Would you be in favour of a second tier?

[sid waddell]

Are Dublin not way better than they were in 2006? Also to be honest the game is vastly different from 13/14 years ago. The preparation is on a different level so you would expect skill levels to be better.

To me Westmeath etc are way better than they were. Your barometer is competitiveness. I really don't think Carlow, Westmeath, Antrim etc have been competitive for a long time. Offaly too. I mean competitive against the "big boys". I watched these teams a lot over the years and in most cases they have been poor. The current Westmeath team is not poor, the Kerry team isn't poor, Carlow 10-15 years ago imo these teams were poor.

Your point about playing a higher level is fair enough but if teams are getting hammered, and they are, they are learning nothing. That was what was happening in the hurling. That is what happens a lot in the football now. Football doesn't lend itself to as big hammerings scoreboard wise as hurling but the chances of shocks really remains the same.

I don't disagree with some of your points but when the gap is too big you learn nothing. If the sport is in a place where are too many gaps that are too big then something like splitting championship needs seriously looked at.

If Dublin have improved a lot since 2006, and they have, and most other strong counties have improved to a good degree as well - Galway, Tipp, Wexford, Clare, Limerick and Waterford have at any rate, that makes any improvement in Westmeath moot

Only Cork and Kilkenny have not improved, in Kilkenny's case it would have been pretty much impossible to improve from that 2006-2009 team

Offaly have obviously disimproved hugely but even by 2006 they were already trailing off

If Westmeath are improving by a small amount, but the strong counties are improving by a bigger amount, the gap is wider

Laois and Westmeath and Antrim need to be improving by a bigger amount than the strong counties are improving by to close the gap

And it's almost impossible to do that in a lower tier - you already have a lower standard of club hurling than the strong counties, and when you play inter-county, it's at a lower level too - it's like school - if a child gets put into a lower stream, they fall behind and keep falling behind

That's the future that awaits football with a tiered championship structure, it's already a big problem with the league

A 16 team Division 1 and Division 2, each divided into 2, is a fair compromise between tiers and competitiveness

Take Meath or Kildare

If they were in a Division 1A as opposed to a full Division 1, they would be exposed to some of the very top teams, and OK, they'd probably lose, but they'd probably also be able to get some confidence boosting wins, finish in mid-table, and stay in the same division for next year, when they would be able to get some continuity, go again, and build on the previous year, all the while building up experience and getting to used to a higher pace of game

Meath may have experienced a higher pace of game lately, but they've lost 10 of their last 13 games, with only two wins, so in terms of confidence, that's a serious setback - it's also nice to win the odd time

Kildare got 0 points in NFL Division 1 in 2018 and I think that knocked them back a good bit in terms of confidence

[sid waddell]

Dublin won the Leinster Championship in 2006. Westmeath beat them in 2004.

Westmeath beat Dublin in hurling in 2006

[Milltown Row2]

So you haven't watched any of the Joe McDonagh games? Why would you? Sunday game won't show them.

Laois pushed Clare this year, beat Dublin a while back, even Antrim beat Dublin under Daly.

Carlow and Kerry are very decent too, and physically big, what we small teams lack is quickness on the ball, that'll come, once the backdoor came in the traditional counties took off!

Breaking into the top tiers needs to be achieved through promotion. You've got to earn it, getting hammered every week will only bring both standards down, the likes of Kerry playing Clare will result in  Kerry throwing out their b team or not getting up for the match, Clare go behind early doors then then it's a collapse, but like Mayo v Tipp, embarrassing.

Whereas when you've beat the teams around you in tight hard fought games and win the final you're above the bottom tier, physically and mentally ready to target the bottom teams in the top group, yes the beatings may come from the top 4/5 but setting your stall out to target the lesser teams will give confidence.

The Sunday Game sometimes shows brief highlights of the lower tier hurling competitions, but it's tokenism, and that's all it will ever be, these second and third tier competitions are of no real interest to television, the viewing public are not interested

Which is a warning as to why they should be avoided in football

As soon as you break into the top tier, you're likely back down straight away because you are not used to the speed of the game at the higher level

This is a pattern in hurling and it's now a pattern for teams who get promoted from Division 2 in football - they go straight back down

It's over 11 years since Antrim beat Dublin

Laois improved because they had Eddie Brennan, who is a good coach and a massive name, who knows what it takes at the highest level, with the best team in history - he is a legend of the game who knows what he's doing - that's why he had total buy in from his players

Also Laois have advantages that Antrim don't have, like geographical proximity to strong hurling counties, meaning a much easier cross-pollination of ideas and people

But Carlow have that too and it's not enough

And but for relegation being abandoned in Leinster this year, Laois would still be back in the Tier 2 competition next year - whoever wins it this year will likely face instant relegation back next year - it's very hard to improve in the long term like that, because it's nearly always one step forward, two steps back - there's no continuity

Laois might get some continuity next year through staying in the Leinster round robin, but now Brennan is gone, which will likely knock them back significantly

Brennan just added to the massive work put in by Cheddar, you'd be foolish to think otherwise.

Beating Dublin 11 years ago .. around the time Dublin football took off!

You can't improve unless the grassroots is in place, sustaining top tier is about improving your underage and schools, pissing against the wind if you think otherwise. Dublin hurling wise did that, they competed and playing the bigger teams is easier at senior level.

I think and it's my opinion that I've seen enough of second tier championship to see benefits... I didn't see any benefits at the weekend of lower teams playing the likes of Mayo or Dublin

Until we Laois Carlow Westmeath and Kerry break into that we won't stay and just be a yo-yo team.

[sid waddell]

So you haven't watched any of the Joe McDonagh games? Why would you? Sunday game won't show them.

Laois pushed Clare this year, beat Dublin a while back, even Antrim beat Dublin under Daly.

Carlow and Kerry are very decent too, and physically big, what we small teams lack is quickness on the ball, that'll come, once the backdoor came in the traditional counties took off!

Breaking into the top tiers needs to be achieved through promotion. You've got to earn it, getting hammered every week will only bring both standards down, the likes of Kerry playing Clare will result in  Kerry throwing out their b team or not getting up for the match, Clare go behind early doors then then it's a collapse, but like Mayo v Tipp, embarrassing.

Whereas when you've beat the teams around you in tight hard fought games and win the final you're above the bottom tier, physically and mentally ready to target the bottom teams in the top group, yes the beatings may come from the top 4/5 but setting your stall out to target the lesser teams will give confidence.

The Sunday Game sometimes shows brief highlights of the lower tier hurling competitions, but it's tokenism, and that's all it will ever be, these second and third tier competitions are of no real interest to television, the viewing public are not interested

Which is a warning as to why they should be avoided in football

As soon as you break into the top tier, you're likely back down straight away because you are not used to the speed of the game at the higher level

This is a pattern in hurling and it's now a pattern for teams who get promoted from Division 2 in football - they go straight back down

It's over 11 years since Antrim beat Dublin

Laois improved because they had Eddie Brennan, who is a good coach and a massive name, who knows what it takes at the highest level, with the best team in history - he is a legend of the game who knows what he's doing - that's why he had total buy in from his players

Also Laois have advantages that Antrim don't have, like geographical proximity to strong hurling counties, meaning a much easier cross-pollination of ideas and people

But Carlow have that too and it's not enough

And but for relegation being abandoned in Leinster this year, Laois would still be back in the Tier 2 competition next year - whoever wins it this year will likely face instant relegation back next year - it's very hard to improve in the long term like that, because it's nearly always one step forward, two steps back - there's no continuity

Laois might get some continuity next year through staying in the Leinster round robin, but now Brennan is gone, which will likely knock them back significantly

Brennan just added to the massive work put in by Cheddar, you'd be foolish to think otherwise.

Beating Dublin 11 years ago .. around the time Dublin football took off!

You can't improve unless the grassroots is in place, sustaining top tier is about improving your underage and schools, pissing against the wind if you think otherwise. Dublin hurling wise did that, they competed and playing the bigger teams is easier at senior level.

I think and it's my opinion that I've seen enough of second tier championship to see benefits... I didn't see any benefits at the weekend of lower teams playing the likes of Mayo or Dublin

Until we Laois Carlow Westmeath and Kerry break into that we won't stay and just be a yo-yo team.

Cheddar is a grand "hurling man" but he is not a top tier inter-county coach by any stretch of the imagination, he's a clear downgrade on Brennan, and that will likely hurt Laois

I stated specifically that competition structures are not a stand alone fix - they will not fix things by themselves - but they are a part of the solution

The benefits of a 16 team Division 1 and Division 2 in football in terms of across the board competitiveness, and the downsides of a Divisions 1 to 4 format in terms of across the board competitiveness have already been proved

[sid waddell]

So I'm wondering if opinions have changed on this topic in the last year.  We had the two big upsets in the provincial finals followed by two absolute hammerings for those teams.  The more I think about this, the more I am on the side of a tier two competition, with continued participation in the provincial championship.

Tipperary, Cavan provincial title success will be talked about for many years to come. If either was to play in this second tier competition and won it,   it would be quickly forgotten about.

The 2001-2017 football championship format was under rated

It struck as good a balance between tradition and modernity as you could have got

The Super 8 format is a dog's dinner and far too skewed towards the strong counties

Had the Super 8 format been brought in in 1978, it would have been Kerry, Dublin, Offaly and Cork in the last four every year

Meath might never have made the breakthrough in 1986 as these counties consolidated

Had it been brought in in 1988, it would have been Meath, Cork, Dublin and Kerry in the semis

The Ulster teams might never have broken through from 1991

Competition structures do make a difference

[Captain Obvious]

So I'm wondering if opinions have changed on this topic in the last year.  We had the two big upsets in the provincial finals followed by two absolute hammerings for those teams.  The more I think about this, the more I am on the side of a tier two competition, with continued participation in the provincial championship.

Tipperary, Cavan provincial title success will be talked about for many years to come. If either was to play in this second tier competition and won it,   it would be quickly forgotten about.

The 2001-2017 football championship format was under rated

It struck as good a balance between tradition and modernity as you could have got

The Super 8 format is a dog's dinner and far too skewed towards the strong counties

Had the Super 8 format been brought in in 1978, it would have been Kerry, Dublin, Offaly and Cork in the last four every year

Meath might never have made the breakthrough in 1986 as these counties consolidated

Had it been brought in in 1988, it would have been Meath, Cork, Dublin and Kerry in the semis

The Ulster teams might never have broken through from 1991

Competition structures do make a difference

Agreed and a cup competition as the All Ireland championship is should be straight knock in the All Ireland series. A group stage for the last 8 was a daft format to have.

[Milltown Row2]

Are Dublin not way better than they were in 2006? Also to be honest the game is vastly different from 13/14 years ago. The preparation is on a different level so you would expect skill levels to be better.

To me Westmeath etc are way better than they were. Your barometer is competitiveness. I really don't think Carlow, Westmeath, Antrim etc have been competitive for a long time. Offaly too. I mean competitive against the "big boys". I watched these teams a lot over the years and in most cases they have been poor. The current Westmeath team is not poor, the Kerry team isn't poor, Carlow 10-15 years ago imo these teams were poor.

Your point about playing a higher level is fair enough but if teams are getting hammered, and they are, they are learning nothing. That was what was happening in the hurling. That is what happens a lot in the football now. Football doesn't lend itself to as big hammerings scoreboard wise as hurling but the chances of shocks really remains the same.

I don't disagree with some of your points but when the gap is too big you learn nothing. If the sport is in a place where are too many gaps that are too big then something like splitting championship needs seriously looked at.

If Dublin have improved a lot since 2006, and they have, and most other strong counties have improved to a good degree as well - Galway, Tipp, Wexford, Clare, Limerick and Waterford have at any rate, that makes any improvement in Westmeath moot

Only Cork and Kilkenny have not improved, in Kilkenny's case it would have been pretty much impossible to improve from that 2006-2009 team

Offaly have obviously disimproved hugely but even by 2006 they were already trailing off

If Westmeath are improving by a small amount, but the strong counties are improving by a bigger amount, the gap is wider

Laois and Westmeath and Antrim need to be improving by a bigger amount than the strong counties are improving by to close the gap

And it's almost impossible to do that in a lower tier - you already have a lower standard of club hurling than the strong counties, and when you play inter-county, it's at a lower level too - it's like school - if a child gets put into a lower stream, they fall behind and keep falling behind

That's the future that awaits football with a tiered championship structure, it's already a big problem with the league

A 16 team Division 1 and Division 2, each divided into 2, is a fair compromise between tiers and competitiveness

Take Meath or Kildare

If they were in a Division 1A as opposed to a full Division 1, they would be exposed to some of the very top teams, and OK, they'd probably lose, but they'd probably also be able to get some confidence boosting wins, finish in mid-table, and stay in the same division for next year, when they would be able to get some continuity, go again, and build on the previous year, all the while building up experience and getting to used to a higher pace of game

Meath may have experienced a higher pace of game lately, but they've lost 10 of their last 13 games, with only two wins, so in terms of confidence, that's a serious setback - it's also nice to win the odd time

Kildare got 0 points in NFL Division 1 in 2018 and I think that knocked them back a good bit in terms of confidence

I'll disagree with the school analogy. If a child is put in the correct level for his education he'll flourish. In a grade above he'll struggle to meet the high standards.

[Lar Naparka]

So I'm wondering if opinions have changed on this topic in the last year.  We had the two big upsets in the provincial finals followed by two absolute hammerings for those teams.  The more I think about this, the more I am on the side of a tier two competition, with continued participation in the provincial championship.

Tipperary, Cavan provincial title success will be talked about for many years to come. If either was to play in this second tier competition and won it,   it would be quickly forgotten about.

The 2001-2017 football championship format was under rated

It struck as good a balance between tradition and modernity as you could have got

The Super 8 format is a dog's dinner and far too skewed towards the strong counties

Had the Super 8 format been brought in in 1978, it would have been Kerry, Dublin, Offaly and Cork in the last four every year

Meath might never have made the breakthrough in 1986 as these counties consolidated

Had it been brought in in 1988, it would have been Meath, Cork, Dublin and Kerry in the semis

The Ulster teams might never have broken through from 1991

Competition structures do make a difference

Agreed and a cup competition as the All Ireland championship is should be straight knock in the All Ireland series. A group stage for the last 8 was a daft format to have.

Agree with that and with what sid has said also.
The Super 8 is indeed a dog's dinner but it was introduced for one reason only and it never was intended to give a wider spread of counties an enhanced chance of winning Sam or anything approaching this.
It was hoisted on the public as a desperate attempt to halt the slide in gate  receipts as attendances have been plummeting in recent years

[The Boy Wonder]

Cheddar is a grand "hurling man" but he is not a top tier inter-county coach by any stretch of the imagination, he's a clear downgrade on Brennan, and that will likely hurt Laois

Laois have had a decent underage coaching and development system in place for a number of years and produced talented minor and U21 hurling teams even though they didn't achieve provincial honours. Eddie Brennan stepped in and brought them forward in a similar way that Micko had done with a talented group of footballers in 2003.

Laois hurling people, and more importantly Laois hurlers, are quite happy that Seamus "Cheddar" Plunkett had stepped back in as manager.
He has always had the best interests of Laois hurling at heart and would not take on the job if he did not believe he could build on the progress made.
The makeup of his backroom team has not yet been announced.

[Eire90]

yeah the super 8s is not good there no need for basically a league at that stage you already have a league i think they wanted to copy the original champions league went into a super 8 at the last 8.

[sid waddell]

Are Dublin not way better than they were in 2006? Also to be honest the game is vastly different from 13/14 years ago. The preparation is on a different level so you would expect skill levels to be better.

To me Westmeath etc are way better than they were. Your barometer is competitiveness. I really don't think Carlow, Westmeath, Antrim etc have been competitive for a long time. Offaly too. I mean competitive against the "big boys". I watched these teams a lot over the years and in most cases they have been poor. The current Westmeath team is not poor, the Kerry team isn't poor, Carlow 10-15 years ago imo these teams were poor.

Your point about playing a higher level is fair enough but if teams are getting hammered, and they are, they are learning nothing. That was what was happening in the hurling. That is what happens a lot in the football now. Football doesn't lend itself to as big hammerings scoreboard wise as hurling but the chances of shocks really remains the same.

I don't disagree with some of your points but when the gap is too big you learn nothing. If the sport is in a place where are too many gaps that are too big then something like splitting championship needs seriously looked at.

If Dublin have improved a lot since 2006, and they have, and most other strong counties have improved to a good degree as well - Galway, Tipp, Wexford, Clare, Limerick and Waterford have at any rate, that makes any improvement in Westmeath moot

Only Cork and Kilkenny have not improved, in Kilkenny's case it would have been pretty much impossible to improve from that 2006-2009 team

Offaly have obviously disimproved hugely but even by 2006 they were already trailing off

If Westmeath are improving by a small amount, but the strong counties are improving by a bigger amount, the gap is wider

Laois and Westmeath and Antrim need to be improving by a bigger amount than the strong counties are improving by to close the gap

And it's almost impossible to do that in a lower tier - you already have a lower standard of club hurling than the strong counties, and when you play inter-county, it's at a lower level too - it's like school - if a child gets put into a lower stream, they fall behind and keep falling behind

That's the future that awaits football with a tiered championship structure, it's already a big problem with the league

A 16 team Division 1 and Division 2, each divided into 2, is a fair compromise between tiers and competitiveness

Take Meath or Kildare

If they were in a Division 1A as opposed to a full Division 1, they would be exposed to some of the very top teams, and OK, they'd probably lose, but they'd probably also be able to get some confidence boosting wins, finish in mid-table, and stay in the same division for next year, when they would be able to get some continuity, go again, and build on the previous year, all the while building up experience and getting to used to a higher pace of game

Meath may have experienced a higher pace of game lately, but they've lost 10 of their last 13 games, with only two wins, so in terms of confidence, that's a serious setback - it's also nice to win the odd time

Kildare got 0 points in NFL Division 1 in 2018 and I think that knocked them back a good bit in terms of confidence

I'll disagree with the school analogy. If a child is put in the correct level for his education he'll flourish. In a grade above he'll struggle to meet the high standards.

Well they might flourish on their own level but the kids in front of them will likely pull away from their level

A bit like Westmeath

And the "exam" is conducted according to what the kids at the higher level have been studying

[sid waddell]

Cheddar is a grand "hurling man" but he is not a top tier inter-county coach by any stretch of the imagination, he's a clear downgrade on Brennan, and that will likely hurt Laois

Laois have had a decent underage coaching and development system in place for a number of years and produced talented minor and U21 hurling teams even though they didn't achieve provincial honours. Eddie Brennan stepped in and brought them forward in a similar way that Micko had done with a talented group of footballers in 2003.

Laois hurling people, and more importantly Laois hurlers, are quite happy that Seamus "Cheddar" Plunkett had stepped back in as manager.
He has always had the best interests of Laois hurling at heart and would not take on the job if he did not believe he could build on the progress made.
The makeup of his backroom team has not yet been announced.

Cheddar clearly has the best interests of Laois hurling at heart and he did a nice job with them in his first spell in charge but I don't think he's at Brennan's level and when a manager comes in who is not as good as the previous one, even if they're only a small bit below the previous level, any sense of inferiority becomes amplified to be bigger than it actually is

Like, when Mick O'Dwyer left Laois they got Liam Kearns who is a decent enough manager in his own right, but he wasn't O'Dwyer and couldn't do what O'Dwyer did, and it fell away bit by bit

Mickey Moran is a fine coach but he was always going to fail with Derry when he took over after Eamon Coleman was sacked, because the players wanted Coleman and were very angry he was sacked

Any amount of other examples too

Cork after Conor Counihan's departure a notable recent one, Rory Gallagher following on from Jim McGuinness another one

This happens across all sport - Carlo Ancelotti bombed at Bayern Munich because he was coming in after Guardiola who challenged players hugely - Ancelotti is a very good manager, but much more low key

[Ed Ricketts]

The benefits of a 16 team Division 1 and Division 2 in football in terms of across the board competitiveness, and the downsides of a Divisions 1 to 4 format in terms of across the board competitiveness have already been proved

They really haven't.

This is peak sid stuff here. A load of contextless examples of stuff thrown together in an attempt to substantiate some categorical assertion. Nothing has been proven other than the fact that fluff plus waffle equals a dubious conclusion.

[sid waddell]

The benefits of a 16 team Division 1 and Division 2 in football in terms of across the board competitiveness, and the downsides of a Divisions 1 to 4 format in terms of across the board competitiveness have already been proved

They really haven't.

This is peak sid stuff here. A load of contextless examples of stuff thrown together in an attempt to substantiate some categorical assertion. Nothing has been proven other than the fact that fluff plus waffle equals a dubious conclusion.

Sligo played Division 1 football from 1999/2000 on, they reached a league semi-final in 2001 - they beat Kildare in the championship that year and then followed it up the next year by beating Tyrone - and should have beaten Armagh

Fermanagh played Division 1 football from 1999/2000 to 2004 inclusive, reaching a league semi-final in 2003 - they reached the All-ireland quarter-finals in 2003 and were a kick of a ball away from the All-Ireland final in 2004

Laois topped 1B in 2003 and reached the League final, they followed it up by winning Leinster and being regular quarter-finalists

Westmeath were a Division 1 team when they won Leinster in 2004 - that spring they had played Dublin, Tyrone, Cork, Kerry and Mayo

Wexford reached a League final in 2005 and had years of solid Division 1 experience before they reached an All-Ireland semi-final in 2008

It is undeniable that Division 1 football helped all these counties hugely

The Divisions 1-4 format came in in 2008

For most of the 2010s, the latter stages of the championship has been a closed shop - Dublin, Kerry and Mayo have all been there pretty much every year, along with one of Donegal or Tyrone, Monaghan have been knocking around the quarter-finals a lot, in the early part of decade Cork were around

These counties all spent all or almost all their time in an eight team Division 1 with a much higher standard of football than any other division - the circle kept reinforcing itself - high standards drove higher standards, and if you fell into Division 2 for a long stretch, you couldn't compete come championship time

Tipperary in 2016 were very much the exception which proved the rule - and they got a lucky draw

[Ed Ricketts]

And again. A load of stuff with no context bunged together to create the illusion that there's a point being made.

For instance, the relative success of Laois in the 2000s had much more to do with the maturation of their double AI winning minor teams from the 1990s than with whatever league structure was in place around the time.

There's no real evidence of the causation you're attempting to claim. Just some Angelo style bunk. And it's clear this is going in the direction of some weird defence of Dublin unity. If us dumb culchies would only push for different structures everything would be great and vibrant and exciting again. And then Dublin wouldn't win everything always and we wouldn't have to split them up to get some semblance of competition.