The IRISH RUGBY thread

[Main Street]

The only memory I have of Trevor playing for Ireland was that WC game against Australia at Lansdowne rd when one Aussie held him while another rained punches against his face and afair, the ref only sin binned Trevor.

[Main Street]

An interesting tribute to OGara  by an out and critic of his,  Stephen Jones,  when O'Gara won his 90th cap onMarch 2009
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article5803958.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1

'for a whole chunk of his career I did not rate Ronan O'Gara.
My low rating was based on what I saw as an unambitious young player who lay as deep as Davy Jones's locker and who often seemed to be happy to kick just enough penalty goals to ensure that the score for Munster or Ireland was one point more than the opposition. I have seen games where his defence was poor, where he could have expanded and did not, or failed to kill off a game and then found his team beaten. I also felt that when he did try to run the ball he looked thoroughly uncomfortable.
That was then. These days I find him a masterly operator. There is no shortage of outstanding fly halves around but I would take him on the Lions tour. His range of kicks is vast and, in a sense, old-fashioned. So few fly halves these days can drop kicks on the head of a shaky defender to land at the same time as the chasers, even long punting is a lost art that he retains. He is also a man you would back for that knee-knocking late place kick to win. Last season against Wasps at Thomond Park it was as if he had the match on a length of string, so uncanny was his anticipation.

He is also playing far flatter and I recall with delight the way he orchestrated a display of attacking by the Irish backs against Australia two seasons ago that has rarely been equalled. He still makes errors but his experience and well of self-belief seem to shrug them off where once they haunted him.

[Bord na Mona man]

Just going back to Saturday. This time last year Ireland got an undeserved draw against Australia after an equally shaky performance and there was little complaint. Two years ago they were easily beaten by New Zealand. This is also the first serious outing for months, so its too early to judge.

Had Ireland a fit O'Connell (or Cullen) and Flannery, the line out would probably have held up. They might even have put pressure on the South African line out.

I think Kidney is being ambitious with the style of play. There is a lot more emphasis on running the ball and moving it through the hands. Resulting in an increase in the amount of handling errors. Not helped by the weather conditions of course.

Ireland won a Grand Slam in 2009 by being the team that kicked more than anyone else. They forced tries by patiently grinding their way to the line.

In 2010 Kidney has changed tack a little. He probably lost the Triple Crown against Scotland last spring by having the team attempting to run in tries at every opportunity. Instead of engaging in the preliminaries of pack warfare and territorial kicking.

Whether this a coach naively wanting to win beautifully, or a wise head who reckons that Ireland need to evolve their style to actually seriously put it up to the Southern Hemisphere teams is another matter.
At the moment, Ireland wouldn't be a match for the French or the Welsh when it comes to running the ball though.

On the team selection. I'd give Stringer another shot at the big time. He may be a bit one-dimensional, but his snappy pass is definitely a huge asset at the moment.

I think Darcy at 12 doesn't have the vision and hands to bring other players into the game. While Ryle Nugent may love his dancing feet, he tends to dance into opponents and go to ground.
His best ever season for Ireland was in 2004 (world player of the year nominee, 6 nations player of the tournament) when he was 13 and O'Driscoll was at 12 feeding him ball and creating space for him.
Ireland could switch back to this, but perhaps it is time to try Sexton at 12. He can distribute better than D'arcy and may benefit from not having the pressure of making the tactical calls and play making at 10.

[Joxer]

Ireland head coach Delcan Kidney has made 10 personnel changes and one positional change to his team to face Samoa in the Guinness Series this Saturday.


Devin Toner will win his first cap for Ireland in the second row this Saturday, as one of the 11 changes to the starting team from the side that played against South Africa.


Toner will be partnered by the experienced Donncha O'Callaghan in the engine room and they will be supporting a new front row of Tom Court, Sean Cronin and John Hayes, who are all selected to start.


Denis Leamy and Sean O'Brien are called into the backrow with Jamie Heaslip retaining the number 8 position. Stephen Ferris and David Wallace make way in the backrow.


Luke Fitzgerald is the one positional switch in the team, he moves from wing to full back, with Andrew Trimble coming into the vacant left-wing position.


Paddy Wallace comes into the team at inside centre to partner captain Brian O'Driscoll, with Gordon D'Arcy dropping out of the starting XV.


Ronan O'Gara and Peter Stringer come into the side as the new half-back combination following their excellent substitute appearances against South Africa.


Declan Kidney will announce the replacements later this week.

Ireland team to play Samoa in the Guinness Series 2010, Aviva Stadium, 13 November, kick-off 14:30.


15 Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster)
14 Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 Brian O'Driscoll (captain, UCD/Leinster)
12 Paddy Wallace (Ballymena/Ulster)
11 Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
9 Peter Stringer (Shannon/Munster)
1 Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
2 Sean Cronin (Buccaneers/Connacht)
3 John Hayes (Bruff/Munster)
4 Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
6 Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster)
7 Sean O'Brien (St.Mary's College/Leinster)
8 Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)


Replacements:
To be confirmed later in the week.

[lynchbhoy]

almost the team i'd like to see play with only Earls on somewhere in the back line at the expense of Wallace and Ferris on instead of leamy.
OK Toner isnt up to it yet, but I am delighted for him to win his first cap.

[INDIANA]

Just going back to Saturday. This time last year Ireland got an undeserved draw against Australia after an equally shaky performance and there was little complaint. Two years ago they were easily beaten by New Zealand. This is also the first serious outing for months, so its too early to judge.

Had Ireland a fit O'Connell (or Cullen) and Flannery, the line out would probably have held up. They might even have put pressure on the South African line out.

I think Kidney is being ambitious with the style of play. There is a lot more emphasis on running the ball and moving it through the hands. Resulting in an increase in the amount of handling errors. Not helped by the weather conditions of course.

Ireland won a Grand Slam in 2009 by being the team that kicked more than anyone else. They forced tries by patiently grinding their way to the line.

In 2010 Kidney has changed tack a little. He probably lost the Triple Crown against Scotland last spring by having the team attempting to run in tries at every opportunity. Instead of engaging in the preliminaries of pack warfare and territorial kicking.

Whether this a coach naively wanting to win beautifully, or a wise head who reckons that Ireland need to evolve their style to actually seriously put it up to the Southern Hemisphere teams is another matter.
At the moment, Ireland wouldn't be a match for the French or the Welsh when it comes to running the ball though.

On the team selection. I'd give Stringer another shot at the big time. He may be a bit one-dimensional, but his snappy pass is definitely a huge asset at the moment.

I think Darcy at 12 doesn't have the vision and hands to bring other players into the game. While Ryle Nugent may love his dancing feet, he tends to dance into opponents and go to ground.
His best ever season for Ireland was in 2004 (world player of the year nominee, 6 nations player of the tournament) when he was 13 and O'Driscoll was at 12 feeding him ball and creating space for him.
Ireland could switch back to this, but perhaps it is time to try Sexton at 12. He can distribute better than D'arcy and may benefit from not having the pressure of making the tactical calls and play making at 10.

1- Ireland are trying to play a more ambitous style of rugby with the wrong tactics. There is no counter attacking form the back 3. Anyone who thinks that the full back running the ball back tucked under one arm into contact is counter attacking can never have played the game. Kearney did this on 6 occasions on Saturday.

2- Ireland are trying to play ambitious rugby with the wrong personnel. thats a failure of management. I dont want to hear about they did in the past as a coaches. We're talking about the here and now. And the tactics and selection were miles off last week.

3- This is not too soon to judge. That was crap last Saturday. A resume. We were playing against a South African team at loggerhards with the coach, knackered after a long season and who never moved the ball beyond 12. And we still couldnt win.

4- The facts are we have little in the way of strength in depth and we simply cant match the Southern Hemisphere. The question this year wil we beat Scotland and Wales? I cant see us beating England and France. England are 2 centres short of a bloody good team.

[tyroneboi]

1- Ireland are trying to play a more ambitous style of rugby with the wrong tactics. There is no counter attacking form the back 3. Anyone who thinks that the full back running the ball back tucked under one arm into contact is counter attacking can never have played the game. Kearney did this on 6 occasions on Saturday.

2- Ireland are trying to play ambitious rugby with the wrong personnel. thats a failure of management. I dont want to hear about they did in the past as a coaches. We're talking about the here and now. And the tactics and selection were miles off last week.

3- This is not too soon to judge. That was crap last Saturday. A resume. We were playing against a South African team at loggerhards with the coach, knackered after a long season and who never moved the ball beyond 12. And we still couldnt win.

4- The facts are we have little in the way of strength in depth and we simply cant match the Southern Hemisphere. The question this year wil we beat Scotland and Wales? I cant see us beating England and France. England are 2 centres short of a bloody good team.

I would agree with what your saying there. Kearney was a fantastic full back under the high ball when teams kicked the leather out of the ball but that isnt happening anymore. I think Fitz can offer more of a threat from a counter attacking perspective at full back than Kearney. I think a centre partnership of BOD at 12 and Bowe at 13 could be worth looking at maybe against Argentina but i doubt it will happen. Strength in depth is a major problem as demonstrated with Mick O'Driscoll coming in for O'Connell last week. I said in a previous post during the summer internationals if Mick O'Driscoll is our 3rd choice lock then we are in serious bother. I often think (and its more than likely pure rubbish) that young kids playing now dont see the front 5 positions being as glamorous as the 6-15 positions and thats part of the problem. They would rather be a Heaslip or a BOD than a John Hayes.

You are right in what you are saying about England being a few players short of being a good team. Centres as you say is a problem for them (Delon Armitage at 13 could be awesome) but i still dont think they have their back row balance right just yet. With a more experienced coach than Johnston they could be contenders for the RWC next year.

[INDIANA]

1- Ireland are trying to play a more ambitous style of rugby with the wrong tactics. There is no counter attacking form the back 3. Anyone who thinks that the full back running the ball back tucked under one arm into contact is counter attacking can never have played the game. Kearney did this on 6 occasions on Saturday.

2- Ireland are trying to play ambitious rugby with the wrong personnel. thats a failure of management. I dont want to hear about they did in the past as a coaches. We're talking about the here and now. And the tactics and selection were miles off last week.

3- This is not too soon to judge. That was crap last Saturday. A resume. We were playing against a South African team at loggerhards with the coach, knackered after a long season and who never moved the ball beyond 12. And we still couldnt win.

4- The facts are we have little in the way of strength in depth and we simply cant match the Southern Hemisphere. The question this year wil we beat Scotland and Wales? I cant see us beating England and France. England are 2 centres short of a bloody good team.

I would agree with what your saying there. Kearney was a fantastic full back under the high ball when teams kicked the leather out of the ball but that isnt happening anymore. I think Fitz can offer more of a threat from a counter attacking perspective at full back than Kearney. I think a centre partnership of BOD at 12 and Bowe at 13 could be worth looking at maybe against Argentina but i doubt it will happen. Strength in depth is a major problem as demonstrated with Mick O'Driscoll coming in for O'Connell last week. I said in a previous post during the summer internationals if Mick O'Driscoll is our 3rd choice lock then we are in serious bother. I often think (and its more than likely pure rubbish) that young kids playing now dont see the front 5 positions being as glamorous as the 6-15 positions and thats part of the problem. They would rather be a Heaslip or a BOD than a John Hayes.

You are right in what you are saying about England being a few players short of being a good team. Centres as you say is a problem for them (Delon Armitage at 13 could be awesome) but i still dont think they have their back row balance right just yet. With a more experienced coach than Johnston they could be contenders for the RWC next year.

With johnson and andrews behind the scenes they have no chance I agree. With the right coaching ticket they would be very formidable. In my opinion.

Buckley has to start delivering or else start using younger TH's. Ross has to play at some point to see. What harm? He's in great form

I like the team for Saturday. The opposition are poor but at least Kidney has acknowledged his errors and picked on form this week.

[Hound]

Strength in depth is a major problem as demonstrated with Mick O'Driscoll coming in for O'Connell last week. I said in a previous post during the summer internationals if Mick O'Driscoll is our 3rd choice lock then we are in serious bother.

Not to mentioned that the hugely overrated O'Callaghan is our 2nd choice! He's been getting away with inept performances for years, and its always excused by his supposed great partnership with POC or his supposed great unseen work. When is he ever a man of the match contender? I seriously can't remember him ever even been mentioned as a contender in any Irish or Munster match.

I see Toner interviewed in the Irish Times today saying he'll do the calling for the lineout on Saturday because he has more experience at it than O'Callaghan. This is Toner's first international cap and he's started only 4 or 5 Heineken Cup games. O'Callaghan has 64 Irish caps and probably around 100 Munster caps. I know there's more to lock play than just winning your lineouts but still its a telling indication of how much O'Callaghan has been carried over the years.

[trileacman]

Strength in depth is a major problem as demonstrated with Mick O'Driscoll coming in for O'Connell last week. I said in a previous post during the summer internationals if Mick O'Driscoll is our 3rd choice lock then we are in serious bother.

Not to mentioned that the hugely overrated O'Callaghan is our 2nd choice! He's been getting away with inept performances for years, and its always excused by his supposed great partnership with POC or his supposed great unseen work. When is he ever a man of the match contender? I seriously can't remember him ever even been mentioned as a contender in any Irish or Munster match.

I see Toner interviewed in the Irish Times today saying he'll do the calling for the lineout on Saturday because he has more experience at it than O'Callaghan. This is Toner's first international cap and he's started only 4 or 5 Heineken Cup games. O'Callaghan has 64 Irish caps and probably around 100 Munster caps. I know there's more to lock play than just winning your lineouts but still its a telling indication of how much O'Callaghan has been carried over the years.

I can recall one munster match (HC) of real importance when he was simply outstanding in the absence of POC. MOTM that day as far as I can recall. Can't remember the match or the opposition though.

[Capt Pat]

In terms of the first choice Ireland team does anyone else agree that Ireland need Keith Earls on the pitch? Preferably at outside centre with O'Driscoll moving to inside centre or have them both play left and right centre. The Darcy and O'Driscoll partnership at this stage is beginning to slow down and Earls can make breaks for fun.

[muppet]

Strength in depth is a major problem as demonstrated with Mick O'Driscoll coming in for O'Connell last week. I said in a previous post during the summer internationals if Mick O'Driscoll is our 3rd choice lock then we are in serious bother.

Not to mentioned that the hugely overrated O'Callaghan is our 2nd choice! He's been getting away with inept performances for years, and its always excused by his supposed great partnership with POC or his supposed great unseen work. When is he ever a man of the match contender? I seriously can't remember him ever even been mentioned as a contender in any Irish or Munster match.

I see Toner interviewed in the Irish Times today saying he'll do the calling for the lineout on Saturday because he has more experience at it than O'Callaghan. This is Toner's first international cap and he's started only 4 or 5 Heineken Cup games. O'Callaghan has 64 Irish caps and probably around 100 Munster caps. I know there's more to lock play than just winning your lineouts but still its a telling indication of how much O'Callaghan has been carried over the years.

Think you are being very harsh on DOC. He is involved in every ruck, maul, scrap and battle in any match I watch. With O'Connell, Heaslip and other exotic options at the glamorous end of the line-out he is rarely used for Ireland or Munster. But please point to a front of the line lock that massacres him on a regular basis.

[trileacman]

Missed this match. How'd it go?? Not good by all accounts.

[Capt Pat]

Almost a carbon copy of last weeks game. We conceded penalties for dropping our own scrum in the first half. Rte missed the second Irish try. Missed a good game between South Africa and Wales to watch it.

We still won and only lost by a couple of points last week, but we need to improve a lot to avoid being destryed by the All Blacks.

[tyroneboi]

Almost a carbon copy of last weeks game. We conceded penalties for dropping our own scrum in the first half. Rte missed the second Irish try. Missed a good game between South Africa and Wales to watch it.

We still won and only lost by a couple of points last week, but we need to improve a lot to avoid being destryed by the All Blacks.

Fearing the worst for next weekend. They looked in 2nd or 3rd gear against the Scots and still won 49-3. If the ABs keep this form up then noone will get near them next year at the RWC. But suppose thats always been their problem in that they always play very well between world cups and not when it matter most.