The IRISH RUGBY thread

[LCohen]

Rugby players have to be based in Ireland to win a cap , soccar players don't- so residency rule has a greater impact

International sport  is representative, you are representing your country, either by birth or diaspora . If a person has a passport and decides that he feels Irish , We can't get into questioning that. However playing for a country on the basis of residency , without a passport seems farcical to me. I can understand how a NZ player just below All black standard , jumps at a contract to come to Europe to play club rugby , and if he's good enough to play international for his new country , it will be of financial benefit, but that doesn't make him Irish. "What makes you Irish , Todd", ....." well to be honest, I couldn't get a contract with Toulouse to make me French"
This is no disrespect to those that choose this path, they're playing within the rules, but it just seems farcical to me.

You wouldn't have one of those boys who objected to John Barnes playing for England would you? They used to make quite a noise

[6th sam]

Rugby players have to be based in Ireland to win a cap , soccar players don't- so residency rule has a greater impact

International sport  is representative, you are representing your country, either by birth or diaspora . If a person has a passport and decides that he feels Irish , We can't get into questioning that. However playing for a country on the basis of residency , without a passport seems farcical to me. I can understand how a NZ player just below All black standard , jumps at a contract to come to Europe to play club rugby , and if he's good enough to play international for his new country , it will be of financial benefit, but that doesn't make him Irish. "What makes you Irish , Todd", ....." well to be honest, I couldn't get a contract with Toulouse to make me French"
This is no disrespect to those that choose this path, they're playing within the rules, but it just seems farcical to me.

You wouldn't have one of those boys who objected to John Barnes playing for England would you? They used to make quite a noise

No I wouldn't , Barnes moved to England when he was a 12 year old child. He has a clear affiliation to England . Many who questioned Barnes were doing so for racist reasons. Players in their late 20s , moving half way round the world for career development,( and fair play to them) and then changing their international allegiance to a country to which they have no patriotic connection doesn't sit easy with me. Ironically someone like Simon Zebo who makes a career development decision to play overseas , then can't play for his country ( i stand corrected if that is not the case, but that's my understanding of it)

[Hound]

Rugby players have to be based in Ireland to win a cap , soccar players don't- so residency rule has a greater impact

International sport  is representative, you are representing your country, either by birth or diaspora . If a person has a passport and decides that he feels Irish , We can't get into questioning that. However playing for a country on the basis of residency , without a passport seems farcical to me. I can understand how a NZ player just below All black standard , jumps at a contract to come to Europe to play club rugby , and if he's good enough to play international for his new country , it will be of financial benefit, but that doesn't make him Irish. "What makes you Irish , Todd", ....." well to be honest, I couldn't get a contract with Toulouse to make me French"
This is no disrespect to those that choose this path, they're playing within the rules, but it just seems farcical to me.

You wouldn't have one of those boys who objected to John Barnes playing for England would you? They used to make quite a noise

No I wouldn't , Barnes moved to England when he was a 12 year old child. He has a clear affiliation to England . Many who questioned Barnes were doing so for racist reasons. Players in their late 20s , moving half way round the world for career development,( and fair play to them) and then changing their international allegiance to a country to which they have no patriotic connection doesn't sit easy with me. Ironically someone like Simon Zebo who makes a career development decision to play overseas , then can't play for his country ( i stand corrected if that is not the case, but that's my understanding of it)

Zebo can play for Ireland.

IRFU choose not to pick him to encourage the best players to stay in Ireland to support the Irish game.

The 3 year residency rule (now a 5 year residency rule) is a global Rugby Union rule, not an Irish rule.

[LCohen]

Rugby players have to be based in Ireland to win a cap , soccar players don't- so residency rule has a greater impact

International sport  is representative, you are representing your country, either by birth or diaspora . If a person has a passport and decides that he feels Irish , We can't get into questioning that. However playing for a country on the basis of residency , without a passport seems farcical to me. I can understand how a NZ player just below All black standard , jumps at a contract to come to Europe to play club rugby , and if he's good enough to play international for his new country , it will be of financial benefit, but that doesn't make him Irish. "What makes you Irish , Todd", ....." well to be honest, I couldn't get a contract with Toulouse to make me French"
This is no disrespect to those that choose this path, they're playing within the rules, but it just seems farcical to me.

You wouldn't have one of those boys who objected to John Barnes playing for England would you? They used to make quite a noise

No I wouldn't , Barnes moved to England when he was a 12 year old child. He has a clear affiliation to England . Many who questioned Barnes were doing so for racist reasons. Players in their late 20s , moving half way round the world for career development,( and fair play to them) and then changing their international allegiance to a country to which they have no patriotic connection doesn't sit easy with me. Ironically someone like Simon Zebo who makes a career development decision to play overseas , then can't play for his country ( i stand corrected if that is not the case, but that's my understanding of it)

You are correct. Zebo is not currently eligible for an Irish contract.

You can question the residency as much as you like but there has to be a residency rule. It's a question of where you draw the line. Unquestionably players arriving by that route have demonstrated more commitment that some who has a granny from Mayo and no other connection to Ireland and didn't consider themselves Irish until they bumped in to Maurice Setters

[Hound]

Rugby players have to be based in Ireland to win a cap , soccar players don't- so residency rule has a greater impact

International sport  is representative, you are representing your country, either by birth or diaspora . If a person has a passport and decides that he feels Irish , We can't get into questioning that. However playing for a country on the basis of residency , without a passport seems farcical to me. I can understand how a NZ player just below All black standard , jumps at a contract to come to Europe to play club rugby , and if he's good enough to play international for his new country , it will be of financial benefit, but that doesn't make him Irish. "What makes you Irish , Todd", ....." well to be honest, I couldn't get a contract with Toulouse to make me French"
This is no disrespect to those that choose this path, they're playing within the rules, but it just seems farcical to me.

You wouldn't have one of those boys who objected to John Barnes playing for England would you? They used to make quite a noise

No I wouldn't , Barnes moved to England when he was a 12 year old child. He has a clear affiliation to England . Many who questioned Barnes were doing so for racist reasons. Players in their late 20s , moving half way round the world for career development,( and fair play to them) and then changing their international allegiance to a country to which they have no patriotic connection doesn't sit easy with me. Ironically someone like Simon Zebo who makes a career development decision to play overseas , then can't play for his country ( i stand corrected if that is not the case, but that's my understanding of it)

You are correct. Zebo is not currently eligible for an Irish contract.

You can question the residency as much as you like but there has to be a residency rule. It's a question of where you draw the line. Unquestionably players arriving by that route have demonstrated more commitment that some who has a granny from Mayo and no other connection to Ireland and didn't consider themselves Irish until they bumped in to Maurice Setters

The IRFU could absolutely pick Zebo to play for Ireland.
There is no rule anywhere against it. But there is a policy that they don't pick players who are based overseas. They made an exception for Sexton. Doubtful they'd make a similar exception in the future. 

[6th sam]

Rugby players have to be based in Ireland to win a cap , soccar players don't- so residency rule has a greater impact

International sport  is representative, you are representing your country, either by birth or diaspora . If a person has a passport and decides that he feels Irish , We can't get into questioning that. However playing for a country on the basis of residency , without a passport seems farcical to me. I can understand how a NZ player just below All black standard , jumps at a contract to come to Europe to play club rugby , and if he's good enough to play international for his new country , it will be of financial benefit, but that doesn't make him Irish. "What makes you Irish , Todd", ....." well to be honest, I couldn't get a contract with Toulouse to make me French"
This is no disrespect to those that choose this path, they're playing within the rules, but it just seems farcical to me.

You wouldn't have one of those boys who objected to John Barnes playing for England would you? They used to make quite a noise

No I wouldn't , Barnes moved to England when he was a 12 year old child. He has a clear affiliation to England . Many who questioned Barnes were doing so for racist reasons. Players in their late 20s , moving half way round the world for career development,( and fair play to them) and then changing their international allegiance to a country to which they have no patriotic connection doesn't sit easy with me. Ironically someone like Simon Zebo who makes a career development decision to play overseas , then can't play for his country ( i stand corrected if that is not the case, but that's my understanding of it)

Zebo can play for Ireland.

IRFU choose not to pick him to encourage the best players to stay in Ireland to support the Irish game.

The 3 year residency rule (now a 5 year residency rule) is a global Rugby Union rule, not an Irish rule.

Totally accept that it's an international rule, and I respect the reasons behind IRFU wanting to keep players at home. However, the irony of Irish players being penalised for travelling, whilst non-Irish players effectively take their place , or stifle the development of an up and coming , let's say Ulster player , who can't get into the international set up as a couple of travelling South Africans or Kiwis knock them down the pecking order.
Ps I welcome these travelling players into our club game as it's a "non-representative" professional set up that can welcome anyone regardless of provinciality or nationality. But international representation should be on the basis of a patriotic connection, as opposed to career development . 
Fair play to the likes of Aki and Lowe who give their all in an Irish jersey , and makes us a better team, but the overall benefit of the residency rule for the game has to be critically analysed

[square_ball]

I'm not a fan of the residency rule. What if Lowe then transfers to an English club is he no longer 'Irish'?

[LCohen]

I'm not a fan of the residency rule. What if Lowe then transfers to an English club is he no longer 'Irish'?

No

[LCohen]

Rugby players have to be based in Ireland to win a cap , soccar players don't- so residency rule has a greater impact

International sport  is representative, you are representing your country, either by birth or diaspora . If a person has a passport and decides that he feels Irish , We can't get into questioning that. However playing for a country on the basis of residency , without a passport seems farcical to me. I can understand how a NZ player just below All black standard , jumps at a contract to come to Europe to play club rugby , and if he's good enough to play international for his new country , it will be of financial benefit, but that doesn't make him Irish. "What makes you Irish , Todd", ....." well to be honest, I couldn't get a contract with Toulouse to make me French"
This is no disrespect to those that choose this path, they're playing within the rules, but it just seems farcical to me.

You wouldn't have one of those boys who objected to John Barnes playing for England would you? They used to make quite a noise

No I wouldn't , Barnes moved to England when he was a 12 year old child. He has a clear affiliation to England . Many who questioned Barnes were doing so for racist reasons. Players in their late 20s , moving half way round the world for career development,( and fair play to them) and then changing their international allegiance to a country to which they have no patriotic connection doesn't sit easy with me. Ironically someone like Simon Zebo who makes a career development decision to play overseas , then can't play for his country ( i stand corrected if that is not the case, but that's my understanding of it)

You are correct. Zebo is not currently eligible for an Irish contract.

You can question the residency as much as you like but there has to be a residency rule. It's a question of where you draw the line. Unquestionably players arriving by that route have demonstrated more commitment that some who has a granny from Mayo and no other connection to Ireland and didn't consider themselves Irish until they bumped in to Maurice Setters

The IRFU could absolutely pick Zebo to play for Ireland.
There is no rule anywhere against it. But there is a policy that they don't pick players who are based overseas. They made an exception for Sexton. Doubtful they'd make a similar exception in the future.

My understanding is that they won't enter a contract with a player outside Ireland. The sexton experience will not be repeated

[LCohen]

Rugby players have to be based in Ireland to win a cap , soccar players don't- so residency rule has a greater impact

International sport  is representative, you are representing your country, either by birth or diaspora . If a person has a passport and decides that he feels Irish , We can't get into questioning that. However playing for a country on the basis of residency , without a passport seems farcical to me. I can understand how a NZ player just below All black standard , jumps at a contract to come to Europe to play club rugby , and if he's good enough to play international for his new country , it will be of financial benefit, but that doesn't make him Irish. "What makes you Irish , Todd", ....." well to be honest, I couldn't get a contract with Toulouse to make me French"
This is no disrespect to those that choose this path, they're playing within the rules, but it just seems farcical to me.

You wouldn't have one of those boys who objected to John Barnes playing for England would you? They used to make quite a noise

No I wouldn't , Barnes moved to England when he was a 12 year old child. He has a clear affiliation to England . Many who questioned Barnes were doing so for racist reasons. Players in their late 20s , moving half way round the world for career development,( and fair play to them) and then changing their international allegiance to a country to which they have no patriotic connection doesn't sit easy with me. Ironically someone like Simon Zebo who makes a career development decision to play overseas , then can't play for his country ( i stand corrected if that is not the case, but that's my understanding of it)

Zebo can play for Ireland.

IRFU choose not to pick him to encourage the best players to stay in Ireland to support the Irish game.

The 3 year residency rule (now a 5 year residency rule) is a global Rugby Union rule, not an Irish rule.

Totally accept that it's an international rule, and I respect the reasons behind IRFU wanting to keep players at home, but the irony of Irish players being penalised for travelling, whilst non-Irish players effectively take their place , or stifle the development of an up and coming , let's say Ulster player who can't get into the international set up as a couple of travelling South Africans or Kiwis knock them down the pecking order.
Ps I welcome these travelling players into our club game as it's a "non-representative" professional set up that can welcome anyone regardless of provinciality or nationality. But international representation should be on the basis of a patriotic connection, as opposed to career development .

The Brent Cockbain example was mentioned earlier. How are you with it?

[dublin7]

Rugby players have to be based in Ireland to win a cap , soccar players don't- so residency rule has a greater impact

International sport  is representative, you are representing your country, either by birth or diaspora . If a person has a passport and decides that he feels Irish , We can't get into questioning that. However playing for a country on the basis of residency , without a passport seems farcical to me. I can understand how a NZ player just below All black standard , jumps at a contract to come to Europe to play club rugby , and if he's good enough to play international for his new country , it will be of financial benefit, but that doesn't make him Irish. "What makes you Irish , Todd", ....." well to be honest, I couldn't get a contract with Toulouse to make me French"
This is no disrespect to those that choose this path, they're playing within the rules, but it just seems farcical to me.

You wouldn't have one of those boys who objected to John Barnes playing for England would you? They used to make quite a noise

No I wouldn't , Barnes moved to England when he was a 12 year old child. He has a clear affiliation to England . Many who questioned Barnes were doing so for racist reasons. Players in their late 20s , moving half way round the world for career development,( and fair play to them) and then changing their international allegiance to a country to which they have no patriotic connection doesn't sit easy with me. Ironically someone like Simon Zebo who makes a career development decision to play overseas , then can't play for his country ( i stand corrected if that is not the case, but that's my understanding of it)

Zebo can play for Ireland.

IRFU choose not to pick him to encourage the best players to stay in Ireland to support the Irish game.

The 3 year residency rule (now a 5 year residency rule) is a global Rugby Union rule, not an Irish rule.

Totally accept that it's an international rule, and I respect the reasons behind IRFU wanting to keep players at home, but the irony of Irish players being penalised for travelling, whilst non-Irish players effectively take their place , or stifle the development of an up and coming , let's say Ulster player who can't get into the international set up as a couple of travelling South Africans or Kiwis knock them down the pecking order.
Ps I welcome these travelling players into our club game as it's a "non-representative" professional set up that can welcome anyone regardless of provinciality or nationality.

The IRFU are very specific about what players they allowed the provinces sign as project players or non Irish qualified. They have also forced Irish provinces to release foreign players or stopped a province signing them as they felt they could stop the progress of Irish lads.

Leinster are one of the top sides in Europe and is nearly all home grown players. The systems the IRFU have in place help them find the best young players all over the country. The FAI don't have anything even close to the same structures in place. Allowing clubs here to send young lads to the UK at 15/16 and hope the clubs over there can turn them into footballers is their strategy

[Hound]

Rugby players have to be based in Ireland to win a cap , soccar players don't- so residency rule has a greater impact

International sport  is representative, you are representing your country, either by birth or diaspora . If a person has a passport and decides that he feels Irish , We can't get into questioning that. However playing for a country on the basis of residency , without a passport seems farcical to me. I can understand how a NZ player just below All black standard , jumps at a contract to come to Europe to play club rugby , and if he's good enough to play international for his new country , it will be of financial benefit, but that doesn't make him Irish. "What makes you Irish , Todd", ....." well to be honest, I couldn't get a contract with Toulouse to make me French"
This is no disrespect to those that choose this path, they're playing within the rules, but it just seems farcical to me.

You wouldn't have one of those boys who objected to John Barnes playing for England would you? They used to make quite a noise

No I wouldn't , Barnes moved to England when he was a 12 year old child. He has a clear affiliation to England . Many who questioned Barnes were doing so for racist reasons. Players in their late 20s , moving half way round the world for career development,( and fair play to them) and then changing their international allegiance to a country to which they have no patriotic connection doesn't sit easy with me. Ironically someone like Simon Zebo who makes a career development decision to play overseas , then can't play for his country ( i stand corrected if that is not the case, but that's my understanding of it)

You are correct. Zebo is not currently eligible for an Irish contract.

You can question the residency as much as you like but there has to be a residency rule. It's a question of where you draw the line. Unquestionably players arriving by that route have demonstrated more commitment that some who has a granny from Mayo and no other connection to Ireland and didn't consider themselves Irish until they bumped in to Maurice Setters

The IRFU could absolutely pick Zebo to play for Ireland.
There is no rule anywhere against it. But there is a policy that they don't pick players who are based overseas. They made an exception for Sexton. Doubtful they'd make a similar exception in the future.

My understanding is that they won't enter a contract with a player outside Ireland. The sexton experience will not be repeated

That's true, but it's a policy not a rule. Zebo is eligible to play for Ireland, they just won't pick him or anyone else who doesn't play here.

[dublin7]

I've no doubt James McLean declared for the ROI for personal reasons and as you say no one would question his commitment or passion for the ROI team.

It's the likes of Alex Bruce that people like myself are referencing. He declared for the ROI and when he wasn't getting picked he switched allegiance to NI. For several players switching allegiances between NI/ROI or declaring for a country they weren't born in is simply a business decision they think will benefit their career.

https://www.the42.ie/stephen-mallon-switches-allegiance-to-northern-ireland-5192255-Sep2020/

Choosing your international team for football reasons is farcical . and goes against representative patriotism . Just to clarify , dublin7, you're not implying that McClean declared for a country he wasn't born in?

You criticise foreign rugby players for choosing to play international rugby for Ireland as a career option but don't consider the same applies to soccer? Footballers changing nationality for patriotic reasons are extremely rare and actually funny. How long after becoming first team regulars and premier league footballers do you think Declan Rice and Jack Grealish discovered their English patriotism???

I don't know what your point is regarding James McLean. No one has claimed he declared for Republic of Ireland for financial benefits or career prospects.

[6th sam]

I've no doubt James McLean declared for the ROI for personal reasons and as you say no one would question his commitment or passion for the ROI team.

It's the likes of Alex Bruce that people like myself are referencing. He declared for the ROI and when he wasn't getting picked he switched allegiance to NI. For several players switching allegiances between NI/ROI or declaring for a country they weren't born in is simply a business decision they think will benefit their career.

https://www.the42.ie/stephen-mallon-switches-allegiance-to-northern-ireland-5192255-Sep2020/

Choosing your international team for football reasons is farcical . and goes against representative patriotism . Just to clarify , dublin7, you're not implying that McClean declared for a country he wasn't born in?

You criticise foreign rugby players for choosing to play international rugby for Ireland as a career option but don't consider the same applies to soccer? Footballers changing nationality for patriotic reasons are extremely rare and actually funny. How long after becoming first team regulars and premier league footballers do you think Declan Rice and Jack Grealish discovered their English patriotism???

I don't know what your point is regarding James McLean. No one has claimed he declared for Republic of Ireland for financial benefits or career prospects.

Really, I'm criticising the rules not the players. Allowing players to choose their nationality for career development ,whether for soccer or rugby , makes a farce of international sport.

[LCohen]

I've no doubt James McLean declared for the ROI for personal reasons and as you say no one would question his commitment or passion for the ROI team.

It's the likes of Alex Bruce that people like myself are referencing. He declared for the ROI and when he wasn't getting picked he switched allegiance to NI. For several players switching allegiances between NI/ROI or declaring for a country they weren't born in is simply a business decision they think will benefit their career.

https://www.the42.ie/stephen-mallon-switches-allegiance-to-northern-ireland-5192255-Sep2020/

Choosing your international team for football reasons is farcical . and goes against representative patriotism . Just to clarify , dublin7, you're not implying that McClean declared for a country he wasn't born in?

You criticise foreign rugby players for choosing to play international rugby for Ireland as a career option but don't consider the same applies to soccer? Footballers changing nationality for patriotic reasons are extremely rare and actually funny. How long after becoming first team regulars and premier league footballers do you think Declan Rice and Jack Grealish discovered their English patriotism???

I don't know what your point is regarding James McLean. No one has claimed he declared for Republic of Ireland for financial benefits or career prospects.

Really, I'm criticising the rules not the players. Allowing players to choose their nationality for career development ,whether for soccer or rugby , makes a farce of international sport.

Do think that by the standards of what you hold dear in terms of patriotism that the RoI soccer team is now and always has been, a legitimate team? Sure it wouldn't be as Irish as the Rugby team?