Will you vote for Fianna Fail?

[ballinaman]

I'll be giving Dara Calleary my vote in the next election because he has done lots for North Mayo and has been a sound lad any time I've met him. I won't be giving 2,3,4 to FF though, always base vote on the strength of the individual candidate.
All this is academic actually because I won't be home to vote anyways. Bondi beach in November...emigration can have it's perks

I'm sure Dara is a nice guy and he seems well regarded. However he voted with his party on the decisions that have just bankrupted the State. Last week I didn't see him stand up for his county (or country) and demand that Cowen tell us the truth that the IMF were here to bail us out, especially since everyone knew it anyway.

There are nice guys in the McCarthy-Dundon gang as well.

Thats fair enough. It's a pity though but I can see he's gotta take the hit since he's under the FF banner, only right. Enoy these threads, more insight here than you'd get from any political tv or radio show.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

I am not in the slightest trying to stir sh*t and I am asking this as a serious question in this regard, for the 26 county contingent.

What circumstances must there be before people in the twenty six counties will genuinely give a fiddlers fart about partition of their country? It seems that the prevailing attitudes in the south are either "f**k the nordies" or "ahh a united Ireland would be nice yes, but it's not important".

In the line of work some six months ago, I had cause to meet a national school teacher from Fermanagh who was teaching in Leitrim. He was a very genuine guy, and one who I gathered from the conversation was very active in terms of being part of the SF movement. However he suffered from the same delusion that I think many nordies up there do - he thought that once the North wanted to join with the South, they would be accepted with open arms once that time came. He seemed genuinely upset as I explained that I thought it was way more complicated than that. Quite simply, your second option pretty much sums it up - and when it comes to the actual amalgamation, where either the Nordies have to give up on the NHS and the culture of 50% government employment, or the southerners have to pay the bill for that, there is little or no chance of getting both sides to say yes. It just can't happen.

To tie it back into this thread, people in the south do not care about Ireland - they care about their own corner of it. Given the choice between a politician who wants to put more soup in the pot, or a politician who just wants a bigger spoon for themselves and their constituency, we always choose the latter. Irish voters in Tipperary North couldn't give a flying shi'ite about people in Tipperary South, never mind South Down or Lagan Valley. We care about national sport, and we say we love Ireland, but I can honestly say that I've lost any love or respect for this country as an entity and I'd say most people, if they examine their actions as opposed to their words, would be forced to come to the same conclusion. I love my home county of Offaly as dearly as ever and would love nothing more than to settle down there, but if I have to emigrate, which is more and more likely, I will miss Offaly - I won't miss Ireland.


With regard to the thread topic, the funny thing is that people now have the chance to do the country some real service. At this stage it doesn't matter how much we borrow - there isn't a prayer of it being paid back, so we might as well borrow as much as we can. We're going to default anyway. (The numbers require us to effectively run a 30% surplus every year just to stand still on our national debt - I think we all know the prospects of that happening)

However we do have the chance to actually rid the country of the FF cancer. We talk about the system being broken and it is, but it is broken because they have mastered the art of abusing it. We created a political system designed to give everyone an equal voice, they turned it into a system of self-propagation. Of course it got broken.

But now, we have the chance to cut them off from the oxygen that is power. You won't change a lot of people who are either part of the machine or else pensioners incapable of voting for anyone else, neither can you do anything for those who "just don't like" Enda and can't make the link between the lack of a job and the number one vote they cast in the ballot, but you can keep them down to 20 seats, and then whoever is in has to compound the damage - which requires a few steps.

(1) Hammer into the quangos. Remove most of quangos themselves, and in the remainder get rid of all FF appointees. Bertie appointed his friends - well if their only qualification is being Bertie's friends - boot them out.
(2) Shine a light on every dirty little crevice in this state. State exactly how badly off we are, and make sure people associate it with cronyism, and then let the witchhunt begin. Expand the CAB to take in more corruption cases, change the laws so that the proceeds of criminal activity and bribery can be taken back even after being transferred to spouses or passed on in the case of death, and then investigate every rezoning decision and follow the money. Investigate every planning permission decision. And then hang them from every tree. Make taking a €10k backhander a treasonous offence, and never let them see the light of day again.
(3) Stop protecting dead industry that just has friends in the right places. Unviable small farms living off REPS, bookmakers, publicans, new motor retail, solicitors, all of these sectors have too much froth for all the wrong reasons and they add no value to the economy. Stop subsidising industry because "jobs will be lost" - jobs will follow wherever government money goes - so put it in sensible places.
(4) Change the rules to stop favouring FF's sleveen ways. Political posters add nothing but litter and printing costs - votes should not be cast on the basis of who comes up with the best four word slogan. Ban them. Open the doors to FOI again, which have essentially been closed. Stop the practice of paying for "constituency offices" out of state money. Make using government postal stationary for party political affairs a criminal offence, punishable by loss of seat. Not alone should there be a register of interests, there should be a register of how those interests have been accumulated. Somehow Frank Fahey has gone from being a teacher, to a TD, and accumulated 40 odd properties in the process, worth more than every penny he's ever been paid? Most important of all, make illegal the practice of politicians interfering in basic administration of the state and the hiring of staff. I know two different lads who have been "promised" that when the Guards recruit next, they will be included as long as they don't make an unholy mess of the interview. How many garda transfers, civil service jobs and teaching posts have been given out with the help of nods and winks? This culture has to stop.


I've always used the parallel before that when I was working within the bookmaking industry, the cries for honesty and transparency used to amuse me. Nobody wants honesty and transparency - they just don't want to be the one getting the sharp end of the stick when the favourite gets nobbled and the 10/1 morning shot lands the gamble at 5/2. Irish people don't want a fair game, they just want to be the one with the inside track.

I do think that the time has come to strike while the iron is hot, and take some steps to put an end to that culture. Central  to that is the eradication of FF as a political force for good and for glory, and we've never had a better chance of achieving that than we do right now.

Great post LS. You've convinced me how I am going to vote now, despite what I had suggested up to now. But whoever takes over needs to change dramatically the system or else it will be more of the same. But a line in the sand does need to be drawn by the people. How bad will it be for FF? Less than 40 seats?

Fantastic post LS. I would tackle the Bertie appointees straight aways in any reform.

[ardal]

Why vote. Seriously though. Given the choice of drowning in shite or crap, would you really consider there to be much of a difference?

What about getting TRF to stand as a party, and we could all vote for him?

[Bogball XV]

II nearly got lynched in there for questioning the glory of the Glorious Leader.

Stopped going in there even though its convienient. Just sickens my hole. Never voted for him once even though he landslides home in every General election. And will in this one.

I'd be shocked if he stands tbh, Cyprian will have to hope all 927 or whatever who gave him first preference last time, do so again.  That again shows the type of his running mate, mostly they divide the first preferences, but not that weasel.

He has no interest in being there, he only turns up when made to for important votes, he'd be better off on his taoiseach's pension rather than his td salary, and we all know that's the bottom line with him.

I'd love him to stand for president all the same, maybe the news of the world will provide him with posters?

[seafoid]

FF are going to tear themselves apart in bitching and recriminations before the election goes ahead.  So 17% would be best case. The backbenchers are already getting uppity and it is clear that the leadership have no credibility. 

[IolarCoisCuain]

The Lone Shark is correct. The country is rotten to the core. Our idea of patriotism goes as far as booing England at the World Cup, and no further. We have no vision to see beyond our own snouts.

Where I disagree is the idea that Fine Gael or Labour are any better. Fine Gael and Labour won't end cronyism - they'll just swap in their own cronies for the FF ones, and then get booted out again when FF come back. Niamh Breatnach had her entire family employed in the Department of Education when she was Minister, unless I'm very mistaken.

I would vote for Fine Gael if they said they were going to clear out the stables. If Fine Gael said the institutions of the state do no serve us, and we need a whole new system of governance, from the county councils up.

Fine Gael are saying nothing of the sort. Enda Kenny hasn't been seen or heard from all week. He's just sitting waiting for power to fall into his lap. This is the man who wants to be leader of the country - why doesn't he lead?

There is only one counter-argument, again mentioned by the Lone Shark. That no matter how distasteful voting Fine Gael / Labour might be, it is the only way to punish a failed Government. That's something I need to think about.

I envy people their certainty. I haven't a bog what to do myself. Other than say that if I could emigrate you wouldn't see me for dust.

[INDIANA]

The Lone Shark is correct. The country is rotten to the core. Our idea of patriotism goes as far as booing England at the World Cup, and no further. We have no vision to see beyond our own snouts.

Where I disagree is the idea that Fine Gael or Labour are any better. Fine Gael and Labour won't end cronyism - they'll just swap in their own cronies for the FF ones, and then get booted out again when FF come back. Niamh Breatnach had her entire family employed in the Department of Education when she was Minister, unless I'm very mistaken.

I would vote for Fine Gael if they said they were going to clear out the stables. If Fine Gael said the institutions of the state do no serve us, and we need a whole new system of governance, from the county councils up.

Fine Gael are saying nothing of the sort. Enda Kenny hasn't been seen or heard from all week. He's just sitting waiting for power to fall into his lap. This is the man who wants to be leader of the country - why doesn't he lead?

There is only one counter-argument, again mentioned by the Lone Shark. That no matter how distasteful voting Fine Gael / Labour might be, it is the only way to punish a failed Government. That's something I need to think about.

I envy people their certainty. I haven't a bog what to do myself. Other than say that if I could emigrate you wouldn't see me for dust.

I find it difficult to undulge this concept of the lack of alternative. There  is no thought process. A vote for FF is a vote for corruption no matter what way you dress it up. I've never voted FG or labour before but I'm screwed if i'm voting for Ahern and Co. A vote for an independent is a wasted vote in this election

[IolarCoisCuain]

The Lone Shark is correct. The country is rotten to the core. Our idea of patriotism goes as far as booing England at the World Cup, and no further. We have no vision to see beyond our own snouts.

Where I disagree is the idea that Fine Gael or Labour are any better. Fine Gael and Labour won't end cronyism - they'll just swap in their own cronies for the FF ones, and then get booted out again when FF come back. Niamh Breatnach had her entire family employed in the Department of Education when she was Minister, unless I'm very mistaken.

I would vote for Fine Gael if they said they were going to clear out the stables. If Fine Gael said the institutions of the state do no serve us, and we need a whole new system of governance, from the county councils up.

Fine Gael are saying nothing of the sort. Enda Kenny hasn't been seen or heard from all week. He's just sitting waiting for power to fall into his lap. This is the man who wants to be leader of the country - why doesn't he lead?

There is only one counter-argument, again mentioned by the Lone Shark. That no matter how distasteful voting Fine Gael / Labour might be, it is the only way to punish a failed Government. That's something I need to think about.

I envy people their certainty. I haven't a bog what to do myself. Other than say that if I could emigrate you wouldn't see me for dust.

I find it difficult to undulge this concept of the lack of alternative. There  is no thought process. A vote for FF is a vote for corruption no matter what way you dress it up. I've never voted FG or labour before but I'm screwed if i'm voting for Ahern and Co. A vote for an independent is a wasted vote in this election

Why do you think Fianna Fáil is the only inherently corrupt political party? Why don't other political parties campaign to end the loopholes in the system that encourage corruption, other than the need to avail of those loopholes themselves?

[INDIANA]

The Lone Shark is correct. The country is rotten to the core. Our idea of patriotism goes as far as booing England at the World Cup, and no further. We have no vision to see beyond our own snouts.

Where I disagree is the idea that Fine Gael or Labour are any better. Fine Gael and Labour won't end cronyism - they'll just swap in their own cronies for the FF ones, and then get booted out again when FF come back. Niamh Breatnach had her entire family employed in the Department of Education when she was Minister, unless I'm very mistaken.

I would vote for Fine Gael if they said they were going to clear out the stables. If Fine Gael said the institutions of the state do no serve us, and we need a whole new system of governance, from the county councils up.

Fine Gael are saying nothing of the sort. Enda Kenny hasn't been seen or heard from all week. He's just sitting waiting for power to fall into his lap. This is the man who wants to be leader of the country - why doesn't he lead?

There is only one counter-argument, again mentioned by the Lone Shark. That no matter how distasteful voting Fine Gael / Labour might be, it is the only way to punish a failed Government. That's something I need to think about.

I envy people their certainty. I haven't a bog what to do myself. Other than say that if I could emigrate you wouldn't see me for dust.

I find it difficult to undulge this concept of the lack of alternative. There  is no thought process. A vote for FF is a vote for corruption no matter what way you dress it up. I've never voted FG or labour before but I'm screwed if i'm voting for Ahern and Co. A vote for an independent is a wasted vote in this election

Why do you think Fianna Fáil is the only inherently corrupt political party? Why don't other political parties campaign to end the loopholes in the system that encourage corruption, other than the need to avail of those loopholes themselves?

Utterly irrelvent for this election. This is not a political ideology election. It is simple- do you support a party that bankrupted Ireland. If the people of Ireland believe no-one should be sanctioned for it then there is no hope for us.
They have to be shown the door. The others cant do worse.

[IolarCoisCuain]

The Lone Shark is correct. The country is rotten to the core. Our idea of patriotism goes as far as booing England at the World Cup, and no further. We have no vision to see beyond our own snouts.

Where I disagree is the idea that Fine Gael or Labour are any better. Fine Gael and Labour won't end cronyism - they'll just swap in their own cronies for the FF ones, and then get booted out again when FF come back. Niamh Breatnach had her entire family employed in the Department of Education when she was Minister, unless I'm very mistaken.

I would vote for Fine Gael if they said they were going to clear out the stables. If Fine Gael said the institutions of the state do no serve us, and we need a whole new system of governance, from the county councils up.

Fine Gael are saying nothing of the sort. Enda Kenny hasn't been seen or heard from all week. He's just sitting waiting for power to fall into his lap. This is the man who wants to be leader of the country - why doesn't he lead?

There is only one counter-argument, again mentioned by the Lone Shark. That no matter how distasteful voting Fine Gael / Labour might be, it is the only way to punish a failed Government. That's something I need to think about.

I envy people their certainty. I haven't a bog what to do myself. Other than say that if I could emigrate you wouldn't see me for dust.

I find it difficult to undulge this concept of the lack of alternative. There  is no thought process. A vote for FF is a vote for corruption no matter what way you dress it up. I've never voted FG or labour before but I'm screwed if i'm voting for Ahern and Co. A vote for an independent is a wasted vote in this election

Why do you think Fianna Fáil is the only inherently corrupt political party? Why don't other political parties campaign to end the loopholes in the system that encourage corruption, other than the need to avail of those loopholes themselves?

Utterly irrelvent for this election. This is not a political ideology election. It is simple- do you support a party that bankrupted Ireland. If the people of Ireland believe no-one should be sanctioned for it then there is no hope for us.
They have to be shown the door. The others cant do worse.

Fair enough Indiana. I think I mentioned that as well in the original post. I just wish someone would say we need to save ourselves from ourselves. God help us all.

[INDIANA]

In theory I agree the political ideology in Ireland stinks. But thats because the system stinks. It is utterly focused on local issues rather then national issues. Potholes in a country boreen have nothing to do with running the country effectively.

But for the purposes of this we have to get rid of FF.

[IolarCoisCuain]

In theory I agree the political ideology in Ireland stinks. But thats because the system stinks. It is utterly focused on local issues rather then national issues. Potholes in a country boreen have nothing to do with running the country effectively.

But for the purposes of this we have to get rid of FF.

Fair enough. I'm not here to save them.

[muppet]

The Lone Shark is correct. The country is rotten to the core. Our idea of patriotism goes as far as booing England at the World Cup, and no further. We have no vision to see beyond our own snouts.

Where I disagree is the idea that Fine Gael or Labour are any better. Fine Gael and Labour won't end cronyism - they'll just swap in their own cronies for the FF ones, and then get booted out again when FF come back. Niamh Breatnach had her entire family employed in the Department of Education when she was Minister, unless I'm very mistaken.

I would vote for Fine Gael if they said they were going to clear out the stables. If Fine Gael said the institutions of the state do no serve us, and we need a whole new system of governance, from the county councils up.

Fine Gael are saying nothing of the sort. Enda Kenny hasn't been seen or heard from all week. He's just sitting waiting for power to fall into his lap. This is the man who wants to be leader of the country - why doesn't he lead?

There is only one counter-argument, again mentioned by the Lone Shark. That no matter how distasteful voting Fine Gael / Labour might be, it is the only way to punish a failed Government. That's something I need to think about.

I envy people their certainty. I haven't a bog what to do myself. Other than say that if I could emigrate you wouldn't see me for dust.

Good post.

[mylestheslasher]

I am not in the slightest trying to stir sh*t and I am asking this as a serious question in this regard, for the 26 county contingent.

What circumstances must there be before people in the twenty six counties will genuinely give a fiddlers fart about partition of their country? It seems that the prevailing attitudes in the south are either "f**k the nordies" or "ahh a united Ireland would be nice yes, but it's not important".

In the line of work some six months ago, I had cause to meet a national school teacher from Fermanagh who was teaching in Leitrim. He was a very genuine guy, and one who I gathered from the conversation was very active in terms of being part of the SF movement. However he suffered from the same delusion that I think many nordies up there do - he thought that once the North wanted to join with the South, they would be accepted with open arms once that time came. He seemed genuinely upset as I explained that I thought it was way more complicated than that. Quite simply, your second option pretty much sums it up - and when it comes to the actual amalgamation, where either the Nordies have to give up on the NHS and the culture of 50% government employment, or the southerners have to pay the bill for that, there is little or no chance of getting both sides to say yes. It just can't happen.

To tie it back into this thread, people in the south do not care about Ireland - they care about their own corner of it. Given the choice between a politician who wants to put more soup in the pot, or a politician who just wants a bigger spoon for themselves and their constituency, we always choose the latter. Irish voters in Tipperary North couldn't give a flying shi'ite about people in Tipperary South, never mind South Down or Lagan Valley. We care about national sport, and we say we love Ireland, but I can honestly say that I've lost any love or respect for this country as an entity and I'd say most people, if they examine their actions as opposed to their words, would be forced to come to the same conclusion. I love my home county of Offaly as dearly as ever and would love nothing more than to settle down there, but if I have to emigrate, which is more and more likely, I will miss Offaly - I won't miss Ireland.


With regard to the thread topic, the funny thing is that people now have the chance to do the country some real service. At this stage it doesn't matter how much we borrow - there isn't a prayer of it being paid back, so we might as well borrow as much as we can. We're going to default anyway. (The numbers require us to effectively run a 30% surplus every year just to stand still on our national debt - I think we all know the prospects of that happening)

However we do have the chance to actually rid the country of the FF cancer. We talk about the system being broken and it is, but it is broken because they have mastered the art of abusing it. We created a political system designed to give everyone an equal voice, they turned it into a system of self-propagation. Of course it got broken.

But now, we have the chance to cut them off from the oxygen that is power. You won't change a lot of people who are either part of the machine or else pensioners incapable of voting for anyone else, neither can you do anything for those who "just don't like" Enda and can't make the link between the lack of a job and the number one vote they cast in the ballot, but you can keep them down to 20 seats, and then whoever is in has to compound the damage - which requires a few steps.

(1) Hammer into the quangos. Remove most of quangos themselves, and in the remainder get rid of all FF appointees. Bertie appointed his friends - well if their only qualification is being Bertie's friends - boot them out.
(2) Shine a light on every dirty little crevice in this state. State exactly how badly off we are, and make sure people associate it with cronyism, and then let the witchhunt begin. Expand the CAB to take in more corruption cases, change the laws so that the proceeds of criminal activity and bribery can be taken back even after being transferred to spouses or passed on in the case of death, and then investigate every rezoning decision and follow the money. Investigate every planning permission decision. And then hang them from every tree. Make taking a €10k backhander a treasonous offence, and never let them see the light of day again.
(3) Stop protecting dead industry that just has friends in the right places. Unviable small farms living off REPS, bookmakers, publicans, new motor retail, solicitors, all of these sectors have too much froth for all the wrong reasons and they add no value to the economy. Stop subsidising industry because "jobs will be lost" - jobs will follow wherever government money goes - so put it in sensible places.
(4) Change the rules to stop favouring FF's sleveen ways. Political posters add nothing but litter and printing costs - votes should not be cast on the basis of who comes up with the best four word slogan. Ban them. Open the doors to FOI again, which have essentially been closed. Stop the practice of paying for "constituency offices" out of state money. Make using government postal stationary for party political affairs a criminal offence, punishable by loss of seat. Not alone should there be a register of interests, there should be a register of how those interests have been accumulated. Somehow Frank Fahey has gone from being a teacher, to a TD, and accumulated 40 odd properties in the process, worth more than every penny he's ever been paid? Most important of all, make illegal the practice of politicians interfering in basic administration of the state and the hiring of staff. I know two different lads who have been "promised" that when the Guards recruit next, they will be included as long as they don't make an unholy mess of the interview. How many garda transfers, civil service jobs and teaching posts have been given out with the help of nods and winks? This culture has to stop.


I've always used the parallel before that when I was working within the bookmaking industry, the cries for honesty and transparency used to amuse me. Nobody wants honesty and transparency - they just don't want to be the one getting the sharp end of the stick when the favourite gets nobbled and the 10/1 morning shot lands the gamble at 5/2. Irish people don't want a fair game, they just want to be the one with the inside track.

I do think that the time has come to strike while the iron is hot, and take some steps to put an end to that culture. Central  to that is the eradication of FF as a political force for good and for glory, and we've never had a better chance of achieving that than we do right now.

I totally disagree with you on reunification. When the time comes and the ballot paper is put in front of southerners the decision will be based on emotional aspects more so than simple fiscal issues. Righting wrong of 100's of years would not pass us by and not even fg would vote against it, so I think you have that one totally wrong. Also, personally I love my country, its people and its history. The problem is policies of greed and ultra capitalism took hold of many and people lost the plot. Maybe hard times will bring back some of the spirit of community that we lost. I love my own county best cos it is home but there are many people and places in this country that I have a gra for.

I agree totally with you on ridding ourselves of the ff vermin and destroying the rotten legacy of quangos they leave behind.

I agree

[INDIANA]

In theory I agree the political ideology in Ireland stinks. But thats because the system stinks. It is utterly focused on local issues rather then national issues. Potholes in a country boreen have nothing to do with running the country effectively.

But for the purposes of this we have to get rid of FF.

That's a disclaimer and let's them off the hook. The system did not tell the financial regulator to keep his nose out nor did it tell Bertie Ahern to back No5 in the 3.45 in Galway.

its not. FF are parish pump politicians thats why the bastards are so hard to get rid of. National government is not about fixing potholes or traffic problems in dublin. In Ireland it is and it gives useless politicians like healy rae, ahern , lowry etc licence to effect national policy. Frightening to think our future is in the hands of such gombeens