Does anyone know if there is an native Irish equivalent (equal and opposite) to the Orange Order museum?
http://www.orangeheritage.co.uk/museum-schomberg-house/
Is this the opposite?
http://www.culturlann.ie/en/welcome/
Or am I comparing apples and oranges?
Surely there would need to be an AOH museum to be an exact opposite and equal
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Order_of_Hibernians
??
Quote from: Orior on October 18, 2017, 10:25:46 PM
Does anyone know if there is an native Irish equivalent (equal and opposite) to the Orange Order museum?
http://www.orangeheritage.co.uk/museum-schomberg-house/
Point of order: Why should one person's culture have an "opposite" somewhere else? What's the opposite of Chinese culture? What's the opposite of Egyptian culture?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 18, 2017, 11:24:42 PM
Quote from: Orior on October 18, 2017, 10:25:46 PM
Does anyone know if there is an native Irish equivalent (equal and opposite) to the Orange Order museum?
http://www.orangeheritage.co.uk/museum-schomberg-house/
Point of order: Why should one person's culture have an "opposite" somewhere else? What's the opposite of Chinese culture? What's the opposite of Egyptian culture?
The north of Ireland is in a parallel universe from common sense.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 18, 2017, 11:24:42 PM
Quote from: Orior on October 18, 2017, 10:25:46 PM
Does anyone know if there is an native Irish equivalent (equal and opposite) to the Orange Order museum?
http://www.orangeheritage.co.uk/museum-schomberg-house/
Point of order: Why should one person's culture have an "opposite" somewhere else? What's the opposite of Chinese culture? What's the opposite of Egyptian culture?
Sad fact of life here. Problem is, if I take a bunch of tourists to the Orange Order Museum, then where would I get the alternative narrative?
The alternative is that I ignore the OO museum, and just go to the Ulster Museum and such.
As we don't do hate and bigotry very well I suggest you bring people to a Traditional music session.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 18, 2017, 11:44:11 PM
As we don't do hate and bigotry very well I suggest you bring people to a Traditional music session.
Correct. Why would you want to take your visitors to an Orange Order museum? In all the times I've visited the USA, none of my hosts has ever offered to take me here (http://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/news-photo/marquee-emblazoned-w-the-worlds-only-klan-museum-the-news-photo/50695108?esource=SEO_GIS_CDN_Redirect#marquee-emblazoned-w-the-worlds-only-klan-museum-the-redneck-shop-on-picture-id50695108).
Surely the biggest Orange Museum/Visitor attraction in the World is located at the site of the Battle of the Boyne,and funded entirely by the Dublin Government? Also if I'm not greatly mistaken a senior Government Official in the South,whose name escapes me,was instrumental in securing significant EU Peace and Reconciliation Funding for Orange Order projects North and South of the border,on the basis that these would contribute significantly to peace and reconciliation? How,I'm not sure.
Quote from: T Fearon on October 19, 2017, 03:09:38 PM
Surely the biggest Orange Museum/Visitor attraction in the World is located at the site of the Battle of the Boyne,and funded entirely by the Dublin Government? Also if I'm not greatly mistaken a senior Government Official in the South,whose name escapes me,was instrumental in securing significant EU Peace and Reconciliation Funding for Orange Order projects North and South of the border,on the basis that these would contribute significantly to peace and reconciliation? How,I'm not sure.
blueshirts were rarely ever logical and i was going to blame them but it was labour ministers i see
http://www.thejournal.ie/orange-order-has-gotten-e2-million-from-government-1700536-Oct2014/
Quote from: Rossfan on October 18, 2017, 11:44:11 PM
As we don't do hate and bigotry very well I suggest you bring people to a Traditional music session.
Yes, so that they can hear some lovely rebel songs being played. No fan of the OO, but it always grates when Nationalists / Republicans claim hate and bigotry is a one way street.
Most traditional sessions have few if any "rebel" songs - most of which anyway are about freedom from oppression, not hatred and bigotry.
I see the Orange Order has refused to answer a question as to whether they've expelled the terrorist who was convicted of driving a car into a crowd and running down a teenage girl.
As long as he didn't go into a Catholic Church I suppose.......
Quote from: Orior on October 18, 2017, 10:25:46 PM
Does anyone know if there is an native Irish equivalent (equal and opposite) to the Orange Order museum?
http://www.orangeheritage.co.uk/museum-schomberg-house/
Sunset in Corca Dhuibhne
Or a sideline cut over the bar from the Cusack Stand side
The problem with Unionist identity is making it real
Quote from: Rossfan on October 19, 2017, 06:46:09 PM
Most traditional sessions have few if any "rebel" songs - most of which anyway are about freedom from oppression, not hatred and bigotry.
I see the Orange Order has refused to answer a question as to whether they've expelled the terrorist who was convicted of driving a car into a crowd and running down a teenage girl.
As long as he didn't go into a Catholic Church I suppose.......
Would tend to agree with you but there you go justifying the ones that are sung! So much for "we don't do hatred and bigotry"!
Songs praising freedom from oppression are hardly hatred and bigotry.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 19, 2017, 09:17:49 PM
Songs praising freedom from oppression are hardly hatred and bigotry.
What about songs glorifying the Provisional IRA?
There's no real problem here needing a solution. If the Orange Order have a museum, don't panic, there's lots of different ways of giving tourists a taste of both cultures, narratives or whatever.
Quote from: michaelg on October 19, 2017, 10:02:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 19, 2017, 09:17:49 PM
Songs praising freedom from oppression are hardly hatred and bigotry.
What about songs glorifying the Provisional IRA?
I'm not very familiar with any of those.
Any words of hate or bigotry in them?
Mind you the Provo IRA didn't just appear in a vacuum.
1921 -1969 might have something to do with them?
Quote from: Rossfan on October 19, 2017, 11:36:36 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 19, 2017, 10:02:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 19, 2017, 09:17:49 PM
Songs praising freedom from oppression are hardly hatred and bigotry.
What about songs glorifying the Provisional IRA?
I'm not very familiar with any of those.
Any words of hate or bigotry in them?
Mind you the Provo IRA didn't just appear in a vacuum.
1921 -1969 might have something to do with them?
Listen, we could go round in circles here. I was simply making the point that hatred and bigotry is not a one way street. If you can't accept that, then fair enough.
Need to remember that the Orange Order and the orange culture has a very small percentage of followers in the whole unionist/loyalist population. No figures are published on number of members but turnout for 12th marchers would indicate that the number of members is actually in tens of thousands at the most. Plenty of hangers on of all types, those who enjoy the parades, those who support the ethos and those who are present only for business purposes (although many members are there for business reasons). So, Orange culture is not the same as 'protestant' culture, whatever that might be.
There is a similar reflection of other organisations in the Catholic community, a few thousand AOH members?, Less than 30% of Catholics will have GAA membership?, less than 40% of Catholics are church goers?, etc.
It is very difficult to define culture and attribute it to whole sections of the population. At best cultural organisations are more easily defined and then look at their membership and support in the population.
To be fair michael, you weren't *just* doing that. I'd have no problem accepting that there is hatred and bigotry on both sides, although I would say the bigotry especially is far greater on one side.
But you said something along the lines that going to a Trad music session would expose them to 'bigotry'. I don't know many trad sessions that would be a hive of bigotry, and I also don't know that many rebel songs that would talk about being up to their neck in orange blood or the like. They certainly wouldn't be a common feature in any Trad/Folk session I know of.
You may hear 'Grace', or the 'Bold Fenian Men' or other songs about the struggle for independence, but if that equates to hatred and bigotry then you have different standards than I do :)
PS. The wolfe Tones even sang the 'Sash'.
Quote from: michaelg on October 19, 2017, 05:22:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 18, 2017, 11:44:11 PM
As we don't do hate and bigotry very well I suggest you bring people to a Traditional music session.
Yes, so that they can hear some lovely rebel songs being played. No fan of the OO, but it always grates when Nationalists / Republicans claim hate and bigotry is a one way street.
What sessions are you going to Michael?
Must be in the Felons or somewhere.
I am and always have been confused by Orangeism.I accept that probably the vast majority of its members aren't filled with hatred for Catholics.But they don't seem to realise that ridiculing catholic beliefs (and in that they are joined by many people on this Board) is deeply offensive to catholic people who are serious about their beliefs.Likewise if they are simply a religious organisation why are their utterances invariably political?
I am not offended by Orange parades,and any Orange Order members I have dealt with in ordinary every day life have treated me with the utmost courtesy and friendliness (I concluded a business deal with one the other night where I got everything I asked for immediately!).
I do not Iike some of the bands they engage for marches (though some of the bands at Republican marches wouldn't ever be mistaken for classical music artistes either).I would never consider going to watch a March or Band Parade of any hue,be it Orange or Republican.
Is it the siege mentality that makes people come together in some sort of brotherhood commonality and parade to demonstrate "We are still here" etc.
I am even more confused.
Quote from: michaelg on October 20, 2017, 07:20:08 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 19, 2017, 11:36:36 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 19, 2017, 10:02:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 19, 2017, 09:17:49 PM
Songs praising freedom from oppression are hardly hatred and bigotry.
What about songs glorifying the Provisional IRA?
I'm not very familiar with any of those.
Any words of hate or bigotry in them?
Mind you the Provo IRA didn't just appear in a vacuum.
1921 -1969 might have something to do with them?
Listen, we could go round in circles here. I was simply making the point that hatred and bigotry is not a one way street. If you can't accept that, then fair enough.
I'm quite sure some of "ours" can have hate and bigotry just as some of "yours".
However the Orange type is in your face and in public all the time.
As for culturall things - compare the All Ireland Fleadh to 12th July.
Quote from: Orior on October 18, 2017, 10:25:46 PM
Does anyone know if there is an native Irish equivalent (equal and opposite) to the Orange Order museum?
http://www.orangeheritage.co.uk/museum-schomberg-house/
some might argue the OO is an Irish institution
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 20, 2017, 09:19:07 AM
To be fair michael, you weren't *just* doing that. I'd have no problem accepting that there is hatred and bigotry on both sides, although I would say the bigotry especially is far greater on one side.
But you said something along the lines that going to a Trad music session would expose them to 'bigotry'. I don't know many trad sessions that would be a hive of bigotry, and I also don't know that many rebel songs that would talk about being up to their neck in orange blood or the like. They certainly wouldn't be a common feature in any Trad/Folk session I know of.
You may hear 'Grace', or the 'Bold Fenian Men' or other songs about the struggle for independence, but if that equates to hatred and bigotry then you have different standards than I do :)
PS. The wolfe Tones even sang the 'Sash'.
I only used the trad music session as an example as this was brought up in the same post by the poster who claimed that "we don't do hatred and bigotry".
I appreciate that most trad sessions are not "a hive of bigotry", but in some instances they can be a bit threatening and unwelcoming. By way of example, I was down south working a few years ago and we were in a pub when a session was in full flow. Given our "Nordie" accents and the fact that we didn't know the words to most of the songs, we soon had a number of songs sung at us / for our benefit. Wasn't terribly pleasant.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2017, 10:44:18 AM
Quote from: michaelg on October 20, 2017, 07:20:08 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 19, 2017, 11:36:36 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 19, 2017, 10:02:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 19, 2017, 09:17:49 PM
Songs praising freedom from oppression are hardly hatred and bigotry.
What about songs glorifying the Provisional IRA?
I'm not very familiar with any of those.
Any words of hate or bigotry in them?
Mind you the Provo IRA didn't just appear in a vacuum.
1921 -1969 might have something to do with them?
Listen, we could go round in circles here. I was simply making the point that hatred and bigotry is not a one way street. If you can't accept that, then fair enough.
I'm quite sure some of "ours" can have hate and bigotry just as some of "yours".
However the Orange type is in your face and in public all the time.
As for culturall things - compare the All Ireland Fleadh to 12th July.
No fan of the OO and don't go to parades.
I said "we don't do hate and bigotry very well".
Never claimed we don't do it at all.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2017, 06:50:46 PM
I said "we don't do hate and bigotry very well".
Never claimed we don't do it at all.
Fair enough - Some manage okay!
Quote from: michaelg on October 20, 2017, 06:40:20 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 20, 2017, 09:19:07 AM
To be fair michael, you weren't *just* doing that. I'd have no problem accepting that there is hatred and bigotry on both sides, although I would say the bigotry especially is far greater on one side.
But you said something along the lines that going to a Trad music session would expose them to 'bigotry'. I don't know many trad sessions that would be a hive of bigotry, and I also don't know that many rebel songs that would talk about being up to their neck in orange blood or the like. They certainly wouldn't be a common feature in any Trad/Folk session I know of.
You may hear 'Grace', or the 'Bold Fenian Men' or other songs about the struggle for independence, but if that equates to hatred and bigotry then you have different standards than I do :)
PS. The wolfe Tones even sang the 'Sash'.
I only used the trad music session as an example as this was brought up in the same post by the poster who claimed that "we don't do hatred and bigotry".
I appreciate that most trad sessions are not "a hive of bigotry", but in some instances they can be a bit threatening and unwelcoming. By way of example, I was down south working a few years ago and we were in a pub when a session was in full flow. Given our "Nordie" accents and the fact that we didn't know the words to most of the songs, we soon had a number of songs sung at us / for our benefit. Wasn't terribly pleasant.
Such bullshit. They were probably making sure that you got another reason to maintain the big chip on your shoulder
Quote from: Avondhu star on October 21, 2017, 09:38:51 AM
Quote from: michaelg on October 20, 2017, 06:40:20 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 20, 2017, 09:19:07 AM
To be fair michael, you weren't *just* doing that. I'd have no problem accepting that there is hatred and bigotry on both sides, although I would say the bigotry especially is far greater on one side.
But you said something along the lines that going to a Trad music session would expose them to 'bigotry'. I don't know many trad sessions that would be a hive of bigotry, and I also don't know that many rebel songs that would talk about being up to their neck in orange blood or the like. They certainly wouldn't be a common feature in any Trad/Folk session I know of.
You may hear 'Grace', or the 'Bold Fenian Men' or other songs about the struggle for independence, but if that equates to hatred and bigotry then you have different standards than I do :)
PS. The wolfe Tones even sang the 'Sash'.
I only used the trad music session as an example as this was brought up in the same post by the poster who claimed that "we don't do hatred and bigotry".
I appreciate that most trad sessions are not "a hive of bigotry", but in some instances they can be a bit threatening and unwelcoming. By way of example, I was down south working a few years ago and we were in a pub when a session was in full flow. Given our "Nordie" accents and the fact that we didn't know the words to most of the songs, we soon had a number of songs sung at us / for our benefit. Wasn't terribly pleasant.
Such bullshit. They were probably making sure that you got another reason to maintain the big chip on your shoulder
Yeah, you're right, I obviously imagined it and misheard the numerous 'Up the Ra' chants shouted in our direction.
Quote from: michaelg on October 21, 2017, 10:08:13 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on October 21, 2017, 09:38:51 AM
Quote from: michaelg on October 20, 2017, 06:40:20 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 20, 2017, 09:19:07 AM
To be fair michael, you weren't *just* doing that. I'd have no problem accepting that there is hatred and bigotry on both sides, although I would say the bigotry especially is far greater on one side.
But you said something along the lines that going to a Trad music session would expose them to 'bigotry'. I don't know many trad sessions that would be a hive of bigotry, and I also don't know that many rebel songs that would talk about being up to their neck in orange blood or the like. They certainly wouldn't be a common feature in any Trad/Folk session I know of.
You may hear 'Grace', or the 'Bold Fenian Men' or other songs about the struggle for independence, but if that equates to hatred and bigotry then you have different standards than I do :)
PS. The wolfe Tones even sang the 'Sash'.
I only used the trad music session as an example as this was brought up in the same post by the poster who claimed that "we don't do hatred and bigotry".
I appreciate that most trad sessions are not "a hive of bigotry", but in some instances they can be a bit threatening and unwelcoming. By way of example, I was down south working a few years ago and we were in a pub when a session was in full flow. Given our "Nordie" accents and the fact that we didn't know the words to most of the songs, we soon had a number of songs sung at us / for our benefit. Wasn't terribly pleasant.
Such bullshit. They were probably making sure that you got another reason to maintain the big chip on your shoulder
Yeah, you're right, I obviously imagined it and misheard the numerous 'Up the Ra' chants shouted in our direction.
Michael - if that's the case you were probably very unfortunate to come across a bunch of Neanderthal morons. I've been to trad sessions up and down the country and never heard what you described. I would recommend you try the fleadh ceoil next year in Ennis I think, it's a great experience.
Quote from: Itchy on October 21, 2017, 10:30:55 AM
Michael - if that's the case you were probably very unfortunate to come across a bunch of Neanderthal morons. I've been to trad sessions up and down the country and never heard what you described. I would recommend you try the fleadh ceoil next year in Ennis I think, it's a great experience.
Indeed, such a thing would be very uncommon and rightly so.
Speaking of OO history, I was poking around for some other information and I came across a fact previously unknown to me, that the Arts centre in Birr was originally built as an Orange hall! Offaly interesting.
Quote from: michaelg on October 21, 2017, 10:08:13 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on October 21, 2017, 09:38:51 AM
Quote from: michaelg on October 20, 2017, 06:40:20 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 20, 2017, 09:19:07 AM
To be fair michael, you weren't *just* doing that. I'd have no problem accepting that there is hatred and bigotry on both sides, although I would say the bigotry especially is far greater on one side.
But you said something along the lines that going to a Trad music session would expose them to 'bigotry'. I don't know many trad sessions that would be a hive of bigotry, and I also don't know that many rebel songs that would talk about being up to their neck in orange blood or the like. They certainly wouldn't be a common feature in any Trad/Folk session I know of.
You may hear 'Grace', or the 'Bold Fenian Men' or other songs about the struggle for independence, but if that equates to hatred and bigotry then you have different standards than I do :)
PS. The wolfe Tones even sang the 'Sash'.
I only used the trad music session as an example as this was brought up in the same post by the poster who claimed that "we don't do hatred and bigotry".
I appreciate that most trad sessions are not "a hive of bigotry", but in some instances they can be a bit threatening and unwelcoming. By way of example, I was down south working a few years ago and we were in a pub when a session was in full flow. Given our "Nordie" accents and the fact that we didn't know the words to most of the songs, we soon had a number of songs sung at us / for our benefit. Wasn't terribly pleasant.
Such bullshit. They were probably making sure that you got another reason to maintain the big chip on your shoulder
Yeah, you're right, I obviously imagined it and misheard the numerous 'Up the Ra' chants shouted in our direction.
They heard your Nordie accents? Wtf!? You'll hear northern accents at virtually every trad session down south. What difference are you suggesting that would make? I've been to 1000s of trad sessions and never heard IRA songs or chants once never mind numerous times. Away and bring your bigotry back to wherever you came from as everyone can see through your waffle as your certainly weren't at a trad session if it happened at all!
Could he be mixing a trad session with a Rebs night somewhere?
Might have been a Shinner do (assuming it hapoened)
How did they know Michaeleen and his mates weren't Catholic/Nationalist??
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2017, 07:41:05 PM
Might have been a Shinner do (assuming it hapoened)
How did they know Michaeleen and his mates weren't Catholic/Nationalist??
They didn't know the second verse of The Men Behind the Wire.
Quote from: armaghniac on October 21, 2017, 03:00:36 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 21, 2017, 10:30:55 AM
Michael - if that's the case you were probably very unfortunate to come across a bunch of Neanderthal morons. I've been to trad sessions up and down the country and never heard what you described. I would recommend you try the fleadh ceoil next year in Ennis I think, it's a great experience.
Indeed, such a thing would be very uncommon and rightly so.
Speaking of OO history, I was poking around for some other information and I came across a fact previously unknown to me, that the Arts centre in Birr was originally built as an Orange hall! Offaly interesting.
Offaly and Laois were planted in the 1600s . Portarlington had a big Huguenot population at one stage.
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2017, 05:32:20 PM
Could he be mixing a trad session with a Rebs night somewhere?
The most likely scenario.
Is there an active Orange presence (Halls,Lodges etc) in the South,outwith the Border counties, and Dublin and Wicklow? E.g. In any part of Munster?
Quote from: armaghniac on October 21, 2017, 03:00:36 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 21, 2017, 10:30:55 AM
Michael - if that's the case you were probably very unfortunate to come across a bunch of Neanderthal morons. I've been to trad sessions up and down the country and never heard what you described. I would recommend you try the fleadh ceoil next year in Ennis I think, it's a great experience.
Indeed, such a thing would be very uncommon and rightly so.
Speaking of OO history, I was poking around for some other information and I came across a fact previously unknown to me, that the Arts centre in Birr was originally built as an Orange hall! Offaly interesting.
We disown them. Your man in the castle is one of them. Although, he is the most hated person in Offaly. When the People's Debate was in Offaly, all of the area of land around Birr was "affluent". It was because he owns it all.
My father has been organising traditional singing sessions for over 30years and I have never once experienced rebel songs/ Chants like has been claimed by a previous poster ,
Yeah i have never seen anything like it at traditional sessions at any time either.
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2017, 11:50:56 PM
Is there an active Orange presence (Halls,Lodges etc) in the South,outwith the Border counties, and Dublin and Wicklow? E.g. In any part of Munster?
I know of one or two in Cavan and monaghan but nowhere else. The protestants in the south have become more enlightened than there northern cousins and have rejected sectarianism.
There was something on RTÉ radio some months ago from the archives , early 70's I think.
Interview with a Protestant mither and son from Sligo. When asked if they ever took part in or went North to view Orange parades the reply was
"We're too busy trying to make a livin from a bit o' land for any of that nonsense"
Quote from: Itchy on October 22, 2017, 12:29:21 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2017, 11:50:56 PM
Is there an active Orange presence (Halls,Lodges etc) in the South,outwith the Border counties, and Dublin and Wicklow? E.g. In any part of Munster?
I know of one or two in Cavan and monaghan but nowhere else. The protestants in the south have become more enlightened than there northern cousins and have rejected sectarianism.
Understandable being on the "wrong" side of the border. Anything for a peaceful existence.
Quote from: Itchy on October 22, 2017, 12:29:21 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2017, 11:50:56 PM
Is there an active Orange presence (Halls,Lodges etc) in the South,outwith the Border counties, and Dublin and Wicklow? E.g. In any part of Munster?
I know of one or two in Cavan and monaghan but nowhere else. The protestants in the south have become more enlightened than there northern cousins and have rejected sectarianism.
The one in Cootehill was set on fire few years ago. The ironic thing is a Protestant that done it.
Quote from: mrdeeds on October 22, 2017, 04:02:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 22, 2017, 12:29:21 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2017, 11:50:56 PM
Is there an active Orange presence (Halls,Lodges etc) in the South,outwith the Border counties, and Dublin and Wicklow? E.g. In any part of Munster?
I know of one or two in Cavan and monaghan but nowhere else. The protestants in the south have become more enlightened than there northern cousins and have rejected sectarianism.
The one in Cootehill was set on fire few years ago. The ironic thing is a Protestant that done it.
Wouldn't be the first time that has occured.
Quote from: Itchy on October 22, 2017, 12:29:21 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2017, 11:50:56 PM
Is there an active Orange presence (Halls,Lodges etc) in the South,outwith the Border counties, and Dublin and Wicklow? E.g. In any part of Munster?
I know of one or two in Cavan and monaghan but nowhere else. The protestants in the south have become more enlightened than there northern cousins and have rejected sectarianism.
If a group.is part of a larger rational unit it will be rational.But if it is the majority it may be nuts.
This works for Jews in the US vs Jews in Israel and Protestants in the Sout vs Protestants in NI.
Has this turned into a "pesky protestants" thread??
No.I am genuinely interested by the reach of Orangeism,as distinct from Protestantism in the South,beyond the border counties.I know there are lodges in Wicklow and Dublin,but are there any lodges in Munster,or Leinster counties other than Dublin or Wicklow,Galway,Mayo,Roscommon?
I think we can safely say none in Ros, Mayo or Galway.
Wouldn't think there's any in Sligo but it is rumoured there's one in Laythrum.
Good few Protestants round Mohill but I suspect they're too busy making a living to be bothered with bigotry or disrespecting their neighbours.
There was a statue of paedophile king Billy up in Boyle but he was removed in the 30s. The pillar is still there though.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 22, 2017, 09:09:11 PM
I think we can safely say none in Ros, Mayo or Galway.
Wouldn't think there's any in Sligo but it is rumoured there's one in Laythrum.
Good few Protestants round Mohill but I suspect they're too busy making a living to be bothered with bigotry or disrespecting their neighbours.
There was a statue of paedophile king Billy up in Boyle but he was removed in the 30s. The pillar is still there though.
No hatred or bigotry evident in this post then?
Here's my completely unbiased report, innit?
In order to quell those pesky Irish natives after the Nine Year war in 1603, the English decided to plant their own in the troublesome counties. So local chieftains had to either bend the knee to the Queen or leave, while English and Scottish landlords were gifted their land. The new landlords were to bring their own tenants from England or Scotland. Any incumbent native Irish tenants could also stay on the land if they stopped speaking Irish, changed their name to the english version, dropped any Irish customs etc etc.
This all worked fine and dandy (except for the 1641 rebellion and a kerfuffle in 1690) until the penal laws were relaxed and the native Irish were allowed to keep weapons. Protestants weren't having that so they raided the catholic homes.
When catholics retaliated, the good old protestant arrogance was born, they stepped up their attacks on catholic homes and at the same time formed the Orange Order.
Quote from: michaelg on October 22, 2017, 09:28:59 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 22, 2017, 09:09:11 PM
I think we can safely say none in Ros, Mayo or Galway.
Wouldn't think there's any in Sligo but it is rumoured there's one in Laythrum.
Good few Protestants round Mohill but I suspect they're too busy making a living to be bothered with bigotry or disrespecting their neighbours.
There was a statue of paedophile king Billy up in Boyle but he was removed in the 30s. The pillar is still there though.
No hatred or bigotry evident in this post then?
Show where you think there is?
The Orange Parade in Rossnowlagh Donegal every year seems to be very peaceful and without controversy,with no offence given or taken.Are there any other parades in the South?
Quote from: T Fearon on October 22, 2017, 11:05:22 PM
The Orange Parade in Rossnowlagh Donegal every year seems to be very peaceful and without controversy,with no offence given or taken.Are there any other parades in the South?
I believe most of the OO members in South go north for the parades, a lot to rossnoelagh. Never heard of one in recent memory in Cavan anyway.
Quote from: Orior on October 22, 2017, 09:39:21 PM
Here's my completely unbiased report, innit?
In order to quell those pesky Irish natives after the Nine Year war in 1603, the English decided to plant their own in the troublesome counties. So local chieftains had to either bend the knee to the Queen or leave, while English and Scottish landlords were gifted their land. The new landlords were to bring their own tenants from England or Scotland. Any incumbent native Irish tenants could also stay on the land if they stopped speaking Irish, changed their name to the english version, dropped any Irish customs etc etc.
This all worked fine and dandy (except for the 1641 rebellion and a kerfuffle in 1690) until the penal laws were relaxed and the native Irish were allowed to keep weapons. Protestants weren't having that so they raided the catholic homes.
When catholics retaliated, the good old protestant arrogance was born, they stepped up their attacks on catholic homes and at the same time formed the Orange Order.
Same thing happened in late 60s when Catholics looked for equal rights. Protestants have generally lay dormant (well, except for their general everyday keeping Catholics in their place) when Catholics "knew their place".
Quote from: michaelg on October 22, 2017, 09:28:59 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 22, 2017, 09:09:11 PM
I think we can safely say none in Ros, Mayo or Galway.
Wouldn't think there's any in Sligo but it is rumoured there's one in Laythrum.
Good few Protestants round Mohill but I suspect they're too busy making a living to be bothered with bigotry or disrespecting their neighbours.
There was a statue of paedophile king Billy up in Boyle but he was removed in the 30s. The pillar is still there though.
No hatred or bigotry evident in this post then?
The only reason I can find you considering that statement as bigotry is his referring to King Billy in such a way but I'm sure you'll be happy to elaborate further as to why?
William was partial to sharing his bed with young lads.
Historical fact.
2 relations of mine are married to C of I people 1 from Leitrim 1 from Sligo.
Quote from: Over the Bar on October 22, 2017, 11:37:36 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 22, 2017, 09:28:59 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 22, 2017, 09:09:11 PM
I think we can safely say none in Ros, Mayo or Galway.
Wouldn't think there's any in Sligo but it is rumoured there's one in Laythrum.
Good few Protestants round Mohill but I suspect they're too busy making a living to be bothered with bigotry or disrespecting their neighbours.
There was a statue of paedophile king Billy up in Boyle but he was removed in the 30s. The pillar is still there though.
No hatred or bigotry evident in this post then?
The only reason I can find you considering that statement as bigotry is his referring to King Billy in such a way but I'm sure you'll be happy to elaborate further as to why?
The statement in bold above implies that all Orangemen are bigots and disrespect their neighbours. Do you not think that that's a bit of a broad brush? This is particularly tenuous assertion when presumably the poster lives nowhere near NI and is unlikely to know any Orangemen personally. Therefore, I would contend that the poster is displaying bigotry by labelling all Orangemen as bigots who disrespect ther neighbours.
My assessment of a Orangeism is a brotherhood rooted in community,which does a lot of good in that community.I do not think generally it parades to give offence,its more to demonstrate the strength of the brotherhood,and I accept these parades can be colourful and enjoyable for those who participate and attend.A bit like the GAA,membership is handed on at a very early age to each generation.
However its overtly political stance,equating to hardline unionism,and its frequent utterances against Catholicism,and other activities like conspiring in instances to ensure lands and property do not fall into the hands of Catholics is distasteful to say the least.For these reasons I would say the Order does not appeal to the vast majority of moderate Protestants even (its membership has dwindled from a six figure sum to a mere 30,000 today) and I have not witnessed any positive activity or statements even from it which have contributed in any way to peace and reconciliation.
In short its contribution to overall society here must be objectively regarded as negative.
The thing that is striking up North is what Protestant political culture is made up of. King Billy is really important. There is no equivalent for catholic Irish. There can't be. Because there is no period of history that is definitive. Ní uasal agus íseal ach thuas seal agus thíos seal . An icon who represents Protestant domination is out of touch now.
Then the symbols. The Queen . The poppy. The Somme.
War.
Nobody in England cares about the Somme. Society has moved on and become more inclusive. Nobody cares about hating Fenians either.
People in the London elite think the DUP are fruitcakes.
As far as I'm aware I don't know any members of the Ku Klux Klan but I'd hazard a fairly accurate guess that all it's members are racists.
Quote from: michaelg on October 23, 2017, 07:29:34 AM
Quote from: Over the Bar on October 22, 2017, 11:37:36 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 22, 2017, 09:28:59 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 22, 2017, 09:09:11 PM
I think we can safely say none in Ros, Mayo or Galway.
Wouldn't think there's any in Sligo but it is rumoured there's one in Laythrum.
Good few Protestants round Mohill but I suspect they're too busy making a living to be bothered with bigotry or disrespecting their neighbours.
There was a statue of paedophile king Billy up in Boyle but he was removed in the 30s. The pillar is still there though.
No hatred or bigotry evident in this post then?
The only reason I can find you considering that statement as bigotry is his referring to King Billy in such a way but I'm sure you'll be happy to elaborate further as to why?
The statement in bold above implies that all Orangemen are bigots and disrespect their neighbours. Do you not think that that's a bit of a broad brush? This is particularly tenuous assertion when presumably the poster lives nowhere near NI and is unlikely to know any Orangemen personally. Therefore, I would contend that the poster is displaying bigotry by labelling all Orangemen as bigots who disrespect ther neighbours.
The OO is probably transphobic as well.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 23, 2017, 09:37:53 AM
As far as I'm aware I don't know any members of the Ku Klux Klan but I'd hazard a fairly accurate guess that all it's members are racists.
You are the 2nd poster to compare the OO with the KKK, yet you still contend that "we don't do hatred and bigotry very well".
Your post above implies that you can "accurately guess" that all OO members are bigots. Can you not see how holding such a prejudicial view means that you are the one who could be accused of bigotry?
When the OO issues statements
condemning the placing of their neighbours' National flag on illegal bonfires,
Condemning burning photos of their neighbours' political representatives on illegal bonfires
Condemning bands who take part in their parades playing offensive
music outside Catholic Churches
Condemning the louts who attach themselves to Orange parades
And requesting that all of the above disgraceful activities cease.
Telling us they've terminated the membership of the terrorist who drove a car into a crowd of people
I might well start to view them somewhat more favourably.
Until then I will hold the view that the OO is a bigoted anti Catholic organisation and reasonably believe that obviously the males who belong to it must share those views.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 23, 2017, 05:07:35 PM
When the OO issues statements
condemning the placing of their neighbours' National flag on illegal bonfires,
Condemning burning photos of their neighbours' political representatives on illegal bonfires
Condemning bands who take part in their parades playing offensive
music outside Catholic Churches
Condemning the louts who attach themselves to Orange parades
And requesting that all of the above disgraceful activities cease.
Telling us they've terminated the membership of the terrorist who drove a car into a crowd of people
I might well start to view them somewhat more favourably.
Until then I will hold the view that the OO is a bigoted anti Catholic organisation and reasonably prejudicially believe that obviously the males who belong to it must share those views.
Fixed that there for you.
Quote from: seafoid on October 23, 2017, 09:21:15 AM
The thing that is striking up North is what Protestant political culture is made up of. King Billy is really important. There is no equivalent for catholic Irish. There can't be. Because there is no period of history that is definitive. Ní uasal agus íseal ach thuas seal agus thíos seal . An icon who represents Protestant domination is out of touch now.
Then the symbols. The Queen . The poppy. The Somme.
War.
Nobody in England cares about the Somme. Society has moved on and become more inclusive. Nobody cares about hating Fenians either.
People in the London elite think the DUP are fruitcakes.
You refer to symbols of unionism and suggest nationalists have no equivalent as they are not needed?
Surely all national groups have their founding myths?
For nationalists, the blood sacrifice is the Easter Rising. Unionists, the Somme.
Nationalists have founding fathers like Pearse and Connolly. Unionists have Carson and Craig.
Nationalists have founding documents like the Proclamation. Unionists have the Covenant.
Nationalists have historic figures like Tone and Emmett. Unionists have King William.
I personally don't see anything particularly desperate or anachronistic about it. I'm sure if I had sufficient knowledge of other nations I'd be able to point to the same sorts of things.
Quote from: michaelg on October 23, 2017, 06:04:15 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 23, 2017, 05:07:35 PM
When the OO issues statements
condemning the placing of their neighbours' National flag on illegal bonfires,
Condemning burning photos of their neighbours' political representatives on illegal bonfires
Condemning bands who take part in their parades playing offensive
music outside Catholic Churches
Condemning the louts who attach themselves to Orange parades
And requesting that all of the above disgraceful activities cease.
Telling us they've terminated the membership of the terrorist who drove a car into a crowd of people
I might well start to view them somewhat more favourably.
Until then I will hold the view that the OO is a bigoted anti Catholic organisation and reasonably prejudicially believe that obviously the males who belong to it must share those views.
Fixed that there for you.
A further revision.
Quote from: Hardy on October 23, 2017, 06:48:56 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 23, 2017, 06:04:15 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 23, 2017, 05:07:35 PM
When the OO issues statements
condemning the placing of their neighbours' National flag on illegal bonfires,
Condemning burning photos of their neighbours' political representatives on illegal bonfires
Condemning bands who take part in their parades playing offensive
music outside Catholic Churches
Condemning the louts who attach themselves to Orange parades
And requesting that all of the above disgraceful activities cease.
Telling us they've terminated the membership of the terrorist who drove a car into a crowd of people
I might well start to view them somewhat more favourably.
Until then I will hold the view that the OO is a bigoted anti Catholic organisation and reasonably prejudicially believe that obviously the males who belong to it must share those views.
Fixed that there for you.
A further revision.
How can the OO be anything except sectarian when their aim is protestant ascendancy?
Quote from: seafoid on October 23, 2017, 09:21:15 AM
Nobody in England cares about the Somme.
Not sure if I agree with this part. I lived in England for long enough to feel that they're obsessed with the two world wars. Other than the Falklands and 1966 World Cup there's not a lot else in recent history that they can point to as a victory, hence the obsession with the Germans.
(https://media2.fdncms.com/sfweekly/imager/no-worries-basil-its-fair-use/u/original/2657782/fawlty.jpg)
Quote from: Orior on October 23, 2017, 08:55:06 PM
Quote from: Hardy on October 23, 2017, 06:48:56 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 23, 2017, 06:04:15 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 23, 2017, 05:07:35 PM
When the OO issues statements
condemning the placing of their neighbours' National flag on illegal bonfires,
Condemning burning photos of their neighbours' political representatives on illegal bonfires
Condemning bands who take part in their parades playing offensive
music outside Catholic Churches
Condemning the louts who attach themselves to Orange parades
And requesting that all of the above disgraceful activities cease.
Telling us they've terminated the membership of the terrorist who drove a car into a crowd of people
I might well start to view them somewhat more favourably.
Until then I will hold the view that the OO is a bigoted anti Catholic organisation and reasonably prejudicially believe that obviously the males who belong to it must share those views.
Fixed that there for you.
A further revision.
How can the OO be anything except sectarian when their aim is protestant ascendancy?
Is the Catholic Church sectarian for wanting to promote Catholicism?
The protestant ascendency is not the same as protestantism.
Of course not but in the absence of seeing anything recently in the news which would lead me to believe that the Orange Order wanted a return of the Penal Laws, I assumed the problem with the Orange was simply their exclusion of Catholics, which is hardly surprising seeing as they ARE a pro-Reformation group.
Also the previous poster said their aim was "Protestant ascendancy" not "the Protestant ascendancy". Call me pedantic but I think the missing "the" indicates I may be right to assume that Orior didn't mean that he believes the OO are looking for a return to "the" Protestant ascendancy.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 23, 2017, 10:00:15 PM
The protestant ascendency is not the same as protestantism.
Also, let me word my question differently now based on your point.
Is the Catholic Church sectarian for wanting to promote Catholic ascendancy?
If you are a protestant and are in the orange order and you fall in love with and marry a Catholic you are expelled, is that correct? If so it is a sectarian and intolerant organisation.
What catholic ascendancy? Catholics were barred from taking the British throne last time I checked. In Ireland we're a long way from any catholic equivalent of the old protestant ascendancy. Sure the catholic church still has a little too much influence in provision of public services in the free state (and the north for that matter), but to say that there's a catholic "ascendency" is a bit of a stretch.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 23, 2017, 10:30:41 PM
What catholic ascendancy? Catholics were barred from taking the British throne last time I checked. In Ireland we're a long way from any catholic equivalent of the old protestant ascendancy. Sure the catholic church still has a little too much influence in provision of public services in the free state (and the north for that matter), but to say that there's a catholic "ascendency" is a bit of a stretch.
Definition of ascendancy: influence, power. Tell me the Catholic Church don't want that. Or anyone for that matter.
Quote from: Itchy on October 23, 2017, 10:29:57 PM
If you are a protestant and are in the orange order and you fall in love with and marry a Catholic you are expelled, is that correct? If so it is a sectarian and intolerant organisation.
To my knowledge that is incorrect. If you become a Catholic you obviously no longer subscribe to the core beliefs of a pro-Reformation organisation and so would be barred, but afaik if you remain part of the "reformed" faiths there would be nothing to bar you from remaining a member.
Isn't attending Mass (say for a Funeral) an automatic expulsion fromthe OO as is marrying a Catholic??
Quote from: Tonto on October 23, 2017, 10:36:51 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 23, 2017, 10:29:57 PM
If you are a protestant and are in the orange order and you fall in love with and marry a Catholic you are expelled, is that correct? If so it is a sectarian and intolerant organisation.
To my knowledge that is incorrect. If you become a Catholic you obviously no longer subscribe to the core beliefs of a pro-Reformation organisation and so would be barred, but afaik if you remain part of the "reformed" faiths there would be nothing to bar you from remaining a member.
Well my understanding is that is correct. Not allowed to attend a Catholic service either. Remember they threatened to expel Trimble for attending the funeral of them poor kids who were burned to death years ago. It's a nasty sectarian intolerant organisation. I would stop short of calling every member a bigot but I would say that if you belong to a sectarian organisation and you yourself are not sectarian, well them you are a fool instead.
The attendance at catholic mass is flouted daily for funerals etc.There were a few OO members at both my parents' funerals,some Unionist councillors even.
It's that frequent the OO itself is moving towards accepting it on the basis that mass attendance is not contravening their forbiddance of "actively partaking in catholic worship" but is merely showing respect for the deceased,or the couple getting married etc by "attending not partaking!"
It is a fact if you are a Protestant you oppose Catholicism and vice Versa.I am opposed to integrated education and am extremely uncomfortable attending Protestant worship,which I consider to be heresy,but I do not intend any offence to Protestant people nor am I a bigot.
Quote from: Itchy on October 23, 2017, 11:28:46 PM
Quote from: Tonto on October 23, 2017, 10:36:51 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 23, 2017, 10:29:57 PM
If you are a protestant and are in the orange order and you fall in love with and marry a Catholic you are expelled, is that correct? If so it is a sectarian and intolerant organisation.
To my knowledge that is incorrect. If you become a Catholic you obviously no longer subscribe to the core beliefs of a pro-Reformation organisation and so would be barred, but afaik if you remain part of the "reformed" faiths there would be nothing to bar you from remaining a member.
Well my understanding is that is correct. Not allowed to attend a Catholic service either. Remember they threatened to expel Trimble for attending the funeral of them poor kids who were burned to death years ago. It's a nasty sectarian intolerant organisation. I would stop short of calling every member a bigot but I would say that if you belong to a sectarian organisation and you yourself are not sectarian, well them you are a fool instead.
Why ask a question if you think you know the answer or are willingly going to discard the answer you don't like anyway?
Quote from: T Fearon on October 24, 2017, 05:41:37 AM
The attendance at catholic mass is flouted daily for funerals etc.There were a few OO members at both my parents' funerals,some Unionist councillors even.
It's that frequent the OO itself is moving towards accepting it on the basis that mass attendance is not contravening their forbiddance of "actively partaking in catholic worship" but is merely showing respect for the deceased,or the couple getting married etc by "attending not partaking!"
It is a fact if you are a Protestant you oppose Catholicism and vice Versa.I am opposed to integrated education and am extremely uncomfortable attending Protestant worship,which I consider to be heresy,but I do not intend any offence to Protestant people nor am I a bigot.
Surely considering it as heresy is worse than bigotry
Not at all.Considering a concept as heresy does not equate to bigotry,which is extreme irrational hatred.
Quote from: T Fearon on October 24, 2017, 08:57:20 AM
Not at all.Considering a concept as heresy does not equate to bigotry,which is extreme irrational hatred.
You couldn't make it up.
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu206/Hardyarse/inquisition1.png) (http://s648.photobucket.com/user/Hardyarse/media/inquisition1.png.html)
Quote from: Tonto on October 24, 2017, 07:12:14 AM
Quote from: Itchy on October 23, 2017, 11:28:46 PM
Quote from: Tonto on October 23, 2017, 10:36:51 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 23, 2017, 10:29:57 PM
If you are a protestant and are in the orange order and you fall in love with and marry a Catholic you are expelled, is that correct? If so it is a sectarian and intolerant organisation.
To my knowledge that is incorrect. If you become a Catholic you obviously no longer subscribe to the core beliefs of a pro-Reformation organisation and so would be barred, but afaik if you remain part of the "reformed" faiths there would be nothing to bar you from remaining a member.
Well my understanding is that is correct. Not allowed to attend a Catholic service either. Remember they threatened to expel Trimble for attending the funeral of them poor kids who were burned to death years ago. It's a nasty sectarian intolerant organisation. I would stop short of calling every member a bigot but I would say that if you belong to a sectarian organisation and you yourself are not sectarian, well them you are a fool instead.
Why ask a question if you think you know the answer or are willingly going to discard the answer you don't like anyway?
You said "to my knowledge that is incorrect" - hardly a strong concise answer to the question. A quick google search tells me it is in the rules and confirms that what I had understood over the years. Also, if it is in the rules and is regularly flaunted is no excuse. If you don't want to be considered a sectarian bigoted organisation, don't have sectarian bigoted rules.
By the way, its no skin of my nose what catholics or protestants get up to. I have equal disinterest in both religions so not a matter of me "liking" an answer.
The Orange Order and it's inherent bigotry is not confined to its religious outlook it must be remembered, it is manifested culturally as well so while they may have bigoted rules that are "flaunted" when it comes to going to a Catholic mass, this does not disguise other sectarian aspects of the organisation eg the selling of land/and or property to Catholics, doing business with someone from a Unionist background before someone from a nationalist background, and the direct and indirect influencing of politicians at all levels in order to further their own agenda. It is in many ways a bigoted and outdated organisation
The saddest sight I saw in many a year was the day all the leaders of different strands of Unionism were lined up by a "Grand Master" to sign some OO declaration about parading where they liked.
Around 3 years ago if memory serves me.
Very few real positive messages here about the OO, so I'll suggest a few.
- They sometimes do raise money for charity.
- They help unionists develop their own identity and fills some of their cultural deficit.
- Some of their marching band music is okay
If was all like Rossnowlagh, then they would be in a much better place (have I just said they should all move to Donegal? lol)
Quote from: Orior on October 24, 2017, 01:52:45 PM
Very few real positive messages here about the OO, so I'll suggest a few.
- They sometimes do raise money for charity.
- They help unionists develop their own identity and fills some of their cultural deficit.
- Some of their marching band music is okay
If was all like Rossnowlagh, then they would be in a much better place (have I just said they should all move to Donegal? lol)
Alexei Sayle: that everything would have been okay if Hitler had invaded Poland for charity
The essence of the Orange Order is anti catholicism. King Billy was allied with the catholic Hapsburgs. The Liverpool Herald in the 1840s was virulently Orange "It is remarkable that the lower order of Irish Papis are the filthiest beings in the habitable globe. They abound in dirt and vermin and have no care for anything but self gratification that would degrade the brute creation".
Emigrant Irish communities in the US have nothing in terms of an oral tradition according to Maureen Dezell. "There seems to be a strong element of self abnegation in the typical Irish catholic upbringing " per Thomas O'Connor. The Protestant ascendancy was rotten and the OO continued it in NI. The parades kept the croppies down. Today the OO is strongly pro Brexit. This is suicidal.