The IRISH RUGBY thread

[trileacman]

Would some of the more knowledgable lads here explain to me what Ireland/Murrays tactic of the GarryOwen was all about. He didn't appear to get even one of the kicks right.  We conceeded the ball to the AB's each time. Surly the coach would have been saying. Stop with the box kicks. They are not working.

I for the life of me couldn't understand Murray's kicking. We worked so hard on so many occasions to get the ball back then after carrying the ball into only 1 tackle, recycled the ball to Murray who kicked it back to them. surely it takes more out of a team defending and tackling than it does attacking. No wonder we ran out of steam.

I was scratching my head then, and I'm still scratching it now.

NZ weren't interested in the posts; they needed a try. They needed possession. Even if they got it, they were keeping it in hand, as kicking for touch in the hope of stealing a lineout wasn't an option. Territory didn't matter.

So us having the ball at the halfway line simply had to be a better option than them having the ball on their own 10. Us holding onto the ball inside our own 22 would have been a better option than giving it to them anywhere on the pitch.

I can forgive Sexton. People miss kicks at goal. But Murray just made shocking, awful decisions. Harder to forgive. Why POC didn't rip his head off his shoulders after the first one, I've no idea either.

I'm sorry but's that not true, if Ireland had thrown the ball around in there 22 and gave away an obvious penalty you'd be the 1st to f**k them out of it for their stupidity so they're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Murray's box kicking was excellent for most of the day as he kept them tight to the line, hung them up well and there was a good chase. In the final minutes he obviously felt he couldn't throw it wide and rely on a back-line who were out on their feet to take it up and still retain possession against the Maori backs. Likewise the tactic of "up the jumper" was stagnating due to a similarly tired forward line who were conceding ground at every carry.

Outside him he had a cold 10 who isn't known for his kicking and so he felt he could take it on himself. Of itself the kick wasn't the worst, the chase was just poor because the team were f**king wrecked, earlier on the game the same tactic had produced alot of favourable outcomes.

What I'm saying is there is a rugby methodology that alot of you self-confessed "I don't know much about rugby" posters are not considering. Ireland needed a out-half like ROG in those dying moments, yes he was a shite tackler but he could pin a kick to the 5metre line better than any 10 I've seen. That's what we needed in the last 3 minutes, a lineout in the NZ 22 for either side. It would burn time, is a terrible attacking platform for the NZ and we can compete excellent for lineouts.

Rugby is a trade-off between possession and territory, a concept not as  integral to GAA or soccer. I think Murray is being unfairly blamed for the defeat here. Yeah he kicked possession away but when Ireland retained possession they made mistakes and lost it with 20 seconds to go, surely you can argue it was better to give the NZ lads possession in their 22 than to retain possession ourselves, concede a penalty and effectively give the NZ attacking possession on halfway.

[Donnellys Hollow]

Murray was excellent yesterday. A kick is only as good as the chase after it. Ireland's kick and chase was very effective for the most part yesterday but the team was shagged in the last twenty minutes. We simply didn't have the men chasing down those kicks like we had in the first hour.

Sexton's penalty was a huge turning point. The game was up for NZ if it went over but the miss only seemed to add to the nerves that were kicking in to our play. His technique from dead balls has never looked overly convincing. He has a tendency to snatch at kicks and misses his fair share of gimmes.

I'm surprised that Toner's penalty has been largely glossed over in the aftermath. Ireland's defence had done unbelievably well to turn over NZ when they were camped on our line and Toner undone all the good work with a moment of utter stupidity. He had a good game overall but you can't give away cheap points like that and expect to beat the best team in the world.

[thewobbler]

All things considered Trileacman, I stand by my point. NZ could only beat Ireland if they got the ball in their hands. Murray gifted the ball back to them when the only option was to hang onto it for dear life. 

Rugby is a game of possession vs territory, absolutely. But like every other field sport it's a lot harder on the legs when you don't have the ball, and if your team are out on the feet, you don't give it away. You can harp on about ROG all you like, and I even agree with you, but what Murray tried wasn't a kick for a corner. It was a box kick that went just over 10m, and as well as giving away possession, forced the entire pack to move and realign 30m across the field from the previous ruck. It was an awful decision.

[gallsman]

Murray was excellent yesterday[/b]. A kick is only as good as the chase after it. Ireland's kick and chase was very effective for the most part yesterday but the team was shagged in the last twenty minutes. We simply didn't have the men chasing down those kicks like we had in the first hour.

Sexton's penalty was a huge turning point. The game was up for NZ if it went over but the miss only seemed to add to the nerves that were kicking in to our play. His technique from dead balls has never looked overly convincing. He has a tendency to snatch at kicks and misses his fair share of gimmes.

I'm surprised that Toner's penalty has been largely glossed over in the aftermath. Ireland's defence had done unbelievably well to turn over NZ when they were camped on our line and Toner undone all the good work with a moment of utter stupidity. He had a good game overall but you can't give away cheap points like that and expect to beat the best team in the world.

Murray - agreed. Debate is over about Ireland's first choice scrum half and should have been after he came on in the first Lions test. He was one of my candidates for man of the match.

Sexton - players miss kicks. It happens. He bottled it but he probably knows it more than anyone. He's one of the world's top fly halves.

Toner - was really impressed with him yesterday for the first time and deserves a lot of credit. He gave away a stupid penalty and he knew it immediately. Again, it happens and hopefully he can learn from it. Whitelock and Retallick were anonymous for the AB's yesterday - a rarity

[AZOffaly]

Lads, do you think Murray decides to box kick for the craic. It's obviously a tactical ploy. In the last few minutes Ireland were so obviously fucked that he didn't even have much of a choice. Couldn't go wide because the backs were knackered and the forwards were barely hanging on. We weren't able to do the whole pick and drive for even 3 minutes there at the end without giving away the penalty that did for us, how would we have been able to do it for 7 or 8 minutes?

Murray is the wrong man to be blaming for this.

[Dinny Breen]

Lads, do you think Murray decides to box kick for the craic. It's obviously a tactical ploy. In the last few minutes Ireland were so obviously fucked that he didn't even have much of a choice. Couldn't go wide because the backs were knackered and the forwards were barely hanging on. We weren't able to do the whole pick and drive for even 3 minutes there at the end without giving away the penalty that did for us, how would we have been able to do it for 7 or 8 minutes?

Murray is the wrong man to be blaming for this.

Don't think we can blame anyone man. Really hate this culture of looking for a scapegoat. Focus on the victors, they won the game through clarity, accuracy and intensity. That final 2 mins was clutch defining as the yanks would say, not a missed kicked from our only period of pressure in the 2nd half or a defensive lapse. That 2 mins is what defines great teams and sportsmen, NZ executed under pressure they showed a will and a desire we can only aspire to.

[AZOffaly]

Lads, do you think Murray decides to box kick for the craic. It's obviously a tactical ploy. In the last few minutes Ireland were so obviously fucked that he didn't even have much of a choice. Couldn't go wide because the backs were knackered and the forwards were barely hanging on. We weren't able to do the whole pick and drive for even 3 minutes there at the end without giving away the penalty that did for us, how would we have been able to do it for 7 or 8 minutes?

Murray is the wrong man to be blaming for this.

Don't think we can blame anyone man. Really hate this culture of looking for a scapegoat. Focus on the victors, they won the game through clarity, accuracy and intensity. That final 2 mins was clutch defining as the yanks would say, not a missed kicked from our only period of pressure in the 2nd half or a defensive lapse. That 2 mins is what defines great teams and sportsmen, NZ executed under pressure they showed a will and a desire we can only aspire to.

Yeah, I think that's fair enough. I think Ireland probably did all they could, they simply couldn't fall over the line. NZ showed themselves to be champions.

[gerrykeegan]

Lads, do you think Murray decides to box kick for the craic. It's obviously a tactical ploy. In the last few minutes Ireland were so obviously fucked that he didn't even have much of a choice. Couldn't go wide because the backs were knackered and the forwards were barely hanging on. We weren't able to do the whole pick and drive for even 3 minutes there at the end without giving away the penalty that did for us, how would we have been able to do it for 7 or 8 minutes?

Murray is the wrong man to be blaming for this.

Why not give to Sexton and kick for touch? At least the clock runs down a bit. The box kick gave the ball straight back in the AB's hands and they were straight back down our throats. I'm not blaming Murray, he (I assume) is following orders.

[turk]

Lads, do you think Murray decides to box kick for the craic. It's obviously a tactical ploy. In the last few minutes Ireland were so obviously fucked that he didn't even have much of a choice. Couldn't go wide because the backs were knackered and the forwards were barely hanging on. We weren't able to do the whole pick and drive for even 3 minutes there at the end without giving away the penalty that did for us, how would we have been able to do it for 7 or 8 minutes?

Murray is the wrong man to be blaming for this.

Box kicking is good crack!

[Wildweasel74]

Time to move on tot he 6 nations i think, if we played the All-Blacks again  next week i fear they put 30pts on us, to them, what we done would be a bit like stirring the hornets nest, like back in new Zealand a few yrs bck, we got slaughtered 2nd time out, careful what u wish for

[JUst retired]

My  daughter was at the game on Sunday. In their company was a man with a prostege leg. When he got in the lift after the game he was made to get out and walk down the stairs. He was told he wasnt disabled enough as the lifts were only for people in wheelchairs. Careing Aviva.

[Applesisapples]

Easy to blame Sexton on the penalty miss. I thought though at that stage 3 points wouldn't be enough to hold the AB's out. Ireland were getting the better of them and O'Connell should have gone for the try. Anyway monumental effort against an awesome team. I liked the rugby Ireland played unlike the awful (but also nearly successful) style England played. Hopefully this is not a flash in the pan and Joe can bring them on.

It wasn't a very difficult kick, it wasn't a certainty but you would expect someone of Sextons class to convert it. If he scores that they needed more than a converted try to win, it was a no brainier to go for the kick.

Agreed.

What Captain in their right mind would have gone for the try when beating the All Blacks by 5 points with 8 minutes left!!!

One facing the All Blacks who always do what's needed to win.

best to stop digging old bean. If you're saying going for the penalty and 3 points to go 8 points ahead with minutes remaining was the wrong option, you obv dont know too much about rugby in fairness

That may be true, but I know enough about the All Blacks to know that 3 would never have been enough.

[Applesisapples]

Lads, do you think Murray decides to box kick for the craic. It's obviously a tactical ploy. In the last few minutes Ireland were so obviously fucked that he didn't even have much of a choice. Couldn't go wide because the backs were knackered and the forwards were barely hanging on. We weren't able to do the whole pick and drive for even 3 minutes there at the end without giving away the penalty that did for us, how would we have been able to do it for 7 or 8 minutes?

Murray is the wrong man to be blaming for this.

Don't think we can blame anyone man. Really hate this culture of looking for a scapegoat. Focus on the victors, they won the game through clarity, accuracy and intensity. That final 2 mins was clutch defining as the yanks would say, not a missed kicked from our only period of pressure in the 2nd half or a defensive lapse. That 2 mins is what defines great teams and sportsmen, NZ executed under pressure they showed a will and a desire we can only aspire to.

I have to agree wholeheartedly, both teams made decisions/mistakes that cost them. The All Blacks are a team apart. Ireland need to build on what was a tremendous effort. The 6N will tell how they are progressing.

[deiseach]

That may be true, but I know enough about the All Blacks to know that 3 would never have been enough.

It wouldn't have been 3! It would have been 8! That's two scores, the same amount of scores as if they had been 12 points up! Bloody hell, Cian Healy was right. The horseshit that surrounds the 'All Blacks' is ridiculous. This is the country that went 24 years without winning the World Cup and flopped over the finishing line in the most undignified manner possible when they finally did. Next time, we should tell them to stick their haka up their hole. No doubt that will be viewed as making them angry and used as the reason the beat us 60-0 but they usually do that anyway and at least we'll have the satisfaction of telling them to stick their haka up their hole.

[johnneycool]

Lads, do you think Murray decides to box kick for the craic. It's obviously a tactical ploy. In the last few minutes Ireland were so obviously fucked that he didn't even have much of a choice. Couldn't go wide because the backs were knackered and the forwards were barely hanging on. We weren't able to do the whole pick and drive for even 3 minutes there at the end without giving away the penalty that did for us, how would we have been able to do it for 7 or 8 minutes?

Murray is the wrong man to be blaming for this.

Don't think we can blame anyone man. Really hate this culture of looking for a scapegoat. Focus on the victors, they won the game through clarity, accuracy and intensity. That final 2 mins was clutch defining as the yanks would say, not a missed kicked from our only period of pressure in the 2nd half or a defensive lapse. That 2 mins is what defines great teams and sportsmen, NZ executed under pressure they showed a will and a desire we can only aspire to.

Yeah, I think that's fair enough. I think Ireland probably did all they could, they simply couldn't fall over the line. NZ showed themselves to be champions.

First things first, how in the name of god would you want Sexton to 'practice' taking kicks with the Irish rugby world on the verge of beating the All Blacks for the first time in their history (don't think the Munster thing counts  ) ?

That type of mental pressure can't be manufactured on the training field, Sexton will be all the better for it.

The decision to go for the kick was entirely right as it would have meant NZ needing the try, conversion and another score, which at that time didn't look likely.

On the loss of possession which resulted in the try for NZ at the end, I thought Ireland had managed to get possession back from Murrays last box kick around midfield and it was visibly seen that the Irish were struggling to maintain possession though the phases due to tiredness and NZ's added aggression in this area. The final penalty was against Ireland for diving in on the ball in an attempt to recycle possession, Owens awarded the penalty which NZ took the quick tap and the rest is history..

Also on the conversion, the NZ outhalf does move long before he kicks the ball which resulted from the Irish charge. I thought Owen was a bit of a bollox for awarding the retake. The Irish backs did this in a previous conversion and unless Owen warned them about it, I thought they were well within their rights, are they not?

Great entertainment all the same.