Scottish independence referendum thread

[bennydorano]

Jesus Salmond is a shrewd operator, so smooth after Gordon Brown mumbled his way through interview with Dimbleby (BBC1 now).

[muppet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLAewTVmkAU&feature=youtu.be

This is a real ad shown in Scotland from the 'No' campaign.

[ranch]

Jesus Salmond is a shrewd operator, so smooth after Gordon Brown mumbled his way through interview with Dimbleby (BBC1 now).

Best politician on these islands by far.

[LCohen]

The meaning really is in the mind of the listener.

I thought Salmond was terrible there. He is good in front of a crowd but poor when faced with a serous interviewer. You could see Dimbleby holding back as he can't press too much (The bbc under of plenty of scutiny here).

The references to Adam Smith are becoming increasingly laughable

[deiseach]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLAewTVmkAU&feature=youtu.be

This is a real ad shown in Scotland from the 'No' campaign.

Fixed the link. I saw it and it reminded me of . . . well, it reminded someone else too:

[muppet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLAewTVmkAU&feature=youtu.be

This is a real ad shown in Scotland from the 'No' campaign.

Fixed the link. I saw it and it reminded me of . . . well, it reminded someone else too:

Apologies, fixed it.

[bennydorano]

Baffled to see how you can possibly think that, especially in comparison to Brown - a fine orator himself, but the panic he (tonight) & the No camp in general are transmitting is palpable. Then again it is all about opinions & there's going to be some heated ones tomorrow.

I personally didn't really have a preference for Yes or No, I have been fascinated by the whole episode but would be coming down as a Yes voter if I had a vote (and that is setting aside the Irish Nationalists attitude that is probably a bit screw the UK, hope it implodes & NI might stumble into a similar position).

[Zip Code]

No 60%+ - no idea why the no camp is panicking!

[bennydorano]

Eh? Simple majority required.

[Zip Code]

Eh? Simple majority required.

Good man benny - 60%+ No was my prediction. 

[AQMP]

Monbiot is an "interesting" character.  I as often disagree as agree with him but this is a good piece on the role of the mainstream media in the IndyRef campaign:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists

How the media shafted the people of Scotland

Perhaps the most arresting fact about the Scottish referendum is this: that there is no newspaper – local, regional or national, English or Scottish – that supports independence except the Sunday Herald. The Scots who will vote yes have been almost without representation in the media.

There is nothing unusual about this. Change in any direction, except further over the brink of market fundamentalism and planetary destruction, requires the defiance of almost the entire battery of salaried opinion. What distinguishes the independence campaign is that it has continued to prosper despite this assault.

In the coverage of the referendum we see most of the pathologies of the corporate media. Here, for instance, you will find the unfounded generalisations with which less enlightened souls are characterised. In the Spectator, Simon Heffer maintains that: "addicted to welfare ... Scots embraced the something for nothing society", objecting to the poll tax "because many of them felt that paying taxes ought to be the responsibility of someone else".

Here is the condescension with which the dominant classes have always treated those they regard as inferior: their serfs, the poor, the Irish, Africans, anyone with whom they disagree. "What spoilt, selfish, childlike fools those Scots are ... They simply don't have a clue how lucky they are," sneered Melanie Reid in the Times. Here is the chronic inability to distinguish between a cause and a person: the referendum is widely portrayed as a vote about Alex Salmond, who is then monstered beyond recognition (a Telegraph editorial compared him to Robert Mugabe).

The problem with the media is exemplified by Dominic Lawson's column for the Daily Mail last week. He began with Scotland, comparing the "threat" of independence with that presented by Hitler (the article was helpfully illustrated with a picture of the Führer – unaccompanied, in this case, by the Mail's former proprietor). Then he turned to the momentous issue of how he almost wrote something inaccurate about David Attenborough, which was narrowly averted because "as it happens, last weekend we had staying with us another of the BBC's great figures, its world affairs editor John Simpson", who happily corrected Lawson's mistake. This was just as well because "the next day I went to the Royal Albert Hall as one of a small number of guests invited by the Proms director for that night's performance. And who should I see as soon as I entered the little room set aside for our group's pre-concert drinks? Sir David Attenborough."

Those who are supposed to hold power to account live in a rarefied, self-referential world of power, circulating among people as exalted as themselves, the "small number of guests" who receive the most charming invitations. That a senior journalist at the BBC should be the house guest of a columnist for the Daily Mail surprises me not one iota.

In June the BBC's economics editor, Robert Peston, complained that BBC news "is completely obsessed by the agenda set by newspapers ... If we think the Mail and Telegraph will lead with this, we should. It's part of the culture." This might help to explain why the BBC has attracted so many complaints of bias in favour of the no campaign.

Living within their tiny circle of light, most senior journalists seem unable to comprehend a desire for change. If they notice it at all, they perceive it as a mortal threat, comparable perhaps to Hitler. They know as little of the lives of the 64 million inhabiting the outer darkness as they do of the Andaman islanders. Yet, lecturing the poor from under the wisteria, they claim to speak for the nation.

As John Harris reports in the Guardian, both north and south of the border "politics as usual suddenly seems so lost as to look completely absurd". But to those within the circle, politics still begins and ends in Westminster. The opinions of no one beyond the gilded thousand with whom they associate is worthy of notice. Throughout the years I've spent working with protest movements and trying to bring neglected issues to light, one consistent theme has emerged: with a few notable exceptions, journalists are always among the last to twig that things have changed. It's no wonder that the Scottish opinion polls took them by surprise.

One of the roles of the Guardian, which has no proprietor, is to represent the unrepresented – and it often does so to great effect. On Scottish independence I believe we have fallen short. Our leader on Saturday used the frames constructed by the rest of the press, inflating a couple of incidents into a "habit" by yes campaigners of "attacking the messenger and ignoring the message", judging the long-term future of the nation by current SNP policy, confusing self-determination with nationalism.

If Westminster is locked into a paralysing neoliberal consensus it is partly because the corporate media, owned and staffed by its beneficiaries, demands it. Any party that challenges this worldview is ruthlessly disciplined. Any party that more noisily promotes corporate power is lauded and championed. Ukip, though it claims to be kicking against the establishment, owes much of its success to the corporate press.

For a moment, Rupert Murdoch appeared ready to offer one of his Faustian bargains to the Scottish National party: my papers for your soul. That offer now seems to have been withdrawn, as he has decided that Salmond's SNP is "not talking about independence, but more welfarism, expensive greenery, etc and passing sovereignty to Brussels" and that it "must change course to prosper if he wins". It's not an observation, it's a warning: if you win independence and pursue this agenda, my newspapers will destroy you.

Despite the rise of social media, the established media continues to define the scope of representative politics in Britain, to shape political demands and to punish and erase those who resist. It is one chamber of the corrupt heart of Britain, pumping fear, misinformation and hatred around the body politic.

That so many Scots, lambasted from all quarters as fools, frauds and ingrates, have refused to be bullied is itself a political triumph. If they vote for independence, they will do so in defiance not only of the Westminster consensus but also of its enforcers: the detached, complacent people who claim to speak on their behalf.

[passedit]

Eh? Simple majority required.

Good man benny - 60%+ No was my prediction. 

The higher the turnout the more chance yes has. More panic from the tools of No.


The Mirror of all papers.

There appears to a typo there, Fighting Dictators should say Clearing Highlands.

[Ulick]

Apparently there's 300k new voters registered since the summer and Yes are planning all sorts of things to get the vote out in difficult (underprivileged) areas such as marches to polling stations with bagpipes and the like. Turnout in Scotland was around 50% at the last election so you'd have to think that if it's substantially more particularly in working class areas it would favour Yes?

[johnneycool]

Apparently there's 300k new voters registered since the summer and Yes are planning all sorts of things to get the vote out in difficult (underprivileged) areas such as marches to polling stations with bagpipes and the like. Turnout in Scotland was around 50% at the last election so you'd have to think that if it's substantially more particularly in working class areas it would favour Yes?

Big Scot I work with who is firmly in the No camp reckons after talking to friends in Scotland over the weekend that the Yes vote is far bigger than some of the polls suggest and will possibly go through.

A lot of young Scots disenfranchised with their lot want change one way or the other he reckons!

[AQMP]

Apparently there's 300k new voters registered since the summer and Yes are planning all sorts of things to get the vote out in difficult (underprivileged) areas such as marches to polling stations with bagpipes and the like. Turnout in Scotland was around 50% at the last election so you'd have to think that if it's substantially more particularly in working class areas it would favour Yes?

That's why we have to take the polls with at least a small pinch of salt as the newly registered voters have not been polled and there could be a significant margin of error.  The Scots-Irish tend to be solid Labour voters and therefore in the "No" camp but it seems Scots-Asian voters favour a "Yes" outcome.

Interesting is that the raft of new powers proposed by the No camp have not been agreed by the the 3 parties and that Gordon Brown could not give a long term tax commitment on the BBC and also the director of the No campaign could not give a commitment that the Barnett formula could be writ in stone for Scotland on the radio this morning.  It seems to me that the "Westminster Elite" arriving in Scotland with a bag of new powers could reinforce in voters minds who really wields power in Scotland and where that power sits.  That has been a mainstay of the Yes campaign.

I still think No will win out in the region of 54%-46% but the divil inside me is hoping fro a Yes win just to see the almighty kerfuffle that would ensue over the weekend!