Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.

[michaelg]

See my comment on "armed civilians"

I think you have klind of proved my point.  If they thought they were armed combatants "at war", surely thye have to accept the potential consequences.

[Rossfan]

But the Brits officially only saw it as criminality not a war.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Jesus Mary loo hard to listen to.

[RedHand88]

Merry Christmas everyone.

[michaelg]

But the Brits officially only saw it as criminality not a war.

I'm talking about from the perspective of the "armed  IRA volunteers".  Live by the sword and all that.

[sid waddell]

Big difference between the 1919-22 IRA and the 1970/05 IRA was informers.
The 1919/21 crew infiltrated Dublin Castle and finished off the Cairo gang.
As Trailer said the Provos were seriously infected with informers right up to the top informer catcher.
As for Narrow water and Kilmichael I have no great problem with either - an elite group of professional soldiers were attacked in the middle of a conflict.
Meanwhile time for Sid and Angelo to do a Brian Stanley and stay off GAAboard for a week.

You are aware that this is questionable in the bigger picture as the Brits doubled down on their intelligence post Bloody Sunday and if anything their intelligence improved.

There's a lot of similarities between the treaty talks in 1921 and the peace process in 1994.

Both Collins and the IRA leadership in both periods knew they couldn't win militarily and needed something to show for their efforts and cut a deal that didn't deliver the end goal but was a step further.
Collins got/was given the 26 but the 1994 version was only given the possibility of a UI referendum. The last step will be the biggest and IMO the soundings around a UI referendum are a lot more further forward thanks to Brexit but and I will repeat this that Sinn Fein should not be involved in that process unless they are in government in the South.

When the time comes for a UI referendum Sinn Fein will do more harm than good in getting main stream protestant/unionist buy in for it, the drivers for that need to be from the current incumbents in FF/FG but sadly Martin is worse than useless, and Varadkar lacks a little bit of substance. Coveney is probably the most capable at the minute.

As for the effectiveness of informers in the PIRA, they were undoubtedly there but as the Canary Wharf bomb showed they were still able to get big operations off the ground. There's no doubt in my mind and it is well documented that Major was visited by the big Banks based in the City of London and told to sort it out. The back channels were already in operation and came to the forefront after that.
If the provos had been so badly riddled with informers then there's no way that bomb would have been allowed to happen.

The big problem is FF and FG are both partitionist parties. They have created an elite Catholic ruling class in the 26 and neither FF/FG or the DUP/UUP are interested in giving up their ascendancy status in each of the failed states on this island. SF whether you like them or don't, are the only major political party on this island with an appetite for a United Ireland but they are also by far an away now the biggest political party on this island.

FG/FF subscribe to the Good Friday Agreement

So do Sinn Fein

So if FG/FF are partitionist in your book, then so must Sinn Fein be

Again, not me saying it, you're saying it

My belief is that Sinn Fein are indeed a united Ireland party first and foremost

And though I would like to see a united Ireland, it would be around about bottom of my list of priorities in terms of what I want to see in Irish politics

Bread and butter issues are infinitely more important than irredentism and nationalism

Any hypothetical united Ireland, when it comes, the abolition of the Irish tricolour and Amhran na bhFiann as the national anthem are a starting point

[sid waddell]

Big difference between the 1919-22 IRA and the 1970/05 IRA was informers.
The 1919/21 crew infiltrated Dublin Castle and finished off the Cairo gang.
As Trailer said the Provos were seriously infected with informers right up to the top informer catcher.
As for Narrow water and Kilmichael I have no great problem with either - an elite group of professional soldiers were attacked in the middle of a conflict.
Meanwhile time for Sid and Angelo to do a Brian Stanley and stay off GAAboard for a week.

What are your views on the "shoot to kill" policy"?  Always seemed that it was only ever a "war" when it suited the Republican movement.

In my own personal opinion Michael, as grim as it's sounds, and I'm sure if it was one my family members it might change my view, I would have no problem with the shoot to kill policy if the Brits admitted it was a war. But they don't. So you can't have a government killing their own unarmed citizens.

So okay if they were armed / on "active service"?

Loughgall and Gibraltar were fine by the rules the PIRA played according to

To me they were flat out murder, but the PIRA chose their rules of engagement, so they can hardly complain

[Milltown Row2]

I don't think any Volunteer, in any regime will 'complain' about the position and consequences they could find themselves in, otherwise they wouldn't be taking up arms..

The dirty war here in the north was not done by the rules, shoot to kill went both ways.

Time for reconciliation and truth... only way out of this and will allow people to move on, it won't bring people back but too many people seek closure, once that's done people can grieve and eventually make things right.

[michaelg]

I don't think any Volunteer, in any regime will 'complain' about the position and consequences they could find themselves in, otherwise they wouldn't be taking up arms..

The dirty war here in the north was not done by the rules, shoot to kill went both ways.

Time for reconciliation and truth... only way out of this and will allow people to move on, it won't bring people back but too many people seek closure, once that's done people can grieve and eventually make things right.

Fair enough. Many of those who supported the volunteers, however, seem to take a different view. 

[Milltown Row2]

I don't think any Volunteer, in any regime will 'complain' about the position and consequences they could find themselves in, otherwise they wouldn't be taking up arms..

The dirty war here in the north was not done by the rules, shoot to kill went both ways.

Time for reconciliation and truth... only way out of this and will allow people to move on, it won't bring people back but too many people seek closure, once that's done people can grieve and eventually make things right.

Fair enough. Many of those who supported the volunteers, however, seem to take a different view.

They took 'military' funerals and no doubt within their own community (rightly or wrongly) will have accepted their fate.

[sid waddell]

Christine O'Mahony left Sinn Fein recently over one of Brian Stanley's tweets

Now she's receiving this on Twitter

Lovely stuff, eh

[general_lee]

Sid, you're not really that stupid are you?

[sid waddell]

Sid, you're not really that stupid are you?

I'm sorry?

[Snapchap]

Sid, you're not really that stupid are you?

Lol have you read some of his stuff?

[sid waddell]

Sid, you're not really that stupid are you?

Lol have you read some of his stuff?

The reaction here yet again proves my points

Anybody who doesn't subscribe to the Shinner narrative is automatically "stupid"

Any person with an ounce of human decency would condemn the vile comments aimed at Christine O'Mahony, who had the temerity to leave the party

Shinners' response is to circle the wagons

It proves the bullying problem that exists within the party and its support