The IRISH RUGBY thread

Started by Donnellys Hollow, October 27, 2009, 05:26:16 PM

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Celt_Man

Ahh sure Saturday's match didn't really matter anyway...  ;)

Ireland still fifth in IRB World Rankings


Ireland remain in fifth place in the IRB World Rankings despite their RBS 6 Nations defeat to Scotland on Saturday.

Declan Kidney's men are still the second highest ranked European team in the IRB rankings despite suffering their second loss of the tournament.

They were also beaten in their Round Two clash against France.

France, crowned Grand Slam Champions on Saturday, are still fourth in the table but are just .13 of a point behind third ranked nation Australia.

Southern Hemisphere giants New Zealand and South Africa are still ranked first and second.

England (7), Wales (8) and Italy (11) remain unchanged while Scotland's victory over Ireland liftss them above Fiji and from 10th into 9th.
GAA Board Six Nations Fantasy Champion 2010

AZOffaly

I think we're codding ourselves with all this talk of building for WC 2011, as if we have a chance of winning it, or even reaching a final/semi final.

At the moment I think Ireland will be the 7th best team in the World Cup, as New Zealand, South Africa and France are on a different planet to Ireland when it comes to the big games.

I also think the likes of Australia, Wales and England will put in bigger WC performances than ourselves.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think the rugby media are so desperate for us to be successful, especially on the back of Leinster and Munster's exploits that they talk us up to be a lot more than we actually are, which is on an international stage just not good enough. Fair enough we have O'Driscoll, who is a bona fide legend, but how many other Irish players would get into a World Cup 'best of' team? Don't give me Rob Kearney or Tommy Bowe. They're grand and good players, but not truly top class. Also, Paulie is a ligind for Munster and at an Irish 6 Nations level, but put him alongside the likes of Botha and he pales into the background.

Our pack in general is not in the top 7 or 8 in the world in my opinion, and we don't have a back row that can truly compete with the worlds best. Harinordoquay (sp?), Burger, McCaw, Deusetoir and others must smile to themselves when they are compared to Ferris, Wallace and even Heaslip (who I do rate, but strikes me as a lad who needs a rocket up the backside). The Scottish back row is a far better unit, and while I have great, great time for Wallace, he is not a 7. He's a powerful ball carrier, but he's not a 7.

I think this Irish team is getting the best out of itself at the moment, which puts it comfortably in second place in the Northern Hemisphere now, but closer to England Wales and Scotland than they are to France. However with O'Connell, Wallace, O'Gara, O'Driscoll, Flannery, Hayes, O'Callaghan, D'Arcy all bubbling just below or over the 30 year old mark, with tonnes of caps between them, do we really think we'll be better in 18 months time, or worse? My money is on the latter.

The Heinekein Cup has masked a lot in that Munster's pack, for example, rarely gets obliterated but it occasionaly does. And that's a club level. When 5 or 6 of that pack are playing for Ireland against the pick of France, or God help us, South Africa or New Zealand, they just do not have the strength, mobility or dynamism of the really top packs.

Rocky Elsom, Trevor Halsted, Shaun Payne, Rua Tipoki and co have been instrumental in winning HECs for Leinster and Munster, none of them are Irish qualified.

Munster, Leinster and Ulster are very competitive at club level, and I think would be competitive against clubs from down under as well, but that does not map to the International stage. Essentially 4 clubs with the pick of the country, plus a few strategic additions have every right to be competitive.

I cannot see Irish rugby mixing it with the big boys at WC11, even if the likes of Fitzgerald, Healy, Sexton, Earls, Kearney, Bowe and co continue to develop, because I don't think our pack will ever be physical enough to really stand up to the heat of a World Cup kitchen.

Our backs are promising, but they are the spoilers, go faster stripes and spotlights on a Porsche. If the engine is a Mondeo, the car is still going to be beaten when it hits the race track.

Celt_Man

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 22, 2010, 07:52:12 PM
I think we're codding ourselves with all this talk of building for WC 2011, as if we have a chance of winning it, or even reaching a final/semi final.

At the moment I think Ireland will be the 7th best team in the World Cup, as New Zealand, South Africa and France are on a different planet to Ireland when it comes to the big games.

I also think the likes of Australia, Wales and England will put in bigger WC performances than ourselves.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think the rugby media are so desperate for us to be successful, especially on the back of Leinster and Munster's exploits that they talk us up to be a lot more than we actually are, which is on an international stage just not good enough. Fair enough we have O'Driscoll, who is a bona fide legend, but how many other Irish players would get into a World Cup 'best of' team? Don't give me Rob Kearney or Tommy Bowe. They're grand and good players, but not truly top class. Also, Paulie is a ligind for Munster and at an Irish 6 Nations level, but put him alongside the likes of Botha and he pales into the background.

Our pack in general is not in the top 7 or 8 in the world in my opinion, and we don't have a back row that can truly compete with the worlds best. Harinordoquay (sp?), Burger, McCaw, Deusetoir and others must smile to themselves when they are compared to Ferris, Wallace and even Heaslip (who I do rate, but strikes me as a lad who needs a rocket up the backside). The Scottish back row is a far better unit, and while I have great, great time for Wallace, he is not a 7. He's a powerful ball carrier, but he's not a 7.

I think this Irish team is getting the best out of itself at the moment, which puts it comfortably in second place in the Northern Hemisphere now, but closer to England Wales and Scotland than they are to France. However with O'Connell, Wallace, O'Gara, O'Driscoll, Flannery, Hayes, O'Callaghan, D'Arcy all bubbling just below or over the 30 year old mark, with tonnes of caps between them, do we really think we'll be better in 18 months time, or worse? My money is on the latter.

The Heinekein Cup has masked a lot in that Munster's pack, for example, rarely gets obliterated but it occasionaly does. And that's a club level. When 5 or 6 of that pack are playing for Ireland against the pick of France, or God help us, South Africa or New Zealand, they just do not have the strength, mobility or dynamism of the really top packs.

Rocky Elsom, Trevor Halsted, Shaun Payne, Rua Tipoki and co have been instrumental in winning HECs for Leinster and Munster, none of them are Irish qualified.

Munster, Leinster and Ulster are very competitive at club level, and I think would be competitive against clubs from down under as well, but that does not map to the International stage. Essentially 4 clubs with the pick of the country, plus a few strategic additions have every right to be competitive.

I cannot see Irish rugby mixing it with the big boys at WC11, even if the likes of Fitzgerald, Healy, Sexton, Earls, Kearney, Bowe and co continue to develop, because I don't think our pack will ever be physical enough to really stand up to the heat of a World Cup kitchen.

Our backs are promising, but they are the spoilers, go faster stripes and spotlights on a Porsche. If the engine is a Mondeo, the car is still going to be beaten when it hits the race track.

Right so, how many Welsh and English players would make a world XV then?
GAA Board Six Nations Fantasy Champion 2010

Capt Pat

I would have to be a bit more optimistic than that AZ. I still think the core of the team will be good to go in 18 months. Maybe not Hayes and Wallace, put Buckley and Leamy in there in their places and the team gets a good bit younger. Look at the England team that won the world cup, it had a huge amount of experience. I would keep Hayes and Wallace for the bench or squad, wallace could still make a big impact off the bench.

We look to have more wings centres and full backs coming through from the unfer 20s and other sources. we could literally replace all of saturdays back 5 in the back in 18 months and not be at much of a loss.

The big question is where are the big quality forwards going to come from? Donacha Ryan, Devin Toner will maybe be good enough. Ferris Heaslip and Healy will be around for a while as well. Throw in Buckley and Leamy to complete a pack that could all be there at the next world cup. We are stil short a hooker and some of the big men of the quality of O'Callaghan and O'Connell in the second row. It is the front 5 that looks the weakest with Healy good around the park but not so good in the tight and Buckley questionable. We really need another O'Connell or Keith Wood type to emerge, and they do not seem to be coming through. leadership combined with ability like that is important to a team.

AZOffaly

Quote from: Celt_Man on March 22, 2010, 07:56:55 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 22, 2010, 07:52:12 PM
I think we're codding ourselves with all this talk of building for WC 2011, as if we have a chance of winning it, or even reaching a final/semi final.

At the moment I think Ireland will be the 7th best team in the World Cup, as New Zealand, South Africa and France are on a different planet to Ireland when it comes to the big games.

I also think the likes of Australia, Wales and England will put in bigger WC performances than ourselves.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think the rugby media are so desperate for us to be successful, especially on the back of Leinster and Munster's exploits that they talk us up to be a lot more than we actually are, which is on an international stage just not good enough. Fair enough we have O'Driscoll, who is a bona fide legend, but how many other Irish players would get into a World Cup 'best of' team? Don't give me Rob Kearney or Tommy Bowe. They're grand and good players, but not truly top class. Also, Paulie is a ligind for Munster and at an Irish 6 Nations level, but put him alongside the likes of Botha and he pales into the background.

Our pack in general is not in the top 7 or 8 in the world in my opinion, and we don't have a back row that can truly compete with the worlds best. Harinordoquay (sp?), Burger, McCaw, Deusetoir and others must smile to themselves when they are compared to Ferris, Wallace and even Heaslip (who I do rate, but strikes me as a lad who needs a rocket up the backside). The Scottish back row is a far better unit, and while I have great, great time for Wallace, he is not a 7. He's a powerful ball carrier, but he's not a 7.

I think this Irish team is getting the best out of itself at the moment, which puts it comfortably in second place in the Northern Hemisphere now, but closer to England Wales and Scotland than they are to France. However with O'Connell, Wallace, O'Gara, O'Driscoll, Flannery, Hayes, O'Callaghan, D'Arcy all bubbling just below or over the 30 year old mark, with tonnes of caps between them, do we really think we'll be better in 18 months time, or worse? My money is on the latter.

The Heinekein Cup has masked a lot in that Munster's pack, for example, rarely gets obliterated but it occasionaly does. And that's a club level. When 5 or 6 of that pack are playing for Ireland against the pick of France, or God help us, South Africa or New Zealand, they just do not have the strength, mobility or dynamism of the really top packs.

Rocky Elsom, Trevor Halsted, Shaun Payne, Rua Tipoki and co have been instrumental in winning HECs for Leinster and Munster, none of them are Irish qualified.

Munster, Leinster and Ulster are very competitive at club level, and I think would be competitive against clubs from down under as well, but that does not map to the International stage. Essentially 4 clubs with the pick of the country, plus a few strategic additions have every right to be competitive.

I cannot see Irish rugby mixing it with the big boys at WC11, even if the likes of Fitzgerald, Healy, Sexton, Earls, Kearney, Bowe and co continue to develop, because I don't think our pack will ever be physical enough to really stand up to the heat of a World Cup kitchen.

Our backs are promising, but they are the spoilers, go faster stripes and spotlights on a Porsche. If the engine is a Mondeo, the car is still going to be beaten when it hits the race track.

Right so, how many Welsh and English players would make a world XV then?

Not many, if any. But I have ourselves, England and Wales battling for 5th, 6th and 7th (maybe throw Argentina in there as well). That's where I see us being at the moment (probably 5th now, but heading south).

INDIANA

Quote from: Capt Pat on March 22, 2010, 08:17:58 PM
I would have to be a bit more optimistic than that AZ. I still think the core of the team will be good to go in 18 months. Maybe not Hayes and Wallace, put Buckley and Leamy in there in their places and the team gets a good bit younger. Look at the England team that won the world cup, it had a huge amount of experience. I would keep Hayes and Wallace for the bench or squad, wallace could still make a big impact off the bench.

We look to have more wings centres and full backs coming through from the unfer 20s and other sources. we could literally replace all of saturdays back 5 in the back in 18 months and not be at much of a loss.

The big question is where are the big quality forwards going to come from? Donacha Ryan, Devin Toner will maybe be good enough. Ferris Heaslip and Healy will be around for a while as well. Throw in Buckley and Leamy to complete a pack that could all be there at the next world cup. We are stil short a hooker and some of the big men of the quality of O'Callaghan and O'Connell in the second row. It is the front 5 that looks the weakest with Healy good around the park but not so good in the tight and Buckley questionable. We really need another O'Connell or Keith Wood type to emerge, and they do not seem to be coming through. leadership combined with ability like that is important to a team.

I think AZ is absolutely spot on. We are codding ourselves. This team is at the end of its cycle. I can't see us beating an Aussie team that will be peaking in 18mths. Just look at the Aussie's age profile. Perfect for 18mths. 2007 was this teams peak in terms of WC cycles.

Its like anything in sport the Aussies always get it right. They couldn't scummage- they now have made sure they can with the best scrum in the world.
We've known we can't scrummage for 2-3 years now and we've sat on our arses. Thats the difference. signing NIQ props at provincial level is an example of that. Why did the IRFU allow Leinster to sign Ross to provide central heating? He was better off at Harlequins because he was playing regularly. Ross can lock the scrum he can't do anything else but he can at least do that. He is by far the best tighthead available yet he'll never get a game for Leinster.
Donncha Ryan must be about 27 now- why wasn't he told to move to get gametime elsewhere? Toner is not international standard. Rebuild job beckons soon enough. We'll make the quarter finals but I can't see making a  semi.

INDIANA

Irish players to get make a world 15?

Tommy Bowe.


and I'll argue that till the cows come home with anyone. No one else period.

english players - none

Welsh-

Gethin Jenkins

Scotland- hard to make a case. Euan Murray on current form would make the shortlist.

That above indicates the value of a current triple crown. this is the worst English team in history. Wales have the worst pack in their history. Scotland have a limited 10 man game with an excellent backrow unit. Note the emphasis on unit rather than individuals

Celt_Man

Quote from: INDIANA on March 22, 2010, 08:48:42 PM
Irish players to get make a world 15?

Tommy Bowe.


and I'll argue that till the cows come home with anyone. No one else period.

english players - none

Welsh-

Gethin Jenkins

Scotland- hard to make a case. Euan Murray on current form would make the shortlist.

That above indicates the value of a current triple crown. this is the worst English team in history. Wales have the worst pack in their history. Scotland have a limited 10 man game with an excellent backrow unit. Note the emphasis on unit rather than individuals

yea I think I'd agree with that.  Don't think I'll bother making predictions about the World Cup for another 12 months at least too!!!  :-\ :-\
GAA Board Six Nations Fantasy Champion 2010

AZOffaly

Where would you play Bowe in a World XV INDIANA? I can't pick him ahead of Clerc or Habana to start with. I'd pick O'Driscoll for his defensive work as much as his line break at this stage, but the new enforcement of the tackle rule will hurt him more than most because he is so good at making the tackle and squirming around onto his feet to rob the ball, all in one movement.

muppet

The 2 great under performers in this 6N were ourselves and Wales. Also interesting to note that 3 of France's last 4 Grand Slams came after Lions tours.

No surprise really since we both made up most of the Lions squad and it has been a long season. Some of our players will come back to themselves after a break (I'm thinking O'Connell in particular but also O'Driscoll, Keanrey and the back row). Oddly enough they might all benefit with an early exit from the HC.

Bowe is the one guy to stay fit and hold his form all the way through. He would easily made a world XV with probably O'Driscoll the only other shout.

As someone who always wants O'Callaghan starting I give a nod to his battling performance on Sat. If Leo Cullen should have come on (and maybe he should) it was for 5 and not 4. Of course the Scottish game would be more up O'Callaghan's street than say the Babas style we tried to play at the start.
MWWSI 2017

INDIANA

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 22, 2010, 09:01:18 PM
Where would you play Bowe in a World XV INDIANA? I can't pick him ahead of Clerc or Habana to start with. I'd pick O'Driscoll for his defensive work as much as his line break at this stage, but the new enforcement of the tackle rule will hurt him more than most because he is so good at making the tackle and squirming around onto his feet to rob the ball, all in one movement.
Bowe is ahead of Clerc on current form AZ. I'm judging BOD on this year not last year.
In his defence with our gameplan this year its impossible for centres to look good. But you have a point what other 13's are out there?

Best centres at the minute  jauzion at 12 and probably BOD on reflection at 13. But i'd love to have Giteau in the team somewhere.


Main Street

Has the talk been in the press about building for the world cup with some expectation or hope?
I haven't noticed any loose talk here.
England do better at the WC than Ireland, I think that leaves Ireland in the bunch scrapping for 6th place.
At best, a quarter final.

Celt_Man

Quote from: muppet on March 22, 2010, 09:07:58 PM
The 2 great under performers in this 6N were ourselves and Wales. Also interesting to note that 3 of France's last 4 Grand Slams came after Lions tours.

No surprise really since we both made up most of the Lions squad and it has been a long season. Some of our players will come back to themselves after a break (I'm thinking O'Connell in particular but also O'Driscoll, Keanrey and the back row). Oddly enough they might all benefit with an early exit from the HC.

Bowe is the one guy to stay fit and hold his form all the way through. He would easily made a world XV with probably O'Driscoll the only other shout.

As someone who always wants O'Callaghan starting I give a nod to his battling performance on Sat. If Leo Cullen should have come on (and maybe he should) it was for 5 and not 4. Of course the Scottish game would be more up O'Callaghan's street than say the Babas style we tried to play at the start.

That's a very interesting statistic Muppet... would put a few things in a different light so

Oh and for all the boys who are predicting Ireland's position or performance at the 2011 World Cup some 18 months away, looking to the short term future any chance for the Lotto numbers for tomorrow night??  ::)
GAA Board Six Nations Fantasy Champion 2010

Schkite

Congrats to Tommy Bowe on winning the 6 nations Player of the Tournament.

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/16484.php

In fairness it really should have gone to a French player but I suppose with 4 of the 6 nominees being French the vote was split. Well done Tommy anyway!

Celt_Man

Quote from: Schkite on March 25, 2010, 06:12:01 PM
Congrats to Tommy Bowe on winning the 6 nations Player of the Tournament.

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/16484.php

In fairness it really should have gone to a French player but I suppose with 4 of the 6 nominees being French the vote was split. Well done Tommy anyway!

Knew it was coming, didn't Ryle Nugent say that Bowe was well ahead in the public votes before the last round of games anyway.  Fair play anyway Tommy ya Monaghan fooker  ;D
GAA Board Six Nations Fantasy Champion 2010