The IRISH RUGBY thread

[AZOffaly]

The problems are wider than Jonny Sexton. Irish rugby is in a spot of bother I think. The coaching setups in Munster and Leinster are out of their depth. Connacht are doing great stuff but they have a glass ceiling because of their resources. Ulster may be the outlier at the moment, but I doubt it, I think they are probably in a similar boat to Munster and Leinster.

The air just seems to be out of the balloon. I can't speak for Leinster, but as a season ticket holder for many years at Thomond Park, the outlook is as bleak as I can ever remember it. The big money in England and France is a huge issue, but it's far from the only issue and if the Munster Branch and IRFU are not careful, Thomond Park is going to be approximately 15k too big for any game they have. Leicester were not a star studded team by any means, but they were seriously comfortable throughout most of that game.

It's fairly apparent that the coaching staff are rattled, and have lost confidence in themselves. They don't have the courage of their convictions. It's obvious they know they have to be able to run the ball, but they are doing it at stupid times and it has to be coming from the coach. European game, good atmosphere, big crowd (although far from a sellout, which would have been unthinkable 5 years ago). You receive the kickoff, so you control the ball, feed the outhalf and find a good touch, get the crowd on the opposing hooker's back and try contest their lineout. Right? No. We'll throw it around our own 22 for 5 or 6 passes, and then kick it straight back up the middle. Nonsense stuff. All the opposition have to do is get a line set, make their first tackle, and let Munster peeter out until Murray kicks a box kick. It's so predictable. The obvious thing for this Munster team is to attack around the edges with the likes of Stander, just to set up the play and *then* go wide to attacking runners coming at pace. It's not rocket science.

And then, so frustratingly, when they win a turnover in a good position, halfway or even beyond, they *don't* go wide quickly. They try and crash up the centre, and the opposition regroup. Either we have a very stupid bunch of players, or our coaching is just not coming up with an effective gameplan that the lads can implement.

A lot of the blame is laid at Keatley's door, simply because he is not O'Gara, and that's unfair. He does make stupid mistakes, and misses kicks he shouldn't, and when he misses a tackle he really misses them at the worst times, but he is what he is. He is decent. Average to slightly above Average. Not good enough for international rugby, nor for a proper big team. But for what Munster are at the moment, he is probably the poster boy of that averageness, and that's why he is getting a lot of blame. The jeering when he went off on Saturday was terrible. The first time I've ever heard anything like that, ever, and we've seen some ropey performances at times. That sort of reaction from 'fans' can't be justified, but  I just think the frustration levels are reaching boiling point, and what will happen quickly is the anger will be replaced by apathy, and then by absence. You can see it already, and it's not going to change without a serious shake up in Munster. The problem is, I don't know they have the wherewithal to make the sort of changes that are probably needed.

A team with a back 3 of Zebo, Earls and Conway, and with Saili in the centre should be far more dangerous than they are. But we have a scrum half that kicks this bullshite box kick every fecking time we have it, an outhalf who *won't* play territory when he should, and a gameplan that basically means our backs have to make something happen themselves out of the blue if anything positive is going to happen.

In defence then, we are just missing tackle after tackle and it is pathetic.

As I said, I can't really speak for Leinster, but if Munster, who was the poster child for the Irish in Europe for a good few years in the noughties with massive travelling support etc, can't get their act together they are going to lose the ground they have made up in every village and town in the province. As a GAA man first and foremost, that might not be all bad, but as a sports fan, and someone who is a Munster fan, it's very sad, but if the IRFU were in any danger of complacency over Munster's position in the pecking order, last weekend will hopefully have changed all that.

[Walter Cronc]

Munster fans jeering Keatley when he came off. Bad form that!!!

The lad is obviously out of his depth. Don't get me started on Foley as a coach.

Arrogance and greed from the Munster hierarchy over the last few years has led to this.

[AZOffaly]

Munster fans jeering Keatley when he came off. Bad form that!!!

The lad is obviously out of his depth. Don't get me started on Foley as a coach.

Arrogance and greed from the Munster hierarchy over the last few years has led to this.

Yep. that's right. And complacency. They just assume the bandwagon will roll on forever. This team is genuinely loved down here, but the hard core support back in the early Celtic League games in the old Thomond Park was always 4 or 5k. The big days were the Interpros and the visit of the English and French teams. If Munster become uncompetitive, and Leicester and Clermont have been very comfortable now in back to back years, the crowd will fall back towards that number again.

As for the jeering of Keatley, it was shocking. I can't understand the thinking there at all, and as I've said, I've never heard it there before. There'd be mutterings about Duncan Williams and Keately (and others) in the past, but never anything like that.

I've heard people say the jeering was aimed at Foley for waiting so long to take off a lad that was obviously struggling, but I have my doubts, let's leave it at that!

[seafoid]

Munster fans jeering Keatley when he came off. Bad form that!!!

The lad is obviously out of his depth. Don't get me started on Foley as a coach.

Arrogance and greed from the Munster hierarchy over the last few years has led to this.

Yep. that's right. And complacency. They just assume the bandwagon will roll on forever. This team is genuinely loved down here, but the hard core support back in the early Celtic League games in the old Thomond Park was always 4 or 5k. The big days were the Interpros and the visit of the English and French teams. If Munster become uncompetitive, and Leicester and Clermont have been very comfortable now in back to back years, the crowd will fall back towards that number again.

As for the jeering of Keatley, it was shocking. I can't understand the thinking there at all, and as I've said, I've never heard it there before. There'd be mutterings about Duncan Williams and Keately (and others) in the past, but never anything like that.

I've heard people say the jeering was aimed at Foley for waiting so long to take off a lad that was obviously struggling, but I have my doubts, let's leave it at that!

Every successful team has to adjust eventually to reduced expectations, as we all know , quite painfully. But the money issue is disfiguring rugby and will make getting back to the top harder for Munster

[AZOffaly]

When you are at a financial disadvantage, you have to spend the money you have wisely, and you have to invest in youth coming through. You also have to maximise the resources you have and coach the players to be the best they can be, in a gameplan that suits them.

In Munster they are spending money crazily (I've heard 500k p.a. for Saili!), they are getting in short termers on big enough wedges of cash, rather than giving younger lads a go, they are failing to develop enough that they feel confident can step up in a short term role, and the game they are trying to play is defensively weak and offensively predictable, stale and slow.

[Walter Cronc]

When you are at a financial disadvantage, you have to spend the money you have wisely, and you have to invest in youth coming through. You also have to maximise the resources you have and coach the players to be the best they can be, in a gameplan that suits them.

In Munster they are spending money crazily (I've heard 500k p.a. for Saili!), they are getting in short termers on big enough wedges of cash, rather than giving younger lads a go, they are failing to develop enough that they feel confident can step up in a short term role, and the game they are trying to play is defensively weak and offensively predictable, stale and slow.

Jeez that sounds fairly bleak! Definitely the responsibility of the hierarchy. Yes we all know each province has to look after its interests but I definitely feel more could be done to spread the player pool. Personally I would love to see both Madigan and Henshaw at Munster!

Could something along the lines of a draft system work in Irish rugby. Young players centrally contracted and sent top provinces where there is a shortfall in certain playing positions? Say for example Connacht lost Henshaw to Leinster they would get a couple of top younger players in return.

Maybe I'm waffling but just a thought.

[AZOffaly]

The single biggest issue is the coaching. The players they have are not good enough in key areas to be a powerhouse, but they are good enough to be Munster at home at least. Conor Murray is not providing leadership either, and the imports haven't clicked. That said, there are some good players there, the team is just not functioning in any sort of recognisable pattern. That Leicester game wasn't lost because of money or lack of players. It wasn't even lost because Keatley missed a sitter and a terrible tackle. It was lost because it is so easy to defend against Munster now that any half decent team will put them under pressure.

It's not as bleak as I might have painted, but it is trending that way and the underlying issues, which I mentioned, have to be sorted out. the quickest to sort out is the coaching, unfortunately.

[Walter Cronc]

Who would you get in? Cant see it being changed at this stage. Would love Conor O'Shea or Bernard Jackman to get a chance at an Irish province, whether that's Munster or Leinster!

[AZOffaly]

Conor O'Shea would be the sexy choice, but I can't see it happening. Why would he do it?  Pat Lam would probably be an ideal fit because of his experience with getting limited resources thrown his way, and making the best of them, but I'd hate to see Connacht getting shafted like that. Plus if Lam is to move, the IRFU will probably send him to Dublin. Mike Catt might be an option as a backs coach.

[Walter Cronc]

Jackman has done well with very limited resources at Grenoble. Deserves a shot in my book. Probably should have got the Leinster gig over Cullen!

[mikehunt]

Sexton has been playing poorly for the best part of a year at this stage.  I hope for his own sake it's a form issue and nothing concussion related.  Might be no harm if he took a 6 month sabbatical from the game as per Dan Carter a few years ago but unlikely to happen I guess.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gerry-thornley-johnny-sexton-burdened-by-weight-of-expectation-1.2466435

They're trying to charge me to read a Jerry Thornley "article"? Let me guess, Jerry blames France, England or Southern hemisphere for Ireland player/team being sh!t?

[muppet]

Sexton has been playing poorly for the best part of a year at this stage.  I hope for his own sake it's a form issue and nothing concussion related.  Might be no harm if he took a 6 month sabbatical from the game as per Dan Carter a few years ago but unlikely to happen I guess.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gerry-thornley-johnny-sexton-burdened-by-weight-of-expectation-1.2466435

They're trying to charge me to read a Jerry Thornley "article"? Let me guess, Jerry blames France, England or Southern hemisphere for Ireland player/team being sh!t?

Not quite, he blames the Government and in particular Fine Gael and their Minister for Sport.

[Applesisapples]

The single biggest issue is the coaching. The players they have are not good enough in key areas to be a powerhouse, but they are good enough to be Munster at home at least. Conor Murray is not providing leadership either, and the imports haven't clicked. That said, there are some good players there, the team is just not functioning in any sort of recognisable pattern. That Leicester game wasn't lost because of money or lack of players. It wasn't even lost because Keatley missed a sitter and a terrible tackle. It was lost because it is so easy to defend against Munster now that any half decent team will put them under pressure.

It's not as bleak as I might have painted, but it is trending that way and the underlying issues, which I mentioned, have to be sorted out. the quickest to sort out is the coaching, unfortunately.

I've never played the game but watch all the Provinces avidly it is obvious that what you are saying is on the money.

[Dinny Breen]

Munster fans were built up as some sort of mystical entity by the media when phrases such as "The Holy Grail" "The Brave and the Faithful" "Irish by birth Munster by the grace of God" etc were all the rage and cheerleaders such as Thornley, McQueen, Ward etc couldn't gush enough about Munster. And the Munster fans lapped it up and in fairness as bangwagons go it was pretty impressive and helped establish the Heineken Cup as a meaningful competition. Now I love a bit of Munster fan bashing but this week was ridiculous, our culture particular in sport is very bi-polar and we are open to knee-jerk reactions including extreme criticism of our own players. Munster fans just showed they are the exact same as Kildare fans (Martin Lynch) Irish soccer fans (Roy Keane), they get frustrated and like all fans struggle as a collective to express that other than booing and jeering. Keatley is a professional and as I say to any young player Wolves don't stay awake at night wondering what the sheep are thinking about, if booing and public criticism affects him he is in the wrong profession.

Kiss and Cullen get a pass as it is their first year, Foley got his pass last year and if I was to pin-point the problem with Munster I would start there. He blamed the ref (ridiculous penalty, but you move on control the controllables), he blamed the players but I would have more respect if blamed himself and deflected from the players. When I see Hanrahan play pretty well opposite Carter then you have to ask has Foley a clue or is just trying to replicate what was successful 10 years ago...

[Dinny Breen]

Jackman has done well with very limited resources at Grenoble. Deserves a shot in my book. Probably should have got the Leinster gig over Cullen!

He's a bluffer.