Minor, U17 or U18.. Croke Parks take on it....

[johnnycool]

Errigle Ciarain hit the nail on the head...

Subject: Motion : Re U18 with Decoupling 17 - Please refer to Coaching Officer
 
A chara,
You are aware of the ongoing debate regarding Underage Gradings and the recent Presentation from the Task Force regarding this issue.

You may recall, our club, along with 5 others from across the Country, brought a motion to Congress in February of this year which would have allowed Counties revert to U18/16/14 at club level if that was the preferred option within the County.

At Congress those speaking against the return to U18 recommended that we pause for reflection and convene a Special Congress later in the year (2022). Even after this request was made, the Motion received 40% support from the floor for an immediate return to U18. Whilst not enough, the message was clear that Clubs were not happy and a Return to U18 was the preferred Route.

The Recent Presentation to the Counties by Central Council has now acknowledged “there are different dynamics at play at club level as opposed to Inter Co”. There appears to be an acceptance that the U19 Competition is not working a Club Level given the overlap with Adult Competitions. There also seems to be an acknowledgement that 18 years of Age is the Natural interconnector from Youth to Young Adult, whether that is within a GAA Context or any other context within society.

So, the principle of a Return to U18 Competition at Club level appears to be accepted by the Working Group, which is very pleasing.

However, there is a still a major gulf between the view of many Clubs and the view of Task Force in respect of the issue of Decoupling. The Report recommends that Decoupling at U18 must be included as part of a Return to U18 Grade.

It is our view that Decoupling is too blunt an instrument and will lead to many unintended consequences for player development at that critical age (as set out below). We acknowledge that there are issues to be overcome in terms of fixture co-ordination, particularly in Dual Counties, and that may require some flexibility in terms of Bye Laws, Starred Matches, etc.

We would also note that it is imperative that Inter Co Minor Competitions are managed within a reasonable timescale in order to help our local administrators with the fixture Calendar. This is a critical piece to the overall solution.


ADVANTAGES OF DECOUPLING AT U18

Ensures a smooth fixture planner for entire year between Minor and Adult competition.

DISADVANTAGES OF DECOUPLING AT U18

Impacts on Rural Clubs of Ireland, where the ability to field 2 adult teams is dependent on Supply of Minor footballers ( particularly on Reserve/B Competitions)

Once Minor Competition are completed, there is natural pathway for development over the remainder of the season. ( It is proven that players who have no games for a 6/9-month period, are more likely to dropout from Gaelic Games.)

The introduction into an adult environment during an 18-year old’s final year, provides a safe, proven pathway to allow our young people become comfortable and secure with their much older colleagues e.g. been asked to sit as cover on bench for reserves, playing for 30 mins, provides them an opportunity to make connections with much more senior colleagues during the second half of the season.


For the Elite Player, the challenge of playing adult football is critical to their development. E.g., A County Minor, whose County exits the Championship in May, may have very little competitive football until the following April, almost 12 months.

Not only is this hugely negative for their development, but it also leads to a serious risk of Dropout.

We now attach a copy of Motion which we are asking your club to consider, and if you are supportive of a Return to U14,U16, and U18 competitions as a minimum requirement for Club participation (with decoupling to remain at 17), please propose the motion to your County Convention.

We understand that many clubs may hold a different view to ourselves, but many appear to be of the same mindset. The changes that have taken place over past 5 years have been done with the best of intentions ( i.e. to retain more players within our games and provide a pathway to Adult football). However, on the ground, it is not working, and every year we wait, another group of lads are missing out as a result,

Please debate this issue within your club, and make an informed decision, whatever that may be.

Is Mise

[Armagh18]

Westmeath going to vote for a return to under 18 and decoupling from adult.

At 18?

Correct. Meaning a lad turning 18 on 1st January won't play his first adult game of hurling or football until he's 19 and probably 2 or 3 months old. Crazy.

Joke. Killer for small clubs.

[Truth hurts]

Errigle Ciarain hit the nail on the head...

Subject: Motion : Re U18 with Decoupling 17 - Please refer to Coaching Officer
 
A chara,
You are aware of the ongoing debate regarding Underage Gradings and the recent Presentation from the Task Force regarding this issue.

You may recall, our club, along with 5 others from across the Country, brought a motion to Congress in February of this year which would have allowed Counties revert to U18/16/14 at club level if that was the preferred option within the County.

At Congress those speaking against the return to U18 recommended that we pause for reflection and convene a Special Congress later in the year (2022). Even after this request was made, the Motion received 40% support from the floor for an immediate return to U18. Whilst not enough, the message was clear that Clubs were not happy and a Return to U18 was the preferred Route.

The Recent Presentation to the Counties by Central Council has now acknowledged “there are different dynamics at play at club level as opposed to Inter Co”. There appears to be an acceptance that the U19 Competition is not working a Club Level given the overlap with Adult Competitions. There also seems to be an acknowledgement that 18 years of Age is the Natural interconnector from Youth to Young Adult, whether that is within a GAA Context or any other context within society.

So, the principle of a Return to U18 Competition at Club level appears to be accepted by the Working Group, which is very pleasing.

However, there is a still a major gulf between the view of many Clubs and the view of Task Force in respect of the issue of Decoupling. The Report recommends that Decoupling at U18 must be included as part of a Return to U18 Grade.

It is our view that Decoupling is too blunt an instrument and will lead to many unintended consequences for player development at that critical age (as set out below). We acknowledge that there are issues to be overcome in terms of fixture co-ordination, particularly in Dual Counties, and that may require some flexibility in terms of Bye Laws, Starred Matches, etc.

We would also note that it is imperative that Inter Co Minor Competitions are managed within a reasonable timescale in order to help our local administrators with the fixture Calendar. This is a critical piece to the overall solution.


ADVANTAGES OF DECOUPLING AT U18

Ensures a smooth fixture planner for entire year between Minor and Adult competition.

DISADVANTAGES OF DECOUPLING AT U18

Impacts on Rural Clubs of Ireland, where the ability to field 2 adult teams is dependent on Supply of Minor footballers ( particularly on Reserve/B Competitions)

Once Minor Competition are completed, there is natural pathway for development over the remainder of the season. ( It is proven that players who have no games for a 6/9-month period, are more likely to dropout from Gaelic Games.)

The introduction into an adult environment during an 18-year old’s final year, provides a safe, proven pathway to allow our young people become comfortable and secure with their much older colleagues e.g. been asked to sit as cover on bench for reserves, playing for 30 mins, provides them an opportunity to make connections with much more senior colleagues during the second half of the season.


For the Elite Player, the challenge of playing adult football is critical to their development. E.g., A County Minor, whose County exits the Championship in May, may have very little competitive football until the following April, almost 12 months.

Not only is this hugely negative for their development, but it also leads to a serious risk of Dropout.

We now attach a copy of Motion which we are asking your club to consider, and if you are supportive of a Return to U14,U16, and U18 competitions as a minimum requirement for Club participation (with decoupling to remain at 17), please propose the motion to your County Convention.

We understand that many clubs may hold a different view to ourselves, but many appear to be of the same mindset. The changes that have taken place over past 5 years have been done with the best of intentions ( i.e. to retain more players within our games and provide a pathway to Adult football). However, on the ground, it is not working, and every year we wait, another group of lads are missing out as a result,

Please debate this issue within your club, and make an informed decision, whatever that may be.

Is Mise

Down GAA county board have voted on prosing this at the last county meeting. Its the best way and I hope the GAA heirachy will take it on board.

[thewobbler]

Dya know. Errigal Ciaran, are doing themselves no favours with the snide way they describe the only advantage of decoupling at u18 as "Ensures a smooth fixture planner for entire year between Minor and Adult competition."

Because it's not a one-issue advantage: it delivers multiple advantages surrounding insurance and player welfare.

---

Forever and ever I'll use this example. About 5 years ago, Liatroim Fontenoys (a rural club from from Co Down), concurrently made the semi-finals of the Down MFC, MHC, IFC, and IHC. There was a group of 4-5 players involved across each of the 4 squads. That's 4-5 of the brightest, most co-ordinated, most athletic young talents in their club being flogged to death for August and September (and they would hope, October too), because they happen to be both big enough for adult football, but young enough for juvenile football.

And this is no dig at Liatroim, for every club in the country would do the same to their brightest young players, should they be good enough to improve their senior team(s), whilst still eligible for minor.

I've had people fob this example off as a rarity. But with Bredagh, Castlewellan, Clonduff, Carryduff, Shamrocks all improving at hurling, this is a more likely occurrence than ever before in my own county.

Clubs can't be trusted not to burn players out. Coaches cannot be trusted not to burn players out. Unfortunately, it has to be done by administrators.

[Armagh18]

Dya know. Errigal Ciaran, are doing themselves no favours with the snide way they describe the only advantage of decoupling at u18 as "Ensures a smooth fixture planner for entire year between Minor and Adult competition."

Because it's not a one-issue advantage: it delivers multiple advantages surrounding insurance and player welfare.

---

Forever and ever I'll use this example. About 5 years ago, Liatroim Fontenoys (a rural club from from Co Down), concurrently made the semi-finals of the Down MFC, MHC, IFC, and IHC. There was a group of 4-5 players involved across each of the 4 squads. That's 4-5 of the brightest, most co-ordinated, most athletic young talents in their club being flogged to death for August and September (and they would hope, October too), because they happen to be both big enough for adult football, but young enough for juvenile football.

And this is no dig at Liatroim, for every club in the country would do the same to their brightest young players, should they be good enough to improve their senior team(s), whilst still eligible for minor.

I've had people fob this example off as a rarity. But with Bredagh, Castlewellan, Clonduff, Carryduff, Shamrocks all improving at hurling, this is a more likely occurrence than ever before in my own county.

Clubs can't be trusted not to burn players out. Coaches cannot be trusted not to burn players out. Unfortunately, it has to be done by administrators.

I’d say the young lads weren’t too worried about burnout. I’d say they were delighted. If you’re competing in 4 competitions at yhe latter stages they won’t have been doing any heavy training. Not a big deal at all

[thewobbler]

We are one of the few sporting associations in the world that provides two completely different sports, let alone two sports that run upon a nearly identical calendar.

It should therefore be intrinsically woven into our culture and rules, that these sports can thrive alongside each other.

Yet we are also one of the few sporting associations in the world which doesn’t follow the concept that a player, once selected for a higher grade, should not also continue to play at the lower grade.

I don’t actually care how much you think those youngsters enjoy training or playing Gaelic Games 7 days a week. That we allow it, is wrong.

[thewobbler]

We are one of the few sporting associations in the world that provides two completely different sports, let alone two sports that run upon a nearly identical calendar.

Four.

Thankfully, most people aren't eligible to play in more than two of those sports at a time.

[Truth hurts]

if it go to 18s then no player should play senior, errigal ciaran don't need 17 year olds playing senior football

[thewobbler]

We are one of the few sporting associations in the world that provides two completely different sports, let alone two sports that run upon a nearly identical calendar.

Four.

Thankfully, most people aren't eligible to play in more than two of those sports at a time.

Eligible?

Well, by and large, females are ineligible to play male sports, and vice versa.

[thewobbler]

stop being twisty Fionntamhnach.

[johnnycool]

Dya know. Errigal Ciaran, are doing themselves no favours with the snide way they describe the only advantage of decoupling at u18 as "Ensures a smooth fixture planner for entire year between Minor and Adult competition."

Because it's not a one-issue advantage: it delivers multiple advantages surrounding insurance and player welfare.

---

Forever and ever I'll use this example. About 5 years ago, Liatroim Fontenoys (a rural club from from Co Down), concurrently made the semi-finals of the Down MFC, MHC, IFC, and IHC. There was a group of 4-5 players involved across each of the 4 squads. That's 4-5 of the brightest, most co-ordinated, most athletic young talents in their club being flogged to death for August and September (and they would hope, October too), because they happen to be both big enough for adult football, but young enough for juvenile football.

And this is no dig at Liatroim, for every club in the country would do the same to their brightest young players, should they be good enough to improve their senior team(s), whilst still eligible for minor.

I've had people fob this example off as a rarity. But with Bredagh, Castlewellan, Clonduff, Carryduff, Shamrocks all improving at hurling, this is a more likely occurrence than ever before in my own county.

Clubs can't be trusted not to burn players out. Coaches cannot be trusted not to burn players out. Unfortunately, it has to be done by administrators.

As you point out in the scenario you paint, Liatroim are a small, rural club (we've love to be as small as them) and were in the middle of unprecedented times, hardly happens that often to be fair, so you make a rule that impacts all small rural clubs because of a once in a thousand scenario.

You are right though with not trusting coaches to do the right thing, but it's easier managed within the club setup than say schools, intercounty and clubs but thankfully with the split season some of that burden is alleviated.
The rest of the Down clubs you mention are big clubs and won't be relying on 18yo's to get a team out at adult, let alone senior level irrespective of what rules are in place.
Don't screw over the small rural clubs by imposing a rule that will have little to no impact on you and your big club.

[thewobbler]

I know we've been here before Johnny, but for the life of me I still cannot fathom how being able to blood a few lads one season early, can be the difference between surviving or falling (or surviving/thriving).

If anything, maintaining a hard cut off point for adult games, should provide the less-obvious senior standard players in the current u-19 crop a chance to make their mark, an opportunity which they likely wouldn't get if the more-obvious senior standard players in the current u-18 crop were able to double-job for the club for the season. Let's be honest, the more-obvious senior standard players from the younger cohort will before long push the year-older players out in most cases; but not without a fight.

---

By the way, you might describe Ballyholland as a big club. And we are getting bigger, no doubt. But every senior manager we've had going back the past 7-8 years since the u17 rule came in, has bemoaned not being able to bring the more talented u17s into their team, and every single year since then, we've blooded fresh-out-of-minor footballers as soon as possible.

So honestly, I don't think clubs can be trusted not to burn out players.




 

[Armagh18]

Let young lads play senior at 18 if they’re able for it, most of us probably played at 15 or 16 and not one bit of harm did it do.  Obviously today is different with the s&c teams do so a 15 or 16 year old couldnt play in 90% of cases, but if someone is 18 and able to hold his own let him at it.

If anything I found playing senior younger gave me an advantage when I went back down to minor, you were able to break tackles against minors  a whole pile easier when you were used to big men tackling  you in senior football and you definitely found a whole lot more time on the ball.

[Cavan19]

I know we've been here before Johnny, but for the life of me I still cannot fathom how being able to blood a few lads one season early, can be the difference between surviving or falling (or surviving/thriving).

If your club were in the situation you might be able to fathom it.

[Armagh18]

I know we've been here before Johnny, but for the life of me I still cannot fathom how being able to blood a few lads one season early, can be the difference between surviving or falling (or surviving/thriving).

If your club were in the situation you might be able to fathom it.

There definitely have been clubs in Armagh in the last number of years that have only had the bare 15 a lot of times  and at least one who had to field with 13 for a lot of the year. One or two 18 year olds can make a huge difference in that situation