The IRISH RUGBY thread

[Dinny Breen]

At this point in time he should be dropped

For who? an out half who can't tackle, can't break and gets turned over regularly. Irelands backplay is a lot more clinical with Sexton at the helm.

[slow corner back]

I am not a rugby player at all and could well be talking nonsense but how hard would it be to coach goalkicking to a talented out half? While we are at it why dont Rob Kearney and possibly one of the wings take a little coaching too to give Ireland some options at place kicking time. I noticed in yesterdays game for one long range penalty wales had a choice of Jones, Hook or Halfpenny to take it. Do Irish coaches always rely on the out half to take the kicks?

[thewobbler]

I am not a rugby player at all and could well be talking nonsense but how hard would it be to coach goalkicking to a talented out half? While we are at it why dont Rob Kearney and possibly one of the wings take a little coaching too to give Ireland some options at place kicking time. I noticed in yesterdays game for one long range penalty wales had a choice of Jones, Hook or Halfpenny to take it. Do Irish coaches always rely on the out half to take the kicks?

There are two poor flaws in what you are saying.

The simpler one is that although Wales might have appear to have a choice of Jones, Hook or Halfpenny for their long-range kicks, the reality is that Halfpenny is a poorish kicker in terms of accuracy, and only comes into the reckoning because Jones doesn't have a long boot, while kicking consistency has always been a problem for the otherwise prodigious Hook. So for long-range kicks they tend to all look at each other, work out who is the most confident then generally watch as the incumbent fails miserably.


Regarding coaching people to goal kick - the major problem here is that you can't really coach length of kick. Undoubtedly you can add yards to your kicking length by improving technique, but this is something that happens through years of practice, not weeks or months.

And when you bring angles into the equatation, even most conversions require the ability to clear a 10ft bar from 30 yards. Out-halves, who have played a kicking role since they were nippers and as such tend to have a strong kicking leg, mostly just have to worry about accuracy. Which has to make them a better better 95 times out of 100 than a winger who has spent the last 15 years developing muscles to make him run quicker.   

[Bord na Mona man]

On a more serious note, Sexton remains to convince that he's the real deal. Yesterday had some flashes of ability with the drop goal, but both his place kicking and from hand were very poor. I've discussed this with a few people and they've said "he's young" or "he needs time" but it's not as if the guy is a baby, he's nearly 25. I think he's very much the "next best" after O'Gara instead of a true replacement. For all the depth in several positions Ireland ave these days, with a lot more promising players at the various under-age levels, we've a shocking lack of out-halves.

Sexton may not be the real deal, but he is a better all round player than O'Gara.
He offers more of a threat with ball in hand. He can distribute running forward, make breaks, commit tacklers to create space for others, offload in the tackle and also tackle himself.

It isn't coincidence that in the last two 2 games, Ireland have run in 6 decent tries with good thinking from Sexton being a feature in many of them.

While Sexton can operate flatter, O'Gara is forced to sit too deep in the pocket because of his lack of abilities in the contact area and his propensity to turn it over in contact. While he brings good tactical kicking and a safe flat pass (though usually away from the gain line), his game doesn't have enough dimensions to it to succeed against the top 4 teams in World rugby. He is fairly consistent and has served Ireland well to a point, but his record on the big stage is not good.
If you don't believe me, then look at he how he has performed on World Cups, Lions tours, Southern Hemisphere Tours and trips to Paris. 

WC2011 won't buck the trend. At least with Sexton, though he is certainly far from perfect he has more to his overall game. He stuck over the first 11 kicks for Ireland without missing one, so I wouldn't be too worried that his kicking is flawed.

Declan Kidney will dish out the platitudes about how great it is to have two great fly halves, but his mind is already made up. His stated his ambition is for Ireland to evolve towards more of a running game, instead of just kicking it all the time. ROG will be thrown a few appearances to keep him fresh, but Sexton has the jersey long term.

[Bord na Mona man]

At this point in time he should be dropped

For who? an out half who can't tackle, can't break and gets turned over regularly. Irelands backplay is a lot more clinical with Sexton at the helm.

Put a lot more succinctly than I could put it 

[Capt Pat]

Look lads if he deson't kick the goals, he can't be on the team it is as simple as that. It is something he will have to deal with and I think he will. Nobody else has stepped up to the plate to do the job from other positions so it is O'gara or Sexton and if one of them is not doing the business then the other gets their place in the team. Sexton looks like he might be the better all round prospect but if he doesn't do the simple things like easy kicks at goal and a kick going straight into touch then that is not good to the team.

[thewobbler]

Capt Pat, I refer you to the last World Cup, when ROG could neither kick a goal nor find touch, despite being a 50+ capped international.

[ha ha derry]

With the six nations all but over Sexton can count himself lucky to be ahead in the race for the No 10 shirt. He was at best average.
Against England it was noticeable the look of relief on the forwards demeanour when O Gara took to the field. The forwards seem to trust him. This kind of trust takes time to earn.
I still think the problem lies at scrum half, ( I know O LEARY was man of the match against the worst pack Ireland have played against this year) poor passing and box kicks against better opposition will be costly.

[orangeman]

O'Gara has been there done that etc etc - Sexton might never reach those dizzy heights.

I'd stick with the tried and tested for now.

[AZOffaly]

Nah, can't agree with some of this. I have great time for ROG, and I appreciate him more than most on here (Wobbler, that means you ) but this is the time to blood Sexton seriously. Give him game time. He is the heir apparent, and his overall game means he is not severely handicapping the side at all, in fact he does look good with the ball in hand, and he is a far better tackler.

His kicking from hand and from the tee will get better as he gets comfortable in his surrounds. But you won't solve that problem by dropping him. After the French defeat, it was obvious that this was the opportunity to give him his head. Dropping him now when there's no real need to would be damaging for him. (Might be great for Munster if he got the heebie jeebies, but for Ireland in the bigger picture we need him confident and playing well)

[thewobbler]

He's a poor player AZ and you know it

Seriously though, look at the Irish backline heading to the World Cup. Bowe and Kearney would have serious claims to be considered in the best team in the world. Earls and Fitzgerald are intelligent, athletic and prolific and have a year of growing ahead of them. BOD, Murphy and D'Arcy may have their best years behind them, but they can read and run lines as well as anyone. O'Leary is a flyer. Handicapping that backline with a fly-half who is only effective in the pocket would be madness.

[AZOffaly]

He's a poor player AZ and you know it

Seriously though, look at the Irish backline heading to the World Cup. Bowe and Kearney would have serious claims to be considered in the best team in the world. Earls and Fitzgerald are intelligent, athletic and prolific and have a year of growing ahead of them. BOD, Murphy and D'Arcy may have their best years behind them, but they can read and run lines as well as anyone. O'Leary is a flyer. Handicapping that backline with a fly-half who is only effective in the pocket would be madness.

Not arguing with that. I suppose the only thing is that during games, or even starting certain games, where the game plan is based on field position rather than releasing the backs, then O'Gara is probably better at the moment. But Sexton will be grand at that as well.

[The Subbie]

As an aside, I've noticed that ROG belts out the anthem but NEVER sings Ireland's Call, good number of the players sing the anthem and not Ireland's Call.

Heard a good one in the pub on Sat when the teams ran out a lad in the bar said he was away to put a few bets on and would be back when the eurovision before the game was over

[johnneycool]

Capt Pat, I refer you to the last World Cup, when ROG could neither kick a goal nor find touch, despite being a 50+ capped international.

Sexton will improve with the more gametime he gets now, O'Gara will only get worse as he's peaked a few years back.

Kidney has to keep the World cup as his main target and work to get 20 odd lads up to scratch for that. O'Gara and Hayes shouldn't be part of that, well maybe O'Gara from the bench if I'm being kind.

[AZOffaly]

O'Gara will be in the World Cup squad unless he gets tired of being backup and retires from Ireland (not beyond the realms of possibility). If you could combine Sexton's tackling and offensive positioning with O'Gara's field management and goal kicking (normally) you'd have a hell of an out half.

As I said, Sexton contributes more in an all round sense to this Ireland team, and should be the first choice #10. But if Sexton has a bad day, or gets hurt, I don't think the forwards would mind ROG coming on. The backs might be disappointed mind you.

Still not a bad option to have.