Should An Glenn object?

[Franko]

At no point in this will KC say they didn't have 16 players on the pitch, just forget about Mannion, it doesn't come into it all all, standing on the pitch side of the sideline is nowhere near what was going on.

The problem Glen may have is if Crokes said they followed procedure i.e sub slips and the 4th official let the ref know, but he waved it on (thinking the player had left) it will be a tough one to lose, as in forfeit, which within the overall rules they can lose it.

Croke park will have to wait for the referee's report first, they will not have seen it till after Glen put in an appeal, these things are generally posted or on occasions emailed, but I think this one will be meticulously written up.. Glen will get a copy as will KC so I'd say this is a big fecking headace now..

I really feel for the officials on that side and the ref tbh, because up to that point he'd a brilliant game, and it was a penalty 

Is this procedure documented anywhere?  Where?

I understand what you say about feeling sorry for the ref... BUT

If he was informed about the transgression and didn't act, then I'm sorry, but no matter how good a game he had, this is a massive error in judgement

If he wasn't informed, then the 4th official has made the error as he should have been screaming on the radio to the ref to not restart the game

Controlling substitutions is his primary role

Assuming O'Rourke is a man of his word and he did inform the sideline official at the time, then, between them, the officials should have forced the 45 to be retaken

It would have been slightly controversial at the time, and even more so had Glen scored, but nothing to this shit storm

The rule is clear and states that there are 3 possible scenarios. One - Glen are awarded the game. 2 - A replay. 3. A fine. Based on the severity of the transgression it is clear to me the only fair solution is a fine.

Based on that post it is clear to me that you shouldn't be involved in any GAA disciplinary processes

[westbound]

The referee must restart the play after the sub leaves and there are 15 players (providing no black cards or red cards) KC gave the slip notification given .. Are you saying they should literally pull him off the park?

all the players
coming off/going on to the field of play in acts
of substitution/temporary substitution shall go
through this point, when given permission by
the Referee. Except when there is an injury, the player can leave nearest available place

A Substitution may only be made during a break
in play, after the player has given a substitution
note to the Referee, or in the case of a InterCounty Senior game, to the Sideline Official.
This shall also apply to a Temporary Substitution
allowed under Rule 1.5 (b), Rules of Control -
Injuries: Blood or Suspected Head Injury.
A break in play shall be when the play is stopped
after a score or wide or for a free, sideline puck/
kick or when the Referee has stopped play for
medical attention to an injured player.


There isn't a rule that says you have to pull the player off the pitch, if they followed the above rules and it wasn't adhered to by the ref then that's on him unfortunately..

As I've indicated before the referee/officials definitely need to shoulder some of the blame, but not all of it. None of what you've listed above relieves of the KC's management responsibility to ensure that they have 15 players on the field. The referee must give permission for the sub, and yes he should not restart play until the replaced player is off. The sideline officials have the responsibility to ensure that the subs take place from the technical zone. It's clear the referee messed up and I'm not arguing that. What I am objecting to is you putting the entire blame on the ref. That is clearly wrong. To do that is absolving the KC management of all responsibility.

KC can't restart the game, we are talking 30 to 45 seconds here, not minutes whether this extra information (sub's player hasn't left pitch yet) was given to the ref we don't know. But the reality is unfortunately this player, didn't leave or knew he had to leave and wasn't informed by the player coming on, as he positioned himself elsewhere.

Now you can huff and puff about KC breaking the rules, but they'll have really only broke the rules if they sent on a player with no notification to the officials!

Sorry milltown, I don't agree with your last sentence at all.

KC had 16 players on the pitch - that IS a breach of the rules.

Now, I don't disagree with a lot of what  you say and that the officials were at fault.  BUT playing with 16 players IS a break of the rules.

Choosing a punishment that fits the crime is a different matter
For example, Paul mannion remaining on the pitch is also a breach of the rule. But I think everyone would think everyone would agree that the MAXIMUM punishment for that type of 'indiscretion' should be a fine (and most likely no punishment at all).  But defending a passage of play with 16men (virtually inside your own 21 yard line) while the opposition NEED a goal is surely a greater indiscretion than the Paul Mannion offcence and therefore deserving of a bigger punishment?

[Milltown Row2]

Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.

Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.

[blanketattack]

I expect Kilmacud with their millions will have a legal defense team that will tear the GAA legal team apart and stop any chance of a replay

I don't see how whether it's the gaa or Kilmacud that are at fault for the mistake matters. Surely that has no bearing on whether there's a replay or not. The replay is because of the mistake not who's fault it is.

[yellowcard]

A fine is a non starter as far as I'm concerned. The main fault lies with the officials who should be stood down for a number of matches for making what was an honest mistake but a critical mistake nonetheless. The only truly equitable scenario is to start the play from the last 45 with Glen 2 points down, however since that is not possible the only sanction within the rulebook is the ordering of a replay. Which would be very harsh on Kilmacud but the rules are there for a reason.

This has opened up a whole can of worms though and there could well be a raft of objections up and down the country now as a result of this. If it had happened pre social media then it would have been old news a couple of days ago.   

[westbound]

Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.

Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.

I agree it was a mistake.
But rules can be broken by accident.

[Milltown Row2]

At least it filled the last few days with talking shite!! 

[westbound]

At least it filled the last few days with talking shite!! 

Very true

I better go do some work! 

[Silver hill]

Glen took the FK before refs whistle. What is the sanction here?

I suggest you have another look before saying anything else. Ref blew his whistle then Danny Tallon took the free.

[OakLeaf]

I agree it was a mistake.
But rules can be broken by accident.

I've very little doubt that the rule was broken by accident. A wise man once told me, don't go to the court looking for justice, because all you'll get is the law! In this case KC had 16 men defending the 45 regardless of how long it was for or whose fault it was. It's a shitty situation. I dare say we wont come out of it with everybody happy. I just hope is doesn't drag out beyond whatever decision the CCCC makes.

[joemamas]

I expect Kilmacud with their millions will have a legal defense team that will tear the GAA legal team apart and stop any chance of a replay

I don't see how whether it's the gaa or Kilmacud that are at fault for the mistake matters. Surely that has no bearing on whether there's a replay or not. The replay is because of the mistake not who's fault it is.

They can get the same folks who got Connolly off after all other appeals failed all those years ago. 2016 or 2017 i think.

[J70]

I agree it was a mistake.
But rules can be broken by accident.

I've very little doubt that the rule was broken by accident. A wise man once told me, don't go to the court looking for justice, because all you'll get is the law! In this case KC had 16 men defending the 45 regardless of how long it was for or whose fault it was. It's a shitty situation. I dare say we wont come out of it with everybody happy. I just hope is doesn't drag out beyond whatever decision the CCCC makes.

Could end up like the mess with the 2020 Donegal county final (played autumn 2021).

Naomh Chonaill used too many subs in extra time, so Kilcar objected to their win on penalties.

Replay ordered by Donegal CCC, NC appealed to Ulster CCC who told them to start it all again, then eventually Donegal CCC let NC keep the win but fined them 5000 euro.

Only took until February 2022 to resolve!

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2022/0209/1278712-kilcar-shocked-and-appalled-as-2020-final-saga-closes/

[Taylor]

The rules were broken - irrespective if it was by accident or not there has to be consequences.

Given the situation it makes sense that a minor fine for Mannion being on the pitch and then a replay for the player staying on during the phase of play.

There is a big however - if it had occured during say the first half what would the outcome of an appeal be?

It doesnt state anywhere in the rule book about when the infraction occurs (1st minute, 20th minute, last minute) so the GAA are in a hiding to nothing here.

If a replay is ordered (no guarantee both teams agree to this) then this coming season is going to be a shitshow in terms how how club games are ran. If teams see a precedent being set then they will find every angle they can.

One thing is for sure - there has to be an amendment that it is the clubs duty to ensure they dont have more than 15 men on the field. This way the officials cannot get the brunt of it

[seafoid]

Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.

Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.

KC management also made a mistake in ensuring that the FF didn't leave the pitch. You can't blame everything on the officials.

[trailer]

Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.

Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.

KC management also made a mistake in ensuring that the FF didn't leave the pitch. You can't blame everything on the officials.

It's a balls up by the officials. How do KC get any sort of message onto the field in the madness of the closing stages of the game. Either Tallon took the 45 too quick or the ref didn't hold play up to facilitate the sub. Either way blaming this solely on KC is ridiculous.
It's a small referring error, it happens in nearly every game. Glen ought to get over it. They wouldn't have won had they played on until Monday. Joe and his band of goons on twitter would want to move onto the next issue that they want to batter the GAA with.