Ashers cake controversy.

Started by T Fearon, November 07, 2014, 06:36:39 PM

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David McKeown

Quote from: Main Street on October 12, 2018, 10:38:03 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 09:16:43 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 12, 2018, 09:08:36 PM
Would Ashers make a cake with Mr Lee's picture and "Proud to be gay" for anyone?

That's why I think it would be interesting. Realistically it would be a lot harder to suggest that someone who isn't gay would ever request a cake like that. The Supreme Court judgement to me isn't clear whether this example would be dissociable discrimination.
That still falls under  "obliging them to supply a cake iced with a message with which they profoundly disagreed" as a matter of religious conscience.
Profoundly being the key word.
And it also still falls under this peculiar form of blatant cynical entrapment.

Oh I don't disagree about this example being entrapment.

On your other point the Supreme Court seemed to me to suggest that they considered religious consciousness against a background of discrimination on the basis of political opinion and how the owners own rights to free expression of their genuinely held beliefs could and should be balanced in that context. They seemed to draw a distinction though at least by my reading in so far as they seemed to make no comment on what may have occurred had this to be discrimination based on sexual orientation and there is a clear difference between the two. One is an inherent charatistic of a person whilst the other is acquirred. Not saying it necessarily would have made a difference but I got the impression reading the judgement that it may have but having reached the decision no dissociable discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation it didn't arise in this case and courts try to never make decisions they don't have too.
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omaghjoe

Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 09:16:43 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 12, 2018, 09:08:36 PM
Would Ashers make a cake with Mr Lee's picture and "Proud to be gay" for anyone?

That's why I think it would be interesting. Realistically it would be a lot harder to suggest that someone who isn't gay would ever request a cake like that. The Supreme Court judgement to me isn't clear whether this example would be dissociable discrimination.

Sounds more like a cake lads would have done for a gag than anything a gay person would request.

David McKeown

Quote from: hardstation on October 12, 2018, 09:42:46 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 09:16:43 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 12, 2018, 09:08:36 PM
Would Ashers make a cake with Mr Lee's picture and "Proud to be gay" for anyone?

That's why I think it would be interesting. Realistically it would be a lot harder to suggest that someone who isn't gay would ever request a cake like that. The Supreme Court judgement to me isn't clear whether this example would be dissociable discrimination.
I don't really follow. Someone could send their ma down to order it if they hadn't the time. Ashers would refuse her too.
I don't see how there could ever be a situation whereby we can be certain that only gay people would order a particular cake.

There will always be extreme examples that could be used to argue against dissociable discrimination Which is why I wonder just how wide is discrimination. The first two courts definition was rejected as being too wide but no real guidance was given by the Supreme Court how wide it actually is.
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David McKeown

Quote from: omaghjoe on October 12, 2018, 10:56:44 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 09:16:43 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 12, 2018, 09:08:36 PM
Would Ashers make a cake with Mr Lee's picture and "Proud to be gay" for anyone?

That's why I think it would be interesting. Realistically it would be a lot harder to suggest that someone who isn't gay would ever request a cake like that. The Supreme Court judgement to me isn't clear whether this example would be dissociable discrimination.

Sounds more like a cake lads would have done for a gag than anything a gay person would request.

Perhaps it's a poor example. The point I'm trying to make is I wonder now how wide dissociable discrimination is. The Supreme Court accepts it does exist and is outlawed by anti discrimination law but I'm not sure how much protection it affords.
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Main Street

Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 11:01:04 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 12, 2018, 10:56:44 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 09:16:43 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 12, 2018, 09:08:36 PM
Would Ashers make a cake with Mr Lee's picture and "Proud to be gay" for anyone?

That's why I think it would be interesting. Realistically it would be a lot harder to suggest that someone who isn't gay would ever request a cake like that. The Supreme Court judgement to me isn't clear whether this example would be dissociable discrimination.

Sounds more like a cake lads would have done for a gag than anything a gay person would request.

Perhaps it's a poor example. The point I'm trying to make is I wonder now how wide dissociable discrimination is. The Supreme Court accepts it does exist and is outlawed by anti discrimination law but I'm not sure how much protection it affords.
in this case the supreme court came to  a good judgement, not just good but very good. But is it a judgement for the ages? I don't think so. The  dependency that the british legal system puts  on precedence is not appropriate when the law has to get involved with the shifting sands of modern day social interaction.

David McKeown

Quote from: Main Street on October 13, 2018, 11:07:34 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 11:01:04 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 12, 2018, 10:56:44 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 09:16:43 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 12, 2018, 09:08:36 PM
Would Ashers make a cake with Mr Lee's picture and "Proud to be gay" for anyone?

That's why I think it would be interesting. Realistically it would be a lot harder to suggest that someone who isn't gay would ever request a cake like that. The Supreme Court judgement to me isn't clear whether this example would be dissociable discrimination.

Sounds more like a cake lads would have done for a gag than anything a gay person would request.

Perhaps it's a poor example. The point I'm trying to make is I wonder now how wide dissociable discrimination is. The Supreme Court accepts it does exist and is outlawed by anti discrimination law but I'm not sure how much protection it affords.
in this case the supreme court came to  a good judgement, not just good but very good. But is it a judgement for the ages? I don't think so. The  dependency that the british legal system puts  on precedence is not appropriate when the law has to get involved with the shifting sands of modern day social interaction.

I foresee an introduction to jurisprudence essay question here. Do what extent do judges make the law?

I've no issue with the judgement in this case. I think it's a very difficult issue and I've been swayed both ways as the judgements have issued and I can see merit in both sides of the coin.
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