Poppy Watch

Started by Orior, November 04, 2010, 12:36:05 PM

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Milltown Row2

There's no funding of a war machine Benny, it's a charity and that's that. The BBC and other media outlets will have their own agenda, the charity is money making machine also and they've been smart enough to push their marketing down a government and royal path.

The joke of it all is that the charity is required because the same government neglected their ex army injured soldiers.

The fact that here in the north the UDA RUC UDR used it to promote their own 'war' is the reason why nationalist living here feel a grievance towards the poppy, for me the poppy only represents the first and second World Wars, after that it's a tool by others to rub peoples noses in it, if you feel annoyed about it then you are letting that side of things win.

It's the same stuff every year.
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

6th sam

#2476
Quote from: Applesisapples on November 02, 2020, 02:28:28 PM
Quote from: Baile BrigĂ­n 2 on November 02, 2020, 12:32:07 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on November 02, 2020, 11:26:40 AM
Christ we need to get a grip here. The Poppy is only contentious here because of the army's deployment in the troubles and the fact that it is used by Unionists as a political symbol. Across the water it is just another charity that does much needed work with army veterans often neglected by the very government the fought for. Whatever issue I have with the army here, I have to recognise that in Britain they are mainly working class lads with little opportunity and it resonates with the public. As such if Paul O'Connell chooses to work for the BBC and is required to wear a poppy, what of it. He presumably needs to earn a crust. We need a slightly more mature approach.
There is plenty of criticism of poppies and poppy culture in Britain


He shouldn't have to wear a political symbol to earn a living.
Its only political here, and is widely respected by the public in Britain.

Have to say I agree with MR, I tend to associate the poppy with genuine people commemorating the world war dead, or other military deaths, and I totally support that. My bugbear however is the treatment of McClean.
Just to clarify "Apples" , you are implying that , calling out the racist abuse of James McClean, effectively endorsed by Irish people who wear a poppy on TV because they're "earning a crust" Is immature? It reminds me of "knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing".
I Totally respect the argument re British working class joining their army, and I think they are often exploited and deserve support from their government as opposed to having to depend on charity donations. I also can understand those with family connections in the army, or simply British patriots supporting a British cause, but I resent the implication that  challenging Selective poppy wearing by Irish people is immature. The BLM movement reinforces the evidence that if you call out racism , it has a positive effect . Mcclean Tbf had the courage to respectfully explain his reasons for not wearing the poppy. Any mature analysis would respect McClean's reasoning . I'd love to hear Paul O'Connell explain his rationale for wearing one (and mcclean has clearly said he supports anyone's right to do so) , but also back McClean's right not to wear one. I can not understand how the racist attitudes towards Mcclean seem to be accepted across the board, even by his fellow Irish sporting internationals. No wonder Our national "teams" rarely succeed. Maybe we could learn something from
Our British neighbours re patriotism , loyalty and support for our own?

Milltown Row2

Racists will find anything to push their agenda.

None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Rossfan

I believe ye're  soccer man Seamus Coleman laid a wreath yesterday before an Everton soccer match.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

6th sam

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 02, 2020, 03:23:09 PM
Racists will find anything to push their agenda.

Agreed, Would just like to see more people call out the racist attitude towards McClean. Interestingly I've heard more English people support him than Irish people.

BennyCake

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 02, 2020, 02:53:49 PM
There's no funding of a war machine Benny, it's a charity and that's that. The BBC and other media outlets will have their own agenda, the charity is money making machine also and they've been smart enough to push their marketing down a government and royal path.

The joke of it all is that the charity is required because the same government neglected their ex army injured soldiers.

The fact that here in the north the UDA RUC UDR used it to promote their own 'war' is the reason why nationalist living here feel a grievance towards the poppy, for me the poppy only represents the first and second World Wars, after that it's a tool by others to rub peoples noses in it, if you feel annoyed about it then you are letting that side of things win.

It's the same stuff every year.

You're right about the charity being needed because the British govt neglect their service men. The appeal is pushed in the current climate with reference to current wars/soldiers, with "our boys do such a good job for our freedom" and such balls, so people are indirectly funding military campaigns by buying a poppy, even if they protest against them.

But like I said, if all wars had stopped after ww2, all servicemen are nearly all gone. Then the Appeal would be all about commemoration for those who died, not helping ex soldiers, so thecharity would only need to cover the costs of actually making the poppies (10p each or whatever).

michaelg

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 02, 2020, 02:53:49 PM
There's no funding of a war machine Benny, it's a charity and that's that. The BBC and other media outlets will have their own agenda, the charity is money making machine also and they've been smart enough to push their marketing down a government and royal path.

The joke of it all is that the charity is required because the same government neglected their ex army injured soldiers.

The fact that here in the north the UDA RUC UDR used it to promote their own 'war' is the reason why nationalist living here feel a grievance towards the poppy, for me the poppy only represents the first and second World Wars, after that it's a tool by others to rub peoples noses in it, if you feel annoyed about it then you are letting that side of things win.

It's the same stuff every year.
Can you not see how offensive a view that is to people in the Unionist community?  I attended church and school Remebrance Services as a child which were respectful and solemn occasions.  It is also quite a conceited view to think that everyone who wears a poppy in NI does so to simply wind up Nationalists. 

michaelg

Quote from: Applesisapples on November 02, 2020, 11:26:40 AM
Christ we need to get a grip here. The Poppy is only contentious here because of the army's deployment in the troubles and the fact that it is used by Unionists as a political symbol. Across the water it is just another charity that does much needed work with army veterans often neglected by the very government the fought for. Whatever issue I have with the army here, I have to recognise that in Britain they are mainly working class lads with little opportunity and it resonates with the public. As such if Paul O'Connell chooses to work for the BBC and is required to wear a poppy, what of it. He presumably needs to earn a crust. We need a slightly more mature approach.
Why can that not also apply to working class folk in NI who have generations of family members who have also served in the military?

Milltown Row2

Quote from: michaelg on November 02, 2020, 06:50:43 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 02, 2020, 02:53:49 PM
There's no funding of a war machine Benny, it's a charity and that's that. The BBC and other media outlets will have their own agenda, the charity is , for me the poppy only represents the first and second World Wars, after that it's a tool by others to rub peoples noses in it, if you feel annoyed about it then you are letting that side of things win.

It's the same stuff every year.
Can you not see how offensive a view that is to people in the Unionist community?  I attended church and school Remebrance Services as a child which were respectful and solemn occasions.  It is also quite a conceited view to think that everyone who wears a poppy in NI does so to simply wind up Nationalists.

And for those who have genuine reasons for remembrance I've absolutely no problem, my point, that you didn't highlight in my post was the fact that the UDA/UVF hold remembrance days and remember their fallen 'hero's'  and have a speech about never surrendering.. by the same token on Easter you'll hear the same stuff up at Milltown.. (not my house  ;) )

You do understand that many nationalist have grievances with the UDR RUC and the loyalist paramilitaries and during these remembrance days it becomes a political tool. If you don't think that then I can't help you understand where I'm coming from.

None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

michaelg

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 02, 2020, 07:23:33 PM
Quote from: michaelg on November 02, 2020, 06:50:43 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 02, 2020, 02:53:49 PM
There's no funding of a war machine Benny, it's a charity and that's that. The BBC and other media outlets will have their own agenda, the charity is , for me the poppy only represents the first and second World Wars, after that it's a tool by others to rub peoples noses in it, if you feel annoyed about it then you are letting that side of things win.

It's the same stuff every year.
Can you not see how offensive a view that is to people in the Unionist community?  I attended church and school Remebrance Services as a child which were respectful and solemn occasions.  It is also quite a conceited view to think that everyone who wears a poppy in NI does so to simply wind up Nationalists.

And for those who have genuine reasons for remembrance I've absolutely no problem, my point, that you didn't highlight in my post was the fact that the UDA/UVF hold remembrance days and remember their fallen 'hero's'  and have a speech about never surrendering.. by the same token on Easter you'll hear the same stuff up at Milltown.. (not my house  ;) )

You do understand that many nationalist have grievances with the UDR RUC and the loyalist paramilitaries and during these remembrance days it becomes a political tool. If you don't think that then I can't help you understand where I'm coming from.
Fair enough.  I abhor paramilitaries from all hues and certainly have no time for the knuckledragging UDA and UVF, nor their remembrance days, which seem to be an excuse to go and bender and have a fight if the media reports that follow them are to be believed. I would not, however, lump the UDR, RUC and the loyalist paramilities together in the same way as you have.


Milltown Row2

I feel that the UDR have a lot to answer too over the years and it's been well documented, the RUC didn't cover themselves in glory either so you can understand why certain sections will have that attitude.

This is where the poppy in the north became a them and us thing, remembrance for the Army during those wars I've mentioned is ok (for me) bringing it up to date and involving the police, who by their own words were fighting criminality rather than being in a war, just loses respect in some areas
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

6th sam

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 02, 2020, 08:08:44 PM
I feel that the UDR have a lot to answer too over the years and it's been well documented, the RUC didn't cover themselves in glory either so you can understand why certain sections will have that attitude.

This is where the poppy in the north became a them and us thing, remembrance for the Army during those wars I've mentioned is ok (for me) bringing it up to date and involving the police, who by their own words were fighting criminality rather than being in a war, just loses respect in some areas

I have to say I agree with michaelg, in that it's unfair to assume that most people here wear the poppy to annoy nationalists. Though I'm sure it happens , it's not my experience, and I admire my friends who wear it as an act of respectful rememberence. That said , MR is correct in saying that despite the view of political unionism and indeed civic unionism , that the RUC and UDR are uncontroversial heroes , that is not the way they are viewed by the vast majority of nationalists. In fact I can't think of anyone from the perceived nationalist community who views them through the rose-tinted glasses unionism is wearing. We have been waiting for years for unionism to reflect on the role of UDR/RUC and admit their considerable failings , but unfortunately  it hasn't happened yet.

Main Street


Quote from: 6th sam on November 02, 2020, 09:49:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 02, 2020, 08:08:44 PM
I feel that the UDR have a lot to answer too over the years and it's been well documented, the RUC didn't cover themselves in glory either so you can understand why certain sections will have that attitude.

This is where the poppy in the north became a them and us thing, remembrance for the Army during those wars I've mentioned is ok (for me) bringing it up to date and involving the police, who by their own words were fighting criminality rather than being in a war, just loses respect in some areas

I have to say I agree with michaelg, in that it's unfair to assume that most people here wear the poppy to annoy nationalists. Though I'm sure it happens , it's not my experience, and I admire my friends who wear it as an act of respectful rememberence. That said , MR is correct in saying that despite the view of political unionism and indeed civic unionism , that the RUC and UDR are uncontroversial heroes , that is not the way they are viewed by the vast majority of nationalists. In fact I can't think of anyone from the perceived nationalist community who views them through the rose-tinted glasses unionism is wearing. We have been waiting for years for unionism to reflect on the role of UDR/RUC and admit their considerable failings , but unfortunately  it hasn't happened yet.
You're living in a cloud cuckoo land where with some expectation  "one waits for unionism to reflect on the role of UDR/RUC and admit their considerable failings". 

It is a fundamental belief among Unionists that the RUC and UDR acted honorably in defense of the realm and the union with England. There is no other option, even if one presents incontrovertible evidence of blatant collusion between  sectarian paramilitary thugs  and UDR/RUC/ British Army, it is simply not believed.

BennyCake

Oh it's believed alright. It's just not admitted, and never will be.

restorepride

Quote from: michaelg on November 02, 2020, 07:57:05 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 02, 2020, 07:23:33 PM
Quote from: michaelg on November 02, 2020, 06:50:43 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 02, 2020, 02:53:49 PM
There's no funding of a war machine Benny, it's a charity and that's that. The BBC and other media outlets will have their own agenda, the charity is , for me the poppy only represents the first and second World Wars, after that it's a tool by others to rub peoples noses in it, if you feel annoyed about it then you are letting that side of things win.

It's the same stuff every year.
Can you not see how offensive a view that is to people in the Unionist community?  I attended church and school Remebrance Services as a child which were respectful and solemn occasions.  It is also quite a conceited view to think that everyone who wears a poppy in NI does so to simply wind up Nationalists.

And for those who have genuine reasons for remembrance I've absolutely no problem, my point, that you didn't highlight in my post was the fact that the UDA/UVF hold remembrance days and remember their fallen 'hero's'  and have a speech about never surrendering.. by the same token on Easter you'll hear the same stuff up at Milltown.. (not my house  ;) )

You do understand that many nationalist have grievances with the UDR RUC and the loyalist paramilitaries and during these remembrance days it becomes a political tool. If you don't think that then I can't help you understand where I'm coming from.
Fair enough.  I abhor paramilitaries from all hues and certainly have no time for the knuckledragging UDA and UVF, nor their remembrance days, which seem to be an excuse to go and bender and have a fight if the media reports that follow them are to be believed. I would not, however, lump the UDR, RUC and the loyalist paramilities together in the same way as you have.
You have a serious amount of reading to do then!!