Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.

[Rossfan]

I didn't pick random names.
I mentioned 2 servants of the Independent Irish State the 37th anniversary of whose murders by Provo criminals occurs tomorrow.
The other 3 named servants of the State suffered the same fate.
Gary Sheehan would now be 60 and Patrick Kelly would be 72.
His youngest child was 37 in September.

[Snapchap]

I didn't pick random names.
I mentioned 2 servants of the Independent Irish State the 37th anniversary of whose murders by Provo criminals occurs tomorrow.
The other 3 named servants of the State suffered the same fate.
Gary Sheehan would now be 60 and Patrick Kelly would be 72.
His youngest child was 37 in September.

Except that those deaths had nothing to do with the tweet about Narrow Water, did they? They were randomly referenced for petty point scoring.

Another thread on this board relates to new information about events surrounding the killing of two children in Belturbett who's anniversary is imminent. You haven't seemingly found yourself moved enough to comment on those victims though. Like I say, you have your useful victims that you like to talk about and that's as far as your real concern for the conflict goes.

Transparent.

[Look-Up!]

The escalation in violence in the 70's was not for a United Ireland. It was a breaking point in that Catholic frustration finally boiled over and knew they were never going to be treated equally by talking. There may have been some headbangers in the movement where a United Ireland was the only goal but equality was the driving force.

Saying GFA was a surrender is only half right, it was British surrender. Sunningdale in 73 would have achieved power sharing and the violence of the years that followed would never have been. What was the British response to this? Murder of 33 Irish civilians in Monaghan and Dublin in 74. Women and children deliberately targeted in a no warning attack, worst single atrocity in the whole of the Troubles. As clear a statement as ever that they would not tolerate negotiations with vermin.

Major dragged his heels on GFA, he was under political pressure at home and needed Unionist support (all through the years they always had too much influence in the House of Lords and by proxy, British Government policy). But Canary Warf and time finally caught up with them. The money men in London took the decision out of his hands, the financial cost of the IRA campaign was too much. World was changing, Europe was changing, the troubles possibly caused the ECB to not be in London or at least never to be on the negotiating table. The cost was greater than they will ever admit, same as their surrender will never be admitted. But it wasn't talking brought them to the table.

Can't agree with this.

This was an PIRA negotiated surrender. They gave up their guns, disbanded, accepted the unionist veto, accepted the removal of the 26 county State's claim to the 6 counties and recognised crown forces as the legitimate enforcers of the rule of law in the 6 counties. In return they got their prisoners out, were allowed to contest elections in for a place in a mandatory coalition administration with limited powers with a petition of concern stapled to it.

To claim it was about equality is nonsense. Inequality fuelled the sense of oppression surely but the end goal was a United Ireland.

SF performed mental gymnastics to spin the surrender as a victory and executed these gymnastics very well in order to make it palatable to nationalism and ex combatants. The fact the PIRA weren't militarily wiped out is painted as a victory but it clearly wasn't by any objective standard.

The fact SF basically stole the SDLP's policies and place was painted as an electoral revolution, when all it done was spurs a Newtonian reaction in Unionism in the form of the DUP.

To be fair though - the southern parties are unbelievably hypocritical in their approach to SF. Their war was equally as morally justified or unjustified (depending on your position). Sid's point about it becoming less justified after they couldn't win is redundant - neither the old IRA, nor PIRA nor the dissidents ever had any chance of winning in any conventional understanding of the word. .

It was the old IRA's own surrender under the threat of "immediate and terrible war" (an immediate surrender in the case of FG and a slower one in the form of FF) which gave them both their positions in politics in the 26 counties. It provided the moral platform for the PIRA to pursue their campaign (Christ they even considered arming them on occasion) and allowed SF to accept the same broad terms of surrender at the end of the century.

It is beyond irony for them to criticise SF for learning the same lessons they did.

It is also beyond irony for SF to call dissidents "traitors" for doing the same things they did with the exact same electoral legitimacy they had when they were doing it.

I've watched this thread for a while now and both sides haven't a moral leg to stand on.

We can agree to disagree. The only nonsense to me is that the driving force for escalations was the ideal of a United Ireland.

I couldn't give a crap about political ideologies, anyone who votes solely on party name, like it's their hometown football team, I don't get. People can quote SF manifesto all they want but the movement from the 70's on had broad community support and it wasn't for some political ideal. What drove the recruitment, the anger, the support, was watching family members, neighbours, friends, colleagues, club members butchered with no justice to follow. NI is a small place and terror spreads fast.

The total denial of the media and governments as to what was happening also fuelled the anger and sense of inequality. The dogs on the street knew British security forces were in collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries but to say this to most people from the Free State until only very recently they would laugh in your face. To say it to an English person they would have you committed. Media spin is a powerful thing.

A good majority of people in the free state couldn't give a damn, if the truth be known, about the real plight of Catholics in the North and the notion that the troubles was about a united Ireland is an easy sell instead of acknowledging the turning of their backs to the people in the north. It then gives them the self righteous indignation to proclaim 'Violence, not in my name!'.

[grounded]

The escalation in violence in the 70's was not for a United Ireland. It was a breaking point in that Catholic frustration finally boiled over and knew they were never going to be treated equally by talking. There may have been some headbangers in the movement where a United Ireland was the only goal but equality was the driving force.

Saying GFA was a surrender is only half right, it was British surrender. Sunningdale in 73 would have achieved power sharing and the violence of the years that followed would never have been. What was the British response to this? Murder of 33 Irish civilians in Monaghan and Dublin in 74. Women and children deliberately targeted in a no warning attack, worst single atrocity in the whole of the Troubles. As clear a statement as ever that they would not tolerate negotiations with vermin.

Major dragged his heels on GFA, he was under political pressure at home and needed Unionist support (all through the years they always had too much influence in the House of Lords and by proxy, British Government policy). But Canary Warf and time finally caught up with them. The money men in London took the decision out of his hands, the financial cost of the IRA campaign was too much. World was changing, Europe was changing, the troubles possibly caused the ECB to not be in London or at least never to be on the negotiating table. The cost was greater than they will ever admit, same as their surrender will never be admitted. But it wasn't talking brought them to the table.

To say that the PIRA's goal was not a united Ireland is a rewriting of history

At every single juncture of history, the goal of anybody who called themselves the IRA was an all island Irish Republic - the clue is in the title - the Irish Republican Army - not the Irish Equality Army or the Irish Fair Housing Army

The British did not surrender anything with the Good Friday Agreement - they won, completely, there was no downside whatsoever for them

What did the Unionists lose? Sod all, a title of a police force, that's about it

What did the victims of the Troubles lose? Justice

if the british government (won entirely) and the unionists lost( sod all) as part of the GFA why did the majority of the unionist population vote against it?   Baffling

Not really baffling at all

Paranoia and propaganda and unfounded belief in superiority is the answer, hundreds of years of belief that they were the chosen people, superior to the sub-human Catholics

When an ethnic or religious group traditionally has hegemony, any extension of rights or equality to those who have traditionally been oppressed seems like a defeat - because the group identity is based on superiority to the "other" - not equality

It's a collective pathology

That's why they build ever bigger bonfires festooned with"KAT" and burning tricolours, the NI team continues to play God Save The Queen, why they continue to demand the Union Jack be flown from public buildings as a matter of priority and why they demanded Garvaghy Road to march on

The mindset of a lot of Unionists was or is very like the mindset of white racists in America

I see you edited your post to include a Ruth Dudley Edwards reference - thanks for the personal abuse - it's always welcome

Ruth Dudley Edwards is an example of that pathology of mind

But so is calling anybody who says the IRA's mass murder spree was wrong "Ruth Dudley Edwards" also a pathology of the mind

Right, apologies for the RDE ammendment. That was uncalled for. She definitely wouldn't have written the above which would likely see you expelled from the 1922 committee!
       That being said,  i think your stated views on the gfa(that was all i commented on) are simplistic and deliberately provocative to get a rise out of another poster. 
         The GFA was a peace agreement with all sides negotiating and compromising(except DUP). Sure there were fudges and inconsistencies but it was enough that all sides could say they came away with something.
     The fact that the majority of the unionist population voted against it, would lead me to believe anectodotally, that they believed the DUP hype that nationalists got a slightly better deal rather than the whole lot of them being  sectarian bigots(undoubtedly there is a  proportion that are, as you said).
       

Not provocative at all

The PIRA armed campaign was unquestionably a failure and the PIRA failed unquestionably in their one central, all consuming goal, which was to get a united Ireland

What Sinn Fein did "win" was the release of PIRA prisoners which was a bitter pill for Unionists to swallow, but this undoubtedly was for the greater good

Sinn Fein "won" admittance to the political process, they had already done this with the second ceasefire, but this was very much a consolation prize for the failure of the armed campaign

Decommisioning and "the war is over" followed later, these were the rotten cherry on top of the cake of defeat

Who really lost though were the families of the victims on all sides, who saw their murderers let out, some of them reluctantly accepted that this was for the greater good, many more remained very bitter, understandably so

A somewhat functioning, non-sectarian or at least much less sectarian police force, something which had the potential to be built up into a widely respected societal institution if it functioned as intended, was a victory for everybody, for society

But this was not what the PIRA fought for, and indeed for eight years Sinn Fein remained firmly on the fence about this police force

Neither was Stormont what they had fought for, Stormont was one of their problems at the start of the Troubles

What the Sinn Fein side was left with was a route into democratic politics, one that had already been available to them three decades earlier

Three decades of fighting for that?

What was it all for?

Paisley realised towards the end that the DUP had won despite not even taking part in the GFA negotiations and NI's place in the UK was safe as long as the majority of the people of NI wanted that - which was always going to be the case anyway, no matter what happened, fighting or no fighting

That was the central truth about NI from 1922 on

Sid you are a bit of an enigma. I find myself ageeing with you on many of the other threads,(particularly in relation to US politics although the suggestion of arming the black population and encouraging armed resistance is daft). 
        However your posts on this thread are contradictory and at times ludicrous and/or deliberately provocative. I suppose because you feel everyone is ganging up on you? Im not sure.

In relation to the GFA. You have stated that the The British did not surrender anything with the  Agreement - they won, completely, there was no downside whatsoever for them and the unionists lost sod all
       Ergo Sinn Fein lost/failed/were defeated and achieved none of their goals.
        I appreciate that this is a Sinn Fein thread but at the time of the gfa they were only one of the participants ( they werent even the biggest nationalist party in the North at that time). If there was a failure for Nationalism ( i personally dont believe there was as everybody had to compromise) then the SDLP and the Irish governement would surely be equally as culpable?
        Also the idea that the biggest majority of Unionists are knuckle dragging biggots(undoubtedly there is a large minority) is unfair. They went into those negotiations just like the Republicans and Nationalists with specific goals (as you said many of them they acheived).
           With the benefit of hindsight im sure Republicans would do things differently. I dont think the armed conflict furthered the cause of a united Ireland(others may disagree).
         I suppose from a Republican perspective in the early 70's they had seen British withdrawal from a number of other former colonies. Many through military insurrections notably in Malaya, Kenya, Cyprus and Aden.
          They were different times. This place was a boiling cesspit of inequality, sectarianism and violence towards the Catholic minority. It was a perfect shit storm.
      The British were well versed in quelling insurrections in other colonies and used the same techniques as they did in Aden a few years prior exacerbating the situation.
      The Irish governement pretty much stood idly by while the Northern nationalists were victimised. More so after the Dublin Monaghan bombings in 74(which may well have had British agent involvement).
        The whole place decended into a viscious dirty complex conflict in which the British government along with the IRA and other groups all played a part. It took a generation to end and destroyed countless lives.
       You've took the few that it was ok for the IRA to defend their besieged areas in the early 70's but they were wrong to continue. Something i think those in Fine Gael and some sections of the south would find abhorrent since the IRA were all murdering bastards post the war of independence.
          During the war of independence the old IRA were of course  chivalrous and manly and played by the rules of gentlemanly conflict. None of this killing civilian shannanigans.
         You are right about one thing though; the poor innocent victims will more than likely never get any justice be they from the Enniskillen or Belturbet.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

The IRA was infiltrated at every level right to the very top. We never managed to turn one Brit.
We achieved civil rights, not on the back of IRA violence however, we owe more to john Hume probably for that.
SF became SDLP other than sticking to abstentionism.
We still dont have a UI and maybe only stand a better chance ironically on the back of Brexit - SF were always anti-EU up to 3 years ago

Spin masters are good within SF, i will give them that.

[grounded]

The IRA was infiltrated at every level right to the very top. We never managed to turn one Brit.
We achieved civil rights, not on the back of IRA violence however, we owe more to john Hume probably for that.
SF became SDLP other than sticking to abstentionism.
We still dont have a UI and maybe only stand a better chance ironically on the back of Brexit - SF were always anti-EU up to 3 years ago

Spin masters are good within SF, i will give them that.

If that was the case then the Brits kept the entire conflict going for nigh on 30 years with the subsequent loss of life and cost of the conflict. Im not so sure. What would be the objective?
        Definitely infiltrated to very high levels though.
      Bang on about John Hume. A selfless hero in my eyes.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

The IRA was infiltrated at every level right to the very top. We never managed to turn one Brit.
We achieved civil rights, not on the back of IRA violence however, we owe more to john Hume probably for that.
SF became SDLP other than sticking to abstentionism.
We still dont have a UI and maybe only stand a better chance ironically on the back of Brexit - SF were always anti-EU up to 3 years ago

Spin masters are good within SF, i will give them that.

If that was the case then the Brits kept the entire conflict going for nigh on 30 years with the subsequent loss of life and cost of the conflict. Im not so sure. What would be the objective?
        Definitely infiltrated to very high levels though.
      Bang on about John Hume. A selfless hero in my eyes.

They were heavily infiltrated from late 70s onwards, bit by bit, you don't wind the conflict down overnight without full infiltration, I should maybe have phrased that better, I cant be sure the entire leadership was infiltrated, we will never know that, but we must strongly expect that a lot were.

There was a definite major financial payoff or bribe or whatever you want to call it(either that or a realisation they couldnt win)- sad when you are sitting up in the Telstar Bar looking into your pint realising you've been taken for a ride

[marty34]

Just answer the question Sid.

If someone who believes the PIRA campaign in general was justifiable, and that to you means they therefore must view the Enniskillen bomb attack as justifiable, then since you believe the Old IRA campaign on the whole was justifiable, surely we can assume that you regard the Dunmanway Massacre as justifiable?

I don't regard the Dunmanway massacre as justifiable in any way

I have a very dim view of war in general and I have no interest whatsoever in glorifying the War of Independence

Sinn Fein do glorify the 28 year PIRA campaign, they continue to glorify it, many posters here glorify it

You are deliberately trying to blur the lines between war and isolated actions within a war. You have all along implied that if you agreed with the PIRA campaign, that you must therefore believe all actions they carried out during that campaign were justifiable.

I'm merely trying to follow your own logic here. If you believe the Dunmanway Massacre was unjustifiable, by your own terms you must surely then regard the entire Old IRA campaign as unjustifiable? You can't have it both ways here.

Similarly, you say that the PIRA campaign was unjustifiable "because civilian slaughter was an integral part of that campaign", then, given that civilian slaughter was an even more prevelant aspect of the Old IRA campaign, can we assume, again, that you regard the Old IRA campaign as unjustifiable? Again, you can't have it both ways.

Again, you're totally deflecting - I'm not the person glorifying killing people, you and the likes of Angelo are

Youse are the people that have to answer the questions

The IRA killed 644 civilians

They killed 638 British Army or UDR

They killed a miserly 28 Loyalists - the very people who were terrorising their communities

So tell us again how they were "protecting their communities"?

They were in me hole protecting their communities, they were sucking them into a three decades long spiral of death and destruction

Pied pipers

You don't really know much about the north really.

Loyalists, aided and abetted by the UDR/RUC, terrorised the nationalist community.

I see you take the same view as Fianna Gael.

[general_lee]

The IRA was infiltrated at every level right to the very top. We never managed to turn one Brit.
We achieved civil rights, not on the back of IRA violence however, we owe more to john Hume probably for that.
SF became SDLP other than sticking to abstentionism.
We still dont have a UI and maybe only stand a better chance ironically on the back of Brexit - SF were always anti-EU up to 3 years ago

Spin masters are good within SF, i will give them that.

Why would you need to turn any Brits when you're Infiltrated at every level up to the top from the 70s onwards and still able to blow up the city of London.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

The IRA was infiltrated at every level right to the very top. We never managed to turn one Brit.
We achieved civil rights, not on the back of IRA violence however, we owe more to john Hume probably for that.
SF became SDLP other than sticking to abstentionism.
We still dont have a UI and maybe only stand a better chance ironically on the back of Brexit - SF were always anti-EU up to 3 years ago

Spin masters are good within SF, i will give them that.

Why would you need to turn any Brits when you're Infiltrated at every level up to the top from the 70s onwards and still able to blow up the city of London.

That was a good operation but to say we blew up the city of London is a stretch, my point on the Brits is that they never embarrassed themselves by switching sides

[Angelo]

The IRA was infiltrated at every level right to the very top. We never managed to turn one Brit.
We achieved civil rights, not on the back of IRA violence however, we owe more to john Hume probably for that.
SF became SDLP other than sticking to abstentionism.
We still dont have a UI and maybe only stand a better chance ironically on the back of Brexit - SF were always anti-EU up to 3 years ago

Spin masters are good within SF, i will give them that.

Why would you need to turn any Brits when you're Infiltrated at every level up to the top from the 70s onwards and still able to blow up the city of London.

That was a good operation but to say we blew up the city of London is a stretch, my point on the Brits is that they never embarrassed themselves by switching sides

How would that work?

The Brits were able to infiltrate hoods to join the Provos or they were able to threathen with prison sentences or through other state branches.

The Provos on the other hand were an outlawed paramilitary organisation for an oppressed minority community. Tell me how getting Brits to switch sides would work?

[grounded]

The IRA was infiltrated at every level right to the very top. We never managed to turn one Brit.
We achieved civil rights, not on the back of IRA violence however, we owe more to john Hume probably for that.
SF became SDLP other than sticking to abstentionism.
We still dont have a UI and maybe only stand a better chance ironically on the back of Brexit - SF were always anti-EU up to 3 years ago

Spin masters are good within SF, i will give them that.

Why would you need to turn any Brits when you're Infiltrated at every level up to the top from the 70s onwards and still able to blow up the city of London.

Thats it on a nutshell. If you believe that they knew all involved then the following would be entirely true including the last paragraph which i dont believe it was.
        A secret branch of the british military intelligence operated for nigh on 30 years during the conflict here. They operated independently of the various British goverments but received tacit approval for their activities.
           (Though never enough to implicate any of the politicians in any wrong doing). In any event under the official secrets act all information to be locked away for 75 years+ or until nobody is alive to give a shit.
        They entirely directed operations or were certainly aware of nearly all Loyalist paramilitary activity including the targetting of suspected Republicans, nationalist civilians,  and even members of the judiciary. 
           They had agents/moles at many levels in the irish republic's judiciary and civil service and in the irish political elite and news media.
          They infiltrated the Republican movement from the outset running agents and informers right to the highest level.
            They knew enough of the active participants to arrest all those involved in the Republican movement in the late 70's early 80's but allowed the killing to continue.
         If it was true why did they keep the conflict going?
     Was it like a self preservation thing to justify their continued existence in an era where Britains other foreign colonies/interests had all but dissappeared.
       

[Look-Up!]

Whether the SDLP could have achieved civil rights we'll never know. You cannot deny the reluctance of Unionists to come to the talking table, in fact the notion of it was always met with extreme violence- The bombing of Belfast and ousting of O'Neill, the killing of their own like George Forrest, reaction to Sunningdale and bombing of Dublin. Many nationalist communities in the north chose to stand up for themselves by picking up arms as their best option. It's easy to judge and condemn when it's not your own children you're burying.

SF are good at spin same as every political party. It's the name of the game. But one thing they have called for is a Truth and Reconciliation Commission (call it a bluff if you like) which was met with deaf ears. It's something I would have loved to see and for the full truths to come out. I wouldn't have cared if the likes of McGuinness and Adams had spent the rest of their existence in a deep dungeon as long as they had plenty of company to rot with, from Unionist and Tory politicians and high ranking officials from the British security services.

[Angelo]

Whether the SDLP could have achieved civil rights we'll never know. You cannot deny the reluctance of Unionists to come to the talking table, in fact the notion of it was always met with extreme violence- The bombing of Belfast and ousting of O'Neill, the killing of their own like George Forrest, reaction to Sunningdale and bombing of Dublin. Many nationalist communities in the north chose to stand up for themselves by picking up arms as their best option. It's easy to judge and condemn when it's not your own children you're burying.

SF are good at spin same as every political party. It's the name of the game. But one thing they have called for is a Truth and Reconciliation Commission (call it a bluff if you like) which was met with deaf ears. It's something I would have loved to see and for the full truths to come out. I wouldn't have cared if the likes of McGuinness and Adams had spent the rest of their existence in a deep dungeon as long as they had plenty of company to rot with, from Unionist and Tory politicians and high ranking officials from the British security services.

And also very importantly the active role the Free State establishment took in covering the Dublin Monaghan bombings.

[Look-Up!]

Whether the SDLP could have achieved civil rights we'll never know. You cannot deny the reluctance of Unionists to come to the talking table, in fact the notion of it was always met with extreme violence- The bombing of Belfast and ousting of O'Neill, the killing of their own like George Forrest, reaction to Sunningdale and bombing of Dublin. Many nationalist communities in the north chose to stand up for themselves by picking up arms as their best option. It's easy to judge and condemn when it's not your own children you're burying.

SF are good at spin same as every political party. It's the name of the game. But one thing they have called for is a Truth and Reconciliation Commission (call it a bluff if you like) which was met with deaf ears. It's something I would have loved to see and for the full truths to come out. I wouldn't have cared if the likes of McGuinness and Adams had spent the rest of their existence in a deep dungeon as long as they had plenty of company to rot with, from Unionist and Tory politicians and high ranking officials from the British security services.

And also very importantly the active role the Free State establishment took in covering the Dublin Monaghan bombings.

Yes, if the full truths were known I would fully expect a few Irish politicians to be occupying the same dungeon. The treatment of the families of the victims of those bombings by our governments really is a huge shame on this country and one that no one wants to acknowledge.