The Paudie O'Se Cup

[BennyCake]

The current system for all its faults at least allows most counties the opportunity of at least one winnable provincial championship match in most years followed by at least one game in the qualifiers, the early rounds of which involve a decent probability of meeting beatable opposition.

Whoopedy do!

The qualifiers are patronizing smaller counties. Wicklow, you were stuffed by 45 points by Dublin in Leinster, but look, you play Cavan in the first qualifier. And you only lost by 20 points. But at least you got two games, so atleast you weren't training all year for one match. No, you got two! Keep up the good work lads, and maybe next year you'll get 3 games! 

[Farrandeelin]

do we want either to prioritise the preservation of traditions and established structures, or do we want a structure that's as fair as possible?

In life as in the GAA, dumping traditions and established structures in search of a holy grail of fairness is usually a fool's errand.

The provincially-based championship has its drawbacks but so too would an open draw-based league system. To take a random example a championship group of Cavan, Wexford, Waterford and Cork wouldn't exactly set pulses racing.

No, it wouldn't.

But a potential first round knock out fixture of Kerry Tyrone, Mayo Dublin or Donegal Kerry would. And a fortunate draw seeing the likes of Louth or Sligo in an AI semi, would do more for football in those counties than years of funding or coaches.

That's why an open draw is the only way.

We'll never see it now though. It's all about milking the tits off that big fat cash cow.

Jaysus, no way!  How on earth could it be good for the game to have Kerry knocked out by Tyrone and Donegal knocked out by Dublin in the first round, with Mayo knocking out Dublin in the second round and Louth in an AI semi, cos they beat Waterford, London, New York and Limerick.  Everyone thought it was wonderful when London made it to the Connaught Final in 2013. I thought it was a feckin joke to be fair. 

I would prefer to have seedings to reduce the number of mismatches.

I think it would be great if Kerry lost to Tyrone or anyone else in the first round for that matter.

[APM]

do we want either to prioritise the preservation of traditions and established structures, or do we want a structure that's as fair as possible?

In life as in the GAA, dumping traditions and established structures in search of a holy grail of fairness is usually a fool's errand.

The provincially-based championship has its drawbacks but so too would an open draw-based league system. To take a random example a championship group of Cavan, Wexford, Waterford and Cork wouldn't exactly set pulses racing.

No, it wouldn't.

But a potential first round knock out fixture of Kerry Tyrone, Mayo Dublin or Donegal Kerry would. And a fortunate draw seeing the likes of Louth or Sligo in an AI semi, would do more for football in those counties than years of funding or coaches.

That's why an open draw is the only way.

We'll never see it now though. It's all about milking the tits off that big fat cash cow.

Jaysus, no way!  How on earth could it be good for the game to have Kerry knocked out by Tyrone and Donegal knocked out by Dublin in the first round, with Mayo knocking out Dublin in the second round and Louth in an AI semi, cos they beat Waterford, London, New York and Limerick.  Everyone thought it was wonderful when London made it to the Connaught Final in 2013. I thought it was a feckin joke to be fair. 

I would prefer to have seedings to reduce the number of mismatches.

I think it would be great if Kerry lost to Tyrone or anyone else in the first round for that matter.

I could get on board if it was Tyrone losing to Kerry   In all seriousness, and I'm arguing against my previous point, I suppose this was the way of it in 1991 and the Dubs v Meath.  One big hitter out in the Leinster Preliminary Round.  Same with Derry v Down in 1994. Two of the most memorable contests in the history of the GAA and the fact that both games were early on and everything was on the line for them was probably what made the championship so special.  Maybe we're fed up with teams getting a second chance. 

[BennyCake]

Exactly apm.

First round ties, probably two of the most famous. Both teams potential AI winners. Do or die. That's what the c'ship is missing.

[APM]

Exactly apm.

First round ties, probably two of the most famous. Both teams potential AI winners. Do or die. That's what the c'ship is missing.

In fact, that year in question of 1994, when Down bt Derry, the Dubs beat Leitrim by 12 in the semi.  To be fair to Leitrim, it wasn't a case of beating London & Sligo, as they came past Galway, Roscommon and Mayo - so there was no question that their progress was hard won and well-deserved. 

I can only assume that the whole of Leitrim and their diaspora came to Croke for that game - I remember watching it, but not much about it.  If the same thing was to happen now and they reached the Super 8s, I think the supporters would fear for them.  Back then, the whole question of "its all on the day" meant that there was more hope for a team like Leitrim going to Croke Park.  They could give it a lash and enjoy it. 

I doubt their supporters would relish the prospect of 3 games against Tyrone, Kerry and Dublin.  The hammerings are more severe, the stronger teams are better at holding possession and game management, so it really does turn into men against boys and the prospect of humiliation in Croke Park, is not that appealing.  To endure it once is bad enough, but to have to face up to the prospect of two more would be a bit horrific and undo all the good done by a good run in the championship up to that point. Better a clean cold execution, than being kept on life support and tortured for three weeks. This is not an edifying sight for neutrals never mind the counties that have to go through it.

This to me is one area where the Super 8s is wrong, but bringing in tiers to rectify it is wrong too, as tiers kills the prospect of the triumph of the underdog, which is one of the great scenarios in sport.  The GAA needs the romance of the successful underdog, but it also needs to ensure that the dog isn't run down over in the first round of the super 8s, only to spend the next three weeks stumbling about the place with its guts hanging out until it is eventually put out of its misery. 

[BennyCake]

Exactly apm.

First round ties, probably two of the most famous. Both teams potential AI winners. Do or die. That's what the c'ship is missing.

In fact, that year in question of 1994, when Down bt Derry, the Dubs beat Leitrim by 12 in the semi.  To be fair to Leitrim, it wasn't a case of beating London & Sligo, as they came past Galway, Roscommon and Mayo - so there was no question that their progress was hard won and well-deserved. 

I can only assume that the whole of Leitrim and their diaspora came to Croke for that game - I remember watching it, but not much about it.  If the same thing was to happen now and they reached the Super 8s, I think the supporters would fear for them.  Back then, the whole question of "its all on the day" meant that there was more hope for a team like Leitrim going to Croke Park.  They could give it a lash and enjoy it. 

I doubt their supporters would relish the prospect of 3 games against Tyrone, Kerry and Dublin.  The hammerings are more severe, the stronger teams are better at holding possession and game management, so it really does turn into men against boys and the prospect of humiliation in Croke Park, is not that appealing.  To endure it once is bad enough, but to have to face up to the prospect of two more would be a bit horrific and undo all the good done by a good run in the championship up to that point. Better a clean cold execution, than being kept on life support and tortured for three weeks. This is not an edifying sight for neutrals never mind the counties that have to go through it.

This to me is one area where the Super 8s is wrong, but bringing in tiers to rectify it is wrong too, as tiers kills the prospect of the triumph of the underdog, which is one of the great scenarios in sport.  The GAA needs the romance of the successful underdog, but it also needs to ensure that the dog isn't run down over in the first round of the super 8s, only to spend the next three weeks stumbling about the place with its guts hanging out until it is eventually put out of its misery.

Yeah I agree.

As hard as it was to get beat by Tyrone last year by 18 points, two more similar beatings by a Dublin and Kerry would have done Armagh absolutely no good whatsoever. And wiuld have completely undone the good work in the qualifiers.

Tyrone were better, fresher. We were on the go 4/5 weeks and had a couple injured. You can move on and get over one bad day. Where do you start if you get three trashings? It would be so demoralising for a squad.

[Rossfan]

We'll let you know later 

[Syferus]

I'm genuinely embarrassed by the idea of a supporter being afraid of their team getting too far in the championship. Why bother at all?

[trailer]

Any progress in the Championship must be earned. Handy draws for shite teams who make it to the latter stages is pointless. They finish up taking a huge tanking somewhere along the line that arguably puts them back further.

[APM]

I'm genuinely embarrassed by the idea of a supporter being afraid of their team getting too far in the championship. Why bother at all?

We're you not genuinely embarrassed by the Roscommon performance v Tyrone? Look, you play what's in front of you, but serious question, would Roscommon be better of this year taking that beating from Tyrone and going home for the winter, or having to play a dead rubber against Dublin next week.  All I'm saying is that, as a supporter, I wouldn't have relished the prospect of further humiliation after the Tyrone hammering last year in Croke Park.  Once you're minus 18pts on scoring difference after one game, with Dublin and Donegal still to play, the players also know the game is up. There's not much you can do to recover from that type of beating in one week. You're just playing for pride and the hope is really gone.  That is a season ending style hammering, particularly when it happens in the latter end of the season. 

**Edit**
The point is I wouldn't want tiers and want the opportunity for Armagh to progress, but one hammering of 18pts would have been enough to tell us were not good enough.  Three one-sided games where we simply don't compete, seems unnecessarily cruel.  It does more harm than good and with the stronger teams getting more competitive games against eachother, it brings them on.  But again, from a Kildare point of view, it should act as a good launchpad for success next year, given that they have been competitive in each game, despite losing. 

[Syferus]

I was disappointed but I've never been embarasssed by losing any match. We're clearly in the top eight - had Armagh got to back to back AIQFs they'd have had a good case too. Just because we shipped a few beatings doesn't mean you were better off losing before you got there. It's such a defeatist attitude.

[APM]

I was disappointed but I've never been embarasssed by losing any match. We're clearly in the top eight - had Armagh got to back to back AIQFs they'd have had a good case too. Just because we shipped a few beatings doesn't mean you were better off losing before you got there. It's such a defeatist attitude.

Look, maybe you'll restore some pride in the Dublin game.  I hope you do, as I enjoyed watching ye in Portlaoise and enjoyed the craic in the stands.   The support is first class.

But are you telling me that a points difference of -42 at the end of this campaign, with the final game played in front of 95% Dublin fans in Parnell Park will be better for the development of this Roscommon team, than exiting directly after the Tyrone game. 

My point is not that you shouldn't aspire to be there, but that the structure of the Super 8s will actually be MORE detrimental to Roscommon's development this year than a quick QF exit.

[Rossfan]

While we'd beat at least 18 teams out there in Championship football we were badly exposed in the last 8  thanks to the soft draw route.
(Not to mention management doing nothing to improve the deficiencies so badly exposed in the 2017 NFL and by the dark forces of Mayowestros in August 2017).
Those unrectified deficiencies were more public you exposed in a tight time frame this year.
No matter what tiers might or might not be introduced our current team would be Tier 1/Senior or whatever you want to call it.
Maybe our current (suspended) manager may be able to see our weaknesses better due to 3 defeats ?

[BennyCake]

I'm genuinely embarrassed by the idea of a supporter being afraid of their team getting too far in the championship. Why bother at all?

See reply #85.

[Captain Obvious]

as tiers kills the prospect of the triumph of the underdog, which is one of the great scenarios in sport.  The GAA needs the romance of the successful underdog, but it also needs to ensure that the dog isn't run down over in the first round of the super 8s, only to spend the next three weeks stumbling about the place with its guts hanging out until it is eventually put out of its misery.

Couldn't agree more. Some think all that matters is who becomes the number one team however the underdog story is one of the most important things in any competition. A round robin for the last eight was never suited for the underdog you find out enough about yourself after one Quarter final knock out game. In Roscommon's case how big of underdog are they? only last year they beat Galway well who in turn are now into All Ireland semi final and Roscommon will be in Division one again next year. Roscommon might go away from their 3 Super 8s games now and look to work hard on their deficiencies or is that possible under that fella McStay?