The IRISH RUGBY thread

[thewobbler]

There should be relegation as Italy have been muck apart from the occasional match. Unfortunately don't think Georgia offer much more. The reason why there isn't relegation is the fear of Wales for example having one of their off seasons and ending up playing Belgium and Poland for a season or 2. It would financially ruin them

See this is my issue with rugby. Its an elitist top heavy sport that doesn't broaden its horizons beyond the top teams. If a relegation/ promotion existed in the six nations think what it could do for the likes of Germany. There is no reason why France can produce a world beating side but not Germany or Spain.
If Wales are not good enough then they are not good enough, tough. You can't be so protectionist about the six countries.
Bolton Wanderers and Bury were not good enough. Brentford and Brighton took their place and are flying.

Such tripe.

There's a hundred years of rugby culture, tradition and structures in France.

Rugby in Spain and Germany has roughly the same reach as Gaelic Football.

There is no fixing that chasm.

[RedHand88]

There should be relegation as Italy have been muck apart from the occasional match. Unfortunately don't think Georgia offer much more. The reason why there isn't relegation is the fear of Wales for example having one of their off seasons and ending up playing Belgium and Poland for a season or 2. It would financially ruin them

See this is my issue with rugby. Its an elitist top heavy sport that doesn't broaden its horizons beyond the top teams. If a relegation/ promotion existed in the six nations think what it could do for the likes of Germany. There is no reason why France can produce a world beating side but not Germany or Spain.
If Wales are not good enough then they are not good enough, tough. You can't be so protectionist about the six countries.
Bolton Wanderers and Bury were not good enough. Brentford and Brighton took their place and are flying.

Such tripe.

There's a hundred years of rugby culture, tradition and structures in France.

Rugby in Spain and Germany has roughly the same reach as Gaelic Football.

There is no fixing that chasm.

You are missing my point. There is zero interest in fixing the chasm.

[thewobbler]

I think you're missing mine too.

There is zero way to close that chasm. It's just not possible.

The interest levels of established nations isn't a factor.

[Wildweasel74]

Can you fix it in hurling, in a 100 years of trying, can't even fix teams that dropped away like Antrim, Offaly.

[seafoid]

There should be relegation as Italy have been muck apart from the occasional match. Unfortunately don't think Georgia offer much more. The reason why there isn't relegation is the fear of Wales for example having one of their off seasons and ending up playing Belgium and Poland for a season or 2. It would financially ruin them

See this is my issue with rugby. Its an elitist top heavy sport that doesn't broaden its horizons beyond the top teams. If a relegation/ promotion existed in the six nations think what it could do for the likes of Germany. There is no reason why France can produce a world beating side but not Germany or Spain.
If Wales are not good enough then they are not good enough, tough. You can't be so protectionist about the six countries.
Bolton Wanderers and Bury were not good enough. Brentford and Brighton took their place and are flying.

Such tripe.

There's a hundred years of rugby culture, tradition and structures in France.

Rugby in Spain and Germany has roughly the same reach as Gaelic Football.

There is no fixing that chasm.

The French rugby stronghold is in the South west around Toulouse which historically was very independent of Paris and is known for its past of Cathars and Huguenots who said f**k you to the centre of power until they were crushed. Rugby fell on fertile ground

[Wildweasel74]

There some very poor teams at the world cup, beatings on a power wth the Rugby league world cup last year. Some teams are so hard to judge as they are poor, semi professional for a fair few, some these teams concede maybe 30pts in the last 20mins.

[Tony Baloney]

There some very poor teams at the world cup, beatings on a power wth the Rugby league world cup last year. Some teams are so hard to judge as they are poor, semi professional for a fair few, some these teams concede maybe 30pts in the last 20mins.

Aye there is no entertainment in these Tier 1 vs Tier 2 matches. Very lopsided. Don't see how expanding the competition helps address the imbalance.

[seafoid]

There some very poor teams at the world cup, beatings on a power wth the Rugby league world cup last year. Some teams are so hard to judge as they are poor, semi professional for a fair few, some these teams concede maybe 30pts in the last 20mins.

The RWC is all about money. More teams means more games means longer tournament means more money
In 1987 profit was $18m compared to $150 m in 2015.

https://www.euronews.com/2023/09/23/rugby-world-cup-the-business-of-the-game

A 12 Sam Maguire and 12 Tailteann model would work with say 3 up 3 down for a bit of spice.

[Eire90]

i dont think they should expand number of teams but they should bring a preliminary quarter finals 2nds v 3rds it would also mean winning the group is a bigger incentive as you get a rest week and a bye to quarters.Tier 2 teams may have a chance of getting 3rd in group

[thewobbler]

i dont think they should expand number of teams but they should bring a preliminary quarter finals 2nds v 3rds it would also mean winning the group is a bigger incentive as you get a rest week and a bye to quarters.Tier 2 teams may have a chance of getting 3rd in group

The basic conundrum.

What is the actual point in having a tier 2 side progressing?

The odds of them eventually getting beaten by 50+ points would be less than evens.

The odds of them causing a shock against a tier 1 team would be closer to 100/1.

There will never be, in any of our lifetimes, a rugby nation emerge from tier 2 to tier 1.

That's the fundamental reality of the sport.

The World Cup up to now has been a lead balloon. It might be generating money at the minute but those revenues will drop unless it finds a way to deliver a more entertaining product.

That means fewer teams.

[seafoid]

i dont think they should expand number of teams but they should bring a preliminary quarter finals 2nds v 3rds it would also mean winning the group is a bigger incentive as you get a rest week and a bye to quarters.Tier 2 teams may have a chance of getting 3rd in group

The basic conundrum.

What is the actual point in having a tier 2 side progressing?

The odds of them eventually getting beaten by 50+ points would be less than evens.

The odds of them causing a shock against a tier 1 team would be closer to 100/1.

There will never be, in any of our lifetimes, a rugby nation emerge from tier 2 to tier 1.

That's the fundamental reality of the sport.

The World Cup up to now has been a lead balloon. It might be generating money at the minute but those revenues will drop unless it finds a way to deliver a more entertaining product.

That means fewer teams.

I wouldn't say never. It's about what they consider to be important. They could make it important.
Rugby in this regard is really similar to hurling

[seafoid]

Rugby and hurling have very strong similarities

Attractive sports uncorrelated with soccer
Extremely technical, so much harder to pick up than soccer at local club level
Geographically  constricted
Current structures not optimised
Large gap between top 9/10 and next level
Power struggles between incumbents and visionaries
Complacency
Highest prizes shared by a small number of teams

The issue for rugby/hurling is the power of the Tier 1 teams versus the potential of a more level playing field in terms of earning power/competition quality .

[thewobbler]

Seafood please take this on board.

When you talk about power struggles and highest prizes and lack of structures all being issues... you are completely missing the real issue.

The only possible way for more teams to reach tier 1 in hurling / rugby is for the current tier 1 sides to unilaterally agree to stop progressing, and indeed to step back for a while to allow the other lads to catch up.
 
This is not going to happen during any of our lifetimes in either sport.

[David McKeown]

All a bit clearer now.

If Ireland score 4 tries next week then they are through as long as they either win, draw or lose by anything other than 8-20 points.

If they don't score 4 tries then they are through if they draw, win or lose by less than 5 points. Or less than 7 with Scotland not scoring 4 tries.

[seafoid]

Seafood please take this on board.

When you talk about power struggles and highest prizes and lack of structures all being issues... you are completely missing the real issue.

The only possible way for more teams to reach tier 1 in hurling / rugby is for the current tier 1 sides to unilaterally agree to stop progressing, and indeed to step back for a while to allow the other lads to catch up.
 
This is not going to happen during any of our lifetimes in either sport.

Wobbler, we are talking about the same thing. Kilkenny and Tipp do not care about Antrim and Laois. NZ and Sa do not care about Georgia. There is no incentive for either to change.

Can you leave in our lifetimes out of it ?


All elite sports, to a greater or lesser extent, have been financialised. This means that money goes to the winners and Scraps or nothing go to the rest. The RWC is financialised. Income in 1987 was 18m and in 2019 was over 350m . The 6 nations is financialised. The 6 nations share the Tv money more or less equally. Portugal and Georgia fall behind because of this.



The teams that get the money operate at a higher level and leave the losers behind. This is Ireland compared to Romania or Dublin compared to Down or Real Madrid compared to Shamrock Rovers . The IRFU like the money. Of course they do. It funds a lot of rent seeking behaviour in South County Dublin and Belfast.  Why would they be interested in sharing it ? there is no incentive to share.
This is the economic system. why are 3 South African clubs playing in the URC? Because of the money . Why is World Rugby looking at a world league? Because of the money. NZ want to play the 6N teams regularly. There is no money in Fiji or Samoa. 

The currency in rugby is money. In hurling it is money plus stickwork.
The state of say Laois hurlers and Georgia rugby is ultimately political.

When the money is taken out of sport things are going to be very different.

In the previous system Mayo, Cavan and Roscommon won 10 all Irelands in the space of 20 years and Steaua Bucharest and Red Star Belgrade won the Champions League.