America`s Gun Culture

Started by Wildweasel74, December 14, 2012, 06:00:57 PM

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armaghniac

Quote from: whitey on December 03, 2015, 07:06:33 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 06:17:33 PM
These people were either opposed to the American way of life or had embraced the American way of life. Same outcome either way.

Stop talking $hite......the number of Americans who commit mass murder is probably 1/100 of 1%

That wasn't quite my point. Americans believe people should keep an arsenal in their house. which isn't the case in other developed countries.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

easytiger95

Hey - very interesting article here. I know it comes from Salon which can be a very one eyed leftie site, but this is actually balanced in its critique of both sides of the argument and the statistics are actually stunning.

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/04/americas_gun_insanity_is_crazier_than_you_think_our_delusional_era_of_everyday_mass_shootings_and_record_low_crime_rates/

muppet

Quote from: whitey on December 03, 2015, 04:31:20 PM
http://www.kpho.com/story/30644963/arpaio-calls-on-250k-armed-citizens-to-stop-terrorism-and-mass-shootings


What a great idea!!!!!!

A brilliant idea. Create peace by taking away the bad guy's advantage.

This concept could be used globally.

We should give the Palestinians 1,000 nuclear warheads and 100 F-16s. That would guarantee peace in the Middle East.

Syrians rebels should also get nukes, along with Ukranians, Georgians, Chechens, Republican dissidents and any active Loyalist terrorists.

Passengers on all flights should get a set of headphones and a Beretta in their seat pockets. No more hijackings then.

Considering the history of Croke Park, and the distance from the seats to the pitch, all fans should be handed M-16s on entry. Patrons of Hill 16 should also get a couple of grenades. You can't be safe enough these days.
MWWSI 2017

omaghjoe

Quote from: easytiger95 on December 04, 2015, 11:35:59 AM
Hey - very interesting article here. I know it comes from Salon which can be a very one eyed leftie site, but this is actually balanced in its critique of both sides of the argument and the statistics are actually stunning.

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/04/americas_gun_insanity_is_crazier_than_you_think_our_delusional_era_of_everyday_mass_shootings_and_record_low_crime_rates/

An excellent point well made but comes with a prelude of waffle and insults which you will have to wade through, but maybe he was tying to ironically illustrate his point by doing that?

I often make a similar point, weirdly enough at Thanksgiving as well, but I compare it to motor vehicle deaths, which are something like X3 times the murder death rate and largely non intentional. The effect is the progressives think Im pro gun and the righties think Im anti car. Whereas the reality is actually the opposite (on guns at least, more middle ground on cars)

But my point is that, remove the intend of murder deaths and you remove the death (largely) Unfortunately this is pretty much the same argument as the NRA "guns dont kill people, people do", which I believe to be a valid argument to murders but not against gun control. Anyway this leaves me alienated as a lunnie by both sides at worst, and standing on the fence at best. Where as Im just trying to come up with a proposal based on the facts we know and logic

But the dropping murder rate is an elephant in the room that fits neither sides perception so its ignored, the media have a lot to do with this polarising nature of politics in America and its the classic either or fallacy ( and probably a good few other fallacies to!) which is repeated over and over again and a range of political subjects.

J70

Quote from: whitey on December 03, 2015, 04:31:20 PM
http://www.kpho.com/story/30644963/arpaio-calls-on-250k-armed-citizens-to-stop-terrorism-and-mass-shootings


What a great idea!!!!!!

Yes, just what we need. Flustered, scared Joe Soaps whipping out their 45s adding more bullets in the mayhem.

"I didn't mean to shoot those three kids your honour, I was trying to stop the bad guy!"

About time that auld bastard headed for the nursing home!

bennydorano

San Bernadino an Act of Terrorism. Strange one.

moysider

Quote from: bennydorano on December 04, 2015, 10:15:53 PM
San Bernadino an Act of Terrorism. Strange one.

A Godsend for the gun industry.

This will encourage more people to get/carry guns.

Hillary will be staying away from this issue if she has any sense. Toxic for a politician.

armaghniac

Quote from: bennydorano on December 04, 2015, 10:15:53 PM
San Bernadino an Act of Terrorism. Strange one.

IMHO it is a kind of Frankenstein synthesis between a local gun incident and terrorism. Yer man was a shooting enthusiast who didn't like his boss and his missus was connecting with Islamic loonies. Real terrorists might have had a different target, maybe somewhere high profile in LA. They will have done nothing for workplace relations in the US, these workers had a baby shower for these people a few months ago and they then come back and kill them.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

moysider

Quote from: armaghniac on December 04, 2015, 10:42:42 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 04, 2015, 10:15:53 PM
San Bernadino an Act of Terrorism. Strange one.

IMHO it is a kind of Frankenstein synthesis between a local gun incident and terrorism. Yer man was a shooting enthusiast who didn't like his boss and his missus was connecting with Islamic loonies. Real terrorists might have had a different target, maybe somewhere high profile in LA. They will have done nothing for workplace relations in the US, these workers had a baby shower for these people a few months ago and they then come back and kill them.

Not necessarily. It appears that IS has changed tack from Al Qaeda and is encouraging it's operatives to hit soft targets rather than blow up the big building approach. You can see why it would be more effective as well. The general public can t feel safe anywhere anymore and will start getting very nervous.
Hence the Godsend for the gun lobby. Ordinary people know the terrorists and assorted loonies and criminals are armed to the teeth anyway and they are told it might be better if gun laws for the general population are tightened up. How does Hillary or anybody else go about selling that? It would be political suicide.
Those people were active/on the run for at least 2 hours? the last day before they were stopped. That in itself would alarm many people. That's a lot of killing time.
  This seems be 100% terrorism. It was premeditated. It was not a result of an incidental row. They were wearing cameras and had combat gear on. They arrived at the party with guns and bombs.
Work place dispute? you don t bring your wife with loaded assault rifles to settle a work place dispute. Nor does one leave their 6 month old baby to get killed solving a work place dispute. People are delusional if they think this was anything but a well planned, and financed terrorist attack. The only difference with Paris is less involved and this guy known to those he killed. Soft opportunistic target.

armaghniac

I'm not sure about the careful planning aspect of things. They drove home after the attack, why not attack somewhere else?

An attack was premeditated, the exact one was tied into the people involved.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

whitey

Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

Oraisteach

#566
Whitey, as compelling as this argument sounds, many weapons used in killings in the US have been purchased legally.  I'm sure you've read that a couple of thousand of people on the no-fly list can still buy firearms legally.  Don't you think if they're considered too dangerous to take a flight they should be prohibited from amassing an arsenal.  According to the NY Times, the guns used in 15 recent mass shootings were bought legally, and at least 8 gunmen had criminal histories or documented mental health problems that did not prevent them from obtaining their weapons.  For the life of me, I don't understand why military grade assault rifles are readily for sale, yet marijuana is almost universally banned (another topic for another time). According to the Washington Post, over 75% ofthe weapons used in mass killings over the last 30 years had been purchased legally. 

Additionally, the world is aghast that 12 died in the Charlie Hebdo incident and 128 (I believe) in the recent Paris terrorist attack, but well over 82,000 have suffered gun deaths since Sandy Hook. 82,000 people, for crying out loud, and the response is to make guns more available rather than imposing rational common-sense regulations.

S%#t, I'm nervous about merging in traffic lest some gun-toting ass with anger issues thinks I cut him off.

moysider

Quote from: armaghniac on December 04, 2015, 11:14:15 PM
I'm not sure about the careful planning aspect of things. They drove home after the attack, why not attack somewhere else?

An attack was premeditated, the exact one was tied into the people involved.

Well there must have been care and planning involved if they managed to make and conceal homemade bombs in their own house. Maybe you can buy guns in department stores in the US  but they hardly sell pipe bombs in Walmart.

It renders the agonising about gun laws obsolete and makes any politician that takes on the NRA look like a fool.

It also shows intelligence has failed. This will lead to more Americans buying firearms. Back in the day of McCarty and the communist scaremongering there were no Russians in the US coming to an event near you armed to the teeth. This event shows that there may be numerous cells - undetected and unexpected - that can strike anywhere, anytime. That is the ultimate terror for people.
Warfare has always evolved. The days of flying aeroplanes into buildings has gone. It has developed into a smaller focus but probably more terrifying tactic.


easytiger95

Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

And the author is completely guilty of the misconception she decries in the sentence in bold. And does not have a handle on the facts. Illegally held weapons are a constant low grade problem. The mass shooters are using legally held weapons and the people using them are not career criminals. Given these facts, the logical conclusion is to limit the supply to the general population and let the police deal with career criminals and their illegally held weapons. Unfortunately the tone of debate in America now does not give precedence to things like logic and fact.

If people in America are scared by the possibility of terrorists/Muslims/refugees/mass shooters they should consider the rest of us looking in, absolutely petrified by what we see their society and political process coming to. It's scarier out here.

Gmac

this latest attack will see gun sales going through the roof again ,the Nra are running adds saying when the Devils come to your church or school or home be ready to send them to paradise
Obama is a disaster as far as most people I talk to think and however crazy people might think it is they believe he is not interested in protecting them . The usa is not Europe or Asia and people don't care how many mass shootings there is they are not giving up there guns .