Eighth Amendment poll

Started by Farrandeelin, May 01, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?

Yes
47 (21.8%)
Yes but have no vote
73 (33.8%)
No
40 (18.5%)
No but have no vote
36 (16.7%)
Undecided
20 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 216

Voting closed: May 24, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

omaghjoe

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 10:25:10 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 09:47:57 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 09:19:50 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.

No, because I don't trust the legislators, and giving them the power to do what they are proposing to do is what I am uneasy with.

So retain the 8th amendment where the foetus has an equal right to life to that of the mother. Which you don't agree with. That's what you're saying? I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. Especially as to do so will not prevent one termination that is happening anyway.....it will just happen in Britain or using illegally imported pills. That's failing to address the issue in my opinion. The constitution is a black and white document....it is simply the wrong vehicle to address such a complex and difficult issue as this.

I understand not trusting politicians (and very often it would be yourself who would be asking me - what other alternative system is there?) but in this process there has been a citizens assembly which considered many contributions and came up with recommendations. The proposed legislation is along the lines of these recommendations. If there was a process of developing legislation that was less controlled by politicians in this country I certainly can't remember it. I know people will say the power to legislate still remains afterwards but does anyone really think there will be any political appetite to revisit this? It has taken 35 years to address a glaring mistake in the 8th amendment.

You're putting words in my mouth.

I would prefer to retain the current amendment rather than completely remove it, thus leaving the way open for the 12 week abortion (and beyond if politicians legislate for it in the future).

However, if the referendum was phrased differently, and specifically reworded the section in language which addressed those particular scenarios only, then I'd be in favour.

My issue with repealing the 8th is that it is being done in such a way as to leave the door open for legislators to do what they like, and on a topic like this, I am not comfortable with that.

If that makes no sense, well, sorry.

AZ - I'm not putting words in your mouth....that's why I used the question mark.

I suppose we fundamentally disagree on whether the constitution is the correct place to legislate for this issue.

I'd just like to restate that voting No will not stop one termination of the type that is already happening. Women will still go to England. Pills will still be imported. The only people who will suffer are the cases where the woman is too sick or distressed or poor to travel to Britain. I understand most people have sympathy in the difficult cases like health complications and rape but are troubled by the elective terminations. That's very understandable but it's only the difficult cases that will or may not be able to go to Britain that you'll stop by voting No.

Law on its own is not fundamentally about preventing things happening, that is law enforcement. Law is about drawing a line in the sand to say that this is not ok to do in this society.
Law enforcement is a different issue, frequently a law is difficult to enforce/prevent such as traffic offences, but that doesn't make it ok to carry them out and it is certainly no reason to get rid of speed limits.

This vote is not about whether or not you think it is practical to stop abortions taking place, this is vote about whether or not it is ok to end a unique human life with no justification.

I agree that a No vote will unlikely cause the current rate to drop, it will probably still increase but a Yes vote will cause it to skyrocket as the legal line that existed will have disappeared and abortion will have become normalized in society as has happened in other countries which have abortion on request.

omaghjoe

Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
Abortion was common in pre medieval and medieval Ireland and was managed by women.
Changes around the time of the Reformation gave medical and social power to priests.
This film is very interesting. It covers the story from a wider European perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YizdSL2_pMo&t=801s

This link seems to be mostly about witches in France Seafoid, says very little about abortion and certainly doesn't mention the frequency or acceptability of it, tho didnt watch all of it.

But anyway say that it was the case and abortion was frequent, legal and accepted in medieval Ireland. Where does that leave the rationale from the Yes side that the current law is outdated? Using that reasoning then shifting position back to an even more outdated standard would be even worse?

seafoid

Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:35:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
Abortion was common in pre medieval and medieval Ireland and was managed by women.
Changes around the time of the Reformation gave medical and social power to priests.
This film is very interesting. It covers the story from a wider European perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YizdSL2_pMo&t=801s

This link seems to be mostly about witches in France Seafoid, says very little about abortion and certainly doesn't mention the frequency or acceptability of it, tho didnt watch all of it.

But anyway say that it was the case and abortion was frequent, legal and accepted in medieval Ireland. Where does that leave the rationale from the Yes side that the current law is outdated? Using that reasoning then shifting position back to an even more outdated standard would be even worse?

I think on the yes side the avoidable death of Savita was the last straw.
If she had known how the system works she could have gone to England. She would still be around.  But she didn't and she is dead.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

omaghjoe

Quote from: seafoid on May 04, 2018, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:35:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
Abortion was common in pre medieval and medieval Ireland and was managed by women.
Changes around the time of the Reformation gave medical and social power to priests.
This film is very interesting. It covers the story from a wider European perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YizdSL2_pMo&t=801s

This link seems to be mostly about witches in France Seafoid, says very little about abortion and certainly doesn't mention the frequency or acceptability of it, tho didnt watch all of it.

But anyway say that it was the case and abortion was frequent, legal and accepted in medieval Ireland. Where does that leave the rationale from the Yes side that the current law is outdated? Using that reasoning then shifting position back to an even more outdated standard would be even worse?

I think on the yes side the avoidable death of Savita was the last straw.
If she had known how the system works she could have gone to England. She would still be around.  But she didn't and she is dead.

It was an unfortunate mistake that could and should have be avoided if the guidelines were weighed more to the mother.

Introducing on request abortions tho is not an appropriate or proportional response to this case. And is a cynical use of this woman's death to justify what will be a huge increase in the rate of ending unique human lives.

Hound

Quote from: Syferus on May 04, 2018, 12:09:26 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 03, 2018, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 03, 2018, 05:28:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
GAA Board poll now
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
About 54/46 with the undecideds out.
In the real world I'd expect about half the 78% of the population who are  Catholics to be No, (same figure as the Same sex marriage Referendum).
Most SF and loony and not so loony left -about 25% will be Yes
So the other 36% will decide with Yes needing 26 of it.

The percentage of people who are catholic on a census form that let that inform how they're voting in the referfrum is quite low and only applies in massive numbers to older people.

If the Yes side get out the vote this will not even be close. The time for debating with the other side should be over now and the focus needs to be on motivating younger people to vote.
What evidence have you that the young vote are more pro repeal?

https://extra.ie/2018/04/28/news/irish-news/abortion-poll-yes-side-no-side

Next time use Google if you don't accept broadly known facts.
Good man syf. Never resist the chance to be a complete asshole!

"Next time" somebody asks you a simple question why not try and be civil, and give an answer like "here's a link to an interesting article which gives a good breakdown by age, etc..."

But you'll probably blame someone else for you posting like an asshole. If you were a bit more civil, people mightnt wonder if you're touched in the head.


thebigfella

Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 07:08:11 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 04, 2018, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:35:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
Abortion was common in pre medieval and medieval Ireland and was managed by women.
Changes around the time of the Reformation gave medical and social power to priests.
This film is very interesting. It covers the story from a wider European perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YizdSL2_pMo&t=801s

This link seems to be mostly about witches in France Seafoid, says very little about abortion and certainly doesn't mention the frequency or acceptability of it, tho didnt watch all of it.

But anyway say that it was the case and abortion was frequent, legal and accepted in medieval Ireland. Where does that leave the rationale from the Yes side that the current law is outdated? Using that reasoning then shifting position back to an even more outdated standard would be even worse?

I think on the yes side the avoidable death of Savita was the last straw.
If she had known how the system works she could have gone to England. She would still be around.  But she didn't and she is dead.

It was an unfortunate mistake that could and should have be avoided if the guidelines were weighed more to the mother.

Introducing on request abortions tho is not an appropriate or proportional response to this case. And is a cynical use of this woman's death to justify what will be a huge increase in the rate of ending unique human lives.

Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Esmarelda

Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:12:46 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 10:25:10 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 09:47:57 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 09:19:50 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.

No, because I don't trust the legislators, and giving them the power to do what they are proposing to do is what I am uneasy with.

So retain the 8th amendment where the foetus has an equal right to life to that of the mother. Which you don't agree with. That's what you're saying? I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. Especially as to do so will not prevent one termination that is happening anyway.....it will just happen in Britain or using illegally imported pills. That's failing to address the issue in my opinion. The constitution is a black and white document....it is simply the wrong vehicle to address such a complex and difficult issue as this.

I understand not trusting politicians (and very often it would be yourself who would be asking me - what other alternative system is there?) but in this process there has been a citizens assembly which considered many contributions and came up with recommendations. The proposed legislation is along the lines of these recommendations. If there was a process of developing legislation that was less controlled by politicians in this country I certainly can't remember it. I know people will say the power to legislate still remains afterwards but does anyone really think there will be any political appetite to revisit this? It has taken 35 years to address a glaring mistake in the 8th amendment.

You're putting words in my mouth.

I would prefer to retain the current amendment rather than completely remove it, thus leaving the way open for the 12 week abortion (and beyond if politicians legislate for it in the future).

However, if the referendum was phrased differently, and specifically reworded the section in language which addressed those particular scenarios only, then I'd be in favour.

My issue with repealing the 8th is that it is being done in such a way as to leave the door open for legislators to do what they like, and on a topic like this, I am not comfortable with that.

If that makes no sense, well, sorry.

AZ - I'm not putting words in your mouth....that's why I used the question mark.

I suppose we fundamentally disagree on whether the constitution is the correct place to legislate for this issue.

I'd just like to restate that voting No will not stop one termination of the type that is already happening. Women will still go to England. Pills will still be imported. The only people who will suffer are the cases where the woman is too sick or distressed or poor to travel to Britain. I understand most people have sympathy in the difficult cases like health complications and rape but are troubled by the elective terminations. That's very understandable but it's only the difficult cases that will or may not be able to go to Britain that you'll stop by voting No.

Law on its own is not fundamentally about preventing things happening, that is law enforcement. Law is about drawing a line in the sand to say that this is not ok to do in this society.
Law enforcement is a different issue, frequently a law is difficult to enforce/prevent such as traffic offences, but that doesn't make it ok to carry them out and it is certainly no reason to get rid of speed limits.

This vote is not about whether or not you think it is practical to stop abortions taking place, this is vote about whether or not it is ok to end a unique human life with no justification.

I agree that a No vote will unlikely cause the current rate to drop, it will probably still increase but a Yes vote will cause it to skyrocket as the legal line that existed will have disappeared and abortion will have become normalized in society as has happened in other countries which have abortion on request.
Joe, a woman that wants an abortion will justify it to herself. She may also not view it as a human life. These views will not match everyone else's views of course.

Is there evidence that abortion will "sky rocket"? I think this is one of the main problems facing the Yes side; the fear among the undecided that if the 8th is repealed, that there will be mass abortions. Is there anything to suggest this is the case?

seafoid

Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 07:08:11 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 04, 2018, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:35:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
Abortion was common in pre medieval and medieval Ireland and was managed by women.
Changes around the time of the Reformation gave medical and social power to priests.
This film is very interesting. It covers the story from a wider European perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YizdSL2_pMo&t=801s

This link seems to be mostly about witches in France Seafoid, says very little about abortion and certainly doesn't mention the frequency or acceptability of it, tho didnt watch all of it.

But anyway say that it was the case and abortion was frequent, legal and accepted in medieval Ireland. Where does that leave the rationale from the Yes side that the current law is outdated? Using that reasoning then shifting position back to an even more outdated standard would be even worse?

I think on the yes side the avoidable death of Savita was the last straw.
If she had known how the system works she could have gone to England. She would still be around.  But she didn't and she is dead.

It was an unfortunate mistake that could and should have be avoided if the guidelines were weighed more to the mother.

Introducing on request abortions tho is not an appropriate or proportional response to this case. And is a cynical use of this woman's death to justify what will be a huge increase in the rate of ending unique human lives.
It won't. 3000 abortions a year happen anyway. The only question is where they happen
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Syferus

Quote from: seafoid on May 04, 2018, 10:25:52 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 07:08:11 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 04, 2018, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:35:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
Abortion was common in pre medieval and medieval Ireland and was managed by women.
Changes around the time of the Reformation gave medical and social power to priests.
This film is very interesting. It covers the story from a wider European perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YizdSL2_pMo&t=801s

This link seems to be mostly about witches in France Seafoid, says very little about abortion and certainly doesn't mention the frequency or acceptability of it, tho didnt watch all of it.

But anyway say that it was the case and abortion was frequent, legal and accepted in medieval Ireland. Where does that leave the rationale from the Yes side that the current law is outdated? Using that reasoning then shifting position back to an even more outdated standard would be even worse?

I think on the yes side the avoidable death of Savita was the last straw.
If she had known how the system works she could have gone to England. She would still be around.  But she didn't and she is dead.

It was an unfortunate mistake that could and should have be avoided if the guidelines were weighed more to the mother.

Introducing on request abortions tho is not an appropriate or proportional response to this case. And is a cynical use of this woman's death to justify what will be a huge increase in the rate of ending unique human lives.
It won't. 3000 abortions a year happen anyway. The only question is where they happen

And how good the aftercare is. Despite what some fools think, an abortion tends to be a big deal for most people who have one. For many the care shouldn't end with the procedure.

There seems to be a puritanical bent to a lot of northern posters, indeed many of the same people who ridicule the DUP for being backwards.

gallsman

Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?

AZOffaly

Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?

Ah here. That's disingenuous. It's pretty obvious what will happen if the referendum is passed. Just because there's a Yes vote doesn't change the current law, however a Yes vote clearly means that the proposed legislation will be brought through the Oireachteas quickly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least be honest about what a Yes vote means in reality.

gallsman

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?

Ah here. That's disingenuous. It's pretty obvious what will happen if the referendum is passed. Just because there's a Yes vote doesn't change the current law, however a Yes vote clearly means that the proposed legislation will be brought through the Oireachteas quickly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least be honest about what a Yes vote means in reality.

It's absolutely not disingenuous. Removing a constitutional barrier to "introducing abortions on request" is some leap.

Syferus

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?

Ah here. That's disingenuous. It's pretty obvious what will happen if the referendum is passed. Just because there's a Yes vote doesn't change the current law, however a Yes vote clearly means that the proposed legislation will be brought through the Oireachteas quickly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least be honest about what a Yes vote means in reality.

Some fantasists here still think the Dail could go against the wishes of the people and not implement the recommendations they themselves support in the event of a Yes vote, so there is definitely a lack of honesty going round on both sides.

AZOffaly

Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?

Ah here. That's disingenuous. It's pretty obvious what will happen if the referendum is passed. Just because there's a Yes vote doesn't change the current law, however a Yes vote clearly means that the proposed legislation will be brought through the Oireachteas quickly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least be honest about what a Yes vote means in reality.

It's absolutely not disingenuous. Removing a constitutional barrier to "introducing abortions on request" is some leap.

But Gallsman, that's the proposed legislation. Up to 12 week, abortions to be available without any limits. Or do you think that won't come in? Effectively, this is the people voting on that piece of legislation, because if they vote yes, the Government know there's a popular mandate for the legislation as is. As Syf says, people are codding themselves if they think this referendum will not lead to elective abortions up to 12 weeks, within a matter of months.

magpie seanie

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?

Ah here. That's disingenuous. It's pretty obvious what will happen if the referendum is passed. Just because there's a Yes vote doesn't change the current law, however a Yes vote clearly means that the proposed legislation will be brought through the Oireachteas quickly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least be honest about what a Yes vote means in reality.

It's not disingenuous, it's a fact. The referendum is about removing the 8th amendment. That's it.

What will happen afterwards is a separate matter though it has been fairly clearly signposted. There's no trojan horse here but there are clearly two separate things happening. I'd suggest a lot of No campaigners/voters problem is with our elected TD's and Senators, a majority of whom appear ready to change the law if the 8th amendment is removed. In a democracy if there's enough of them to stop or change legislation then that will happen.

The 8th amendment is a horrible blunt instrument that has been a disaster since its inception. It has failed to keep abortion out of Ireland and it has failed women. It has to go.