The IRISH RUGBY thread

[Baile Brigín 2]

One Ulsterman in the 23 but 3 Kiwis in the back line - Rugby eligibility rules are a nonsense!

More Aussies in squad than Munstermen.

But their grassroots model is to be followed?

Just because you type it doesn't make it true!

Close enough. Not one Munster or Ulster born player started and one Connaught born.

As many NZ born players in squad as Munster born and as many Aussie born as Ulster and Connaught combined.

[seafoid]

One Ulsterman in the 23 but 3 Kiwis in the back line - Rugby eligibility rules are a nonsense!

More Aussies in squad than Munstermen.

But their grassroots model is to be followed?

A complete joke the eligibility rules

Irish fella with French heritage wants to experience a new setting and is cut out/penalised for making a career/life choice

Irish fella with no French heritage does similar but isn't cut out

Aussies and Kiwi's travel the 7 seas togging out for Ireland

Thoroughly embarrassing and it makes them a hard team to like

Heritage completely irrelevant.

It's a pretty simple rule. You want to play for Ireland, then you play in Ireland, otherwise rugby in Ireland would become like soccer in Ireland. There was one exception made early on for a very special player. Such an exception is unlikely to be made again. The rule has worked extremely well in keeping the best players in the provinces.

I think it's time to take another look at the national setup. Leinster's dominance is not good for Ulster and Munster and the Ireland team is pretty mediocre at the moment too.

[Hound]

One Ulsterman in the 23 but 3 Kiwis in the back line - Rugby eligibility rules are a nonsense!

More Aussies in squad than Munstermen.

But their grassroots model is to be followed?

A complete joke the eligibility rules

Irish fella with French heritage wants to experience a new setting and is cut out/penalised for making a career/life choice

Irish fella with no French heritage does similar but isn't cut out

Aussies and Kiwi's travel the 7 seas togging out for Ireland

Thoroughly embarrassing and it makes them a hard team to like

Heritage completely irrelevant.

It's a pretty simple rule. You want to play for Ireland, then you play in Ireland, otherwise rugby in Ireland would become like soccer in Ireland. There was one exception made early on for a very special player. Such an exception is unlikely to be made again. The rule has worked extremely well in keeping the best players in the provinces.

Heritage isn't irrelevant in the context of Zebo's move, its part of the reason he went, not simply to enrich himself and secure his family's future and certainly not to turn his back on Ireland. As you pointed out an exception was made, so its not really a rule at all then if it can be worked around to suit. Covered here and elsewhere many times no doubt.

Hypothetically if Furlong made the same move would the same exception be made? Short answer, yes.

Keeping the best players in the provinces via this method, making them choose a less prosperous day job and the opportunity to grow and evolve in a new setting in order to earn representative honors is piss poor philosophy, the players aren't slaves to the Irish system, well they are if they want to play for Ireland (unless your name is Jonny Sexton).

Ironically players moving if they want and picking up new routines, skills and best practice in a new environment is likely to improve Ireland's chances, but instead the IRFU invest in a global fishing expedition

And yes Eng, NZ, etc. are just as guilty, it pains me to watch Anscombe playing for Wales, a county with a much richer rugby heritage than Ireland.

Zebo went for money. He would not have gone if Racing offered the same package as Munster. Fair play to him but he knew the downside, he also knew Irish management at the time didn't particularly fancy him.

Keeping the international players in Ireland means revenues for the game are increased, better attendances, better sponsorship, more prizemoney, more TV money. All means we can pay more players a better wage. Yes, some of the very elite can get more money abroad thanks to some billionaire owners, but them earning less here is for the greater good of the overall professional playing pool. And player welfare for those elite players is far better in Ireland than abroad, hence why Furlong turned down the big bucks. He'll lengthen his career by staying in Ireland.

Coaching is pretty good in Ireland. We've had Joe Schmidt, Rassie Erasmus, Stuart Lancaster come over. You could just as easily get stuck with a poor coach abroad. Plus players who do go abroad are  welcomed back with open arms when they return. So always an option for the player who's outside of international contention and this has worked handsomely in the past with the likes of Jennings, Cullen, Reddan, Beirne. Albeit still rare in % terms.

The IRFU have a great system. One the FAI in particular must be very jealous of. "It must be illegal" you'll even hear some soccerheads whinge 

[tiempo]

Zebo went for money.

Slinging this around is a tad disingenuous. It was already mentioned he is of French heritage and he clearly stated he wanted to experience the lifestyle. Also playing club rugby is his profession, moving for better remuneration is a career choice made by people the world over. Playing for Ireland is a representative honour and should be reserved for Irish poeple and/or people of Irish heritage, and is being denied to Irish players if they choose to experience a new setting, this is fundamentally flawed and honestly I'd like to see it challenged legally as its utter bollox.

Some exec sitting at HQ telling lads from 18-35 you're to stay put and delay any notion of spending your best years getting some fantastic life experience. All the while they push a "development" angle on overseas lads without a shred of Irish in them who can't get a game for their own county, while also bring in coaches with more than a foot in the opposition camp.

Zebo can't live in France and play for Ireland, but the England captains dad can manage Ireland.

Put it like this. If the Ireland managers job becomes available and its down to 2 candidates, Leo Cullen with a few Celtic league titles under his belt or Ronan O'Gara who has travelled the world to improve his knowledge and understanding of best practice, who are the exec's going to choose? They'll choose O'Gara because of his diverse experience, but they can't extend the same criteria to Irish players. Utter ballix and makes it very hard to support them, and I hate to say that as the fact the team is representing the whole of Ireland and not some partitioned ballix should make it an absolute beacon when it comes to feeling positive about the country.

[Hound]

Zebo went for money.

Slinging this around is a tad disingenuous. It was already mentioned he is of French heritage and he clearly stated he wanted to experience the lifestyle. Also playing club rugby is his profession, moving for better remuneration is a career choice made by people the world over. Playing for Ireland is a representative honour and should be reserved for Irish poeple and/or people of Irish heritage, and is being denied to Irish players if they choose to experience a new setting, this is fundamentally flawed and honestly I'd like to see it challenged legally as its utter bollox.

Some exec sitting at HQ telling lads from 18-35 you're to stay put and delay any notion of spending your best years getting some fantastic life experience. All the while they push a "development" angle on overseas lads without a shred of Irish in them who can't get a game for their own county, while also bring in coaches with more than a foot in the opposition camp.

Zebo can't live in France and play for Ireland, but the England captains dad can manage Ireland.

Put it like this. If the Ireland managers job becomes available and its down to 2 candidates, Leo Cullen with a few Celtic league titles under his belt or Ronan O'Gara who has travelled the world to improve his knowledge and understanding of best practice, who are the exec's going to choose? They'll choose O'Gara because of his diverse experience, but they can't extend the same criteria to Irish players. Utter ballix and makes it very hard to support them, and I hate to say that as the fact the team is representing the whole of Ireland and not some partitioned ballix should make it an absolute beacon when it comes to feeling positive about the country.

Well you don't care at all about the game in Ireland. The IRFU do, and that's why they are 100% right with their policy.
Feeling sorry for the Zebos who go off to earn a few extra quid doesn't change that.
Why on earth you'd want to turn Leinster into Shamrock Rovers and Ulster into a Linfield level of team is beyond my comprehension!

Comparing the positions of coaches, who we encourage to go abroad because we don't have a shortage of them, to players shows a complete and utter lack of understanding on your part.

[tiempo]

Zebo went for money.

Slinging this around is a tad disingenuous. It was already mentioned he is of French heritage and he clearly stated he wanted to experience the lifestyle. Also playing club rugby is his profession, moving for better remuneration is a career choice made by people the world over. Playing for Ireland is a representative honour and should be reserved for Irish poeple and/or people of Irish heritage, and is being denied to Irish players if they choose to experience a new setting, this is fundamentally flawed and honestly I'd like to see it challenged legally as its utter bollox.

Some exec sitting at HQ telling lads from 18-35 you're to stay put and delay any notion of spending your best years getting some fantastic life experience. All the while they push a "development" angle on overseas lads without a shred of Irish in them who can't get a game for their own county, while also bring in coaches with more than a foot in the opposition camp.

Zebo can't live in France and play for Ireland, but the England captains dad can manage Ireland.

Put it like this. If the Ireland managers job becomes available and its down to 2 candidates, Leo Cullen with a few Celtic league titles under his belt or Ronan O'Gara who has travelled the world to improve his knowledge and understanding of best practice, who are the exec's going to choose? They'll choose O'Gara because of his diverse experience, but they can't extend the same criteria to Irish players. Utter ballix and makes it very hard to support them, and I hate to say that as the fact the team is representing the whole of Ireland and not some partitioned ballix should make it an absolute beacon when it comes to feeling positive about the country.

Well you don't care at all about the game in Ireland. The IRFU do, and that's why they are 100% right with their policy.
Feeling sorry for the Zebos who go off to earn a few extra quid doesn't change that.
Why on earth you'd want to turn Leinster into Shamrock Rovers and Ulster into a Linfield level of team is beyond my comprehension!

Comparing the positions of coaches, who we encourage to go abroad because we don't have a shortage of them, to players shows a complete and utter lack of understanding on your part.

The provinces will always be streets ahead of that clientele. Remind me, how's allowing players to play abroad working out for the Welsh? Pretty sure they've managed to win a WC knockout game if memory serves me. Playing for a club is a professional/career choice, playing for Ireland is a representative honor, try to reconcile that fact with yourself.

[Hound]

Zebo went for money.

Slinging this around is a tad disingenuous. It was already mentioned he is of French heritage and he clearly stated he wanted to experience the lifestyle. Also playing club rugby is his profession, moving for better remuneration is a career choice made by people the world over. Playing for Ireland is a representative honour and should be reserved for Irish poeple and/or people of Irish heritage, and is being denied to Irish players if they choose to experience a new setting, this is fundamentally flawed and honestly I'd like to see it challenged legally as its utter bollox.

Some exec sitting at HQ telling lads from 18-35 you're to stay put and delay any notion of spending your best years getting some fantastic life experience. All the while they push a "development" angle on overseas lads without a shred of Irish in them who can't get a game for their own county, while also bring in coaches with more than a foot in the opposition camp.

Zebo can't live in France and play for Ireland, but the England captains dad can manage Ireland.

Put it like this. If the Ireland managers job becomes available and its down to 2 candidates, Leo Cullen with a few Celtic league titles under his belt or Ronan O'Gara who has travelled the world to improve his knowledge and understanding of best practice, who are the exec's going to choose? They'll choose O'Gara because of his diverse experience, but they can't extend the same criteria to Irish players. Utter ballix and makes it very hard to support them, and I hate to say that as the fact the team is representing the whole of Ireland and not some partitioned ballix should make it an absolute beacon when it comes to feeling positive about the country.

Well you don't care at all about the game in Ireland. The IRFU do, and that's why they are 100% right with their policy.
Feeling sorry for the Zebos who go off to earn a few extra quid doesn't change that.
Why on earth you'd want to turn Leinster into Shamrock Rovers and Ulster into a Linfield level of team is beyond my comprehension!

Comparing the positions of coaches, who we encourage to go abroad because we don't have a shortage of them, to players shows a complete and utter lack of understanding on your part.

The provinces will always be streets ahead of that clientele. Remind me, how's allowing players to play abroad working out for the Welsh? Pretty sure they've managed to win a WC knockout game if memory serves me. Playing for a club is a professional/career choice, playing for Ireland is a representative honor, try to reconcile that fact with yourself.

Good comparison. WRU and SRU teams generally well below the Irish provinces. They really wish they could impose the same restrictions the IRFU do.

[Taylor]

If you have a rule at least be consistent.

Would love to hear Hounds view on Sexton when he played in France and still played for Ireland?

Sort of blows the IRFU and their strategy out of the water

[Baile Brigín 2]

Zebo went for money.

Slinging this around is a tad disingenuous. It was already mentioned he is of French heritage and he clearly stated he wanted to experience the lifestyle. Also playing club rugby is his profession, moving for better remuneration is a career choice made by people the world over. Playing for Ireland is a representative honour and should be reserved for Irish poeple and/or people of Irish heritage, and is being denied to Irish players if they choose to experience a new setting, this is fundamentally flawed and honestly I'd like to see it challenged legally as its utter bollox.

Some exec sitting at HQ telling lads from 18-35 you're to stay put and delay any notion of spending your best years getting some fantastic life experience. All the while they push a "development" angle on overseas lads without a shred of Irish in them who can't get a game for their own county, while also bring in coaches with more than a foot in the opposition camp.

Zebo can't live in France and play for Ireland, but the England captains dad can manage Ireland.

Put it like this. If the Ireland managers job becomes available and its down to 2 candidates, Leo Cullen with a few Celtic league titles under his belt or Ronan O'Gara who has travelled the world to improve his knowledge and understanding of best practice, who are the exec's going to choose? They'll choose O'Gara because of his diverse experience, but they can't extend the same criteria to Irish players. Utter ballix and makes it very hard to support them, and I hate to say that as the fact the team is representing the whole of Ireland and not some partitioned ballix should make it an absolute beacon when it comes to feeling positive about the country.

Well you don't care at all about the game in Ireland. The IRFU do, and that's why they are 100% right with their policy.
Feeling sorry for the Zebos who go off to earn a few extra quid doesn't change that.
Why on earth you'd want to turn Leinster into Shamrock Rovers and Ulster into a Linfield level of team is beyond my comprehension!

Comparing the positions of coaches, who we encourage to go abroad because we don't have a shortage of them, to players shows a complete and utter lack of understanding on your part.

Nobody is saying that. But using the national team and the sarary that does with to push down wages isn't even working. And it unquestionably weakens the national side. At some point maeket forces have to come into play.

What you are arguing is to improve the LoI or IL you can only play for the national sides if you play domestically. That's fine - it will clearly lift the domestic game. But it will destroy the national sides.

But what it absolutely isn't is a model for other sports to follow.

[seafoid]

One Ulsterman in the 23 but 3 Kiwis in the back line - Rugby eligibility rules are a nonsense!

More Aussies in squad than Munstermen.

But their grassroots model is to be followed?

A complete joke the eligibility rules

Irish fella with French heritage wants to experience a new setting and is cut out/penalised for making a career/life choice

Irish fella with no French heritage does similar but isn't cut out

Aussies and Kiwi's travel the 7 seas togging out for Ireland

Thoroughly embarrassing and it makes them a hard team to like

Heritage completely irrelevant.

It's a pretty simple rule. You want to play for Ireland, then you play in Ireland, otherwise rugby in Ireland would become like soccer in Ireland. There was one exception made early on for a very special player. Such an exception is unlikely to be made again. The rule has worked extremely well in keeping the best players in the provinces.

Heritage isn't irrelevant in the context of Zebo's move, its part of the reason he went, not simply to enrich himself and secure his family's future and certainly not to turn his back on Ireland. As you pointed out an exception was made, so its not really a rule at all then if it can be worked around to suit. Covered here and elsewhere many times no doubt.

Hypothetically if Furlong made the same move would the same exception be made? Short answer, yes.

Keeping the best players in the provinces via this method, making them choose a less prosperous day job and the opportunity to grow and evolve in a new setting in order to earn representative honors is piss poor philosophy, the players aren't slaves to the Irish system, well they are if they want to play for Ireland (unless your name is Jonny Sexton).

Ironically players moving if they want and picking up new routines, skills and best practice in a new environment is likely to improve Ireland's chances, but instead the IRFU invest in a global fishing expedition

And yes Eng, NZ, etc. are just as guilty, it pains me to watch Anscombe playing for Wales, a county with a much richer rugby heritage than Ireland.

Zebo went for money. He would not have gone if Racing offered the same package as Munster. Fair play to him but he knew the downside, he also knew Irish management at the time didn't particularly fancy him.

Keeping the international players in Ireland means revenues for the game are increased, better attendances, better sponsorship, more prizemoney, more TV money. All means we can pay more players a better wage. Yes, some of the very elite can get more money abroad thanks to some billionaire owners, but them earning less here is for the greater good of the overall professional playing pool. And player welfare for those elite players is far better in Ireland than abroad, hence why Furlong turned down the big bucks. He'll lengthen his career by staying in Ireland.

Coaching is pretty good in Ireland. We've had Joe Schmidt, Rassie Erasmus, Stuart Lancaster come over. You could just as easily get stuck with a poor coach abroad. Plus players who do go abroad are  welcomed back with open arms when they return. So always an option for the player who's outside of international contention and this has worked handsomely in the past with the likes of Jennings, Cullen, Reddan, Beirne. Albeit still rare in % terms.

The IRFU have a great system. One the FAI in particular must be very jealous of. "It must be illegal" you'll even hear some soccerheads whinge 

They don't have a great system. Not any more. The last time an Irish team won the ex Heineken Cup was 2018.
We still haven't won a RWC quarter final.

Justin Marshall after NZ beat Ireland in 2019 :

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/justin-marshall-ireland-s-great-gameplan-became-predictable-1.4066202

"I didn't think they'd evolved," he said. "I think very much like Wales were tactically, they had a great gameplan that they believed in but it is predictable and it gets analysed.
"They have great players that could implement that gameplan, but when you look at Ireland and where they got to, successfully beating the All Blacks, I felt they needed to create something that the rest of the world hadn't seen and they didn't.
"They came out and played the same gameplan they had been playing, the All Blacks came out and analysed it. They've been beaten by it before, and they were aware of what Ireland would bring. and they didn't bring anything different.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/irish-rugby-must-look-to-gaa-s-top-talent-for-a-brighter-future-1.4056933

"I don't mean any disrespect in saying this but Ireland's experience was not to win [quarter-finals],"
Hansen explained. "Just because you've played for a long time, you might have learned things you don't want to learn or you might have learned nothing along the way."

[DuffleKing]

The narrative this week off the back of the Japan game has been mental in the press. You'd expect the last decade of this nonsense to in some way penetrate the consciousness of journalists and ex players but no, this is a new and world class Ireland suddenly with all the same players and coaching staff that delivered the most recent cycle of hype and underperformance.

That clown Thornley has been confidently predicting a victory over the All Blacks this weekend and there's any number of observers excitedly anticipating a brilliant game and that Ireland will "go close".

What planet are these people on?

[JoG2]

The narrative this week off the back of the Japan game has been mental in the press. You'd expect the last decade of this nonsense to in some way penetrate the consciousness of journalists and ex players but no, this is a new and world class Ireland suddenly with all the same players and coaching staff that delivered the most recent cycle of hype and underperformance.

That clown Thornley has been confidently predicting a victory over the All Blacks this weekend and there's any number of observers excitedly anticipating a brilliant game and that Ireland will "go close".

What planet are these people on?

I've always enjoyed the rugby, but the interest has definitely waned in the last while. 30 phases of making a yard gain mixed with box kicking, and I suppose the sheer brutality of the continuous hits.
Will watch the game at the weekend but I see no way of us getting close to the All Black's tbh.

[tiempo]

Good comparison. WRU and SRU teams generally well below the Irish provinces. They really wish they could impose the same restrictions the IRFU do.

Again, herein lies the issue with the approach taken. These are professional rugby players being denied representative honours by HQ Exec's who then go fishing to bring lads from overseas with no connection to Ireland with the carrot of representative honours. The whole thing stinks and shows a complete lack of faith in Irish players and respect for the value of the jersey.

For me a big part of the reason there is a ceiling to where Ireland can go (as borne out by their historical underachievement) is that imposing restrictions does not support an organic evolution of the game, culture, coaching and more importantly player skill sets.

[tiempo]

The narrative this week off the back of the Japan game has been mental in the press. You'd expect the last decade of this nonsense to in some way penetrate the consciousness of journalists and ex players but no, this is a new and world class Ireland suddenly with all the same players and coaching staff that delivered the most recent cycle of hype and underperformance.

That clown Thornley has been confidently predicting a victory over the All Blacks this weekend and there's any number of observers excitedly anticipating a brilliant game and that Ireland will "go close".

What planet are these people on?

Yep, ROG has said its a 50:50 game based on the performance v Japan. Cloud cuckoo land.

Don't get me wrong would be nice to seem them do something but a lot more likely to get wiped.

[The Wedger]

That clown Thornley has been confidently predicting a victory over the All Blacks this weekend and there's any number of observers excitedly anticipating a brilliant game and that Ireland will "go close".

What planet are these people on?

D4 is in mourning at the passing of Sean FitzPatrick, it is Gerry's duty to cheer them up!