The US policing crisis thread

Started by Eamonnca1, April 28, 2015, 07:10:37 AM

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stew

Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 07:38:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 07:33:48 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 07:31:41 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 07:16:54 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 06:53:44 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 06:13:28 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 05:36:27 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 04:41:51 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 02:44:29 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 12:36:49 PM
Stew can explain for himself here, but the only connection I can see to Obama is this meme that is so prevalent on the right that race relations have somehow deteriorated under Obama, which explains Black Lives Matter. The right, at least the Fox News/talk radio right, does not recognize or accept that blacks still suffer discrimination, and thus see any protests against police brutality or, lately, incidents such as the Missouri university one, as blacks trying to claim false victimhood. The ironic thing is that these are the same people who are now gearing up the annual "War on Christmas" bullshit (see the Starbucks cup "scandal" this week) and are forever lamenting the perceived sorry lot of the white christian in the US (See Huckabee, Cruz et al. in the Republican primaries). That all of this black protest has happened under Obama is not a coincidence to them, with his utterly innocuous statement about Trayvon Martin used as evidence that he is trying to incite racism. The idiots cannot see that the reaction against police brutality has occurred because, in the aftermath of Martin's homicide, the reality that black men do in fact suffer as a result of societal preconceptions and prejudices has been repeatedly thrust into the spotlight due to Youtube and the fact that everything is now captured on mobile phones. This was coming to a head regardless of whether Obama was president or not. Black people have decided they are going to highlight this shit when it happens and not go silently any more. And I say fair play! The only actual real connection I can see to Obama is that society has reached a point where a black president can be elected and perhaps the Black Lives Matter thing has benefited from the same societal evolution.

Michael brown, freddie gray (#drugdealerslivesmatter) and eric garner would all be alive if they had obeyed the law.
Puts that campaign into perspective of what it really is, an excuse to do whatever you want and pull out the race card to gain traction.

Let's hope you get no sympathy if a cop guns you down for bitching to him about being pulled over for speeding.

I mean, you would have deserved it because you were breaking the law. ::)

You wishing me dead J70?

Yes, that was my point... ::)

You didn't make it very well then.

Or perhaps its a case of utter stupidity or (hopefully for the sake of your intelligence, if not your honesty) willful ignorance on your part?

But let's take it one step at a time. First...

If a cop pulled you over for going a wee bit over the speed limit or having a broken rear light, do you think there would be no case to answer if he ended up shooting you or choking you to death because you gave him a bit of mouth?

Keep backpeddling. And you can apologise. Just like you do for all those lawbreakers.

No back pedalling here. I stand by all I've said.

Apologize for what?

And answer the question please.

No. I don't have to.

I will answer it for you then, given that scenario he would absolutely have a case to answer, is that exactly how it went down?

If it is he is a bad cop that needs to go away for a long time, there are scumbags in every strata of society just as there are scumbags in every job on the planet, thankfully there are a lot more decent people than the former.

Drug dealing bullies, if they are hurting people, especially cops should be taken down alive if possible, if not, better him or her than the peeler.

Drug dealers are scumbags, they know the risks and I would shed no tears for any drug dealing piece of crap that peddles misery.
Armagh, the one true love of a mans life.

easytiger95

Quote from: whitey on November 11, 2015, 05:41:55 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 11, 2015, 05:13:05 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 11, 2015, 02:37:36 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 12:36:49 PM
Stew can explain for himself here, but the only connection I can see to Obama is this meme that is so prevalent on the right that race relations have somehow deteriorated under Obama, which explains Black Lives Matter. The right, at least the Fox News/talk radio right, does not recognize or accept that blacks still suffer discrimination, and thus see any protests against police brutality or, lately, incidents such as the Missouri university one, as blacks trying to claim false victimhood. The ironic thing is that these are the same people who are now gearing up the annual "War on Christmas" bullshit (see the Starbucks cup "scandal" this week) and are forever lamenting the perceived sorry lot of the white christian in the US (See Huckabee, Cruz et al. in the Republican primaries). That all of this black protest has happened under Obama is not a coincidence to them, with his utterly innocuous statement about Trayvon Martin used as evidence that he is trying to incite racism. The idiots cannot see that the reaction against police brutality has occurred because, in the aftermath of Martin's homicide, the reality that black men do in fact suffer as a result of societal preconceptions and prejudices has been repeatedly thrust into the spotlight due to Youtube and the fact that everything is now captured on mobile phones. This was coming to a head regardless of whether Obama was president or not. Black people have decided they are going to highlight this shit when it happens and not go silently any more. And I say fair play! The only actual real connection I can see to Obama is that society has reached a point where a black president can be elected and perhaps the Black Lives Matter thing has benefited from the same societal evolution.

lol...if kicking up a stink about an email regarding Halloween costumes or a frat boy only allowing white girls into a keg party isn't false victimhood I don't know what is (Yale)

Whitey if people think in this day and age it is still ok to wear blackface or to refuse people entry to a party specifically because of their skin colour, that is not false victimhood. It is the smaller incidents such as these that enable the bigger ones to happen. Racism works by denying the humanity of those discriminated against and whilst the protestors at Mizzou might be oblivious to irony, the basic message of making campuses free from prejudice is laudable.

Civil rights activists died for the right of minorities to attend institutions such as Yale and Mizzou - letting white  frat boys roll back those freedoms just for the thrill of transgression is pathetic and the institutions should be responding in a far more aggressive manner to them.

May I be bold enough to suggest you actually spend 5 minutes reading about what happened (2.5 mins from each side) before you get on your high horse

I have read about what happened from various different sources, but I think you're taking up my post in a manner it wasn't intended (probably my writing more than anything else). I shouldn't have said institutions such as Yale and Mizzou in the last paragraph above as it gives the impression I'm referring specifically to these recent incidents - I'm not.

So, just to be clear, what I'm saying is that it is perfectly understandable for black people to horribly offended by white people in black face. It happens every year around this time, on campus and off, and the ubiquity of social media means it gets highlighted a lot more. People need to cop on and consider the feelings of others, and that's just basic Civics 101.And I stand by what I say, that these smaller acts of ignorance make it possible for an atmosphere to exist in which racism can flourish - again, either on campus or off.

As for the instances of frat house racism, there have been so many caught in the past year on social media, SAE in Oklahoma City being the most obvious.

Which leads me to the specifics of the Yale situation. With regard to the emails from Howard and then Christiakis - firstly, I think Howard's was badly worded, and in trying to close off any avenue where the college could be criticised, came across as overly proscriptive and certainly open to mockery. But Christiakis' reply reminds me of an old quote about feuds in academic institutions - "they are so bitter because there is so little at stake." Christiakis writes like that, as if the ideals she is lauding like the First Amendment, have no limits in the real world. As everyone knows, and as i have posted before, there is no right to absolute free speech (the old shouting fire in the theatre metaphor) and on a mixed campus, respect for others sensitivities is a civilising force.

Also, her call out to the need for universities to be a space to be transgressive, is actually the worse kind of white privilege excess. In the sixties students transgressed by having sex, dropping acid and dropping out - they were transgressing against a system and "punching up" as it were. Asking for students to be allowed to transgress by having the freedom to mock a minority is "punching down".

However, her thinking is just muddled enough for me to think she is just genuinely out of touch and should not have to lose her job. She thinks she is fighting for free speech and i think she would be appalled to be thought of as racist.

As for the frat party, there are loads of conflicting accounts, and given what SAE did at Oklahoma last year, i think it would be fairly easy for any refusal to be given as dark an interpretation as possible. I'm not saying it did not happen, I'm just saying there is a reasonable doubt. I don't think the particular chapter should be disbanded (in as much as I'd think the entire Greek system should be disbanded) but given the reputation it has nationally now, I'd say SAE is probably a dead duck.

There are so many racial problems in America now that are feeding into these specific cases, I just think it is oversimplifying to think of it as false victimhood. There are too many examples of dead victims nationally to dismiss.

Also, no high horse. I love America, always have, lived there for a year in the late 90s and I have always promised myself that I'd get back there for a long trip again (which I hope to do next year).

whitey

Quote from: easytiger95 on November 11, 2015, 10:25:07 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 11, 2015, 05:41:55 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 11, 2015, 05:13:05 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 11, 2015, 02:37:36 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 12:36:49 PM
Stew can explain for himself here, but the only connection I can see to Obama is this meme that is so prevalent on the right that race relations have somehow deteriorated under Obama, which explains Black Lives Matter. The right, at least the Fox News/talk radio right, does not recognize or accept that blacks still suffer discrimination, and thus see any protests against police brutality or, lately, incidents such as the Missouri university one, as blacks trying to claim false victimhood. The ironic thing is that these are the same people who are now gearing up the annual "War on Christmas" bullshit (see the Starbucks cup "scandal" this week) and are forever lamenting the perceived sorry lot of the white christian in the US (See Huckabee, Cruz et al. in the Republican primaries). That all of this black protest has happened under Obama is not a coincidence to them, with his utterly innocuous statement about Trayvon Martin used as evidence that he is trying to incite racism. The idiots cannot see that the reaction against police brutality has occurred because, in the aftermath of Martin's homicide, the reality that black men do in fact suffer as a result of societal preconceptions and prejudices has been repeatedly thrust into the spotlight due to Youtube and the fact that everything is now captured on mobile phones. This was coming to a head regardless of whether Obama was president or not. Black people have decided they are going to highlight this shit when it happens and not go silently any more. And I say fair play! The only actual real connection I can see to Obama is that society has reached a point where a black president can be elected and perhaps the Black Lives Matter thing has benefited from the same societal evolution.

lol...if kicking up a stink about an email regarding Halloween costumes or a frat boy only allowing white girls into a keg party isn't false victimhood I don't know what is (Yale)

Whitey if people think in this day and age it is still ok to wear blackface or to refuse people entry to a party specifically because of their skin colour, that is not false victimhood. It is the smaller incidents such as these that enable the bigger ones to happen. Racism works by denying the humanity of those discriminated against and whilst the protestors at Mizzou might be oblivious to irony, the basic message of making campuses free from prejudice is laudable.

Civil rights activists died for the right of minorities to attend institutions such as Yale and Mizzou - letting white  frat boys roll back those freedoms just for the thrill of transgression is pathetic and the institutions should be responding in a far more aggressive manner to them.

May I be bold enough to suggest you actually spend 5 minutes reading about what happened (2.5 mins from each side) before you get on your high horse

I have read about what happened from various different sources, but I think you're taking up my post in a manner it wasn't intended (probably my writing more than anything else). I shouldn't have said institutions such as Yale and Mizzou in the last paragraph above as it gives the impression I'm referring specifically to these recent incidents - I'm not.

So, just to be clear, what I'm saying is that it is perfectly understandable for black people to horribly offended by white people in black face. It happens every year around this time, on campus and off, and the ubiquity of social media means it gets highlighted a lot more. People need to cop on and consider the feelings of others, and that's just basic Civics 101.And I stand by what I say, that these smaller acts of ignorance make it possible for an atmosphere to exist in which racism can flourish - again, either on campus or off.

As for the instances of frat house racism, there have been so many caught in the past year on social media, SAE in Oklahoma City being the most obvious.

Which leads me to the specifics of the Yale situation. With regard to the emails from Howard and then Christiakis - firstly, I think Howard's was badly worded, and in trying to close off any avenue where the college could be criticised, came across as overly proscriptive and certainly open to mockery. But Christiakis' reply reminds me of an old quote about feuds in academic institutions - "they are so bitter because there is so little at stake." Christiakis writes like that, as if the ideals she is lauding like the First Amendment, have no limits in the real world. As everyone knows, and as i have posted before, there is no right to absolute free speech (the old shouting fire in the theatre metaphor) and on a mixed campus, respect for others sensitivities is a civilising force.

Also, her call out to the need for universities to be a space to be transgressive, is actually the worse kind of white privilege excess. In the sixties students transgressed by having sex, dropping acid and dropping out - they were transgressing against a system and "punching up" as it were. Asking for students to be allowed to transgress by having the freedom to mock a minority is "punching down".

However, her thinking is just muddled enough for me to think she is just genuinely out of touch and should not have to lose her job. She thinks she is fighting for free speech and i think she would be appalled to be thought of as racist.

As for the frat party, there are loads of conflicting accounts, and given what SAE did at Oklahoma last year, i think it would be fairly easy for any refusal to be given as dark an interpretation as possible. I'm not saying it did not happen, I'm just saying there is a reasonable doubt. I don't think the particular chapter should be disbanded (in as much as I'd think the entire Greek system should be disbanded) but given the reputation it has nationally now, I'd say SAE is probably a dead duck.

There are so many racial problems in America now that are feeding into these specific cases, I just think it is oversimplifying to think of it as false victimhood. There are too many examples of dead victims nationally to dismiss.

Also, no high horse. I love America, always have, lived there for a year in the late 90s and I have always promised myself that I'd get back there for a long trip again (which I hope to do next year).

The frat guy also  wouldn't let a gay guy in......I'm guessing he wouldnt have let a fat ugly white chick in either......I'm guessing he would t have let ME in.......just because the guy is a raving fvckin arsehole doesn't mean that this evidence of some institutionalize racism at Yale

The girl who reported it on Twitter wasnt even there....she heard it second hand....and an African Amerian frat member who was also manning the door supposedly said that it NEVER happened, (but now he's gone to ground-LOL) and there were plenty of Afican Americans admitted on the night

My point is that there's plenty of examples of REAL rascism that need to be addressed. Why waste your time on stupid crap such as this!!!!!!

It's widely acknowledged that these guys are assholes of the highest order.....why would highly educated accomplished people like these girls even lower themselves by going to their stupid fvckin Halloween Party. ( When I went to UCD there was a similar obnoxious D4 rugby clique who treated anyone from outside their circle with utter contempt and disdain)

J70

Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 09:51:29 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 07:44:49 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 07:38:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 07:33:48 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 07:31:41 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 07:16:54 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 06:53:44 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 06:13:28 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 05:36:27 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 04:41:51 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 02:44:29 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 12:36:49 PM
Stew can explain for himself here, but the only connection I can see to Obama is this meme that is so prevalent on the right that race relations have somehow deteriorated under Obama, which explains Black Lives Matter. The right, at least the Fox News/talk radio right, does not recognize or accept that blacks still suffer discrimination, and thus see any protests against police brutality or, lately, incidents such as the Missouri university one, as blacks trying to claim false victimhood. The ironic thing is that these are the same people who are now gearing up the annual "War on Christmas" bullshit (see the Starbucks cup "scandal" this week) and are forever lamenting the perceived sorry lot of the white christian in the US (See Huckabee, Cruz et al. in the Republican primaries). That all of this black protest has happened under Obama is not a coincidence to them, with his utterly innocuous statement about Trayvon Martin used as evidence that he is trying to incite racism. The idiots cannot see that the reaction against police brutality has occurred because, in the aftermath of Martin's homicide, the reality that black men do in fact suffer as a result of societal preconceptions and prejudices has been repeatedly thrust into the spotlight due to Youtube and the fact that everything is now captured on mobile phones. This was coming to a head regardless of whether Obama was president or not. Black people have decided they are going to highlight this shit when it happens and not go silently any more. And I say fair play! The only actual real connection I can see to Obama is that society has reached a point where a black president can be elected and perhaps the Black Lives Matter thing has benefited from the same societal evolution.

Michael brown, freddie gray (#drugdealerslivesmatter) and eric garner would all be alive if they had obeyed the law.
Puts that campaign into perspective of what it really is, an excuse to do whatever you want and pull out the race card to gain traction.

Let's hope you get no sympathy if a cop guns you down for bitching to him about being pulled over for speeding.

I mean, you would have deserved it because you were breaking the law. ::)

You wishing me dead J70?

Yes, that was my point... ::)

You didn't make it very well then.

Or perhaps its a case of utter stupidity or (hopefully for the sake of your intelligence, if not your honesty) willful ignorance on your part?

But let's take it one step at a time. First...

If a cop pulled you over for going a wee bit over the speed limit or having a broken rear light, do you think there would be no case to answer if he ended up shooting you or choking you to death because you gave him a bit of mouth?

Keep backpeddling. And you can apologise. Just like you do for all those lawbreakers.

No back pedalling here. I stand by all I've said.

Apologize for what?

And answer the question please.

No. I don't have to.

Of course you don't have to.

But its rather telling that you're afraid to answer such a simple question!

Not bringing myself to answer ridiculous questions. I don't deal drugs like Freddie Gray so no need to fear the cops.

Sure, you're a white guy who doesn't automatically elicit suspicion and fear on the part of the cops and gets the benefit of the doubt.

But its easy to single out Freddie Gray (although one is forced to wonder if you ever smoked a joint in your youth in Ireland, or done anything that involved illegal trade of some kind).

What about Eric Garner who was selling single smokes? The black guy in Walmart who was murdered for looking at an airgun. Or any of the numerous other black people murdered by cops whose cases have come to light over the past year thanks to mobile phones? 

In any case, there is nothing ridiculous about my question, but you can't even allow yourself to be seen to concede that that the cops would be in the wrong in my scenario.



J70

Quote from: stew on November 11, 2015, 09:55:39 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 07:38:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 07:33:48 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 07:31:41 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 07:16:54 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 06:53:44 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 06:13:28 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 05:36:27 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 04:41:51 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 02:44:29 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 12:36:49 PM
Stew can explain for himself here, but the only connection I can see to Obama is this meme that is so prevalent on the right that race relations have somehow deteriorated under Obama, which explains Black Lives Matter. The right, at least the Fox News/talk radio right, does not recognize or accept that blacks still suffer discrimination, and thus see any protests against police brutality or, lately, incidents such as the Missouri university one, as blacks trying to claim false victimhood. The ironic thing is that these are the same people who are now gearing up the annual "War on Christmas" bullshit (see the Starbucks cup "scandal" this week) and are forever lamenting the perceived sorry lot of the white christian in the US (See Huckabee, Cruz et al. in the Republican primaries). That all of this black protest has happened under Obama is not a coincidence to them, with his utterly innocuous statement about Trayvon Martin used as evidence that he is trying to incite racism. The idiots cannot see that the reaction against police brutality has occurred because, in the aftermath of Martin's homicide, the reality that black men do in fact suffer as a result of societal preconceptions and prejudices has been repeatedly thrust into the spotlight due to Youtube and the fact that everything is now captured on mobile phones. This was coming to a head regardless of whether Obama was president or not. Black people have decided they are going to highlight this shit when it happens and not go silently any more. And I say fair play! The only actual real connection I can see to Obama is that society has reached a point where a black president can be elected and perhaps the Black Lives Matter thing has benefited from the same societal evolution.

Michael brown, freddie gray (#drugdealerslivesmatter) and eric garner would all be alive if they had obeyed the law.
Puts that campaign into perspective of what it really is, an excuse to do whatever you want and pull out the race card to gain traction.

Let's hope you get no sympathy if a cop guns you down for bitching to him about being pulled over for speeding.

I mean, you would have deserved it because you were breaking the law. ::)

You wishing me dead J70?

Yes, that was my point... ::)

You didn't make it very well then.

Or perhaps its a case of utter stupidity or (hopefully for the sake of your intelligence, if not your honesty) willful ignorance on your part?

But let's take it one step at a time. First...

If a cop pulled you over for going a wee bit over the speed limit or having a broken rear light, do you think there would be no case to answer if he ended up shooting you or choking you to death because you gave him a bit of mouth?

Keep backpeddling. And you can apologise. Just like you do for all those lawbreakers.

No back pedalling here. I stand by all I've said.

Apologize for what?

And answer the question please.

No. I don't have to.

I will answer it for you then, given that scenario he would absolutely have a case to answer, is that exactly how it went down?

If it is he is a bad cop that needs to go away for a long time, there are scumbags in every strata of society just as there are scumbags in every job on the planet, thankfully there are a lot more decent people than the former.

Drug dealing bullies, if they are hurting people, especially cops should be taken down alive if possible, if not, better him or her than the peeler.

Drug dealers are scumbags, they know the risks and I would shed no tears for any drug dealing piece of crap that peddles misery.

And yet most of here have probably dabbled in some kind of drugs at some point in our lives. The drug trade doesn't function in a vacuum.

J70

Quote from: stew on November 11, 2015, 09:43:39 PM
The Hunger Striker, you know, the Mizzou hunger striker who feels he is being kept down by the white man, Guess what?

BREAKING NEWS: You know Jonathan Butler, the Mizzou student that started a hunger strike because he wanted the school's president fired for something he had no part in? It turns out he comes from a family with a net worth of over $20 million!!!
http://people.equilar.com/.../eric-butler-unio.../salary/690589...

Give that man a polo mint!

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing your point.

What does his wealth have to do with the point he was making i.e. the university authorities were ignoring the racist incidents?

Link is dead BTW.

easytiger95

Quote from: whitey on November 11, 2015, 11:47:20 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 11, 2015, 10:25:07 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 11, 2015, 05:41:55 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 11, 2015, 05:13:05 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 11, 2015, 02:37:36 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 12:36:49 PM
Stew can explain for himself here, but the only connection I can see to Obama is this meme that is so prevalent on the right that race relations have somehow deteriorated under Obama, which explains Black Lives Matter. The right, at least the Fox News/talk radio right, does not recognize or accept that blacks still suffer discrimination, and thus see any protests against police brutality or, lately, incidents such as the Missouri university one, as blacks trying to claim false victimhood. The ironic thing is that these are the same people who are now gearing up the annual "War on Christmas" bullshit (see the Starbucks cup "scandal" this week) and are forever lamenting the perceived sorry lot of the white christian in the US (See Huckabee, Cruz et al. in the Republican primaries). That all of this black protest has happened under Obama is not a coincidence to them, with his utterly innocuous statement about Trayvon Martin used as evidence that he is trying to incite racism. The idiots cannot see that the reaction against police brutality has occurred because, in the aftermath of Martin's homicide, the reality that black men do in fact suffer as a result of societal preconceptions and prejudices has been repeatedly thrust into the spotlight due to Youtube and the fact that everything is now captured on mobile phones. This was coming to a head regardless of whether Obama was president or not. Black people have decided they are going to highlight this shit when it happens and not go silently any more. And I say fair play! The only actual real connection I can see to Obama is that society has reached a point where a black president can be elected and perhaps the Black Lives Matter thing has benefited from the same societal evolution.

lol...if kicking up a stink about an email regarding Halloween costumes or a frat boy only allowing white girls into a keg party isn't false victimhood I don't know what is (Yale)

Whitey if people think in this day and age it is still ok to wear blackface or to refuse people entry to a party specifically because of their skin colour, that is not false victimhood. It is the smaller incidents such as these that enable the bigger ones to happen. Racism works by denying the humanity of those discriminated against and whilst the protestors at Mizzou might be oblivious to irony, the basic message of making campuses free from prejudice is laudable.

Civil rights activists died for the right of minorities to attend institutions such as Yale and Mizzou - letting white  frat boys roll back those freedoms just for the thrill of transgression is pathetic and the institutions should be responding in a far more aggressive manner to them.

May I be bold enough to suggest you actually spend 5 minutes reading about what happened (2.5 mins from each side) before you get on your high horse

I have read about what happened from various different sources, but I think you're taking up my post in a manner it wasn't intended (probably my writing more than anything else). I shouldn't have said institutions such as Yale and Mizzou in the last paragraph above as it gives the impression I'm referring specifically to these recent incidents - I'm not.

So, just to be clear, what I'm saying is that it is perfectly understandable for black people to horribly offended by white people in black face. It happens every year around this time, on campus and off, and the ubiquity of social media means it gets highlighted a lot more. People need to cop on and consider the feelings of others, and that's just basic Civics 101.And I stand by what I say, that these smaller acts of ignorance make it possible for an atmosphere to exist in which racism can flourish - again, either on campus or off.

As for the instances of frat house racism, there have been so many caught in the past year on social media, SAE in Oklahoma City being the most obvious.

Which leads me to the specifics of the Yale situation. With regard to the emails from Howard and then Christiakis - firstly, I think Howard's was badly worded, and in trying to close off any avenue where the college could be criticised, came across as overly proscriptive and certainly open to mockery. But Christiakis' reply reminds me of an old quote about feuds in academic institutions - "they are so bitter because there is so little at stake." Christiakis writes like that, as if the ideals she is lauding like the First Amendment, have no limits in the real world. As everyone knows, and as i have posted before, there is no right to absolute free speech (the old shouting fire in the theatre metaphor) and on a mixed campus, respect for others sensitivities is a civilising force.

Also, her call out to the need for universities to be a space to be transgressive, is actually the worse kind of white privilege excess. In the sixties students transgressed by having sex, dropping acid and dropping out - they were transgressing against a system and "punching up" as it were. Asking for students to be allowed to transgress by having the freedom to mock a minority is "punching down".

However, her thinking is just muddled enough for me to think she is just genuinely out of touch and should not have to lose her job. She thinks she is fighting for free speech and i think she would be appalled to be thought of as racist.

As for the frat party, there are loads of conflicting accounts, and given what SAE did at Oklahoma last year, i think it would be fairly easy for any refusal to be given as dark an interpretation as possible. I'm not saying it did not happen, I'm just saying there is a reasonable doubt. I don't think the particular chapter should be disbanded (in as much as I'd think the entire Greek system should be disbanded) but given the reputation it has nationally now, I'd say SAE is probably a dead duck.

There are so many racial problems in America now that are feeding into these specific cases, I just think it is oversimplifying to think of it as false victimhood. There are too many examples of dead victims nationally to dismiss.

Also, no high horse. I love America, always have, lived there for a year in the late 90s and I have always promised myself that I'd get back there for a long trip again (which I hope to do next year).

The frat guy also  wouldn't let a gay guy in......I'm guessing he wouldnt have let a fat ugly white chick in either......I'm guessing he would t have let ME in.......just because the guy is a raving fvckin arsehole doesn't mean that this evidence of some institutionalize racism at Yale

The girl who reported it on Twitter wasnt even there....she heard it second hand....and an African Amerian frat member who was also manning the door supposedly said that it NEVER happened, (but now he's gone to ground-LOL) and there were plenty of Afican Americans admitted on the night

My point is that there's plenty of examples of REAL rascism that need to be addressed. Why waste your time on stupid crap such as this!!!!!!

It's widely acknowledged that these guys are assholes of the highest order.....why would highly educated accomplished people like these girls even lower themselves by going to their stupid fvckin Halloween Party. ( When I went to UCD there was a similar obnoxious D4 rugby clique who treated anyone from outside their circle with utter contempt and disdain)

Whitey is there a problem with your reading or my writing? Or do you just want to argue for the sake of arguing? I said above that there was a reasonable doubt that the incident had ever happened, and that the previous history of SAE on other campuses was probably colouring the perception of this particular chapter. I also said in brackets that I reckoned the entire greek system should be dismantled.

But...if it was true, then it would be an example of "real" racism.

whitey

Quote from: easytiger95 on November 12, 2015, 01:43:10 AM
Quote from: whitey on November 11, 2015, 11:47:20 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 11, 2015, 10:25:07 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 11, 2015, 05:41:55 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 11, 2015, 05:13:05 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 11, 2015, 02:37:36 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 12:36:49 PM
Stew can explain for himself here, but the only connection I can see to Obama is this meme that is so prevalent on the right that race relations have somehow deteriorated under Obama, which explains Black Lives Matter. The right, at least the Fox News/talk radio right, does not recognize or accept that blacks still suffer discrimination, and thus see any protests against police brutality or, lately, incidents such as the Missouri university one, as blacks trying to claim false victimhood. The ironic thing is that these are the same people who are now gearing up the annual "War on Christmas" bullshit (see the Starbucks cup "scandal" this week) and are forever lamenting the perceived sorry lot of the white christian in the US (See Huckabee, Cruz et al. in the Republican primaries). That all of this black protest has happened under Obama is not a coincidence to them, with his utterly innocuous statement about Trayvon Martin used as evidence that he is trying to incite racism. The idiots cannot see that the reaction against police brutality has occurred because, in the aftermath of Martin's homicide, the reality that black men do in fact suffer as a result of societal preconceptions and prejudices has been repeatedly thrust into the spotlight due to Youtube and the fact that everything is now captured on mobile phones. This was coming to a head regardless of whether Obama was president or not. Black people have decided they are going to highlight this shit when it happens and not go silently any more. And I say fair play! The only actual real connection I can see to Obama is that society has reached a point where a black president can be elected and perhaps the Black Lives Matter thing has benefited from the same societal evolution.

lol...if kicking up a stink about an email regarding Halloween costumes or a frat boy only allowing white girls into a keg party isn't false victimhood I don't know what is (Yale)

Whitey if people think in this day and age it is still ok to wear blackface or to refuse people entry to a party specifically because of their skin colour, that is not false victimhood. It is the smaller incidents such as these that enable the bigger ones to happen. Racism works by denying the humanity of those discriminated against and whilst the protestors at Mizzou might be oblivious to irony, the basic message of making campuses free from prejudice is laudable.

Civil rights activists died for the right of minorities to attend institutions such as Yale and Mizzou - letting white  frat boys roll back those freedoms just for the thrill of transgression is pathetic and the institutions should be responding in a far more aggressive manner to them.

May I be bold enough to suggest you actually spend 5 minutes reading about what happened (2.5 mins from each side) before you get on your high horse

I have read about what happened from various different sources, but I think you're taking up my post in a manner it wasn't intended (probably my writing more than anything else). I shouldn't have said institutions such as Yale and Mizzou in the last paragraph above as it gives the impression I'm referring specifically to these recent incidents - I'm not.

So, just to be clear, what I'm saying is that it is perfectly understandable for black people to horribly offended by white people in black face. It happens every year around this time, on campus and off, and the ubiquity of social media means it gets highlighted a lot more. People need to cop on and consider the feelings of others, and that's just basic Civics 101.And I stand by what I say, that these smaller acts of ignorance make it possible for an atmosphere to exist in which racism can flourish - again, either on campus or off.

As for the instances of frat house racism, there have been so many caught in the past year on social media, SAE in Oklahoma City being the most obvious.

Which leads me to the specifics of the Yale situation. With regard to the emails from Howard and then Christiakis - firstly, I think Howard's was badly worded, and in trying to close off any avenue where the college could be criticised, came across as overly proscriptive and certainly open to mockery. But Christiakis' reply reminds me of an old quote about feuds in academic institutions - "they are so bitter because there is so little at stake." Christiakis writes like that, as if the ideals she is lauding like the First Amendment, have no limits in the real world. As everyone knows, and as i have posted before, there is no right to absolute free speech (the old shouting fire in the theatre metaphor) and on a mixed campus, respect for others sensitivities is a civilising force.

Also, her call out to the need for universities to be a space to be transgressive, is actually the worse kind of white privilege excess. In the sixties students transgressed by having sex, dropping acid and dropping out - they were transgressing against a system and "punching up" as it were. Asking for students to be allowed to transgress by having the freedom to mock a minority is "punching down".

However, her thinking is just muddled enough for me to think she is just genuinely out of touch and should not have to lose her job. She thinks she is fighting for free speech and i think she would be appalled to be thought of as racist.

As for the frat party, there are loads of conflicting accounts, and given what SAE did at Oklahoma last year, i think it would be fairly easy for any refusal to be given as dark an interpretation as possible. I'm not saying it did not happen, I'm just saying there is a reasonable doubt. I don't think the particular chapter should be disbanded (in as much as I'd think the entire Greek system should be disbanded) but given the reputation it has nationally now, I'd say SAE is probably a dead duck.

There are so many racial problems in America now that are feeding into these specific cases, I just think it is oversimplifying to think of it as false victimhood. There are too many examples of dead victims nationally to dismiss.

Also, no high horse. I love America, always have, lived there for a year in the late 90s and I have always promised myself that I'd get back there for a long trip again (which I hope to do next year).

The frat guy also  wouldn't let a gay guy in......I'm guessing he wouldnt have let a fat ugly white chick in either......I'm guessing he would t have let ME in.......just because the guy is a raving fvckin arsehole doesn't mean that this evidence of some institutionalize racism at Yale

The girl who reported it on Twitter wasnt even there....she heard it second hand....and an African Amerian frat member who was also manning the door supposedly said that it NEVER happened, (but now he's gone to ground-LOL) and there were plenty of Afican Americans admitted on the night

My point is that there's plenty of examples of REAL rascism that need to be addressed. Why waste your time on stupid crap such as this!!!!!!

It's widely acknowledged that these guys are assholes of the highest order.....why would highly educated accomplished people like these girls even lower themselves by going to their stupid fvckin Halloween Party. ( When I went to UCD there was a similar obnoxious D4 rugby clique who treated anyone from outside their circle with utter contempt and disdain)

Whitey is there a problem with your reading or my writing? Or do you just want to argue for the sake of arguing? I said above that there was a reasonable doubt that the incident had ever happened, and that the previous history of SAE on other campuses was probably colouring the perception of this particular chapter. I also said in brackets that I reckoned the entire greek system should be dismantled.

But...if it was true, then it would be an example of "real" racism.

I'm agreeing with you......just expanding on the course of events for the benefit of those who may not realize that there's more to this than the main stream media would have one believe

foxcommander

Quote from: J70 on November 12, 2015, 12:29:05 AM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 09:51:29 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 07:44:49 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 07:38:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 07:33:48 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 07:31:41 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 07:16:54 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 06:53:44 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 06:13:28 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 05:36:27 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 04:41:51 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 02:44:29 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 12:36:49 PM
Stew can explain for himself here, but the only connection I can see to Obama is this meme that is so prevalent on the right that race relations have somehow deteriorated under Obama, which explains Black Lives Matter. The right, at least the Fox News/talk radio right, does not recognize or accept that blacks still suffer discrimination, and thus see any protests against police brutality or, lately, incidents such as the Missouri university one, as blacks trying to claim false victimhood. The ironic thing is that these are the same people who are now gearing up the annual "War on Christmas" bullshit (see the Starbucks cup "scandal" this week) and are forever lamenting the perceived sorry lot of the white christian in the US (See Huckabee, Cruz et al. in the Republican primaries). That all of this black protest has happened under Obama is not a coincidence to them, with his utterly innocuous statement about Trayvon Martin used as evidence that he is trying to incite racism. The idiots cannot see that the reaction against police brutality has occurred because, in the aftermath of Martin's homicide, the reality that black men do in fact suffer as a result of societal preconceptions and prejudices has been repeatedly thrust into the spotlight due to Youtube and the fact that everything is now captured on mobile phones. This was coming to a head regardless of whether Obama was president or not. Black people have decided they are going to highlight this shit when it happens and not go silently any more. And I say fair play! The only actual real connection I can see to Obama is that society has reached a point where a black president can be elected and perhaps the Black Lives Matter thing has benefited from the same societal evolution.

Michael brown, freddie gray (#drugdealerslivesmatter) and eric garner would all be alive if they had obeyed the law.
Puts that campaign into perspective of what it really is, an excuse to do whatever you want and pull out the race card to gain traction.

Let's hope you get no sympathy if a cop guns you down for bitching to him about being pulled over for speeding.

I mean, you would have deserved it because you were breaking the law. ::)

You wishing me dead J70?

Yes, that was my point... ::)

You didn't make it very well then.

Or perhaps its a case of utter stupidity or (hopefully for the sake of your intelligence, if not your honesty) willful ignorance on your part?

But let's take it one step at a time. First...

If a cop pulled you over for going a wee bit over the speed limit or having a broken rear light, do you think there would be no case to answer if he ended up shooting you or choking you to death because you gave him a bit of mouth?

Keep backpeddling. And you can apologise. Just like you do for all those lawbreakers.

No back pedalling here. I stand by all I've said.

Apologize for what?

And answer the question please.

No. I don't have to.

Of course you don't have to.

But its rather telling that you're afraid to answer such a simple question!

Not bringing myself to answer ridiculous questions. I don't deal drugs like Freddie Gray so no need to fear the cops.

Sure, you're a white guy who doesn't automatically elicit suspicion and fear on the part of the cops and gets the benefit of the doubt.

But its easy to single out Freddie Gray (although one is forced to wonder if you ever smoked a joint in your youth in Ireland, or done anything that involved illegal trade of some kind).

What about Eric Garner who was selling single smokes? The black guy in Walmart who was murdered for looking at an airgun. Or any of the numerous other black people murdered by cops whose cases have come to light over the past year thanks to mobile phones? 

Didn't need drugs - I had other healthy pursuits. Football being the main one.
You see, if you behave yourself and don't do anything illegal you don't get into trouble. Manners will also normally stop you getting into any trouble with cops.

and Eric Garner wasn't earning a living selling single cigarettes. Do you actually believe that?
Every second of the day there's a Democrat telling a lie

Eamonnca1

Ah, the old "do nothing wrong and you won't get in trouble" trope. Is this myth ever going to die?

Compare two different people exercising their open carry rights. One is white, one is black. How do you explain the different police responses, Fox?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvW_zBvJlsA

heganboy

Quote from: foxcommander on November 12, 2015, 03:38:31 AM
You see, if you behave yourself and don't do anything illegal you don't get into trouble. Manners will also normally stop you getting into any trouble with cops.

You see, having grown up in the North, I personally know this not to be the case. As do many other posters here.

And I also know that this is not simply something that can be blamed on the police. However when you do not address discrimination in any shape of form, then it becomes dangerous to be from the wrong tribe, whatever tribe that is. Color is an easy one, accent can be another, the rise of religion- I think we've all been there, and we're all screwed because of it.
So what is it that we should do to fix it?
I think admitting there is a problem is a good start. To be poor and black in America is quite simply a disadvantage in may many are areas of life. Fox commander and whitey. I think you should at least consider that to be from a poor area and to be black does present a very different reaction from the police forces of the United States than if one is not...
For someone to protest about that treatment is a very natural reaction. For others to empathize and then do something about it in whatever fashion is probably (though not always) a good second step.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity

J70

Quote from: foxcommander on November 12, 2015, 03:38:31 AM
Quote from: J70 on November 12, 2015, 12:29:05 AM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 09:51:29 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 07:44:49 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 07:38:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 07:33:48 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 07:31:41 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 07:16:54 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 06:53:44 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 06:13:28 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 05:36:27 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 04:41:51 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 11, 2015, 02:44:29 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 11, 2015, 12:36:49 PM
Stew can explain for himself here, but the only connection I can see to Obama is this meme that is so prevalent on the right that race relations have somehow deteriorated under Obama, which explains Black Lives Matter. The right, at least the Fox News/talk radio right, does not recognize or accept that blacks still suffer discrimination, and thus see any protests against police brutality or, lately, incidents such as the Missouri university one, as blacks trying to claim false victimhood. The ironic thing is that these are the same people who are now gearing up the annual "War on Christmas" bullshit (see the Starbucks cup "scandal" this week) and are forever lamenting the perceived sorry lot of the white christian in the US (See Huckabee, Cruz et al. in the Republican primaries). That all of this black protest has happened under Obama is not a coincidence to them, with his utterly innocuous statement about Trayvon Martin used as evidence that he is trying to incite racism. The idiots cannot see that the reaction against police brutality has occurred because, in the aftermath of Martin's homicide, the reality that black men do in fact suffer as a result of societal preconceptions and prejudices has been repeatedly thrust into the spotlight due to Youtube and the fact that everything is now captured on mobile phones. This was coming to a head regardless of whether Obama was president or not. Black people have decided they are going to highlight this shit when it happens and not go silently any more. And I say fair play! The only actual real connection I can see to Obama is that society has reached a point where a black president can be elected and perhaps the Black Lives Matter thing has benefited from the same societal evolution.

Michael brown, freddie gray (#drugdealerslivesmatter) and eric garner would all be alive if they had obeyed the law.
Puts that campaign into perspective of what it really is, an excuse to do whatever you want and pull out the race card to gain traction.

Let's hope you get no sympathy if a cop guns you down for bitching to him about being pulled over for speeding.

I mean, you would have deserved it because you were breaking the law. ::)

You wishing me dead J70?

Yes, that was my point... ::)

You didn't make it very well then.

Or perhaps its a case of utter stupidity or (hopefully for the sake of your intelligence, if not your honesty) willful ignorance on your part?

But let's take it one step at a time. First...

If a cop pulled you over for going a wee bit over the speed limit or having a broken rear light, do you think there would be no case to answer if he ended up shooting you or choking you to death because you gave him a bit of mouth?

Keep backpeddling. And you can apologise. Just like you do for all those lawbreakers.

No back pedalling here. I stand by all I've said.

Apologize for what?

And answer the question please.

No. I don't have to.

Of course you don't have to.

But its rather telling that you're afraid to answer such a simple question!

Not bringing myself to answer ridiculous questions. I don't deal drugs like Freddie Gray so no need to fear the cops.

Sure, you're a white guy who doesn't automatically elicit suspicion and fear on the part of the cops and gets the benefit of the doubt.

But its easy to single out Freddie Gray (although one is forced to wonder if you ever smoked a joint in your youth in Ireland, or done anything that involved illegal trade of some kind).

What about Eric Garner who was selling single smokes? The black guy in Walmart who was murdered for looking at an airgun. Or any of the numerous other black people murdered by cops whose cases have come to light over the past year thanks to mobile phones? 

Didn't need drugs - I had other healthy pursuits. Football being the main one.
You see, if you behave yourself and don't do anything illegal you don't get into trouble. Manners will also normally stop you getting into any trouble with cops.

and Eric Garner wasn't earning a living selling single cigarettes. Do you actually believe that?

He was selling single cigarettes on the day they killed him. It's why the wanted to arrest him that day.

And sorry, but if you grew up getting harassed by cops only because of your skin colour, such as under  "stop and frisk" programmes ,  you probably  would have a few choice words for them too. Would not mean you deserved summary execution.

And spare us the sanctimony. I'm fuckin certain  you've broken a few rules in your time, just like everyone  else, whether that is traffic laws or tax laws or doing something  stupid when drunk. Difference  is when you are black in America, you are far more likely  to pay a heavy price for your mistake.

J70

Quote from: heganboy on November 12, 2015, 05:05:08 AM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 12, 2015, 03:38:31 AM
You see, if you behave yourself and don't do anything illegal you don't get into trouble. Manners will also normally stop you getting into any trouble with cops.

You see, having grown up in the North, I personally know this not to be the case. As do many other posters here.

And I also know that this is not simply something that can be blamed on the police. However when you do not address discrimination in any shape of form, then it becomes dangerous to be from the wrong tribe, whatever tribe that is. Color is an easy one, accent can be another, the rise of religion- I think we've all been there, and we're all screwed because of it.
So what is it that we should do to fix it?
I think admitting there is a problem is a good start. To be poor and black in America is quite simply a disadvantage in may many are areas of life. Fox commander and whitey. I think you should at least consider that to be from a poor area and to be black does present a very different reaction from the police forces of the United States than if one is not...
For someone to protest about that treatment is a very natural reaction. For others to empathize and then do something about it in whatever fashion is probably (though not always) a good second step.

You'd have to suspect  the likes of Foxcommander aren't even Irish, such is their complete cluelessness when it comes to topics like this which strike so close to home.

foxcommander

Quote from: J70 on November 12, 2015, 02:00:49 PM
Quote from: heganboy on November 12, 2015, 05:05:08 AM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 12, 2015, 03:38:31 AM
You see, if you behave yourself and don't do anything illegal you don't get into trouble. Manners will also normally stop you getting into any trouble with cops.

You see, having grown up in the North, I personally know this not to be the case. As do many other posters here.

And I also know that this is not simply something that can be blamed on the police. However when you do not address discrimination in any shape of form, then it becomes dangerous to be from the wrong tribe, whatever tribe that is. Color is an easy one, accent can be another, the rise of religion- I think we've all been there, and we're all screwed because of it.
So what is it that we should do to fix it?
I think admitting there is a problem is a good start. To be poor and black in America is quite simply a disadvantage in may many are areas of life. Fox commander and whitey. I think you should at least consider that to be from a poor area and to be black does present a very different reaction from the police forces of the United States than if one is not...
For someone to protest about that treatment is a very natural reaction. For others to empathize and then do something about it in whatever fashion is probably (though not always) a good second step.

You'd have to suspect  the likes of Foxcommander aren't even Irish, such is their complete cluelessness when it comes to topics like this which strike so close to home.

Hahahahahaha...yep. You're right there Ted  ;)

Strikes so close to home indeed. Straight outta Compton eh lads?
Every second of the day there's a Democrat telling a lie

foxcommander

Quote from: J70 on November 12, 2015, 02:00:49 PM
Quote from: heganboy on November 12, 2015, 05:05:08 AM
Quote from: foxcommander on November 12, 2015, 03:38:31 AM
You see, if you behave yourself and don't do anything illegal you don't get into trouble. Manners will also normally stop you getting into any trouble with cops.

You see, having grown up in the North, I personally know this not to be the case. As do many other posters here.

And I also know that this is not simply something that can be blamed on the police. However when you do not address discrimination in any shape of form, then it becomes dangerous to be from the wrong tribe, whatever tribe that is. Color is an easy one, accent can be another, the rise of religion- I think we've all been there, and we're all screwed because of it.
So what is it that we should do to fix it?
I think admitting there is a problem is a good start. To be poor and black in America is quite simply a disadvantage in may many are areas of life. Fox commander and whitey. I think you should at least consider that to be from a poor area and to be black does present a very different reaction from the police forces of the United States than if one is not...
For someone to protest about that treatment is a very natural reaction. For others to empathize and then do something about it in whatever fashion is probably (though not always) a good second step.

You'd have to suspect  the likes of Foxcommander aren't even Irish, such is their complete cluelessness when it comes to topics like this which strike so close to home.

and if I wasn't - does that mean that you're a xenophobe?

Then again I might be asian. That would make you a racist

CALL THE PC POLICE - plenty on here to pick from...
Every second of the day there's a Democrat telling a lie