Will you vote for Fianna Fail?

Started by mayogodhelpus@gmail.com, November 19, 2010, 09:09:46 PM

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Will you vote for Fianna Fail?

Yes in the next election
44 (24.2%)
Maybe at some time in the future
24 (13.2%)
No never again
52 (28.6%)
I never have
62 (34.1%)

Total Members Voted: 182

armaghniac

Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2015, 12:36:51 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 24, 2015, 12:22:14 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 23, 2015, 05:09:51 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 23, 2015, 04:53:25 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 23, 2015, 04:35:31 PM
Hard to believe that FF are getting 29% in carlow/kk, we have short memories

What's the alternative?

Literally any of the other parties

Not much of an 'alternative' though really.

None of the alternatives bankrupt the country

I think you need the past tense there.
The present government didn't do anything much, under the guidance of the Troika, that a FF government would not have done.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

From the Bunker

Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2015, 12:36:51 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 24, 2015, 12:22:14 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 23, 2015, 05:09:51 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 23, 2015, 04:53:25 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 23, 2015, 04:35:31 PM
Hard to believe that FF are getting 29% in carlow/kk, we have short memories

What's the alternative?

Literally any of the other parties

Not much of an 'alternative' though really.

None of the alternatives bankrupt the country

So your answer is to go back Fianna Fail to sort out this country? Time to move on. Fool me once shame on you..................

macdanger2

Quote from: armaghniac on May 24, 2015, 12:40:19 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2015, 12:36:51 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 24, 2015, 12:22:14 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 23, 2015, 05:09:51 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 23, 2015, 04:53:25 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 23, 2015, 04:35:31 PM
Hard to believe that FF are getting 29% in carlow/kk, we have short memories

What's the alternative?

Literally any of the other parties

Not much of an 'alternative' though really.

None of the alternatives bankrupt the country

I think you need the past tense there.
The present government didn't do anything much, under the guidance of the Troika, that a FF government would not have done.

Updated now  :)

As I said, ANY of the alternatives would be better than FF

armaghniac

FF didn't fool anyone, their plans were in their manifesto more or less. People believed in the money tree and voted for them.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Rossfan

Their new found delight at winning Carlow/Kilkenny disappearing rapidly as Senator Avril Power jumps ship criticising the Leader.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

magpie seanie

Quote from: armaghniac on May 24, 2015, 02:42:31 AM
FF didn't fool anyone, their plans were in their manifesto more or less. People believed in the money tree and voted for them.

FG and LAB are the same party as FF, with a different colour scheme. We have had one party in power for over 80 years.

muppet

Quote from: armaghniac on May 24, 2015, 02:42:31 AM
FF didn't fool anyone, their plans were in their manifesto more or less. People believed in the money tree and voted for them.

FF introduced the Bank Guarantee. They told us in the Dáil that it was because there was a liquidity problem, not one of solvency. They were wrong and that destroyed the economy.

People voted for FF because they were more convincing in fooling voters that they could do anything for them, with no consequences. SF have replaced them in that regard. But FF gave us the Bank Guarantee. It was on no manifesto ever and considering the lie about solvency, it is debatable whether or not it was fraud.
MWWSI 2017

Rossfan

Good post Muppet.
Started as far back as 1977.... Cut taxes and increase public spending and all will be fine.
Fast forward to Sinn Féin 2015.... Cut taxes and increase.........
When will we ever learn....? :(
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

armaghniac

Quote from: muppet on May 26, 2015, 05:31:33 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 24, 2015, 02:42:31 AM
FF didn't fool anyone, their plans were in their manifesto more or less. People believed in the money tree and voted for them.

FF introduced the Bank Guarantee. They told us in the Dáil that it was because there was a liquidity problem, not one of solvency. They were wrong and that destroyed the economy.

People voted for FF because they were more convincing in fooling voters that they could do anything for them, with no consequences. SF have replaced them in that regard. But FF gave us the Bank Guarantee. It was on no manifesto ever and considering the lie about solvency, it is debatable whether or not it was fraud.

The Bank Guarantee may not may not have been the right call on the day, but the fact that the day arrived was a direct consequence of FF policies in their manifesto and the other parties didn't have policies that were much different.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

muppet

Quote from: armaghniac on May 27, 2015, 10:10:24 AM
Quote from: muppet on May 26, 2015, 05:31:33 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 24, 2015, 02:42:31 AM
FF didn't fool anyone, their plans were in their manifesto more or less. People believed in the money tree and voted for them.

FF introduced the Bank Guarantee. They told us in the Dáil that it was because there was a liquidity problem, not one of solvency. They were wrong and that destroyed the economy.

People voted for FF because they were more convincing in fooling voters that they could do anything for them, with no consequences. SF have replaced them in that regard. But FF gave us the Bank Guarantee. It was on no manifesto ever and considering the lie about solvency, it is debatable whether or not it was fraud.

The Bank Guarantee may not may not have been the right call on the day, but the fact that the day arrived was a direct consequence of FF policies in their manifesto and the other parties didn't have policies that were much different.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Alistair Campbell would have been proud of that one.

The decision to bet the entire economy on dodgy banks was not in any manifesto, no matter how loyal to FF you are.
MWWSI 2017

armaghniac

Quote from: muppet on May 27, 2015, 11:25:55 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 27, 2015, 10:10:24 AM
Quote from: muppet on May 26, 2015, 05:31:33 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 24, 2015, 02:42:31 AM
FF didn't fool anyone, their plans were in their manifesto more or less. People believed in the money tree and voted for them.

FF introduced the Bank Guarantee. They told us in the Dáil that it was because there was a liquidity problem, not one of solvency. They were wrong and that destroyed the economy.

People voted for FF because they were more convincing in fooling voters that they could do anything for them, with no consequences. SF have replaced them in that regard. But FF gave us the Bank Guarantee. It was on no manifesto ever and considering the lie about solvency, it is debatable whether or not it was fraud.

The Bank Guarantee may not may not have been the right call on the day, but the fact that the day arrived was a direct consequence of FF policies in their manifesto and the other parties didn't have policies that were much different.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Alistair Campbell would have been proud of that one.

The decision to bet the entire economy on dodgy banks was not in any manifesto, no matter how loyal to FF you are.

I am not a FF supporter, but if people vote for this then they can 't complain about the outcome.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

muppet

Quote from: armaghniac on May 27, 2015, 11:37:12 AM
Quote from: muppet on May 27, 2015, 11:25:55 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 27, 2015, 10:10:24 AM
Quote from: muppet on May 26, 2015, 05:31:33 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 24, 2015, 02:42:31 AM
FF didn't fool anyone, their plans were in their manifesto more or less. People believed in the money tree and voted for them.

FF introduced the Bank Guarantee. They told us in the Dáil that it was because there was a liquidity problem, not one of solvency. They were wrong and that destroyed the economy.

People voted for FF because they were more convincing in fooling voters that they could do anything for them, with no consequences. SF have replaced them in that regard. But FF gave us the Bank Guarantee. It was on no manifesto ever and considering the lie about solvency, it is debatable whether or not it was fraud.

The Bank Guarantee may not may not have been the right call on the day, but the fact that the day arrived was a direct consequence of FF policies in their manifesto and the other parties didn't have policies that were much different.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Alistair Campbell would have been proud of that one.

The decision to bet the entire economy on dodgy banks was not in any manifesto, no matter how loyal to FF you are.

I am not a FF supporter, but if people vote for this then they can 't complain about the outcome.

But Alistair, the people didn't vote for this.

Not only that, but the Dáil was told it was not a solvency issue. The entire premise of the Bank Guarantee was that it was a liquidity issue, and thus it was false.
MWWSI 2017

Hound

Quote from: muppet on May 27, 2015, 11:56:47 AM

But Alistair, the people didn't vote for this.

Not only that, but the Dáil was told it was not a solvency issue. The entire premise of the Bank Guarantee was that it was a liquidity issue, and thus it was false.
Do you think Fianna Fail deliberately misled the Dail? That they knew the banks were insolvent and thus the country becoming bankrupt was inevitable?

The guarantee seemed by most to be a good idea at the time, but it was just too wide.

Personally I don't put the blame of the guarantee (and the blanketness of it) on FF - it was certain individuals within FF, in particular Cowen and Lenihan, although it appears Cowen was most adamant that it go ahead while Lenihan had some doubts.

For me, that makes Cowen the biggest Irish villain in the history of the Irish state. It absolutely sickens me the huge money he's still receiving that is coming out of taxpayers' pockets. But blaming FF party members who had no idea what was going on that night, and blaming current party members who werent even in office in those days is too extreme. Might as well blame everyone who's ever given them a top 3 or 4 preference vote.

armaghniac

Quote from: Hound on May 27, 2015, 02:54:59 PM
Do you think Fianna Fail deliberately misled the Dail? That they knew the banks were insolvent and thus the country becoming bankrupt was inevitable?

The guarantee seemed by most to be a good idea at the time, but it was just too wide.

Personally I don't put the blame of the guarantee (and the blanketness of it) on FF - it was certain individuals within FF, in particular Cowen and Lenihan, although it appears Cowen was most adamant that it go ahead while Lenihan had some doubts.

For me, that makes Cowen the biggest Irish villain in the history of the Irish state. It absolutely sickens me the huge money he's still receiving that is coming out of taxpayers' pockets. But blaming FF party members who had no idea what was going on that night, and blaming current party members who werent even in office in those days is too extreme. Might as well blame everyone who's ever given them a top 3 or 4 preference vote.

There is two issues here.
One is the policies of FF for a period of loose regulation and disinterest in what the banks were up to, this was supported by many, but Cowen was the Minister of Finance and has to take the largest share of the blame.
Then there is a particular events of the guarantee.

But to focus on one single day is to blame the goalkeeper for the complete lack of defence or in motoring parlance to say that the driver should have swerved left instead of right when it was his decision to drive too fast that brought the need to swerve about.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

macdanger2

Yeah, like armaghniac says, there are two separate issues:

- one is the policies which lead to the bubble, the blame for which I would lay squarely at the feet of FF as a party. Others may have had similar policies but the bottom line is that FF were in govt and it was their policies which helped create the bubble. That corrupt f*cker Bertie and his cronies are 100% culpable for this

- second is the decision on the night of the bank guarantee - firstly to guarantee Anglo & NIB and secondly to guarantee unsecured bondholders (although the pressure on this second part likely came from Europe). Cowen / Lenihan took a gamble that this would work out and it backfired completely