Ashers cake controversy.

Started by T Fearon, November 07, 2014, 06:36:39 PM

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Quote from: armaghniac on October 11, 2018, 12:45:05 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on October 11, 2018, 12:31:10 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 11, 2018, 12:15:28 PM
Why deny it to someone  and their mother?
Yeah because that's the same thing  ::) Tell me is there a significant number of people hiding in the closet who want to get off with their son/mother/father/daughter? Are they meeting up in underground nightclubs with other mother and son couples? What part of Armagh are you from  ;D.

There are some, the exact number is not the point. 

QuoteHere do us all a favour and stick your mask back on and spare us your homophobic bile dressed up as pseudo religious waffle.

Ah yes, the usual resort to abuse, a clear sign that your argument does not stand on its own merit.
Incidentally, which point did I make that was "pseudo religious"?

Wow. This incestuous line is a smokescreen.
Incest is unlawful as it can lead to defects in reproduction and is dangerous for the children. This is widely known.
Underage sex or marriage is also outlawed as one or both of the parties involved may not be of a mature age to make and informed decision.
None of these can be translated to reason for the banning of gay marriage.

Do you know where the concept of marriage came from? Do you understand the concept? And it's background? And why it is still used today?
You are terribly vocal on a subject you seem to be so poorly informed on. Very sad.

tonto1888

Quote from: armaghniac on October 11, 2018, 12:15:28 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 11, 2018, 12:10:45 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 11, 2018, 10:36:52 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on October 11, 2018, 09:03:41 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on October 11, 2018, 09:01:46 AM
A sordid campaign according to you. You let the mask slip there a bit, but sure nothing to do with God or your beliefs....


Took the words out of my mouth

I believe that a campaign to undermine marriage, a fundamental building block of human society, is sordid.
God didn't tell me that.
If it's a fundamental building block of human society, why deny it to gay couples?

Why deny it to someone  and their mother?

You like  to deflect don't you.

armaghniac

Quote from: HiMucker on October 11, 2018, 12:54:37 PM
You think being gay is immoral. There is no point beating around the bush, pardon the pun. I don't think that sort of view deserves the credibility of an indepth debate, others can knock themselves out. I was hardly abusive, I called your views for what they are.

No doubt with a similar lack of evidence I can say that you are motivated by the devil himself.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

David McKeown

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on October 11, 2018, 10:02:14 AM
Any business has the right to refuse to do a bespoke job. It happens all the time. Its not discrimination*.

No business has the right to refuse someone an existing item based on that person's creed or sexual orientation.


Pretty straightforward to me - not at all surprised that the legal system seen fit to line their pockets to the tune of >£500k in meandering to that conclusion.



*Here, Charles Hurst - I want a new ferrari that is painted black with pink dots for 20p. What do you mean you aren't going to do that? DISCRIMINATION!!!! Whats the equality commission's number?

Not the conclusion they arrived at though.
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Main Street

Quote from: David McKeown on October 11, 2018, 08:50:17 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on October 11, 2018, 10:02:14 AM
Any business has the right to refuse to do a bespoke job. It happens all the time. Its not discrimination*.

No business has the right to refuse someone an existing item based on that person's creed or sexual orientation.


Pretty straightforward to me - not at all surprised that the legal system seen fit to line their pockets to the tune of >£500k in meandering to that conclusion.



*Here, Charles Hurst - I want a new ferrari that is painted black with pink dots for 20p. What do you mean you aren't going to do that? DISCRIMINATION!!!! Whats the equality commission's number?

Not the conclusion they arrived at though.
However its a close enough (flexible) interpretation of the 5 judges' opinion as to not worth an objection.
Belfast telegraph
"Ashers bakery, did not discriminate against him because of his sexual orientation, but refused his order because of their deeply held objection to the message."

David McKeown

Yes but if you read the judgement the ratio is more clearly the lower court erred on how widely they interpreted dissociable discrimination. On the facts of this case Mr Lee was not discriminated against on the basis of his sexuality or political opinion.

It stopped well short of saying any business has the right to refuse a bespoke job and such an interpretation is not close enough to describe current anti discrimination law.
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macdanger2

Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 12:18:34 AM
Yes but if you read the judgement the ratio is more clearly the lower court erred on how widely they interpreted dissociable discrimination. On the facts of this case Mr Lee was not discriminated against on the basis of his sexuality or political opinion.

It stopped well short of saying any business has the right to refuse a bespoke job and such an interpretation is not close enough to describe current anti discrimination law.

Could you explain what "dissociable discrimination" means? Thanks in advance

RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: David McKeown on October 11, 2018, 08:50:17 PM
Not the conclusion they arrived at though.

<sigh> I know.

Why make a statement that makes things clear and obvious to all when there is further money to be gleamed from the taxpayer?
i usse an speelchekor

RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 12:18:34 AM
It stopped well short of saying any business has the right to refuse a bespoke job

Any business DOES have the right to refuse to do a bespoke job! It happens every day across the world.

How the court didn't just say that this is an instance of that I don't know. Instead they've left things vague and already I see a bad interpretation of it being applied in an attempt at reciprocity.



[I'm kinda amazed that you are even suggesting that any customer can demand a business perform a dedicated/bespoke piece of work for them - even if that business has no wish to perform the work.]
i usse an speelchekor

David McKeown

Quote from: macdanger2 on October 12, 2018, 09:21:02 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 12:18:34 AM
Yes but if you read the judgement the ratio is more clearly the lower court erred on how widely they interpreted dissociable discrimination. On the facts of this case Mr Lee was not discriminated against on the basis of his sexuality or political opinion.

It stopped well short of saying any business has the right to refuse a bespoke job and such an interpretation is not close enough to describe current anti discrimination law.

Could you explain what "dissociable discrimination" means? Thanks in advance

A discrimination claim can only be brought on certain protected characteristics such as age sex, sexual orientation etc. Dissociable discrimination is when the discrimination is not directly on one of those characteristics but is on some other ground where's its impact is so extreme that it May as well be on one of those characteristics.

The example the Supreme Court gave was when a swimming pool discriminated on the basis of whether the customer was eligible for state pension or not. Being eligible for state pension is not a protected characteristic per se however the impact was such that it de facto amounted to age and sex discrimination on the basis that only over 60 year old women and only over 65 year old men were being discriminated against.

Originally the courts here held that support for gay marriage was dissociable from a persons sexuality and political beliefs on the basis that realistically the only people who would want a cake with a support gay marriage message would be those of certain sexualities and/or political beliefs.
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David McKeown

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on October 12, 2018, 09:51:38 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 12:18:34 AM
It stopped well short of saying any business has the right to refuse a bespoke job

Any business DOES have the right to refuse to do a bespoke job! It happens every day across the world.

How the court didn't just say that this is an instance of that I don't know. Instead they've left things vague and already I see a bad interpretation of it being applied in an attempt at reciprocity.



[I'm kinda amazed that you are even suggesting that any customer can demand a business perform a dedicated/bespoke piece of work for them - even if that business has no wish to perform the work.]

I'm not suggesting a customer can demand a business perform a dedicated bespoke piece of work what I am saying and what the Supreme Court have said is that if they are to turn down work they can not do so in such a way as amount to discrimination. For example in one of your earlier examples you mention about making a car at a ludicrously cheap amount. A business could refuse to do that for everyone on the basis of it not being cost effective. They could however not agree to do it for me but refuse to do for someone else on the basis of their skin colour.

Similarly they couldn't refuse to do it because and I just use the example the Supreme Court did, for me but agree to do it for my father on the basis he is eligible for state pension and I am not. That would be dissociable discrimination.

What would have been interesting is whether or not Ashers would have been discriminating against Mr Lee had he asked for a photo of himself and the message "proud to be gay" and Ashers refused that.
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David McKeown

Quote from: hardstation on October 12, 2018, 09:08:36 PM
Would Ashers make a cake with Mr Lee's picture and "Proud to be gay" for anyone?

That's why I think it would be interesting. Realistically it would be a lot harder to suggest that someone who isn't gay would ever request a cake like that. The Supreme Court judgement to me isn't clear whether this example would be dissociable discrimination.
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Olly

I'm shocked by this decision. If I went into a Spar shop and said to the cashier that I would like a gay magazine they would get it for me no questions asked and take my £4.99. Why is the cake shop being different? You often find that people who don't like homosexuals are usually half inclined to like them secretly. It's like people who hate other things like the Chinese or vinegar. They are usually eating Chineses or eat products with loads of vinegar on them naturally like beetroot or pot noodles.
Access to this webpage has been denied . This website has been categorised as "Sexual Material".

macdanger2

Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 08:45:18 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on October 12, 2018, 09:21:02 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 12:18:34 AM
Yes but if you read the judgement the ratio is more clearly the lower court erred on how widely they interpreted dissociable discrimination. On the facts of this case Mr Lee was not discriminated against on the basis of his sexuality or political opinion.

It stopped well short of saying any business has the right to refuse a bespoke job and such an interpretation is not close enough to describe current anti discrimination law.

Could you explain what "dissociable discrimination" means? Thanks in advance

A discrimination claim can only be brought on certain protected characteristics such as age sex, sexual orientation etc. Dissociable discrimination is when the discrimination is not directly on one of those characteristics but is on some other ground where's its impact is so extreme that it May as well be on one of those characteristics.

The example the Supreme Court gave was when a swimming pool discriminated on the basis of whether the customer was eligible for state pension or not. Being eligible for state pension is not a protected characteristic per se however the impact was such that it de facto amounted to age and sex discrimination on the basis that only over 60 year old women and only over 65 year old men were being discriminated against.

Originally the courts here held that support for gay marriage was dissociable from a persons sexuality and political beliefs on the basis that realistically the only people who would want a cake with a support gay marriage message would be those of certain sexualities and/or political beliefs.

Cheers

Main Street

Quote from: David McKeown on October 12, 2018, 09:16:43 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 12, 2018, 09:08:36 PM
Would Ashers make a cake with Mr Lee's picture and "Proud to be gay" for anyone?

That's why I think it would be interesting. Realistically it would be a lot harder to suggest that someone who isn't gay would ever request a cake like that. The Supreme Court judgement to me isn't clear whether this example would be dissociable discrimination.
That still falls under  "obliging them to supply a cake iced with a message with which they profoundly disagreed" as a matter of religious conscience.
Profoundly being the key word.
And it also still falls under this peculiar form of blatant cynical entrapment.