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As above..

Personally I think they're excellent - smaller, conditioned games, each player seeing more of the ball, skills points - it can only improve a players development..

They have there place but only in conjunction with some format of competitive games. Mickey Harte wrote a decent column on the issue a while back. Its important to teach younsters to lose as well as win.

I agree with both the previous posters. You have to have winners and losers I think, and you have to have competition, because to be honest all kids compete in everything. But what the emphasis should be on is participation, and improvements, and thus the Go Games have merit with the conditioned games.

Normal games are too easy to dominate if you are the big or better kid, and it's too easy for the smaller, or weaker kids to hide. Small sided games, and modified games, allow everyone to develop, including the good big kid as well.

Also, a hugely important thing is that the parents see these games as so different to 'championship' that they are used to , that their own behaviour is much better, and focuses on the enjoyment of the game, as well as encouraging their youngsters.

I went to a club here in Tipperary one time, and it was an Under 8 'blitz'. Under 8s. Each club was allowed field one team.

13 a side.

15 minutes a side.

3 games + a 'final'.

Each club had about 10 subs. I'd say some subs saw about 15 minutes action in total, and when they were on, they just stood in the corner doing nothing.

It was an absolute joke. Would have been a great thing at under 16 or minor level, but an absolute horror show for under 8s.

The blitzes now could have 10 games of 5v5, 6v6 or whatever going on at that same time on one full sized pitch, with 120 kids or even more all playing every minute. Each game counts, and each game has winners and losers, but there's no 'final' as such.

In short, I like the concept, but I agree that there is a place for the competitive element. Kids are not stupid, they know when they win or lose, but I think it's as much to drive that point home to the parents and mentors as to the kids.

I agree AZ - we are organising friendlies on the fortnights between the Go Games blitzes for the U8s.

They are 13 a side, and an absolute nightmare, yet quite entertaining at the same time (if you are not a coach)

But the smaller 9v9 or 6v6 means they all have to play instead of trying out WWE moves on each other when the ball is not near them.

Go Games should only be used in a blitz capacity and even then to a limited extent. I have spoken to people who have coached at rugby in particular and they felt that the similar system they had in fact lowered the overall level of skill. Instead of the weaker players improving, the better players became lazy and regressed as the competitive edge was removed. I feel the GAA has tried to 'ape' other sports yet in many ways they are playing into their hands by downgrading the quality of their players. I watch my sons team and remember what we were like at his age.  We were all capable of kicking with both feet.  We 2 and maybe 3 players who could score points in excess of 35 metres. We had 2 players who could score 45's. My sons team would not have those types of players.  We worked very much on the basis of developing basic skills from we were very young and there were no convoluted training drills with copious amounts of cones.

Gaelic football is a competitive 15 a side game not a babysitter for Olivia so she can go to her pilates with Julia.  I personally think for the good of the future development of the game and also for the preparation of our younger generation for very tough times we need to harden their skins and either get them ready to deal with disappointment or make winners of them.     

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 21, 2011, 10:51:23 PM
Go Games should only be used in a blitz capacity and even then to a limited extent. I have spoken to people who have coached at rugby in particular and they felt that the similar system they had in fact lowered the overall level of skill. Instead of the weaker players improving, the better players became lazy and regressed as the competitive edge was removed. I feel the GAA has tried to 'ape' other sports yet in many ways they are playing into their hands by downgrading the quality of their players. I watch my sons team and remember what we were like at his age.  We were all capable of kicking with both feet.  We 2 and maybe 3 players who could score points in excess of 35 metres. We had 2 players who could score 45's. My sons team would not have those types of players.  We worked very much on the basis of developing basic skills from we were very young and there were no convoluted training drills with copious amounts of cones.

The other side of the coin needs to be looked at too BC. I'm sure you could identify strengths in your son's team that perhaps your team didn't possess at that age. I'd imagine there's a sharper awareness of percentage play now (less aimless hit and hope). At least that's my experience at an Antrim club for 4-12 year olds. I'm not saying it's a tactical brain drain but, compared to my own experience in East Tyrone circa 1982, there seems to be an emphasis on smarter play.

Sorry BC, we'll have to argue this out over a few pints in Wicklow. Remember I'm talking Under 6s and 8s here. It does them absolutely, and I mean absolutely, no good to play 15 a side where they might touch the ball once in a game.

You might have had a team of supermen, but I bet you played a lot more ball in your off time, which honed those skills, like myself.

This generation does not have 12 hours in the park with no one minding them, they need to be helped do the things that we picked up from playing.

I know the coaching is much better these days, and I think the Go Games, certainly for the wee kids, is a good approach in moderation.

I'm not one for the creche approach either, that annoys my happiness, but I do think all kids learn more in small games, where they are focussing on one or two skills, and not completely on winning the game. Winning is important, but not the only thing.

Plenty of time to harden their skins when they are 12-14 and older.

Good points well made in the last few posts there.
In our scenario, we have five, maybe six players of a decent standard at U8 - when it is 13 a side, they get hammered every match, which leads to the best players becoming very despondent that they are working like mad to win, and getting nothing for it. Whereas when it drops to lesser numbers, they compete very well with the other teams and winning a few of those games keeps the enthusiasm going.

They would generally be more tactically aware and certainly more unit based then we were but I believe on a pure skill level my generation were significantly more advanced and also as we played maybe 2-3 years above ourselves sometimes we were physically more advanced. I could be wrong of course and looking through Miller tainted glasses!

I'd imagine Crossmaglen's success isn't an accident. Their capacity to win All-Irelands with completely different sides suggests they had/have tremendously talented coaches at underage (maybe the schools) with vision.

My experience was "use your height and your weight" and that was it. 15v15 or maybe 13v13 at U12 simply meant making sure the biggest lad was given the ball. Reams of games passed by without anyone developing as a player for that reason no matter how successful you were.

Problem now is that the small player isn't getting as much chances at Senior level, you have to be about 6 foot and built like a tank.

Quote from: thejuice on April 21, 2011, 11:16:02 PM
Problem now is that the small player isn't getting as much chances at Senior level, you have to be about 6 foot and built like a tank.

? I presume you mean at county level? Even then I'm not sure how true that is. There's a fair few lads that are neither. Maybe in Meath :D

Quote from: thejuice on April 21, 2011, 11:16:02 PM
Problem now is that the small player isn't getting as much chances at Senior level, you have to be about 6 foot and built like a tank.

I think Tyrone have shown that's not the case. Ricey, Gormley, Jordan, Penrose, Canavan, Mulligan, Carlin, Harte, McGuigan, McCullagh, Dooher at al have provided ample evidence that dedication and talent can get you everywhere compared to the likes of Ciaran Whelan.

That's just not true. There were at least 6-7 of the Cross AI winning team under 6 foot with a good few certainly not brick shit houses.   

Thejuice how many of the Meath team circa 1988 were 'small men'? Buggy and Flynn maybe and that was that.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 21, 2011, 11:29:04 PM
Thejuice how many of the Meath team circa 1988 were 'small men'? Buggy and Flynn maybe and that was that.

Beggy was light, and Flynn was small in height. Foley wasn't a huge man, but he was wirey. Coyler was small but tough as an auld boot. They had big men though, Lyons x 2, Harnan Hayes, O'Rourke, Staffod, Cassells, O'Malley,

Do Kilkenny not use go games or at least non competitive games to under 16 in hurling and Kerry something similar in football. Clearly it is working well for them. In association football that I've coached for years I have pleaded with a similar approach to be taken. In Spain and Holland they play small sided games and non competitive games till they are 15 and both sides are progressing well at international level.

There is plenty of imperical evidence to support the theory that small sided games improve technique and tactical nous and are important for development.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 21, 2011, 10:51:23 PM
Go Games should only be used in a blitz capacity and even then to a limited extent. I have spoken to people who have coached at rugby in particular and they felt that the similar system they had in fact lowered the overall level of skill. Instead of the weaker players improving, the better players became lazy and regressed as the competitive edge was removed. I feel the GAA has tried to 'ape' other sports yet in many ways they are playing into their hands by downgrading the quality of their players. I watch my sons team and remember what we were like at his age.  We were all capable of kicking with both feet.  We 2 and maybe 3 players who could score points in excess of 35 metres. We had 2 players who could score 45's. My sons team would not have those types of players.  We worked very much on the basis of developing basic skills from we were very young and there were no convoluted training drills with copious amounts of cones.

Gaelic football is a competitive 15 a side game not a babysitter for Olivia so she can go to her pilates with Julia.  I personally think for the good of the future development of the game and also for the preparation of our younger generation for very tough times we need to harden their skins and either get them ready to deal with disappointment or make winners of them.   

There is no evidence to suggest any of the above is correct. Go Games teach young players the basics better then anything else thats the reality.

The idea of having u10's playing 15 a side on big pitches like I used to do in this day and age is crazy. Skills development is the only thing that is important between the ages of 8-13.

Quote from: INDIANA on April 22, 2011, 12:02:55 AM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 21, 2011, 10:51:23 PM
Go Games should only be used in a blitz capacity and even then to a limited extent. I have spoken to people who have coached at rugby in particular and they felt that the similar system they had in fact lowered the overall level of skill. Instead of the weaker players improving, the better players became lazy and regressed as the competitive edge was removed. I feel the GAA has tried to 'ape' other sports yet in many ways they are playing into their hands by downgrading the quality of their players. I watch my sons team and remember what we were like at his age.  We were all capable of kicking with both feet.  We 2 and maybe 3 players who could score points in excess of 35 metres. We had 2 players who could score 45's. My sons team would not have those types of players.  We worked very much on the basis of developing basic skills from we were very young and there were no convoluted training drills with copious amounts of cones.

Gaelic football is a competitive 15 a side game not a babysitter for Olivia so she can go to her pilates with Julia.  I personally think for the good of the future development of the game and also for the preparation of our younger generation for very tough times we need to harden their skins and either get them ready to deal with disappointment or make winners of them.   

There is no evidence to suggest any of the above is correct. Go Games teach young players the basics better then anything else thats the reality.

The idea of having u10's playing 15 a side on big pitches like I used to do in this day and age is crazy. Skills development is the only thing that is important between the ages of 8-13.

As someone who is heavily involved at this level both as a mentor and at county level, I've seen Go Games in Dublin since they were introduced in 2006.

The playing of games up until early teens should be about skills development, not winning.

I've seen teams at U10 level playing with a sweeper, time wasting with players going down with 'cramp', playing bangers to win a meaningless game etc etc - it should be about enjoyment.

Playing 15 on 15 or 13 on 13 on a full size pitch is a nonsense in my view - it leads to a handful of players dominating a game and the weaker player becoming marginalised.

Since Go-Games have been introduced in Dublin I've seen numerous players progress from the quiet corner back who couldn't kick snow off a rope to confident all round players who can execute most of the skills in the game.

I've seen loads of players over the years who were physically bigger than their team mates and who dominated games up to U15/16 and were considered the best in Dublin yet by the time they were in their early 20's couldn't get a game for the club's second team because (as someone else mentioned) they couldn't do anything else beyond run past smaller players or catch a ball above a smaller players head.

The idea that kids want to win at that age group is this is a driver for keeping games as they were is also a nonsense in my view - I believe this is driven by parents/mentors living vicariously through the kids - behaving like lunatics to win at all costs and then by the time the kids get to Minor they've a heap of medals in their back pocket but can't kick off their weak foot.

On a seperate note, but related, does anyone know where you can get some of the U-Can passports for hurling and football? I know you can buy the Fun Do Resource Pack, but I'm not sure how many passports you get?

I like the idea of being able to measure something with regard to the skills development, and I'd be looking to get about 30 of each, plus whatever I need to 'stamp' them.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 22, 2011, 09:48:09 AM
On a seperate note, but related, does anyone know where you can get some of the U-Can passports for hurling and football? I know you can buy the Fun Do Resource Pack, but I'm not sure how many passports you get?

I like the idea of being able to measure something with regard to the skills development, and I'd be looking to get about 30 of each, plus whatever I need to 'stamp' them.

Contact Coaching & Games in the Offaly or Tipp county board AZ - they'll sort you out.

I can't see the correlation between having medals in the pocket and having no left foot! Doesn't make sense.

There's absolutely no doubt that small sided games for youngsters is far far better than 13 or 15 a side. But I think competition is good too.

My lad plays soccer and GAA, and they both use small sided games and ensure players of all abilities get a min amount of playing time each match. The big difference is they keep league tables in the soccer and don't in the GAA, so my lad reckons the soccer matters more and therefore its currently his favourite

Quote from: INDIANA on April 22, 2011, 12:02:55 AM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 21, 2011, 10:51:23 PM
Go Games should only be used in a blitz capacity and even then to a limited extent. I have spoken to people who have coached at rugby in particular and they felt that the similar system they had in fact lowered the overall level of skill. Instead of the weaker players improving, the better players became lazy and regressed as the competitive edge was removed. I feel the GAA has tried to 'ape' other sports yet in many ways they are playing into their hands by downgrading the quality of their players. I watch my sons team and remember what we were like at his age.  We were all capable of kicking with both feet.  We 2 and maybe 3 players who could score points in excess of 35 metres. We had 2 players who could score 45's. My sons team would not have those types of players.  We worked very much on the basis of developing basic skills from we were very young and there were no convoluted training drills with copious amounts of cones.

Gaelic football is a competitive 15 a side game not a babysitter for Olivia so she can go to her pilates with Julia.  I personally think for the good of the future development of the game and also for the preparation of our younger generation for very tough times we need to harden their skins and either get them ready to deal with disappointment or make winners of them.   

There is no evidence to suggest any of the above is correct. Go Games teach young players the basics better then anything else thats the reality.

The idea of having u10's playing 15 a side on big pitches like I used to do in this day and age is crazy. Skills development is the only thing that is important between the ages of 8-13.

100% agree. Sligonian touched on it on the goal of the year thread.  Players in the 8 to 13 year old age group will develop at different times and that has to be allowed to happen.  Players should be encouraged to learn to kick with both feet, block, catch the ball overhead without a coach and parents bawling the head off them because an error has cost them a championship match.  They are more likely to try it when they have the time and space round them so small sided games are ideal.
Fifteen a side games at u8 and u10 are a complete waste of time as it just leaves the game in one great big mess in the middle of the field.
In my experience it is the big clubs who want this as they have the big numbers and want to get as many on the field as possible.

Quote from: Hound on April 22, 2011, 10:04:50 AM
I can't see the correlation between having medals in the pocket and having no left foot! Doesn't make sense.

There's absolutely no doubt that small sided games for youngsters is far far better than 13 or 15 a side. But I think competition is good too.

My lad plays soccer and GAA, and they both use small sided games and ensure players of all abilities get a min amount of playing time each match. The big difference is they keep league tables in the soccer and don't in the GAA, so my lad reckons the soccer matters more and therefore its currently his favourite

It's not a direct correlation between medals & lack of skills  - the point is there is a win at all costs mentality which comes at the detriment of skill development - 'Who cares if only four players out of the 15 are touching the ball - we can go from goalkeeper to midfield to full forward and score a goal'

League/group tables are kept in Dublin at U11 up - last year was the first year that results weren't recorded from U8-U10.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 21, 2011, 11:32:37 PM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 21, 2011, 11:29:04 PM
Thejuice how many of the Meath team circa 1988 were 'small men'? Buggy and Flynn maybe and that was that.

Beggy was light, and Flynn was small in height. Foley wasn't a huge man, but he was wirey. Coyler was small but tough as an auld boot. They had big men though, Lyons x 2, Harnan Hayes, O'Rourke, Staffod, Cassells, O'Malley,

M Lyons 6 foot, P Lyons 5'9
Omalley 5'10
orourke played like he was 5'5

I have no problem with the notion of playing condition games but I still feel that they should be played at 13 or 15 aside.  To stop what happened in the Dalton cup match where your man soloed from his own back line why not simply have a blanket restrictions on solos, max 2!  Play the rest of the game as normal but it means the stronger guys can't push their way through the weaker lads.  The issue about skill development is not something that should be dealt with in the games themselves, it is something that must be developed the 2 nights during the week the young lads need coached.  If a player at 18 can't kick with both feet it is not because they didn't get enough 'game time', it is because the quality of work the underage coaches was doing with them over the years was not up to scratch. 

my own opinion is that I  would agree with the concept of 'go games'.
young kids need to have their attention held all of the time on a football pitch. (goes for hurling too).
I dont have kids but have coached u8 up to minor (and senior).
personally I would believe that we should incorporate BOTH aspects. I'll explain why.
The more involvement in a 'game' a child has, the more they enjoy it. Football (&hurling - but from now on I will just say football) should be FUN. Too many times in the past kids have been thrown out to play sports by their folks and they would rather be inside watching telly and playing xbox.
Even the kids that would 'like' football, are a bit non plussed when they first start attending training.
So as an organisation, we need to get them 'hooked' the same way we all obv are.
More ball time during training (means more footballs) with more drills and skills sessions.
go games where the 'zones' mean more chance of kids getting the ball and interchanging players into different positions means they all get turns in defence and attack and wee slow tubby Johnny wont just be stuck in corner back from he is 8 until he is 18 - though by that stage he will have retired bored with football 4 years previous.

each game day should comprise of 30 mins training/skills/drills before a match. Play a 'go game' after a full fixture and use all the players. This will keep the kids all feeling involved and happy.

In order to develop 'tactics' etc, players need to be able to properly use the ball and to do this they need to be fully skilled up in kicking the ball with each foot and three sides of each foot (ok one foot would do but both feet is easily achieveable). Handpassing and teamwork etc, movement need work too. Tactics are just wasted words if he kids cannot implement these due to poor ability.
Imo you are all correct when you say that kids only getting a couple of touches of a ball isnt enough, plus real 13 or 15 a side games are needed to teach the kids what a real game is like and losing is needed from an early age to they can handle such dissapointments. After a loss, encouragement and compliments on how they played means a lot to kids.
my solution is each training and match day that you divide the time into training/skills, then game then go game.
that covers all bases. Its a wee bit extra time, but its worth it.(as long as its not too long for the very young kids but they wouldnt play much in the way of 13/15 a side matches though).

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 22, 2011, 11:02:27 AM
I have no problem with the notion of playing condition games but I still feel that they should be played at 13 or 15 aside.  To stop what happened in the Dalton cup match where your man soloed from his own back line why not simply have a blanket restrictions on solos, max 2!  Play the rest of the game as normal but it means the stronger guys can't push their way through the weaker lads.  The issue about skill development is not something that should be dealt with in the games themselves, it is something that must be developed the 2 nights during the week the young lads need coached.  If a player at 18 can't kick with both feet it is not because they didn't get enough 'game time', it is because the quality of work the underage coaches was doing with them over the years was not up to scratch.

i'd agree with making some parts of training games 'one solo one hop' - but you need to allow players to develop their soloing skills also.
Big players underage 12-14 generally never grow much afterwards- or so I recall anyhow.
A lot of great players bloom later but if they lose encouragement or the sense of fun- they might never have reached it.
how many greats have we lost as they were too small or weak as kids and they might not have had much encouragement in their club or family.  As numbers 'fall off' as the kids are in their teens, we need more lads on the squad not less. I recall having to 'find' players that had 'retired' a few years before and they enjoyed making a comeback to the game- esp as this time they were not roared at or left on the line and never playing.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 22, 2011, 11:02:27 AM
I have no problem with the notion of playing condition games but I still feel that they should be played at 13 or 15 aside.  To stop what happened in the Dalton cup match where your man soloed from his own back line why not simply have a blanket restrictions on solos, max 2!  Play the rest of the game as normal but it means the stronger guys can't push their way through the weaker lads.  The issue about skill development is not something that should be dealt with in the games themselves, it is something that must be developed the 2 nights during the week the young lads need coached.  If a player at 18 can't kick with both feet it is not because they didn't get enough 'game time', it is because the quality of work the underage coaches was doing with them over the years was not up to scratch.

If you're playing corner back under your model. Your skills will never develop. The studies prove this.

The studies proved that at underage level played 15 a side between the ages of 8-14. The players down the centre of the pitch touched the ball 5 times more then any others on the field.

Tyrone brought this concept in and Kerry and Kilkenny have adopted it. That says a lot in my view. In Dublin we adapted late to this and we've paid a heavy price.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 22, 2011, 11:02:27 AM
I have no problem with the notion of playing condition games but I still feel that they should be played at 13 or 15 aside.  To stop what happened in the Dalton cup match where your man soloed from his own back line why not simply have a blanket restrictions on solos, max 2!  Play the rest of the game as normal but it means the stronger guys can't push their way through the weaker lads.  The issue about skill development is not something that should be dealt with in the games themselves, it is something that must be developed the 2 nights during the week the young lads need coached.  If a player at 18 can't kick with both feet it is not because they didn't get enough 'game time', it is because the quality of work the underage coaches was doing with them over the years was not up to scratch. 

Boys and girls at under 8 and under 10 don't have the appreciation of positions as older players do and will be attracted to the ball which leaves the game a mess.
I'm sure you'll agree that it's one thing a lad being able to kick the ball with both feet during a drill but you want him to do it during a game. He'll do it quicker if he has the time and space to do it.
I was looking through a few clubs' websites for ideas on coaching and the best example I found was the Slaughtneil website.  There's a very good guideline on it as to what they would hope their young players should be able to do at each age group. The emphasis on the skills really starts at under 10 with under 12 players expected to hone their skills under increased pressure.

Lads we'll agree to disagree. My experience of coaching in a few different counties at different levels suggests different to what you all say. Football in particular is a very simple game made difficult by people with agendas and grant money. 5-6 years of Go Games is not in my mind sufficient time to deem it a success.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 22, 2011, 12:03:04 PM
Lads we'll agree to disagree. My experience of coaching in a few different counties at different levels suggests different to what you all say. Football in particular is a very simple game made difficult by people with agendas and grant money. 5-6 years of Go Games is not in my mind sufficient time to deem it a success.

Equally, it is not enough time to call it a failure.

My experience of coaching kids, thus far, suggests that for individual development, small sided games focussing on the skills and getting everyone involved is the way to go. But sure we'll see later on.

The other aspect I like about go games although it doesnt seem to have been implemented is that with smaller teams the potential exists to not have two year spreads at under age level.  I am no longer involved in coaching GAA but when I was one of the biggest issues I faced was that players seemed to be developing in their final year at an age group say u10 then regressing somewhat at u12 as the bigger stronger players once again began to dominate.  I think if we could get to a place where small sided games were being played at each year e.g. U14, U13, U12,U11 etc it would increase the effect of go games.

To give an example from football if I were to play on a pitch which is the same ratio of size to me that a normal playing field is to my Under 11's keeper.  The net would be about 14 feet high and 36 feet wide. and the pitch would be about 180 yards long.  If those ratios were kept there would be very little skill in the games

To once again go back to the sport where I still coach and have been coaching on and off for about 8 or 9 years, all the research and empirical data is there to prove that small sided games and non competitive leagues is the way forward.  By non competitive I dont mean you dont monitor the score as the match is ongoing, simply that you dont record the score or publish it anywhere after the match is finished.  As a result there are no league tables kept.

I think Go Games are a great idea - try to leave no kids out - and its much easier to identify what skills need to be worked on as they get more touches of the ball

At the same time, some sort of competitive blitz or mini league is needed at some stage of the season. (especially at U12 level)

Speaking merely as a parent with no involvement in coaching, I think Go Games is a much better approach.  Smaller sided games allow 2-3 teams from each club ranging in ability, each competing against a team of similar ability. This makes sure all players are involved and contribute in each match.  This also allows players to step up as they develop or step down if they are struggling and need to raise their confidence.  It keeps all players interested and most importantly stops the pressure from coaches to win at all costs regardless of player development. This system does rely on parents being reasonable and not making an issue of their child not being in the A team. This is the biggest problem with kids football - many parents become involved in "coaching" (but only for their sons team) with the sole intention of ensuring their child is always picked for the strongest team whether they're fit for it or not.

I haven't actually ever been involved with Go games, what are the rules and how do lads find they work with the different ages, in terms of the limited movement etc?

Quote from: BarryBreensBandage on April 21, 2011, 10:41:37 PM
I agree AZ - we are organising friendlies on the fortnights between the Go Games blitzes for the U8s.

They are 13 a side, and an absolute nightmare, yet quite entertaining at the same time (if you are not a coach)

But the smaller 9v9 or 6v6 means they all have to play instead of trying out WWE moves on each other when the ball is not near them.

WWE moves are all the rage with Under 8's. Caught a wee lad the other week in the process of giving his mate a tombstone!

In East Down there are U-12 Leagues. Games are four periods of 10 minutes. First two periods everyone gets game time with conditions imposed. The second two periods are played under Go Games rules and scores are kept to produce winners and losers.

http://www.gaa.ie/youth-zone/gaa-go-games/

Quote from: mackers on April 22, 2011, 12:01:42 PM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 22, 2011, 11:02:27 AM
I have no problem with the notion of playing condition games but I still feel that they should be played at 13 or 15 aside.  To stop what happened in the Dalton cup match where your man soloed from his own back line why not simply have a blanket restrictions on solos, max 2!  Play the rest of the game as normal but it means the stronger guys can't push their way through the weaker lads.  The issue about skill development is not something that should be dealt with in the games themselves, it is something that must be developed the 2 nights during the week the young lads need coached.  If a player at 18 can't kick with both feet it is not because they didn't get enough 'game time', it is because the quality of work the underage coaches was doing with them over the years was not up to scratch. 

Boys and girls at under 8 and under 10 don't have the appreciation of positions as older players do and will be attracted to the ball which leaves the game a mess.
I'm sure you'll agree that it's one thing a lad being able to kick the ball with both feet during a drill but you want him to do it during a game. He'll do it quicker if he has the time and space to do it.
I was looking through a few clubs' websites for ideas on coaching and the best example I found was the Slaughtneil website.  There's a very good guideline on it as to what they would hope their young players should be able to do at each age group. The emphasis on the skills really starts at under 10 with under 12 players expected to hone their skills under increased pressure.

It was actually an open email sent to all clubs from Derry's Coaching Development Officer after Derry got a complete tanking last year:

QuoteA Chairde,



A bitterly disappointing day in Celtic Park for both our senior and minor teams.  I think after a day like that it makes everybody reflect on what is going on within our County, my viewpoint is from a coaching and games perspective.



I'm not the kind of person to be pointing fingers or blaming people, hindsight and is a wonderful thing and it's a skill many people in GAA circles seem to possess.  Instead I think we all need to examine exactly what we are doing to develop our underage players.



I think we have very good structures now in place at 8, 10 and 12 years of age with the Go Games and all the work that goes into coaching these young players.  We have very much over the past couple of years fostered the idea that every young players should play and develop their technical skills at their own rate.  I am convinced this will reap the benefits in years to come. I would however like all underage coaches particularly Under 12 coaches to concentrate working on the Weak Side to develop more two sided players.

At Under 8 level it should be about getting the kids out playing our games, enjoying them and developing that sense of club with them

At Under 10 level it should be about skill development, focus most be on developing all the skills with the young players moving into under 12 level.

At Under 12 level it should be about skill refinement and executing the skills under pressure.  There should be much more decision making in your coaching sessions for the players also.



Under 14 level is a busy year for players with Féile competitions beginning early then into their leagues and championships.  At Under 14 level players are really adapting to spatial awareness more so than anything else, players are now having to make decisions that they might not of had to make at under 12 level.  As players should be coming into Under 14 having come through the structures already in place they should have average to good technical skills, although it is always important to keep working on technique particularly on the weak side and under increased pressure.  Other aspects such as team play and tactical awareness will begin to come into your coaching sessions.  Players within their clubs should also be educated in the importance of nutrition and hydration at Under 14 level.



Once a player gets to Under 16 and minor level it's important that clubs continue to work on developing technique, team play, tactical awareness, spatial awareness amongst their players but I think it's becoming increasingly important that we in Derry start opening ourselves to the whole area of strength and conditioning amongst our players.



I know this is something we have started with development squad players and is going to have a major focus with them squads for the next few years.  But development squads (support them or loathe them) can't cater for every single player so we need clubs doing some of the work too.  I am happy to organise a series of coaching workshops around the area and bring in a few knowledgeable people to work with you our coaches within the County to show you things you can integrate into your coaching sessions that will help around this area.  If we buy into it not only will our players be stronger playing our games but I'm also convinced we would have much less injuries down the line.



Our development squad structure is in place and operating to a level I'm happy with for the past two years therefore next year's minor team will be the first group of players to come through the revised programme.  I know some people need convincing on the effectiveness but I'm adamant they are the only way we are going to really improve the top 20% of players, along with an effective school programme also of course, the two go hand in hand.  I would urge everyone to support them fully (this is more or less happening now), Armagh senior team yesterday had 17 players who came through the development squad structure, we in Derry took our eye of the ball.  I think it's important that every single coach doing the excellent work at club level and the coaches working with our development squads and within our schools continue to work hard at developing players so in seven or eight years time we have a continuum of top class players fighting to be part of and stay part of a strong senior panel.



It's very easy for us to feel sorry for ourselves after yesterday's events and to blame people but it's up to every coach from every club working with young players to roll up the sleeves and continue the excellent work that's going on!



Regards,

Chris

DERRY GAA COACHING BLOG:
http://derrycoaching.blogspot.com/

Criostóir Ó Coileáin / Chris Collins
Derry Coaching & Games Development Manager
chris.collins.gm.derry@gaa.ie

Up to u10 Go Games is useful. I think possibly my issue is not necessarily the games but the notion that they are the sole way forward. Also I have attended numerous training courses run by the GAA and the level of coaches being rolled out to go back to clubs is poor.  I have not seen one major player at any of them, what I have invariably seen is predominantly fathers with no real playing experience learning the 'book' way to coach.  They don't understand basics like the stance you take when kicking a ball, the benefits of using different parts of your feet to get different levels of power, the importance of head down and follow through, I could go on. They have a vague understanding.  These are the sort of things that kids need to know when they are young.  Develop good habits early on and they have them for life.  I have coached at senior level for 4 years and in every team I have had to go back to basics as the players don't have simple skills like these.  Maybe it is been solely my experience but this level of coaching coupled with development of skills through the Go Games has seriously tempered my view on it.  I may be on my own here but I know there are strong dissenting voices among coaches in some areas of Ulster and they echo my concerns and these are people employed by the GAA.     

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2011, 09:24:20 AM
Up to u10 Go Games is useful. I think possibly my issue is not necessarily the games but the notion that they are the sole way forward. Also I have attended numerous training courses run by the GAA and the level of coaches being rolled out to go back to clubs is poor.  I have not seen one major player at any of them, what I have invariably seen is predominantly fathers with no real playing experience learning the 'book' way to coach.  They don't understand basics like the stance you take when kicking a ball, the benefits of using different parts of your feet to get different levels of power, the importance of head down and follow through, I could go on. They have a vague understanding.  These are the sort of things that kids need to know when they are young.  Develop good habits early on and they have them for life.  I have coached at senior level for 4 years and in every team I have had to go back to basics as the players don't have simple skills like these.  Maybe it is been solely my experience but this level of coaching coupled with development of skills through the Go Games has seriously tempered my view on it.  I may be on my own here but I know there are strong dissenting voices among coaches in some areas of Ulster and they echo my concerns and these are people employed by the GAA.   

This happens a lot now.

I'm not a fan of the Go Games either, especially for hurling, its pure dung

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2011, 09:24:20 AM
Up to u10 Go Games is useful. I think possibly my issue is not necessarily the games but the notion that they are the sole way forward. Also I have attended numerous training courses run by the GAA and the level of coaches being rolled out to go back to clubs is poor.  I have not seen one major player at any of them, what I have invariably seen is predominantly fathers with no real playing experience learning the 'book' way to coach.  They don't understand basics like the stance you take when kicking a ball, the benefits of using different parts of your feet to get different levels of power, the importance of head down and follow through, I could go on. They have a vague understanding.  These are the sort of things that kids need to know when they are young.  Develop good habits early on and they have them for life.  I have coached at senior level for 4 years and in every team I have had to go back to basics as the players don't have simple skills like these.  Maybe it is been solely my experience but this level of coaching coupled with development of skills through the Go Games has seriously tempered my view on it.  I may be on my own here but I know there are strong dissenting voices among coaches in some areas of Ulster and they echo my concerns and these are people employed by the GAA.   

If you think that doesn go on with 15 a side u10 games you're living in dreamland. Bad coaching from parents who are not coaches is not a by product of go-games. Its always been there. Thats a completely seperate debate and adds nothing to this one.

Indiana when I say black you always say white!  The usefulness of Go Games and the poor coaching are inextricably linked.  Go Games as a concept will only work when you have competent coaches implementing it.  My experience, and I emphasise, my experience is that there are lots of well minded coaches implementing it who simply are not at the required level. It is pointless having the greatest system if the people putting it in place are not good enough.  In Barcelona the best coaches coach the kids, different sport different level, same lesson.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2011, 09:24:20 AM
Up to u10 Go Games is useful. I think possibly my issue is not necessarily the games but the notion that they are the sole way forward. Also I have attended numerous training courses run by the GAA and the level of coaches being rolled out to go back to clubs is poor.  I have not seen one major player at any of them, what I have invariably seen is predominantly fathers with no real playing experience learning the 'book' way to coach.  They don't understand basics like the stance you take when kicking a ball, the benefits of using different parts of your feet to get different levels of power, the importance of head down and follow through, I could go on. They have a vague understanding.  These are the sort of things that kids need to know when they are young.  Develop good habits early on and they have them for life.  I have coached at senior level for 4 years and in every team I have had to go back to basics as the players don't have simple skills like these.  Maybe it is been solely my experience but this level of coaching coupled with development of skills through the Go Games has seriously tempered my view on it.  I may be on my own here but I know there are strong dissenting voices among coaches in some areas of Ulster and they echo my concerns and these are people employed by the GAA.   

I'd rather someone who made the effort to go to coaching courses, learned how to teach skills correctly and implemented the correct things from day one (they are more likely to read up and do some research to improve their own skills). than a big name former player who thinks he/she knows it all, brings bad habits to coaching and cannot understand when things don't go right
some of the best coaches are fellas who made no impact on the game as players.

Have to agree with Indiana, coaching is not the marker for go games. But of course it's relative to the development of all kids and coaching kids to win is different to coaching kids to develop their skills. And while there are many parents thrust into coaching there are many 'qualified coaches' who coach to win and neglect overall development. If a kid is on the pitch for forty minutes but doesn't get a touch of the ball can it be said that he has played a match? Indeed there are plenty of coaches who encourage the by-passing of their weaker player. My concept of go games is inclusion during games and if coaches can grasp that's what it's about they will be of more use to all kids on the practice ground.
And if there's more inclusion all round there will be more development and more enjoyment for more kids who might be more inclined to stick with football and hurling when they get older.

Sorry B.C , Have tried to see your point of view, but im struggling,  well intentioned fathers coaching have nothing to do with Go Games , Go-Games is a format for games and is not a coaching concept. And im sure your not suggesting that only those that have been major players can be relevant coaches. if we where to rely on only major players coaching we would be in some shape.

Fair enough lads I am fairly lonely where I am. I don't really care and I do feel that in the long run it will be shown that what is happening is that there is a general lowering of the skills level.  The irony is that it is members of 2 very consistent successful clubs don't agree with the concept. I think that says something.

Sorry, of course your right, we somtimes forget our place.

Hound you have your opinion I have mine, your post says more about you than me. I respect what you say but that doesn't mean I accept it. You get sarcastic thinking you're being clever. Maybe, maybe not. I simply made the point that myself and Milltown who have both been involved with the 2 most successful clubs in Ulster of recent times don't like Go Games. I have also said time will tell.  You're forelock pulling is a bit silly really.

I take it bc that you think the current individual skill level amongst our underage players and young senior players is lower than that of a decade ago.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2011, 11:57:35 PM
Hound you have your opinion I have mine, your post says more about you than me. I respect what you say but that doesn't mean I accept it. You get sarcastic thinking you're being clever. Maybe, maybe not. I simply made the point that myself and Milltown who have both been involved with the 2 most successful clubs in Ulster of recent times don't like Go Games. I have also said time will tell.  You're forelock pulling is a bit silly really.

With the greatest amount of respect BC whilst there are the two of you and no doubt a few others, there are equally as many if not more who swear by go-games and have researched the alternatives. Going back to my own sport, all the evidence is that small sided games improve technique, skill and tactical nous whilst full size games promotes athleticism, stamina and strength. Whilst both are needed in any successful team, the later can be more easily improved upon at a later stage of development.

O Neill not harking to the good old days or anything like that but I have been involved in coaching teams at senior, minor, u16, u14, u12 and u10 over the last 5 years, in 3 different counties and what is apparent that the basic skills are being overlooked and the value of being the best is being undermined.  The kids do not have the freedom we had when I was playing underage but sometimes I feel that is an easy cop out.  The other sports we compete against are laughing at us. They can take them to tournaments in England, Scotland, Wales, France you name it soccer/rugby is played there.  We offer them a medal for 'competing' in a blitz in a wet Killeavey on a Sarturday afternoon!  We will lose the passion, the desire to win which makes us special.  Kids need to know the pain of lose to understand the joy of success.  Kids are competitive at 10, I know, I have coached them. My own son is 12 and from he was 7-8 he hated to lose. Whether it was Cross, Liverpool or just street football.  I know I am in the minority but frankly I am happy with not following the herd.  I know somewhere where they do not agree with the general concepts being espoused by the GAA and I will very happily keep support that. 

Fair enough and excellent reasoning. However, take Cross out of that. Crossmaglen at all levels are going to challenge for honours and taste success more often than defeat. They're lucky to have that. What about the likes of Corrinshego, Derrynoose, Killean, Lissummon etc?

It's no coincidence that, on the whole (there are always exceptions), there are teams who have always been 'Junior' or 'Intermediate' despite the fact they have just as big a pick. The reason for that is that is that the young players from that team/parish have never been exposed to some form of an organised training scheme. They have been (loosely) managed by the sons and grandsons of men who continue to dominate the club. Go-Games offers the chance to break that cycle at that early age. Even if it means fathers with no experience whatsoever of senior football, it's a start.

I was a poor player. I put a lot of that down to the fact that I had zero (I mean zero) coaching. We never trained as a club underage. We never trained or had organised sessions at primary school. It came down to your father or brothers. Now, I know that may be a club problem but there are many clubs like that out there in the lower reaches. You talk of Milltown's thoughts on this and I remember talking to one of the McGourty brothers about my experiences. He refused to accept my 'excuse' on the basis that you could watch the likes of Kerry and Dublin on the Tv and go out and practice your own skills!

for goodness sake man, Would you listen to yourself, I of course respect you opinion, but please dont try to elevate it above mine by using the sucess of you club, Maybe you dont realise just how patronising it comes across. The only way your success would be relevant was if you had used your preferred system of development and all other teans had used another{ie non competitive fully inclusive } and Cross had come out on top, This was not the case . you may well prove to be correct  in the future, but so might i and the others who feel that winning at that age isnt everything, And i will as you to bear one thing in mind there are more adults seem to have a problem with go games than Children, granted that those that had experienced competitive games  an had them taken away from them as happen in  Armagh 2 years ago may have a gripe but they will get over it, Those that havent will have no problem with them

But does it O Neill? Systems are systems, mindsets can't be overcome by systems. The reason many clubs are stuck at a level is because they believe that is their level. I don't give a fiddlers f**k about a system that encourages kids to be mediocre.  That is what I feel Go Games is, an excuse for mediocrity.  If you believe that the fat kid from the farm who only likes tractors is good enough to be part of it then good enough.  I have been a winner all my life and that is not something that I was necessarily born with. I became like that because of what I was taught.  If you can make lads believe they are better than they actually are then you can take them to the next level and it doesn't matter if they are 10 years of age or playing for an AI.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 24, 2011, 12:57:49 AM
If you can make lads believe they are better than they actually are then you can take them to the next level and it doesn't matter if they are 10 years of age or playing for an AI.

Is that not the essence of these Games, including that fat kid?

My God ,"The Fat Kid" . "The Pain Of losing" .  Wise up will ya,  We are taking about children here "children" who want to have fun "fun" ya  know somthing i wont even bother trying to put a point across, your last post spoke volumes.

I can't work quotes when I am drunk and on a Blackberry but O'Neill the GAA is a sporting organisation not the f**king social services! I am fed up with the 'requirement' to be inclusive.  There is a B team for the 'fat' kid.  Time to stop being PC about it all and start being a bit more open about it. While we all want to be 'open' about it we all want our team to be winners. I don't care how many Go Games a coach organises he loves the win as much as the kids. It feeds his ego as much as the kids no matter how much he tries to be 'mature' about it. Human nature is to be competitive otherwise we wouldn't be here. I feel it is time to accept and realise that and build our games around it!

Ah! the logic of the drunk. that explains alot  There should be a new Campaign   "Dont drink and post,  it wrecks credibilty"

I still think you're looking at it from your fortunate personal experience and equating that to the way it should be.

Hound of Ulster I don't know how much you've coached or played but I believe we have molly coddled our kids at under age for too long.  I am a father of 3 so I know what it is to look after the needs of kids.  There is a need, in my view, to look at things differently. That is my view, I don't care who agrees with it. It only seems patronising to people who have an openess to be patronised.

Hound I am saying because I am drinking I can't work out the quote function. I still will stand ovet what I post no matter what I say. I don't agree with the Go Games, whether I stand alone or have 100 posters behind me does not change my opinions.  I will not crawl and hide behind a pseudonym, many on the board know me and I will happily post who I am as I believe in what I say. I understand where you're coming from, I just don't agree with it.

Ive plenty of experience of all including being a father , but thankfully i accept that i dont have all the answers as a coach or a parent , But then again i havent been a winner "All" my life . Sorry ive got to go to bed, Ive got to get up and try and help a bunch of fat kids become better footballers,   ;)

On the idea of the fat kid, what if he turns out to be the player with all the ball skills and technique but is lost to the game because at 9 years old he didn't have the fitness to play is it not better to have a system thai incorporates and allows for his physical development.

To give an example I coach an under 11's team and there is a fat kid on that team who has always been a competent defender at training not our best defender but always solid. For the first 6 months he really struggled in full sized matches but we persevered with him and kept ensuring he had as much game time as all the other kids who were performing much better. We also continued to focus on basic skills in SSG's in training. This drew an awful lot of criticism from many of the parents as it meant we lost quite a few games. About three months ago we found out the fat kid suffers from aspergers and can't comprehend offside we made adjustments for that in how we coached him. In the last 12 games he's played not a single goal has come down his side and he is second in the team in assists, we are coincidentally currently on a 12 match unbeaten run. I'm not taking any credit for this improvement but his dad approached us a few weeks to tell us he now thinks the so called fat kid is a better player now than his brother was at the same age. It was only at that point that his dad informed us the older brother plays for Glenavons first team. Oh and the dad is a full time football coach within the IFA and a professional football scout.  If we had followed the win at all costs play your best team philosophy I'm 100% sure 'the fat kid' wouldn't have developed as much and we wouldn't play as good football as a team.

I'm not saying your philosophy is wrong but from my own experience and research I think go-games are the way forward. Improving the standard of everyone will have the knock on effect of improving the standard of the best players but it will take time and IMO ultimately benefit the game

O Neill maybe I am looking at it from a fortunate position but how did I get to that position? My team mates and I thought differently. We were no more special in terms of ability than Ayrfield, East Kerry and whatever area stephenite is from. The difference is from 10 years of age we believed we were the best.  1 man is responsible for that. Maybe he was lucky that we came along, or more likely we we're lucky to have him as a coach. That sense now permeates the club. I am happy that the rest of Ireland accepts Go Games as the way forward, from a selfish point of view. We'll do things our way if that is ok?

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 24, 2011, 02:05:34 AM
O Neill maybe I am looking at it from a fortunate position but how did I get to that position? My team mates and I thought differently. We were no more special in terms of ability than Ayrfield, East Kerry and whatever area stephenite is from. The difference is from 10 years of age we believed we were the best.  1 man is responsible for that. Maybe he was lucky that we came along, or more likely we we're lucky to have him as a coach. That sense now permeates the club. I am happy that the rest of Ireland accepts Go Games as the way forward, from a selfish point of view. We'll do things our way if that is ok?

We showed up that weekend, a group of 17 lads who at 11 and 12 years of age from a small area (we were the full quota of our age group, not one from the area was left behind) who believed that we were the best. We weren't, but that didn't matter, mind you, we didn't have a 6ft 2" pretending to be 12 either ;)

From my perspective, playing football at any sort of level is only partly down to skill. The other part is understanding and enjoying the huge physical application required (both a commitment to training, and an appetite for tough tackling).

While I would think that Go Games (or something like it) most certainly has a place in the earliest stages of a child's development, it would though be detrimental to player development (and therefore to the clubs) to maintain it when they're older.

I've watched dozens upon dozens of youngsters drop away from the system in Ballyholland, not because they didn't have skill or weren't wanted, but because they just didn't have the heart for the game - and as soon as mum and dad stopped forcing them to play, they stopped.

Go Games can only add to this problem, because it will be more difficult for coaches to identify and work with those players who do have the heart, for it won't be put to the test until too late.

I'd suggest it's a fine concept for u6 and u8, to concentrate on skills and mass involvement. By u10 though, it should be side by side with real football, and phased out entirely by u12.

We have a lad in the club who is pushing Go Games and we have lads that aren't for it, typically there is the view of O'Neill and the view of BC1.

Now the lad pushing the Go Games is a Games development officer for a club in Armagh and the other lad is someone who was brought up with a winning team form under 10 were the training was 3 nights a week, games at the weekend trips away down south and tournaments held at the club. These players were taken to Croke Park to watch all the big games also. Some of these lads went on to win everything in hurling and football at Juvenile then an All Ireland club.

The Games development officer was not in as successful team so his views and experiences have maybe swayed his opinion on this.

I believe if a club is really serious about development of all the players, fat, skinny and cross eyed, they they should implement a strategy which will see them become competitive in the next 15 years, put all your resources best coaches and money into the under 6's, 8's and watch your return when they become senior, Cross have done it, we done it and there are other clubs doing it Cargin, Creggan.

I wish we had have had this vision when i was a young pup, we certainly had the players but with one manager who looked after under 12, 14 it was a massive commitment for him to produce results.

Not having time to read through all posts, I'll mention a conversation I had with my older brother last night. He's taken up coaching his sons soccer team, they needed someone and despite no competitive or even kick about soccer playing experience at any stage in his life he stepped in (it's U-8)

I asked why the lad wasn't down at the local GAA club (really a small hurling only club in East Cork) and he says he gave it up, when I questioned him on this he told me that at the U-8 level the kids were separated into A & B teams with the B team having no coach, the A team were given tracksuits and all the trimmings including Lucozade sport at training whilst the B team were left to attempt to learn to puck about themselves and a few bottles of water left on the side of the pitch for them.

I was shocked that there was still even small GAA clubs that would treat 8 year olds young lads like this, my nephew would probably never have made it as a star of the GAA, but that was never the point of the association, was it?

Quote from: stephenite on April 24, 2011, 10:26:06 AM
Not having time to read through all posts, I'll mention a conversation I had with my older brother last night. He's taken up coaching his sons soccer team, they needed someone and despite no competitive or even kick about soccer playing experience at any stage in his life he stepped in (it's U-8)

I asked why the lad wasn't down at the local GAA club (really a small hurling only club in East Cork) and he says he gave it up, when I questioned him on this he told me that at the U-8 level the kids were separated into A & B teams with the B team having no coach, the A team were given tracksuits and all the trimmings including Lucozade sport at training whilst the B team were left to attempt to learn to puck about themselves and a few bottles of water left on the side of the pitch for them.

I was shocked that there was still even small GAA clubs that would treat 8 year olds young lads like this, my nephew would probably never have made it as a star of the GAA, but that was never the point of the association, was it?

ah sure, players are like mushrooms down in Cork...

seriously though, I wouldn't send my kid to any club who is still doing that sort of thing in 2011

Stephenite, it should be understood that the problem you brought up is not a GAA problem, but a club problem. It's as likely to happen in soccer, golf, rowing, 10 pin bowls, as it is in GAA. It's just the way some sporting clubs behave.

Quote from: thewobbler on April 24, 2011, 10:48:15 AM
Stephenite, it should be understood that the problem you brought up is not a GAA problem, but a club problem. It's as likely to happen in soccer, golf, rowing, 10 pin bowls, as it is in GAA. It's just the way some sporting clubs behave.

Fair point

Im involved with my club's Under 6's, Under 8's and Under 10's. I support the Go Games ethos to an extent but I still like to mix it with a bit of old school. Im from a club which would probably term itself Intermediate/Junior. They're wouldnt be a massive GAA ethos in the parish. We are trying to instill identity and belonging in our young folk, something which the club has struggled with for years.

Following the code of Go Games conduct to the very word isn't going to help this. I want our Under 8's coming off the field after a bruising encounter with a neighbouring club one point victors rather than mincing off after a stop start, positional rotation, blow your whistle every second, borefest were the end result was the favoured 'draw'.

I keep scores for all challenge/blitz games from U6 to U10. I will make a point of telling the young boys/girls if they lost or won. I find that some of our 6 year olds get hacked off if they lose and this is most definitely a good thing in my eyes. I can't abide team mentors that patronise their kids by telling them after every game that the match was a draw. Children arent stupid.

Id be a big advocate of small sided games with similar ability children. Ive witnessed the benefits of imposing more challenging conditions on the more able children and being a bit more flexible with the weaker ones. At training differentiating between skill levels and putting children in to groups according to their talent is quite obviously the best thing to do. At matches we dont use the A/B/C team scenario. Each team is named after a townland in the parish. All three teams leave the changing rooms together, they warm up alongside each other, they drink from the same water bottles, they wear the same strips etc.

At training I still tend to work on the basics every week. Straight line drills which implement every skill. Now the new age coach probably frowns upon this but I think it works. I still throw in the odd bib tag game and the likes. Ive even stretched recently to WWE style warm ups which can be coined as 'strength' training. I feel that fun stuff like this keeps the child with the 'less passion' for the game involved and helps them become more agreeable to the ball work.

At Under 6 I think 5/6-a-side games are best, at Under 8 7/8-a-side suits best and at U-10 anything from 11/13-a-side works well. The downside of Go Games is that there are some coaches who are rigid with the application of it's tenets. Thats were the problem lies.

This thread got me motivated to register...

In Donegal we've been playing Go Games at U10 and U8 (such as the U8 competition is) for four or five years, and introduced it at U12 last year.

I remain to be convinced of the Go Game format at U12. It worked well at U10, but at U12 our best players see through it and they're not interested in playing in games where scores aren't kept and there are no 'winners'. They're as competitive as hell and want to win. And like some of the others on this thread, I think that's no bad thing.

Last year, our 2 best U12 players didn't play in their Go Game blitzes, and went off to training sessions for another sport instead. Interestingly, both were ever-present in our 15-a-side competitive U13 competitions.

The theory of Go Games seems, to me at least, to be well intentioned in that its objective of keeping everyone, regardless of ability, involved is a good one. But I'm worried that by tailoring our games to accommodate weaker players we're actually forgetting about the strong ones.

Prior to the U12 Go Games, we fielded A & B teams (which we called blue and gold, so as not to stigmatise the Bs) in local 15-a-side competitions. The wains on the B team didn't care about A or B - as long as they were playing at an appropriate level they were happy. And every child got a game every night - we didn't stuff the B team with a couple of strengtheners from the As.

We actually won both divisional A & B competitions in 2009, which was a fair achievement for a rural club playing in a competition with three big enough town teams. Both groups got a massive buzz out of that, and five of the 2009 Bs played with our U14 As last week.

In 2009 we had a U12 squad of 36; two years into the Go Games we're just about getting 20, with some of the best instead going to a soccer 'academy' that has arranged its U12 training for the same night as our local Gaelic football Go Games.

The Go Games may not be the only factor in the drop off, but I know it has in a couple of cases.

IF there must be U12 Go Games, then play a 15-a-side championship at the end of the season. A, B and C competitions if you have the numbers. But let the 12 year-olds get a true test of competition.

Lads, one thing to be mindful of is that the Go Games are only one aspect of the developmental side of things, and I'm sort of in favour of what seems to be the consensus, which is that Go Games have a place, but are probably better suited to the youngest age groups - 6-8-9 kind of thing.

A common refrain is that they do not teach the skills, and this is the truth. However the Go Games in and of themselves are not necessarily about learning the skills, they are about reinforcing and demonstrating the skills.

A coach still has to teach the skills, and there are other components of the Fun Do approach (UCan Awards are a great example) that focus on the skills the kids need to learn, and the coaches need to teach. It's a good point well made that this is not some sort of creche. We are there to make the sessions fun, but they also need to be productive, and we shouldn't lose sight of that.

A year where the kids have a great time, and learn nothing, is a year wasted.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 24, 2011, 02:05:34 AM
O Neill maybe I am looking at it from a fortunate position but how did I get to that position? My team mates and I thought differently. We were no more special in terms of ability than Ayrfield, East Kerry and whatever area stephenite is from. The difference is from 10 years of age we believed we were the best.  1 man is responsible for that. Maybe he was lucky that we came along, or more likely we we're lucky to have him as a coach. That sense now permeates the club. I am happy that the rest of Ireland accepts Go Games as the way forward, from a selfish point of view. We'll do things our way if that is ok?

Not sure what you mean by this bc, Cross are partaking in Go Games at u8 and u10 and have done for the last two years. This year is the first year that u12 is played with Go Games rules in Armagh, I haven't heard of them opting out, I don't see that they have much choice.

looks like everyone is playing it as part of congress motion:


What are GAA Go Games?
GAA Go Games are small-sided games with modified rules in both Hurling (Go Hurling) and Gaelic Football (Go Gaelic). They form a central element of GAA policy on games for children up to and including the Under-12 age grade.

Congress 2010 saw the passing of a motion relating to this policy. Some of the key points relating to the implementation of this policy are outlined below.

A motion regarding the organisation of children's games was passed at Congress. Could you explain what this motion is and what it means for the organisation of games?

The motion is as follows:

'Under-12 and Younger Age Groups
Games in Under 12 and Younger Age Groups shall be organized on the "Go Games" model with teams being a maximum of 11-a-side and structured to ensure that all participants get to play in the full game.

At Under-12 level, Competitions may also be organized on a mini-league format on the basis that the teams are a maximum of 11-a-side and that provision is made for all members of the team panel to participate in the game.'

Essentially the motion means games for all age groups up to and including under-11 must be organised exclusively on the Go Games model.

The Go Games Model is defined by the following criteria:

    * There is full participation for all players
    * Games are organised in a non competitive way i.e. results are not recorded
    * Games are small-sided
    * Playing rules are modified to suit the developmental stages of the children
    * Playing area is modified
    * Playing equipment is modified

NB: Modifications and playing rules are at the discretion of each county.

At Under-12 level Mini-League Competitions are organised to provide and support a gradual exposure to the challenges of competitively organised games programmes.

These mini-league competitions can be introduced in parallel to Go Games. The mini-league system is a competitive games programme built on the philosophy of Go Games, that is, a) it is small-sided, and b) provision must be made for all players to get meaningful playing time.

When will this policy be implemented?

Many counties have already adopted this approach after it was endorsed by Central Council in 2009. The policy will become rule in 2011 whereby all Under 12 games must follow this format.

What is the philosophy of Go Games?

The underlying philosophy where Go Games are concerned is one of full participation and fair play where each player gets to play the entire game (no subs where practical) and plays in a number of different playing positions during the course of each game. The games are small sided and the emphasis is on participation rather than the result. Go Games are not only about Fair Play in the sense that all participants should get the opportunity to participate fully in the games. They also revolve around the core values enshrined in the GAA Respect Initiative.

What are the advantages of Go Games?

There are a numerous advantages to this approach but the most obvious are:

    * Games are small-sided and all participants get to play for the entire game
    * Games are played in a fun environment with emphasis on improving skills
    * Children are not subject to the win at all costs approach

Is there any research to support this approach?

Research conducted at DCU, under the guidance of Prof Niall Moyna and Dublin football coach Mickey Whelan was crucial in the development of the Go Games. By tracking the same 7 players in a 15 a-side and 7-a-side game (each of 30 minute duration) the data indicated the following benefits of the small sided game;

    * Players worked harder therefore increasing fitness levels
    * Players had more contact with the ball leading to increased opportunities to score, make decisions, develop skills
    * The children also reported a greater level of enjoyment and had higher levels of perceived competence (self esteem)

Go Games are also in line with the Primary School PE curriculum and have recently been endorsed by Cumann na mBunscol at their national AGM. The approach is further endorsed by outgoing INTO president, Máire ní Chuinneagáin; "I fully indorse the sport for all approach adopted by the GAA and Cumann na mBunscol. The maximum participation of all children in sporting activities is at the heart of the primary school curriculum. Participation must never be sacrificed for competition, the success of the few must not be promoted over the opportunity for all children to take part, enjoy and develop to the best of their ability."

How will existing competitions at Under 12 be affected by this rule ?

Many counties have already adopted a successful child centred approach but some counties may need to re-format competitions slightly. Mini leagues will be organised which act as an introduction to competition. These leagues would be small sided and would ensure that there is provision for participation for all players. Where possible clubs would field multiple teams to facilitate all players playing to avoid children sitting on sidelines. It is important for clubs to be aware that all competitions or tournaments must be sanctioned by county board for insurance purposes.

What is the aim of this policy?

The ultimate aim is to ensure a quality introduction to Gaelic games for all children and to build a mass of players to progress and continue to play with their club. The provision of formal competition for children is a relatively recent development. However, with the passage of time, these competitions have in some cases become more serious and naturally when this occurs a culture of 'keep the best and neglect the rest' develops. While those in charge may be well intentioned, there is no justification for placing adult-type demands on young children e.g. where winning is the over-riding concern, where they play in 15-a-side games, on over sized pitches, and have minimal involvement in the game.

This has led to a situation where many players who - for a variety of reasons – mature at a slower rate finish up dropping out of Gaelic games due to a lack of confidence in their own ability, a lack of playing time, a lack of fun and the absence of any real sense of achievement.

In recent years, there has been a greater appreciation and increased recognition of the need to ensure that a child-centred approach is adopted where the promotion and development of Gaelic games is concerned. In other words, it should be a case of children first, winning second. This in no way rules out competition, but contextualises it, firstly through Go Games as the intrinsic motivation inherent to sport and secondly through mini-league competitions within a framework which ensures that all children get a fair opportunity to participate and provides greater opportunity for skill development and enjoyment.

http://www.gaa.ie/youth-zone/gaa-go-games/

Its an interesting debate on so many levels and one I've only got to know in the last year or so when the young lad of 5 took off to play with the Under 6's. From a hurling POV, I've went to his training on numerous occasions and would know the coaches well and have given advice when asked and IMO at that age as long as they hold the hurl right and strike on the ground off both sides and enjoy it then let them at it.
My lad has played (I'll use that term loosely) in two go game blitzes, and as I wasn't able to make it my wife took him, he never struck leather either time as the ball was in a sheep like ruck, one lad was dancing, another two were playing soldiers with their hurls and all that. You know what, he loved it and can't wait to go to training when its on.

Sometimes we adults analyse things from an adults perspective and not from the childs and I think that's where we're going wrong.  Paudie Butler talks extensively about this on some of the GAA training material I've seen recently and I'm not going to argue with a man who through teaching in a parish in Tipp, brought a club from nowhere to two or three Tipp county finals and several intercounty hurlers for the first time ever.

Children are naturally competitive anyway and the younger ones are a bit like goldfish, they score a goal and they're the greatest thing in the world. It doesn't matter that the other team maybe scored 4 more, they'll remember the one they scored.
As they get to the 10 to 12 age group however they should be exposed to a bit of competiton as some others have said you need to learn about losing as much as winning and how to embrace that to turn things around, mentally as much as anything else. Kids are ok at this age if the parents aren't around putting undue pressure on them, even the 'pound a goal' shite I hear off.
You begin to suffer from the big children dominating at this age, which isn't good so rules like no solo running (hurling) should be maintained and TBH, I've seen it more times than enough that the big lads poor technique at underage where they can get away with it comes back to haunt them at adult level and strangely get passed by youngsters who were smaller at underage but were neat and tidier hurlers and when they do fill out a bit as they maybe grow later on, that good technique stands by them.

And this is where good coaching comes in. I did the foundation level back in the early days of all this stuff from Croke park and the hurling coaches were Paudie O'Neill (originally a Tipp native, but Dublin based now) and a big lad from Clare and when coaching the basics like striking the ball, lifting, blocking etc, touched on the details which separate good hurlers from average ones. This course in itself is geared towards novices i.e. the mums and dads with little playing backgrounds themselves coaching youngsters the basics. I've witnessed this course recently run within the club and the coach taking it did a lot of the very same drills, but left out the details I was expecting. The lifts were too high, i.e. the ball was being scouped up to about waist high, which was a no no with O'Neill who talked about 6 inches no more.

To someone who never really played the game, they wouldn't see the difference as in a drill situation the ball should still be in the hand etc, etc, but during a game those split seconds mean the ball would take longer to lift and get in the hand as well as being easier to knock away. Once youngsters learn bad habits its bloody hard to shake it out of them, especially the poor grip which is near on impossible to correct in pig headed teenagers as I'm finding out for myself now but sure I'll keep ranting and raving at them and hope some sticks in their shell likes.

What's wrong with their grip johnney? Is the dominant hand coming down the hurl, or something else? There's a couple of things you can to break that habit, but it's up to the player to work on it.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 26, 2011, 03:36:29 PM
What's wrong with their grip johnney? Is the dominant hand coming down the hurl, or something else? There's a couple of things you can to break that habit, but it's up to the player to work on it.

Yeah dominant hurl down the hurley and the weaker hand then ends up on the top when striking. One lad has no left side at all and it's really preventing him from going any further, but worst of all he fails to see it. You can pish harder when he attempts to pull a ball on the ground on his left.

At the risk of sounding prehistoric, have you tried taping his dominant hand to the top of the hurl? If you do that for every training session for about 3 weeks, it'll help a lot.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 26, 2011, 03:54:02 PM
At the risk of sounding prehistoric, have you tried taping his dominant hand to the top of the hurl? If you do that for every training session for about 3 weeks, it'll help a lot.

I'd love to do that but I'd need to tape his gob shut as well.

I've heard of gluing a marigold onto the hurley as well, might try that, but one lad in particular can't see the error of his ways even if you were giving him several examples of the issues its causing during games and stuff. A while with a number 17 on his back may bring a bit of sense to him. 

Yeah, the glove on the top of the hurl is the same thing.

Sorry if this isn't actually about the Go Games itself, but my club have me hounded for some time to be a referee. Now they are asking me to do Go Games reffing. Are mammys and daddys bad at this level at Go Games towards refs?

Not in my experience. That's one of the drivers behind the Go Games concept. Less pressure on kids, but also less pressure from Parents. Beware you'll have to learn the Go Games rules :)

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 26, 2011, 04:48:30 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 26, 2011, 04:20:58 PM
Not in my experience. That's one of the drivers behind the Go Games concept. Less pressure on kids, but also less pressure from Parents. Beware you'll have to learn the Go Games rules :)

Some parents can still be brutal though. As for Go Games rules, they vary from county to county. For example in Tyrone for football there are no goals (points only), no skills points, no zoning of players and the only personal playing restriction is a two-touch rule in a solo run.

If parents are brutal at Go Games, they need road. And that's what I meant about the Go Games rules, it might be a minefield for the aspiring ref, and they'll change depending on ages as well.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 26, 2011, 04:50:54 PM

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 26, 2011, 04:48:30 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 26, 2011, 04:20:58 PM
Not in my experience. That's one of the drivers behind the Go Games concept. Less pressure on kids, but also less pressure from Parents. Beware you'll have to learn the Go Games rules :)

Some parents can still be brutal though. As for Go Games rules, they vary from county to county. For example in Tyrone for football there are no goals (points only), no skills points, no zoning of players and the only personal playing restriction is a two-touch rule in a solo run.

If parents are brutal at Go Games, they need road. And that's what I meant about the Go Games rules, it might be a minefield for the aspiring ref, and they'll change depending on ages as well.

Off topic i know but thats the one huge difference i have noticed having got my Kids involved in Rugby as well as the gaa they just don't tolerate any bullshit from parents on the sideline if any one decides to start mouthing they are quickly told it won't be tolerated.

I have noticed that since my son moved up to U10s there doesn't seem to be that many Go Games events. Instead they seem to be entering competitive tournaments far and wide. Is it the case that there are less clubs running Go Games events for this age group? Or is it, as I suspect, a case of coaches seeking out all opportunities to bring silverware to the club?  I ask because if the club are ignoring these Go Games events, where all players should get a game, in favour of competitive tornaments where the same players play constantly and many kids are left at home then I might need to address this somehow as already I am almost forcing him to keep going to these things as his interest has plummetted.

I know its been 11 years since this thread was started but I'm wondering have peoples opinions changed since then.

I had no involvement in go-games at that stage but now that I've a couple of children involved...

I like the idea behind go-games - it encourages participation from all children regardless of ability and working with the children it is easy to see the improvement that they've all made over the course of the year.  That obliviously isn't just because of the go-games - coaches at trainings, parents at home and the children themselves have to practice the skills but the go-games give the children the opportunity to put the skills into practice in a semi-competitive scenario; the go-games give more children more opportunities to get on the ball in game situations.

Also, its strange to see Larry Duff above (11 years ago!) highlight competitive tournaments creeping in... I thought this was a more recent phenomenon with only a few tournaments at the end of the year but now every club seems to want to host their own tournament.  I can see some merit in a few tournaments but it's how they are managed.  Clubs with larger numbers have to pick a panel (meaning boys/girls are excluded).  I've also noticed when tournaments start that some children don't want to participate in go-games any more or just generally mess about as there are no winners!
I also find that tournaments can bring the worst out in everyone; coaches (will to win means some children won't get game time), parents (abuse of players/coaches/referees) and children themselves (aggressiveness boils over - lashing out and foulmouthed to officials)

Anyway - be interested to hear other peoples thoughts.

Just finished up an u11.5 season where we'd 2 x teams, one a mostly p7 team playing in d1, one a mostly p6 team playing in d4. I jumped between the teams week on week and got a good flavour of both.

I have to say it's a credit to the South Down board (Brendan Rice the coordinator) that both our teams got 16-18 games on Sunday mornings with official referees, and just about every match played in the right spirit.

There are some serious plus points to Go Games. The first one being that I can count on one hand the number of players blown up for overcarrying all year; the players just seem to get it. The direct result of this is a clear need and resultant emphasis on other skills: quick hand passing and support play, longer, earlier passing, and timed tackling. Half backs can read space in the knowledge that opponents will have to kick. Full backs learn that they can stand a man up and force him into a mistake, even if he's twice their size. Midfielders (still the strongest athletes have to use their heads as well as their legs). From a coach's perspective, the non-competitive angle does allow you to t**ker with positions and give you more room to give weaker players a lengthier run out.

But there's clear downsides too. The weakest players just don't figure in the way anyone would hope they could. They tend to be too far off the pace in terms of athleticism, or interest levels, or both. Truth is, football is no more or less likely to be their medium term pursuit, than it was for 10 year olds of a similar ilk from 30 years ago. This sounds cruel, but when the weakest players manage to pair off against each other, it's a something of a relief for both sets of coaches. The lower mid-level players get many more touches (i assume) than in the "olden days" but they're usually little more than ball walls for the stronger players to get a rebound from. I guess the stronger mid-level players benefit the most: the rules mean the stronger players want and need them to get better and encourage them along.

But the biggest concern from my limited experience is just how more tuned in stronger players get when they go to a tournament. It could be 4 teams or 40 teams in the field, it doesn't matter. If there's a cup and medals to play for, the interest levels and efforts of the stronger players go through the roof. Which personally I love to see happening. It just makes me wonder if the development leagues are actually suitable for the development of stronger players. Going through the motions in a series of "fun league" fixtures probably isn't helping them.

Long way of saying I don't know if it's good or bad, I suppose.

I think start competitive at under 10 and burn off the driftwood earlier. If they are not good enough at that age they never will be.

I jest!

I have a son who is right in the middle as to ability, not outstanding and not shite. Until this year, his last competitive game was in 2019.

2020 he was 11 years old in a under 12 team. Panel of about 27.
2021 he was 12 years old in a under 13 team. Panel of about 27.

Being the young lad and of average ability, his sub number was about 22.
There were up to 9 lads involved training these teams, most of the trainers would be parents of the older lads.

This year was his good year. He was 13 years old in a under 13 team. But the two years of non competitive football have left him like a rabbit in the headlights. He did not know what to do.

We went to about half way in this season and pulled the plug. It was a huge relief leaving the whatsapp group. It's amazing how you can end up despising part of something you love.

He is a very decent soccer player and this has been his saviour. Full competitive games over the same period and oozing in confidence.

The younger lad of 10 is now doing go-games. He is of a decent standard. But I'm weary of the road ahead.

https://www.irishtimes.com/health/your-fitness/2022/10/11/we-nearly-lost-our-boy-due-to-men-who-needed-the-under-12-win-to-make-them-feel-they-were-great/ interesting article about this topic

Quote from: Stall the Bailer on October 11, 2022, 12:54:46 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/health/your-fitness/2022/10/11/we-nearly-lost-our-boy-due-to-men-who-needed-the-under-12-win-to-make-them-feel-they-were-great/ interesting article about this topic

An article I can relate to for football but thankfully not hurling for my son this  year for go games ,/ blitzes

Quote from: thewobbler on October 10, 2022, 08:29:55 PM
Just finished up an u11.5 season where we'd 2 x teams, one a mostly p7 team playing in d1, one a mostly p6 team playing in d4. I jumped between the teams week on week and got a good flavour of both.

I have to say it's a credit to the South Down board (Brendan Rice the coordinator) that both our teams got 16-18 games on Sunday mornings with official referees,and just about every match played in the right spirit.

There are some serious plus points to Go Games. The first one being that I can count on one hand the number of players blown up for overcarrying all year; the players just seem to get it. The direct result of this is a clear need and resultant emphasis on other skills: quick hand passing and support play, longer, earlier passing, and timed tackling. Half backs can read space in the knowledge that opponents will have to kick. Full backs learn that they can stand a man up and force him into a mistake, even if he's twice their size. Midfielders (still the strongest athletes have to use their heads as well as their legs). From a coach's perspective, the non-competitive angle does allow you to t**ker with positions and give you more room to give weaker players a lengthier run out.

But there's clear downsides too. The weakest players just don't figure in the way anyone would hope they could. They tend to be too far off the pace in terms of athleticism, or interest levels, or both. Truth is, football is no more or less likely to be their medium term pursuit, than it was for 10 year olds of a similar ilk from 30 years ago. This sounds cruel, but when the weakest players manage to pair off against each other, it's a something of a relief for both sets of coaches. The lower mid-level players get many more touches (i assume) than in the "olden days" but they're usually little more than ball walls for the stronger players to get a rebound from. I guess the stronger mid-level players benefit the most: the rules mean the stronger players want and need them to get better and encourage them along.

But the biggest concern from my limited experience is just how more tuned in stronger players get when they go to a tournament. It could be 4 teams or 40 teams in the field, it doesn't matter. If there's a cup and medals to play for, the interest levels and efforts of the stronger players go through the roof. Which personally I love to see happening. It just makes me wonder if the development leagues are actually suitable for the development of stronger players. Going through the motions in a series of "fun league" fixtures probably isn't helping them.

Long way of saying I don't know if it's good or bad, I suppose.

That is a great bit of work by the Down Board. In Tyrone there were 9 rounds of Go games from April to September. It was up to the participating clubs to arrange their own referees.

Quote from: LeoMc on October 11, 2022, 01:31:27 PM

Quote from: thewobbler on October 10, 2022, 08:29:55 PM
Just finished up an u11.5 season where we'd 2 x teams, one a mostly p7 team playing in d1, one a mostly p6 team playing in d4. I jumped between the teams week on week and got a good flavour of both.

I have to say it's a credit to the South Down board (Brendan Rice the coordinator) that both our teams got 16-18 games on Sunday mornings with official referees,and just about every match played in the right spirit.

There are some serious plus points to Go Games. The first one being that I can count on one hand the number of players blown up for overcarrying all year; the players just seem to get it. The direct result of this is a clear need and resultant emphasis on other skills: quick hand passing and support play, longer, earlier passing, and timed tackling. Half backs can read space in the knowledge that opponents will have to kick. Full backs learn that they can stand a man up and force him into a mistake, even if he's twice their size. Midfielders (still the strongest athletes have to use their heads as well as their legs). From a coach's perspective, the non-competitive angle does allow you to t**ker with positions and give you more room to give weaker players a lengthier run out.

But there's clear downsides too. The weakest players just don't figure in the way anyone would hope they could. They tend to be too far off the pace in terms of athleticism, or interest levels, or both. Truth is, football is no more or less likely to be their medium term pursuit, than it was for 10 year olds of a similar ilk from 30 years ago. This sounds cruel, but when the weakest players manage to pair off against each other, it's a something of a relief for both sets of coaches. The lower mid-level players get many more touches (i assume) than in the "olden days" but they're usually little more than ball walls for the stronger players to get a rebound from. I guess the stronger mid-level players benefit the most: the rules mean the stronger players want and need them to get better and encourage them along.

But the biggest concern from my limited experience is just how more tuned in stronger players get when they go to a tournament. It could be 4 teams or 40 teams in the field, it doesn't matter. If there's a cup and medals to play for, the interest levels and efforts of the stronger players go through the roof. Which personally I love to see happening. It just makes me wonder if the development leagues are actually suitable for the development of stronger players. Going through the motions in a series of "fun league" fixtures probably isn't helping them.

Long way of saying I don't know if it's good or bad, I suppose.

That is a great bit of work by the Down Board. In Tyrone there were 9 rounds of Go games from April to September. It was up to the participating clubs to arrange their own referees.

I don't mind the organising of the refs tbh. Usually just a matter of the home team drafting in some of the minors, which I think is good for them as well.

A few more games would definitely have been good.

What do clubs tend to do for training for the U8's and u10's? We do one night training during week and then games/ training Sat morning. But was speaking to 2 clubs who were out twice a week training then game. And to be honest it showed.
But I think that's a lot for that age group. Makes it hard for other activities. That said I know most of the players tend to love getting out and it's great to get them doing physical activity so often.

Quote from: trueblue1234 on October 11, 2022, 01:53:48 PM

Quote from: LeoMc on October 11, 2022, 01:31:27 PM

Quote from: thewobbler on October 10, 2022, 08:29:55 PM
Just finished up an u11.5 season where we'd 2 x teams, one a mostly p7 team playing in d1, one a mostly p6 team playing in d4. I jumped between the teams week on week and got a good flavour of both.

I have to say it's a credit to the South Down board (Brendan Rice the coordinator) that both our teams got 16-18 games on Sunday mornings with official referees,and just about every match played in the right spirit.

There are some serious plus points to Go Games. The first one being that I can count on one hand the number of players blown up for overcarrying all year; the players just seem to get it. The direct result of this is a clear need and resultant emphasis on other skills: quick hand passing and support play, longer, earlier passing, and timed tackling. Half backs can read space in the knowledge that opponents will have to kick. Full backs learn that they can stand a man up and force him into a mistake, even if he's twice their size. Midfielders (still the strongest athletes have to use their heads as well as their legs). From a coach's perspective, the non-competitive angle does allow you to t**ker with positions and give you more room to give weaker players a lengthier run out.

But there's clear downsides too. The weakest players just don't figure in the way anyone would hope they could. They tend to be too far off the pace in terms of athleticism, or interest levels, or both. Truth is, football is no more or less likely to be their medium term pursuit, than it was for 10 year olds of a similar ilk from 30 years ago. This sounds cruel, but when the weakest players manage to pair off against each other, it's a something of a relief for both sets of coaches. The lower mid-level players get many more touches (i assume) than in the "olden days" but they're usually little more than ball walls for the stronger players to get a rebound from. I guess the stronger mid-level players benefit the most: the rules mean the stronger players want and need them to get better and encourage them along.

But the biggest concern from my limited experience is just how more tuned in stronger players get when they go to a tournament. It could be 4 teams or 40 teams in the field, it doesn't matter. If there's a cup and medals to play for, the interest levels and efforts of the stronger players go through the roof. Which personally I love to see happening. It just makes me wonder if the development leagues are actually suitable for the development of stronger players. Going through the motions in a series of "fun league" fixtures probably isn't helping them.

Long way of saying I don't know if it's good or bad, I suppose.

That is a great bit of work by the Down Board. In Tyrone there were 9 rounds of Go games from April to September. It was up to the participating clubs to arrange their own referees.

I don't mind the organising of the refs tbh. Usually just a matter of the home team drafting in some of the minors, which I think is good for them as well.

A few more games would definitely have been good.

What do clubs tend to do for training for the U8's and u10's? We do one night training during week and then games/ training Sat morning. But was speaking to 2 clubs who were out twice a week training then game. And to be honest it showed.
But I think that's a lot for that age group. Makes it hard for other activities. That said I know most of the players tend to love getting out and it's great to get them doing physical activity so often.

Tournaments at underage need to be culled, they only create division and some take all day when the kids are standing around freezing most of the time. Then the dreaded 1-hour lunch break. They are one of my major gripes in the GAA

Quote from: Truth hurts on October 11, 2022, 02:07:54 PM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on October 11, 2022, 01:53:48 PM

Quote from: LeoMc on October 11, 2022, 01:31:27 PM

Quote from: thewobbler on October 10, 2022, 08:29:55 PM
Just finished up an u11.5 season where we'd 2 x teams, one a mostly p7 team playing in d1, one a mostly p6 team playing in d4. I jumped between the teams week on week and got a good flavour of both.

I have to say it's a credit to the South Down board (Brendan Rice the coordinator) that both our teams got 16-18 games on Sunday mornings with official referees,and just about every match played in the right spirit.

There are some serious plus points to Go Games. The first one being that I can count on one hand the number of players blown up for overcarrying all year; the players just seem to get it. The direct result of this is a clear need and resultant emphasis on other skills: quick hand passing and support play, longer, earlier passing, and timed tackling. Half backs can read space in the knowledge that opponents will have to kick. Full backs learn that they can stand a man up and force him into a mistake, even if he's twice their size. Midfielders (still the strongest athletes have to use their heads as well as their legs). From a coach's perspective, the non-competitive angle does allow you to t**ker with positions and give you more room to give weaker players a lengthier run out.

But there's clear downsides too. The weakest players just don't figure in the way anyone would hope they could. They tend to be too far off the pace in terms of athleticism, or interest levels, or both. Truth is, football is no more or less likely to be their medium term pursuit, than it was for 10 year olds of a similar ilk from 30 years ago. This sounds cruel, but when the weakest players manage to pair off against each other, it's a something of a relief for both sets of coaches. The lower mid-level players get many more touches (i assume) than in the "olden days" but they're usually little more than ball walls for the stronger players to get a rebound from. I guess the stronger mid-level players benefit the most: the rules mean the stronger players want and need them to get better and encourage them along.

But the biggest concern from my limited experience is just how more tuned in stronger players get when they go to a tournament. It could be 4 teams or 40 teams in the field, it doesn't matter. If there's a cup and medals to play for, the interest levels and efforts of the stronger players go through the roof. Which personally I love to see happening. It just makes me wonder if the development leagues are actually suitable for the development of stronger players. Going through the motions in a series of "fun league" fixtures probably isn't helping them.

Long way of saying I don't know if it's good or bad, I suppose.

That is a great bit of work by the Down Board. In Tyrone there were 9 rounds of Go games from April to September. It was up to the participating clubs to arrange their own referees.

I don't mind the organising of the refs tbh. Usually just a matter of the home team drafting in some of the minors, which I think is good for them as well.

A few more games would definitely have been good.

What do clubs tend to do for training for the U8's and u10's? We do one night training during week and then games/ training Sat morning. But was speaking to 2 clubs who were out twice a week training then game. And to be honest it showed.
But I think that's a lot for that age group. Makes it hard for other activities. That said I know most of the players tend to love getting out and it's great to get them doing physical activity so often.

Tournaments at underage need to be culled, they only create division and some take all day when the kids are standing around freezing most of the time. Then the dreaded 1-hour lunch break. They are one of my major gripes in the GAA

I'd disagree. Have great memories of going to various ones as a child and have been back plenty as a coach since. As long as they are well run there is certainly a place for them.

Quote from: Armagh18 on October 11, 2022, 02:10:40 PM

Quote from: Truth hurts on October 11, 2022, 02:07:54 PM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on October 11, 2022, 01:53:48 PM

Quote from: LeoMc on October 11, 2022, 01:31:27 PM

Quote from: thewobbler on October 10, 2022, 08:29:55 PM
Just finished up an u11.5 season where we'd 2 x teams, one a mostly p7 team playing in d1, one a mostly p6 team playing in d4. I jumped between the teams week on week and got a good flavour of both.

I have to say it's a credit to the South Down board (Brendan Rice the coordinator) that both our teams got 16-18 games on Sunday mornings with official referees,and just about every match played in the right spirit.

There are some serious plus points to Go Games. The first one being that I can count on one hand the number of players blown up for overcarrying all year; the players just seem to get it. The direct result of this is a clear need and resultant emphasis on other skills: quick hand passing and support play, longer, earlier passing, and timed tackling. Half backs can read space in the knowledge that opponents will have to kick. Full backs learn that they can stand a man up and force him into a mistake, even if he's twice their size. Midfielders (still the strongest athletes have to use their heads as well as their legs). From a coach's perspective, the non-competitive angle does allow you to t**ker with positions and give you more room to give weaker players a lengthier run out.

But there's clear downsides too. The weakest players just don't figure in the way anyone would hope they could. They tend to be too far off the pace in terms of athleticism, or interest levels, or both. Truth is, football is no more or less likely to be their medium term pursuit, than it was for 10 year olds of a similar ilk from 30 years ago. This sounds cruel, but when the weakest players manage to pair off against each other, it's a something of a relief for both sets of coaches. The lower mid-level players get many more touches (i assume) than in the "olden days" but they're usually little more than ball walls for the stronger players to get a rebound from. I guess the stronger mid-level players benefit the most: the rules mean the stronger players want and need them to get better and encourage them along.

But the biggest concern from my limited experience is just how more tuned in stronger players get when they go to a tournament. It could be 4 teams or 40 teams in the field, it doesn't matter. If there's a cup and medals to play for, the interest levels and efforts of the stronger players go through the roof. Which personally I love to see happening. It just makes me wonder if the development leagues are actually suitable for the development of stronger players. Going through the motions in a series of "fun league" fixtures probably isn't helping them.

Long way of saying I don't know if it's good or bad, I suppose.

That is a great bit of work by the Down Board. In Tyrone there were 9 rounds of Go games from April to September. It was up to the participating clubs to arrange their own referees.

I don't mind the organising of the refs tbh. Usually just a matter of the home team drafting in some of the minors, which I think is good for them as well.

A few more games would definitely have been good.

What do clubs tend to do for training for the U8's and u10's? We do one night training during week and then games/ training Sat morning. But was speaking to 2 clubs who were out twice a week training then game. And to be honest it showed.
But I think that's a lot for that age group. Makes it hard for other activities. That said I know most of the players tend to love getting out and it's great to get them doing physical activity so often.

Tournaments at underage need to be culled, they only create division and some take all day when the kids are standing around freezing most of the time. Then the dreaded 1-hour lunch break. They are one of my major gripes in the GAA

I'd disagree. Have great memories of going to various ones as a child and have been back plenty as a coach since. As long as they are well run there is certainly a place for them.

Agreed.

tournaments, especially outside your normal county boundaries are a good experience for the kids.

We're off to Dungannon for an U9 one this Sunday.  ;D

Once a week for training and a game, whether go games, tournaments or challenge games is plenty. The players would go 4-5 days a week all year round but you need to give them space to do other things and you do not want to fatigue the Parents or coaches.

Quote from: LeoMc on October 11, 2022, 05:08:50 PM
Once a week for training and a game, whether go games, tournaments or challenge games is plenty. The players would go 4-5 days a week all year round but you need to give them space to do other things and you do not want to fatigue the Parents or coaches.

Yeah, between football, hurling/camogie, soccer plus other activities (be it swimming, music, youth club etc) I think one training a week is plenty at the younger age groups.

Our club actually merged the football & hurling training at U7.5 age group which I thought was a great idea - introduced boys to hurling that probably wouldn't have otherwise taken it up; obviously not everyone kept it going but I think it's great to expose young children to as many activities as possible.

Quote from: cornerback on October 12, 2022, 09:49:06 AM

Quote from: LeoMc on October 11, 2022, 05:08:50 PM
Once a week for training and a game, whether go games, tournaments or challenge games is plenty. The players would go 4-5 days a week all year round but you need to give them space to do other things and you do not want to fatigue the Parents or coaches.

Yeah, between football, hurling/camogie, soccer plus other activities (be it swimming, music, youth club etc) I think one training a week is plenty at the younger age groups.

Our club actually merged the football & hurling training at U7.5 age group which I thought was a great idea - introduced boys to hurling that probably wouldn't have otherwise taken it up; obviously not everyone kept it going but I think it's great to expose young children to as many activities as possible.

My sons team do that, they do first 45 mins hurling then 45mins football or vica versa. when he started he hated hurling used to cry he didnt want to do it (prob to do with the helmet etc) but after about 6 months he's done a complete U turn and enjoys hurling more. Really shows that these things take time =. His coaches are first class too, brilliant with the kids which id say will stop there being a massive drop out rate.

It's not only players we lose; lack of involvement/ownership means we lose the sense of community, the future administrators and club officials

Quote from: befair on October 12, 2022, 07:02:06 PM
It's not only players we lose; lack of involvement/ownership means we lose the sense of community, the future administrators and club officials

I've heard variations of this thought process a volume of times the past few years, and I'm growing quite cynical about it.

Based on my own narrow club experience, future administrators are few on the ground, but easy to spot. They tend to have a sense of place, and help out with small jobs in a quiet manner from an early age. The "surprise package" administrators tend to come along when their children show interest / promise in the game, and they then throw their shoulder to the wheel.

Something I don't think correlates with future administrators at all, is some kind of relationship /curve  addressing how long they dragged out a playing career at juvenile and reserve ranks.

Quote from: thewobbler on October 12, 2022, 08:39:51 PM

Quote from: befair on October 12, 2022, 07:02:06 PM
It's not only players we lose; lack of involvement/ownership means we lose the sense of community, the future administrators and club officials

I've heard variations of this thought process a volume of times the past few years, and I'm growing quite cynical about it.

Based on my own narrow club experience, future administrators are few on the ground, but easy to spot. They tend to have a sense of place, and help out with small jobs in a quiet manner from an early age. The "surprise package" administrators tend to come along when their children show interest / promise in the game, and they then throw their shoulder to the wheel.

Something I don't think correlates with future administrators at all, is some kind of relationship /curve  addressing how long they dragged out a playing career at juvenile and reserve ranks.

Case closed, based on "your experience.'

Quote from: befair on October 13, 2022, 12:03:04 AM

Quote from: thewobbler on October 12, 2022, 08:39:51 PM

Quote from: befair on October 12, 2022, 07:02:06 PM
It's not only players we lose; lack of involvement/ownership means we lose the sense of community, the future administrators and club officials

I've heard variations of this thought process a volume of times the past few years, and I'm growing quite cynical about it.

Based on my own narrow club experience, future administrators are few on the ground, but easy to spot. They tend to have a sense of place, and help out with small jobs in a quiet manner from an early age. The "surprise package" administrators tend to come along when their children show interest / promise in the game, and they then throw their shoulder to the wheel.

Something I don't think correlates with future administrators at all, is some kind of relationship /curve  addressing how long they dragged out a playing career at juvenile and reserve ranks.

Case closed, based on "your experience.'

No, it's not like that. Not closed.

Just my experience.

Open to the floor.

Quote from: thewobbler on October 12, 2022, 08:39:51 PM

Quote from: befair on October 12, 2022, 07:02:06 PM
It's not only players we lose; lack of involvement/ownership means we lose the sense of community, the future administrators and club officials

I've heard variations of this thought process a volume of times the past few years, and I'm growing quite cynical about it.

Based on my own narrow club experience, future administrators are few on the ground, but easy to spot. They tend to have a sense of place, and help out with small jobs in a quiet manner from an early age. The "surprise package" administrators tend to come along when their children show interest / promise in the game, and they then throw their shoulder to the wheel.

Something I don't think correlates with future administrators at all, is some kind of relationship /curve  addressing how long they dragged out a playing career at juvenile and reserve ranks.

surely it stands to reason that if you stick out a playing career for longer the more attached you're going to feel to the club and when you get to the age where you can't play physically any more, you're more likely to think right how can I keep involved with the club thats been a big part of my life- be it joining the commitee or helping out with an underage team.

Quote from: Armagh18 on October 13, 2022, 07:50:24 AM

Quote from: thewobbler on October 12, 2022, 08:39:51 PM

Quote from: befair on October 12, 2022, 07:02:06 PM
It's not only players we lose; lack of involvement/ownership means we lose the sense of community, the future administrators and club officials

I've heard variations of this thought process a volume of times the past few years, and I'm growing quite cynical about it.

Based on my own narrow club experience, future administrators are few on the ground, but easy to spot. They tend to have a sense of place, and help out with small jobs in a quiet manner from an early age. The "surprise package" administrators tend to come along when their children show interest / promise in the game, and they then throw their shoulder to the wheel.

Something I don't think correlates with future administrators at all, is some kind of relationship /curve  addressing how long they dragged out a playing career at juvenile and reserve ranks.

surely it stands to reason that if you stick out a playing career for longer the more attached you're going to feel to the club and when you get to the age where you can't play physically any more, you're more likely to think right how can I keep involved with the club thats been a big part of my life- be it joining the commitee or helping out with an underage team.

Playing for a long time certainly correlates with taking teams, maybe not administrating. Probably down to the fact that someone who never played the game will never be respected as a coach, "sure what would he know he didn't know which end of a stick to hold!"

Personally, I like the go-game format.
Plenty of football played in the right spirit by all sides. And nearly every game ends in a draw.
Kids go home happy, have practiced their skills and hopefully enhanced their love of the game and the organisation.

Lets face it, only a small percentage will ever go on play Senior unless they are from a very small club.
So it should be about fun, building friendships, keeping healthy and promoting the games. The "star" at u9s won't necessarily be the star at minor or senior, he has just developed quicker. Give me a team of mediocre kids who love the game and try their best any day over a star who won't pass the ball to someone as they aren't good enough.

I find the tournament format is way too competitive for the younger teams. I think u11.5 is early enough to start tournaments, and even at that I think the same approach should be used as with go-games. Especially with coaches and parents.
I've seen coaches making a go for a ref at underage tournaments, shouting at kids and leaving them in tears as they didn't track back or cover the space.
I've seen one coach tell the whole team they were useless when they got beat in a shield semi!
It brings out the worst in coaches and parents in my view and since no-one is going to remember who won the u9.5 tournament in bally-wherever in 2022, then it shouldnt be made out to be such a big deal.

I coach myself and I try to always make it about enjoyment and encouragement. Of course there are times when you think to yourself "ah jaysus", but that's not something young kids need to hear.

The real reason for tournaments, that no-one has mentioned, is to raise money. A club can lift 1-2K for an underage tournament when they take in entry fees, shop etc.
I don't like them. But I'll probably still keep going to them as the kids love them.

The GAA needs to bring in silent sidelines up to U11.5

Quote from: tbrick18 on October 17, 2022, 02:14:32 PM
Personally, I like the go-game format.
Plenty of football played in the right spirit by all sides. And nearly every game ends in a draw.
Kids go home happy, have practiced their skills and hopefully enhanced their love of the game and the organisation.

Lets face it, only a small percentage will ever go on play Senior unless they are from a very small club.
So it should be about fun, building friendships, keeping healthy and promoting the games. The "star" at u9s won't necessarily be the star at minor or senior, he has just developed quicker. Give me a team of mediocre kids who love the game and try their best any day over a star who won't pass the ball to someone as they aren't good enough.

I find the tournament format is way too competitive for the younger teams. I think u11.5 is early enough to start tournaments, and even at that I think the same approach should be used as with go-games. Especially with coaches and parents.
I've seen coaches making a go for a ref at underage tournaments, shouting at kids and leaving them in tears as they didn't track back or cover the space.
I've seen one coach tell the whole team they were useless when they got beat in a shield semi!
It brings out the worst in coaches and parents in my view and since no-one is going to remember who won the u9.5 tournament in bally-wherever in 2022, then it shouldnt be made out to be such a big deal.

I coach myself and I try to always make it about enjoyment and encouragement. Of course there are times when you think to yourself "ah jaysus", but that's not something young kids need to hear.

The real reason for tournaments, that no-one has mentioned, is to raise money. A club can lift 1-2K for an underage tournament when they take in entry fees, shop etc.
I don't like them. But I'll probably still keep going to them as the kids love them.

The big cup tournaments aren't the best for development but when you get a win most of the kids love it but it's very difficult to win and get everyone equal game time. My lads are just out of U11.5 and they've been to cup tournaments at 8s, 9s and 11s. They hurled all that time too, and no club has run a cup tournament in Down, or at least Ballela didn't go/get asked if there was. It's always blitzes, 3 or 4 games and away home. I honestly can't say one is better than the other for development of senior players but there's definitely less of the shite you mention in the hurling blitzes.

Silent sidelines could be good, but it wouldn't last 10 minutes with some of the eejits about.

Quote from: screenexile on October 17, 2022, 02:20:04 PM
The GAA needs to bring in silent sidelines up to U11.5

I was at an u9.5 tournanent in Carryduff a couple of weeks back. After the group stages of games they said that no coaches would be allowed near the goals due to an incident in an earlier game they had to address. Turns out an opposition coach was "distracting" the keeper. Seriously. At an u9.5 tournament.
The keeper thing at some tournaments annoys me too. go-games have no keeper so tournaments should be subject to the same rules. But clubs set their own tournament rules.
I think there was an attempt a couple of years ago to ban tournaments in favour of go-games only, but I don't know if that ban is just ignored or if it fell through.

I dont mind coaches giving their own players instructions and that's why i wouldnt want a silent sideline, but some coaches and parents need to catch themselves on a bit.

edit: a very well run tournament in carryduff by the way. Some excellent referees and loads of football.

Quote from: tbrick18 on October 17, 2022, 02:39:00 PM

Quote from: screenexile on October 17, 2022, 02:20:04 PM
The GAA needs to bring in silent sidelines up to U11.5

I was at an u9.5 tournanent in Carryduff a couple of weeks back. After the group stages of games they said that no coaches would be allowed near the goals due to an incident in an earlier game they had to address. Turns out an opposition coach was "distracting" the keeper. Seriously. At an u9.5 tournament.
The keeper thing at some tournaments annoys me too. go-games have no keeper so tournaments should be subject to the same rules. But clubs set their own tournament rules.
I think there was an attempt a couple of years ago to ban tournaments in favour of go-games only, but I don't know if that ban is just ignored or if it fell through.

I dont mind coaches giving their own players instructions and that's why i wouldnt want a silent sideline, but some coaches and parents need to catch themselves on a bit.

edit: a very well run tournament in carryduff by the way. Some excellent referees and loads of football.

Silent sideline bar say 2 designated coaches, one on each side?

Quote from: tbrick18 on October 17, 2022, 02:39:00 PM

Quote from: screenexile on October 17, 2022, 02:20:04 PM
The GAA needs to bring in silent sidelines up to U11.5

I was at an u9.5 tournanent in Carryduff a couple of weeks back. After the group stages of games they said that no coaches would be allowed near the goals due to an incident in an earlier game they had to address. Turns out an opposition coach was "distracting" the keeper. Seriously. At an u9.5 tournament.
The keeper thing at some tournaments annoys me too. go-games have no keeper so tournaments should be subject to the same rules. But clubs set their own tournament rules.
I think there was an attempt a couple of years ago to ban tournaments in favour of go-games only, but I don't know if that ban is just ignored or if it fell through.

I dont mind coaches giving their own players instructions and that's why i wouldnt want a silent sideline, but some coaches and parents need to catch themselves on a bit.

edit: a very well run tournament in carryduff by the way. Some excellent referees and loads of football.

Do you mean there's no keeper at all? I know some Armagh tournaments have 2 points for a point and 1 point for goal.

Quote from: tbrick18 on October 17, 2022, 02:14:32 PM
Personally, I like the go-game format.
Plenty of football played in the right spirit by all sides. And nearly every game ends in a draw.
Kids go home happy, have practiced their skills and hopefully enhanced their love of the game and the organisation.

Lets face it, only a small percentage will ever go on play Senior unless they are from a very small club.
So it should be about fun, building friendships, keeping healthy and promoting the games. The "star" at u9s won't necessarily be the star at minor or senior, he has just developed quicker. Give me a team of mediocre kids who love the game and try their best any day over a star who won't pass the ball to someone as they aren't good enough.

I find the tournament format is way too competitive for the younger teams. I think u11.5 is early enough to start tournaments, and even at that I think the same approach should be used as with go-games. Especially with coaches and parents.
I've seen coaches making a go for a ref at underage tournaments, shouting at kids and leaving them in tears as they didn't track back or cover the space.
I've seen one coach tell the whole team they were useless when they got beat in a shield semi!
It brings out the worst in coaches and parents in my view and since no-one is going to remember who won the u9.5 tournament in bally-wherever in 2022, then it shouldnt be made out to be such a big deal.

I coach myself and I try to always make it about enjoyment and encouragement. Of course there are times when you think to yourself "ah jaysus", but that's not something young kids need to hear.

The real reason for tournaments, that no-one has mentioned, is to raise money. A club can lift 1-2K for an underage tournament when they take in entry fees, shop etc.
I don't like them. But I'll probably still keep going to them as the kids love them.

Eh?

how much are clubs charging on entry fee's?

£30 tops for any our club has been to and there's maybe a dozen clubs/teams at them...

I doubt there's a clear £1k made from many tournaments over the year myself.

And trust me, there's a hundred easier ways to make a grand than running a tourney.

Quote from: tbrick18 on October 17, 2022, 02:14:32 PM
Personally, I like the go-game format.
Plenty of football played in the right spirit by all sides. And nearly every game ends in a draw.
Kids go home happy, have practiced their skills and hopefully enhanced their love of the game and the organisation.

Lets face it, only a small percentage will ever go on play Senior unless they are from a very small club.
So it should be about fun, building friendships, keeping healthy and promoting the games. The "star" at u9s won't necessarily be the star at minor or senior, he has just developed quicker. Give me a team of mediocre kids who love the game and try their best any day over a star who won't pass the ball to someone as they aren't good enough.

I find the tournament format is way too competitive for the younger teams. I think u11.5 is early enough to start tournaments, and even at that I think the same approach should be used as with go-games. Especially with coaches and parents.
I've seen coaches making a go for a ref at underage tournaments, shouting at kids and leaving them in tears as they didn't track back or cover the space.
I've seen one coach tell the whole team they were useless when they got beat in a shield semi!
It brings out the worst in coaches and parents in my view and since no-one is going to remember who won the u9.5 tournament in bally-wherever in 2022, then it shouldnt be made out to be such a big deal.

I coach myself and I try to always make it about enjoyment and encouragement. Of course there are times when you think to yourself "ah jaysus", but that's not something young kids need to hear.

The real reason for tournaments, that no-one has mentioned, is to raise money. A club can lift 1-2K for an underage tournament when they take in entry fees, shop etc.
I don't like them. But I'll probably still keep going to them as the kids love them.

Some people would really need to have a word with themselves at these tournaments. Coaches and parents. Lots of the time its young people referring these games .They haven't went on an intensive referring course and yet the abuse they can get over a simple decision is frankly ridiculous. People absolutely losing the run of themselves. Roaring and shouting.

I coached our underage team and we actually won a tournament but we got far more out of the Go Games. Players in different positions, trying different things, less serious more fun.

There are some fantastic people involved with teams but there are also some nutters.

Quote from: bigarsedkeeper on October 17, 2022, 03:06:24 PM

Quote from: tbrick18 on October 17, 2022, 02:39:00 PM

Quote from: screenexile on October 17, 2022, 02:20:04 PM
The GAA needs to bring in silent sidelines up to U11.5

I was at an u9.5 tournanent in Carryduff a couple of weeks back. After the group stages of games they said that no coaches would be allowed near the goals due to an incident in an earlier game they had to address. Turns out an opposition coach was "distracting" the keeper. Seriously. At an u9.5 tournament.
The keeper thing at some tournaments annoys me too. go-games have no keeper so tournaments should be subject to the same rules. But clubs set their own tournament rules.
I think there was an attempt a couple of years ago to ban tournaments in favour of go-games only, but I don't know if that ban is just ignored or if it fell through.

I dont mind coaches giving their own players instructions and that's why i wouldnt want a silent sideline, but some coaches and parents need to catch themselves on a bit.

edit: a very well run tournament in carryduff by the way. Some excellent referees and loads of football.

Do you mean there's no keeper at all? I know some Armagh tournaments have 2 points for a point and 1 point for goal.

Any go games I've ever been to never have a keeper.
I've been at tournaments with a GK and they its 1pt a goal and 2pts for a point to encourage kids to shoot for points. But teams then play tactics, and use the keeper as a fly keeper as they dont mind the goals! For me that defeats the purpose of the format.

Quote from: thewobbler on October 17, 2022, 04:00:42 PM
I doubt there's a clear £1k made from many tournaments over the year myself.

And trust me, there's a hundred easier ways to make a grand than running a tourney.

Pre covid, our club ran an annual u8s and u10s tournament (thinking about it that's even before they changed the age groups).
16 teams minimum, maybe 20.
16 x 30 entry is 480 quid.
A tuck shop....usually lifted a solid 6-700. Between the 2 tournaments we were looking at clearing 2k-ish. That money was then held for the youth teams to fund buses, balls, training equipment etc.

I've been at tournaments where entry was 50.
That have a BBQ running....and in my view that left really long periods where a team could be standing around for an hour waitin for the next game. So kids head to the shop or for a burger. Blatant fundraising.

Quote from: tbrick18 on October 17, 2022, 05:29:50 PM

Quote from: thewobbler on October 17, 2022, 04:00:42 PM
I doubt there's a clear £1k made from many tournaments over the year myself.

And trust me, there's a hundred easier ways to make a grand than running a tourney.

Pre covid, our club ran an annual u8s and u10s tournament (thinking about it that's even before they changed the age groups).
16 teams minimum, maybe 20.
16 x 30 entry is 480 quid.
A tuck shop....usually lifted a solid 6-700. Between the 2 tournaments we were looking at clearing 2k-ish. That money was then held for the youth teams to fund buses, balls, training equipment etc.

I've been at tournaments where entry was 50.
That have a BBQ running....and in my view that left really long periods where a team could be standing around for an hour waitin for the next game. So kids head to the shop or for a burger. Blatant fundraising.

They can be a decent fundraiser. We were invited to one and the entry fee was €100. We didn't go in the end up.
Silent sidelines would be a great introduction. I can't have people shouting or even talking to my players. I always call that out. No other manager or supporter is allowed to shout at my team for any reason.

Quote from: tbrick18 on October 17, 2022, 05:29:50 PM

Quote from: thewobbler on October 17, 2022, 04:00:42 PM
I doubt there's a clear £1k made from many tournaments over the year myself.

And trust me, there's a hundred easier ways to make a grand than running a tourney.

Pre covid, our club ran an annual u8s and u10s tournament (thinking about it that's even before they changed the age groups).
16 teams minimum, maybe 20.
16 x 30 entry is 480 quid.
A tuck shop....usually lifted a solid 6-700. Between the 2 tournaments we were looking at clearing 2k-ish. That money was then held for the youth teams to fund buses, balls, training equipment etc.

I've been at tournaments where entry was 50.
That have a BBQ running....and in my view that left really long periods where a team could be standing around for an hour waitin for the next game. So kids head to the shop or for a burger. Blatant fundraising.

No doubt they can make money. But the majority make a trivial amount, would be my guess.

We did get invited to an u9 or u11 tournament this year with an £85 entry fee. I chuckled at that one. But in what might be an upside,  if all clubs go down ghis route there'll be a lot fewer tournaments.

Isn't it Dromintee who rips clubs off with a £100 entry or something like that? Crazy
It should be 25-30 to enter a team and should be no waiting around for games. Any club that takes a break needs a chat with as there will always be a break for teams. Its a lot of work to organize one .
I think parents enjoy the odd one but every Saturday running to them is hassle.

Quote from: Truth hurts on October 18, 2022, 09:20:34 AM
Isn't it Dromintee who rips clubs off with a £100 entry or something like that? Crazy
It should be 25-30 to enter a team and should be no waiting around for games. Any club that takes a break needs a chat with as there will always be a break for teams. Its a lot of work to organize one .
I think parents enjoy the odd one but every Saturday running to them is hassle.

I was at the Dromintee one a few times- runs like absolute clockwork military precision and is a credit to them. £100 maybe doesn't sound like much but it soon adds up if you have multiple teams looking to go to multiple tournaments.

Glenullin run one in Derry for U9.5s and U12.5s I think. Magic set up, couldnt fault it one bit. Hooter goes for start, ht and ft so all games start and finish at the same time.

Quote from: HiMucker on October 18, 2022, 10:49:24 AM
Glenullin run one in Derry for U9.5s and U12.5s I think. Magic set up, couldnt fault it one bit. Hooter goes for start, ht and ft so all games start and finish at the same time.

Most that I have been to over the last year or so around the different counties have been run like that. Its the only way to do it. There is nothing worse than going to a tournament and group games are still being played while others have finished up and lads left twiddling their thumbs waiting for the knockout stages. If you aren't lined out and ready to go when the hooter goes then hard luck.

Quote from: HiMucker on October 18, 2022, 10:49:24 AM
Glenullin run one in Derry for U9.5s and U12.5s I think. Magic set up, couldnt fault it one bit. Hooter goes for start, ht and ft so all games start and finish at the same time.

Yes hooter a great job. Keep it running on. A well run tournament is a joy. Those that drag on with the lunch break are a torture. And the Kids start messing about and that's when they hurt themselves.

Larry not a big fan of competitive underage tournaments it seems:

QuoteGAA President Larry McCarthy says competitive Go Games tournaments (for the U12 age group) have "no place" in the Association.

Speaking at Congress in Croke Park, McCarthy referenced the High Court Case, which was resolved last week between a Dublin family and the Fingallians club in Swords. That dispute emanated from an U9 Blitz in Newry and McCarthy said competitive blitzes which were commonplace around clubs, are no suitable for Go Games players.

In Go Games no scores are kept because the emphasis is on participation and enjoyment for as many children as possible.

"It is disconcerting to see a parent sue a club because of lack of playing time for a child," said McCarthy.

"I accept totally that such behaviour is a complete outlier but when you realize that lack of playing time was the complaint most often received by Children's Officers in 30 of 32 counties last Autumn, it suggests that we may have an underlying issue that needs to be addressed.

"When our Go Games programme was launched it was rightfully lauded for its philosophy of inclusion and encouragement, essentially making sure all children had fun.

"We need to return to that founding philosophy. Competitive Go Games tournaments have no place on our calendar and I would ask you not to organise, endorse, or give permission for them to take place.

"The over-emphasis on winning at such a young age is totally anathema to the philosophy of Go Games, is damaging to children, and deters people from involvement in the Association. Fun is good."

Quote from: square_ball on February 21, 2023, 09:34:37 AM
Larry not a big fan of competitive underage tournaments it seems:

QuoteGAA President Larry McCarthy says competitive Go Games tournaments (for the U12 age group) have "no place" in the Association.

Speaking at Congress in Croke Park, McCarthy referenced the High Court Case, which was resolved last week between a Dublin family and the Fingallians club in Swords. That dispute emanated from an U9 Blitz in Newry and McCarthy said competitive blitzes which were commonplace around clubs, are no suitable for Go Games players.

In Go Games no scores are kept because the emphasis is on participation and enjoyment for as many children as possible.

"It is disconcerting to see a parent sue a club because of lack of playing time for a child," said McCarthy.

"I accept totally that such behaviour is a complete outlier but when you realize that lack of playing time was the complaint most often received by Children's Officers in 30 of 32 counties last Autumn, it suggests that we may have an underlying issue that needs to be addressed.

"When our Go Games programme was launched it was rightfully lauded for its philosophy of inclusion and encouragement, essentially making sure all children had fun.

"We need to return to that founding philosophy. Competitive Go Games tournaments have no place on our calendar and I would ask you not to organise, endorse, or give permission for them to take place.

"The over-emphasis on winning at such a young age is totally anathema to the philosophy of Go Games, is damaging to children, and deters people from involvement in the Association. Fun is good."

He is spot on, competition should begin at U13 - U14 level. Its disgusting to see the shouting, roaring, abuse of referees at competions for U11's. Parents & some coaches would need to chill.

Quote from: Rudi on February 21, 2023, 09:51:48 AM

Quote from: square_ball on February 21, 2023, 09:34:37 AM
Larry not a big fan of competitive underage tournaments it seems:

QuoteGAA President Larry McCarthy says competitive Go Games tournaments (for the U12 age group) have "no place" in the Association.

Speaking at Congress in Croke Park, McCarthy referenced the High Court Case, which was resolved last week between a Dublin family and the Fingallians club in Swords. That dispute emanated from an U9 Blitz in Newry and McCarthy said competitive blitzes which were commonplace around clubs, are no suitable for Go Games players.

In Go Games no scores are kept because the emphasis is on participation and enjoyment for as many children as possible.

"It is disconcerting to see a parent sue a club because of lack of playing time for a child," said McCarthy.

"I accept totally that such behaviour is a complete outlier but when you realize that lack of playing time was the complaint most often received by Children's Officers in 30 of 32 counties last Autumn, it suggests that we may have an underlying issue that needs to be addressed.

"When our Go Games programme was launched it was rightfully lauded for its philosophy of inclusion and encouragement, essentially making sure all children had fun.

"We need to return to that founding philosophy. Competitive Go Games tournaments have no place on our calendar and I would ask you not to organise, endorse, or give permission for them to take place.

"The over-emphasis on winning at such a young age is totally anathema to the philosophy of Go Games, is damaging to children, and deters people from involvement in the Association. Fun is good."

He is spot on, competition should begin at U13 - U14 level. Its disgusting to see the shouting, roaring, abuse of referees at competions for U11's. Parents & some coaches would need to chill.

The GAA should be doing more to protect kids in situations like this.
Kids are competitive enough on their own.
There's nothing more pathetic that watching some dad going ape on the sidelines.

Down brought in a hybrid type Go Games at U-13 level in 2022. Had mixed feelings on it.

Quote from: DownFanatic on February 21, 2023, 11:40:11 AM
Down brought in a hybrid type Go Games at U-13 level in 2022. Had mixed feelings on it.

2 touches at u13 level was very good and the smaller pitch helped the game.

I think the go games are a positive. You wouldnt believe some of the kids who have a desire to win at all ages. Do you dampen their will to win so that Joe who probably will never play gaelic after the age of 10 gets some game time? I have also seem parents being their kids to a small cup game when their child never attended training. They expected their child to play

Parents are to blame as well. I have seen 30 kids turn up to go games and everyone expects their kids to get game time.

Main issue I see with teenagers and young adults is they want everything handed to them. My view is kids working hard and being competitive while having fun is a good thing and will make them more resilient later in life

go games are positive and indeed i would push to do away with competitive tournaments at u-10/u12 as parents/coaches have a win at all costs mentality to teh detriment of children`s developement

Quote from: tyrone08 on February 21, 2023, 01:10:03 PM
I think the go games are a positive. You wouldnt believe some of the kids who have a desire to win at all ages. Do you dampen their will to win so that Joe who probably will never play gaelic after the age of 10 gets some game time? I have also seem parents being their kids to a small cup game when their child never attended training. They expected their child to play

Parents are to blame as well. I have seen 30 kids turn up to go games and everyone expects their kids to get game time.

Main issue I see with teenagers and young adults is they want everything handed to them. My view is kids working hard and being competitive while having fun is a good thing and will make them more resilient later in life

Maybe Joe doesn't play after age 10 as he was not getting any game time.

Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2023, 01:44:41 PM

Quote from: tyrone08 on February 21, 2023, 01:10:03 PM
I think the go games are a positive. You wouldnt believe some of the kids who have a desire to win at all ages. Do you dampen their will to win so that Joe who probably will never play gaelic after the age of 10 gets some game time? I have also seem parents being their kids to a small cup game when their child never attended training. They expected their child to play

Parents are to blame as well. I have seen 30 kids turn up to go games and everyone expects their kids to get game time.

Main issue I see with teenagers and young adults is they want everything handed to them. My view is kids working hard and being competitive while having fun is a good thing and will make them more resilient later in life

Maybe Joe doesn't play after age 10 as he was not getting any game time.

Exactly & they all develop at different ages

Quote from: tyrone08 on February 21, 2023, 01:10:03 PM
I think the go games are a positive. You wouldnt believe some of the kids who have a desire to win at all ages. Do you dampen their will to win so that Joe who probably will never play gaelic after the age of 10 gets some game time? I have also seem parents being their kids to a small cup game when their child never attended training. They expected their child to play

Parents are to blame as well. I have seen 30 kids turn up to go games and everyone expects their kids to get game time.

Main issue I see with teenagers and young adults is they want everything handed to them. My view is kids working hard and being competitive while having fun is a good thing and will make them more resilient later in life

Whatever about tournaments (and I have very mixed feelings on these), all kids should get equal game time at a Go Game no matter what their ability is or whether their mother or father brought them to training. The clue is in the title, every child gets a Go.

Quote from: trailer on February 21, 2023, 02:11:48 PM

Quote from: tyrone08 on February 21, 2023, 01:10:03 PM
I think the go games are a positive. You wouldnt believe some of the kids who have a desire to win at all ages. Do you dampen their will to win so that Joe who probably will never play gaelic after the age of 10 gets some game time? I have also seem parents being their kids to a small cup game when their child never attended training. They expected their child to play

Parents are to blame as well. I have seen 30 kids turn up to go games and everyone expects their kids to get game time.

Main issue I see with teenagers and young adults is they want everything handed to them. My view is kids working hard and being competitive while having fun is a good thing and will make them more resilient later in life

Whatever about tournaments (and I have very mixed feelings on these), all kids should get equal game time at a Go Game no matter what their ability is or whether their mother or father brought them to training. The clue is in the title, every child gets a Go.

Agree on the first bit but priority has to go to the ones who train- no training, no game imo.

Quote from: Armagh18 on February 21, 2023, 02:20:12 PM

Quote from: trailer on February 21, 2023, 02:11:48 PM

Quote from: tyrone08 on February 21, 2023, 01:10:03 PM
I think the go games are a positive. You wouldnt believe some of the kids who have a desire to win at all ages. Do you dampen their will to win so that Joe who probably will never play gaelic after the age of 10 gets some game time? I have also seem parents being their kids to a small cup game when their child never attended training. They expected their child to play

Parents are to blame as well. I have seen 30 kids turn up to go games and everyone expects their kids to get game time.

Main issue I see with teenagers and young adults is they want everything handed to them. My view is kids working hard and being competitive while having fun is a good thing and will make them more resilient later in life

Whatever about tournaments (and I have very mixed feelings on these), all kids should get equal game time at a Go Game no matter what their ability is or whether their mother or father brought them to training. The clue is in the title, every child gets a Go.

Agree on the first bit but priority has to go to the ones who train- no training, no game imo.

Harsh on some 7 or 8 year who given the choice would probably be at training but because Mum or Dad is working or away or the child has been sick during the week or whatever and they can't get that they don't get any football. Again the scores don't matter, it's about getting kids to have a Go.

Quote from: tyrone08 on February 21, 2023, 01:10:03 PM
I think the go games are a positive. You wouldnt believe some of the kids who have a desire to win at all ages. Do you dampen their will to win so that Joe who probably will never play gaelic after the age of 10 gets some game time? I have also seem parents being their kids to a small cup game when their child never attended training. They expected their child to play

Parents are to blame as well. I have seen 30 kids turn up to go games and everyone expects their kids to get game time.

Main issue I see with teenagers and young adults is they want everything handed to them. My view is kids working hard and being competitive while having fun is a good thing and will make them more resilient later in life

They should all be getting similar game time at that age. If you have 30 kids, you should have 2 teams set up. A number of clubs do that. You don't want to stifle the will to win. But it needs to be done with each player getting their fair time. That's the core ethos of the go games.

Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2023, 02:58:27 PM

Quote from: tyrone08 on February 21, 2023, 01:10:03 PM
I think the go games are a positive. You wouldnt believe some of the kids who have a desire to win at all ages. Do you dampen their will to win so that Joe who probably will never play gaelic after the age of 10 gets some game time? I have also seem parents being their kids to a small cup game when their child never attended training. They expected their child to play

Parents are to blame as well. I have seen 30 kids turn up to go games and everyone expects their kids to get game time.

Main issue I see with teenagers and young adults is they want everything handed to them. My view is kids working hard and being competitive while having fun is a good thing and will make them more resilient later in life

They should all be getting similar game time at that age. If you have 30 kids, you should have 2 teams set up. A number of clubs do that. You don't want to stifle the will to win. But it needs to be done with each player getting their fair time. That's the core ethos of the go games.

Two teams wouldn't even be enough it should be 3 minimum for that number of kids.

Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2023, 02:58:27 PM

Quote from: tyrone08 on February 21, 2023, 01:10:03 PM
I think the go games are a positive. You wouldnt believe some of the kids who have a desire to win at all ages. Do you dampen their will to win so that Joe who probably will never play gaelic after the age of 10 gets some game time? I have also seem parents being their kids to a small cup game when their child never attended training. They expected their child to play

Parents are to blame as well. I have seen 30 kids turn up to go games and everyone expects their kids to get game time.

Main issue I see with teenagers and young adults is they want everything handed to them. My view is kids working hard and being competitive while having fun is a good thing and will make them more resilient later in life

They should all be getting similar game time at that age. If you have 30 kids, you should have 2 teams set up. A number of clubs do that. You don't want to stifle the will to win. But it needs to be done with each player getting their fair time. That's the core ethos of the go games.

Has anyone ever actually managed to stifle the will to win in kids?

It's a good wee chat here and it's a difficult problem to resolve. My brother does a bit of coaching and he told me a few years ago they wanted to spilt his 2 teams evenly to give more game time instead of having a strong and weaker team. Both teams heavily beaten, kids keep score themselves so it didn't matter if it wasnt offical. It was a mixed bag as the players who rarely showed up or didn't have much interest were happy to get playing. The better players were literally crying as they had lost and really wanted to win.

No easy solution as all clubs do it differently. No point in one club doing it "right" by splitting the teams even only to come across a team who have a stronger and weaker side then they get hammered.

Like I said counting scores doesn't matter as the kids know themselves.

Quote from: tyrone08 on February 21, 2023, 05:05:29 PM
It's a good wee chat here and it's a difficult problem to resolve. My brother does a bit of coaching and he told me a few years ago they wanted to spilt his 2 teams evenly to give more game time instead of having a strong and weaker team. Both teams heavily beaten, kids keep score themselves so it didn't matter if it wasnt offical. It was a mixed bag as the players who rarely showed up or didn't have much interest were happy to get playing. The better players were literally crying as they had lost and really wanted to win.

No easy solution as all clubs do it differently. No point in one club doing it "right" by splitting the teams even only to come across a team who have a stronger and weaker side then they get hammered.

Like I said counting scores doesn't matter as the kids know themselves.

This in a nutshell.

Even without keeping scores, kids ask and ask and ask who won. When you reply that it was a draw they laugh at you and tell you the exact scoreline.

So while Go Games help in getting game time for kids it certainly doesnt change the competitive nature of the majority of kids

Quote from: Taylor on February 21, 2023, 05:14:24 PM

Quote from: tyrone08 on February 21, 2023, 05:05:29 PM
It's a good wee chat here and it's a difficult problem to resolve. My brother does a bit of coaching and he told me a few years ago they wanted to spilt his 2 teams evenly to give more game time instead of having a strong and weaker team. Both teams heavily beaten, kids keep score themselves so it didn't matter if it wasnt offical. It was a mixed bag as the players who rarely showed up or didn't have much interest were happy to get playing. The better players were literally crying as they had lost and really wanted to win.

No easy solution as all clubs do it differently. No point in one club doing it "right" by splitting the teams even only to come across a team who have a stronger and weaker side then they get hammered.

Like I said counting scores doesn't matter as the kids know themselves.

This in a nutshell.

Even without keeping scores, kids ask and ask and ask who won. When you reply that it was a draw they laugh at you and tell you the exact scoreline.

So while Go Games help in getting game time for kids it certainly doesnt change the competitive nature of the majority of kids

Yeah, hard to keep everyone happy.

The Go Games are played about 15+ times a year which teams are of mixed ability. I think it's organised the week before saying how many players you have and then the teams are sorted thst way i.e. 28 players you'll have 4 teams of 7.  I never heard of one team going with 20 players. If they only have one team, that's the coaches' fault.

I think there are 'tournaments' later in the year i.e. September and October . Late enough with the poorer weather.  These are for cups and shields etc. and are organised on ability groupings. They are competitive as lads are competitive.

I don't mind having Go Games 80% of the season, then a few competitions at the end of the year. Lads develop at different rates. Most important thing is thst they're back the following year.

There's loads of examples of footballers who weren't talented or had limited ability at underage going on to play Senior County football. Even Tyrone I think Meyler and Hampsey played very little county underage football. Ricey could be another. I have seen ordinary enough kids at 7, 8 and 9 go on become excellent players in u15 and 17 teams. They develop not just ability wise but physically as well.
I also remember loads of lads from School who you would have thought they will go on and be superstars and it just never happened. Some didn't even play senior club football. They maybe had a physical advantage at 10 or 11 that disappeared over time and their ability didn't develop. 

I agree it is hard at that young age, kids want to win and you want them to win so they're happy and they enjoy it, but there is a bigger picture and as coaches we have a responsibility to all the children no matter their ability or behaviour which is probably a bigger problem.

Quote from: twohands!!! on February 21, 2023, 04:51:11 PM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2023, 02:58:27 PM

Quote from: tyrone08 on February 21, 2023, 01:10:03 PM
I think the go games are a positive. You wouldnt believe some of the kids who have a desire to win at all ages. Do you dampen their will to win so that Joe who probably will never play gaelic after the age of 10 gets some game time? I have also seem parents being their kids to a small cup game when their child never attended training. They expected their child to play

Parents are to blame as well. I have seen 30 kids turn up to go games and everyone expects their kids to get game time.

Main issue I see with teenagers and young adults is they want everything handed to them. My view is kids working hard and being competitive while having fun is a good thing and will make them more resilient later in life

They should all be getting similar game time at that age. If you have 30 kids, you should have 2 teams set up. A number of clubs do that. You don't want to stifle the will to win. But it needs to be done with each player getting their fair time. That's the core ethos of the go games.

Has anyone ever actually managed to stifle the will to win in kids?

Yep. Not me personally. But non-competitive football over a season has done it.

The difference in application and intensity our more-developed 11.5 players brought to tournament play at the tail end of last season, compared to how they approached concurrent non-competitive weekly league games, would have been obvious to anyone.

Again I don't think there's a perfect solution here.

But the kids who are more likely to still be playing football at u17 (let alone adult) are the naturally more competitive ones. This has nothing to with Gaelic Games, Irish culture or even coaching, and has everything to do with the fact that some of us are genetically wired to treat games as more important than life, and some of us are not. And I have a continued feeling that this quest for non-competitive sport among primary age children, is a little misguided. 

I hate underage tournaments. Standing around for hours on end to give kids 40 minutes of football in madness. Lets stop for lunch for an hour in between for sandwiches. They need culled.

I don't agree with mixing everyone in together but play the kids at their level so they can improve and have fun.

Parents demanding their son plays on the A team when they are not fit to needs culled as well.

Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2023, 11:46:29 AM
I hate underage tournaments. Standing around for hours on end to give kids 40 minutes of football in madness. Lets stop for lunch for an hour in between for sandwiches. They need culled.

I don't agree with mixing everyone in together but play the kids at their level so they can improve and have fun.

Parents demanding their son plays on the A team when they are not fit to needs culled as well.

Parents at games needs culled, trying to live their useless playing career in their kids shoes..

Tournaments are fine, and providing you stamp out that shit early on then you are going to have a hassle free day and the kids love it...

I've taken kids all over the country, indoor hurling tournaments to go games when they first started out and you'll always get 1 or 2 teams that you can see that have been 'coached' for Go games ffs!!

We run a football and hurling one every year and to date it is always a great day out for most. While we'd like to do well in it we are beyond that must win at all costs mentality

As for parents/coaches you need strong referees on site, any sign of weakness they'll be jumping and shouting like it's an All Ireland..

The last tournament we did I sent a coach outside the pitch completely, we've 6 games going on at one time, his club got to the final and won, but he was in his car the whole day, slabbering during a p5 tournament, fecking nuts!!

Quote from: trailer on February 22, 2023, 10:58:18 AM
There's loads of examples of footballers who weren't talented or had limited ability at underage going on to play Senior County football. Even Tyrone I think Meyler and Hampsey played very little county underage football. Ricey could be another. I have seen ordinary enough kids at 7, 8 and 9 go on become excellent players in u15 and 17 teams. They develop not just ability wise but physically as well.
I also remember loads of lads from School who you would have thought they will go on and be superstars and it just never happened. Some didn't even play senior club football. They maybe had a physical advantage at 10 or 11 that disappeared over time and their ability didn't develop. 

I agree it is hard at that young age, kids want to win and you want them to win so they're happy and they enjoy it, but there is a bigger picture and as coaches we have a responsibility to all the children no matter their ability or behaviour which is probably a bigger problem.

Hampsey was minor captain when they won an Ulster in 2012 and was full back on the All Ireland U21 winning team in 2015. Not sure about Meyler at county minor level but have seen in interviews saying he was playing for Omagh B teams at younger age groups so your broader point is true enough. I'd be pretty confident that you're not going to lose lads because you don't keep the score at u8/10/12 but you will 100% lose lads that are sat on the sidelines watching every week that barely get a kick.

Quote from: square_ball on February 22, 2023, 12:35:19 PM

Quote from: trailer on February 22, 2023, 10:58:18 AM
There's loads of examples of footballers who weren't talented or had limited ability at underage going on to play Senior County football. Even Tyrone I think Meyler and Hampsey played very little county underage football. Ricey could be another. I have seen ordinary enough kids at 7, 8 and 9 go on become excellent players in u15 and 17 teams. They develop not just ability wise but physically as well.
I also remember loads of lads from School who you would have thought they will go on and be superstars and it just never happened. Some didn't even play senior club football. They maybe had a physical advantage at 10 or 11 that disappeared over time and their ability didn't develop. 

I agree it is hard at that young age, kids want to win and you want them to win so they're happy and they enjoy it, but there is a bigger picture and as coaches we have a responsibility to all the children no matter their ability or behaviour which is probably a bigger problem.

Hampsey was minor captain when they won an Ulster in 2012 and was full back on the All Ireland U21 winning team in 2015. Not sure about Meyler at county minor level but have seen in interviews saying he was playing for Omagh B teams at younger age groups so your broader point is true enough. I'd be pretty confident that you're not going to lose lads because you don't keep the score at u8/10/12 but you will 100% lose lads that are sat on the sidelines watching every week that barely get a kick.

Maybe he didn't play MacRory - remember him mentioning something about it on the GAA social pod. Meyler was on the fringes of the St Mary's team initially as well.

So HQ have dropped the big hammer on competitive club juvenile tournaments.

Knew it was coming but I'm disappointed.

We'd a good thing going in Down at u11.5. Non competitive leagues that allow teams to develop their weaker players, and a handful of club tournaments running concurrently, to allow the more developed and competitive players to test themselves fully.

There's so many kids at 11 years old who want to push themselves and win things, and now they can't. Not in Gaelic games anyway.

Developing the weak at the expense of the strong is a muddled strategy for any sport.

The more I think about this, it just reeks of "I don't care if your Johnny doesn't get anything out of our sport, so long as my Johnny doesn't hate it".

Quote from: square_ball on February 22, 2023, 12:35:19 PM

Quote from: trailer on February 22, 2023, 10:58:18 AM
There's loads of examples of footballers who weren't talented or had limited ability at underage going on to play Senior County football. Even Tyrone I think Meyler and Hampsey played very little county underage football. Ricey could be another. I have seen ordinary enough kids at 7, 8 and 9 go on become excellent players in u15 and 17 teams. They develop not just ability wise but physically as well.
I also remember loads of lads from School who you would have thought they will go on and be superstars and it just never happened. Some didn't even play senior club football. They maybe had a physical advantage at 10 or 11 that disappeared over time and their ability didn't develop. 

I agree it is hard at that young age, kids want to win and you want them to win so they're happy and they enjoy it, but there is a bigger picture and as coaches we have a responsibility to all the children no matter their ability or behaviour which is probably a bigger problem.

Hampsey was minor captain when they won an Ulster in 2012 and was full back on the All Ireland U21 winning team in 2015. Not sure about Meyler at county minor level but have seen in interviews saying he was playing for Omagh B teams at younger age groups so your broader point is true enough. I'd be pretty confident that you're not going to lose lads because you don't keep the score at u8/10/12 but you will 100% lose lads that are sat on the sidelines watching every week that barely get a kick.

Meyler was an omagh B for the minors when he was about 15, wasn't a superstar when he was young but he wasn't the lowly player he makes out now. I remember him being on macrory teams when he was 17.

Quote from: thewobbler on May 23, 2023, 10:52:11 PM
So HQ have dropped the big hammer on competitive club juvenile tournaments.

Knew it was coming but I'm disappointed.

We'd a good thing going in Down at u11.5. Non competitive leagues that allow teams to develop their weaker players, and a handful of club tournaments running concurrently, to allow the more developed and competitive players to test themselves fully.

There's so many kids at 11 years old who want to push themselves and win things, and now they can't. Not in Gaelic games anyway.

Developing the weak at the expense of the strong is a muddled strategy for any sport.

The more I think about this, it just reeks of "I don't care if your Johnny doesn't get anything out of our sport, so long as my Johnny doesn't hate it".

Well if you define kids as "weak" and "strong" at U11 then you are already a dinosaur I'm afraid. An absolutely ridiculous thing to do for so many reasons I could fill a page with.

Go for it Itchy.

I'd be particularly interested in learning how you would run coaching sessions for 11 year old boys without regularly identifying "weaker" and "stronger" players to pair off with each other.

Quote from: Itchy on May 23, 2023, 11:07:27 PM

Quote from: thewobbler on May 23, 2023, 10:52:11 PM
So HQ have dropped the big hammer on competitive club juvenile tournaments.

Knew it was coming but I'm disappointed.

We'd a good thing going in Down at u11.5. Non competitive leagues that allow teams to develop their weaker players, and a handful of club tournaments running concurrently, to allow the more developed and competitive players to test themselves fully.

There's so many kids at 11 years old who want to push themselves and win things, and now they can't. Not in Gaelic games anyway.

Developing the weak at the expense of the strong is a muddled strategy for any sport.

The more I think about this, it just reeks of "I don't care if your Johnny doesn't get anything out of our sport, so long as my Johnny doesn't hate it".

Well if you define kids as "weak" and "strong" at U11 then you are already a dinosaur I'm afraid. An absolutely ridiculous thing to do for so many reasons I could fill a page with.

Sounds like the 11+!!

Not a fan of tournaments myself at that age, u12 and up is soon enough imo.
I wonder does this same rule apply to primary schools?
They regularly play in tournaments for cups. Whilst I do t agree, it needs to be consistent across the age levels.

Quote from: tbrick18 on May 23, 2023, 11:58:29 PM
Not a fan of tournaments myself at that age, u12 and up is soon enough imo.
I wonder does this same rule apply to primary schools?
They regularly play in tournaments for cups. Whilst I do t agree, it needs to be consistent across the age levels.

I agree.

Issue is how will the GAA police it?

I find the underage girls coaching is a good environment for bringing a whole team of varied abilities along. There's definitely more testosterone flying around with underage boys coaching and a lot of giving out/whinging by coaches on the sideline. Way more constant shouting from the sidelines than I remember when I was underage. Sometimes I lstop any shouting, even encouragement for five minutes to see how they fair out and they seem to bring their own intensity for that period.  Every game is competitive by nature but we should avoid parading youth teams as competition winners, blitz winners-it's no good. There are some cracking youth players who need to know how to use their team mates, whose team mates need to feel like they are part of the team, no matter what the ability. It's amazing what a small spark of confidence can grow into.  Is it true that they don't keep the score in underage italian soccer?

I don't like the new ruling. There seems to be a thought that clubs around the country are alienating players and not giving everyone a fair crack. In my experience as a coach the last few years that's not the case.

In Down we have a series of go games dates set out with a variety of clubs every 2-3 weeks from April to September.

We generally spread our players across 2 teams to ensure a degree of competitiveness across the board. As a result our stronger players rarely get to play together all at the same time.

The odd tournament where teams can truly test themselves against other clubs is only good for the players in my opinion. The young ones love it and it brings out that bit extra in them.

There seems to be more effort into catering for the weaker player at the expense of the stronger players.

I just don't buy into there being no place for competition at all. If can be beneficial.

I think it is more important to have players playing at their level and developing them there.
At the youngest age there are huge disparities in the ability levels for various reasons.
There are ways and means to cater for all and the answer isn't to ban competition.

Jesus give players a chance at winning something. Life is shit, life is tough there are winners and losers. This pansy attitude won't get kids too far.

Quote from: Armagh18 on May 24, 2023, 12:41:53 AM
Jesus give players a chance at winning something. Life is shit, life is tough there are winners and losers. This pansy attitude won't get kids too far.

There are thousands of kids who never played any competitive sport who do well enough in life.

I take it, no more Newry Mitchells U12 National competition. Which was excellent, very well run. The odd competition at U12 level is certainly no harm, even at U10. Probably lose more lads to other sports now.

I think u12 is a good age to start for winning/losing - End of the day it's life experience and youngsters these days hate losing look at them playing other sports or video games (Fortnite/FIFA etc) but they pick up the controller and get on with the next game if they lose same they will do in Football. If they enjoy the activity they will keep coming back.

Issue is parents/coaches who think winning is everything and will curse a ref out, parents rowing with other parents at matches or shout at young players when they do something wrong. . I've had to turn round in the sideline and parent parents along the sideline and tell them to catch themselves on and what example are they setting - they usually shut up out of embarrassment getting told off.

Coached teams from u10s/u11s to minors and competitions in training everyone wants to win and they always had fun in them, penalty comps/free taking, sprints/shooting - but that toxicity that's along the sideline at senior games trickles down through the age groups and what child is going to want to keep playing if they keep getting shouted at. 

Quote from: Mourne Red on May 24, 2023, 08:23:01 AM
I think u12 is a good age to start for winning/losing - End of the day it's life experience and youngsters these days hate losing look at them playing other sports or video games (Fortnite/FIFA etc) but they pick up the controller and get on with the next game if they lose same they will do in Football. If they enjoy the activity they will keep coming back.

Issue is parents/coaches who think winning is everything and will curse a ref out, parents rowing with other parents at matches or shout at young players when they do something wrong. . I've had to turn round in the sideline and parent parents along the sideline and tell them to catch themselves on and what example are they setting - they usually shut up out of embarrassment getting told off.

Coached teams from u10s/u11s to minors and competitions in training everyone wants to win and they always had fun in them, penalty comps/free taking, sprints/shooting - but that toxicity that's along the sideline at senior games trickles down through the age groups and what child is going to want to keep playing if they keep getting shouted at.

So the issue is the parents rather than the children?

That's a fair comment.

Why  not have a silent sideline?  That might work.

We've been running the May day tournament for decades at our club, great event for P5's, teams from all over the country and even American teams have taken part in it. This year was the first time we had to follow the new guidelines and while we had full attendances I'd say it will be of less prestige given how the go-games format is done.

It may change some managers approach to 'competitions' in the future, more emphasis on getting competitive games with clubs than entering tournaments

I suppose I'm old school and don't see personally anything wrong with winning and losing, thats just me, in my day you didn't have many parents turning up at undrerage games to be fair, not to the extent it is now, so screaming parents at games is a new thing

Quote from: Minus15 on May 24, 2023, 12:23:29 AM
I don't like the new ruling. There seems to be a thought that clubs around the country are alienating players and not giving everyone a fair crack. In my experience as a coach the last few years that's not the case.

In Down we have a series of go games dates set out with a variety of clubs every 2-3 weeks from April to September.

We generally spread our players across 2 teams to ensure a degree of competitiveness across the board. As a result our stronger players rarely get to play together all at the same time.

The odd tournament where teams can truly test themselves against other clubs is only good for the players in my opinion. The young ones love it and it brings out that bit extra in them.

There seems to be more effort into catering for the weaker player at the expense of the stronger players.

I just don't buy into there being no place for competition at all. If can be beneficial.

I think it is more important to have players playing at their level and developing them there.
At the youngest age there are huge disparities in the ability levels for various reasons.
There are ways and means to cater for all and the answer isn't to ban competition.

Well argued point there.  It's a trcky one.

Will lads/lassies go to other sports moreso now?

Kids are competitive regardless.  Even if you don't keep the score, they do! They'll tell you at the end who's winning.

At, say U12, the better developed players moving up a grade to get competitive games.

As I said before, Go Games are usually played 12-15 times a year excluding the one off games with other clubs during the season also. Say in total 50 games (Go Games with maybe 4 games each day).  That's all mixed ability and is great for development.

The odd competition thrown in towards the end of the year doesn't do much harm in my opinion. Gives clubs an idea of where they're at in comparsion to other teams. As the ratio of Go Games to tournaments is fine.

Nothing wrong with competition, the kids aren't stupid.  The problem is the kid who spends most of his/her underage career on the bench because the coach wants to win every game.  The kid never feels fully part of it and never develops as much as they could have.  You can only really solve that if the club creates a culture to include them.  They could grow up to be your next club Secretary, or be a late developer who kicks the winner in a minor final, but the vast majority of coaches only see todays game and the need to win it - meanwhile the kid becomes disillusioned and off they go, or worse still, stay!

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 24, 2023, 08:40:30 AM
We've been running the May day tournament for decades at our club, great event for P5's, teams from all over the country and even American teams have taken part in it. This year was the first time we had to follow the new guidelines and while we had full attendances I'd say it will be of less prestige given how the go-games format is done.

It may change some managers approach to 'competitions' in the future, more emphasis on getting competitive games with clubs than entering tournaments

I suppose I'm old school and don't see personally anything wrong with winning and losing, thats just me, in my day you didn't have many parents turning up at undrerage games to be fair, not to the extent it is now, so screaming parents at games is a new thing

As far as I know there was actually a couple of teams didn't turn up to your May Day tournament, when they heard it was "non competitive". (Even though all the refs were keeping score) and all the kids were straight over to them at the end of the game to ask the score  :P

Quote from: Saffrongael on May 24, 2023, 09:18:51 AM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 24, 2023, 08:40:30 AM
We've been running the May day tournament for decades at our club, great event for P5's, teams from all over the country and even American teams have taken part in it. This year was the first time we had to follow the new guidelines and while we had full attendances I'd say it will be of less prestige given how the go-games format is done.

It may change some managers approach to 'competitions' in the future, more emphasis on getting competitive games with clubs than entering tournaments

I suppose I'm old school and don't see personally anything wrong with winning and losing, thats just me, in my day you didn't have many parents turning up at undrerage games to be fair, not to the extent it is now, so screaming parents at games is a new thing

As far as I know there was actually a couple of teams didn't turn up to your May Day tournament, when they heard it was "non competitive". (Even though all the refs were keeping score) and all the kids were straight over to them at the end of the game to ask the score  :P

I have no problem with the winning or losing aspect but I have a major problem with kids not getting playing. I help out with underage teams and last week we played an U11 Go game against a local club. We only had 13 boys so agreed 12 aside with 1 sub which we alternated across the 3 thirds so everyone got roughly the same time on the pitch.

We played a club who had 16 players so therefore had 4 subs. They were much bigger and stronger than us as it was a very one sided game. They were hammering us by about 10 goals but only gave 1 of their subs a run at the end. I thought this was disgraceful so asked their coach why they did that. He replied that A. It was none of my business and I should take my beating and B. Said his subs didn't really want to play anyway.

Our club takes a very different approach and we'd be known for having a good conveyour belt in bringing players to senior level and consistently producing good players who were not so good at u11/13 etc. I believe we have the right approach and need to put faith in every player to give them every opportunity to excel.

The club mentioned above do not have a good record in retaining players. They lose a lot to soccer and struggle to field at senior and retaining players is a massive issue for them. I think the above example illustrates why they have that problem.

Is the GAA about inclusion or elitism? Probably the answer is somewhere in the middle and a line must be drawn somewhere. I think competitive football should not start until at least U12. Why? Well because its a barrier to keeping quite a lot of kids playing if they are seen as the weak link that loses games and its not just coaches, its the kids themselves and its parents on the sideline. What's the bloody rush, by the time the kids are 13/14/15 they will be playing competitive games so frequently they'll be begging for a break.
A lot here blaming coaches but I suspect that its your own little Johnny's that you're worried about and maybe you are living your past failures as players through them and you can't wait to see them lift that cup? One guy defining kids at U11 by being weak and strong - unbelievable stuff.

Quote from: Minus15 on May 24, 2023, 12:23:29 AM
I don't like the new ruling. There seems to be a thought that clubs around the country are alienating players and not giving everyone a fair crack. In my experience as a coach the last few years that's not the case.

In Down we have a series of go games dates set out with a variety of clubs every 2-3 weeks from April to September.

We generally spread our players across 2 teams to ensure a degree of competitiveness across the board. As a result our stronger players rarely get to play together all at the same time.

The odd tournament where teams can truly test themselves against other clubs is only good for the players in my opinion. The young ones love it and it brings out that bit extra in them.

There seems to be more effort into catering for the weaker player at the expense of the stronger players.

I just don't buy into there being no place for competition at all. If can be beneficial.

I think it is more important to have players playing at their level and developing them there.
At the youngest age there are huge disparities in the ability levels for various reasons.
There are ways and means to cater for all and the answer isn't to ban competition.

I dont believe this is a new ruling, I think it has been in place for some time but clubs have just ignored it.
Looks like GAA is going to clamp down on implementation. How they do that, I don't know.

Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2023, 09:56:38 AM
Is the GAA about inclusion or elitism? Probably the answer is somewhere in the middle and a line must be drawn somewhere. I think competitive football should not start until at least U12. Why? Well because its a barrier to keeping quite a lot of kids playing if they are seen as the weak link that loses games and its not just coaches, its the kids themselves and its parents on the sideline. What's the bloody rush, by the time the kids are 13/14/15 they will be playing competitive games so frequently they'll be begging for a break.
A lot here blaming coaches but I suspect that its your own little Johnny's that you're worried about and maybe you are living your past failures as players through them and you can't wait to see them lift that cup? One guy defining kids at U11 by being weak and strong - unbelievable stuff.

I'll ask again Itchy, for I'm all ears:

I'd be particularly interested in learning how you would run coaching sessions for 11 year old boys without regularly identifying "weaker" and "stronger" players to pair off with each other.

Quote from: Mourne Red on May 24, 2023, 08:23:01 AM
I think u12 is a good age to start for winning/losing - End of the day it's life experience and youngsters these days hate losing look at them playing other sports or video games (Fortnite/FIFA etc) but they pick up the controller and get on with the next game if they lose same they will do in Football. If they enjoy the activity they will keep coming back.

Issue is parents/coaches who think winning is everything and will curse a ref out, parents rowing with other parents at matches or shout at young players when they do something wrong. . I've had to turn round in the sideline and parent parents along the sideline and tell them to catch themselves on and what example are they setting - they usually shut up out of embarrassment getting told off.

Coached teams from u10s/u11s to minors and competitions in training everyone wants to win and they always had fun in them, penalty comps/free taking, sprints/shooting - but that toxicity that's along the sideline at senior games trickles down through the age groups and what child is going to want to keep playing if they keep getting shouted at.

Yeah that's the issue alright.
I suppose if you look at it in that light, perhaps its an attempt to protect the kids from that level of critique until they are a little older.
Main issue is some coaches. I'm one of 5 coaches of our u10.5 team. One of the coaches wants to win tournaments and only wants to take stronger players. The rest of us want to improve the kids and make sure they all get as much football as possible and enjoy it. Said coach wants those things too but also only wants to play the strongest team every day. It's a constant cause of friction between coaches and also with parents, who at this particular age group do all seem content if everyone is getting a fair crack at it.
This coach is a good fella, just ultra competitive himself which tends to mean he's one of those guys at go-games/tournaments complaining to refs.
It's really difficult to get the right balance at those underage teams, but as said on here by others, kids all develop at different rates in terms of growth, skills and ability to take instruction. None should be pigeon-holed into a position, tagged as the next star or be written off at 10 years of age and unfortunately I think tournaments contribute to that at that age.
12 and up for tournaments is more than enough in my mind. They still have plenty of football before senior level when a lot will drop off if they dont make it by then.

Quote from: tbrick18 on May 24, 2023, 09:58:18 AM
I dont believe this is a new ruling, I think it has been in place for some time but clubs have just ignored it.
Looks like GAA is going to clamp down on implementation. How they do that, I don't know.

I would imagine clubs will just ignore it and take the slap on the wrist if/when it comes. There'll just be fewer facebook posts etc. from the clubs hosting and winning them.

Quote from: thewobbler on May 24, 2023, 10:01:37 AM

Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2023, 09:56:38 AM
Is the GAA about inclusion or elitism? Probably the answer is somewhere in the middle and a line must be drawn somewhere. I think competitive football should not start until at least U12. Why? Well because its a barrier to keeping quite a lot of kids playing if they are seen as the weak link that loses games and its not just coaches, its the kids themselves and its parents on the sideline. What's the bloody rush, by the time the kids are 13/14/15 they will be playing competitive games so frequently they'll be begging for a break.
A lot here blaming coaches but I suspect that its your own little Johnny's that you're worried about and maybe you are living your past failures as players through them and you can't wait to see them lift that cup? One guy defining kids at U11 by being weak and strong - unbelievable stuff.

I'll ask again Itchy, for I'm all ears:

I'd be particularly interested in learning how you would run coaching sessions for 11 year old boys without regularly identifying "weaker" and "stronger" players to pair off with each other.

If a strong player is playing with a weaker player, the weak player won't get a look in, the stronger player wont pass to him. You can encourage the strong lad to pass, he just wont. At go games we always had stronger teams & weaker teams, worked well. Everybody needs to get as equal time as possible playing. Its about development & weaker players wont develop playing with much stronger players. Better playing at a level they are comfortable at. Its always great to see a weaker player, staying at it & moving up to play with the stronger players, because he was developed properly.

There are so many perspectives about this in GAA clubs, in online forums, and on social media. It's hardly the end of the world, though, to have to wait until u13 to play competitive football. Even though your coach didn't win the coveted St. Galls May Day trophy, he can wait for the next prestigious competition. :D

Our primary school tournaments are competitive, and we have a competitive league and a non-competitive league that run on the same day. We openly call it our competitive team and our development team. It works very well and every child that wants a game of football in P6 and 7 can go! There has to be some element of competition involved as children love competition from they're no age! They'll even race to the front of the dinner line if it means they win! A middle ground and common-sense approach is the best scenario. For underage games up to maybe u14 I would like a competitive half/quarter/third or whathever, of football and then a half where the score doesn't count and everyone can get a go!

As someone said earlier, it's the parents who are the problem 99% of the time! I have friends who turn into different people when it involves their own kids!! Usually becoming the people they once complained about themselves!

My views on this have changed recently. I have coached underage teams and always took the view that every child must get equal time and in a non competitive scenario would actually try to give weaker players more time as they needed it more.
In competitive scenarios everyone got the same time regardless. Kids did get frustrated when you took a player off if the game was in the balance and that affected the game.

But I think we need a pathway for those more talented and competitive kids. How that works I am not sure. In larger clubs were poss it is better to stream by ability and challenge those kids, soccer do this. In smaller clubs it difficult.
But one real frustrating outcome was that many weaker players were given loads of game time they ended up quitting anyway once they turned 10, 11 or 12. From an early age it was clear to all and sundry that GAA wasn't for them, they couldn't get ball, didn't know what to do with it when they did, got dispossessed, stood around, etc.
But my own admission I have seen some player really leap forward and become brilliant key players who you certainly wouldn't have thought would do that.

So yeah lots of contradictions in that and like I say I don't really know where I stand on the whole thing, but perhaps on balance there does need to be some competitive challenge run alongside the non competitive games.

Being involved in a small club where we are lucky to get over 10/12 players in the go games blitzes its obviously easier to get everyone equal game time as we are just grateful to have the numbers to be able to field. When I hear of local clubs having upwards of 30 and maybe even more I don't know what the answer is.

We have been invited to a 9 a side tournament later this year and the limit on players is 15 so for a club with maybe for example 20 at that age group how you make those calls and leave lads at home is definitely not one I'd like to be making.

For what its worth I think the balance is right in Tyrone. Go games every 3 weeks or so with clubs arranging plenty of friendly matches in between those and training. And then at the end of the year there does seem be plenty of competitive tournaments where lads could fight it out to win something. Its definitely not a black and white issue.

Quote from: JimStynes on May 24, 2023, 11:00:27 AM
Our primary school tournaments are competitive, and we have a competitive league and a non-competitive league that run on the same day. We openly call it our competitive team and our development team. It works very well and every child that wants a game of football in P6 and 7 can go! There has to be some element of competition involved as children love competition from they're no age! They'll even race to the front of the dinner line if it means they win! A middle ground and common-sense approach is the best scenario. For underage games up to maybe u14 I would like a competitive half/quarter/third or whathever, of football and then a half where the score doesn't count and everyone can get a go!

As someone said earlier, it's the parents who are the problem 99% of the time! I have friends who turn into different people when it involves their own kids!! Usually becoming the people they once complained about themselves!

This. Parents should be f**king banned from Underage games. I have coached for a few years but as soon as my own kids are out of youth I am done with it and it is solely down to the parents. At U12.5 We had a policy that every player got at least a half. That did mean that better players got more game time as they usually stay on for the whole match. Looking back that might have been unfair as it meant the same players tended to get swapped out for each other  but we decided it would be too difficult to try to give the same game time for everyone and we wanted to avoid the situation where we had 4-5 weaker players coming on en masse near the end, significantly weakening the team and frustrating the rest of the players.

on one memorable evening before the game I had one parent complaining about the lack of game time her u12.5 son was getting   and threatening to take her son to a different club. I wouldnt have minded except she was going to take him to a larger club. ::) To top it off, I went for a pint in the clubrooms afterwards with a couple of mates who have sons in the team and they were griping about us not playing our strongest team. They got a pretty colourful response on it. 

The way the underage tournaments in Derry are handled is an interesting concept.

Each Club enters two teams and it is the combined scored of the two teams 1 & 2 which determines the overall result.

Takes away from that A & B concept of stronger and weaker players as each and every player can play their part.

However that being said it is still ruined for the vast majority by the odd eejit coach or parent roaring and shouting. The kids are never the issue, it is always those that are along the side line that cause the bother.

The way it was, was fine!! Have none competitive go games as a standard for u12, where all players get equal time. But then have a couple of blitzs to run off where there is competition for places. The following year it's going to be competitive games so why not blood them in at u12 while keeping the inclusive nature of go games.

But go games need to be none competitive. No if, buts about it. Equal times on pitch for all kids.

How do rugby and soccer manage game time and deal with strong/weaker players it's not something that you hear parents in those sports giving out about?

Quote from: Cavan19 on May 24, 2023, 12:33:05 PM
How do rugby and soccer manage game time and deal with strong/weaker players it's not something that you hear parents in those sports giving out about?

In my experience soccer is considerably worse, less playing time and just playing the strongest team as long as they can get away with, with a few token minutes at the end maybe for subs

Too many coaches think they are Klopp or Guardiola

Both my daughters played hockey for school and a club, been to the vast majority of the games and not a peep either school or club games I watched

Quote from: TabClear on May 24, 2023, 12:03:28 PM

Quote from: JimStynes on May 24, 2023, 11:00:27 AM
Our primary school tournaments are competitive, and we have a competitive league and a non-competitive league that run on the same day. We openly call it our competitive team and our development team. It works very well and every child that wants a game of football in P6 and 7 can go! There has to be some element of competition involved as children love competition from they're no age! They'll even race to the front of the dinner line if it means they win! A middle ground and common-sense approach is the best scenario. For underage games up to maybe u14 I would like a competitive half/quarter/third or whathever, of football and then a half where the score doesn't count and everyone can get a go!

As someone said earlier, it's the parents who are the problem 99% of the time! I have friends who turn into different people when it involves their own kids!! Usually becoming the people they once complained about themselves!

This. Parents should be f**king banned from Underage games. I have coached for a few years but as soon as my own kids are out of youth I am done with it and it is solely down to the parents. At U12.5 We had a policy that every player got at least a half. That did mean that better players got more game time as they usually stay on for the whole match. Looking back that might have been unfair as it meant the same players tended to get swapped out for each other  but we decided it would be too difficult to try to give the same game time for everyone and we wanted to avoid the situation where we had 4-5 weaker players coming on en masse near the end, significantly weakening the team and frustrating the rest of the players.

on one memorable evening before the game I had one parent complaining about the lack of game time her u12.5 son was getting   and threatening to take her son to a different club. I wouldnt have minded except she was going to take him to a larger club. ::) To top it off, I went for a pint in the clubrooms afterwards with a couple of mates who have sons in the team and they were griping about us not playing our strongest team. They got a pretty colourful response on it.

I'm lucky and never had this experience with parents to be honest. But I have heard this plenty of times. Again I always made sure I everyone got equal game time. Heard plenty from the young fella about it though. So you can't win.

Quote from: Saffrongael on May 24, 2023, 01:03:35 PM

Quote from: Cavan19 on May 24, 2023, 12:33:05 PM
How do rugby and soccer manage game time and deal with strong/weaker players it's not something that you hear parents in those sports giving out about?

In my experience soccer is considerably worse, less playing time and just playing the strongest team as long as they can get away with, with a few token minutes at the end maybe for subs

Too many coaches think they are Klopp or Guardiola

In soccer where I am Soccer competitive starts at U12 and everything below that is fun orientated blitzs without scores being kept. It is the same with GAA now, this rule coming out is for the renegades with are living in the 1980s I think.

Quote from: trailer on May 24, 2023, 01:23:05 PM

Quote from: TabClear on May 24, 2023, 12:03:28 PM

Quote from: JimStynes on May 24, 2023, 11:00:27 AM
Our primary school tournaments are competitive, and we have a competitive league and a non-competitive league that run on the same day. We openly call it our competitive team and our development team. It works very well and every child that wants a game of football in P6 and 7 can go! There has to be some element of competition involved as children love competition from they're no age! They'll even race to the front of the dinner line if it means they win! A middle ground and common-sense approach is the best scenario. For underage games up to maybe u14 I would like a competitive half/quarter/third or whathever, of football and then a half where the score doesn't count and everyone can get a go!

As someone said earlier, it's the parents who are the problem 99% of the time! I have friends who turn into different people when it involves their own kids!! Usually becoming the people they once complained about themselves!

This. Parents should be f**king banned from Underage games. I have coached for a few years but as soon as my own kids are out of youth I am done with it and it is solely down to the parents. At U12.5 We had a policy that every player got at least a half. That did mean that better players got more game time as they usually stay on for the whole match. Looking back that might have been unfair as it meant the same players tended to get swapped out for each other  but we decided it would be too difficult to try to give the same game time for everyone and we wanted to avoid the situation where we had 4-5 weaker players coming on en masse near the end, significantly weakening the team and frustrating the rest of the players.

on one memorable evening before the game I had one parent complaining about the lack of game time her u12.5 son was getting   and threatening to take her son to a different club. I wouldnt have minded except she was going to take him to a larger club. ::) To top it off, I went for a pint in the clubrooms afterwards with a couple of mates who have sons in the team and they were griping about us not playing our strongest team. They got a pretty colourful response on it.

I'm lucky and never had this experience with parents to be honest. But I have heard this plenty of times. Again I always made sure I everyone got equal game time. Heard plenty from the young fella about it though. So you can't win.

It's a fine line. Keeping all kids interested and giving them a love for the game. I'm with an U10s and we try to play all the kids. If we have more we maybe give them a kid for each half. Or I we are low we might put a younger sibling in the goal. Kids always want to know who wins but it's getting them active. The best will shine through. But the others get a sense of team and the club. Keeping them involved in gaa is the biggest result be it a fan or club member . I find soccer really tough on kids. My own lad couldn't even get into a club. Rugby I've no experience off.

Yeah I would agree snoopdog, and I hear people keep saying now "they might be your next secretary" but even if they don't who cares ? It's about letting them be part of a team environment, feeling they belong & being part of something for that number of years, even if they aren't the best & if they decide when they are older, for various reasons usually, it isn't for them it's not the end of the world

I know my young fella loves it & has made friends he wouldn't have normally

Quote from: snoopdog on May 24, 2023, 01:35:38 PM

Quote from: trailer on May 24, 2023, 01:23:05 PM

Quote from: TabClear on May 24, 2023, 12:03:28 PM

Quote from: JimStynes on May 24, 2023, 11:00:27 AM
Our primary school tournaments are competitive, and we have a competitive league and a non-competitive league that run on the same day. We openly call it our competitive team and our development team. It works very well and every child that wants a game of football in P6 and 7 can go! There has to be some element of competition involved as children love competition from they're no age! They'll even race to the front of the dinner line if it means they win! A middle ground and common-sense approach is the best scenario. For underage games up to maybe u14 I would like a competitive half/quarter/third or whathever, of football and then a half where the score doesn't count and everyone can get a go!

As someone said earlier, it's the parents who are the problem 99% of the time! I have friends who turn into different people when it involves their own kids!! Usually becoming the people they once complained about themselves!

This. Parents should be f**king banned from Underage games. I have coached for a few years but as soon as my own kids are out of youth I am done with it and it is solely down to the parents. At U12.5 We had a policy that every player got at least a half. That did mean that better players got more game time as they usually stay on for the whole match. Looking back that might have been unfair as it meant the same players tended to get swapped out for each other  but we decided it would be too difficult to try to give the same game time for everyone and we wanted to avoid the situation where we had 4-5 weaker players coming on en masse near the end, significantly weakening the team and frustrating the rest of the players.

on one memorable evening before the game I had one parent complaining about the lack of game time her u12.5 son was getting   and threatening to take her son to a different club. I wouldnt have minded except she was going to take him to a larger club. ::) To top it off, I went for a pint in the clubrooms afterwards with a couple of mates who have sons in the team and they were griping about us not playing our strongest team. They got a pretty colourful response on it.

I'm lucky and never had this experience with parents to be honest. But I have heard this plenty of times. Again I always made sure I everyone got equal game time. Heard plenty from the young fella about it though. So you can't win.

It's a fine line. Keeping all kids interested and giving them a love for the game. I'm with an U10s and we try to play all the kids. If we have more we maybe give them a kid for each half. Or I we are low we might put a younger sibling in the goal. Kids always want to know who wins but it's getting them active. The best will shine through. But the others get a sense of team and the club. Keeping them involved in gaa is the biggest result be it a fan or club member . I find soccer really tough on kids. My own lad couldn't even get into a club. Rugby I've no experience off.

Rugby I think has an issue attracting and keeping kids. Heard participation numbers are down. But no first hand knowledge.

Soccer is all small sided games until 10 or 11 then it's gung go elite. Clubs poaching each others best players etc. If you don't run a good squad you can get humped 7 or 8 nil quite quickly and your best end up leaving. It's a real mess tbh.

Quote from: trailer on May 24, 2023, 01:44:11 PM

Quote from: snoopdog on May 24, 2023, 01:35:38 PM

Quote from: trailer on May 24, 2023, 01:23:05 PM

Quote from: TabClear on May 24, 2023, 12:03:28 PM

Quote from: JimStynes on May 24, 2023, 11:00:27 AM
Our primary school tournaments are competitive, and we have a competitive league and a non-competitive league that run on the same day. We openly call it our competitive team and our development team. It works very well and every child that wants a game of football in P6 and 7 can go! There has to be some element of competition involved as children love competition from they're no age! They'll even race to the front of the dinner line if it means they win! A middle ground and common-sense approach is the best scenario. For underage games up to maybe u14 I would like a competitive half/quarter/third or whathever, of football and then a half where the score doesn't count and everyone can get a go!

As someone said earlier, it's the parents who are the problem 99% of the time! I have friends who turn into different people when it involves their own kids!! Usually becoming the people they once complained about themselves!

This. Parents should be f**king banned from Underage games. I have coached for a few years but as soon as my own kids are out of youth I am done with it and it is solely down to the parents. At U12.5 We had a policy that every player got at least a half. That did mean that better players got more game time as they usually stay on for the whole match. Looking back that might have been unfair as it meant the same players tended to get swapped out for each other  but we decided it would be too difficult to try to give the same game time for everyone and we wanted to avoid the situation where we had 4-5 weaker players coming on en masse near the end, significantly weakening the team and frustrating the rest of the players.

on one memorable evening before the game I had one parent complaining about the lack of game time her u12.5 son was getting   and threatening to take her son to a different club. I wouldnt have minded except she was going to take him to a larger club. ::) To top it off, I went for a pint in the clubrooms afterwards with a couple of mates who have sons in the team and they were griping about us not playing our strongest team. They got a pretty colourful response on it.

I'm lucky and never had this experience with parents to be honest. But I have heard this plenty of times. Again I always made sure I everyone got equal game time. Heard plenty from the young fella about it though. So you can't win.

It's a fine line. Keeping all kids interested and giving them a love for the game. I'm with an U10s and we try to play all the kids. If we have more we maybe give them a kid for each half. Or I we are low we might put a younger sibling in the goal. Kids always want to know who wins but it's getting them active. The best will shine through. But the others get a sense of team and the club. Keeping them involved in gaa is the biggest result be it a fan or club member . I find soccer really tough on kids. My own lad couldn't even get into a club. Rugby I've no experience off.

Rugby I think has an issue attracting and keeping kids. Heard participation numbers are down. But no first hand knowledge.

Soccer is all small sided games until 10 or 11 then it's gung go elite. Clubs poaching each others best players etc. If you don't run a good squad you can get humped 7 or 8 nil quite quickly and your best end up leaving. It's a real mess tbh.

Rugbys problem is the dangers it possesses once it gets into full contact. You can have kids 6 ft tall in U15s smashing up small kids. Hence the fall out. Plus the fact its a game with little skill required which is ideal for big awkward mullackers to smash into each other. I wouldnt let my kids near it.

Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2023, 02:03:39 PM

Quote from: trailer on May 24, 2023, 01:44:11 PM

Quote from: snoopdog on May 24, 2023, 01:35:38 PM

Quote from: trailer on May 24, 2023, 01:23:05 PM

Quote from: TabClear on May 24, 2023, 12:03:28 PM

Quote from: JimStynes on May 24, 2023, 11:00:27 AM
Our primary school tournaments are competitive, and we have a competitive league and a non-competitive league that run on the same day. We openly call it our competitive team and our development team. It works very well and every child that wants a game of football in P6 and 7 can go! There has to be some element of competition involved as children love competition from they're no age! They'll even race to the front of the dinner line if it means they win! A middle ground and common-sense approach is the best scenario. For underage games up to maybe u14 I would like a competitive half/quarter/third or whathever, of football and then a half where the score doesn't count and everyone can get a go!

As someone said earlier, it's the parents who are the problem 99% of the time! I have friends who turn into different people when it involves their own kids!! Usually becoming the people they once complained about themselves!

This. Parents should be f**king banned from Underage games. I have coached for a few years but as soon as my own kids are out of youth I am done with it and it is solely down to the parents. At U12.5 We had a policy that every player got at least a half. That did mean that better players got more game time as they usually stay on for the whole match. Looking back that might have been unfair as it meant the same players tended to get swapped out for each other  but we decided it would be too difficult to try to give the same game time for everyone and we wanted to avoid the situation where we had 4-5 weaker players coming on en masse near the end, significantly weakening the team and frustrating the rest of the players.

on one memorable evening before the game I had one parent complaining about the lack of game time her u12.5 son was getting   and threatening to take her son to a different club. I wouldnt have minded except she was going to take him to a larger club. ::) To top it off, I went for a pint in the clubrooms afterwards with a couple of mates who have sons in the team and they were griping about us not playing our strongest team. They got a pretty colourful response on it.

I'm lucky and never had this experience with parents to be honest. But I have heard this plenty of times. Again I always made sure I everyone got equal game time. Heard plenty from the young fella about it though. So you can't win.

It's a fine line. Keeping all kids interested and giving them a love for the game. I'm with an U10s and we try to play all the kids. If we have more we maybe give them a kid for each half. Or I we are low we might put a younger sibling in the goal. Kids always want to know who wins but it's getting them active. The best will shine through. But the others get a sense of team and the club. Keeping them involved in gaa is the biggest result be it a fan or club member . I find soccer really tough on kids. My own lad couldn't even get into a club. Rugby I've no experience off.

Rugby I think has an issue attracting and keeping kids. Heard participation numbers are down. But no first hand knowledge.

Soccer is all small sided games until 10 or 11 then it's gung go elite. Clubs poaching each others best players etc. If you don't run a good squad you can get humped 7 or 8 nil quite quickly and your best end up leaving. It's a real mess tbh.

Rugbys problem is the dangers it possesses once it gets into full contact. You can have kids 6 ft tall in U15s smashing up small kids. Hence the fall out. Plus the fact its a game with little skill required which is ideal for big awkward mullackers to smash into each other. I wouldnt let my kids near it.

That's the danger with rugby and the way it's going.

Although you could say similar about gaelic with lads in the gym and all power and strength and again people would say there's little skill in gaelic.

Quote from: marty34 on May 24, 2023, 03:29:31 PM

Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2023, 02:03:39 PM

Quote from: trailer on May 24, 2023, 01:44:11 PM

Quote from: snoopdog on May 24, 2023, 01:35:38 PM

Quote from: trailer on May 24, 2023, 01:23:05 PM

Quote from: TabClear on May 24, 2023, 12:03:28 PM

Quote from: JimStynes on May 24, 2023, 11:00:27 AM
Our primary school tournaments are competitive, and we have a competitive league and a non-competitive league that run on the same day. We openly call it our competitive team and our development team. It works very well and every child that wants a game of football in P6 and 7 can go! There has to be some element of competition involved as children love competition from they're no age! They'll even race to the front of the dinner line if it means they win! A middle ground and common-sense approach is the best scenario. For underage games up to maybe u14 I would like a competitive half/quarter/third or whathever, of football and then a half where the score doesn't count and everyone can get a go!

As someone said earlier, it's the parents who are the problem 99% of the time! I have friends who turn into different people when it involves their own kids!! Usually becoming the people they once complained about themselves!

This. Parents should be f**king banned from Underage games. I have coached for a few years but as soon as my own kids are out of youth I am done with it and it is solely down to the parents. At U12.5 We had a policy that every player got at least a half. That did mean that better players got more game time as they usually stay on for the whole match. Looking back that might have been unfair as it meant the same players tended to get swapped out for each other  but we decided it would be too difficult to try to give the same game time for everyone and we wanted to avoid the situation where we had 4-5 weaker players coming on en masse near the end, significantly weakening the team and frustrating the rest of the players.

on one memorable evening before the game I had one parent complaining about the lack of game time her u12.5 son was getting   and threatening to take her son to a different club. I wouldnt have minded except she was going to take him to a larger club. ::) To top it off, I went for a pint in the clubrooms afterwards with a couple of mates who have sons in the team and they were griping about us not playing our strongest team. They got a pretty colourful response on it.

I'm lucky and never had this experience with parents to be honest. But I have heard this plenty of times. Again I always made sure I everyone got equal game time. Heard plenty from the young fella about it though. So you can't win.

It's a fine line. Keeping all kids interested and giving them a love for the game. I'm with an U10s and we try to play all the kids. If we have more we maybe give them a kid for each half. Or I we are low we might put a younger sibling in the goal. Kids always want to know who wins but it's getting them active. The best will shine through. But the others get a sense of team and the club. Keeping them involved in gaa is the biggest result be it a fan or club member . I find soccer really tough on kids. My own lad couldn't even get into a club. Rugby I've no experience off.

Rugby I think has an issue attracting and keeping kids. Heard participation numbers are down. But no first hand knowledge.

Soccer is all small sided games until 10 or 11 then it's gung go elite. Clubs poaching each others best players etc. If you don't run a good squad you can get humped 7 or 8 nil quite quickly and your best end up leaving. It's a real mess tbh.

Rugbys problem is the dangers it possesses once it gets into full contact. You can have kids 6 ft tall in U15s smashing up small kids. Hence the fall out. Plus the fact its a game with little skill required which is ideal for big awkward mullackers to smash into each other. I wouldnt let my kids near it.

That's the danger with rugby and the way it's going.

Although you could say similar about gaelic with lads in the gym and all power and strength and again people would say there's little skill in gaelic.

Rugby in Australia/New Zealand its weight groups not Age groups they put the kids in - Was proposed I believe in England and they voted against it

Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2023, 02:03:39 PM

Quote from: trailer on May 24, 2023, 01:44:11 PM

Quote from: snoopdog on May 24, 2023, 01:35:38 PM

Quote from: trailer on May 24, 2023, 01:23:05 PM

Quote from: TabClear on May 24, 2023, 12:03:28 PM

Quote from: JimStynes on May 24, 2023, 11:00:27 AM
Our primary school tournaments are competitive, and we have a competitive league and a non-competitive league that run on the same day. We openly call it our competitive team and our development team. It works very well and every child that wants a game of football in P6 and 7 can go! There has to be some element of competition involved as children love competition from they're no age! They'll even race to the front of the dinner line if it means they win! A middle ground and common-sense approach is the best scenario. For underage games up to maybe u14 I would like a competitive half/quarter/third or whathever, of football and then a half where the score doesn't count and everyone can get a go!

As someone said earlier, it's the parents who are the problem 99% of the time! I have friends who turn into different people when it involves their own kids!! Usually becoming the people they once complained about themselves!

This. Parents should be f**king banned from Underage games. I have coached for a few years but as soon as my own kids are out of youth I am done with it and it is solely down to the parents. At U12.5 We had a policy that every player got at least a half. That did mean that better players got more game time as they usually stay on for the whole match. Looking back that might have been unfair as it meant the same players tended to get swapped out for each other  but we decided it would be too difficult to try to give the same game time for everyone and we wanted to avoid the situation where we had 4-5 weaker players coming on en masse near the end, significantly weakening the team and frustrating the rest of the players.

on one memorable evening before the game I had one parent complaining about the lack of game time her u12.5 son was getting   and threatening to take her son to a different club. I wouldnt have minded except she was going to take him to a larger club. ::) To top it off, I went for a pint in the clubrooms afterwards with a couple of mates who have sons in the team and they were griping about us not playing our strongest team. They got a pretty colourful response on it.

I'm lucky and never had this experience with parents to be honest. But I have heard this plenty of times. Again I always made sure I everyone got equal game time. Heard plenty from the young fella about it though. So you can't win.

It's a fine line. Keeping all kids interested and giving them a love for the game. I'm with an U10s and we try to play all the kids. If we have more we maybe give them a kid for each half. Or I we are low we might put a younger sibling in the goal. Kids always want to know who wins but it's getting them active. The best will shine through. But the others get a sense of team and the club. Keeping them involved in gaa is the biggest result be it a fan or club member . I find soccer really tough on kids. My own lad couldn't even get into a club. Rugby I've no experience off.

Rugby I think has an issue attracting and keeping kids. Heard participation numbers are down. But no first hand knowledge.

Soccer is all small sided games until 10 or 11 then it's gung go elite. Clubs poaching each others best players etc. If you don't run a good squad you can get humped 7 or 8 nil quite quickly and your best end up leaving. It's a real mess tbh.

Rugbys problem is the dangers it possesses once it gets into full contact. You can have kids 6 ft tall in U15s smashing up small kids. Hence the fall out. Plus the fact its a game with little skill required which is ideal for big awkward mullackers to smash into each other. I wouldnt let my kids near it.

Youth rugy in Ulster is very much dependent on the schools set up. Get on the schools team and you won't be playing club rugby so it's only those who don't go to one of the rugby schools or didn't make the first, second, thirds team in there.

Soccer, I've seen some poor player management in the SBYL, subs regularly don't get on and I'd the wee lad at a load of them games over the years...

We've issues, no doubt, but I wouldn't be taking issues from either rugby or soccer other than they offer structured fixtures, week in week out.

Go Games or no Go Games, every club has a bunch of players with the following characteristics.........

Take a much as possible out of each play.
Try to score from difficult positions, even if another player is in a better position.
Only pass the ball as a last resort or if you know you'll get a return pass.
Performance is more important than the team performance.
Always look to start and never look to be subbed off.
Play in a position with multiple touches of the ball.
Demand the ball when you don't have it. And are huffed and belittle those who don't pass to you.
Their Dad is a coach or mentor for the team.

To be fair this is the only way sadly to thrive in the initial stages of playing underage Gaelic football.

Quote from: johnnycool on May 24, 2023, 03:45:49 PM

Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2023, 02:03:39 PM

Quote from: trailer on May 24, 2023, 01:44:11 PM

Quote from: snoopdog on May 24, 2023, 01:35:38 PM

Quote from: trailer on May 24, 2023, 01:23:05 PM

Quote from: TabClear on May 24, 2023, 12:03:28 PM

Quote from: JimStynes on May 24, 2023, 11:00:27 AM
Our primary school tournaments are competitive, and we have a competitive league and a non-competitive league that run on the same day. We openly call it our competitive team and our development team. It works very well and every child that wants a game of football in P6 and 7 can go! There has to be some element of competition involved as children love competition from they're no age! They'll even race to the front of the dinner line if it means they win! A middle ground and common-sense approach is the best scenario. For underage games up to maybe u14 I would like a competitive half/quarter/third or whathever, of football and then a half where the score doesn't count and everyone can get a go!

As someone said earlier, it's the parents who are the problem 99% of the time! I have friends who turn into different people when it involves their own kids!! Usually becoming the people they once complained about themselves!

This. Parents should be f**king banned from Underage games. I have coached for a few years but as soon as my own kids are out of youth I am done with it and it is solely down to the parents. At U12.5 We had a policy that every player got at least a half. That did mean that better players got more game time as they usually stay on for the whole match. Looking back that might have been unfair as it meant the same players tended to get swapped out for each other  but we decided it would be too difficult to try to give the same game time for everyone and we wanted to avoid the situation where we had 4-5 weaker players coming on en masse near the end, significantly weakening the team and frustrating the rest of the players.

on one memorable evening before the game I had one parent complaining about the lack of game time her u12.5 son was getting   and threatening to take her son to a different club. I wouldnt have minded except she was going to take him to a larger club. ::) To top it off, I went for a pint in the clubrooms afterwards with a couple of mates who have sons in the team and they were griping about us not playing our strongest team. They got a pretty colourful response on it.

I'm lucky and never had this experience with parents to be honest. But I have heard this plenty of times. Again I always made sure I everyone got equal game time. Heard plenty from the young fella about it though. So you can't win.

It's a fine line. Keeping all kids interested and giving them a love for the game. I'm with an U10s and we try to play all the kids. If we have more we maybe give them a kid for each half. Or I we are low we might put a younger sibling in the goal. Kids always want to know who wins but it's getting them active. The best will shine through. But the others get a sense of team and the club. Keeping them involved in gaa is the biggest result be it a fan or club member . I find soccer really tough on kids. My own lad couldn't even get into a club. Rugby I've no experience off.

Rugby I think has an issue attracting and keeping kids. Heard participation numbers are down. But no first hand knowledge.

Soccer is all small sided games until 10 or 11 then it's gung go elite. Clubs poaching each others best players etc. If you don't run a good squad you can get humped 7 or 8 nil quite quickly and your best end up leaving. It's a real mess tbh.

Rugbys problem is the dangers it possesses once it gets into full contact. You can have kids 6 ft tall in U15s smashing up small kids. Hence the fall out. Plus the fact its a game with little skill required which is ideal for big awkward mullackers to smash into each other. I wouldnt let my kids near it.

Youth rugy in Ulster is very much dependent on the schools set up. Get on the schools team and you won't be playing club rugby so it's only those who don't go to one of the rugby schools or didn't make the first, second, thirds team in there.

Soccer, I've seen some poor player management in the SBYL, subs regularly don't get on and I'd the wee lad at a load of them games over the years...

We've issues, no doubt, but I wouldn't be taking issues from either rugby or soccer other than they offer structured fixtures, week in week out.

Agreed. Soccer keeps the fixtures coming but other than that they could learn from GAA in regards to giving kids a go.

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 24, 2023, 03:46:26 PM
Go Games or no Go Games, every club has a bunch of players with the following characteristics.........

Take a much as possible out of each play.
Try to score from difficult positions, even if another player is in a better position.
Only pass the ball as a last resort or if you know you'll get a return pass.
Performance is more important than the team performance.
Always look to start and never look to be subbed off.
Play in a position with multiple touches of the ball.
Demand the ball when you don't have it. And are huffed and belittle those who don't pass to you.
Their Dad is a coach or mentor for the team.

To be fair this is the only way sadly to thrive in the initial stages of playing underage Gaelic football.

Look, this is something thrown up quite a bit, but nobody is taking an u8, 10 or 12 team if they don't have kids on the team. Like all things some are better coaches than others, but if a parent(s) don't step up nobody else is doing it.
The vast majority of coaches are in it for the kids and to help their clubs. The small number of headers get far too much attention.

There's a correlation between parents as coaches and stronger players on teams for a reason. A coach who has an affinity for the game and willingness to coach usually means the family is football orientated or has a background in the game. That becomes bred into the children and part of their DNA from a young age. The kids love the game as its the environment they are used to. As a result they practise more, have a drive to get better and generally end up doing better than most early on at least.

You hear a lot about such and such a coach and their children are playing etc etc. It's nonsense. I would argue that sometimes the children of the coaches get a raw enough deal. Have seen it in GAA and soccer. Coaches more likely to be outwardly seen to be as fair as possible which sometimes means their own are the first to be subbed or do nets or whatever.

Quote from: Minus15 on May 24, 2023, 09:21:24 PM
There's a correlation between parents as coaches and stronger players on teams for a reason. A coach who has an affinity for the game and willingness to coach usually means the family is football orientated or has a background in the game. That becomes bred into the children and part of their DNA from a young age. The kids love the game as its the environment they are used to. As a result they practise more, have a drive to get better and generally end up doing better than most early on at least.

You hear a lot about such and such a coach and their children are playing etc etc. It's nonsense. I would argue that sometimes the children of the coaches get a raw enough deal. Have seen it in GAA and soccer. Coaches more likely to be outwardly seen to be as fair as possible which sometimes means their own are the first to be subbed or do nets or whatever.

I speak from experience as I am on both sides of the coin in relation to local Gaelic football and Soccer teams when i talk of the following.

Coaches who are parents will give the benefit of the doubt and let their kid grow into a position. As with a lot of clubs there are Families who are part of the fabric, their kids will always get more leeway with coaches even if they are not their children. I have seen lads of equal ability go in complete different directions because of this bias.

Now there are lads who, no matter how many opportunities they get, they'll never come good. And there are lads no matter how much they are held back, they'll stick it out and get their chance.

Most coaches are waiting for the weak ones to gives up (unless it's their own son).

No amount of Goo Games or bringing in of rules will change this. It's just the way it is.

I can see both sides of the argument to an extent but coming from a coaches perspective kids need competition. Some of the best days my kids have been at tournaments in different counties, provinces. It built up a great comradery among the boys, boys from different schools gelled at these tournaments and friendships were made. Never won a tournament the boys couldn't tell you who won it but will remember the craic they had together.

When it comes to equal game time in principle I agree, but you've children showing up for go games who rarely train, you can tell they never practice at home but expect to play the same amount as some kids who never misses a session and you know is down the pitch practicing flat out and expect to get asked to play at the tournaments.

Is that fair on the kid who trains and practices?

Quote from: angermanagement on May 24, 2023, 11:15:36 PM
I can see both sides of the argument to an extent but coming from a coaches perspective kids need competition. Some of the best days my kids have been at tournaments in different counties, provinces. It built up a great comradery among the boys, boys from different schools gelled at these tournaments and friendships were made. Never won a tournament the boys couldn't tell you who won it but will remember the craic they had together.

When it comes to equal game time in principle I agree, but you've children showing up for go games who rarely train, you can tell they never practice at home but expect to play the same amount as some kids who never misses a session and you know is down the pitch practicing flat out and expect to get asked to play at the tournaments.

Is that fair on the kid who trains and practices?

Rule should be if you don't train you go to back of the queue when it comes to playing.

As for the competition thing, some of my favourite childhood memories were winning blitzes (some bad ones from losing too of course but thats life lol)

It's an interesting debate - my kids are not sporting age just yet, and it's been a while since I played!

But a thought crossed my mind. The opinions in this forum for this topic may be a bit like assessing the bullet holes in the returned planes.
Most of the people who post here were never lost to the game.
To grow the game - even to stabilise with the increasing global pull of international sports - we should be trying to ensure the players who were traditionally lost to the game, are not lost to the game.

There are so many players who might not have been competitive as a 6,7,8,9 even 15 year old but who become great players or club people.
Would suggest that of those children, more of them stopped playing.

I didn't play from age approx 14/15 - 25 because they started bringing players from younger teams in to start ahead of me in 'important' games when we didn't have subs. I just gravitated towards other sports. It's a regret that I didn't stick at it, but 15 year old me didn't want the disappointment.

Presumable the go games concept will be extended to the Leinster Football Championship

Quote from: Never beat the deeler on May 25, 2023, 12:10:49 AM
It's an interesting debate - my kids are not sporting age just yet, and it's been a while since I played!

But a thought crossed my mind. The opinions in this forum for this topic may be a bit like assessing the bullet holes in the returned planes.
Most of the people who post here were never lost to the game.
To grow the game - even to stabilise with the increasing global pull of international sports - we should be trying to ensure the players who were traditionally lost to the game, are not lost to the game.

There are so many players who might not have been competitive as a 6,7,8,9 even 15 year old but who become great players or club people.
Would suggest that of those children, more of them stopped playing.

I didn't play from age approx 14/15 - 25 because they started bringing players from younger teams in to start ahead of me in 'important' games when we didn't have subs. I just gravitated towards other sports. It's a regret that I didn't stick at it, but 15 year old me didn't want the disappointment.

I was pretty close to being the same, couldn't get playing at 14 and only for a coach in the club coming to get me back out I was gone. He stuck me back in goals that year and I actually played a game for our seniors that season at 15. There probably was a few other things at play too but you can lose lads very easily.

I've been involved with teams from u6s up to u13s now, big ball and wee ball, and I've seen the good and bad of the tournament set up. Everybody keeps saying it's the parents or the odd coach that's the problem - well that's not going to get fixed by leaving everything as it is. In Down I thought the U11 football league works well but an odd one has lost their head in it too but better than the tournaments. In hurling there was the same but it's not as competitive on the sidelines, younger than that there's blitzes every couple of weeks and most go home happy.

The soccer was good too but as they've got older it's definitely more ruthless. Less crap on the sideline in my experience. The amount of da's running their 10 year old to Glenavon etc thinking this is the way to the premier league is nuts.

Quote from: angermanagement on May 24, 2023, 11:15:36 PM
I can see both sides of the argument to an extent but coming from a coaches perspective kids need competition. Some of the best days my kids have been at tournaments in different counties, provinces. It built up a great comradery among the boys, boys from different schools gelled at these tournaments and friendships were made. Never won a tournament the boys couldn't tell you who won it but will remember the craic they had together.

When it comes to equal game time in principle I agree, but you've children showing up for go games who rarely train, you can tell they never practice at home but expect to play the same amount as some kids who never misses a session and you know is down the pitch practicing flat out and expect to get asked to play at the tournaments.

Is that fair on the kid who trains and practices?

Training is a tricky one. Firstly most kids want to go to training and maybe they don't attend because the parent can't take them. If a kid doesn't get to play then they are hardly encouraged to practice. I say equal game time up to u-12 anyway and where poss give weaker players more time, especially if the opposition is weaker.

Quote from: trailer on May 25, 2023, 08:46:36 AM

Quote from: angermanagement on May 24, 2023, 11:15:36 PM
I can see both sides of the argument to an extent but coming from a coaches perspective kids need competition. Some of the best days my kids have been at tournaments in different counties, provinces. It built up a great comradery among the boys, boys from different schools gelled at these tournaments and friendships were made. Never won a tournament the boys couldn't tell you who won it but will remember the craic they had together.

When it comes to equal game time in principle I agree, but you've children showing up for go games who rarely train, you can tell they never practice at home but expect to play the same amount as some kids who never misses a session and you know is down the pitch practicing flat out and expect to get asked to play at the tournaments.

Is that fair on the kid who trains and practices?

Training is a tricky one. Firstly most kids want to go to training and maybe they don't attend because the parent can't take them. If a kid doesn't get to play then they are hardly encouraged to practice. I say equal game time up to u-12 anyway and where poss give weaker players more time, especially if the opposition is weaker.

The parent can't take them!! 40 years ago, when the family was lucky to one car how did these kids get to training or the club? I can't remember my dad ever taking me to the club, which was about 2 miles or more away

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2023, 08:59:11 AM

Quote from: trailer on May 25, 2023, 08:46:36 AM

Quote from: angermanagement on May 24, 2023, 11:15:36 PM
I can see both sides of the argument to an extent but coming from a coaches perspective kids need competition. Some of the best days my kids have been at tournaments in different counties, provinces. It built up a great comradery among the boys, boys from different schools gelled at these tournaments and friendships were made. Never won a tournament the boys couldn't tell you who won it but will remember the craic they had together.

When it comes to equal game time in principle I agree, but you've children showing up for go games who rarely train, you can tell they never practice at home but expect to play the same amount as some kids who never misses a session and you know is down the pitch practicing flat out and expect to get asked to play at the tournaments.

Is that fair on the kid who trains and practices?

Training is a tricky one. Firstly most kids want to go to training and maybe they don't attend because the parent can't take them. If a kid doesn't get to play then they are hardly encouraged to practice. I say equal game time up to u-12 anyway and where poss give weaker players more time, especially if the opposition is weaker.

The parent can't take them!! 40 years ago, when the family was lucky to one car how did these kids get to training or the club? I can't remember my dad ever taking me to the club, which was about 2 miles or more away

40 years ago there was no U8 or U10s. 40 years ago the roads were about 80% less busy. Not everyone lives in Belfast and about 200m from the club.

Quote from: trailer on May 25, 2023, 09:20:04 AM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2023, 08:59:11 AM

Quote from: trailer on May 25, 2023, 08:46:36 AM

Quote from: angermanagement on May 24, 2023, 11:15:36 PM
I can see both sides of the argument to an extent but coming from a coaches perspective kids need competition. Some of the best days my kids have been at tournaments in different counties, provinces. It built up a great comradery among the boys, boys from different schools gelled at these tournaments and friendships were made. Never won a tournament the boys couldn't tell you who won it but will remember the craic they had together.

When it comes to equal game time in principle I agree, but you've children showing up for go games who rarely train, you can tell they never practice at home but expect to play the same amount as some kids who never misses a session and you know is down the pitch practicing flat out and expect to get asked to play at the tournaments.

Is that fair on the kid who trains and practices?

Training is a tricky one. Firstly most kids want to go to training and maybe they don't attend because the parent can't take them. If a kid doesn't get to play then they are hardly encouraged to practice. I say equal game time up to u-12 anyway and where poss give weaker players more time, especially if the opposition is weaker.

The parent can't take them!! 40 years ago, when the family was lucky to one car how did these kids get to training or the club? I can't remember my dad ever taking me to the club, which was about 2 miles or more away

40 years ago there was no U8 or U10s. 40 years ago the roads were about 80% less busy. Not everyone lives in Belfast and about 200m from the club.

We had mentors that came around and collected the players in a mini bus, kids didn't need their mammys and daddy's to cart them around. The cotton wool generation generated by parents. There may not have been under 8's or 10's but I'd have been playing p5 at school and under 12 for club, no age restrictions either in those days.. Ah !! Life was simple, bar the rioting not many distractions

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2023, 10:55:37 AM

Quote from: trailer on May 25, 2023, 09:20:04 AM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2023, 08:59:11 AM

Quote from: trailer on May 25, 2023, 08:46:36 AM

Quote from: angermanagement on May 24, 2023, 11:15:36 PM
I can see both sides of the argument to an extent but coming from a coaches perspective kids need competition. Some of the best days my kids have been at tournaments in different counties, provinces. It built up a great comradery among the boys, boys from different schools gelled at these tournaments and friendships were made. Never won a tournament the boys couldn't tell you who won it but will remember the craic they had together.

When it comes to equal game time in principle I agree, but you've children showing up for go games who rarely train, you can tell they never practice at home but expect to play the same amount as some kids who never misses a session and you know is down the pitch practicing flat out and expect to get asked to play at the tournaments.

Is that fair on the kid who trains and practices?

Training is a tricky one. Firstly most kids want to go to training and maybe they don't attend because the parent can't take them. If a kid doesn't get to play then they are hardly encouraged to practice. I say equal game time up to u-12 anyway and where poss give weaker players more time, especially if the opposition is weaker.

The parent can't take them!! 40 years ago, when the family was lucky to one car how did these kids get to training or the club? I can't remember my dad ever taking me to the club, which was about 2 miles or more away

40 years ago there was no U8 or U10s. 40 years ago the roads were about 80% less busy. Not everyone lives in Belfast and about 200m from the club.

We had mentors that came around and collected the players in a mini bus, kids didn't need their mammys and daddy's to cart them around. The cotton wool generation generated by parents. There may not have been under 8's or 10's but I'd have been playing p5 at school and under 12 for club, no age restrictions either in those days.. Ah !! Life was simple, bar the rioting not many distractions

Ahh, the helicopter parents!

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2023, 10:55:37 AM

Quote from: trailer on May 25, 2023, 09:20:04 AM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2023, 08:59:11 AM

Quote from: trailer on May 25, 2023, 08:46:36 AM

Quote from: angermanagement on May 24, 2023, 11:15:36 PM
I can see both sides of the argument to an extent but coming from a coaches perspective kids need competition. Some of the best days my kids have been at tournaments in different counties, provinces. It built up a great comradery among the boys, boys from different schools gelled at these tournaments and friendships were made. Never won a tournament the boys couldn't tell you who won it but will remember the craic they had together.

When it comes to equal game time in principle I agree, but you've children showing up for go games who rarely train, you can tell they never practice at home but expect to play the same amount as some kids who never misses a session and you know is down the pitch practicing flat out and expect to get asked to play at the tournaments.

Is that fair on the kid who trains and practices?

Training is a tricky one. Firstly most kids want to go to training and maybe they don't attend because the parent can't take them. If a kid doesn't get to play then they are hardly encouraged to practice. I say equal game time up to u-12 anyway and where poss give weaker players more time, especially if the opposition is weaker.

The parent can't take them!! 40 years ago, when the family was lucky to one car how did these kids get to training or the club? I can't remember my dad ever taking me to the club, which was about 2 miles or more away

40 years ago there was no U8 or U10s. 40 years ago the roads were about 80% less busy. Not everyone lives in Belfast and about 200m from the club.

We had mentors that came around and collected the players in a mini bus, kids didn't need their mammys and daddy's to cart them around. The cotton wool generation generated by parents. There may not have been under 8's or 10's but I'd have been playing p5 at school and under 12 for club, no age restrictions either in those days.. Ah !! Life was simple, bar the rioting not many distractions

We'd the coach pick up kids at the side of the road with maybe 6 to 8 kids jammed into the cortina estate or hillman hunter and only two teams ever trained at our place, the U14's and once you were too old for them it was onto the main pitch with the seniors..

We've sanitised childhood in lots of good ways, but somewhere along the way we've lost ourselves as well.

The biggest shame was making all underage competitions become All county competitions. There was a real pride in competing for South Derry honours. I have a few South Derry medals in the house which are good to have given that it changed to All county in 2008 even for the B and C leagues. They also used to have playoffs between North Derry and South Derry winners so you could become county champions but also do away with having to make long away trips to North Derry as a teen.

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2023, 08:59:11 AM

Quote from: trailer on May 25, 2023, 08:46:36 AM

Quote from: angermanagement on May 24, 2023, 11:15:36 PM
I can see both sides of the argument to an extent but coming from a coaches perspective kids need competition. Some of the best days my kids have been at tournaments in different counties, provinces. It built up a great comradery among the boys, boys from different schools gelled at these tournaments and friendships were made. Never won a tournament the boys couldn't tell you who won it but will remember the craic they had together.

When it comes to equal game time in principle I agree, but you've children showing up for go games who rarely train, you can tell they never practice at home but expect to play the same amount as some kids who never misses a session and you know is down the pitch practicing flat out and expect to get asked to play at the tournaments.

Is that fair on the kid who trains and practices?

Training is a tricky one. Firstly most kids want to go to training and maybe they don't attend because the parent can't take them. If a kid doesn't get to play then they are hardly encouraged to practice. I say equal game time up to u-12 anyway and where poss give weaker players more time, especially if the opposition is weaker.

The parent can't take them!! 40 years ago, when the family was lucky to one car how did these kids get to training or the club? I can't remember my dad ever taking me to the club, which was about 2 miles or more away

My father said recently that there was no training when he played under 16 football in the 1970s.

The whole thing is pointless really. Anyone who has coached kids will know that regardless of counting scores the kids will know themselves who won or who "lost".

Losing and how to react to it is a vital life skill and teaching kids early will help them develop into resilient adults.

Or if their team is crap and lose all their games then they'll grow up losers  ;D

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2023, 08:16:21 PM
Or if their team is crap and lose all their games then they'll grow up losers  ;D

😂

Quote from: tyrone08 on May 25, 2023, 08:15:01 PM
The whole thing is pointless really. Anyone who has coached kids will know that regardless of counting scores the kids will know themselves who won or who "lost".

Losing and how to react to it is a vital life skill and teaching kids early will help them develop into resilient adults.

That's all well and good, and of course the kids will know, but if there are no official results, then the club doesn't need to pick the stronger players at the expense of the weaker ones. They can all play and develop and learn.
Kids will be kids, its the adults that need to be managed!

Would picking 'weaker' players instead of 'stronger' players not lead to disillusionment amongst the latter.

I know from personal experience that losing more talented players is at least as common as losing less talented people.

I've known people who were taken off in an U16 match who never kicked a ball again. I know players who are togging out for 20 years and who wouldn't start a game more than once a year. 

All of these things have f all squared to do with whether games are competitive at U12. As usual the GAA are making decisions on the hoof, on the scantiest of anecdotal evidence by the looks of things, and without a single thought as to what the detrimental effects could be.

Its like the shitshow that moving to U17s proved to be.

Twitter has been an interesting read the past few days.

There's a lot of adults in Ireland that truly detest how their GAA clubs/mentors treated them as youngsters.

There's just something doesn't sit right about this blame game with me.

I was the most mediocre footballer / athlete who walked this earth. I was dropped more times than I can remember. Turned up for a bucket load of matches when I knew I wouldn't play. Threw the toys out of the pram once or twice, when I should have played. But I loved playing football, and blamed nobody but myself for not making teams... and then stuck at it til I was 43.

I'm not sure about this "I was never given a chance" mentality that pervades these conversations. Try harder folks.

The problem at underage games is some parents at games plus some of the people managing these teams,  Non-Competive at this level is fine enough.

Quote from: thewobbler on May 27, 2023, 12:31:15 AM
Twitter has been an interesting read the past few days.

There's a lot of adults in Ireland that truly detest how their GAA clubs/mentors treated them as youngsters.

There's just something doesn't sit right about this blame game with me.

I was the most mediocre footballer / athlete who walked this earth. I was dropped more times than I can remember. Turned up for a bucket load of matches when I knew I wouldn't play. Threw the toys out of the pram once or twice, when I should have played. But I loved playing football, and blamed nobody but myself for not making teams... and then stuck at it til I was 43.

I'm not sure about this "I was never given a chance" mentality that pervades these conversations. Try harder folks.

There's a level that you are actually at and then there's a level that you think you are at... anyone that had a decent work ethic or ability got on, anyone who didn't usually fitted into the team that suited their abilities or work ethic.

People looking back complaining about how they were treated in relation to their game time needs to have a word with himself.

Quote from: Keyser soze on May 26, 2023, 09:33:43 AM
Would picking 'weaker' players instead of 'stronger' players not lead to disillusionment amongst the latter.

I know from personal experience that losing more talented players is at least as common as losing less talented people.

I've known people who were taken off in an U16 match who never kicked a ball again. I know players who are togging out for 20 years and who wouldn't start a game more than once a year. 

All of these things have f all squared to do with whether games are competitive at U12. As usual the GAA are making decisions on the hoof, on the scantiest of anecdotal evidence by the looks of things, and without a single thought as to what the detrimental effects could be.

Its like the shitshow that moving to U17s proved to be.

Do you realise there has been literally nothing changed this wee from Croke Park - how parents and clubs apply that is on them surely?

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 27, 2023, 10:29:04 AM

Quote from: thewobbler on May 27, 2023, 12:31:15 AM
Twitter has been an interesting read the past few days.

There's a lot of adults in Ireland that truly detest how their GAA clubs/mentors treated them as youngsters.

There's just something doesn't sit right about this blame game with me.

I was the most mediocre footballer / athlete who walked this earth. I was dropped more times than I can remember. Turned up for a bucket load of matches when I knew I wouldn't play. Threw the toys out of the pram once or twice, when I should have played. But I loved playing football, and blamed nobody but myself for not making teams... and then stuck at it til I was 43.

I'm not sure about this "I was never given a chance" mentality that pervades these conversations. Try harder folks.

There's a level that you are actually at and then there's a level that you think you are at... anyone that had a decent work ethic or ability got on, anyone who didn't usually fitted into the team that suited their abilities or work ethic.

People looking back complaining about how they were treated in relation to their game time needs to have a word with himself.

Some people looking at this issue through the prism of their own youth - some positive and some not so positive.

Yeah, the kids that usually got/get on were the kids who always have a ball or hurl in their hands.  Simple as.  You can see it.  Other lads just turn up an hour every week for training.

In my experience, the parents' of these kids are the first ones to complain in there's a wee competition and their son is in the other team.

I think the GAA must do a proper study on underage competition, through various academic studies and see what the best option is and what best practice is.  Not sure if there's much research out there but it needs looked at.

My option is Go Games of mixed abilities all the way through from February to August, then say a few tournaments in September. 

They have done that Marty - and Go Games was developed as the best practice!

I've coached both Gaelic Football (u7.5) and Soccer (u11) teams for three years now and I think the GoGames model is superb. I think commentators are getting carried away by making winning and losing the issue. Of course kids know when they've won or lost a game whether it's officially competitive or not. The challenge is game time and ensuring that every child gets exposure to the ball in games which is much harder to do in tournaments than GoGames.

No child should be considered a 'write off' and the progress that I've seen from kids in both sports getting steady runs of games is great which wouldn't be happening otherwise. My kids also play hurling and their club is hosting an u11.5 tournament tomorrow with each club only fielding one team. For my sons team not all players have been invited to attend which has caused unnecessary ill feeling. My older son has also played in football/hurling u9.5 and u11.5 tournaments where any player could attend but there was seven or eight subs and very limited playing time which also causes ill feeling. I refereed a tournament final as a neutral last year and the abuse I was getting from both sides was ridiculous, pathetic and a terrible example to the boys on the field. I've also been invited to take my u7.5 team to tournaments which is beyond laughable.

On the other side of the coin, my soccer team play competitive 9v9 matches every week and in tournaments like the Foyle Cup. It's competitive but much better organised than the off-the-cuff tournaments run by a lot of GAA clubs that are too short in both time and land. While soccer is competitive you can register as many teams as you have players, providing you have enough coaches. But I think the GoGames model is better, proven by the fact that the drop off rate from soccer around the age of 12-14 is much greater.

In short, for the kids, every game is 'competitive' and there's nothing wrong with that but it's well covered by the GoGames model. Tournaments tend to become more about the coaches and parents. When there is a tournament, they need to be well organised so that all players in attendance actually play and they should be at u12/u11.5 only and certainly not at the younger age groups.

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 27, 2023, 10:29:04 AM

Quote from: thewobbler on May 27, 2023, 12:31:15 AM
Twitter has been an interesting read the past few days.

There's a lot of adults in Ireland that truly detest how their GAA clubs/mentors treated them as youngsters.

There's just something doesn't sit right about this blame game with me.

I was the most mediocre footballer / athlete who walked this earth. I was dropped more times than I can remember. Turned up for a bucket load of matches when I knew I wouldn't play. Threw the toys out of the pram once or twice, when I should have played. But I loved playing football, and blamed nobody but myself for not making teams... and then stuck at it til I was 43.

I'm not sure about this "I was never given a chance" mentality that pervades these conversations. Try harder folks.

There's a level that you are actually at and then there's a level that you think you are at... anyone that had a decent work ethic or ability got on, anyone who didn't usually fitted into the team that suited their abilities or work ethic.

People looking back complaining about how they were treated in relation to their game time needs to have a word with himself.

You're not factoring in Nepotism which is still a huge problem. There are lads sitting on benches that are every bit as good as those starting but they are losing out because the manager is sorting relatives/mates out first.

It's a difficult balancing act and impossible to satisfy everyone - but ultimately it's essential that no-one loses sight of the fact that it is a game - a bit of fun - important in itself but also of no importance at all!
We play a lot of blitzes at underage where there is a cup, a shield, a plate, etc. - where everyone always has something to play for - that way each team get fairly equal game time and have a chance to 'win' something in a fairly equal competitive games. We encourage the kids to go out and not to be afraid to make loads of mistakes - but to always get involved in games, look for the ball and get the ball in their hands as often as possible - everything that follows after that is all development for each child.
The problem with a lot of games is that 2-3 dominant players get 75% of the ball and there is a real danger that many kids do not touch the ball, do not develop skills and do not enjoy the game - with a resulting drop out. At very young underage levels physical size is a huge factor and therefore the zones, rotation, etc. are all invaluable.
I can understand a lot of mentors and coaches looking back on their experiences and thinking they do not want to make the same mistakes they were subject to - that will nearly always be the case - even now when the current kids look back on their time - they will look to improve things and do things better - informed by their own experiences.
One significant change I'd like to see from the current set up is all underage - right up to U17 - playing on smaller pitches - appropriate reduction in width and length to average kicking distance.

Quote from: Will it ever end on May 27, 2023, 12:12:32 PM
They have done that Marty - and Go Games was developed as the best practice!

But have they?

Where is the valid viewpoint that a few compritions a year are good and build character etc. etc.  Not to mention to develop the stronger players?

Go Games are all about the the mixed ability age groups.

Quote from: clarshack on June 02, 2023, 11:55:18 AM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 27, 2023, 10:29:04 AM

Quote from: thewobbler on May 27, 2023, 12:31:15 AM
Twitter has been an interesting read the past few days.

There's a lot of adults in Ireland that truly detest how their GAA clubs/mentors treated them as youngsters.

There's just something doesn't sit right about this blame game with me.

I was the most mediocre footballer / athlete who walked this earth. I was dropped more times than I can remember. Turned up for a bucket load of matches when I knew I wouldn't play. Threw the toys out of the pram once or twice, when I should have played. But I loved playing football, and blamed nobody but myself for not making teams... and then stuck at it til I was 43.

I'm not sure about this "I was never given a chance" mentality that pervades these conversations. Try harder folks.

There's a level that you are actually at and then there's a level that you think you are at... anyone that had a decent work ethic or ability got on, anyone who didn't usually fitted into the team that suited their abilities or work ethic.

People looking back complaining about how they were treated in relation to their game time needs to have a word with himself.

You're not factoring in Nepotism which is still a huge problem. There are lads sitting on benches that are every bit as good as those starting but they are losing out because the manager is sorting relatives/mates out first.

Important to have a strong games committee that people can go to with those concerns, but that goes both ways too though, "my Johnny is a better player than the managers son", sometimes its right and other times the parent has as much a tinted pair of eyes on as the manager!

But I've listen to that stuff over the years, if you are good enough you'll get game time, only a fool would put on weaker players and is usually caught out  very quickly from competition age up its a results business and coaching staff are judged fairly quick.

If they are doing this up to under 12 then they need a good slap too, I'm at a club that I had no older relations at I think I can only remember one game where I felt nepotism was employed, though if I'm being honest we were fairly equal so it came down to choice, though the only thing that maddens me was I was picked on the Thursday and told on the Sunday I wouldn't be starting lol! 34 years ago, was like yesterday  ;D

Interesting stuff from the cutting edge (Germany) for soccer, lots to be learned from this if people are interested to listen and learn

Germany progresses again. The last change while elite level successful wasn't sustained at either end.
The ability to self assess and accept change is a strength of very few organisations.

Feedback came from the children in pilots, not the parents or coaches!

- no keepers till 10/11
- short games from 6-9
- no 1 off games, just festivals
- more touches
- more opportunities to score goals
- Endzones and not goals at 6/7
- removal of 11-a-side tactical mentality
- take out heading
- no referees to free up people to ref at higher ages
-

The IRFU is actually one of them and have a very progressive approach to coaching, self assessment and children's place in sport in Ireland. Their success is obvious.

And the Germans will just do it. They won't implement it here and there or allow loopholes or ambiguity, they'll just do it.

Based on children's feedback and our scientific knowledge of what suits children at various ages, the Germans have changed;

https://twitter.com/movementcoachkm/status/1667061433798995968?t=4Yb5tO2KCs3PXW8DRNSNgQ&s=19

Was at an U8 camogie Go Games blitz over the weekend
Was all a ground based game with no ball lifted or struck from hand except a few puck outs
At what age do players start taking the ball to hand in the blitzes

Quote from: giveherlong on June 11, 2023, 04:59:51 PM
Was at an U8 camogie Go Games blitz over the weekend
Was all a ground based game with no ball lifted or struck from hand except a few puck outs
At what age do players start taking the ball to hand in the blitzes

Not sure about camogie but in hurling it was mixed at U8s, some clubs played in the hand but some didn't. Some of the younger lads at u8 struggled while 1 or 2 of the older lads could run the whole game because the pitch was small. U9s worked better, that extra year evened it up a bit and the pitches were made that wee bit bigger.

Quote from: clonian on June 12, 2023, 11:46:39 AM

Quote from: giveherlong on June 11, 2023, 04:59:51 PM
Was at an U8 camogie Go Games blitz over the weekend
Was all a ground based game with no ball lifted or struck from hand except a few puck outs
At what age do players start taking the ball to hand in the blitzes

Not sure about camogie but in hurling it was mixed at U8s, some clubs played in the hand but some didn't. Some of the younger lads at u8 struggled while 1 or 2 of the older lads could run the whole game because the pitch was small. U9s worked better, that extra year evened it up a bit and the pitches were made that wee bit bigger.

U7.5 (In Down) is ground hurling with the FT large ball, U9.5 is the QT small ball and they can lift if both teams are in agreement, but no soloing, a tap is all they're allowed.

I wouldn't be rushing to lifting the ball unless most of the kids have a good ground stroke off both sides. Get a good stroke and the aerial strike will come much easier.

Quote from: johnnycool on June 12, 2023, 02:27:24 PM

Quote from: clonian on June 12, 2023, 11:46:39 AM

Quote from: giveherlong on June 11, 2023, 04:59:51 PM
Was at an U8 camogie Go Games blitz over the weekend
Was all a ground based game with no ball lifted or struck from hand except a few puck outs
At what age do players start taking the ball to hand in the blitzes

Not sure about camogie but in hurling it was mixed at U8s, some clubs played in the hand but some didn't. Some of the younger lads at u8 struggled while 1 or 2 of the older lads could run the whole game because the pitch was small. U9s worked better, that extra year evened it up a bit and the pitches were made that wee bit bigger.

U7.5 (In Down) is ground hurling with the FT large ball, U9.5 is the QT small ball and they can lift if both teams are in agreement, but no soloing, a tap is all they're allowed.

I wouldn't be rushing to lifting the ball unless most of the kids have a good ground stroke off both sides. Get a good stroke and the aerial strike will come much easier.

Was chatting to a coach about this and his point of view was a bit different and I never thought about his take on it.

His thoughts were we are punishing the 'good' players all the time, as we are always looking at it from the less capable players' point of view.  We are holding the good players back.

He has a valid point.

I still think one of the biggest issues is that most GAA clubs only field one team. When I was growing up we had 30 players for 15 spots and since every game was competitive we couldn't give guys like me a game as the cost was too great if we lost so in 11 years from U10-U21 I played 7 times ( 6 at minor due to only 15/16 lads playing minor) and came on as a sub once. I was a crap footballer and I knew it but I trained every day of the week. It was disheartening every week we had a game and knowing you would never be thrown a jersey.

The other thing was the lack of games. It was only 6/7 group games and semi final/final in most age groups. I look at the local soccer clubs and they have full schedules of matches and seem to play lots of games with multiple teams.

Quote from: GoldCoastRossie on June 12, 2023, 03:30:02 PM
I still think one of the biggest issues is that most GAA clubs only field one team. When I was growing up we had 30 players for 15 spots and since every game was competitive we couldn't give guys like me a game as the cost was too great if we lost so in 11 years from U10-U21 I played 7 times ( 6 at minor due to only 15/16 lads playing minor) and came on as a sub once. I was a crap footballer and I knew it but I trained every day of the week. It was disheartening every week we had a game and knowing you would never be thrown a jersey.

The other thing was the lack of games. It was only 6/7 group games and semi final/final in most age groups. I look at the local soccer clubs and they have full schedules of matches and seem to play lots of games with multiple teams.

In Cavan any club that has the numbers is fielding two teams at U13 and U15 not sure about U-17 though.

Quote from: marty34 on June 12, 2023, 03:10:02 PM

Quote from: johnnycool on June 12, 2023, 02:27:24 PM

Quote from: clonian on June 12, 2023, 11:46:39 AM

Quote from: giveherlong on June 11, 2023, 04:59:51 PM
Was at an U8 camogie Go Games blitz over the weekend
Was all a ground based game with no ball lifted or struck from hand except a few puck outs
At what age do players start taking the ball to hand in the blitzes

Not sure about camogie but in hurling it was mixed at U8s, some clubs played in the hand but some didn't. Some of the younger lads at u8 struggled while 1 or 2 of the older lads could run the whole game because the pitch was small. U9s worked better, that extra year evened it up a bit and the pitches were made that wee bit bigger.

U7.5 (In Down) is ground hurling with the FT large ball, U9.5 is the QT small ball and they can lift if both teams are in agreement, but no soloing, a tap is all they're allowed.

I wouldn't be rushing to lifting the ball unless most of the kids have a good ground stroke off both sides. Get a good stroke and the aerial strike will come much easier.

Was chatting to a coach about this and his point of view was a bit different and I never thought about his take on it.

His thoughts were we are punishing the 'good' players all the time, as we are always looking at it from the less capable players' point of view.  We are holding the good players back.

He has a valid point.

Ask that same coach if he spends most of his time coaching the "good" players or the "bad" players, and I've saw plenty of these good players at U9.5 etc etc being overtaken by the bad players as they maybe develop later for whatever reason.
Not keen on any coach who pigeon holes youngsters tbh.

Quote from: johnnycool on June 12, 2023, 09:57:33 PM

Quote from: marty34 on June 12, 2023, 03:10:02 PM

Quote from: johnnycool on June 12, 2023, 02:27:24 PM

Quote from: clonian on June 12, 2023, 11:46:39 AM

Quote from: giveherlong on June 11, 2023, 04:59:51 PM
Was at an U8 camogie Go Games blitz over the weekend
Was all a ground based game with no ball lifted or struck from hand except a few puck outs
At what age do players start taking the ball to hand in the blitzes

Not sure about camogie but in hurling it was mixed at U8s, some clubs played in the hand but some didn't. Some of the younger lads at u8 struggled while 1 or 2 of the older lads could run the whole game because the pitch was small. U9s worked better, that extra year evened it up a bit and the pitches were made that wee bit bigger.

U7.5 (In Down) is ground hurling with the FT large ball, U9.5 is the QT small ball and they can lift if both teams are in agreement, but no soloing, a tap is all they're allowed.

I wouldn't be rushing to lifting the ball unless most of the kids have a good ground stroke off both sides. Get a good stroke and the aerial strike will come much easier.

Was chatting to a coach about this and his point of view was a bit different and I never thought about his take on it.

His thoughts were we are punishing the 'good' players all the time, as we are always looking at it from the less capable players' point of view.  We are holding the good players back.

He has a valid point.

Ask that same coach if he spends most of his time coaching the "good" players or the "bad" players, and I've saw plenty of these good players at U9.5 etc etc being overtaken by the bad players as they maybe develop later for whatever reason.
Not keen on any coach who pigeon holes youngsters tbh.

If he is pitching his session at the less developed players he is doing the more developed players a disservice and will hold them back.

Players will develop at differing ages and need to be challenged throughout their development cycle, playing at a level that lets them improve.

Quote from: johnnycool on June 12, 2023, 09:57:33 PM

Quote from: marty34 on June 12, 2023, 03:10:02 PM

Quote from: johnnycool on June 12, 2023, 02:27:24 PM

Quote from: clonian on June 12, 2023, 11:46:39 AM

Quote from: giveherlong on June 11, 2023, 04:59:51 PM
Was at an U8 camogie Go Games blitz over the weekend
Was all a ground based game with no ball lifted or struck from hand except a few puck outs
At what age do players start taking the ball to hand in the blitzes

Not sure about camogie but in hurling it was mixed at U8s, some clubs played in the hand but some didn't. Some of the younger lads at u8 struggled while 1 or 2 of the older lads could run the whole game because the pitch was small. U9s worked better, that extra year evened it up a bit and the pitches were made that wee bit bigger.

U7.5 (In Down) is ground hurling with the FT large ball, U9.5 is the QT small ball and they can lift if both teams are in agreement, but no soloing, a tap is all they're allowed.

I wouldn't be rushing to lifting the ball unless most of the kids have a good ground stroke off both sides. Get a good stroke and the aerial strike will come much easier.

Was chatting to a coach about this and his point of view was a bit different and I never thought about his take on it.

His thoughts were we are punishing the 'good' players all the time, as we are always looking at it from the less capable players' point of view.  We are holding the good players back.

He has a valid point.

Ask that same coach if he spends most of his time coaching the "good" players or the "bad" players, and I've saw plenty of these good players at U9.5 etc etc being overtaken by the bad players as they maybe develop later for whatever reason.
Not keen on any coach who pigeon holes youngsters tbh.

He wasn't pigeon holing anybody. He was trying to develop all his players, not just the so called weaker ones.  His points were valid.

Should all lads not get equal time and equal chances i.e. challenging the so called better players AND the so called weaker ones?

Think we are overthinking the whole thing altogether, good skilful players will always have that, either at under 8 or into senior, your grunts will develop also, they won't have that extra skill level or the spatial awareness the better kids have but they bring that toughness and consistency that is missing from the skilful ones.

Coach the basics and coach them well and the skills will come, without the basics you've nothing

I've seen teams with 90% grunts win championships, the 10% skilled players are needed but as a manager in the past I'd rather have mostly obedient grunts with good basic skills.