Author Topic: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23  (Read 32903 times)

Hound

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1035 on: January 25, 2023, 12:45:18 PM »
I have no dog in this fight .
KCís super club image(financial strength, numbers strength and star player recruitment) has no relevance. 16 men on the field at a crucial vulnerable time for them , is a clear advantage penalised by rule.
I would ignore Mannion as 17th player , he was nowhere near the play or the line of vision to the goal.

In several years of involvement with the GAA I have never come across an issue with crucial play proceeding before sub went off . Sitting in hogan stand I commented that there seemed to be chaos around KC substitutions in injury time. KC conceded two second half goals ( from a 45, and last kick) into Hill 16 end last year in AI final. They nearly got caught in injury time in this yearís AI semi.
Subs at top level are usually pre-organised , Mullins number was up , on PA system, subs board and two big  screens . There is real possibility that he knew exactly what he was doing , by positioning himself on the goal line at a crucial period .
In short:
1. KC recent defensive history indicates a late goal was a real possibility
2. There is real possibility that Mullin staying on was not accidental
3. Rule was contravened (possibly deliberately) to the clear advantage of the winners at a crucial
Period of vulnerability for them
4. There is a clear evidence of this
5. Glen IMO have a duty to their players, management and members to do everything possible to win AI within the rules. This is not unsporting given the above
6. If KC are good enough theyíll win the replay 15 v 15

I think I remember Manion looking over as he didnít know he was being subbed. He then (I think) looked up at the big screen, he then knew and walked over towards the sideline.

Iíve no recollection of seeing 14 being told he had to go off or did the camera show him like they did with Mannion, I really think the chaos and confusion of those final moments contributed to a mistake, the conspiracy theories are ott.

The ref ultimately didnít wait till the subs fully left and played on, but heíd definitely been told of the subs, the club sec writes out the slip hands it to 4th official, heíll have said 2 subs coming on and next break of play, there is only one light up board for subs and injury time minutes left, punching in one sub and if the second one was done also then unfortunately thatís the refís fault not KCís
Exactly. It's completely disingenuous to suggest this was a deliberate ploy by Mullin or Crokes. It's crystal clear Mannion had no idea he was going off until Fox (the sub) ran up to him and pointed for him to get off. Mullin also was concentrating on defending the 45, not looking at the big screen or hiding (incidentally the big screen put Mullin's name up in the top left hand corner at the exact moment the 45 was been taken). Mullin just had the game of his life, and for eejits to be suggesting he's a cheat now is disgraceful.

He had no idea he was being taken off. The second sub didn't get to him in time. The ref still had his hand up when the 45 was taken. The only reason I can think of for the ref to have his hand up is to signal for the freetaker to wait. But the freetaker didn't wait and the ref let it play anyway.

There is an onus on a team to have no more than 15 on the pitch when play resumes. And if this was a pure Crokes error I could see a reason for a replay to be a valid punishment in the circumstances. But Crokes may have a valid argument that the ref did not give them enough time to conclude the substitution, so it's a refereeing error rather than a KC error. Ref errors happen throughout the game and should not be reason for the GAA to enforce a replay. However, there may be an alternative view that the sub should still have made the effort to get to Mullin and get him off even though the Glen man was running up to hit the 45.

seafoid

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1036 on: January 25, 2023, 01:12:40 PM »
I have no dog in this fight .
KCís super club image(financial strength, numbers strength and star player recruitment) has no relevance. 16 men on the field at a crucial vulnerable time for them , is a clear advantage penalised by rule.
I would ignore Mannion as 17th player , he was nowhere near the play or the line of vision to the goal.

In several years of involvement with the GAA I have never come across an issue with crucial play proceeding before sub went off . Sitting in hogan stand I commented that there seemed to be chaos around KC substitutions in injury time. KC conceded two second half goals ( from a 45, and last kick) into Hill 16 end last year in AI final. They nearly got caught in injury time in this yearís AI semi.
Subs at top level are usually pre-organised , Mullins number was up , on PA system, subs board and two big  screens . There is real possibility that he knew exactly what he was doing , by positioning himself on the goal line at a crucial period .
In short:
1. KC recent defensive history indicates a late goal was a real possibility
2. There is real possibility that Mullin staying on was not accidental
3. Rule was contravened (possibly deliberately) to the clear advantage of the winners at a crucial
Period of vulnerability for them
4. There is a clear evidence of this
5. Glen IMO have a duty to their players, management and members to do everything possible to win AI within the rules. This is not unsporting given the above
6. If KC are good enough theyíll win the replay 15 v 15

I think I remember Manion looking over as he didnít know he was being subbed. He then (I think) looked up at the big screen, he then knew and walked over towards the sideline.

Iíve no recollection of seeing 14 being told he had to go off or did the camera show him like they did with Mannion, I really think the chaos and confusion of those final moments contributed to a mistake, the conspiracy theories are ott.

The ref ultimately didnít wait till the subs fully left and played on, but heíd definitely been told of the subs, the club sec writes out the slip hands it to 4th official, heíll have said 2 subs coming on and next break of play, there is only one light up board for subs and injury time minutes left, punching in one sub and if the second one was done also then unfortunately thatís the refís fault not KCís
Exactly. It's completely disingenuous to suggest this was a deliberate ploy by Mullin or Crokes. It's crystal clear Mannion had no idea he was going off until Fox (the sub) ran up to him and pointed for him to get off. Mullin also was concentrating on defending the 45, not looking at the big screen or hiding (incidentally the big screen put Mullin's name up in the top left hand corner at the exact moment the 45 was been taken). Mullin just had the game of his life, and for eejits to be suggesting he's a cheat now is disgraceful.

He had no idea he was being taken off. The second sub didn't get to him in time. The ref still had his hand up when the 45 was taken. The only reason I can think of for the ref to have his hand up is to signal for the freetaker to wait. But the freetaker didn't wait and the ref let it play anyway.

There is an onus on a team to have no more than 15 on the pitch when play resumes. And if this was a pure Crokes error I could see a reason for a replay to be a valid punishment in the circumstances. But Crokes may have a valid argument that the ref did not give them enough time to conclude the substitution, so it's a refereeing error rather than a KC error. Ref errors happen throughout the game and should not be reason for the GAA to enforce a replay. However, there may be an alternative view that the sub should still have made the effort to get to Mullin and get him off even though the Glen man was running up to hit the 45.
If Mullin didn't go off the sub should have. 16 players is cheating.

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general_lee

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1037 on: January 25, 2023, 02:18:15 PM »
Itís pretty fundamental for a referee, once you know a sub(s) is being made you check to see who comes on and who goes off. This moment of colossal idiocy from the match officials has snowballed into the farcical situation we have now.

yellowcard

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1038 on: January 25, 2023, 02:24:02 PM »
I have no dog in this fight .
KCís super club image(financial strength, numbers strength and star player recruitment) has no relevance. 16 men on the field at a crucial vulnerable time for them , is a clear advantage penalised by rule.
I would ignore Mannion as 17th player , he was nowhere near the play or the line of vision to the goal.

In several years of involvement with the GAA I have never come across an issue with crucial play proceeding before sub went off . Sitting in hogan stand I commented that there seemed to be chaos around KC substitutions in injury time. KC conceded two second half goals ( from a 45, and last kick) into Hill 16 end last year in AI final. They nearly got caught in injury time in this yearís AI semi.
Subs at top level are usually pre-organised , Mullins number was up , on PA system, subs board and two big  screens . There is real possibility that he knew exactly what he was doing , by positioning himself on the goal line at a crucial period .
In short:
1. KC recent defensive history indicates a late goal was a real possibility
2. There is real possibility that Mullin staying on was not accidental
3. Rule was contravened (possibly deliberately) to the clear advantage of the winners at a crucial
Period of vulnerability for them
4. There is a clear evidence of this
5. Glen IMO have a duty to their players, management and members to do everything possible to win AI within the rules. This is not unsporting given the above
6. If KC are good enough theyíll win the replay 15 v 15

I think I remember Manion looking over as he didnít know he was being subbed. He then (I think) looked up at the big screen, he then knew and walked over towards the sideline.

Iíve no recollection of seeing 14 being told he had to go off or did the camera show him like they did with Mannion, I really think the chaos and confusion of those final moments contributed to a mistake, the conspiracy theories are ott.

The ref ultimately didnít wait till the subs fully left and played on, but heíd definitely been told of the subs, the club sec writes out the slip hands it to 4th official, heíll have said 2 subs coming on and next break of play, there is only one light up board for subs and injury time minutes left, punching in one sub and if the second one was done also then unfortunately thatís the refís fault not KCís
Exactly. It's completely disingenuous to suggest this was a deliberate ploy by Mullin or Crokes. It's crystal clear Mannion had no idea he was going off until Fox (the sub) ran up to him and pointed for him to get off. Mullin also was concentrating on defending the 45, not looking at the big screen or hiding (incidentally the big screen put Mullin's name up in the top left hand corner at the exact moment the 45 was been taken). Mullin just had the game of his life, and for eejits to be suggesting he's a cheat now is disgraceful.

He had no idea he was being taken off. The second sub didn't get to him in time. The ref still had his hand up when the 45 was taken. The only reason I can think of for the ref to have his hand up is to signal for the freetaker to wait. But the freetaker didn't wait and the ref let it play anyway.

There is an onus on a team to have no more than 15 on the pitch when play resumes. And if this was a pure Crokes error I could see a reason for a replay to be a valid punishment in the circumstances. But Crokes may have a valid argument that the ref did not give them enough time to conclude the substitution, so it's a refereeing error rather than a KC error. Ref errors happen throughout the game and should not be reason for the GAA to enforce a replay. However, there may be an alternative view that the sub should still have made the effort to get to Mullin and get him off even though the Glen man was running up to hit the 45.
If Mullin didn't go off the sub should have. 16 players is cheating.

Personally I don't believe it was cheating as some are suggesting. But for those 6 seconds they did have an unfair advantage even if it was unintentional. It was an officials error to allow the 45m kick be taken (or not retaken), anything else is just trying to apportion blame because of prejudices. 

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1039 on: January 25, 2023, 02:33:50 PM »
Yes it's very unfortunate what happened for all concerned. A lot of conjecture and ifs and buts and blame pointing at both clubs.

But what is clear is the 45 should have been retaken and Glenn are completely within their rights to object. I'd even say they have a duty of care to do so.

What happens next is with the GAA (or maybe some under the table negotiations).

Milltown Row2

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1040 on: January 25, 2023, 03:09:24 PM »
Itís pretty fundamental for a referee, once you know a sub(s) is being made you check to see who comes on and who goes off. This moment of colossal idiocy from the match officials has snowballed into the farcical situation we have now.

So you've never been at a game or played in a game where you heard the sideline "hey Ref they have 16 players on?!" ?
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1041 on: January 25, 2023, 03:20:53 PM »
Itís pretty fundamental for a referee, once you know a sub(s) is being made you check to see who comes on and who goes off. This moment of colossal idiocy from the match officials has snowballed into the farcical situation we have now.

So you've never been at a game or played in a game where you heard the sideline "hey Ref they have 16 players on?!" ?
I think the problem is, if you take what people say happened as fact, after the 45 was taken he was alerted to the extra player on field. He ordered him off and subsequently blew up the game. That validated the period of play 16 players were on the field and puts KC on the hook and gives Glenn an avenue for appeal.

Had he ordered the 45 retaken, the period of play with 16 players on the field would have been invalidated and we wouldn't be here now. Whatever outcome happened afterwards would have been accepted by all i.e 2 point win for KC, 1 point win for KC, 1 point win for Glenn

seafoid

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1042 on: January 25, 2023, 05:59:24 PM »
I have no dog in this fight .
KCís super club image(financial strength, numbers strength and star player recruitment) has no relevance. 16 men on the field at a crucial vulnerable time for them , is a clear advantage penalised by rule.
I would ignore Mannion as 17th player , he was nowhere near the play or the line of vision to the goal.

In several years of involvement with the GAA I have never come across an issue with crucial play proceeding before sub went off . Sitting in hogan stand I commented that there seemed to be chaos around KC substitutions in injury time. KC conceded two second half goals ( from a 45, and last kick) into Hill 16 end last year in AI final. They nearly got caught in injury time in this yearís AI semi.
Subs at top level are usually pre-organised , Mullins number was up , on PA system, subs board and two big  screens . There is real possibility that he knew exactly what he was doing , by positioning himself on the goal line at a crucial period .
In short:
1. KC recent defensive history indicates a late goal was a real possibility
2. There is real possibility that Mullin staying on was not accidental
3. Rule was contravened (possibly deliberately) to the clear advantage of the winners at a crucial
Period of vulnerability for them
4. There is a clear evidence of this
5. Glen IMO have a duty to their players, management and members to do everything possible to win AI within the rules. This is not unsporting given the above
6. If KC are good enough theyíll win the replay 15 v 15
Great post
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Wildweasel74

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1043 on: January 25, 2023, 08:00:19 PM »
If I remember right, No. 14 proceeded to go up the field as the  ball was due to be kicked out, was it the ref informed him he was to go off?

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1044 on: January 25, 2023, 08:17:36 PM »
If I remember right, No. 14 proceeded to go up the field as the  ball was due to be kicked out, was it the ref informed him he was to go off?
Ref was definitely trying to get him off but he was in no hurry. Goalie too in no hurry with kick out. Think it took about 45 seconds for the kick out to happen between the no.1 and 14 messing. Looked like the ref just wanted it all to end as quick as possible. The actual Glenn play for the 45 took all of 5 or 6 seconds, and considering there was nearly a minute of play left when the 45 was awarded, leaving the 16 player issue aside, KC definitely exploited a weak referee on using the time clock to their advantage.

 

Milltown Row2

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1045 on: January 25, 2023, 08:23:28 PM »
If I remember right, No. 14 proceeded to go up the field as the  ball was due to be kicked out, was it the ref informed him he was to go off?
Ref was definitely trying to get him off but he was in no hurry. Goalie too in no hurry with kick out. Think it took about 45 seconds for the kick out to happen between the no.1 and 14 messing. Looked like the ref just wanted it all to end as quick as possible. The actual Glenn play for the 45 took all of 5 or 6 seconds, and considering there was nearly a minute of play left when the 45 was awarded, leaving the 16 player issue aside, KC definitely exploited a weak referee on using the time clock to their advantage.

If you are a player on the winning side youíll wind down the clock, 3 minutes injury given and the ref did allow more time on top of that, you canít add time for slow kick outs, subs and injuries yes.

I was lambasted for adding 6 minutes in extra time for lads pissing about and winding down the clock, in a county final. Seems I was correct by the posts on here ;D
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

seafoid

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1046 on: January 25, 2023, 08:23:59 PM »
If I remember right, No. 14 proceeded to go up the field as the  ball was due to be kicked out, was it the ref informed him he was to go off?
The own goal line isn't the usual hunting ground of full forwards
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Look-Up!

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1047 on: January 25, 2023, 08:37:02 PM »
If I remember right, No. 14 proceeded to go up the field as the  ball was due to be kicked out, was it the ref informed him he was to go off?
Ref was definitely trying to get him off but he was in no hurry. Goalie too in no hurry with kick out. Think it took about 45 seconds for the kick out to happen between the no.1 and 14 messing. Looked like the ref just wanted it all to end as quick as possible. The actual Glenn play for the 45 took all of 5 or 6 seconds, and considering there was nearly a minute of play left when the 45 was awarded, leaving the 16 player issue aside, KC definitely exploited a weak referee on using the time clock to their advantage.

If you are a player on the winning side youíll wind down the clock, 3 minutes injury given and the ref did allow more time on top of that, you canít add time for slow kick outs, subs and injuries yes.

I was lambasted for adding 6 minutes in extra time for lads pissing about and winding down the clock, in a county final. Seems I was correct by the posts on here ;D
At least 3 minutes injury time to the discretion of referee. Just watched end back on TG4 player. About a minute left when 45 happened. Took 70 seconds to finally take it. Ball in play for 5 seconds. Took about 45 seconds for the ball to be kicked out. 20 seconds of that was trying to get the illegal player to go off. Ref then immediately blew time.

Under normal circumstances I can't imagine much of a problem with letting the kick out develop for half a minute or so. But that's besides the point. It "all happened so quickly" argument doesn't really add up in defence of referee or KC.

seafoid

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1048 on: January 25, 2023, 08:44:53 PM »
If I remember right, No. 14 proceeded to go up the field as the  ball was due to be kicked out, was it the ref informed him he was to go off?
Ref was definitely trying to get him off but he was in no hurry. Goalie too in no hurry with kick out. Think it took about 45 seconds for the kick out to happen between the no.1 and 14 messing. Looked like the ref just wanted it all to end as quick as possible. The actual Glenn play for the 45 took all of 5 or 6 seconds, and considering there was nearly a minute of play left when the 45 was awarded, leaving the 16 player issue aside, KC definitely exploited a weak referee on using the time clock to their advantage.

If you are a player on the winning side youíll wind down the clock, 3 minutes injury given and the ref did allow more time on top of that, you canít add time for slow kick outs, subs and injuries yes.

I was lambasted for adding 6 minutes in extra time for lads pissing about and winding down the clock, in a county final. Seems I was correct by the posts on here ;D
At least 3 minutes injury time to the discretion of referee. Just watched end back on TG4 player. About a minute left when 45 happened. Took 70 seconds to finally take it. Ball in play for 5 seconds. Took about 45 seconds for the ball to be kicked out. 20 seconds of that was trying to get the illegal player to go off. Ref then immediately blew time.

Under normal circumstances I can't imagine much of a problem with letting the kick out develop for half a minute or so. But that's besides the point. It "all happened so quickly" argument doesn't really add up in defence of referee or KC.
The core of the KC defence seems to be quite ropey ie ref's fault, everything happened so fast, chaos.
Everything could have been found out on Sunday evening. Surely all Ireland finals deserve the best compliance.
The GAA have to improve in this area. The current set up is arseways.  I bet  the FAI could do better
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pbat

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Re: All Ireland club football championships 2022/23
« Reply #1049 on: January 26, 2023, 09:30:28 PM »
Scotstown pulling a Kilmacud, Big money signing