Will you vote for Fianna Fail?

[INDIANA]

its not. FF are parish pump politicians thats why the b**tards are so hard to get rid of. National government is not about fixing potholes or traffic problems in dublin. In Ireland it is and it gives useless politicians like healy rae, ahern , lowry etc licence to effect national policy. Frightening to think our future is in the hands of such gombeens

If it was about National politics the same people would have been elected and they would have made the same mess of the country. The Parish pump politics is electioneering. If it was based on National politics they would have electioneered another way but they still would have got elected as they have no morals and lies come easily.

I agree that the system should be changed but if it was Ahern would still be sitting in a cloest selling you a British tabloid.

i disagree. you would get fair better quality politics and canditates. The reason its hard to attract quality people is because well educated successful people dont want to campaign on fixing potholes for johnjo. Idiots like healy rae are only too happpy to do so to earn a shed load of money doing sweet feck all.

[Nally Stand]

I have no intention of turning this into a thread about Irish Unity, but I am writing it in response to issues raised already in the thread, such as SF's poor support in the 26 counties, the dissatisfaction with FF and the repeated posts on the thread saying that political life in this country needs totally overhauled.

While no party would campaign for a no vote, I also am firmly convinced that SF remain the only party who seem genuinely determined to work towards a UI in the south. FF are partitionists and gangsters and FG are just partitionists to their very core. As I have stated earlier, to me it seems that when times were good, people in the 26 couldn't have given a fiddlers about the 6 counties; they had lots of money and their bit of independence from foreign influence and that was all that was important. Now when times are bad, they still don't give a fiddlers about the north because the money has all gone and, once again, it's the money that is the priority. The prevailing attitude is now "ah of course a united Ireland would be nice but it's hardly important" (How is it that Irish freedom was important to people in the south prior to the tan war but not now?) Loyalty and patriotism seem to be of minimal concern, as you say Lone Shark. It is a sorry state of affairs when people are coming onto a message board to say they no longer love their country. As you say LS, most don't care about Ireland, but rather care about their own little corner of it. Any nation of people who hold an attitude like that, and who casually accept the division of their country and consistently vote for parties who, through lack of action, accept the division of their country, are, in my view, destined to be very poorly judged in history.

If the political landscape of Ireland is to be transformed, as many on the thread have expressed a hope about; then

What can we do and how should attitudes change politically?

[Lone Shark]

Regarding SF's support in the south, they have no support because they are absolute basket cases when it comes ot the economy and any issue really, other than the North. I applaud their willingness to go against the political consensus, but a lot of that is out of habit too - they just don't seem to know how to agree with anything. They make for great political theatre and the little bit of outrage is nice to add to the mix, but I just wish that one of the rational, electable parties would get a bit angry for a change.

However before Nordies get all outraged about the idea that the South might take them in, let me put it this way - we in the South would have to pay much heavier taxes to absorb the cost of the North, simply because there is feck all private sector industry and business up there - it's all government work and more public service. The Irish public service could take on the work of administering the North without anyone at all behind a desk, we'd just need the teachers, nurses and maybe a few guards, and that would do.

So yes, there would be a large chunk of the southern electorate who would tell a pollster that they'd like the idea of a UI, but when it came to the privacy of a voting booth, would tell themselves that it wasn't worth giving up the family holiday, or the new car, or whatever the extra tax would be used for.

However if we flip this beeatch for a minute, how many of the Nordies on this board who are in public sector jobs up there (a good chunk) would still vote to join the south if you knew that the first thing to happen would be that you would lose your job and have to look for private sector work instead? How many people who either have health issues themselves or who have family members with health issues would happily sacrifice the safety net of the NHS to come south? Methinks that there would be enough naysayers to tip the balance of the vote there too.

It is a sorry state of affairs when people are coming onto a message board to say they no longer love their country. As you say LS, most don't care about Ireland, but rather care about their own little corner of it. Any nation of people who hold an attitude like that, and who casually accept the division of their country and consistently vote for parties who, through lack of action, accept the division of their country, are, in my view, destined to be very poorly judged in history.

History will judge us to be the most easily led people since the Germans of the 1930's. Of course I hate this, I hate that someday I will have to explain to my grandkids about how all I did was waffle on a few internet discussion boards, but the sense of helplessness is suffocating.

How to change that attitude? I have honestly no idea.

[stephenite]

Regarding the United Ireland thing, did we not all vote that it would happen when the majority in both jurisdictions voted that they were in favour?

Considering that Sinn Fein campaigned for us all to vote in favour of the above I really do get a hump in my shite when I have to listen to the likes on Nally Stand and my cousin harping on and on and on........

[stephenite]

Zap-can I get the links to those Irish economists that hae credited the job creation aspect when you get a chance.

Also the one that states that Morgan has been one of the outstanding politicians on economic matters?
Cheers

[Nally Stand]

Regarding the United Ireland thing, did we not all vote that it would happen when the majority in both jurisdictions voted that they were in favour?

Considering that Sinn Fein campaigned for us all to vote in favour of the above I really do get a hump in my shite when I have to listen to the likes on Nally Stand and my cousin harping on and on and on........

Stephenite, I live on the same planet believe it or not. I realise that a UI will only happen by consent, but this doesn't mean it should be ignored by the majority of political parties in Ireland. Parties which portray themselves as republican need to start to develop uirther the All-Ireland aspects of the GFA and work to build support for a UI for when such a time for a referendum might come. Maybe if that happened, people in the south might stop complaining about nordies "harping on" about a UI and decide that they actually think it is worth "harping on" about.

[Nally Stand]

You beat me too it Zap. SF are certainly one of those parties which tend to receive a disproportionate amount of groundless accusations on most issues, but particularly on the economy. Lone Shark, you are not alone in referring to Gerry Adam's performance in a TV debate three years ago. It is hardly smart politics to use an interview carried out in 2007 to damn an entire party as "unelectable". Closer examination of the facts back up what Zap pointed out. SF have released economic recovery documents north and south (which is the smart way to look at it), and both documents have received significant praise, which is no small achievement in an era like this where opposition parties have freedom to blame and criticise at will.

The TASC Economists Network stated that SF's pre budget submission on economic recovery in the south "is a bold programme to reinvigorate the economy, a programme that understands that employment is key and that the living conditions of low-income households are not an obstacle to growth but rather a pre-condition. In its broad outlines it is worthy of study, debate and support."

It goes on to state that...

"Sinn Fein provides a sound basis for which to construct stimulus strategies – in terms of their cost and their returns. My real concern is that their robust analysis will be largely unread and ignored in the wider debate."

How true. And all because of a TV interview in 2007.

[Geoff Tipps]

Zap-can I get the links to those Irish economists that hae credited the job creation aspect when you get a chance.

Also the one that states that Morgan has been one of the outstanding politicians on economic matters?
Cheers

Yeah I'd like to see that too.

[Declan]

The constituency office of Noel Dempsey ( the one in Trim ) was attacked last night.
Windows were smashed and the work "traitors" was sprayed on the building.

No truth that it was Louth supporters

[stephenite]

Regarding the United Ireland thing, did we not all vote that it would happen when the majority in both jurisdictions voted that they were in favour?

Considering that Sinn Fein campaigned for us all to vote in favour of the above I really do get a hump in my shite when I have to listen to the likes on Nally Stand and my cousin harping on and on and on........

Stephenite, I live on the same planet believe it or not. I realise that a UI will only happen by consent, but this doesn't mean it should be ignored by the majority of political parties in Ireland. Parties which portray themselves as republican need to start to develop uirther the All-Ireland aspects of the GFA and work to build support for a UI for when such a time for a referendum might come. Maybe if that happened, people in the south might stop complaining about nordies "harping on" about a UI and decide that they actually think it is worth "harping on" about.

How is it being ignored, all political parties campaigned for the GFA IIRC, most people assume that their politician are not actively pursuing a United Ireland at the moment because it would be a waste of fecking time. The notion that any referendum held on the matter in the next 20 years is unlikely, the idea that a United Ireland will come to pass in the same timeframe is doubly unlikely in my view, particularly considering the events of the last few weeks.

What exactly is it you're looking for anyway? If you accept the principle of consent you surely must accept that the consent of the Loyalist community is not likely anytime soon, if ever, so what do you want from Southern political parties and people? Weekly press releases demanding reunification, but only when the good people of Ulster are ready? Rallys demanding that reunification occur immediately - even though we've already voted to wait until ye're ready?

If we had a bit less of the condasceding shite on what's worth it and what's not we'd be more inclined to listen, but there's nothing new to listen to, same auld shite day after day.

[seafoid]

FF have really collapsed over the last week. Watching Pat Rabbitte on thursday then Biffo snarling then the evasions ,even Lenihan caught on the hop yesterday. What an implosion.

Had to laugh at some muppet backbencher from Cork on the news yesterday saying Cowen had damaged the economy. You all did you thick FF f***er. 

[glens abu]

Regarding the United Ireland thing, did we not all vote that it would happen when the majority in both jurisdictions voted that they were in favour?

Considering that Sinn Fein campaigned for us all to vote in favour of the above I really do get a hump in my shite when I have to listen to the likes on Nally Stand and my cousin harping on and on and on........

Stephenite, I live on the same planet believe it or not. I realise that a UI will only happen by consent, but this doesn't mean it should be ignored by the majority of political parties in Ireland. Parties which portray themselves as republican need to start to develop uirther the All-Ireland aspects of the GFA and work to build support for a UI for when such a time for a referendum might come. Maybe if that happened, people in the south might stop complaining about nordies "harping on" about a UI and decide that they actually think it is worth "harping on" about.

How is it being ignored, all political parties campaigned for the GFA IIRC, most people assume that their politician are not actively pursuing a United Ireland at the moment because it would be a waste of fecking time. The notion that any referendum held on the matter in the next 20 years is unlikely, the idea that a United Ireland will come to pass in the same timeframe is doubly unlikely in my view, particularly considering the events of the last few weeks.

What exactly is it you're looking for anyway? If you accept the principle of consent you surely must accept that the consent of the Loyalist community is not likely anytime soon, if ever, so what do you want from Southern political parties and people? Weekly press releases demanding reunification, but only when the good people of Ulster are ready? Rallys demanding that reunification occur immediately - even though we've already voted to wait until ye're ready?

If we had a bit less of the condasceding shite on what's worth it and what's not we'd be more inclined to listen, but there's nothing new to listen to, same auld shite day after day.

Take me home to Mayo,Oh my God

[Stall the Bailer]

I would like that all Irish passport holders North and South, would have opportunity to vote in the president elections.
That the North/South body be made into a proper electable forum. With elections on both sides of the border. This body would have control and funds over everything that is of national importance, e.g. Tourism Ireland, Waterway Ireland, energy integration, national infrastructure, mobile phone coverage, TV transmission etc.
Basically anything that would benefit people on both sides the border, would be governed by this body. It would also have remit to look at what future bodies could be intergraded.

[Nally Stand]

Regarding the United Ireland thing, did we not all vote that it would happen when the majority in both jurisdictions voted that they were in favour?

Considering that Sinn Fein campaigned for us all to vote in favour of the above I really do get a hump in my shite when I have to listen to the likes on Nally Stand and my cousin harping on and on and on........

Stephenite, I live on the same planet believe it or not. I realise that a UI will only happen by consent, but this doesn't mean it should be ignored by the majority of political parties in Ireland. Parties which portray themselves as republican need to start to develop uirther the All-Ireland aspects of the GFA and work to build support for a UI for when such a time for a referendum might come. Maybe if that happened, people in the south might stop complaining about nordies "harping on" about a UI and decide that they actually think it is worth "harping on" about.

How is it being ignored, all political parties campaigned for the GFA IIRC, most people assume that their politician are not actively pursuing a United Ireland at the moment because it would be a waste of fecking time. The notion that any referendum held on the matter in the next 20 years is unlikely, the idea that a United Ireland will come to pass in the same timeframe is doubly unlikely in my view, particularly considering the events of the last few weeks.

What exactly is it you're looking for anyway? If you accept the principle of consent you surely must accept that the consent of the Loyalist community is not likely anytime soon, if ever, so what do you want from Southern political parties and people? Weekly press releases demanding reunification, but only when the good people of Ulster are ready? Rallys demanding that reunification occur immediately - even though we've already voted to wait until ye're ready?

If we had a bit less of the condasceding shite on what's worth it and what's not we'd be more inclined to listen, but there's nothing new to listen to, same auld shite day after day.

What would I like? Personally to never have to see partitionists in government. That all aspects of North/South co-operation outlined in the GFA which have STILL not been implemented would be seen as a priority for implementation by southern politicians, that other All-Ireland areas of co-operation would be pounced upon as an opportunity and not routinely ignored. The Irish President is from County Down and yet her own County men and women were unable to vote for her. This is someting the "Republican Party" of FF have been lobbied upon for years and something they have routinely refused to do anything about. Partitionism. Another FF politician referred to people from the south who shopped in Newry as "unpatriotic".  Partitionism.

The principle of consent is one that is established however, as has been noted by LS, many in the south would likely, in the secrecy of a voting booth, vote against a UI in favour of saving a few cents. What I would like is for more people to be remember that if so many died for independence, what is a few cents in terms of a sacrifice in comparison? What I would like especially is for the mindset to change whereby people in the 26 counties would cease to see Irish people in the six counties as different and would cease to refer to people as "nordies" or "them up north" or "brits" (as I have been referred to on several occasions when in the 26 counties). I am not attempting to be condescending, I am merely speaking from my experience. While I was travelling in various countries, I always referred to people I met from Ireland in terms of being from "County .....", where as those in the south always talked about me as not being from County Tyrone, but as being a "nordie". It's a mindset that I for one would like to see changed.

As I say, this isn't an attempt to change the discussion of the thread, but rather furthering the debate on how the political life in Ireland could be reformed.

[Nally Stand]

Zap-can I get the links to those Irish economists that hae credited the job creation aspect when you get a chance.

Also the one that states that Morgan has been one of the outstanding politicians on economic matters?
Cheers

Yeah I'd like to see that too.

I'm not trying to speak for Zap, but he didn't say that anybody "stated" that Arthur Morgan was one of the best TDs on the issue. He was stating his own view, so why ask for a link?

As for a link to economists praising SF's economic recovery strategy, then read my post at 10:40am.