Ulster Club SFC 2019

[oakleaflad]

why is senior football so strong in Derry but Intermediate and Junior so poor in comparison with other counties.?

Only Tyrone and Monaghan clubs have won more Ulster Intermediate titles than Derry clubs so I don't think we're overly poor at that level either. More a case of Tyrone and Monaghan being strong. A Derry club, Craigbane, were the first club to win Ulster Intermediate twice. Cookstown and Pomeroy have since followed.

We have been poor at Junior level, though Limavady and Faughanvale were beaten finalists in recent years. Our Junior winners have been between the 33rd-40th ranked club in the county and the standard has been poor enough to be honest. A number of these clubs would have found it hard to field teams in recent years. From next year on there has been a slight rejig to, I think, the bottom 9 or 10 teams competing in Junior champion so hopefully we'll improve at that level.

[marty34]

Not senior obviously, but I checked out the winners in the St. Paul's Minour Tournament in Belfast.
At the top:
Derry - 16 winners
Tyrone - 4 winners
Antrim - 3 winners
Armagh - 3 winners
Donegal - 3 winners
Fermanagh - 2 winners
Cavan - 1 winner
Monaghan - 1 winner

Tyrone have serious underage talent but getting into Ulster club, whatever age group, they, for whatever reason, don't do it.

Tyrone is a meritocracy, there is no super club, it's highly competitive, we have by far the best success rate in junior and intermediate in the past decade and you have a case like Trillick a few years back who lost an intermediate final and won the senior championship the subsequent season and narrowly lost out to Scotstown in Ulster.

There are 6 or 7 senior clubs who would go into the Ulster Championship and be more than capable of holding their own, I don't think any other county in Ulster would be capable of that now.

I think the top 6 or 7 in Derry are stronger than the top 6 or 7 in Tyrone.

Not a chance

Any logic to go with that? Derry have been much more successful in any possible Ulster competition. Ulster club championship speaks for itself. Even the pre-season Ulster league has been won by Derry teams more than any other county. Tyrone folk seem to think their club sides are much stronger at senior level than they are.

Tyrone people are delusional about the quality of their championship - when they go into Ulster, they are found out. It's competitive as they are 4 or 5 teams at the same level but that's different re: quality of team.

5 or 6 different teams have won Cavan championship this past 10 years -doesn't mean they're brill as when in Ulster club championship, they don't succeed.

My take on it is Tyrone people are more county based - they love the county football.

[Aaron Boone]

Not senior obviously, but I checked out the winners in the St. Paul's Minour Tournament in Belfast.
At the top:
Derry - 16 winners
Tyrone - 4 winners
Antrim - 3 winners
Armagh - 3 winners
Donegal - 3 winners
Fermanagh - 2 winners
Cavan - 1 winner
Monaghan - 1 winner

Tyrone have serious underage talent but getting into Ulster club, whatever age group, they, for whatever reason, don't do it.

Tyrone is a meritocracy, there is no super club, it's highly competitive, we have by far the best success rate in junior and intermediate in the past decade and you have a case like Trillick a few years back who lost an intermediate final and won the senior championship the subsequent season and narrowly lost out to Scotstown in Ulster.

There are 6 or 7 senior clubs who would go into the Ulster Championship and be more than capable of holding their own, I don't think any other county in Ulster would be capable of that now.

I think the top 6 or 7 in Derry are stronger than the top 6 or 7 in Tyrone.

Not a chance

Any logic to go with that? Derry have been much more successful in any possible Ulster competition. Ulster club championship speaks for itself. Even the pre-season Ulster league has been won by Derry teams more than any other county. Tyrone folk seem to think their club sides are much stronger at senior level than they are.

Tyrone people are delusional about the quality of their championship - when they go into Ulster, they are found out. It's competitive as they are 4 or 5 teams at the same level but that's different re: quality of team.

5 or 6 different teams have won Cavan championship this past 10 years -doesn't mean they're brill as when in Ulster club championship, they don't succeed.

My take on it is Tyrone people are more county based - they love the county football.

The other 8 counties should play off the club competition as normal. The 'winners' then play the Tyrone county champions in a one-off final to determine the true Ulster club champion. Only way to sort it.

[Pearse Blue]

Not senior obviously, but I checked out the winners in the St. Paul's Minour Tournament in Belfast.
At the top:
Derry - 16 winners
Tyrone - 4 winners
Antrim - 3 winners
Armagh - 3 winners
Donegal - 3 winners
Fermanagh - 2 winners
Cavan - 1 winner
Monaghan - 1 winner

Tyrone have serious underage talent but getting into Ulster club, whatever age group, they, for whatever reason, don't do it.

Tyrone is a meritocracy, there is no super club, it's highly competitive, we have by far the best success rate in junior and intermediate in the past decade and you have a case like Trillick a few years back who lost an intermediate final and won the senior championship the subsequent season and narrowly lost out to Scotstown in Ulster.

There are 6 or 7 senior clubs who would go into the Ulster Championship and be more than capable of holding their own, I don't think any other county in Ulster would be capable of that now.

I think the top 6 or 7 in Derry are stronger than the top 6 or 7 in Tyrone.

Not a chance

Any logic to go with that? Derry have been much more successful in any possible Ulster competition. Ulster club championship speaks for itself. Even the pre-season Ulster league has been won by Derry teams more than any other county. Tyrone folk seem to think their club sides are much stronger at senior level than they are.

Tyrone people are delusional about the quality of their championship - when they go into Ulster, they are found out. It's competitive as they are 4 or 5 teams at the same level but that's different re: quality of team.

5 or 6 different teams have won Cavan championship this past 10 years -doesn't mean they're brill as when in Ulster club championship, they don't succeed.

My take on it is Tyrone people are more county based - they love the county football.

Thats wrong too, a lot of people in Tyrone don't follow the county and would rather the club games continued rather than a stop for county games

[Estimator]

Angelo's argument you need to be dominant in your own county doesn't really work when looking at the Derry sides that have won Ulster going back 30 years.

Lavey won a county title in 1988, their first since 1980, they then won the county title in 1990 and went on to win the All-Ireland. They won Ulster again in 1992.

Bellaghy won the county title in 1994, their first appearance in the county final since 1986, they won Ulster and made it to the AI final.

Dungiven were beat in the county final in 1996, first victory since 1991, then followed that up with victory in 1997 and won the Ulster title.

Ballinderry lost the 1999 and 2000 county finals, they finally won in 2001 and went on to win the All-Ireland.

An Lub won their first county title in 60odd years in 2003 and went on to win Ulster

Slaughtneil won their first county title in 10yrs in 2014, they lost a couple of finals previous to that.  It took a highly disputed goal to clinch victory in that county final.  They went on to win Ulster, and get to the AI final.

None of those clubs were the dominant clubs when they won the County Title, they were just very good teams that made the most of their opportunity when they arrived on the Ulster Club scene.

On the flip side of that Mayobridge and Kilcoo have been dominant clubs in Down, at times, over the last 25yrs, but between them they didn't take home the Ulster title.

[imtommygunn]

I think we are confusing competitiveness with quality.  Tyrone may have a lot of teams on the same level, making their championship the most competitive, but clearly they are not of the quality of other sides in Ulster.

Exactly this. This is the first place where Angelo's argument falls down. (it falls down everywhere else but this is the key place it falls down )

[marty34]

why is senior football so strong in Derry but Intermediate and Junior so poor in comparison with other counties.?

South Derry is where it's at in terms of senior club football in Derry - ultra competitive, even at underage.

Aprt from Eogan Rua and Dungiven (I think they've fallen back a good bit recently at senior level), south derry has Magherafelt, Glen, Slaughtneil, Lavey, Loup, Ballinderry etc.etc. 

Add, with the underage work of these clubs, the success of St. Pat's Maghera and St. Mary's Magherafelt as well as St. Piux in Magherafelt.

Intermediate and junior not as strong in Derry - Glack got badly beaten at week-end.  Not sure how Foreglen will go in intermediate.  A lot of north derry/Derry City based clubs in these 2 championships. An important thing for these clubs is to get promoted in their league and develop that way - build up at underage and develop.

Tradition matters and is hard to beat.

[Milltown Row2]

Oh that was a lovely few minutes reading! Arguing that because they've the best county championship they then can't win Ulster because the club can't get a run at it, as the same team can't retain their club championship?

Either you're good enough to win another 3/4 games or you're not! Worst record in Ulster club. That's the basics of it

You're talking about individual clubs. It's like saying Leinster football or Munster football are the strongest footballing provinces because of Dublin and Kerry when the reality is that Ulster is the strongest and Connacht is probably next up.

The likes of Cross, Slaughtneil, Scotstown and Kilcoo have made fairly handy work of their county championships in recent years, they have been able to reserve their energy and have their focus set on Ulster, they have been able to build up experience of the Ulster club championship along the way. That certainly gives them a big advantage.

Trilick, judging by their championship results, had one close game, one point win over Coalisland being their toughest game. Any extra time or replay's? And based on your assessment (which is laughable) Derrygonelly are odds on favourites to beat any Tyrone team due to the fact they've won 5 in a row and having greater experience in Ulster!?

I didn't say that.

I said Derrygonelly are much more experienced than Trillick at this level and that is certainly one advantage they will have over them.

Trillick also had a very tough game against Clonoe and an injury time goal put a bit of gloss on what was a very close quarter final.

They played 4 games beat Clonoe 2-11 1-09, very close, even with a late goal ffs! 4 games?

Look what is the point of even entering the Ulster club? If any manager is worth his salt he'll be preparing a team for every eventuality

A goal in the 8th minute of injury time might distort the picture on the Clonoe game which was a very tight affair throughout. They played four knockout games, two were very close, even matches, one was a hammering and the other was fairly comfortable. Trillick beat Clonoe by more than they beat Errigal but it's certainly fair to say Clonoe asked much more questions of them.

The first priority of a manager of a Tyrone club is the county championship, if you start looking beyond that before you have accomplished it then you can forget about Ulster. Tyrone clubs don't have the luxury of soft county titles, Carrickmore are the last club in Tyrone to defend a championship and that's back in 2005.

By you're reasoning the Dublin club championship is more difficult to retain?

So, their record at All Ireland club level would be shit due to the difficulty of winning The Dub championship ?

Ffs my clubs won more Ulster club titles that Tyrone!

Incorrect fella, as Leinster is a cake walk then, whereas Ulster isnt. Each one of you as wrong as the next.

Since 2000, ten Dublin teams have won through to Lenister titles, the other nine obviously from the other counties outside of Dublin. Not exactly a walk in

Five of those finals there was 1 score seperating the Dublin winners

[imtommygunn]

Some of my fellow countymen (and a few others) it seems either keep falling into the trap that arguably the most competitive championship = the championship with the highest quality teams, or are suffering from delusion.

The Ulster intercounty SFC during the 80's was the most competitive in Ireland, but whoever won it struggled at the All-Ireland stage. Only facing the Connacht champions in the semi final gave the Ulster winners any real hope of making it to the final.

In terms of the roll of honour in Tyrone in the last decade & a half, there is a wide variety of teams that have won the O'Neill Cup (Tyrone SFC cup) but no team has been able to retain the trophy since Carrickmore did so in 2005. In this years' county SFC, prior to the first game there was around 6-8 teams that you could say had a reasonable chance of claiming honours in the end, Trillick being one of them. However, the last of these winners that came close to provincial success was Omagh when they were defeated by Slaughtneil in the final.

Is it an advantage to be a "big fish in a small pond" thus being regular participants in the Ulster club? I'd say usually it does - but it doesn't always be, Cavan Gaels were dominating Cavan not too long ago but struggled to translate their county dominance in Ulster.

The fact is that Tyrone's representatives in the Ulster Club SFC have in general not been good enough when it has come to the crunch, only Errigal Ciaran have proven themselves at that level. No amount of sugar coating, some threadbare excuses or ridiculous suggestions that winning the Tyrone SFC is harder than the Ulster Club SFC can argue with historical competition results.

Having said that, I do think Trillick have a half decent shot this year. Never a bunch to lack self-confidence, they'll look forward to playing Derrygonnelly. Given how many from Trillick work or be educated in Enniskillen, both sides will know quite a few players in opposition and Trillick will get a rare chance to play a Fermanagh club in a competitive match. Brewster Park should be buzzing on Sunday week.

Tyrone clubs generally compete fairly well regardless of who goes forward, they are very rarely given a big beating and usually pick up a few wins along the way. The fact is Tyrone have probably 5 or 6 clubs who can come out of the county championship and give a good account of themselves along the way, I don't think another county in Ulster can say the same. I think when you are regularly winning your county title, then you are looking beyond that and are tailoring your plans for a tilt at Ulster.

None of the above excuses Tyrone's poor record in the Ulster Club SFC. Giving "a good account of themselves" doesn't end up showing on the roll of honour for the competition over the past 50 years. Winning games is what matters.

Worth mentioning that Errigal Ciaran won their first Ulster club title (and any for a Tyrone club) in 1993 having won their first ever county title. Indeed when talking about no team retaining the county title since 2005, between 1993 and 2005, Errigal Ciaran and Carrickmore won 11 of the 13 county championships between them (Ardboe won in 98 and Killyclogher in 2003) and while Errigal picked up another provincial title in 2002, Carrickmore failed to capitalise much once they went outside the county.

The Tyrone SFC is indeed a very competitive competition, probably one of the most in Ulster if not all of Ireland. Let alone simply retaining the championship, the last time a three-in-a-row was achieved was 40 years ago and no club has done four-in-a-row or better. But you can have a very competitive Intermediate Reserve or Junior Reserve championship some years in Tyrone but that doesn't mean that the overall standard in those competitions is very high.

The records in the competition speaks for itself. There is no point in claiming that Tyrone teams and clubs are somehow naturally better, but when there is some evidence to the contrary, all sorts of contortions for excuses are made.

Exactly - on the whole Tyrone are the best in Ulster but their club teams don't reflect that.

[t_mac]

Not senior obviously, but I checked out the winners in the St. Paul's Minour Tournament in Belfast.
At the top:
Derry - 16 winners
Tyrone - 4 winners
Antrim - 3 winners
Armagh - 3 winners
Donegal - 3 winners
Fermanagh - 2 winners
Cavan - 1 winner
Monaghan - 1 winner

Tyrone have serious underage talent but getting into Ulster club, whatever age group, they, for whatever reason, don't do it.

Tyrone is a meritocracy, there is no super club, it's highly competitive, we have by far the best success rate in junior and intermediate in the past decade and you have a case like Trillick a few years back who lost an intermediate final and won the senior championship the subsequent season and narrowly lost out to Scotstown in Ulster.

There are 6 or 7 senior clubs who would go into the Ulster Championship and be more than capable of holding their own, I don't think any other county in Ulster would be capable of that now.

I think the top 6 or 7 in Derry are stronger than the top 6 or 7 in Tyrone.

Not a chance

Any logic to go with that? Derry have been much more successful in any possible Ulster competition. Ulster club championship speaks for itself. Even the pre-season Ulster league has been won by Derry teams more than any other county. Tyrone folk seem to think their club sides are much stronger at senior level than they are.

Tyrone people are delusional about the quality of their championship - when they go into Ulster, they are found out. It's competitive as they are 4 or 5 teams at the same level but that's different re: quality of team.

5 or 6 different teams have won Cavan championship this past 10 years -doesn't mean they're brill as when in Ulster club championship, they don't succeed.

My take on it is Tyrone people are more county based - they love the county football.

Thats wrong too, a lot of people in Tyrone don't follow the county and would rather the club games continued rather than a stop for county games

Also, Tyrone always go further than the likes of Derry, Armagh, Cavan, Down in the county scene every year. After the likes of Derry etc are knocked out early they can go back to there clubs a lot earlier and train with them, and also then nothing is holding the club championship back. Unlike in Tyrone they play to near enough the last 4 or final get beat, and a week later the club championship begins.

Is Cross an exception to your rather loose rule?

[general_lee]

Tyrone undoubtedly has the best club football in Ulster across Senior, Inter and Junior. Highly competitive across all three grades. I'd much prefer a club scene  like Tyrone than what we currently have in Armagh - a senior championship dominated by one club with no other club that has the balls to take them on, an intermediate championship that is at best mediocre standard and a junior championship where half the teams in it wouldn't win a match against most clubs reserve teams let alone a division 2 Donegal club on the Ulster stage. I'd go out on a limb here and say Armagh probably has the worst championship in Ulster in terms of set up, standard, competitiveness, and excitement. I'd say most people in Armagh would agree

[Pearse Blue]

Tyrone undoubtedly has the best club football in Ulster across Senior, Inter and Junior. Highly competitive across all three grades. I'd much prefer a club scene  like Tyrone than what we currently have in Armagh - a senior championship dominated by one club with no other club that has the balls to take them on, an intermediate championship that is at best mediocre standard and a junior championship where half the teams in it wouldn't win a match against most clubs reserve teams let alone a division 2 Donegal club on the Ulster stage. I'd go out on a limb here and say Armagh probably has the worst championship in Ulster in terms of set up, standard, competitiveness, and excitement. I'd say most people in Armagh would agree

Really theres only one team in the senior championship until they have an odd hick up and they are straight back the following year

[Walter Cronc]

Tyrone undoubtedly has the best club football in Ulster across Senior, Inter and Junior. Highly competitive across all three grades. I'd much prefer a club scene  like Tyrone than what we currently have in Armagh - a senior championship dominated by one club with no other club that has the balls to take them on, an intermediate championship that is at best mediocre standard and a junior championship where half the teams in it wouldn't win a match against most clubs reserve teams let alone a division 2 Donegal club on the Ulster stage. I'd go out on a limb here and say Armagh probably has the worst championship in Ulster in terms of set up, standard, competitiveness, and excitement. I'd say most people in Armagh would agree

Why do other side's fear Cross so much? Never got my head around it. I remember once a Cullyhana man telling me he was going to Croker to support Cross. Ye wouldn't get that in Derry 😅

[marty34]

Another genuine question for Angelo, do you think if Cross, Slaughtneil, Scotstown or Kilcoo were in the Tyrone championship they would be capable of winning it consecutively?

Can we end this waffle that the Tyrone club championship is quality and their teams are 'wrecked'  after playing in that, that they can't compete in Ulster?

Excuses!  Pure nonsense.

They get a 2 week break, at least, after they finish their county campaign so I don't know how they are burnt out.  They only play football - no hurling, so it's pure waffle.

Not good enough as their record in Ulster senior club states - end of story.

Correct, some teams that come out of Tyrone aren't good enough. This is because the best team doesn't win it every year like what happens in every other county

Excellent point, thats the truth. For a prime example look at this years winners.

What - the best team doesn't win the championship???

[BennyCake]

Tyrone undoubtedly has the best club football in Ulster across Senior, Inter and Junior. Highly competitive across all three grades. I'd much prefer a club scene  like Tyrone than what we currently have in Armagh - a senior championship dominated by one club with no other club that has the balls to take them on, an intermediate championship that is at best mediocre standard and a junior championship where half the teams in it wouldn't win a match against most clubs reserve teams let alone a division 2 Donegal club on the Ulster stage. I'd go out on a limb here and say Armagh probably has the worst championship in Ulster in terms of set up, standard, competitiveness, and excitement. I'd say most people in Armagh would agree

A bit disrespectful there. Cullyhanna did, and Maghery did twice, in recent years.