The IRISH RUGBY thread

[magpie seanie]

Both should not be included in central contracts given their ages and the need to have a fully developed team for the World Cup in Japan in 2019.  At best both could be part players rather than first choice at the age of 36 in an increasing physical and fast paced game.  The usual Leinster bias is occurring with Heaslip being contracted.

There's an awful lot of old players who are currently regulars in our side. They'll be gone or their performance levels greatly diminished yet St Joe seems completely averse to introducing young players.

Christ on a bike - McGrath Furlong VDF Scannell Dillane Henderson Leavy Conan Carberry Ringrose Henshaw Marmion Other Scannell would all politely disagree.

Adam Byrne was given his Leinster debut as an 18 year old by JS he will be capped in the summer as will Darren Sweetman and Rory O'Loughlin.

Also there is no comparison between Ryan and Heaslip, just compare injury records and the fact Heaslip has been one of Ireland's top performers for the last 10 years. Ryan had a great 6 nations but doesn't mean he deserves a central contract.

With respect look at the game time several of those guys got in comparison to Best, Toner, SOB, Heaslip, Sexton and Kearney - all first choice starters who must have major question marks over where they'll be for WC 2019. Tommy Bowe would have played a lot if he was fit and he comes into that category.

Who would you pick ahead of Best, who in my opinion is a proven leader and an exceptional rugby player? Heaslip is a machine, one of first names on the team sheet. Toner, name me a better line-out operator in Ireland? Sexton is one of our few world class players but Jackson has got a lot of game time. Kearney had a good 6 nations but yea don't rate and would put a black mark against JS over that continued selection. SOB must would have brought back into the team, prior to this years 6 nations operating at a different level.

A lot the Leinster faces people don't like but apart from Kearney they are all worth their place.

My point is that while some are still the number 1 option at their position (Best and Sexton) it's possible we could have none of them for the world cup in 2019 and some of their good understudies are not getting brought through. Those guys are also allowed to have bad games, sometimes a few in a row, without fear of getting dropped. "Joe trusts them". I honestly think Kearney wouldn't make the Leinster team if everyone was fit. Toner is 6'10" which is great for lineouts but not if we're throwing to SOB who's lined up against Alun Wynn Jones. If we're serious about being a top 4 nation and not satisfied with a moral victory here and there we need to be more ruthless, pick guys on form rather than reputation. The fact we haven't made a WC semi final in a competition with at most 9 serious teams is a complete embarrassment.

[Dinny Breen]

Both should not be included in central contracts given their ages and the need to have a fully developed team for the World Cup in Japan in 2019.  At best both could be part players rather than first choice at the age of 36 in an increasing physical and fast paced game.  The usual Leinster bias is occurring with Heaslip being contracted.

There's an awful lot of old players who are currently regulars in our side. They'll be gone or their performance levels greatly diminished yet St Joe seems completely averse to introducing young players.

Christ on a bike - McGrath Furlong VDF Scannell Dillane Henderson Leavy Conan Carberry Ringrose Henshaw Marmion Other Scannell would all politely disagree.

Adam Byrne was given his Leinster debut as an 18 year old by JS he will be capped in the summer as will Darren Sweetman and Rory O'Loughlin.

Also there is no comparison between Ryan and Heaslip, just compare injury records and the fact Heaslip has been one of Ireland's top performers for the last 10 years. Ryan had a great 6 nations but doesn't mean he deserves a central contract.

With respect look at the game time several of those guys got in comparison to Best, Toner, SOB, Heaslip, Sexton and Kearney - all first choice starters who must have major question marks over where they'll be for WC 2019. Tommy Bowe would have played a lot if he was fit and he comes into that category.

Who would you pick ahead of Best, who in my opinion is a proven leader and an exceptional rugby player? Heaslip is a machine, one of first names on the team sheet. Toner, name me a better line-out operator in Ireland? Sexton is one of our few world class players but Jackson has got a lot of game time. Kearney had a good 6 nations but yea don't rate and would put a black mark against JS over that continued selection. SOB must would have brought back into the team, prior to this years 6 nations operating at a different level.

A lot the Leinster faces people don't like but apart from Kearney they are all worth their place.

My point is that while some are still the number 1 option at their position (Best and Sexton) it's possible we could have none of them for the world cup in 2019 and some of their good understudies are not getting brought through. Those guys are also allowed to have bad games, sometimes a few in a row, without fear of getting dropped. "Joe trusts them". I honestly think Kearney wouldn't make the Leinster team if everyone was fit. Toner is 6'10" which is great for lineouts but not if we're throwing to SOB who's lined up against Alun Wynn Jones. If we're serious about being a top 4 nation and not satisfied with a moral victory here and there we need to be more ruthless, pick guys on form rather than reputation. The fact we haven't made a WC semi final in a competition with at most 9 serious teams is a complete embarrassment.

The language of the knee-jerk sports fan, Seanie under the anger their is normally some sense but the World Cup is every four years, professional sports is a results driven business, the World Cup while nice is not the priority of the Irish National team coach, The 6 nations is and in 4 years JS has delivered two titles and was runner up this year. Irish sports fans have this strange sense of entitlement as if somehow demanding last 4 in the World Cup, as if by placing such demands, we will raise standards. Our ranking prior to each tournament

2015 4th
2011 6th
2007 6th
2003 6th

So last WC was perhaps the only year where we under achieved but we went into that Q/F without Payne, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Mahony and O'Connell ripped his hamstring off the bone. That was an awful lot of leadership and no team could recover from that and yes the players that did remain played poorly but Argentina made them look poor they were that good.

JS has give 19 new caps since last World Cup, in contrast England 12, Scotland 7 and Wales 3. Form will get you into the squad but it's what you do when you get in that matters. His favourite word is clarity, he will ensure each player knows his role and responsibilities within his systems attack and defence, set-piece, kick and chase and counter-attack, he will put more emphasis on what you do without the ball than what you do with it.

JS will give opportunities this summer, it's up to the players to demonstrate that they have the ability to be a JS player, Carbery seized it, Scannell has seized it, Marmion seized his chance against England.

I just think JS is a top class coach, we are very lucky to have him.

[magpie seanie]

Posts getting a bit long so forgive me for not quoting your previous post.

Schmidt's past record speaks for itself. However, at certain points in EOS and DK's reigns they were doing brilliantly but then failed to evolve and stayed too loyal to players they were familiar with. I'm afraid Schmidt might do the same. Also - I think there's a genuine concern that his pre-rehearsed moves have been worked out by defences. Certainly we have been unbelievably blunt in attack, particularly inside the opponents 22. And another huge concern has to be our defence. Is Farrell a good defence coach? I thought we looked leaky in the autumn and the 6 Nations - again something Joe needs to sort.

I'm glad you mentioned Argentina. When we lost so many leaders we were short guys with experience. That's why I think we need greater depth in the squad. I'd argue that even though we're missing one-off players like BOD and POC the depth in Irish rugby is the best it has been, by far. I worry JS isn't doing enough to bring these guys through and will stick with the familiar. That's a viewpoint and time will tell. The other point about Argentina was the difference is skill levels. They were simply light years ahead of us skills wise and were able to play off the cuff and adapt as the game requires. Joe's rigid approach worries me in this regard.....are we going to repeat the same mistakes? Why do skilful players seem to worry him? He held back Zebo for ages and now when it looks like his pace is going he won't drop him. Tommy Bowe can come back in "train the house down" to prevent someone like Tiernan O'Halloran getting a place on the bench.

I think Schmidt has been a great coach but as you rightly point out its a results business. We shouldn't be losing to Wales and Scotland and we did. I'm very disappointed with you inferring I'm a "knee-jerk sports fan" - I would hope the arguments I've made are above that level.

[Owen Brannigan]

Schmidt's past record speaks for itself. However, at certain points in EOS and DK's reigns they were doing brilliantly but then failed to evolve and stayed too loyal to players they were familiar with. I'm afraid Schmidt might do the same. Also - I think there's a genuine concern that his pre-rehearsed moves have been worked out by defences. Certainly we have been unbelievably blunt in attack, particularly inside the opponents 22. And another huge concern has to be our defence. Is Farrell a good defence coach? I thought we looked leaky in the autumn and the 6 Nations - again something Joe needs to sort.

When Farrell was with England he was the backs coach.

[Dinny Breen]

Posts getting a bit long so forgive me for not quoting your previous post.

Schmidt's past record speaks for itself. However, at certain points in EOS and DK's reigns they were doing brilliantly but then failed to evolve and stayed too loyal to players they were familiar with. I'm afraid Schmidt might do the same. Also - I think there's a genuine concern that his pre-rehearsed moves have been worked out by defences. Certainly we have been unbelievably blunt in attack, particularly inside the opponents 22. And another huge concern has to be our defence. Is Farrell a good defence coach? I thought we looked leaky in the autumn and the 6 Nations - again something Joe needs to sort.

I'm glad you mentioned Argentina. When we lost so many leaders we were short guys with experience. That's why I think we need greater depth in the squad. I'd argue that even though we're missing one-off players like BOD and POC the depth in Irish rugby is the best it has been, by far. I worry JS isn't doing enough to bring these guys through and will stick with the familiar. That's a viewpoint and time will tell. The other point about Argentina was the difference is skill levels. They were simply light years ahead of us skills wise and were able to play off the cuff and adapt as the game requires. Joe's rigid approach worries me in this regard.....are we going to repeat the same mistakes? Why do skilful players seem to worry him? He held back Zebo for ages and now when it looks like his pace is going he won't drop him. Tommy Bowe can come back in "train the house down" to prevent someone like Tiernan O'Halloran getting a place on the bench.

I think Schmidt has been a great coach but as you rightly point out its a results business. We shouldn't be losing to Wales and Scotland and we did. I'm very disappointed with you inferring I'm a "knee-jerk sports fan" - I would hope the arguments I've made are above that level.

The language, not you and the arguments are solid.

Defence, bottom line, is and always will be about player attitude, our defence was outstanding against England and France and the one defensive slip from Paddy Jackson (cold off the bench) let Wales in for a try and changed the momentum of the game. Margins are that tight at the highest level. Against Scotland it was a disgrace and that mentally the players weren't switched on which is probably why JS kept harping on about the bus being late, it obviously had a mental impact.

Argentina hired Graham Henry in 2012, they put more emphasis on bottom up approach, skills focused and a 7s program, add in that are now in the rugby championship and their graph was only going to go up. JS can only play with the players and the skills they have. Matt O'Connor and Anthony Foley were not performance orientated coaches and put more emphasis on results not skills and Ulster had many problems, Pat Lam in 2015 was only starting to get best out of the Connacht players after extensive up skilling. The province are responsible for skills not JS. However you are right out attack is blunt particulary in the opposition 22. JS philosophy here is about ball retention and force the opposition to over-commit, make a mistake or give away a penalty. Teams have copped it and if you such patience in defence against Ireland you will get the reward.

JS I think knows this I expect an evolution to begin over the Summer tour. Well I hope it knows it...

No defending that Tommy Bowe call.

[Walter Cronc]

The language, not you and the arguments are solid.

Defence, bottom line, is and always will be about player attitude, our defence was outstanding against England and France and the one defensive slip from Paddy Jackson (cold off the bench) let Wales in for a try and changed the momentum of the game. Margins are that tight at the highest level. Against Scotland it was a disgrace and that mentally the players weren't switched on which is probably why JS kept harping on about the bus being late, it obviously had a mental impact.

Argentina hired Graham Henry in 2012, they put more emphasis on bottom up approach, skills focused and a 7s program, add in that are now in the rugby championship and their graph was only going to go up. JS can only play with the players and the skills they have. Matt O'Connor and Anthony Foley were not performance orientated coaches and put more emphasis on results not skills and Ulster had many problems, Pat Lam in 2015 was only starting to get best out of the Connacht players after extensive up skilling. The province are responsible for skills not JS. However you are right out attack is blunt particulary in the opposition 22. JS philosophy here is about ball retention and force the opposition to over-commit, make a mistake or give away a penalty. Teams have copped it and if you such patience in defence against Ireland you will get the reward.

JS I think knows this I expect an evolution to begin over the Summer tour. Well I hope it knows it...

No defending that Tommy Bowe call.
[/quote]

Posts getting a bit long so forgive me for not quoting your previous post.

Schmidt's past record speaks for itself. However, at certain points in EOS and DK's reigns they were doing brilliantly but then failed to evolve and stayed too loyal to players they were familiar with. I'm afraid Schmidt might do the same. Also - I think there's a genuine concern that his pre-rehearsed moves have been worked out by defences. Certainly we have been unbelievably blunt in attack, particularly inside the opponents 22. And another huge concern has to be our defence. Is Farrell a good defence coach? I thought we looked leaky in the autumn and the 6 Nations - again something Joe needs to sort.

I'm glad you mentioned Argentina. When we lost so many leaders we were short guys with experience. That's why I think we need greater depth in the squad. I'd argue that even though we're missing one-off players like BOD and POC the depth in Irish rugby is the best it has been, by far. I worry JS isn't doing enough to bring these guys through and will stick with the familiar. That's a viewpoint and time will tell. The other point about Argentina was the difference is skill levels. They were simply light years ahead of us skills wise and were able to play off the cuff and adapt as the game requires. Joe's rigid approach worries me in this regard.....are we going to repeat the same mistakes? Why do skilful players seem to worry him? He held back Zebo for ages and now when it looks like his pace is going he won't drop him. Tommy Bowe can come back in "train the house down" to prevent someone like Tiernan O'Halloran getting a place on the bench.

I think Schmidt has been a great coach but as you rightly point out its a results business. We shouldn't be losing to Wales and Scotland and we did. I'm very disappointed with you inferring I'm a "knee-jerk sports fan" - I would hope the arguments I've made are above that level.

The language, not you and the arguments are solid.

Defence, bottom line, is and always will be about player attitude, our defence was outstanding against England and France and the one defensive slip from Paddy Jackson (cold off the bench) let Wales in for a try and changed the momentum of the game. Margins are that tight at the highest level. Against Scotland it was a disgrace and that mentally the players weren't switched on which is probably why JS kept harping on about the bus being late, it obviously had a mental impact.

Argentina hired Graham Henry in 2012, they put more emphasis on bottom up approach, skills focused and a 7s program, add in that are now in the rugby championship and their graph was only going to go up. JS can only play with the players and the skills they have. Matt O'Connor and Anthony Foley were not performance orientated coaches and put more emphasis on results not skills and Ulster had many problems, Pat Lam in 2015 was only starting to get best out of the Connacht players after extensive up skilling. The province are responsible for skills not JS. However you are right out attack is blunt particulary in the opposition 22. JS philosophy here is about ball retention and force the opposition to over-commit, make a mistake or give away a penalty. Teams have copped it and if you such patience in defence against Ireland you will get the reward.

JS I think knows this I expect an evolution to begin over the Summer tour. Well I hope it knows it...

No defending that Tommy Bowe call.

Yes Paddy shot up but SOB equally to blame for missing Scott Williams here!

[magpie seanie]

Posts getting a bit long so forgive me for not quoting your previous post.

Schmidt's past record speaks for itself. However, at certain points in EOS and DK's reigns they were doing brilliantly but then failed to evolve and stayed too loyal to players they were familiar with. I'm afraid Schmidt might do the same. Also - I think there's a genuine concern that his pre-rehearsed moves have been worked out by defences. Certainly we have been unbelievably blunt in attack, particularly inside the opponents 22. And another huge concern has to be our defence. Is Farrell a good defence coach? I thought we looked leaky in the autumn and the 6 Nations - again something Joe needs to sort.

I'm glad you mentioned Argentina. When we lost so many leaders we were short guys with experience. That's why I think we need greater depth in the squad. I'd argue that even though we're missing one-off players like BOD and POC the depth in Irish rugby is the best it has been, by far. I worry JS isn't doing enough to bring these guys through and will stick with the familiar. That's a viewpoint and time will tell. The other point about Argentina was the difference is skill levels. They were simply light years ahead of us skills wise and were able to play off the cuff and adapt as the game requires. Joe's rigid approach worries me in this regard.....are we going to repeat the same mistakes? Why do skilful players seem to worry him? He held back Zebo for ages and now when it looks like his pace is going he won't drop him. Tommy Bowe can come back in "train the house down" to prevent someone like Tiernan O'Halloran getting a place on the bench.

I think Schmidt has been a great coach but as you rightly point out its a results business. We shouldn't be losing to Wales and Scotland and we did. I'm very disappointed with you inferring I'm a "knee-jerk sports fan" - I would hope the arguments I've made are above that level.

The language, not you and the arguments are solid.

Defence, bottom line, is and always will be about player attitude, our defence was outstanding against England and France and the one defensive slip from Paddy Jackson (cold off the bench) let Wales in for a try and changed the momentum of the game. Margins are that tight at the highest level. Against Scotland it was a disgrace and that mentally the players weren't switched on which is probably why JS kept harping on about the bus being late, it obviously had a mental impact.

Argentina hired Graham Henry in 2012, they put more emphasis on bottom up approach, skills focused and a 7s program, add in that are now in the rugby championship and their graph was only going to go up. JS can only play with the players and the skills they have. Matt O'Connor and Anthony Foley were not performance orientated coaches and put more emphasis on results not skills and Ulster had many problems, Pat Lam in 2015 was only starting to get best out of the Connacht players after extensive up skilling. The province are responsible for skills not JS. However you are right out attack is blunt particulary in the opposition 22. JS philosophy here is about ball retention and force the opposition to over-commit, make a mistake or give away a penalty. Teams have copped it and if you such patience in defence against Ireland you will get the reward.

JS I think knows this I expect an evolution to begin over the Summer tour. Well I hope it knows it...

No defending that Tommy Bowe call.

Sound - just two things there. Jackson made a mistake but as mentioned below SOB and later Ringrose could have done better. JS publicly calling out Jackson a few times was very wrong and again plays into the Leinster bias argument. Secondly on the skills thing - Schmidt seems genuinely repulsed by what Lam is doing at Connacht. That's my opinion and I can't back it up but I do feel he's reluctant to use Connacht players as they are coached differently to what he believes in (offloading, running from your own 22 etc). Ironically the game we played a little bit more expansively and kept the ball in hand was in Chicago and look how that went.

I hope you are right that he does go the way we need to. The previous two coaches have failed at this juncture, lets hope Joe proves my fears to be unfounded. I'm worried though.

[AZOffaly]

Munster team for Toulouse tomorrow. Murray back, I wonder how he will be. Good to see Sweetnam getting the game his form has deserved. Zebo to full back, which I think is his position longer term to be honest.

15 - Simon Zebo
14 - Darren Sweetnam
13 - Jaco Taute
12 - Rory Scannell
11 - Keith Earls
10 - Tyler Blyendaal
9 - Conor Murray
1 - David Kilcoyne
2 - Niall Scannell
3 - John Ryan
4 - Donnacha Ryan
5 - Billy Holland
6 - Peter O'Mahony (C)
7 - Tommy O'Donnell
8 - CJ Stander


16 - Rhys Marshall
17 - James Cronin
18 - Stephen Archer
19 - Dave O'Callaghan
20 - Jack O'Donoghue
21 - Duncan NameaJaysus Williams
22 - Francis Saili
23 - Andrew Conway

Solid enough backups at Prop and back row, and in the backs. Very light at Second Row and Scrum Half. No Keatley due to injury I think, so Scannell will be reserve out half if Blyendaal goes down. If Murray goes down, then the natural disaster that is Duncan Williams will be scrum half.

[Hardy]

Joey Carberry giving an exhibition here.

[seafoid]

Le Roux won't forget today for a long time

[Hardy]

There's little as satisfying as seeing showboating backfire.

[Hardy]

Wasps back in it now though.

[gallsman]

Decent performance bar that mini meltdown. Carberry has the makings of a great player. Seems to be playing a different game to the others at times.

[johnneycool]

There's little as satisfying as seeing showboating backfire.

I wonder if Beale hit him a kick in the hole at half time, some play by him to put leroux in

[seafoid]

Amazing season turnaround for Munster to be in the semi finals of whatever it is called now