Would you be in favour of a second tier?

[sid waddell]

Teams have always sought to get a fitness edge

Kerry would go on collective training camps back in the real old days

Heffo got Dublin fitter than anybody else, O'Dwyer followed

Then Donegal and Derry beat Dublin for fitness in '92 and '93

Armagh and Tyrone brought things up a notch, then Donegal under McGuinness did too

So current day S and C is just a continuation of a trend which has existed for as long as the game has existed

The league structures changed in 2008, Dublin have been in an eight team elite Division 1 since 2009

The stays of other Leinster teams in that eight team Division 1 have all been fleeting - perhaps if they had been at that elite level, their S and C would be at a higher level

S and C is all about what the player puts in, yes a good coach can advise you well but they can't make you look like Con O'Callaghan does, the player has to do the work themselves to achieve that

[Milltown Row2]

So getting dicked every weekend won't encourage a player to work harder, it's actually embarrassing and then you watch it later which Spillane and O'Rourke laughing their heads off..

[Seaney]

You could allude to them having a disability you have form.

[sid waddell]

So getting dicked every weekend won't encourage a player to work harder, it's actually embarrassing and then you watch it later which Spillane and O'Rourke laughing their heads off..

That's all the more reason to revamp the league

Kildare and Meath got tanked when they were promoted to Division 1 and went straight back down

In a split Division 1 they'd probably have finished mid-table and could build for the following year

[Owenmoresider]

Sid as an aside. Tg4 Monday is the best Gaa show to watch. You will see more joe McDonagh games, more underage games. The Sunday game is full of analysis by people who generally aren't very good at analysing.

Also on division one benefiting teams Westmeath and down had big falls from division one. Derry too. Cavan are an example I reluctantly use too as they went from one to three in two years

Wexford had the best team of my life in that period. Marty Forde, lyng and now they have ben Brianna who is too good for division four but not a team. Limerick used to be better but John galvin's only come along every so often, likewise Marty force's. Sligo should not be division four and Laois should be nowhere near it. Neither would be if their house was in order.

The hurling for me undoubtedly proves the improvement in standard from these more competitive games.

The Monday TG4 highlights is a good programme but it's very niche, the floating public don't watch it, and it being in Irish doesn't help

So if you want publicity for lower tier competitions, you're going to get much there

Limerick is another example of a team who benefitted from the 2000s league structure - they gained promotion in 2003 and went on to top Division 1B in 2004, only losing to Kerry in by two points in the semi-final

Monaghan's modern rise started with a Division 2 title in 2005

I don't understand how people can say the Super 8s is elitist and reinforces the advantages of Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone, Donegal etc. - it clearly does - but then not see that an eight team NFL Division 1 does the same

In the last decade, six teams have managed to get into Division 1 and stay there for all or most of the time - Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan -  amazingly enough these teams, with the benefit of constant elite Division 1 football, have been the teams constantly reaching the business end of the championship

Teams can reach an eight team Division 1 for a year or two - Down, Roscommon, Cavan, Kildare, Meath have all done so in recent years, but they're generally straight back down, losing most of their matches by big margins - and that knocks them back

The point is, how many Laoises and Limericks and Westmeaths and Wexfords and Sligo and Fermanaghs of the 2000s didn't happen in the 2010s because the league structures helped to cut them off at the root

From 2000-2009, 17 teams reached an All-Ireland semi-final or won a provincial championship

From 2010-2019, that fell to 11

That's not a Dublin problem - that's an across the board competitiveness problem

GAA historian Paul Rouse makes the exact same point I do about this

Have to agree with pretty much all of what sid has said here and in the last few pages.

[imtommygunn]

Teams have always sought to get a fitness edge

Kerry would go on collective training camps back in the real old days

Heffo got Dublin fitter than anybody else, O'Dwyer followed

Then Donegal and Derry beat Dublin for fitness in '92 and '93

Armagh and Tyrone brought things up a notch, then Donegal under McGuinness did too

So current day S and C is just a continuation of a trend which has existed for as long as the game has existed

The league structures changed in 2008, Dublin have been in an eight team elite Division 1 since 2009

The stays of other Leinster teams in that eight team Division 1 have all been fleeting - perhaps if they had been at that elite level, their S and C would be at a higher level

S and C is all about what the player puts in, yes a good coach can advise you well but they can't make you look like Con O'Callaghan does, the player has to do the work themselves to achieve that

S and C is far from only about what a player puts in. A major factor in it is the expertise you have working with you.  You are doing  significant disservice to what good S&C can add here. The better advice you get then the better a program you get and the smarter you will work. Also while you may not believe it there will be many players not from Dublin who work equally as hard as Dublin players and the same could be applied from many "non traditional counties" to "traditional counties". That is not me doubting how hard the Dubs work - that is me saying that they are far from alone in working hard.

You are right that teams will always seek advantages in fitness but gone are the days where all that entails is slogging the guts out of yourself on a running track or doing press ups or the like. There is significant science behind it. That science requires expertise and that expertise costs money. The "weaker" teams will be less prepared to spend this money.So tbh money is a massive factor.

(In addition btw that strength and conditioning leads to being able to play tactics right. Teams in the lower tiers try to play systems like Dublins, Donegals etc and they fail miserably. If you look at the evolution of Donegal under McGuinness they were like they were in 2011 because they at that stage weren't fit enough to play like they did 2012. People seem to forget because of that horrendous 2011 game against Dublin but they played fast counter attacking football in 2012 which was very good at times to watch. They could play defensively and have that fitness to break at speed. In 2011 it's like the lower divisions are - they hadn't the fitness to break the way they were doing so they were just turgidly defensive. That is what the lower divisions look like now)

I would concede that maybe a 1a and 1b from 1 and 2 and a 2a and 2b from divisions 3 and 4 may be something but merging 1 to 4 would be a waste of time. There isn't much between top of division 2 and top of division 3 at the minute. Division 2 is a lottery as to who gets promoted and relegated. To survive the way the leagues are at the minute I think that the team top of division 2 would need to be way better than the rest. I do think the likes of Armagh next year are in for a few lessons. I also think Roscommon knew this the other year so peaked for the league and then were a busted flush come championship then when they did it the other way round and peaked for championship they got relegated in the league. There is just a gap in standard. I don't think personally that is because of the league structures. You do - fair enough but there have been many variables in whatever number of years you think the spread of standard has dropped and I think you're picking one when you can be as sure/unsure of one as another.

[Angelo]

The major issue with S&C is the amount of time you can afford to put in.

For players with a demanding job, who work a significant amount of time and distance away from their own county and are deprived of as much collective and individual attention that players who don't have these demands - it is hugely significants.

No real need for guessing which county is primed to be able to commit the most amount of time S&C work.

[imtommygunn]

Yeah I would agree with that. Also a large part of fitness at that level is the ability to recover. Easier jobs equal more ability to recover. That may not sound like much but recovery is hugely important in s&c as you can train a lot harder due to it.

[Milltown Row2]

The major issue with S&C is the amount of time you can afford to put in.

For players with a demanding job, who work a significant amount of time and distance away from their own county and are deprived of as much collective and individual attention that players who don't have these demands - it is hugely significants.

No real need for guessing which county is primed to be able to commit the most amount of time S&C work.

The county team with the most teachers and students would have the best chance

[Angelo]

The major issue with S&C is the amount of time you can afford to put in.

For players with a demanding job, who work a significant amount of time and distance away from their own county and are deprived of as much collective and individual attention that players who don't have these demands - it is hugely significants.

No real need for guessing which county is primed to be able to commit the most amount of time S&C work.

The county team with the most teachers and students would have the best chance

The county team with the least actual jobs and physically located in their own counties will. How many current Dublin panelists work outside Dublin?

[Milltown Row2]

The major issue with S&C is the amount of time you can afford to put in.

For players with a demanding job, who work a significant amount of time and distance away from their own county and are deprived of as much collective and individual attention that players who don't have these demands - it is hugely significants.

No real need for guessing which county is primed to be able to commit the most amount of time S&C work.

The county team with the most teachers and students would have the best chance

The county team with the least actual jobs and physically located in their own counties will. How many current Dublin panelists work outside Dublin?

I'd asked the same question of Cork Galway and Belfast

[befair]

Not only a 2nd tier, but a third tier also; works at club level and in ladies' football. Finals to be played at Croke Pk on same day or w/e as senior final

[imtommygunn]

The major issue with S&C is the amount of time you can afford to put in.

For players with a demanding job, who work a significant amount of time and distance away from their own county and are deprived of as much collective and individual attention that players who don't have these demands - it is hugely significants.

No real need for guessing which county is primed to be able to commit the most amount of time S&C work.

The county team with the most teachers and students would have the best chance

The county team with the least actual jobs and physically located in their own counties will. How many current Dublin panelists work outside Dublin?

I'd asked the same question of Cork Galway and Belfast

That kind of thing is very far from a silver bullet. It just helps.

[Milltown Row2]

Well Angelo thinks differently..

His arguments have no substance on this

It was never brought up before 2011, because Dublin players obviously worked away from Dublin in those days

[imtommygunn]

Yeah to be honest that kind of thing creates a much deeper problem related to big cities- e.g. for country clubs with players living in the bigger cities. Travelling to training is time consuming and a pain in the arse at times. I know from about 10 years of experience of it lol.