Scottish independence referendum thread

[deiseach]

Yes, but the question is 'What will change?'. And they've decided that the price of change, or the uncertainty over some elements, is not worth it.

Well I hope they stop wittering about freedom etc. from now on.

Indeed. I've never been particularly impressed by their Tartan Army schtick when the Sassenachs come to town for any sporting event. Now it needs to be called out for the plazzy patriotism that it is.

[armaghniac]

The thing about long campaigns is that things change - 'events, dear boy, events' as Harold Macmillan was supposed to have said. Had the SNP started their referendum campaign in 2007, they would have been full steam ahead to join the euro. By 2009, such a plan would have been their ruination. The Scots are not willing to take a chance on independence, and while there's nothing irrational about it you have to feel mildly exasperated at how many of them are justifying their decision using the rhetoric of fumbling in a greasy till. No doubt the same people who find inspiration in fireworks and gun salutes at Murrayfield. About the only foreseeable event that would cause them to change their mind at this point would be Britain dropping out of the EU in 2017. Maybe Alex Salmond should be encouraging his party to vote for Ukip!

This referendum was at a poor time, the recession made cash issues more to the forefront of peoples minds, and there are international tensions of one sort and another. There is a Tyrone man on IrishEconomy.ie who reckons that the Irish economic growth figures announced yesterday had been suppressed in recent months so as not to scare the horses in Alban. Looking at the odds for the Scottish Referendum I was shocked to find that the odds for the UK leaving the EU were much more like even money. One wonders how that campaign would proceed with turnout etc, I imagine a lot of English people would just plump not to change when the time comes. But the campaign might expose substantial regional differences and stir things up.

[imtommygunn]

The thing about long campaigns is that things change - 'events, dear boy, events' as Harold Macmillan was supposed to have said. Had the SNP started their referendum campaign in 2007, they would have been full steam ahead to join the euro. By 2009, such a plan would have been their ruination. The Scots are not willing to take a chance on independence, and while there's nothing irrational about it you have to feel mildly exasperated at how many of them are justifying their decision using the rhetoric of fumbling in a greasy till. No doubt the same people who find inspiration in fireworks and gun salutes at Murrayfield. About the only foreseeable event that would cause them to change their mind at this point would be Britain dropping out of the EU in 2017. Maybe Alex Salmond should be encouraging his party to vote for Ukip!

I agree with most of what you say however there are things you can't control and things you can control and they weren't fully on top of the things you can.

I don't fully buy the theory that they chickened out to be honest(not from you but in general). A massive amount of people voted for independence. Yes ~10% more voted against it however at the beginning of this no one could have envisaged.

When it boils down to it the majority of people just want to look after their own and their families welfare.  If it can't be guaranteed then it won't be for them.

[AZOffaly]

Yes, but the question is 'What will change?'. And they've decided that the price of change, or the uncertainty over some elements, is not worth it.

Well I hope they stop wittering about freedom etc. from now on.

Indeed. I've never been particularly impressed by their Tartan Army schtick when the Sassenachs come to town for any sporting event. Now it needs to be called out for the plazzy patriotism that it is.

Well in fairness 45% of them, and with the turnout you can almost say that exactly which is unusual, voted for independence. Maybe they are the crew singing about bannockburn and sassenachs.

[deiseach]

I agree with most of what you say however there are things you can't control and things you can control and they weren't fully on top of the things you can.

I don't fully buy the theory that they chickened out to be honest(not from you but in general). A massive amount of people voted for independence. Yes ~10% more voted against it however at the beginning of this no one could have envisaged.

When it boils down to it the majority of people just want to look after their own and their families welfare.  If it can't be guaranteed then it won't be for them.

You can accept that a person voted rationally for what they perceived to be their own interests and also believe they chickened out. It's pretty much the definition of chickening out. I would have more respect for someone who voted No because they wished to remain Scottish and British than someone who voted No because of potential pension ramifactions.

[imtommygunn]

The pension ramifications is only one thing though. Things like that question confidence. People will ask if  this guy can't guarantee my pension then how can he guarantee my family's welfare, my health gets looked after etc etc. Things like that should not be unknowns. The fact that they are is (or was) a worry to a lot of people.

If a person really believed in scottish independence and voted no then they chickened out. If they had to be swayed by a political campaign then no they didn't chicken out. It's really a sweeping generalisation to suggest the whole nation chickened out.

[armaghniac]

Adam Boulton just reckoned that there was over 100% turn out of voters in some areas. Either he's getting a bit carried away or Sinn Fein must have been orcastrating the voters.

CNN seems to think so too.

[deiseach]

The pension ramifications is only one thing though. Things like that question confidence. People will ask if  this guy can't guarantee my pension then how can he guarantee my family's welfare, my health gets looked after etc etc. Things like that should not be unknowns. The fact that they are is (or was) a worry to a lot of people.

If a person really believed in scottish independence and voted no then they chickened out. If they had to be swayed by a political campaign then no they didn't chicken out. It's really a sweeping generalisation to suggest the whole nation chickened out.

There is such a thing as national characteristics. Shared history, myths, institutions, lingo, to name but a few. With that in mind, I think it is fair to note that the Scots have a shared love of antagonism towards the English. I can see it in ourselves. It's mostly benign, as is ours these days, but when set against the vote yesterday I think I'm entitled to look at the Scottish and see a people who want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

[deiseach]

Adam Boulton just reckoned that there was over 100% turn out of voters in some areas. Either he's getting a bit carried away or Sinn Fein must have been orcastrating the voters.

CNN seems to think so too.

Giving it 110%!

[AZOffaly]

The pension ramifications is only one thing though. Things like that question confidence. People will ask if  this guy can't guarantee my pension then how can he guarantee my family's welfare, my health gets looked after etc etc. Things like that should not be unknowns. The fact that they are is (or was) a worry to a lot of people.

If a person really believed in scottish independence and voted no then they chickened out. If they had to be swayed by a political campaign then no they didn't chicken out. It's really a sweeping generalisation to suggest the whole nation chickened out.

There is such a thing as national characteristics. Shared history, myths, institutions, lingo, to name but a few. With that in mind, I think it is fair to note that the Scots have a shared love of antagonism towards the English. I can see it in ourselves. It's mostly benign, as is ours these days, but when set against the vote yesterday I think I'm entitled to look at the Scottish and see a portion of their people who want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

I think that's more accurate. After all, how many of the 55% would be pure British Scots, I'd imagine a fair few.  It's only the 'Yay Scotland' brigade that voted No that your comment applies to. People who voted Yes should be immune, as should those who would never position themselves that way in the first place.

[Sidney]

The pension ramifications is only one thing though. Things like that question confidence. People will ask if  this guy can't guarantee my pension then how can he guarantee my family's welfare, my health gets looked after etc etc. Things like that should not be unknowns. The fact that they are is (or was) a worry to a lot of people.

If a person really believed in scottish independence and voted no then they chickened out. If they had to be swayed by a political campaign then no they didn't chicken out. It's really a sweeping generalisation to suggest the whole nation chickened out.

There is such a thing as national characteristics. Shared history, myths, institutions, lingo, to name but a few. With that in mind, I think it is fair to note that the Scots have a shared love of antagonism towards the English. I can see it in ourselves. It's mostly benign, as is ours these days, but when set against the vote yesterday I think I'm entitled to look at the Scottish and see a portion of their people who want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

Cant have their Dundee Cake and eat it.

[Billys Boots]

The pension ramifications is only one thing though. Things like that question confidence. People will ask if  this guy can't guarantee my pension then how can he guarantee my family's welfare, my health gets looked after etc etc. Things like that should not be unknowns. The fact that they are is (or was) a worry to a lot of people.

If a person really believed in scottish independence and voted no then they chickened out. If they had to be swayed by a political campaign then no they didn't chicken out. It's really a sweeping generalisation to suggest the whole nation chickened out.

There is such a thing as national characteristics. Shared history, myths, institutions, lingo, to name but a few. With that in mind, I think it is fair to note that the Scots have a shared love of antagonism towards the English. I can see it in ourselves. It's mostly benign, as is ours these days, but when set against the vote yesterday I think I'm entitled to look at the Scottish and see a portion of their people who want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

I think that's more accurate. After all, how many of the 55% would be pure British Scots, I'd imagine a fair few.  It's only the 'Yay Scotland' brigade that voted No that your comment applies to. People who voted Yes should be immune, as should those who would never position themselves that way in the first place.

Ivor Cutler reckoned that the Scots got their brains from herring - I think he might have something there.

[tc_manchester]

Irrespective of the no vote it still put the shits up Cameron. 45% is still a very large amount of people who want to leave "the union". It has to make them think.

Having talked to quite a few scots over the last while about this the general feeling was that it was too soon. The feeling was also that Salmond had pushed on with it because he wanted it to be his legacy and if he had waited out a few years and fleshed all the finer detail out it would have gone through.

You have to wonder would it impact the north. We are heavily subsidised and Scotland simply aren't. If questions start being asked then what would be done.

Regarding a border poll for the 6 counties Sinn Fein/SDLP need to be sure that the British Government will guarantee the block grant for 20 years. After all they have stated that they have no political or economic reason for being in Ireland. It's only because the majority of the population of the 6 counties wish to be aligned to Westminster. Therefore if a border poll is to be held and the British hold to the 'political and economic' line then they have to take the economic worry out of the question otherwise it will be a skewed poll between those who believe in a United Ireland and those who believe in the crown and the half crown.

[Billys Boots]

In case you didn't believe me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWJT7HK4Mlc

Ivor Cutler - Life in a Scotch Sitting Room

[deiseach]

I think that's more accurate. After all, how many of the 55% would be pure British Scots, I'd imagine a fair few.  It's only the 'Yay Scotland' brigade that voted No that your comment applies to. People who voted Yes should be immune, as should those who would never position themselves that way in the first place.

That's fair enough.

I'm not in the humour to be fair this morning though