The IRISH RUGBY thread

Started by Donnellys Hollow, October 27, 2009, 05:26:16 PM

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Main Street

What has changed in the rules or the interpretation of the rules that now favour keeping the ball, over what we saw last year with lumping the ball regularly into the opposition half?

Should there not be hearty congratulation to O'Gara, not just for his performance as replacement yesterday but also for reaching the milestone of 100 caps?  And with many top class performances littered throughout those 100 caps.

CiKe

Things do need to be jigged in the backline. I agree that the new rules suit Stringer perfectly, but only if we are going to have the backs to capitalise on it. Agree with Indiana about Kearney (seem to recall you banging on about this back during the Lions tour as well). He looks great under a high ball and has a thumping boot, but doesn't offer remotely near the running threat of the best full backs. If you aren't to play Fitzgerald there then he is the best we have and unfortunately I think we need Fitzgerald in the centre.

For me should be:

9 Stringer
10 Sexton
11 Bowe
12 Fitzgerald
13 O'Driscoll
14 Earls
15 Kearney

If we had another wing I'd like to see BOD moved inside to 12 with Earls outside him and Fitzgerald at full back, but I don't think we do. Whatever way you look at things, Kidney needs to shake things up a bit, as they are very stale.

Donnellys Hollow

I can't understand why Geordan Murphy was discarded. He's got a raw deal all of his career from various international managements. Fionn Carr should also have been looked at especially when you consider that Horgan and Gavin Duffy were included in the initial squad.

How bad is Felix Jones' injury? Looked like he was going to make the Munster 15 shirt his own in the early weeks of the season.
There's Seán Brady going in, what dya think Seán?

INDIANA

Quote from: CiKe on November 07, 2010, 01:17:44 PM
Things do need to be jigged in the backline. I agree that the new rules suit Stringer perfectly, but only if we are going to have the backs to capitalise on it. Agree with Indiana about Kearney (seem to recall you banging on about this back during the Lions tour as well). He looks great under a high ball and has a thumping boot, but doesn't offer remotely near the running threat of the best full backs. If you aren't to play Fitzgerald there then he is the best we have and unfortunately I think we need Fitzgerald in the centre.

For me should be:

9 Stringer
10 Sexton
11 Bowe
12 Fitzgerald
13 O'Driscoll
14 Earls
15 Kearney

If we had another wing I'd like to see BOD moved inside to 12 with Earls outside him and Fitzgerald at full back, but I don't think we do. Whatever way you look at things, Kidney needs to shake things up a bit, as they are very stale.

I did say that about Kearney and was shot down. He could have been world class in my view but never developed certain aspects of his game.
Namely his passing off his left hand and his counter attacking. Defenisvely very suspect. Murphy got pilloried for missing a few tackles yet Kearney misses a lot more and gets away with it.
Unfortunately he's more famous on the celebrity pages now due to his looks then his talent as a rugby player. Looks fade, being a great player never does. Pity because its actually too late for him to change his style of play now. He may try to do so but you dont develop counter attacking tendencies at 24.

trileacman

Quote from: Dinny Breen on November 06, 2010, 11:47:04 PM
Seriously anyone blaming Sexton hasn't a clue, the days of a 10 sitting in the pocket and kicking the ball away are long gone...

Ireland were beaten as predicted by a few of the lads here because the front 5 are shite and were beaten up a stick in the set piece and in work rate around the paddock, they lay the platform all Reddan got was horrible slow ball, you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear...

The golden period is dead, we don't have the players to adapt to the new law changes, what you saw today is our short term future....
Sorry but I have to call bullshit on that one.

Sexton has to shoulder some of the blame yesterday. Yes we were destroyed in the set piece but where was the continuity or calm provided by the half-back pairings. When did sexton set the tempo or reply to pressure. Missed the first kick to settle the nerves and contributed little all day. The contrast between himself and Rog was shocking. Thats undeniable. Its now the 3rd time in 1 year ROG has been parachuted in to save a match when Sexton is floundering. When will people learn?

I know what the reply will be now. "We were playing behind a beaten pack, Sexton can't be blamed". The first part is true and hence why i put this match down as a defeat but Ireland were diabolical with Sexton in charge. Also pack dominance is not the be all end all in rugby union. If so Italy would have won every 6 nations since its inception followed closely by England.

And now for all the "end is nigh" shite which is being poured out all-ready. FFS just because you couldn't call it right doesn't mean we are at the end of the road. Firstly ROG must play and Best must be disposed of. Hey presto, we have a out-half and a line-out. Kearny is now just Dempsey mark 2 and D'Arcy is a smaller version of Kevin Maggs. Huge room for improvement in these positions, and between Fitzgerald and Earls lies a certain solution. In what form I'm not so sure. David Wallace was very ineffective the other night as well, We must now seriously consider putting him out to pasture.
Fantasy Rugby World Cup Champion 2011,
Fantasy 6 Nations Champion 2014

CiKe

God I'd forgotten all about Murphy. More of a threat as a runner and a better off loader, is good under the high ball as well (although this is now of decreasing necessity with posession the order of the day). Not amazing defensively sure, but Kearney isn't great in this respect - witness his positioning for Aplon's try yesterday (great line sure, but Kearney sold himself very easily)

trileacman

Quote from: Main Street on November 07, 2010, 12:58:44 PM
What has changed in the rules or the interpretation of the rules that now favour keeping the ball, over what we saw last year with lumping the ball regularly into the opposition half?

Should there not be hearty congratulation to O'Gara, not just for his performance as replacement yesterday but also for reaching the milestone of 100 caps?  And with many top class performances littered throughout those 100 caps.

You forget that ROG is from Munster and this rugby thread belongs to the D4 worshippers.
Secondly ROG did not reach our aspirations of World domination in rugby and so must not be attributed with any praise. i.e he is a scape goat.
Fantasy Rugby World Cup Champion 2011,
Fantasy 6 Nations Champion 2014

thewobbler

O Gara might have done this and done that in his career, but he has been a complete and utter disappointment in each World Cup appearance. If we are building towards a World Cup, it can't be done by giving him an armchair ride there, for history tells you he will disappoint.

muppet

Sexton has 9 caps after yesterday.

It took David Humphreys a lot of tests to become the number one after Elwood.
It took Ronan O'Gara a hell of a lot of tests to become number one after Humphreys.

Sexton doesn't even have the provincial experience those guys had thanks to Contepomi among others. I think given a season or two injury free at Leinster as the main man he will hopefully become an international 10. But I agree that the World Cup might come too soon for him.
MWWSI 2017

Main Street

I don't understand the agenda against certain players who have represented Ireland with distinction, whether it be Robbie Keane or O'Gara.

Isn't 25 a good age for the top fly half in Ireland to lay his claim on the starting team? though Johnny looks about 21. Is it not a very desirable situation for the coach to have Sexton just about ready, with O'Gara chomping at the bit on the sidelines, still able to come on and play his part with guile and accuracy?

INDIANA

Quote from: trileacman on November 07, 2010, 01:38:37 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on November 06, 2010, 11:47:04 PM
Seriously anyone blaming Sexton hasn't a clue, the days of a 10 sitting in the pocket and kicking the ball away are long gone...

Ireland were beaten as predicted by a few of the lads here because the front 5 are shite and were beaten up a stick in the set piece and in work rate around the paddock, they lay the platform all Reddan got was horrible slow ball, you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear...

The golden period is dead, we don't have the players to adapt to the new law changes, what you saw today is our short term future....
Sorry but I have to call bullshit on that one.

Sexton has to shoulder some of the blame yesterday. Yes we were destroyed in the set piece but where was the continuity or calm provided by the half-back pairings. When did sexton set the tempo or reply to pressure. Missed the first kick to settle the nerves and contributed little all day. The contrast between himself and Rog was shocking. Thats undeniable. Its now the 3rd time in 1 year ROG has been parachuted in to save a match when Sexton is floundering. When will people learn?

I know what the reply will be now. "We were playing behind a beaten pack, Sexton can't be blamed". The first part is true and hence why i put this match down as a defeat but Ireland were diabolical with Sexton in charge. Also pack dominance is not the be all end all in rugby union. If so Italy would have won every 6 nations since its inception followed closely by England.

And now for all the "end is nigh" shite which is being poured out all-ready. FFS just because you couldn't call it right doesn't mean we are at the end of the road. Firstly ROG must play and Best must be disposed of. Hey presto, we have a out-half and a line-out. Kearny is now just Dempsey mark 2 and D'Arcy is a smaller version of Kevin Maggs. Huge room for improvement in these positions, and between Fitzgerald and Earls lies a certain solution. In what form I'm not so sure. David Wallace was very ineffective the other night as well, We must now seriously consider putting him out to pasture.

Dan Carter would have struggled playing with Eoin Reddan yesterday.
Fact. Thats a glaring ommision in your analysis. Anyone who has played the game which I can only deduce you havent knows that an outhalf will struggle to play beside a scrum half playing as poorly as Reddan did yesterday.
ROG got to play with Stringer yesterday- another thing missing from the  above

I'd like to see Sexton play with Stringer and then make a judgment call.

The bottom line Ireland have 4 very average scrumhalves. Very average. England have a brilliant young player in Youngs. Oz have Genea, France have Parra, Yachvilli etc. New Zealands young scrum half was excellent yesterday against England. They nearly fell apart yesterday when he was taken off.
We have no-one in that class at9 . End of story. But Stringer can pass the ball. The rest of them cant

trileacman

Quote from: INDIANA on November 07, 2010, 04:44:13 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 07, 2010, 01:38:37 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on November 06, 2010, 11:47:04 PM
Seriously anyone blaming Sexton hasn't a clue, the days of a 10 sitting in the pocket and kicking the ball away are long gone...

The golden period is dead, we don't have the players to adapt to the new law changes, what you saw today is our short term future....
Sorry but I have to call bullshit on that one.
And now for all the "end is nigh" shite which is being poured out all-ready. FFS just because you couldn't call it right doesn't mean we are at the end of the road. Firstly ROG must play and Best must be disposed of. Hey presto, we have a out-half and a line-out. Kearny is now just Dempsey mark 2 and D'Arcy is a smaller version of Kevin Maggs. Huge room for improvement in these positions, and between Fitzgerald and Earls lies a certain solution. In what form I'm not so sure. David Wallace was very ineffective the other night as well, We must now seriously consider putting him out to pasture.

Dan Carter would have struggled playing with Eoin Reddan yesterday.
Fact. Thats a glaring ommision in your analysis. Anyone who has played the game which I can only deduce you havent knows that an outhalf will struggle to play beside a scrum half playing as poorly as Reddan did yesterday.
ROG got to play with Stringer yesterday- another thing missing from the  above.

I'd like to see Sexton play with Stringer and then make a judgment call.

The bottom line Ireland have 4 very average scrumhalves. Very average. England have a brilliant young player in Youngs. Oz have Genea, France have Parra, Yachvilli etc. New Zealands young scrum half was excellent yesterday against England. They nearly fell apart yesterday when he was taken off.
We have no-one in that class at 9. End of story. But Stringer can pass the ball. The rest of them cant
Fair points except for the fact that I have played the game. Secondly my opinion of Sexton is formed not only by yesterday but also by performances when playing with O'Leary.
Secondly you talk about having a "excellent" scrum-half. Scrum-half's cannot be all things to all men. Parra is a passer and kicker, Irish scrum-half's over you something else. O'Leary's a defender, Stringer a passer and Reddan a tester at the fringes (normally). Yachvilli was never an exceptional outhalf and I believe you are letting the point scoring ability of Parra colour your judgement.

You tailor your game as your resources demand. That is what half a SA team did yesterday. Irelands 9s would suffice but the game must be tailored to suit or exploit the strengths. Thats all other nations do. Parra is a relatively poor tackler, see a couple of weeks ago, but france don't rely on him defensively.

Anyway some good news. Seems changes are abound in our problem area. Court did well in the scrum when he came on. But how much of that is attributed to freshness?

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2010/1107/buckleyt_kearneyr_ireland.html
Fantasy Rugby World Cup Champion 2011,
Fantasy 6 Nations Champion 2014

INDIANA

Quote from: trileacman on November 07, 2010, 05:32:40 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on November 07, 2010, 04:44:13 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 07, 2010, 01:38:37 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on November 06, 2010, 11:47:04 PM
Seriously anyone blaming Sexton hasn't a clue, the days of a 10 sitting in the pocket and kicking the ball away are long gone...

The golden period is dead, we don't have the players to adapt to the new law changes, what you saw today is our short term future....
Sorry but I have to call bullshit on that one.
And now for all the "end is nigh" shite which is being poured out all-ready. FFS just because you couldn't call it right doesn't mean we are at the end of the road. Firstly ROG must play and Best must be disposed of. Hey presto, we have a out-half and a line-out. Kearny is now just Dempsey mark 2 and D'Arcy is a smaller version of Kevin Maggs. Huge room for improvement in these positions, and between Fitzgerald and Earls lies a certain solution. In what form I'm not so sure. David Wallace was very ineffective the other night as well, We must now seriously consider putting him out to pasture.

Dan Carter would have struggled playing with Eoin Reddan yesterday.
Fact. Thats a glaring ommision in your analysis. Anyone who has played the game which I can only deduce you havent knows that an outhalf will struggle to play beside a scrum half playing as poorly as Reddan did yesterday.
ROG got to play with Stringer yesterday- another thing missing from the  above.

I'd like to see Sexton play with Stringer and then make a judgment call.

The bottom line Ireland have 4 very average scrumhalves. Very average. England have a brilliant young player in Youngs. Oz have Genea, France have Parra, Yachvilli etc. New Zealands young scrum half was excellent yesterday against England. They nearly fell apart yesterday when he was taken off.
We have no-one in that class at 9. End of story. But Stringer can pass the ball. The rest of them cant
Fair points except for the fact that I have played the game. Secondly my opinion of Sexton is formed not only by yesterday but also by performances when playing with O'Leary.
Secondly you talk about having a "excellent" scrum-half. Scrum-half's cannot be all things to all men. Parra is a passer and kicker, Irish scrum-half's over you something else. O'Leary's a defender, Stringer a passer and Reddan a tester at the fringes (normally). Yachvilli was never an exceptional outhalf and I believe you are letting the point scoring ability of Parra colour your judgement.

You tailor your game as your resources demand. That is what half a SA team did yesterday. Irelands 9s would suffice but the game must be tailored to suit or exploit the strengths. Thats all other nations do. Parra is a relatively poor tackler, see a couple of weeks ago, but france don't rely on him defensively.

Anyway some good news. Seems changes are abound in our problem area. Court did well in the scrum when he came on. But how much of that is attributed to freshness?

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2010/1107/buckleyt_kearneyr_ireland.html
yachvilli is everything at scrum half- an outrageously talented player in my view. I think Parra is excellent. Hes an adequate tackler but excellent at most facets of the game. I would gladly swop some TOL's defensive abilities for a good passing technique. With the new laws I see TOL struggling.

Court is a better option then Healy at present. Dunno what to do with tighhead. Ross is the form player and should have started yesterday but i dont think the all blacks will suit him.

Dinny Breen

QuoteSexton has to shoulder some of the blame yesterday. Yes we were destroyed in the set piece but where was the continuity or calm provided by the half-back pairings. When did sexton set the tempo or reply to pressure. Missed the first kick to settle the nerves and contributed little all day. The contrast between himself and Rog was shocking. Thats undeniable. Its now the 3rd time in 1 year ROG has been parachuted in to save a match when Sexton is floundering. When will people learn?

To ignore the failings of the front five is just ignorance, to ignore the failings of Reddan is just ignorance, to put forward the claims of man who has studied the opposition with all the analysis available for 60 minutes is just ignorance, to ignore the South African replacement policty is just ignorance, to claim a D4 agenda is yet further ignorance, to compare D'Arcy to Kevin Maggs is ignorance, in fact I just find your post ignorant.

Now answer me these questions...

1. How does an out-half set the tempo in a game of rugby?
2. If O'Gara is so good how come he probably gave the worst display from an Irish 10 in living memory in NZ?
3. What is the role of a Hooker in the line-out, what is the role of the lifters and what is the role of the jumper, the line-out is about team work, co-ordination, timing, power and communication. We failed on all accounts not just the throwing, replace Best with who Sean Cronin?
4. Do you understand what slow ball is and why it can kill any continuity?
5. Finally O'Gara missed the kick that mattered, did he choke as usual?


Finally Sexton was poor but he has better defence than O'Gara, better hands, more physical in contact, he does not have O'Gara's 100 caps of experience. A 15 minute cameo in game that was lost where we had to play catch-up rugby is not his 2nd coming. Rugby has progressed in the last 2 years, we have stood still and with such a conservative coach at the helm do not expect us to move forward anytime soon.

#newbridgeornowhere