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A step too far Leo!
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/taoiseach-defends-ric-commemoration-as-corks-lord-mayor-latest-to-boycott-event-38837971.html

What next?  Commemorating Kevin Barry and the hangman in the one ceremony >:(

RIC were mostly Irish who were on the losing side in a revolutionary war. After the war they were ostracised. Later the pieds noirs in Algeria played the same role.
History is messy .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pied-Noir

Those who moved to France, suffered ostracism from the Left for their perceived exploitation of native Muslims and some blamed them for the war, thus the political turmoil surrounding the collapse of the French Fourth Republic.[3] I

I see the shinners are pressing hard with rebranding this RIC commemoration as a "Black and Tans" commemoration. I have to hand it to them, they're masters of the art of distortion and whipping up rage.

It's not right or appropriate that an Independent Irish State should officially commemorate an organisation that fought to prevent the establishment of an Independent Irish State.
By all means list those killed in any historical record as facts are facts but this thing is wrong.
Yanks don't remember the redcoats who were killed in their War of Independence.
Will we next have a Statue of fkn Cromwell in Drogheda?

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 06, 2020, 07:25:07 PM
I see the shinners are pressing hard with rebranding this RIC commemoration as a "Black and Tans" commemoration. I have to hand it to them, they're masters of the art of distortion and whipping up rage.

6.3 Auxiliary division and 'Black and Tans'
From 1920 to 1922, Royal Irish Constabulary 'Temporary Constables' made up largely of ex-soldiers and commonly called the 'Black and Tans', were employed to suppress revolution in Ireland, alongside an Auxiliary Division (ADRIC) of  former military officers. These former officers, like the Black and Tans, were mostly First World War veterans, including those who had served in the Royal Flying Corps.

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-irish-constabulary/ (https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-irish-constabulary/)

If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.

Quote from: Rossfan on January 06, 2020, 07:59:30 PM
It's not right or appropriate that an Independent Irish State should officially commemorate an organisation that fought to prevent the establishment of an Independent Irish State.
By all means list those killed in any historical record as facts are facts but this thing is wrong.
Yanks don't remember the redcoats who were killed in their War of Independence.
Will we next have a Statue of fkn Cromwell in Drogheda?

There are people in the states who still fly the confederate flag and defend confederate monuments. Self-loathing is not an exclusively Irish thing.

Quote from: weareros on January 06, 2020, 09:00:32 PM
If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.

Similar thoughts had crossed my mind, a lot of ROI citizens would undoubtedly find a 'New (united) Ireland' a strange place. There are lots of types of Irishmen.

Quote from: bennydorano on January 06, 2020, 09:26:50 PM

Quote from: weareros on January 06, 2020, 09:00:32 PM
If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.

Similar thoughts had crossed my mind, a lot of ROI citizens would undoubtedly find a 'New (united) Ireland' a strange place. There are lots of types of Irishmen.

In a new Ireland, there would probably need to be a place to honour the UDR too.

I would have no trouble with Orange Order parades in a new Ireland.

My mum is not very complimentary about the Tans!

A united Germany should commerate the Stasi.

Where has the push for this commemoration come from? Is there a veteran society or something like that or is it just a brain fart from FG trying to be mature about history?

The same lads will be falling over themselves at Easter to commemorate the very lads the RIC were trying to stop.

Quote from: andoireabu on January 06, 2020, 10:03:34 PM
Where has the push for this commemoration come from? Is there a veteran society or something like that or is it just a brain fart from FG trying to be mature about history?

The same lads will be falling over themselves at Easter to commemorate the very lads the RIC were trying to stop.

Sounds like it's retired gardai who began it and has been going on for awhile without official state involvement:
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/state-still-cannot-bring-itself-to-honour-the-memory-of-ric-men-1.3642435

I see the Dublin Corpo voted tonight to ignore the thing.

The backlash has started but really what did Fine Gael expect? Leaving aside the Brexit process apart (and that was for purely selfish economic reasons) they have always been the party who gave off a feeling of subservience to British rule. Charlie Flanagan being the prime exponent of it but only one of several within that party.

Some serious poor revisionist Historians on here. RIC was a 70% -80% catholic force who served in an Ireland which was at a time when the majority of the population was at the very least subservient to the Crown. You are talking about a force which was very representative of the Irish population of the time and was made up of men from poor backgrounds who seen a way out of poverty which at the time was not seen through a prisim of partition. FFSake the RIC where disbanded in 1922. Not to be confused by the Orange Force of the RUC. What chance of convincing 800 000 protestant that their culture and history would be respected in a United Ireland if catholic Ireland does not have the sense to respect there own...RIC were not the Black and Tans who where Auxiliaries recruited from main English/Scottish poverty stricken and trench effected veterans of the WW I butchers feud.

Quote from: yellowcard on January 06, 2020, 10:41:32 PM
The backlash has started but really what did Fine Gael expect? Leaving aside the Brexit process apart (and that was for purely selfish economic reasons) they have always been the party who gave off a feeling of subservience to British rule. Charlie Flanagan being the prime exponent of it but only one of several within that party.

Flanagan is a balaclava wearing volunteer when compared to John Bruton and his antics when Charles Windsor came over here in, what, 1995 or so.

Did FG stop for a moment and think that if the RIC had been successful in 1919-21 there wouldn't have been an Irish Free State or subsequent Independent Irish State?
Leo would be First Minister of a Region of the "UK" and we'd now be leaving the EU.
PS Bruton was a disgrace in 1995

Quote from: Rossfan on January 06, 2020, 10:50:26 PM
Did FG stop for a moment and think that if the RIC had been successful in 1919-21 there wouldn't have been an Irish Free State or subsequent Independent Irish State?
Leo would be First Minister of a Region of the "UK" and we'd now be leaving the EU.
PS Bruton was a disgrace in 1995

Pure dung.  RIC was supplemented by the Black and Tans because the British Government could not rely on a the RIC to carry out their will in Ireland.The reason for this is that they were representative of the Irish population of the time that voted 70% for the newly formed Sinn Fein of 1918. Don't confuse 2020 for 100 years ago.

A major own goal by leo the clown. Who wanted this, where was the demand for this, why not commemorate 100s of other way more worthy people out there. Just incredible stupidity by FG. The RIC were part of an occupying force which oppressed the irish people and I dont care what religion they were. They enforced eviction of our poorest, they supported and worked with Tans and auxilleraries. They tortured and maimed. f**k their commeration in this ridiculous attempt at revisionism.

Quote from: weareros on January 06, 2020, 09:00:32 PM
If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.

They are already honoured. There are statues and monuments to the RUC and UDR. There are British military memorials everywhere. Belfast city hall is like a British army museum. Various Councils see fit piss away hundreds of thousands of pounds on military circle jerks and trips to Flanders. What makes anyone think that in a united ireland this would change?

Quote from: Itchy on January 06, 2020, 11:41:36 PM
A major own goal by leo the clown. Who wanted this, where was the demand for this, why not commemorate 100s of other way more worthy people out there. Just incredible stupidity by FG. The RIC were part of an occupying force which oppressed the irish people and I dont care what religion they were. They enforced eviction of our poorest, they supported and worked with Tans and auxilleraries. They tortured and maimed. f**k their commeration in this ridiculous attempt at revisionism.

Nonsense The Civic Guard was formed in 1923 which was the fore runner of The Garda Siochana where formed from the Republican Irish Police and the RIC. of which the majority where former members of the RIC. So the police force of the newly formed state was actually predominantly former members of the RIC. The RIC of 1900 - 1922 was a representative force made up of Royalists Landed gentry Farming class farm labourers city slum dwellers protestant catholic Republican and unionist. IE reflective of Irish society of 1900 - 1923. Revisionist of 2020 have no right to impose 2020 hindsight or propaganda on the motivation of men from 100 years ago without truly reflecting the political or society norms of the time. Any other approach is blind sided nonsense which is fairly blinkered in its views.

Quote from: general_lee on January 06, 2020, 11:58:07 PM

Quote from: weareros on January 06, 2020, 09:00:32 PM
If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.

They are already honoured. There are statues and monuments to the RUC and UDR. There are British military memorials everywhere. Belfast city hall is like a British army museum. Various Councils see fit piss away hundreds of thousands of pounds on military circle jerks and trips to Flanders. What makes anyone think that in a united ireland this would change?

RUC and UDR have no connection to RIC the are separated by up on 60 years . Incidentally a very significant number of UDR men where actually Irish Catholics when they where first formed in the 1970s. There are one or two republican families about with a dirty little secret in the family history as the initial months of the formation of the UDR many Republicans joined up in a bid to preventing it becoming another B Specials outfit.

Eh the RIC were immediate predecessors of the RUC, maybe worth researching their behaviour in Belfast in the 1920s just before they became the RUC

Quote from: general_lee on January 07, 2020, 12:25:24 AM
Eh the RIC were immediate predecessors of the RUC, maybe worth researching their behaviour in Belfast in the 1920s just before they became the RUC

At least we are getting some where as I have said the RIC was reflective of Irish Society of it's time and in the 6 counties the RIC force was a predominantly sectarian Orange force  particularly in Belfast and was an immediate for runner to the RUC. But again the six counties of the time represented 30%of Irish society of the time and the majority of the RIC represented Irish society of 1918. Which had by this time become republican between 1916 - 18. Do not forget the volunteers of 1916 where spat at by the population of Dublin after they left the GPO. This was because many of the poor of Dublin had sons fighting in France.Maybe you need to read Donal McAnallens book on the Forgotten History of the GAA.

the RIC were regarded as British Quislings.

the members of the RIC can be viewed through rose tinted lenses as mere civic police, the truth is from the mid 19th century to 1922, the Irishmen who joined the force, were deemed as traitors to the local community because they choose to better themselves by taking the coin from an occupying force rather than resisting like most of the natives. They were then on the wrong side of history when independence was achieved(with no help from them) and when the RIC was disbanded, for years after former RIC men were detested and for their families there was an element of shame attached to the RIC assocaiation.

now we have the west brit leaning element within FG trying to erase that "family shame" with this lamentable commemoration lark. another nail in the coffin of the outgoing fg administration, certain to rise the blood of even mild nationalists come election time, but par for the course now, as fgare   globo/multiculturalist cheerleaders, and the "forgive all" fits with that narrative.

With a future vote on the six counties re-uniting likely to happen inside 10/20 years, a key subset of voters in that referendum would be the comfortable castle catholics in the north.  In their hearts they want a united Ireland, but I wonder if just like the RIC, will they choose to vote with their pockets especially if they are earning their corn working for the British government in some capacity or other.

In essence, within war zones, as in the fight for Irish independence, they will be casualties and nasty conflict as part of the territory. One of the rawest aspects of war  is when some of what are regarded as "your own"  fight against you for the other side. The RIC, well the catholic members of it, were Irish natives happy to take the side of the Brits against the locals. Anyone sympathising with the RIC should be ashamed to call themselves Irish.

There is a widespread view that Trump has lost the plot re Iran.
I think Varadkar has lost  the plot, he is standing in a press conference with Simon Harris, not talking about the record waiting lists in A&E but about this event, which is being boycotted by Dublin and Cork councils.

Total Irish killed in War of Independence - 550
Total children dumped in mass grave in Tuam - 800
Total other mass graves -?
Total Irish women incarcerated in Magdalene Launderies - 300,000
Total Irish children born out of wedlock sold by nuns 60,000
Total politicians from Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and City Councils that have publicly boycotted the church - ?

It seems peculiarly timed, with rising talk of a United Ireland then this to scare soft Unionism and provide ammunition for shithead loyalism?

At the same time, why is it always considered by some in Ireland that in the pursuit of political maturity that we are expected to move closer and closer to the Brits weren't that bad, sure they got even got our own people to subjugate us?

Of course let the past be the past but don't drag it up and insult our forebearers for wanting and fighting for our freedom. The south must be the only country in the world that feels it has to apologise for its own existence.

The RDS gets off lightly.

Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 07, 2020, 01:10:07 AM
the RIC were regarded as British Quislings.

the members of the RIC can be viewed through rose tinted lenses as mere civic police, the truth is from the mid 19th century to 1922, the Irishmen who joined the force, were deemed as traitors to the local community because they choose to better themselves by taking the coin from an occupying force rather than resisting like most of the natives. They were then on the wrong side of history when independence was achieved(with no help from them) and when the RIC was disbanded, for years after former RIC men were detested and for their families there was an element of shame attached to the RIC assocaiation.

now we have the west brit leaning element within FG trying to erase that "family shame" with this lamentable commemoration lark. another nail in the coffin of the outgoing fg administration, certain to rise the blood of even mild nationalists come election time, but par for the course now, as fgare   globo/multiculturalist cheerleaders, and the "forgive all" fits with that narrative.

With a future vote on the six counties re-uniting likely to happen inside 10/20 years, a key subset of voters in that referendum would be the comfortable castle catholics in the north.  In their hearts they want a united Ireland, but I wonder if just like the RIC, will they choose to vote with their pockets especially if they are earning their corn working for the British government in some capacity or other.

In essence, within war zones, as in the fight for Irish independence, they will be casualties and nasty conflict as part of the territory. One of the rawest aspects of war  is when some of what are regarded as "your own"  fight against you for the other side. The RIC, well the catholic members of it, were Irish natives happy to take the side of the Brits against the locals. Anyone sympathising with the RIC should be ashamed to call themselves Irish.

With attitudes towards history such as this you may kiss bye bye to any prospects of United Irelsnd for the next 100 years. The Castke Catholics represent a sizable vote in the North and an even greater vote in the South. If you try to understand history the the prisim of the past you will never build a future  The invention of mass republicanism prevailing pre 1916 does not stand up to any historical inspection. These views on RIC membership was not representative of the time and is invented History.

Skillfullbill - you can talk all the revisionist shite you like on here. The facts are the RIC were the strong arm of british rule in Ireland. The assisted evictions of our poorest during famine times, they assisted the British government in identifying and setting up IRA volunteers for assisination. They tortured Irish citizens. I have no issue with families remembering individuals who served in that force but to honour them as a whole is crazy, even for the blueshirts, a spectacular own goal, and I would say a slipping of the mask. Watch how they try to back peddle out of this over the coming week. I will be watching which of my local politicians attend and I have already written to each of them to ask if they support it, I will vote accordingly in the General Election.

What you say about a united Ireland is more crap. Since when did any unionist in the 6 counties request this memorial. By putting it out there FG has created a problem that never existed that the DUP will now jump all over. Complete stupidity by Leo and Flanagan, pair of half wits.

I wonder when Michael Martin will finish checking what way the wind is blowing before he grows a pair and tells us what he thinks?

Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2020, 08:34:18 AM
Skillfullbill - you can talk all the revisionist shite you like on here. The facts are the RIC were the strong arm of british rule in Ireland. The assisted evictions of our poorest during famine times, they assisted the British government in identifying and setting up IRA volunteers for assisination. They tortured Irish citizens. I have no issue with families remembering individuals who served in that force but to honour them as a whole is crazy, even for the blueshirts, a spectacular own goal, and I would say a slipping of the mask. Watch how they try to back peddle out of this over the coming week. I will be watching which of my local politicians attend and I have already written to each of them to ask if they support it, I will vote accordingly in the General Election.

What you say about a united Ireland is more crap. Since when did any unionist in the 6 counties request this memorial. By putting it out there FG has created a problem that never existed that the DUP will now jump all over. Complete stupidity by Leo and Flanagan, pair of half wits.

I wonder when Michael Martin will finish checking what way the wind is blowing before he grows a pair and tells us what he thinks?

Who is the Revisionist ?

1916 proclamation signatures out of 7 men

One was an ex member of the British Army
One was the son of a Britsh Army Soldier
One was a son of an RIC officer.

You are entitled to hold the view that these men where traitors to Ireland when viewed through Post 1916 republicanism what your not entitled to do is make up Histort to suit your narrative.

Irish History did not start in Easter 1916.

Prior to that was Redmonds Home Rule movement which represented the vast majority of Irish thinking pre 1916 and before that was Parnells Home rule movement.

Itchy stop making it up.

Quote from: SkillfulBill on January 07, 2020, 09:25:20 AM

Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2020, 08:34:18 AM
Skillfullbill - you can talk all the revisionist shite you like on here. The facts are the RIC were the strong arm of british rule in Ireland. The assisted evictions of our poorest during famine times, they assisted the British government in identifying and setting up IRA volunteers for assisination. They tortured Irish citizens. I have no issue with families remembering individuals who served in that force but to honour them as a whole is crazy, even for the blueshirts, a spectacular own goal, and I would say a slipping of the mask. Watch how they try to back peddle out of this over the coming week. I will be watching which of my local politicians attend and I have already written to each of them to ask if they support it, I will vote accordingly in the General Election.

What you say about a united Ireland is more crap. Since when did any unionist in the 6 counties request this memorial. By putting it out there FG has created a problem that never existed that the DUP will now jump all over. Complete stupidity by Leo and Flanagan, pair of half wits.

I wonder when Michael Martin will finish checking what way the wind is blowing before he grows a pair and tells us what he thinks?

Who is the Revisionist ?

1916 proclamation signatures out of 7 men

One was an ex member of the British Army
One was the son of a Britsh Army Soldier
One was a son of an RIC officer.

You are entitled to hold the view that these men where traitors to Ireland when viewed through Post 1916 republicanism what your not entitled to do is make up Histort to suit your narrative.

Irish History did not start in Easter 1916.

Prior to that was Redmonds Home Rule movement which represented the vast majority of Irish thinking pre 1916 and before that was Parnells Home rule movement.

Itchy stop making it up.

Still doesn't explain why you want to commemorate men who fought alongside British Arms, terrorising Ireland and Irish people for decades

Quote from: SkillfulBill on January 07, 2020, 09:25:20 AM

Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2020, 08:34:18 AM
Skillfullbill - you can talk all the revisionist shite you like on here. The facts are the RIC were the strong arm of british rule in Ireland. The assisted evictions of our poorest during famine times, they assisted the British government in identifying and setting up IRA volunteers for assisination. They tortured Irish citizens. I have no issue with families remembering individuals who served in that force but to honour them as a whole is crazy, even for the blueshirts, a spectacular own goal, and I would say a slipping of the mask. Watch how they try to back peddle out of this over the coming week. I will be watching which of my local politicians attend and I have already written to each of them to ask if they support it, I will vote accordingly in the General Election.

What you say about a united Ireland is more crap. Since when did any unionist in the 6 counties request this memorial. By putting it out there FG has created a problem that never existed that the DUP will now jump all over. Complete stupidity by Leo and Flanagan, pair of half wits.

I wonder when Michael Martin will finish checking what way the wind is blowing before he grows a pair and tells us what he thinks?

Who is the Revisionist ?

1916 proclamation signatures out of 7 men

One was an ex member of the British Army
One was the son of a Britsh Army Soldier
One was a son of an RIC officer.

You are entitled to hold the view that these men where traitors to Ireland when viewed through Post 1916 republicanism what your not entitled to do is make up Histort to suit your narrative.

Irish History did not start in Easter 1916.

Prior to that was Redmonds Home Rule movement which represented the vast majority of Irish thinking pre 1916 and before that was Parnells Home rule movement.

Itchy stop making it up.

Individuals that saw the light and changed sides. There were plenty of them. Why are we commemorating the entire organisation. To celebrate the burning of cork is it. Cop on lad, you are not going to justify this horseshit.

The RIC actively and nastily fought against the establishment of an Independent Irish State as voted for in 1918.
It is simply wrong that the Independent Irish State should officially commemorate (I.e celebrate) such an organisation.
If the FG party want to....let them at it but leave the State out if it.

The 100th anniversary of the abolition of the RIC would be worth marking and a good reason for historians to compile a record of the organisation, warts and all.

Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2020, 10:02:12 AM
The RIC actively and nastily fought against the establishment of an Independent Irish State as voted for in 1918.
It is simply wrong that the Independent Irish State should officially commemorate (I.e celebrate) such an organisation.
If the FG party want to....let them at it but leave the State out if it.

The 100th anniversary of the abolition of the RIC would be worth marking and a good reason for historians to compile a record of the organisation, warts and all.

More Revisionist bullshit Cork was Burned by the Tans and the British Army not the RIC.. I have no issue with you holding your views on these men but stop inventing Historical facts to justify your views.

Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2020, 10:02:12 AM
The RIC actively and nastily fought against the establishment of an Independent Irish State as voted for in 1918.

If this true, why were they inducted in large numbers into the Garda Siochana upon its formation and as such enjoyed almost universal public support thenceforth?

How's the cricket going? lol

Quote from: SkillfulBill on January 07, 2020, 10:27:07 AM

Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2020, 10:02:12 AM
The RIC actively and nastily fought against the establishment of an Independent Irish State as voted for in 1918.
It is simply wrong that the Independent Irish State should officially commemorate (I.e celebrate) such an organisation.
If the FG party want to....let them at it but leave the State out if it.

The 100th anniversary of the abolition of the RIC would be worth marking and a good reason for historians to compile a record of the organisation, warts and all.

More Revisionist bullshit Cork was Burned by the Tans and the British Army not the RIC.. I have no issue with you holding your views on these men but stop inventing Historical facts to justify your views.

The Black and Tans were RIC special constables, were they not?

Quote from: five points on January 07, 2020, 10:33:20 AM
If this true, why were they inducted in large numbers into the Garda Siochana upon its formation and as such enjoyed almost universal public support thenceforth?

The organisation was an evil one, which is not to say that all or its members were.

There's no justification for this. Even if we go with the narrative that the Tans and Auxies were not "in" the RIC you cannot avoid the fact that the RIC supported them and provided information about people/places etc that were targeted by the Tans/Auxies for their brutal crimes. They were the eyes and ears of the British military establishment. And that's before you talk about evictions etc at the behest of British landowners. Absolute madness and I'd say there are a lot of FG people who are privately fuming over this.

I'm all for reconciliation and taking steps to make the transition to a United Ireland when it comes more smooth but this is just nonsense.

Quote from: armaghniac on January 07, 2020, 11:14:31 AM

The Black and Tans were RIC special constables, were they not?

In name only

Quote from: armaghniac on January 07, 2020, 11:14:31 AM

Quote from: five points on January 07, 2020, 10:33:20 AM
If this true, why were they inducted in large numbers into the Garda Siochana upon its formation and as such enjoyed almost universal public support thenceforth?

The organisation was an evil one, which is not to say that all or its members were.

You didn't answer my question. If the RIC organisation was so evil, how come such large numbers of them ended up in the Gardai, with public support?

What are the "large numbers"?
Wasn't there a mutiny by the "civic guards" against some ex RICs being appointed?
Anyway I doubt if any of the active anti Independence RICs were let in.
And by the way the Tans and Auxiliaries were part of the RIC.

Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2020, 11:35:57 AM
What are the "large numbers"?
Wasn't there a mutiny by the "civic guards" against some ex RICs being appointed?

The entire DMP along with a small number of RIC.

QuoteAnd by the way the Tans and Auxiliaries were part of the RIC.

In name only.

Quote from: SkillfulBill on January 07, 2020, 10:27:07 AM

Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2020, 10:02:12 AM
The RIC actively and nastily fought against the establishment of an Independent Irish State as voted for in 1918.
It is simply wrong that the Independent Irish State should officially commemorate (I.e celebrate) such an organisation.
If the FG party want to....let them at it but leave the State out if it.

The 100th anniversary of the abolition of the RIC would be worth marking and a good reason for historians to compile a record of the organisation, warts and all.

More Revisionist bullshit Cork was Burned by the Tans and the British Army not the RIC.. I have no issue with you holding your views on these men but stop inventing Historical facts to justify your views.

The Black and Tans were indoctrinated into the RIC, in fact they were specifically not allowed to be identified as army. So yes the black and tans were part of the RIC effectively. How many of your ancestors were thrown out of their houses by the RIC supporting landlord evictons? I notice you have moved away from your nonsense on a united ireland being some how effected by the awful southerners not commemorating this shower.

Quote from: Rossfan on January 06, 2020, 10:50:26 PM
Did FG stop for a moment and think that if the RIC had been successful in 1919-21 there wouldn't have been an Irish Free State or subsequent Independent Irish State?
Leo would be First Minister of a Region of the "UK" and we'd now be leaving the EU.
PS Bruton was a disgrace in 1995

The 1918 election was a game changer. Dubs booed the rebels in 1916 but 2 years later the Irish Nationalist party collapsed. There was no going back except in the 6 counties where Unionists had a majority.

Quote from: five points on January 07, 2020, 11:24:34 AM

Quote from: armaghniac on January 07, 2020, 11:14:31 AM

The Black and Tans were RIC special constables, were they not?

In name only

Quote from: armaghniac on January 07, 2020, 11:14:31 AM

Quote from: five points on January 07, 2020, 10:33:20 AM
If this true, why were they inducted in large numbers into the Garda Siochana upon its formation and as such enjoyed almost universal public support thenceforth?

The organisation was an evil one, which is not to say that all or its members were.

You didn't answer my question. If the RIC organisation was so evil, how come such large numbers of them ended up in the Gardai, with public support?

What is that supposed to mean?

Just 13 men transferred to the Garda Síochána. These included men who had earlier assisted IRA operations in various ways. Some retired, and the Irish Free State paid their pensions as provided for in the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty agreement. Others, still faced with threats of violent reprisals,[28] emigrated with their families to Great Britain or other parts of the Empire, most often to police forces in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Southern Rhodesia. A number of these men joined the Palestine Gendarmerie, which was recruiting in the UK at this time.

Quote from: tyronefan on January 07, 2020, 12:25:45 PM
Just 13 men transferred to the Garda Síochána. These included men who had earlier assisted IRA operations in various ways. Some retired, and the Irish Free State paid their pensions as provided for in the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty agreement. Others, still faced with threats of violent reprisals,[28] emigrated with their families to Great Britain or other parts of the Empire, most often to police forces in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Southern Rhodesia. A number of these men joined the Palestine Gendarmerie, which was recruiting in the UK at this time.

We should have a commemoration for those 13 men.

Quote from: tyronefan on January 07, 2020, 12:25:45 PM
Just 13 men transferred to the Garda Síochána. These included men who had earlier assisted IRA operations in various ways. Some retired, and the Irish Free State paid their pensions as provided for in the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty agreement. Others, still faced with threats of violent reprisals,[28] emigrated with their families to Great Britain or other parts of the Empire, most often to police forces in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Southern Rhodesia. A number of these men joined the Palestine Gendarmerie, which was recruiting in the UK at this time.

This ignores the DMP which continued in existence until 1925 when it merged with the Garda.

Anyway, when is the blueshirt nazi commemoration taking place. We must honour those proud men too.

This discussion reminds me of all the debates about the supposed difference between the original IRA and subsequent iterations in the North. Southern groupthink is very fragile.

`A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right.`- Tom Paine, 1737-1809.

Quote from: Shamrock Shore on January 06, 2020, 10:48:45 PM

Quote from: yellowcard on January 06, 2020, 10:41:32 PM
The backlash has started but really what did Fine Gael expect? Leaving aside the Brexit process apart (and that was for purely selfish economic reasons) they have always been the party who gave off a feeling of subservience to British rule. Charlie Flanagan being the prime exponent of it but only one of several within that party.

Flanagan is a balaclava wearing volunteer when compared to John Bruton and his antics when Charles Windsor came over here in, what, 1995 or so.

I wouldn't argue with that, Bruton despite having retired years ago I see has since come out in the media to tansplain and justify the decision. Meanwhile Micheal Martin appears to have no opinion on it which in itself tells you something about his leadership which has been all about clinging to the coat tails of FG.

Quote from: yellowcard on January 07, 2020, 01:20:31 PM

Quote from: Shamrock Shore on January 06, 2020, 10:48:45 PM

Quote from: yellowcard on January 06, 2020, 10:41:32 PM
The backlash has started but really what did Fine Gael expect? Leaving aside the Brexit process apart (and that was for purely selfish economic reasons) they have always been the party who gave off a feeling of subservience to British rule. Charlie Flanagan being the prime exponent of it but only one of several within that party.

Flanagan is a balaclava wearing volunteer when compared to John Bruton and his antics when Charles Windsor came over here in, what, 1995 or so.

I wouldn't argue with that, Bruton despite having retired years ago I see has since come out in the media to tansplain and justify the decision. Meanwhile Micheal Martin appears to have no opinion on it which in itself tells you something about his leadership which has been all about clinging to the coat tails of FG.

If it becomes a vote getter he will move to the side of his Clare Mayor. But with Opinion Pieces like this in De Examiner, he will probably sit on the fence. https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/ourview/a-new-reality-faces-the-north--southern-hypocrisy-exposed-973925.html

Michael Martin the Irish version of Jeremy Corbyn?

Quote from: yellowcard on January 07, 2020, 01:20:31 PM

Quote from: Shamrock Shore on January 06, 2020, 10:48:45 PM

Quote from: yellowcard on January 06, 2020, 10:41:32 PM
The backlash has started but really what did Fine Gael expect? Leaving aside the Brexit process apart (and that was for purely selfish economic reasons) they have always been the party who gave off a feeling of subservience to British rule. Charlie Flanagan being the prime exponent of it but only one of several within that party.

Flanagan is a balaclava wearing volunteer when compared to John Bruton and his antics when Charles Windsor came over here in, what, 1995 or so.

I wouldn't argue with that, Bruton despite having retired years ago I see has since come out in the media to tansplain and justify the decision. Meanwhile Micheal Martin appears to have no opinion on it which in itself tells you something about his leadership which has been all about clinging to the coat tails of FG.

"Tansplain"   Brilliant. There is definitely a bit of Tansplaining going on in this thread.

In all honesty the whole thing is a shambles. What is the benefit of doing it?
     I could understand if it was a remembrance of all those who died as a result of conflict fair enough, but to specifically commemorate the RIC and by association the tans/aux is daft.
     Perhaps there is some sort of commemoration for the loyalists who fought for England in the American war of independence? 

Quote from: bennydorano on January 06, 2020, 09:26:50 PM

Quote from: weareros on January 06, 2020, 09:00:32 PM
If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.

Similar thoughts had crossed my mind, a lot of ROI citizens would undoubtedly find a 'New (united) Ireland' a strange place. There are lots of types of Irishmen.

There are indeed many types of "Irishman" and "Irishwoman".

We've long had exiled Irish (disapora) eg "Irish Americans". Now we've got "Irish Europeans" from membership of the EU. We've got eg Polish or Nigerian Irish following immigration. There are plenty of proud Gay Irish folk or Muslim Irish, hell there are even Irish Atheists. Irish Protestants have also found a place.

While formerly "excluded" groups like the Anglo-Irish (Wilde, Swift, Shaw, Beckett etc) have been reclaimed as "Irish" - at least if there's a festival, a grant or some other kudos to be derived.

Following as it does from massive social, cultural, economic and political changes, Leo Varadkar embodies this new situation, all of which is wholly to be welcomed (imo). Indeed I wish that people in NI could catch up, at least the more backward elements.

But there is one glaring exclusion to all this, even after a century of self-determination, and that is those people who like me, are/choose to be "British Irish". People in Ireland may choose dual or even multiple identities, but my one is "beyond the Pale" (sorry, weak joke).

Of course, in purely political terms, Britishness (Unionism) must be inimical in any independent Irish Republic, but my point is that "Irishness" is, or should be, about far more than some prescribed political affiliation. Yet the moment that someone likes me looks to assert my own Irishness, it is immediately discounted on account of my personal politics. (It is richly ironic that as the descendant of Scots people from many centuries back, I should now have an Irish version of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy applied to me lol).

Of course, people will say that this is my choice to exclude myself from the welcome that would await me in any all-Irish Republic etc. But this totally ignores a crucial aspect of the debate, namely that when Irish Unity's most vocal and active advocates urge, campaign and even try to bomb the "Brits" out of Ireland (I'm looking at you, Martina Anderson), they actually mean Brits like me* and my family, from a whole community who have been "British" and "Irish" for centuries.

And those same people wonder why we're not very enthusiastic about a United Ireland...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899)


* - The grandson of an RIC man from Leitrim, btw, whom some of his fellow Irish people (neighbours?) tried to murder one night

Quote from: Evil Genius on January 07, 2020, 04:22:43 PM

Quote from: bennydorano on January 06, 2020, 09:26:50 PM

Quote from: weareros on January 06, 2020, 09:00:32 PM
If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.

Similar thoughts had crossed my mind, a lot of ROI citizens would undoubtedly find a 'New (united) Ireland' a strange place. There are lots of types of Irishmen.

There are indeed many types of "Irishman" and "Irishwoman".

We've long had exiled Irish (disapora) eg "Irish Americans". Now we've got "Irish Europeans" from membership of the EU. We've got eg Polish or Nigerian Irish following immigration. There are plenty of proud Gay Irish folk or Muslim Irish, hell there are even Irish Atheists. Irish Protestants have also found a place.

While formerly "excluded" groups like the Anglo-Irish (Wilde, Swift, Shaw, Beckett etc) have been reclaimed as "Irish" - at least if there's a festival, a grant or some other kudos to be derived.

Following as it does from massive social, cultural, economic and political changes, Leo Varadkar embodies this new situation, all of which is wholly to be welcomed (imo). Indeed I wish that people in NI could catch up, at least the more backward elements.

But there is one glaring exclusion to all this, even after a century of self-determination, and that is those people who like me, are/choose to be "British Irish". People in Ireland may choose dual or even multiple identities, but my one is "beyond the Pale" (sorry, weak joke).

Of course, in purely political terms, Britishness (Unionism) must be inimical in any independent Irish Republic, but my point is that "Irishness" is, or should be, about far more than some prescribed political affiliation. Yet the moment that someone likes me looks to assert my own Irishness, it is immediately discounted on account of my personal politics. (It is richly ironic that as the descendant of Scots people from many centuries back, I should now have an Irish version of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy applied to me lol).

Of course, people will say that this is my choice to exclude myself from the welcome that would await me in any all-Irish Republic etc. But this totally ignores a crucial aspect of the debate, namely that when Irish Unity's most vocal and active advocates urge, campaign and even try to bomb the "Brits" out of Ireland (I'm looking at you, Martina Anderson), they actually mean Brits like me* and my family, from a whole community who have been "British" and "Irish" for centuries.

And those same people wonder why we're not very enthusiastic about a United Ireland...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899)


* - The grandson of an RIC man from Leitrim, btw, whom some of his fellow Irish people (neighbours?) tried to murder one night

If a new Ireland wants to be seen as a welcoming place for unionists, we must commemorate those who actively opposed the formation of the state, through murder, torture and tyranny?

If that is the case and we are to be consistent in our approach,  in order for the north to be an inclusive place for nationalists, we should have a 'state' commemoration for members of the IRA?

Quote from: Evil Genius on January 07, 2020, 04:22:43 PM

Quote from: bennydorano on January 06, 2020, 09:26:50 PM

Quote from: weareros on January 06, 2020, 09:00:32 PM
If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.

Similar thoughts had crossed my mind, a lot of ROI citizens would undoubtedly find a 'New (united) Ireland' a strange place. There are lots of types of Irishmen.

There are indeed many types of "Irishman" and "Irishwoman".

We've long had exiled Irish (disapora) eg "Irish Americans". Now we've got "Irish Europeans" from membership of the EU. We've got eg Polish or Nigerian Irish following immigration. There are plenty of proud Gay Irish folk or Muslim Irish, hell there are even Irish Atheists. Irish Protestants have also found a place.

While formerly "excluded" groups like the Anglo-Irish (Wilde, Swift, Shaw, Beckett etc) have been reclaimed as "Irish" - at least if there's a festival, a grant or some other kudos to be derived.

Following as it does from massive social, cultural, economic and political changes, Leo Varadkar embodies this new situation, all of which is wholly to be welcomed (imo). Indeed I wish that people in NI could catch up, at least the more backward elements.

But there is one glaring exclusion to all this, even after a century of self-determination, and that is those people who like me, are/choose to be "British Irish". People in Ireland may choose dual or even multiple identities, but my one is "beyond the Pale" (sorry, weak joke).

Of course, in purely political terms, Britishness (Unionism) must be inimical in any independent Irish Republic, but my point is that "Irishness" is, or should be, about far more than some prescribed political affiliation. Yet the moment that someone likes me looks to assert my own Irishness, it is immediately discounted on account of my personal politics. (It is richly ironic that as the descendant of Scots people from many centuries back, I should now have an Irish version of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy applied to me lol).

Of course, people will say that this is my choice to exclude myself from the welcome that would await me in any all-Irish Republic etc. But this totally ignores a crucial aspect of the debate, namely that when Irish Unity's most vocal and active advocates urge, campaign and even try to bomb the "Brits" out of Ireland (I'm looking at you, Martina Anderson), they actually mean Brits like me* and my family, from a whole community who have been "British" and "Irish" for centuries.

And those same people wonder why we're not very enthusiastic about a United Ireland...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899)


* - The grandson of an RIC man from Leitrim, btw, whom some of his fellow Irish people (neighbours?) tried to murder one night

Here we go. Now thanks to Leo's idiocy we will have unionists saying that this is now an important issue. The same as when Wee Willie the clown want to march is sectarian "Love ulster" (well 2/3rd of Ulster) gang down O Connell street. Ah would you look at that, them intolerent southerners wont allow peaceful little Willie and his band down the street, what would they do to us in a united Ireland.


For the record I would change the flag and then anthem in a new republic but a state commemoration for a disgraced murdering police force is not up for debate in my opinion.

Michael Martin almost gets off the fence

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/micheal-martin-says-ric-event-an-error-of-judgement-by-government-38840738.html

As good as any example of the contradictions of the Irish relationship with its past. Tom Crean, today remembered as an Irish hero with even beers named after him, his pub a tourist attraction in Kerry, his brother shot dead for being an RIC man  https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/diarmaid-ferriter-the-snow-makes-me-think-of-tom-crean-s-brother-cornelius-1.3413028%3fmode=amp

BTW, very good post Evil Genius.

Quote from: weareros on January 07, 2020, 05:00:23 PM
As good as any example of the contradictions of the Irish relationship with its past. Tom Crean, today remembered as an Irish hero with even beers named after him, his pub a tourist attraction in Kerry, his brother shot dead for being an RIC man  https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/diarmaid-ferriter-the-snow-makes-me-think-of-tom-crean-s-brother-cornelius-1.3413028%3fmode=amp

BTW, very good post Evil Genius.

Tom Crean and his brother were two different people.

As someone said above a remembrance ceremony in 2023 for all who died in conflict 1913 to 1923 would be acceptable to most.
But singling that organisation out for a special  commemoration by the State whose existence they violently opposed is not appropriate.
What next.? Commemorate the hangmen who executed Kevin Barru, Paddy Moran etc.

Quote from: Franko on January 07, 2020, 04:45:39 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on January 07, 2020, 04:22:43 PM

Quote from: bennydorano on January 06, 2020, 09:26:50 PM

Quote from: weareros on January 06, 2020, 09:00:32 PM
If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.

Similar thoughts had crossed my mind, a lot of ROI citizens would undoubtedly find a 'New (united) Ireland' a strange place. There are lots of types of Irishmen.

There are indeed many types of "Irishman" and "Irishwoman".

We've long had exiled Irish (disapora) eg "Irish Americans". Now we've got "Irish Europeans" from membership of the EU. We've got eg Polish or Nigerian Irish following immigration. There are plenty of proud Gay Irish folk or Muslim Irish, hell there are even Irish Atheists. Irish Protestants have also found a place.

While formerly "excluded" groups like the Anglo-Irish (Wilde, Swift, Shaw, Beckett etc) have been reclaimed as "Irish" - at least if there's a festival, a grant or some other kudos to be derived.

Following as it does from massive social, cultural, economic and political changes, Leo Varadkar embodies this new situation, all of which is wholly to be welcomed (imo). Indeed I wish that people in NI could catch up, at least the more backward elements.

But there is one glaring exclusion to all this, even after a century of self-determination, and that is those people who like me, are/choose to be "British Irish". People in Ireland may choose dual or even multiple identities, but my one is "beyond the Pale" (sorry, weak joke).

Of course, in purely political terms, Britishness (Unionism) must be inimical in any independent Irish Republic, but my point is that "Irishness" is, or should be, about far more than some prescribed political affiliation. Yet the moment that someone likes me looks to assert my own Irishness, it is immediately discounted on account of my personal politics. (It is richly ironic that as the descendant of Scots people from many centuries back, I should now have an Irish version of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy applied to me lol).

Of course, people will say that this is my choice to exclude myself from the welcome that would await me in any all-Irish Republic etc. But this totally ignores a crucial aspect of the debate, namely that when Irish Unity's most vocal and active advocates urge, campaign and even try to bomb the "Brits" out of Ireland (I'm looking at you, Martina Anderson), they actually mean Brits like me* and my family, from a whole community who have been "British" and "Irish" for centuries.

And those same people wonder why we're not very enthusiastic about a United Ireland...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899)


* - The grandson of an RIC man from Leitrim, btw, whom some of his fellow Irish people (neighbours?) tried to murder one night

If a new Ireland wants to be seen as a welcoming place for unionists, we must commemorate those who actively opposed the formation of the state, through murder, torture and tyranny?

No, that is not the consequence of what I posted. For not every RIC man, never mind Unionist, supported or engaged in, "murder, torture and tyranny".

Quote from: Franko on January 07, 2020, 04:45:39 PM
If that is the case and we are to be consistent in our approach,  in order for the north to be an inclusive place for nationalists, we should have a 'state' commemoration for members of the IRA?

We're talking about the Irish Republic here, which as well as holding this commemoration for the RIC, also holds annual commemorations of eg the Easter Rising.

Whilst simultaneously proscribing the IRA as an illegal organisation.

The real point being that these things are not "black and white", never mind "black and tan". But with the objectivity and detachment that a century brings, reasonable people may come to a more all-round view of events and people.

So who knows, come the centenary of the GFA in 2098, maybe Northern Ireland will find itself holding some sort of commemoration for the brave volunteers (or at least those who sold out at the time  ;))?

Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2020, 04:56:05 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on January 07, 2020, 04:22:43 PM

Quote from: bennydorano on January 06, 2020, 09:26:50 PM

Quote from: weareros on January 06, 2020, 09:00:32 PM
If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.

Similar thoughts had crossed my mind, a lot of ROI citizens would undoubtedly find a 'New (united) Ireland' a strange place. There are lots of types of Irishmen.

There are indeed many types of "Irishman" and "Irishwoman".

We've long had exiled Irish (disapora) eg "Irish Americans". Now we've got "Irish Europeans" from membership of the EU. We've got eg Polish or Nigerian Irish following immigration. There are plenty of proud Gay Irish folk or Muslim Irish, hell there are even Irish Atheists. Irish Protestants have also found a place.

While formerly "excluded" groups like the Anglo-Irish (Wilde, Swift, Shaw, Beckett etc) have been reclaimed as "Irish" - at least if there's a festival, a grant or some other kudos to be derived.

Following as it does from massive social, cultural, economic and political changes, Leo Varadkar embodies this new situation, all of which is wholly to be welcomed (imo). Indeed I wish that people in NI could catch up, at least the more backward elements.

But there is one glaring exclusion to all this, even after a century of self-determination, and that is those people who like me, are/choose to be "British Irish". People in Ireland may choose dual or even multiple identities, but my one is "beyond the Pale" (sorry, weak joke).

Of course, in purely political terms, Britishness (Unionism) must be inimical in any independent Irish Republic, but my point is that "Irishness" is, or should be, about far more than some prescribed political affiliation. Yet the moment that someone likes me looks to assert my own Irishness, it is immediately discounted on account of my personal politics. (It is richly ironic that as the descendant of Scots people from many centuries back, I should now have an Irish version of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy applied to me lol).

Of course, people will say that this is my choice to exclude myself from the welcome that would await me in any all-Irish Republic etc. But this totally ignores a crucial aspect of the debate, namely that when Irish Unity's most vocal and active advocates urge, campaign and even try to bomb the "Brits" out of Ireland (I'm looking at you, Martina Anderson), they actually mean Brits like me* and my family, from a whole community who have been "British" and "Irish" for centuries.

And those same people wonder why we're not very enthusiastic about a United Ireland...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899)


* - The grandson of an RIC man from Leitrim, btw, whom some of his fellow Irish people (neighbours?) tried to murder one night

Here we go. Now thanks to Leo's idiocy we will have unionists saying that this is now an important issue.

I am not saying it is "an important issue" - it is entirely for the people and government of the Republic to determine these things for themselves. Nor does this poster speak on behalf of "Unionists" or "Unionism".

Rather, as a neighbouring Irishman and the grandson of an RIC man, I have both an interest in, and a connection to, the matter under discussion.

Or am I not to be allowed an opinion, merely because it differs from yours?

Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2020, 04:56:05 PM
The same as when Wee Willie the clown want to march is sectarian "Love ulster" (well 2/3rd of Ulster) gang down O Connell street. Ah would you look at that, them intolerent southerners wont allow peaceful little Willie and his band down the street, what would they do to us in a united Ireland.

"Here we go" indeed!

When you hear the term "Prod/Brit/Unionist/Loyalist/Orange etc", do you automatically think of the like of Willie Frazer, as though we are all sort of amorphous group, incapable of thinking for ourselves individually?

For the record, when Frazer stood for election, he invariably received minimal support (eg 656 votes in Newry and Mourne in 2010, as against former IRA member Conor Murphy's 18,657).

So if we Unionists don't take our cue from idiots like Willie Frazer (or Jamie Bryson), why on earth do Republicans get so wound up by them?

Try to see the bigger picture - and not just from your own corner.

the only people who want to establish the "it was all not black and white" are the likes of yourself, a self confessed west brit. there are few british/irish left in the south and if you are so attached to your british heritage why don't your sling your hook and move back to the mainland?. the people of german heritage who found themselves in a newly designed Poland post WW2 soon accepted the reality and today few of german descent would describe themselves as German/Polish, they are now happy Poles and proud of it.

this whole episode is fantastic as it revives Irish history and makes it a hot topic, and unknowingly FG with this own goal, have further lit a fire for a real nationalist(irish blood) party of right wing leaning to emerge sooner rather than later, as is happening throughout the rest of Europe.

this reason why this event has been scheduled is because FG has most support from legacy RIC/ Brit leaning families and being in power, this was a means of doffing the cap to these families. by trying to normalise and celebrate RIC membership, and therefore removing the shame, FG may suit a tiny segment of the community, whilst raising the ire of the majority.....letting sleeping dogs lie, comes to mind.

I called correctly the result of the British General Election(sorry Seafoid!,), with this debacle, you can be 100% certain FF will win most seats in the 2020 Ge, and FG now sitting on 48/49, will fall below 40....take this prediction and earn from it.

Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 07, 2020, 05:44:37 PM
the only people who want to establish the "it was all not black and white" are the likes of yourself, a self confessed west brit. there are few british/irish left in the south and if you are so attached to your british heritage why don't your sling your hook and move back to the mainland?. the people of german heritage who found themselves in a newly designed Poland post WW2 soon accepted the reality and today few of german descent would describe themselves as German/Polish, they are now happy Poles and proud of it.

this whole episode is fantastic as it revives Irish history and makes it a hot topic, and unknowingly FG with this own goal, have further lit a fire for a real nationalist(irish blood) party of right wing leaning to emerge sooner rather than later, as is happening throughout the rest of Europe.

"The Irish Willie Frazer speaks..."

If I took that sort of garbage seriously, or thought that other posters on here did, I might be tempted to get angry.

But intead I just laugh, shake my head and decide it's time for me to make myself a cup of tea. (A British drink  ;))

The Government has deferred an event that planned to commemorate the place of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police in Irish history.

They've "postponed" the event, and rightly so.
Perhaps they'll talk to the citizens they purport to represent.

Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2020, 05:17:24 PM
What next.? Commemorate the hangmen who executed Kevin Barru, Paddy Moran etc.

Wow! Has someone suggested that?

They'll have a hard job selling tickets for that one!

I hope you don't disappear again EG.

If  EG is  back on the forum regularly then the Varadkar/Flanagan own goal will have achieved something positive  ;D
As for Cuckoo and his "Irish blood Nationalist right wing" party ...we already have 3 or 4 sets of those eejits who got 1.8% of the vote in recent elections.

Quote from: Harold Disgracey on January 07, 2020, 05:58:22 PM
The Government has deferred an event that planned to commemorate the place of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police in Irish history.

Cancelled more like. Nice to see people power working for a change. Now go sort out health and homeless you useless FG tossers

Good job Itchy the GAA has no association with the RIC....wait 7 founding members in Thurles and one of them a serving member of you know who....another name to be airbrushed out of our History Thomas McCarthy.

Quote from: SkillfulBill on January 07, 2020, 06:46:15 PM
Good job Itchy the GAA has no association with the RIC....wait 7 founding members in Thurles and one of them a serving member of you know who....another name to be airbrushed out of our History Thomas McCarthy.

Reminds me that my Granda was (I think) the RIC Handball Champion.

Foreign games, eh?  ;)

Quote from: SkillfulBill on January 07, 2020, 06:46:15 PM
Good job Itchy the GAA has no association with the RIC....wait 7 founding members in Thurles and one of them a serving member of you know who....another name to be airbrushed out of our History Thomas McCarthy.

I presume you know the names of the other 5 beside Cusack?
'

Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2020, 07:14:21 PM

Quote from: SkillfulBill on January 07, 2020, 06:46:15 PM
Good job Itchy the GAA has no association with the RIC....wait 7 founding members in Thurles and one of them a serving member of you know who....another name to be airbrushed out of our History Thomas McCarthy.

I presume you know the names of the other 5 beside Cusack?
'

Davin (stand)
Braken
power
Ryan an McKay

Mc Carthy storey always stood out for me as his place in GAA history has only in recent times been acknowledged he was in a paupers unmarked grave until the GAA put the history straight a few years back.

'Irish Blood Nationalist Right wing'. Sweet Jesus do us all a favour.

I'm glad that common sense has prevailed, FG had realised that they had misread the public mood badly and had no option but to cancel. It was a very poor judgement call to begin with. FG are badly out of touch with ordinary people most of them live in a Dublin middle class bubble and the same Dublin media largely facilitate and help set their news agenda for them. It's all about self preservation, politics based on perceived populism rather than conviction politics based on principles.

Has Micheal Martin considered it safe to offer an opinion yet?

Quote from: SkillfulBill on January 07, 2020, 06:46:15 PM
Good job Itchy the GAA has no association with the RIC....wait 7 founding members in Thurles and one of them a serving member of you know who....another name to be airbrushed out of our History Thomas McCarthy.

Dry your eyes lad.

Quote from: yellowcard on January 07, 2020, 07:54:09 PM
'Irish Blood Nationalist Right wing'. Sweet Jesus do us all a favour.

I'm glad that common sense has prevailed, FG had realised that they had misread the public mood badly and had no option but to cancel. It was a very poor judgement call to begin with. FG are badly out of touch with ordinary people most of them live in a Dublin middle class bubble and the same Dublin media largely facilitate and help set their news agenda for them. It's all about self preservation, politics based on perceived populism rather than conviction politics based on principles.

Has Micheal Martin considered it safe to offer an opinion yet?

Leo was being advised by a bunch of D4 eejits and probably skillfulbill. Made a balls of it. I posted a link to Martin's "opinion" which was basically I'm going to sit in this fence in case i fall. He's worse than Leo as he has  no back bone at all

To add to that, look at what the think tank on commemorations had to say on this which shows that this was a FG plan and came from no where else....

   

A State commemoration of the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) and the Dublin Metropolitan Police (DMP) has been postponed following public and political backlash.

The event, which was to be held in Dublin Castle on Friday week, has been postponed by the Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan after a number of politicians said they would boycott the event. Independent Alliance ministers John Halligan and Kevin Boxer Moran also said they would not attend.

Mr Flanagan said that "given the disappointing response of some to the planned event on 17th January, I do not believe that the event, as planned, can now take place in an atmosphere that meets the goals and guiding principles of the overall commemorative programme. Therefore, I am announcing its deferral."

He said will consult further with the expert advisory group on centenary commemoration and with the all-party consultative group on commemoration "with a view to organising an event that is inclusive and fully respectful of all the traditions and memories on this island."

He added that there were "those in the RIC who committed atrocities."

"The horrific record of the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries is well known. But there were thousands of other officers who behaved with dignity and honour in serving their communities. And we should not seek to airbrush these people from our history."

Speaking later on RTÉ, Mr Flanagan said he is "determined that this event will take place" in the future.

However on Tuesday evening Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald called on the Government to scrap the plans entirely . "For any Irish government for advocate commemorating these organisations is shameful and it has rightly drawn much criticism," she said.

"Deferral of this planned commemoration is a step in the right direction, but it's not enough. This event needs to be cancelled."

Earlier Historian Professor Diarmaid Ferriter said the expert advisory group on commemorations never suggested there should be a State event for the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police.

He took issue with a statement by Mr Flanagan who said on Monday that the proposed State commemoration was made "under the guidance of the expert advisory group on centenary commemorations".

Mr Flanagan had responded to the mounting furore over the commemoration event on January 17th in Dublin Castle by stressing that it was never intended to honour the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries too.

He added: "This event is one of a large number of events taking place during this decade to acknowledge and commemorate significant events or developments in the history of our island one hundred years ago.

"It is not a celebration. It is an acknowledgement the historical importance of both the DMP and the RIC, and is in no sense a commemoration of the Black and Tans or the Auxiliaries."

Professor Ferriter said the advisory group, which comprises of himself and other professional historians under the chairmanship of Dr Maurice Manning, did not recommend that a service for the RIC and the DMP be included in the list of State commemorations.

Major OG by the Shirts.
This could be the straw that breaks the back of this Government.
A bit ironic considering the Housing and Health shambles.

Thats Leo finished isnt it???

Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2020, 09:17:25 PM
Major OG by the Shirts.
This could be the straw that breaks the back of this Government.
A bit ironic considering the Housing and Health shambles.

It would  be a bit shameful if people were willing to put up with 120000 people on trolleys each year and needed this to ge rid of Harris, Varadkar et al.

Quote from: Evil Genius on January 07, 2020, 05:21:33 PM

Quote from: Franko on January 07, 2020, 04:45:39 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on January 07, 2020, 04:22:43 PM

Quote from: bennydorano on January 06, 2020, 09:26:50 PM

Quote from: weareros on January 06, 2020, 09:00:32 PM
If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.

Similar thoughts had crossed my mind, a lot of ROI citizens would undoubtedly find a 'New (united) Ireland' a strange place. There are lots of types of Irishmen.

There are indeed many types of "Irishman" and "Irishwoman".

We've long had exiled Irish (disapora) eg "Irish Americans". Now we've got "Irish Europeans" from membership of the EU. We've got eg Polish or Nigerian Irish following immigration. There are plenty of proud Gay Irish folk or Muslim Irish, hell there are even Irish Atheists. Irish Protestants have also found a place.

While formerly "excluded" groups like the Anglo-Irish (Wilde, Swift, Shaw, Beckett etc) have been reclaimed as "Irish" - at least if there's a festival, a grant or some other kudos to be derived.

Following as it does from massive social, cultural, economic and political changes, Leo Varadkar embodies this new situation, all of which is wholly to be welcomed (imo). Indeed I wish that people in NI could catch up, at least the more backward elements.

But there is one glaring exclusion to all this, even after a century of self-determination, and that is those people who like me, are/choose to be "British Irish". People in Ireland may choose dual or even multiple identities, but my one is "beyond the Pale" (sorry, weak joke).

Of course, in purely political terms, Britishness (Unionism) must be inimical in any independent Irish Republic, but my point is that "Irishness" is, or should be, about far more than some prescribed political affiliation. Yet the moment that someone likes me looks to assert my own Irishness, it is immediately discounted on account of my personal politics. (It is richly ironic that as the descendant of Scots people from many centuries back, I should now have an Irish version of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy applied to me lol).

Of course, people will say that this is my choice to exclude myself from the welcome that would await me in any all-Irish Republic etc. But this totally ignores a crucial aspect of the debate, namely that when Irish Unity's most vocal and active advocates urge, campaign and even try to bomb the "Brits" out of Ireland (I'm looking at you, Martina Anderson), they actually mean Brits like me* and my family, from a whole community who have been "British" and "Irish" for centuries.

And those same people wonder why we're not very enthusiastic about a United Ireland...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899)


* - The grandson of an RIC man from Leitrim, btw, whom some of his fellow Irish people (neighbours?) tried to murder one night

If a new Ireland wants to be seen as a welcoming place for unionists, we must commemorate those who actively opposed the formation of the state, through murder, torture and tyranny?

No, that is not the consequence of what I posted. For not every RIC man, never mind Unionist, supported or engaged in, "murder, torture and tyranny".

Quote from: Franko on January 07, 2020, 04:45:39 PM
If that is the case and we are to be consistent in our approach,  in order for the north to be an inclusive place for nationalists, we should have a 'state' commemoration for members of the IRA?

We're talking about the Irish Republic here, which as well as holding this commemoration for the RIC, also holds annual commemorations of eg the Easter Rising.

Whilst simultaneously proscribing the IRA as an illegal organisation.

The real point being that these things are not "black and white", never mind "black and tan". But with the objectivity and detachment that a century brings, reasonable people may come to a more all-round view of events and people.

So who knows, come the centenary of the GFA in 2098, maybe Northern Ireland will find itself holding some sort of commemoration for the brave volunteers (or at least those who sold out at the time  ;))?

Why bring it up here then?  What's the relevance of what you have posted within the context of this discussion?

The level of detachment that a century might bring here might be determined by circumstances.  The grandson of a serving RIC officer might have a different outlook on this in comparison to, say, someone who's grandfather had their house burned to the ground by members of the RIC.  Or maybe someone who's grandfather had a hand grenade detonated whilst being forced to hold it in their mouth by members of the RIC.

For them, I'd imagine it's pretty black and white.

Quote from: armaghniac on January 07, 2020, 10:46:01 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2020, 09:17:25 PM
Major OG by the Shirts.
This could be the straw that breaks the back of this Government.
A bit ironic considering the Housing and Health shambles.

It would  be a bit shameful if people were willing to put up with 120000 people on trolleys each year and needed this to ge rid of Harris, Varadkar et al.

Civil war politics still alive and well in the 26.
And we laugh at Orangemen holding onto 1690. Only another 230 years to go.

Quote from: armaghniac on January 07, 2020, 10:46:01 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2020, 09:17:25 PM
Major OG by the Shirts.
This could be the straw that breaks the back of this Government.
A bit ironic considering the Housing and Health shambles.

It would  be a bit shameful if people were willing to put up with 120000 people on trolleys each year and needed this to ge rid of Harris, Varadkar et al.

Yes and no. Trollies has been years happening and people, rightfully or not, have moved on from blaming the minister.

What happened here was a bad idea spun offensively. Flanagan insulted the entire electorate using a patronising tone and now looks even gobshitier by backing out. None of us plebs understood it.

People don't like being insulted

Quote from: Evil Genius on January 07, 2020, 05:21:33 PM
The real point being that these things are not "black and white", never mind "black and tan". But with the objectivity and detachment that a century brings, reasonable people may come to a more all-round view of events and people.

Of course this is the nub of the matter. . Most who study irish and family history find this all-round view.  I have a grand-uncle who was in the DMP, two grandfathers who were in IRA, one of whom joined the Civic Guards directly in 1921.  I appreciate the nuances of this. 

There are some sensitivities  that Flanagan et al have blundered into:

1) The RIC as a "civic" police force.   It's a subject of debate if they were or not.  Going right back to the famine times there was the issue of their relationship with the ordinary folk.  They were always armed.  In my own county (Clare) pension records show that over 50% were "British" rather than "Irish".   They certainly never seem to have the "man on the beat" acceptance that much of the DMP had.  (outside of the G-Division).

2) The role the RIC found themselves in from 1918 - 1921 certainly could be seen as opposing the foundation of the very state that would now officially commemorate them. 

3) The fact that the "Black and Tans " were (deliberately) part of the RIC.  As a collective their actions were universally (even in contemporary British press and politics) regarded as criminal and unacceptable.

When Leo got into government I remember a controversy around his creation of heavily funded communications unit.  Still from a communications point of view they completely mishandled this commemoration and the issues above.   Other parties seem unaware or nonplussed about this but the Shinners went straight for number 3.  Flanagan made reference to online responses in his list of excuses.  However, there is a valid point that this went from an "RIC" commemoration to a "Black & Tan" commemoration on Twitter and it swept like wildfire. 

Also not inviting other party leaders but inviting council mayors?  Another own-goal.  Given that local republican representatives were most visible and targeted by Black and Tans?

Whoever is running that "comms unit" needs to take a long hard look.

/Jim.

Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on January 08, 2020, 10:36:34 AM
2) The role the RIC found themselves in from 1918 - 1921 certainly could be seen as opposing the foundation of the very state that would now officially commemorate them. 

3) The fact that the "Black and Tans " were (deliberately) part of the RIC.  As a collective their actions were universally (even in contemporary British press and politics) regarded as criminal and unacceptable.

Which is why having a centenary event in 2020 was total madness and you have to wonder at how out of touch these people are.

It's nonsense to be treating the RIC as one entity from foundation until 1921, or which IRA soldier/officer had an RIC daddy.
In April 1919 the RIC  was 'outlawed' by the parliament of legitimate provisional government and was replaced by the Irish Republican Police.

In my home town in Co Monaghan  10 RIC resigned their commission in the aftermath of the Dail declaration. The remaining loyal to the crown RICs were replenished with B&Ts and the Auxiliaries. By 1921 there were 4 sergeants and 20 constables, including 9 english born, all billeted together. They patrolled together, they acted like sadists together with impunity, they were scum of the earth.
In jan 1921 a patrol was ambushed in the town, 2 RIC/Tans were killed along with their feckless quisling civilian informer who went out to warn them, a few others were injured. The usual suspect republican soldiers were rounded up, tortured and eventually 10 IRA 'suspects' were sentenced to death in a show trial, reprieved at the 11th hour by the truce. The RIC / B&Ts were all an equal part of this sadistic regime.  This is just one small story in one small town.

This part of local history was well documented by a local historian and he posted up the details in an RIC research and history discussion board. It aroused great interest not least with the grandson of one killed in the ambush, eventually leading to that grandson and many other english and irish descendants of the war time barrack's personnel visiting the town in 2013. By all accounts they received a warm rousing welcome from the locals and had a great time.

This is a far cry from the state commemorating the very same RIC in a state function with all the state paraphernalia.

Your last 2 lines sums it up precisely Main St.

As Pat Vaughan of Castlerea put it
"I had my house burned,one brother killed and another beaten so badly that he suffered all through his life.
But it was worth it.....we put our flag a flying"

Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2020, 01:12:26 PM
Your last 2 lines sums it up precisely Main St.

As Pat Vaughan of Castlerea put it
"I had my house burned,one brother killed and another beaten so badly that he suffered all through his life.
But it was worth it.....we put our flag a flying"

And yet we have to move on from the two Gardai murdered from Castlerea in 1980 by a republican group (saor Eire) raising for the cause? While it took longer, the killers were still released under GFA.

Were those pair not released as the Courts decided they were due remission on their 40 year sentences?

Quote from: weareros on January 08, 2020, 02:22:19 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2020, 01:12:26 PM
Your last 2 lines sums it up precisely Main St.

As Pat Vaughan of Castlerea put it
"I had my house burned,one brother killed and another beaten so badly that he suffered all through his life.
But it was worth it.....we put our flag a flying"

And yet we have to move on from the two Gardai murdered from Castlerea in 1980 by a republican group (saor Eire) raising for the cause? While it took longer, the killers were still released under GFA.

Did anyone ask the state to hold a commemoration for Saor Eire? No. So where is the comparison. We do have to move on from the past but we do not have to pretend the past was something it wasnt.

Quote from: weareros on January 08, 2020, 02:22:19 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2020, 01:12:26 PM
Your last 2 lines sums it up precisely Main St.

As Pat Vaughan of Castlerea put it
"I had my house burned,one brother killed and another beaten so badly that he suffered all through his life.
But it was worth it.....we put our flag a flying"

And yet we have to move on from the two Gardai murdered from Castlerea in 1980 by a republican group (saor Eire) raising for the cause? While it took longer, the killers were still released under GFA.

I don't mean to be rude but i'm not understanding your point here, specifically how it relates to the proposed STATE commemoration of the RIC.
              I can understand  how it must be unbelievably hurtful for family members to have seen/known that those who murdered their loved ones walk under the GFA. Saying that , the GFA was agreed by the 2 governments, all the main political parties (bar DUP) and gained a majority vote in both NI and the Rep.
            For me, there was no need to commemorate the RIC specifically. They are holding a commemoration for all those who died in the war of independence and that is the best vehicle to remember all the participants of the conflict.
         Anyway i suppose the entire shambles, will give the government a heads up on sensitives that are still present particularly when addressing the civil war in any future commemorations.

Quote from: weareros on January 08, 2020, 02:22:19 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2020, 01:12:26 PM
Your last 2 lines sums it up precisely Main St.

As Pat Vaughan of Castlerea put it
"I had my house burned,one brother killed and another beaten so badly that he suffered all through his life.
But it was worth it.....we put our flag a flying"

And yet we have to move on from the two Gardai murdered from Castlerea in 1980 by a republican group (saor Eire) raising for the cause? While it took longer, the killers were still released under GFA.

When and where is the state commemoration of Saor Eire?

Is weareros saying the 2 Gardai are comparable to the RIC or that Pat Vaughan and comrades are comparable to the 2 yokes who murdered Gardai Byrne and Morley?
Reading papers today it seems Flanagan was the "brain" behind singling out the RIC/Tans/Auxies for a special commemoration.

Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2020, 04:37:15 PM
Is weareros saying the 2 Gardai are comparable to the RIC or that Pat Vaughan and comrades are comparable to the 2 yokes who murdered Gardai Byrne and Morley?
Reading papers today it seems Flanagan was the "brain" behind singling out the RIC/Tans/Auxies for a special commemoration.

Rossfan, I am not saying that. I am saying families, North and South, have been asked to move to reconciliation from more recent pain with the signing of GFA, which I agree with. But we seem to have more difficulty with events around War of Independence. Only reason I cited example.

That said, at the monument unveiled to those two murdered Gardai, Republicans were noticeable by their absence. Enough said. God rest those men.

Fair enough buck.
I dont think we have difficulties as such with War of Independence events
It's the State singling out for commemorating an organisation who fought against the establishment of an Irish state that got up people's noses.

Unsurprisingly


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ric-controversy-has-set-back-bid-for-united-ireland-says-varadkar-1.4134165


Unionist politicians have deplored the decision by Mr Flanagan to call off the planned commemoration for the RIC.

The DUP, Ulster Unionist Party and the Traditional Unionist voice said the decision and the reaction to the proposal raised questions about how unionists would be treated in a united Ireland.

"Those leading the vehement opposition to this event are the same people who tell those of us in Northern Ireland that British identity would be respected and accommodated within some mythical 'new Ireland'," said Mr Donaldson.


"When agreement cannot be found to commemorate those who died 100 years ago it is a clear demonstration of how far we still have to travel in terms of respect and reconciliation, particularly in relation to the British identity in Northern Ireland by republicans," he added.


Mr Donaldson said that those who served in the RIC and the Dublin Metropolitan Police (DMP) "were Irish men and women from all religious backgrounds who lived and worked in an Ireland that was politically united".

"Many of them suffered or were murdered for no reason other than the fact they wore a crown on their uniform, and it is difficult to escape the conclusion that opposition to this commemoration is based again on that," he added.

Ulster Unionist Party leader, Steve Aiken, said the decision was "disappointing, but not surprising given the tone of the debate and the language used by some of the leaders and elected representatives of political parties in the Republic of Ireland".

"It exposed a direct and underlying contradiction to their previous public statements about reconciliation," he said.

"The comments coming from Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin representatives were deeply regrettable and will further affirm the view among many unionists in Northern Ireland that there are many within the Republic of Ireland who continue to hold a deep animosity against anyone or any organisation linked to 'the Brits'," he added.

Mr Aiken said that describing members of the RIC as "colonialists" and "oppressors" when the "vast majority of these men came from the island of Ireland, and served their communities with dedication, is an insult to their memory and their descendants".

"These types of comments do nothing to build reconciliation and demonstrate that some elements of society with the Republic of Ireland remain openly hostile to the British identity or those perceived to be associated with it," he added.

"This hostility will not be lost on unionists who are the subject of repeated entreaties to consider embracing Irish unity and who are constantly assured that all would be well. Actions really do speak louder than words," said Mr Aiken.

You could paint the Kerbs from dundalk to dublin red, white and blue and it wouldnt change anything for these particular gobshites. Only Leo the clown would take any heed of this.

Shocker that people had a problem with a crown uniform after hundreds of years of persecution by aforementioned crown.

Quote from: five points on January 07, 2020, 10:33:20 AM

Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2020, 10:02:12 AM
The RIC actively and nastily fought against the establishment of an Independent Irish State as voted for in 1918.

If this true, why were they inducted in large numbers into the Garda Siochana upon its formation and as such enjoyed almost universal public support thenceforth?

About 200 former RIC members (most of whom had resigned from the force before 1920) joined the Gardaí over the period from 1922 to 1933. 13 joined directly.

While the RIC were not the same thing as the Black and Tans and Auxies, certainly before 1920, they were both under the same command from early 1920 on and by the time of the truce the majority of "RIC" personnel in the 26 counties were either Black and Tans or Auxiliaries. Most RIC members prior to 1920 were Catholic and presumably small n- nationalist in politics, but the higher command structure remained solidly unionist.

The whole thing comes across as being a failed attempt at culture-war politics by a clique within FG who don't understand their own party never mind the country as a whole.

Flanagan has form in terms of trying to troll Shinners (the "cu*t politics" stuff on Twitter that he had to apologise for in 2015 when he was Foreign Affairs Minister supposedly supervising politics in the North) and has come out with stuff in the recent past about the RIC merely maintaining the rule of law in 1920 and being "murdered" in the line of duty. There was a lot of nasty and unheroic stuff on all sides in the War of Independence but if you implicitly label the Old IRA as "murderers" then the effect is to delegitimise the 26-county state that emerged from the Old IRA's struggle - a state that FG are anxious to fetishise in other contexts. Neither he nor Varadkar - we won't get onto Bruton's attempts to whitewash the Black and Tans the other night - seemed to grasp that they weren't just tweaking the nose of SF or of FF but rubbing the majority of their own supporters up the wrong way.

+1.
Flanagan was left red faced some years ago in the Dáil. He launched an attack on the Shinners for wearing Easter lilies, then his FG colleague Frankie Feighan sat beside him sporting a lily.

Quote from: LaurelEye on January 08, 2020, 11:11:01 PM

Flanagan has form in terms of trying to troll Shinners

Very true, yet less than a month ago the same Shinners were backing Flanagan's proposed new law on hate speech, which if it ever sees the light of day will forbid us all from questioning or robustly discussing issues like this if there is a "diversity" angle.

The RIC commemoration didn't bother me at all but it would have been wrong to ignore the groundswell of opinion against it.

Come out aye Black and Tans is currently number 1 in the uk iTunes chart. Well played Leo.

Quote from: Harold Disgracey on January 09, 2020, 11:29:53 AM
Come out aye Black and Tans is currently number 1 in the uk iTunes chart. Well played Leo.

Steve Coogan surely played a role in popularising the tune too.

And Mary Lou will let them have the Twelfth in a United Ireland. . . isn't that pure daycent!

Quote from: screenexile on January 09, 2020, 12:32:21 PM
And Mary Lou will let them have the Twelfth in a United Ireland. . . isn't that pure daycent!

It actually is daycent to allow them have a sectarian march by a sectarian organisation. However, I think in a united Ireland the protestants in the 6 will eventually see it for what it is and get on with more important things like their long lost cousins in the south.

Quote from: five points on January 09, 2020, 09:54:46 AM

Quote from: LaurelEye on January 08, 2020, 11:11:01 PM

Flanagan has form in terms of trying to troll Shinners

Very true, yet less than a month ago the same Shinners were backing Flanagan's proposed new law on hate speech, which if it ever sees the light of day will forbid us all from questioning or robustly discussing issues like this if there is a "diversity" angle.

The RIC commemoration didn't bother me at all but it would have been wrong to ignore the groundswell of opinion against it.

Bullshit. Its brining a 30 year old law into the digital age.

Is there any chance of getting it to the official British no 1?

Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 09, 2020, 02:26:34 PM

Quote from: five points on January 09, 2020, 09:54:46 AM

Quote from: LaurelEye on January 08, 2020, 11:11:01 PM

Flanagan has form in terms of trying to troll Shinners

Very true, yet less than a month ago the same Shinners were backing Flanagan's proposed new law on hate speech, which if it ever sees the light of day will forbid us all from questioning or robustly discussing issues like this if there is a "diversity" angle.

The RIC commemoration didn't bother me at all but it would have been wrong to ignore the groundswell of opinion against it.

Bullshit. Its brining a 30 year old law into the digital age.

Bullshit how? We'll still be able to challenge Flanagan, when he tries to flog the diversity horse, without having to worry about the peelers landing on our doors, or we won't?

(The idea that laws go obsolete after 30 years is kinda funny too.)

Quote from: screenexile on January 09, 2020, 12:32:21 PM
And Mary Lou will let them have the Twelfth in a United Ireland. . . isn't that pure daycent!

Take away the military paraphernalia and ant-Catholic sentiment and it could be a decent enough spectacle and attraction for tourists.

PS. Should someone let Mary-Lou know that they already parade in Donegal every year?

Quote from: five points on January 09, 2020, 03:45:49 PM

Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 09, 2020, 02:26:34 PM

Quote from: five points on January 09, 2020, 09:54:46 AM

Quote from: LaurelEye on January 08, 2020, 11:11:01 PM

Flanagan has form in terms of trying to troll Shinners

Very true, yet less than a month ago the same Shinners were backing Flanagan's proposed new law on hate speech, which if it ever sees the light of day will forbid us all from questioning or robustly discussing issues like this if there is a "diversity" angle.

The RIC commemoration didn't bother me at all but it would have been wrong to ignore the groundswell of opinion against it.

Bullshit. Its brining a 30 year old law into the digital age.

Bullshit how? We'll still be able to challenge Flanagan, when he tries to flog the diversity horse, without having to worry about the peelers landing on our doors, or we won't?

(The idea that laws go obsolete after 30 years is kinda funny too.)

Bullshit in that the law exists and nobody stopped anyone challenging Flanagan.

What technological advances in terms of communication have happened in the last 30 years do you reckon?

If you say it, write it, print it, say it down the phone, text it or email it, its a criminal offence. Tweet it, Facebook it, use a forum, its not. Thats all this legislation will change.

If you really believe they are changing the law to criminalise criticism of the government I have some magic beans for sale.