The IRISH RUGBY thread

[seafoid]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/international-rugby/series-win-the-next-target-as-toner-sets-tone-in-courageous-display-34792732.html

[Maroon Manc]

A great weekend for Irish rugby, am I right in thinking Ireland have never beaten the All Blacks at any level before?

Looks like the u20's will be in a semi final next Monday, unfortunately I'm not back in Manchester until Tuesday.

[Walter Cronc]

A great weekend for Irish rugby, am I right in thinking Ireland have never beaten the All Blacks at any level before?

Looks like the u20's will be in a semi final next Monday, unfortunately I'm not back in Manchester until Tuesday.

Thats right. Only the womans team have beat NZ.

[Walter Cronc]

Talk of a few changes to the 15 ahead of Saturday. Rumour has it Gilroy, Olding, Dillane and Ruddock may all start. Going to be a massive test playing at altitude against a desperate Springbok side.

U20s through to the semi final of the RWC. Play our nemeses Argentina who have been hugely impressive in beating France and South Africa in the group stages. Heard this morning that captain James Ryan is out of the tournament. Massive loss!!!

[screenexile]

Talk of a few changes to the 15 ahead of Saturday. Rumour has it Gilroy, Olding, Dillane and Ruddock may all start. Going to be a massive test playing at altitude against a desperate Springbok side.

U20s through to the semi final of the RWC. Play our nemeses Argentina who have been hugely impressive in beating France and South Africa in the group stages. Heard this morning that captain James Ryan is out of the tournament. Massive loss!!!

Altitude will sort the men from the boys I can't see us winning this one given the altitude and the backlash we're going to face from last week.

It would be interesting to see those lads get a run out though hopefully they can impress.

[Walter Cronc]

Good article by Dorce!

Without trying to be controversial or critical in any way of Joe Schmidt and the undoubted impact made by Andy Farrell, this victory belongs to the players. Take Luke Marshall's exceptional performance. Despite being uncapped for two years, Marshall was so clearly ready to play a Test match in South Africa. That's because Joe included him as the 24th man throughout the Six Nations. He would have done all the preparation, without the pressure, so he understood precisely what was needed.

It looked like Marshall would carry (option 1) or hit Robbie on a short line (option 2). The Springbok defence duly narrowed as Paddy Jackson went out the back (option 3). If ball watching, as most Springbok defenders are doing, you can't see what's coming next. Marshall expertly nutmegs Damian de Allende. That allowed Jared to be fully rewarded for his lovely outside-to-in line from a blind zone behind the retreating JP Pietersen.

Marshall had the confidence to play his natural creative game without over-thinking.
Best example of this is the try he created for Jared Payne after 10 minutes. That was a rehearsed move. Two forward carries, by CJ Stander then Iain Henderson, saw Marshall standing at first receiver.
It looked like Marshall would carry (option 1) or hit Robbie on a short line (option 2). The Springbok defence duly narrowed as Paddy Jackson went out the back (option 3). If ball watching, as most Springbok defenders are doing, you can't see what's coming next.

Marshall expertly nutmegs Damian de Allende. That allowed Jared to be fully rewarded for his lovely outside-to-in line from a blind zone behind the retreating JP Pietersen.
We saw Marshall's value, yet again, when Conor Murray was blocked down near Ireland's try line. The ball bounced to Luke. A few years ago that would have been me throwing a leg at it and probably slicing the ball for a five-metre lineout. Thankfully, a clean spiral cleared the 22. He has always possessed a quality kicking game.

So this historic win came from the players, unheralded players like Rory Best and Devin Toner. Like Jordi Murphy and Paddy Jackson. The collective performance would have dissuaded a lot of people's presumption about their place in Irish rugby. After this victory, and hopefully what follows, they will forever be celebrated as the first Irish men to win in South Africa.

Especially Rory. He was always part of a leadership group, either led by Brian or Paulie but, now, unquestionably, he can be seen as a leader the players are willing to follow. None of the great or good Irish teams ever won in South Africa. Best's Ireland did just that and it was done in the face of an enormously unfair situation.

CJ Stander's red card was a bad call influenced by the severity of Pat Lambie's injury. A mistimed jump – strangely classed as a tackle – without any intent to legally hurt the outhalf, if Lambie hops up straight away it is a yellow card. Johnny Sexton has been hit late on several occasions this season and got nothing from it. James Haskell levelled him during the Six Nations. The same happened in Paris, and for Leinster away to the Ospreys when Sam Underhill marked Johnny's card.
Difference being Sexton was able to get up. This is not to make light of a serious injury but they do happen in rugby.

Eben Etzebeth appeared to be obsessed with maintaining his reputation as an enforcer. He spent the first 15 minutes trying to find Stander with torpedo entries to rucks that narrowly missed direct, damaging contact. Which is worse? The action should be punishable, not the result.
Mathieu Raynal seemed to send Stander off for the result of an accidental collision.

Then Robbie got an undeserved sin-binning for his late tackle on Elton Jantjies (whom he hit chest high but the sub outhalf fell away to avoid being hurt). That was just before Lwazi Mvovo's try reduced Ireland's lead to three points.

I only remember playing in two big games with 14 men. We won the 2001 Celtic League final against Munster at Lansdowne Road despite losing Eric Miller after 24 minutes. Then, in 2010, we lost 66-28 in New Zealand after Wayne Barnes sent off Jamie Heaslip for kneeing Richie McCaw while he illegally lay on me a yard from the try line.

Different times, different circumstances (the All Blacks easily being the best team in the world at the time), but when that happens everyone needs to be perfect in everything they do. Or else you're under your posts listening to the same speech over and over again.

I mentioned last week that once players are in automatic mode anything is possible. But I also mentioned the need to have a cause that leads to players unconsciously digging deeper than usual.
Dev Toner was world class. Afterwards, when collecting the man of the match award, he dedicated the win to his father, Peter Toner. A fitting tribute to a lovely man.

Now, the strongest common goal was to win in South Africa, but there just seemed to be lots of little moments when players piled in behind a Dev carry, a big choke tackle, a lineout steal. There was a higher motive there and others rallied around him. Especially Iain Henderson.

With Dev running the set-piece, the number on Henderson's back became irrelevant. I was worried he might be shackled by playing in the secondrow but Dev ensured that wasn't a concern. He could just play rugby, and Iain Henderson is a fantastic, powerful rugby player who, along with Rory Best, ripped balls from Springbok forwards in sight of our try line. On other days these were certain tries.

Then there was Jordi Murphy and Jamie. They magnificently covered the void left by Stander, along with Henderson carrying enough for two men and Andrew Trimble scrumming down on the blindside. Mike Ross also gets real credit for holding off a Bok scrum despite having a winger behind him.
Jordi came in from the cold having been dismissed by some after the World Cup quarter-final to play like it was his last ever game. Maybe he felt like it was his last chance in a green jersey. Josh van der Flier had passed him out this season and when Seán O'Brien returned he slipped down to third choice openside at his club. His stop-in-your- tracks tackling denied South Africa the yard over the gainline they needed. And he always got back to his feet quickly, counter-rucking to slow Springbok possession. Heaslip played his best game for three or four years. I have already written that about him three times this season. He was immense, and is having the season of his life.

Jackson's was a fine performance. Keeping Ireland on the front foot, he seems to belong at this level.
The freedom afforded to Payne at fullback yielded serious profit for Ireland's attack. The offloading, to twice put Trimble away, was already in evidence against Italy, when he ran from deep into the 15 channel before putting Simon Zebo clear. A gliding runner, Jared's change of pace is deceptive. Saturday's five offloads were the automatic option; the one that led to Conor Murray's try saw him step outside Adriaan Strauss and when Mvovo glanced inside, Jared automatically knew the ball could be slipped out the back door in contact.

All this is what I mean by the victory being more about the players on the field than the coaches looking on. There was nothing vastly different from Ireland. Except all their good habits were in view. That's the players doing their jobs, instinctively and accurately.

Of course, the arrival of Andy Farrell was evident in defence. The technique was good, spacing was on point, but the decision-making is about the players. And that's where they denied South Africa points. Their intent was the root cause of this famous win.

We also saw that earlier in the day in Manchester. The under-20s beat New Zealand hands down. Better coached, better exit strategies from defence, along with phenomenal set-piece work by Andrew Porter and James Ryan in particular.

This pair also made important yardage by carrying in tandem. Just before Ryan was targeted in contact, he would slingshot Porter over the gainline. It was what we normally see from Springbok ball-carriers and Porter's strength ensured quick ball.

I was worried beforehand that Jacob Stockdale might be exposed considering how much he ran the ball against Wales, that he might overplay his hand, but he superbly mixed his game up. His massive left boot was needed after Bill Johnston went off injured.

All that said, I wouldn't hand-pick any of them for senior honours just yet. Even Ryan at 6ft 8in and so clearly a natural leader of men has plenty of development ahead – his performances for Leinster A this season were encouraging but he has lots of work-ons, physically and technically, but that is an exciting prospect.

The 20s did, however, ape their senior colleagues by visualising how they would automatically perform once in the position to beat the Grand Slam or world champions.

That, above all else, is what made this such a special day for Irish rugby. Both teams played without fear in the face of the Springbok or black jersey. My generation brought Ireland past the era of fearing such opponents (without ever beating the All Blacks or winning in South Africa). The current and coming generations are closing the deal now.

Two hoodoos smashed on one memorable Saturday afternoon. Serious progress in what was seemingly a season of backward steps for Irish rugby.

[Walter Cronc]

Looks like the other U20 lock Gallagher (Sligo) is out of Mondays semi final. Jesus its like Cardiff all over again!!

[AZOffaly]

The way Rugby is going, I don't think the schedulers can continue to play games so quickly together. Tournaments are going to have to have either less games, or more time between games. There's too many collisions and impacts, and the bodies cannot be right 4 days later.

[Walter Cronc]

Agree AZ. Are these shoulder injuries 'one off' impact collisions or wear and tear over 2-3 games in quick succession?

Do we get more injuries than other nations or do they just have bigger squads to replace players?

[AZOffaly]

Agree AZ. Are these shoulder injuries 'one off' impact collisions or wear and tear over 2-3 games in quick succession?

Do we get more injuries than other nations or do they just have bigger squads to replace players?

I'm sure each injury has specific causes, but even if the injury is caused by a single collision, the fact that the body has taken punishment and may not be fully recovered must surely add to the risk of such an injury.

[Walter Cronc]

Ireland (v South Africa): Jared Payne (Ulster), Andrew Trimble (Ulster), Robbie Henshaw (Connacht), Stuart Olding (Ulster), Craig Gilroy (Ulster), Paddy Jackson (Ulster), Conor Murray (Munster); Jamie Heaslip (Leinster), Rhys Ruddock (Leinster), Iain Henderson (Ulster), Devin Toner (Leinster), Quinn Roux (Connacht), Tadhg Furlong (Leinster), Rory Best (Ulster, captain), Jack McGrath (Leinster)

Replacements: Richardt Strauss (Leinster), David Kilcoyne (Munster), Finlay Bealham (Connacht), Donnacha Ryan (Munster), Seán Reidy (Ulster), Kieran Marmion (Connacht), Ian Madigan (Leinster), Tiernan O'Halloran (Connacht)

Starting Roux is a strange one. No Dillane in 23?? Is Joe keeping him for the final test!!

[Dinny Breen]

Just looking at that Irish squad and wondering is there a co-relation between the GAA's massive funding of Dublin and the lack of Dublin players in the squad. Only Jack McGrath starting and Ian Madigan on the bench are Dubs, has Dublin GAA won the battle? or are these things cyclical but with a quarter of the population of this Island based in Dublin it's definitely not a proportional representation.

[Walter Cronc]

Just looking at that Irish squad and wondering is there a co-relation between the GAA's massive funding of Dublin and the lack of Dublin players in the squad. Only Jack McGrath starting and Ian Madigan on the bench are Dubs, has Dublin GAA won the battle? or are these things cyclical but with a quarter of the population of this Island based in Dublin it's definitely not a proportional representation.

Don't believe so - the player pool is spreading wider and into more rural areas. With the demands placed on inter county players a lad talented at rugby and football/hurling at 14/15 is certainly more inclined to choose the professional route.

[Dinny Breen]

Just looking at that Irish squad and wondering is there a co-relation between the GAA's massive funding of Dublin and the lack of Dublin players in the squad. Only Jack McGrath starting and Ian Madigan on the bench are Dubs, has Dublin GAA won the battle? or are these things cyclical but with a quarter of the population of this Island based in Dublin it's definitely not a proportional representation.

Don't believe so - the player pool is spreading wider and into more rural areas. With the demands placed on inter county players a lad talented at rugby and football/hurling at 14/15 is certainly more inclined to choose the professional route.

That Dublin team are as professional as the Leinster Rugby team and Academy players get pittance though so not as straight forward as you would think. The numbers are interesting though especially with the investment placed in schools such as Blackrock, Michaels and Belvedere. I do have issues with Leinster's ability to identify talent and their ability to develop talent though so perhaps it's more reflective of that than competition from other sports bodies.

[Walter Cronc]

Just looking at that Irish squad and wondering is there a co-relation between the GAA's massive funding of Dublin and the lack of Dublin players in the squad. Only Jack McGrath starting and Ian Madigan on the bench are Dubs, has Dublin GAA won the battle? or are these things cyclical but with a quarter of the population of this Island based in Dublin it's definitely not a proportional representation.

Don't believe so - the player pool is spreading wider and into more rural areas. With the demands placed on inter county players a lad talented at rugby and football/hurling at 14/15 is certainly more inclined to choose the professional route.

That Dublin team are as professional as the Leinster Rugby team and Academy players get pittance though so not as straight forward as you would think. The numbers are interesting though especially with the investment placed in schools such as Blackrock, Michaels and Belvedere. I do have issues with Leinster's ability to identify talent and their ability to develop talent though so perhaps it's more reflective of that than competition from other sports bodies.

Dublin however isn't your standard GAA side though. Take a lad say from Down or Wexford. Is he going to choose a chance at professional rugby or 10 years of slog with practically no reward!