong.

Please can you teach Suffering some humility like that!!!

caprea

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 01, 2018, 03:42:04 PM
Quote from: caprea on April 01, 2018, 03:40:14 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 01, 2018, 03:30:20 PM
Quote from: caprea on April 01, 2018, 03:15:21 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 01, 2018, 02:38:52 PM
Capera

What exactly was the judiciary supposed to do about the vaginal charge for Olding? How was it sloppy work?

Drop the charge I would have thought. It really depends how late they knew they wouldn't be presenting a case to prosecute it no?

Since writing the blog I think what happened is the girl wasn't sure if Olding had vaginal sex with her. She said she was face down so couldn't be sure.

Guess it depends on the timeline of finding that out.

But that's nothing to do with the judiciary. The decision of what charges to bring is the sole preserve of the PPS. Once Olding entered a not guilty plea to the charge at arraignment (and I imagine there must have been some evidence to ground that charge at that stage) the only way it could have played out is exactly how it did.

Of course. I'm wrong.

Please can you teach Suffering some humility like that!!!

Think it affects almost all humans in arguments. People too keen to stand by arguments that are disproven instead of being happy to be educated and enlightened.

whitey

Holy $hit.....some proper two baggers  at the protest marches

RedHand88

Quote from: whitey on April 01, 2018, 04:08:20 PM
Holy $hit.....some proper two baggers  at the protest marches

Two baggers??

Orior

Quote from: RedHand88 on April 01, 2018, 06:41:21 PM
Quote from: whitey on April 01, 2018, 04:08:20 PM
Holy $hit.....some proper two baggers  at the protest marches

Two baggers??

One for her head and one for yours.
Cover me in chocolate and feed me to the lesbians

Owen Brannigan

Major change in policy for UK's biggest police force:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/it-isnt-all-about-victims-met-police-to-abandon-practice-of-believing-all-sex-assault-complaints-a3803791.html

Also Chief prosecutor in England & Wales, Alison Saunders, to stand down after 'disastrous' tenure at CPS when sex crimes and their prosecution have come under the microscope.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/alison-saunders-public-prosecutions-dpp-leave-stand-down-cps-controversy-rape-trials-a8284486.html

Syferus

Quote from: Orior on April 01, 2018, 06:57:11 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on April 01, 2018, 06:41:21 PM
Quote from: whitey on April 01, 2018, 04:08:20 PM
Holy $hit.....some proper two baggers  at the protest marches

Two baggers??

One for her head and one for yours.

Do you find these lame jokes funny? You're basically Tony Feron without a hardon for bishops.


Farrandeelin

Quote from: Syferus on April 02, 2018, 02:37:58 PM
Quote from: Orior on April 01, 2018, 06:57:11 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on April 01, 2018, 06:41:21 PM
Quote from: whitey on April 01, 2018, 04:08:20 PM
Holy $hit.....some proper two baggers  at the protest marches

Two baggers??

One for her head and one for yours.

Do you find these lame jokes funny? You're basically Tony Feron without a hardon for bishops.

And you're basically a Tony F spouting shite on every thread. At least Fearon stuck to the bishops.
Inaugural Football Championship Prediction Winner.

brokencrossbar1

Quote from: Owen Brannigan on April 02, 2018, 02:43:30 PM
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/rugby-rape-trial-witness-dara-florence-turned-down-big-cash-offers-to-sell-story-36761928.html

When that evidence is seen as the key corroborating evidence for the prosecution you seriously have to question why they called her as a witness at all. That's the sort of evidence the defence would have used! 

David McKeown

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 02, 2018, 03:18:16 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on April 02, 2018, 02:43:30 PM
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/rugby-rape-trial-witness-dara-florence-turned-down-big-cash-offers-to-sell-story-36761928.html

When that evidence is seen as the key corroborating evidence for the prosecution you seriously have to question why they called her as a witness at all. That's the sort of evidence the defence would have used!

I was thinking something similar although it's somewhat presumptuous of the Belfast telegraph to assume this was the turning point. May have been but not guaranteed.
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brokencrossbar1

Quote from: David McKeown on April 02, 2018, 03:20:22 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 02, 2018, 03:18:16 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on April 02, 2018, 02:43:30 PM
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/rugby-rape-trial-witness-dara-florence-turned-down-big-cash-offers-to-sell-story-36761928.html

When that evidence is seen as the key corroborating evidence for the prosecution you seriously have to question why they called her as a witness at all. That's the sort of evidence the defence would have used!

I was thinking something similar although it's somewhat presumptuous of the Belfast telegraph to assume this was the turning point. May have been but not guaranteed.

That's as much to sensationalise it more than anything. I honestly would question the validity in taking this prosecution in the first place. The complainants story was inconsistent, no medical evidence whatsoever of vaginal sex, the only physical evidence of note was some blood and a small cut which could be very easily explained through the fact that Jackson said he put his fingers inside her, the main corroborating witness openly stating that the complainant did not seem in distress and that Olding had his hands on his own legs when he was receiving oral sex, to my mind that all adds up to a very weak prosecution case and when it comes down to a 'he said she said' then it is nearly impossible to convict.

David McKeown

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 02, 2018, 03:32:53 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 02, 2018, 03:20:22 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 02, 2018, 03:18:16 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on April 02, 2018, 02:43:30 PM
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/rugby-rape-trial-witness-dara-florence-turned-down-big-cash-offers-to-sell-story-36761928.html

When that evidence is seen as the key corroborating evidence for the prosecution you seriously have to question why they called her as a witness at all. That's the sort of evidence the defence would have used!

I was thinking something similar although it's somewhat presumptuous of the Belfast telegraph to assume this was the turning point. May have been but not guaranteed.

That's as much to sensationalise it more than anything. I honestly would question the validity in taking this prosecution in the first place. The complainants story was inconsistent, no medical evidence whatsoever of vaginal sex, the only physical evidence of note was some blood and a small cut which could be very easily explained through the fact that Jackson said he put his fingers inside her, the main corroborating witness openly stating that the complainant did not seem in distress and that Olding had his hands on his own legs when he was receiving oral sex, to my mind that all adds up to a very weak prosecution case and when it comes down to a 'he said she said' then it is nearly impossible to convict.

That coupled with the decision to persue a charge of vaginal rape against Olding at least to arraignment does raise serious questions. Of course we have the beauty of hindsight here and don't know what if any evidence wasn't available/admissible at least the trial. That coupled with a complainant who seemed credible and may have been keen to proceed might explain the bringing of the prosecution. It may have looked a strong case on paper.
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