The Advanced Mark

[Saffrongael]

Watched plenty of All-Ireland finals back past 40yrs recently, you be lucky to get 1 in 4 of them, been a good game, 1 in 10 a outstanding game. Back then, half the lads back in the 80's, got the ball and just kicked it as far as they can. Now u watching  and going, what the hell they at, work it up the field

I agree there was some poor matches especially in the 80s. It got better in the 90s and into the 00s imho. The thing that existing in football back then that made it interesting is jeopardy. Forget about the David Clifford and Con show at the all ireland level, go to a junior or intermediate club match where the teams are trying to copy cat the senior teams and keep the ball - it's completely unwatchable.

Same in hurling, goalkeeper playing a short puc out to a corner back near the sideline - where the ball is invariably fumbled or goes out over the sideline

[J70]

Derryman forever, it's not a cheap shot at all.

This board goes back forever and a day.

Look at threads on rule changes from the early noughties and it's Donegal ones saying there's nothing wrong with the game. Look at the late noughties threads and it's all Dublin ones telling us that we should get better at football instead of trying to change the rules. The past few years it's Derry wans telling us that football is as good to watch now as it ever was.

With all due respect, I don't think people from your county are currently objective about the state of Gaelic Football. This isn't a criticism of Derry btw... you folks didn't create this mess and it's absolute credit that instead of whinging about it, you've caught up.

But football is shite. Absolute shite. That's our sport and it's absolute shite.

We were, but in our defense, it wasn't an obvious certainty (at least to me early on!) that the game would evolve in the manner in did following Jim's lead. I think back to our thrilling semis against Cork and Dublin, when they played open and allowed us to annihilate them on the break. By the 2016 Ulster Final, the writing was on the wall for me (that was like a pair of slow, giant sumo wrestlers going at it, rescued for Tyrone in injury time by three worldie points) and its only gotten worse. When we held the ball for the last 90 seconds of normal time in the 2022 Ulster Final, instead of trying to go for the winning score, I was pretty much done.

I read Jarlath's interview on GAA.ie and his plans for a root and branch look at how the game is played. Hope he succeeds, because I'm finding it hard to even watch Donegal these days. Aside from the freak of nature that is David Clifford, how many GAA stars could be considered among the top sports people in the country? As Burns alludes to when talking about skillful forwards being basically rendered obsolete, without his physique to go with his incredible skillset, would even Clifford be up there?

Clifford is arguably the best of all time. Current stars who would be among the top sports people in the country would surely include Conor Glass, Darragh Canavan, Shane Mcguigan, Con OCallaghan. A lot of people criticise the modern game saying there's no room for flair and marquee forwards don't get a chance but in recent games we've seen Con O'C score 3.4, Shane McGuigan 0.11 and canavan 1.5. There possibly are rules which could be tinkered with slightly but there's still a great game there and the crowds are still turning out to see the games.

Yeah, but back in the day, most counties had a couple of corner forwards who could get a few scores from play on an average day, winning ball and taking on and beating their man. How many of those do we have these days? They're not getting a chance. When's the last time we saw an epic one on one battle? Last one I can think of was Higgins and O'Donoghue, and that was ten years ago! Even at that time, it was a bit of a throwback, which is partly why it got everyone so excited. In the first part of his intercounty career, I used to love watching Karl Lacey go one on one with the likes of Paddy Bradley and Stevie McDonnell. Even when we were utter shite, you knew Lacey would have a great battle with the opposition's top corner forward, just the two of them going at it.

[tyrone08]

No more rule changes until we can properly enforce the rules we have. Can barley go 1 week without seeing 2 refs who have very different interpretation of the rules.

Players constantly blew for touching ball on the ground when the rules actually allow you to.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/gaa/gaa-rules-ball-ground-169516

Certain refs enforcing third man in when it suits and ignoring it other times etc etc

[Milltown Row2]

No more rule changes until we can properly enforce the rules we have. Can barley go 1 week without seeing 2 refs who have very different interpretation of the rules.

Players constantly blew for touching ball on the ground when the rules actually allow you to.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/gaa/gaa-rules-ball-ground-169516

Certain refs enforcing third man in when it suits and ignoring it other times etc etc

Touching the ball on the ground if knocked to the ground while in possession.. standard rule and strange why anyone doesn't know it

You can't though just randomly touch on the ground or strike it without being initially in possession

[trileacman]

Jarlth has plans to look at the game of football and change its negativity

Going to be difficult

I vowed never to type this up again. But I can't help it.

The fundamental problem with football is that the value of possession greatly outweighs the value of territory.

So instead of the rule makers looking at gimmicks - like the advanced mark - they need to look at the fundamental structures of the game.

Bring in the half court rule (no returning over either 45) and bring in a substantial penalty for breaking the rule (45m free from hand or the ground).

There will be a period of adjustment when (particular club) teams who've spent the past 10 years protecting the D, are afraid to leave the D at all. But it'll slowly dawn on everyone that when the opposition press you, the best thing you can do is move the ball quickly into the spaces left in their half. And I before long they'll understand that if they don't score every time it doesn't matter - as the ball will be returned to them much more often under these principles.

Under these rules Id just coach my team to play Mourinho ball. Take an early lead. Then simply retreat all 15 of our players into my own half. If the opposing team are down 3/4 points they can't just sit back. They must advance into our half. And once they do they're trapped in it. Win a turnover and break into the oceans of space present in their half because all of my team and a large proportion of theirs are in my half.

This would ingrain the current extra-time tactic of mass retreat by the leading team.

Someone gets it...

That they might. What I mean is that they might well be right and I'm barking up the wrong tree.

But I'd ask this

1. What is actually different between this proposed version of "Mourinho ball" and the one that currently takes place? They're following exactly the same principles to me.

2. How many men do you actually think you would need to press into the opposition 45 to push them out? Be honest. Let's say 10. Maybe 11 against a highly skilled possession team. You won't need 15, that's for sure.  Yeah that would leave oceans of space in your own half. But unless your opponents leave men up too, then there shouldn't be that overlap described.

Addressing points in order

1. There's no difference between current tactics and my Mourinho ball scenario. That's the point I'm making. You're advocating for a rule change which by your own admission will cement the current state of the game. Unless you can propose why a team 2 or 3 points up would advance into the opposition 45 when they know that as soon as the attacking team cross the 45 the space they can use decreases by 40%.

2. You're describing why teams should press up. You haven't explained how teams are encouraged to press up under your proposed rules. It seems self evident to me that a half court rule would encourage teams to retreat to the 45 as they're then having to defend a much smaller pitch with the same amount of players.


Coaches/teams aren't intrinsically negative or defensive. Their focus is on winning and being competitive. If pushing up worked easily then coaches and the top teams would do that. But the risks far outweigh the rewards and so teams, especially at the start of games when they are trying to be overrun, and at the end when they are tired chose to defend deep and in numbers. Simply stating in print that pushing up on teams is a winning strategy doesn't make it so. If it were you'd see it every Sunday.

[tyrone08]

No more rule changes until we can properly enforce the rules we have. Can barley go 1 week without seeing 2 refs who have very different interpretation of the rules.

Players constantly blew for touching ball on the ground when the rules actually allow you to.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/gaa/gaa-rules-ball-ground-169516

Certain refs enforcing third man in when it suits and ignoring it other times etc etc

Touching the ball on the ground if knocked to the ground while in possession.. standard rule and strange why anyone doesn't know it

You can't though just randomly touch on the ground or strike it without being initially in possession

Majority of time the player who has the ball gets knocked to the ground he envibilty touches it on the groubd he gets blown for it. Never seen this rule implemented

[Dreadnought]

No more rule changes until we can properly enforce the rules we have. Can barley go 1 week without seeing 2 refs who have very different interpretation of the rules.

Players constantly blew for touching ball on the ground when the rules actually allow you to.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/gaa/gaa-rules-ball-ground-169516

Certain refs enforcing third man in when it suits and ignoring it other times etc etc

Touching the ball on the ground if knocked to the ground while in possession.. standard rule and strange why anyone doesn't know it

You can't though just randomly touch on the ground or strike it without being initially in possession

Majority of time the player who has the ball gets knocked to the ground he envibilty touches it on the groubd he gets blown for it. Never seen this rule implemented

I don;t think they do actually. In Tailteann Cup final 2022, a Westmeath player fell to the ground, and played the ball along the ground in the build up to their goal. We were incensed. But turns out when a player falls to ground, they can indeed allow the ball to touch the ground and play it. Now that I know this rule (didn't before this one) I've noticed it and see refs allowing it

[Armagh18]

No more rule changes until we can properly enforce the rules we have. Can barley go 1 week without seeing 2 refs who have very different interpretation of the rules.

Players constantly blew for touching ball on the ground when the rules actually allow you to.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/gaa/gaa-rules-ball-ground-169516

Certain refs enforcing third man in when it suits and ignoring it other times etc etc

Touching the ball on the ground if knocked to the ground while in possession.. standard rule and strange why anyone doesn't know it

You can't though just randomly touch on the ground or strike it without being initially in possession

Majority of time the player who has the ball gets knocked to the ground he envibilty touches it on the groubd he gets blown for it. Never seen this rule implemented

I don;t think they do actually. In Tailteann Cup final 2022, a Westmeath player fell to the ground, and played the ball along the ground in the build up to their goal. We were incensed. But turns out when a player falls to ground, they can indeed allow the ball to touch the ground and play it. Now that I know this rule (didn't before this one) I've noticed it and see refs allowing it

I think it was brought in as a safety thing- you're obviously vulnerable on the ground so you can flick the ball away from yourself to protect you.

[Rossfan]

What percentage of Gaaboarders know the playing rules fully?

[Armagh18]

What percentage of Gaaboarders know the playing rules fully?

0 I'd say?

[Milltown Row2]

No more rule changes until we can properly enforce the rules we have. Can barley go 1 week without seeing 2 refs who have very different interpretation of the rules.

Players constantly blew for touching ball on the ground when the rules actually allow you to.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/gaa/gaa-rules-ball-ground-169516

Certain refs enforcing third man in when it suits and ignoring it other times etc etc

Touching the ball on the ground if knocked to the ground while in possession.. standard rule and strange why anyone doesn't know it

You can't though just randomly touch on the ground or strike it without being initially in possession

Majority of time the player who has the ball gets knocked to the ground he envibilty touches it on the groubd he gets blown for it. Never seen this rule implemented

You didn't in your first post. You said players getting constantly blown for touching the ball on the ground when the rules actually allow you.. That's not the case nor is it even close to the majority of times that the ball is actually touched on the ground in the game.

This is the annoying thing when gobshites behind the fence haven't a "scobby doo" about the rules but give off regardless

[Dreadnought]

What percentage of Gaaboarders know the playing rules fully?

Not many. I thought I knew the rules quite well, but found that one out in 2022. So every day a school day and all that

[thewobbler]

Jarlth has plans to look at the game of football and change its negativity

Going to be difficult

I vowed never to type this up again. But I can't help it.

The fundamental problem with football is that the value of possession greatly outweighs the value of territory.

So instead of the rule makers looking at gimmicks - like the advanced mark - they need to look at the fundamental structures of the game.

Bring in the half court rule (no returning over either 45) and bring in a substantial penalty for breaking the rule (45m free from hand or the ground).

There will be a period of adjustment when (particular club) teams who've spent the past 10 years protecting the D, are afraid to leave the D at all. But it'll slowly dawn on everyone that when the opposition press you, the best thing you can do is move the ball quickly into the spaces left in their half. And I before long they'll understand that if they don't score every time it doesn't matter - as the ball will be returned to them much more often under these principles.

Under these rules Id just coach my team to play Mourinho ball. Take an early lead. Then simply retreat all 15 of our players into my own half. If the opposing team are down 3/4 points they can't just sit back. They must advance into our half. And once they do they're trapped in it. Win a turnover and break into the oceans of space present in their half because all of my team and a large proportion of theirs are in my half.

This would ingrain the current extra-time tactic of mass retreat by the leading team.

Someone gets it...

That they might. What I mean is that they might well be right and I'm barking up the wrong tree.

But I'd ask this

1. What is actually different between this proposed version of "Mourinho ball" and the one that currently takes place? They're following exactly the same principles to me.

2. How many men do you actually think you would need to press into the opposition 45 to push them out? Be honest. Let's say 10. Maybe 11 against a highly skilled possession team. You won't need 15, that's for sure.  Yeah that would leave oceans of space in your own half. But unless your opponents leave men up too, then there shouldn't be that overlap described.

Addressing points in order

1. There's no difference between current tactics and my Mourinho ball scenario. That's the point I'm making. You're advocating for a rule change which by your own admission will cement the current state of the game. Unless you can propose why a team 2 or 3 points up would advance into the opposition 45 when they know that as soon as the attacking team cross the 45 the space they can use decreases by 40%.

2. You're describing why teams should press up. You haven't explained how teams are encouraged to press up under your proposed rules. It seems self evident to me that a half court rule would encourage teams to retreat to the 45 as they're then having to defend a much smaller pitch with the same amount of players.


Coaches/teams aren't intrinsically negative or defensive. Their focus is on winning and being competitive. If pushing up worked easily then coaches and the top teams would do that. But the risks far outweigh the rewards and so teams, especially at the start of games when they are trying to be overrun, and at the end when they are tired chose to defend deep and in numbers. Simply stating in print that pushing up on teams is a winning strategy doesn't make it so. If it were you'd see it every Sunday.

My take Trileacman.

1. Our rules as they stand, mean that should neither team have an interest in attacking, then it's more than feasible that each would simply stay in their own half and play keep ball. Introducing back court lines does not make this situation any more or any less feasible.

2. Our rules as they stand do not prevent two teams that are hell bent on playing attacking football, from putting on a show. But both teams have to be (roughly) equally committed to this concept for it to work. Which is hen's teeth stuff.

3. The biggest weakness in the current rules/structures is that when one team wants to attack and the other wants only to contain, then the attacking team has little choice but to adapt their game and play containment football. Otherwise  they'll spend all their energy chasing shadows when they don't have the ball, going around in circles when they do have the ball, and chasing lost causes when their opponents counter attack. They have effectively no choice but to mirror their opponents' strategy and just be better at it.

4. What the backcourt rule would do - I believe - is provide some balance to that weakness above. The most simple explainer for this is how a negative/containment team would have to completely redress  their own kickout strategy. Currently the attack minded opposition can push up across the board and try to force the kickout to go long. But should the defending team conjure a soft spot, or indeed regain their own kickout literally anywhere on the field, they can choose to go backwards and play receycle-til-we-die. With a back court rule, the attacking team could, most of the time, ensure the kickout must go beyond the 45 by pushing 7-8 players up into 3 banks. And once that kickout goes long, it's not going back into the originating 45 unless the attacking team take it there. recycle-til-we-die just won't be an attractive option without the bail out option. The new bail out option would be to send it long.

5. Coaches, certainly in club football, are in my opinion intrinsically negative. As a rule, they will forego improvements in basic skills, in favour of focusing on ensuring that mistakes in basic skills go unpunished insofar as possible. And every (club) coach in Ireland will overload his "tactic" in this regard with safety first hand passing, backwards and lateral.

[tyrone08]

No more rule changes until we can properly enforce the rules we have. Can barley go 1 week without seeing 2 refs who have very different interpretation of the rules.

Players constantly blew for touching ball on the ground when the rules actually allow you to.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/gaa/gaa-rules-ball-ground-169516

Certain refs enforcing third man in when it suits and ignoring it other times etc etc

Touching the ball on the ground if knocked to the ground while in possession.. standard rule and strange why anyone doesn't know it

You can't though just randomly touch on the ground or strike it without being initially in possession

Majority of time the player who has the ball gets knocked to the ground he envibilty touches it on the groubd he gets blown for it. Never seen this rule implemented

You didn't in your first post. You said players getting constantly blown for touching the ball on the ground when the rules actually allow you.. That's not the case nor is it even close to the majority of times that the ball is actually touched on the ground in the game.

This is the annoying thing when gobshites behind the fence haven't a "scobby doo" about the rules but give off regardless

When would a player be on the ground touching the ball without having first been in possesion of it??

Jesus use a bit of common sense. Anytime a player touches the ball on the ground its because he was originally in possession and forced to the ground.

How many times in a game do you see a player tackled, falls to ground and touches the ball. He immediately gets blown and a free given against him even though he is actually allowed to play the ball on the ground as he was originally in possession.

[thewobbler]

I don't think you're getting it Tyrone08.

If a high ball /long ball is broken down, and both (or multiple) players end up on the ground, if any of them touches it then it's a foul. For neither was in possession.

If a player is dispossessed by a tackle or shoulder just before falling to the ground, then then he wasn't in possession of the ball before falling, so if he touches it, it's a foul.

If a player on the ground makes any attempt to regain possession of the ball then it's a foul. He can swot it away. But he can't protect it.