Kerry V Tyrone Fodder AISF 23rd August 2015

[Throw ball]

That's too simple an analysis. What happens in previous years means nothing in the year of a good run. Sligo dumped Tyrone out in 2002. In 2008 Tyrone were 40-1.

Tyrone turned out to be All Ireland contenders. I think they'd have been labelled the poorest side to reach an All Ireland final since Down.

Don't forget that Down side. Not All Ireland contenders using simple analysis but could easily have won it a few years ago.

On that basis Armagh must have a great chance next year!

[ONeill]

That's too simple an analysis. What happens in previous years means nothing in the year of a good run. Sligo dumped Tyrone out in 2002. In 2008 Tyrone were 40-1.

Tyrone turned out to be All Ireland contenders. I think they'd have been labelled the poorest side to reach an All Ireland final since Down.

Don't forget that Down side. Not All Ireland contenders using simple analysis but could easily have won it a few years ago.

On that basis Armagh must have a great chance next year!

Not quite. Both Down and Tyrone were backboned by players who'd won AIs at underage level. For these teams, the breakthrough can come suddenly by going all the way.

[Il Bomber Destro]

Ciarrai_t, you say Tyrone are a bit away from being AI contenders....I've also watched it again and Tyrone could have won that game if just one of their many mis-firing facets on the day had been working.

That kickout after Bradley equalised was crucial. Sheehan caught it as someone was napping. Tyrone were winning every breaking ball a la the last 10 mins of '08 and I honestly think if we'd been tuned on for that kick out, gone a point ahead, we'd have closed out the game in the most disgusting way possible.

Then you're in an AI final having beaten Kerry. Tyrone could have won the AI this year.

All ifs and buts (including the goal chances, frees) but that tiny inch of luck/concentration was the difference.

Maybe, maybe I'm a bit off in that statement O'Neill, only time will tell I guess. Don't want to add my name to the list of perceived "anti-Tyrone" free-staters like..

On what you said there, I think you have to take the elements of play that were "off" and say, what is a realistic expectation from those?

For example, McAliskey SHOULD have passed to McCurry for that chance in the 1st half and no doubt, he would have stuck it. But if a decent player like McAliskey doesn't have the vision or decision-making skillset to make the optimum play there..how often is he going to do the same thing again in the same scenario? He also made a slightly questionable decision to turn across the goals onto his right when he got blocked by Marc O'Sé..a better pass by Peter Harte (or a better decision to draw the defender closer) and he may have had a clearer shot, but we can see again the inches that were off here were mainly in decision making/skills..and you can't call that "luck" or lack thereof.
By the way, lest anyone think I'm being overly critical..I am, but this is the highest level we're talking here. McAliskey is a very good player. Kicked a superb point in particular in the second half. Peter Harte is a very good player but had no effect on the game really on Sunday as he was well marshalled by Lyne.

Same theory applies to the Sheehan catch of the kickout after Bradley's equaliser..although to be fair I thought it was just a very good run and catch by a guy fresh off the bench. Matty Donnelly I think (could be wrong) was the guy who lost him. He's after an hour of hard running, so it's hyper-critical to slate him for it wouldn't you say? Also, Sheehan, Gooch, Walsh, Darran Sull did extremely well in possession, Walsh played a good ball into Maher who kicked a superb kick from a difficult angle. It was a very good play by Kerry especially given a lot of teams/players would have been rattled beyond belief at that point.

On top of that, Kerry missed 3 or 4 very handy point chances in the first half that you would reasonably expect to get a lot of the time. Therefore, if say McCurry gets the clear goal chance, it's still (in this hypothetical scenario) Tyrone 1-6 Kerry 0-11 at the break say.
Bradley's goal chance could have been finished , sure. Wasn't a terrible effort though and Kealy made a great save. Would have put Tyrone 1-9 to 0-11 up on 43 mins. Flip side of that, Jameso had a clear chance 9m out to turn and stick a goal on 49 mins, but instead for some reason spun onto his right and put it wide incredibly. It was a very unnatural thing for him to do and indicative of how much the shoulder is at him I think.

Don't mistake all that as some kind of superiority complex or anything. The game was tight and that was an accurate reflection of the play. I'm just trying to be logical in my view of it. Always happy to have reasonable discussion on any aspects of play. Tyrone have a lot to be positive about as I said already. Like a lot of people, I wasn't sure they had the stuff to be competing at this level, but they have. Next year and the years beyond will be interesting for sure.

It's a very young Tyrone team with not an awful lot of experience at this stage of the Championship in recent years, the hope and for me, the expectancy is that they will learn from the mistakes you pointed out on Sunday and rectify them. For me our gameplan worked to much greater effect than Kerry's, we carved you up plenty of times down the middle but just didn't have the composure and ruthlessness to make it count.

Guys like McAliskey, McNabb, McNamee and McCann who have been on the panel a few years now without ever really doing it really pushed on this year and I hope they can continue to progress.
I think it will be a game our lads will look back on with huge regret as it was there for them and they didn't take it.

[Il Bomber Destro]

Ciarrai_t, you say Tyrone are a bit away from being AI contenders....I've also watched it again and Tyrone could have won that game if just one of their many mis-firing facets on the day had been working.

That kickout after Bradley equalised was crucial. Sheehan caught it as someone was napping. Tyrone were winning every breaking ball a la the last 10 mins of '08 and I honestly think if we'd been tuned on for that kick out, gone a point ahead, we'd have closed out the game in the most disgusting way possible.

Then you're in an AI final having beaten Kerry. Tyrone could have won the AI this year.

All ifs and buts (including the goal chances, frees) but that tiny inch of luck/concentration was the difference.

Who of substance have Tyrone beaten in the last three years? Until they do that they are a bit off being AI contenders. Coming close does not count. You can huff and puff on the peripherals, but until you do that you are just an also ran.

Who have Mayo beaten of substance in that time period?

A Donegal team that was beaten by Monaghan in 2013 and 2015 who Tyrone beat in both those years?

[ONeill]

What I'm saying is, despite low expectations, it would not have been an unbelievable occurrence had Tyrone won this year's AI.

Maybe it's more pronounced in Ulster (can't see why it should be) but many of our AI winning counties had form. Down '91 had AI minor winners on the side from 4 years earlier. Same as Derry in '93 (4 years earlier Tohill and a few others lifted the minor). Donegal '92 had a rash of U21 AI winners on the side from again the late 80s. Yet, at the start of 1991, no one had these sides as AI contenders. The Tyrone of the 00s had underage medals hanging out their ears. 

Donegal (12) and Armagh (02) had AI runners-up medals spread across the side.

I didn't think we were anywhere near being AI contenders this year, but at HT in the semi you knew they were and shouldn't have been surprised. They had form.

Dunno what happens to Galwegians.

[Throw ball]

That's too simple an analysis. What happens in previous years means nothing in the year of a good run. Sligo dumped Tyrone out in 2002. In 2008 Tyrone were 40-1.

Tyrone turned out to be All Ireland contenders. I think they'd have been labelled the poorest side to reach an All Ireland final since Down.

Don't forget that Down side. Not All Ireland contenders using simple analysis but could easily have won it a few years ago.

On that basis Armagh must have a great chance next year!

Not quite. Both Down and Tyrone were backboned by players who'd won AIs at underage level. For these teams, the breakthrough can come suddenly by going all the way.

Armagh won minor All Ireland in 2009 and Mallon, Moriarity, McKeever have under 21 All Ireland medals. Then you have Cross players with club All Ireland's.

The Armagh 2002 had no underage winners.

P.S. I think Armagh should be about 150/1 to win All Ireland next year.

[Armamike]

I really wish that it was possible to put a nonsense filter in these post-match sections..so much idiotic stuff from a variety of sources. Posting photos, making sweeping statements, vitriolic remarks etc.

Kerry and Tyrone played a good game of ball in shit conditions on Sunday. Very few instances of idiotic behaviour, thankfully, both teams had positives and negatives to take out of game. Kerry happened to be that bit better on the day (despite my bias, surely that is only a logical view?) but with 10 mins to go, it was all to play for, so it was as tight game.

I've watched the game back a couple of times now (I was in the Upper Hogan aswell Sunday) and it hasn't altered my view from the day that Kerry made it harder than it should have been for themselves.
- Kealy kicking long when 2-3 Kerry defenders were completely free.
- Seemingly no plan for covering the 6 channel, even though Crowley was clearly going to be absent at times.
- Needless cross-field risky passes when it total control of possession.
- Playing a full forward trio, none of whom are on top of the game (still capable of great stuff) while leaving Geaney and BJK who are on fire, on the bench for too long.

At least we can work on those things, although I still think our best keeper is on the bench, an opinion Fitz clearly doesn't share.

Tyrone came prepared and gave Kerry trouble in certain quarters. Certainly cause for optimism looking at the likes of Bradley and McCurry performing decently in big games in Croker. I honestly think though (and I'll debate this reasonably with any Tyrone fan) that they are a bit away from All Ireland level yet though.

Without going into detail on the ref issues getting a lot of attention..

Enright tackle - stonewall black card.
McNamee tackle - yellow card, not black.
Marc O'Sé - stonewall black card. (Stupid tackle. McAliskey with a nice dive and throw of his head just to make sure aswell.  )

Don't think anyone in the world will disagree with those.

Tyrone 1st penalty was soft enough and a decision made from a long way off. Don't think there was contact sufficient to knock Tierney over?
McNulty was looking for the second peanlty. There was certainly contact from Mahony, but he went down himself, I think it's fairly clear. Don't blame him that much...there are thousands of players who would have done the same in that position. To be fair a lot of people have called this right, depsite that ar5ehole Brolly proclaiming it a stonewall penalty.

McNabb should have got red. Justin McMahon dragging an injured player on the ground was unsavoury also.

I don't the focus needs to be on the ref for this game thankfully and it was great to see Brian McGuigan on RTE and talking a lot of sense after the game.

I think Tyrone have over-reacted a good bit to the recent events and the general attitude towards them.
I have huge respect for Tyrone football. Strong club scene, some of the best players I've ever seen, many excellent football coaches/managers, a culture of top-class excellence built from a low base (success-wise) in a very short time period, massive investment (not just talk) in development of Gaelic Football and Gaelic Footballers, a level of interest in the game that exists in very few places in Ireland.
You can't do some of the things that Ryan McMenamin, Conor Gormley, Canavan and lately - Tiernan McCann, have done on a football field though and NOT get criticised. I didn't mention it here before the game as it would've muddied waters, but the Club Tyrone thing last week was way OTT I thought. I listened to most of it..and it was only 2/3 of the way through there was a mention of Sunday's game!
It's not a "Free state conspiracy" or anything like that..Kerry have taken some deserved criticism, Dublin and many other teams also. I think too many people take heed of what they read in papers or hear from "pundits"..as quite often there would be guys in every GAA club from Coalisland to Castleisland who would know more about the game. Am I wrong in thinking that the "puke football" comment has contributed massively to the rancour that developed? I'd hate to think that a throw away, blurted out remark by a guy who was a great Kerry player, but is clueless on modern Gaelic Football - would be the genesis or even a little element of a breakdown of respect between 2 counties, who in my own personal experience have huge respect for each other.

Anyway, that's too much there for one post. Now..Kerry are definitely underdogs for Final, This is Mayo's year..etc etc..

Great post. Tyrone need to find a couple of top class forwards and a midfielder before entertaining thoughts of winning an All-Ireland.

[From the Bunker]

Ciarrai_t, you say Tyrone are a bit away from being AI contenders....I've also watched it again and Tyrone could have won that game if just one of their many mis-firing facets on the day had been working.

That kickout after Bradley equalised was crucial. Sheehan caught it as someone was napping. Tyrone were winning every breaking ball a la the last 10 mins of '08 and I honestly think if we'd been tuned on for that kick out, gone a point ahead, we'd have closed out the game in the most disgusting way possible.

Then you're in an AI final having beaten Kerry. Tyrone could have won the AI this year.

All ifs and buts (including the goal chances, frees) but that tiny inch of luck/concentration was the difference.

Who of substance have Tyrone beaten in the last three years? Until they do that they are a bit off being AI contenders. Coming close does not count. You can huff and puff on the peripherals, but until you do that you are just an also ran.

Who have Mayo beaten of substance in that time period?

A Donegal team that was beaten by Monaghan in 2013 and 2015 who Tyrone beat in both those years?

Well from 2011 to 2015 we have beaten Cork x 2, Donegal x 2, Dublin, Drew with Kerry. We are further down the line than yourselves. And all this without a Marquee forward and a Croke park hoodoo!

[BennyHarp]

Ciarrai_t, you say Tyrone are a bit away from being AI contenders....I've also watched it again and Tyrone could have won that game if just one of their many mis-firing facets on the day had been working.

That kickout after Bradley equalised was crucial. Sheehan caught it as someone was napping. Tyrone were winning every breaking ball a la the last 10 mins of '08 and I honestly think if we'd been tuned on for that kick out, gone a point ahead, we'd have closed out the game in the most disgusting way possible.

Then you're in an AI final having beaten Kerry. Tyrone could have won the AI this year.

All ifs and buts (including the goal chances, frees) but that tiny inch of luck/concentration was the difference.

Who of substance have Tyrone beaten in the last three years? Until they do that they are a bit off being AI contenders. Coming close does not count. You can huff and puff on the peripherals, but until you do that you are just an also ran.

Who have Mayo beaten of substance in that time period?

A Donegal team that was beaten by Monaghan in 2013 and 2015 who Tyrone beat in both those years?

Well from 2011 to 2015 we have beaten Cork x 2, Donegal x 2, Dublin, Drew with Kerry. We are further down the line than yourselves. And all this without a Marquee forward and a Croke park hoodoo!

Yes, but if "coming close doesn't count". Where does that really put Mayo? The epitome of coming close.

[From the Bunker]

Ciarrai_t, you say Tyrone are a bit away from being AI contenders....I've also watched it again and Tyrone could have won that game if just one of their many mis-firing facets on the day had been working.

That kickout after Bradley equalised was crucial. Sheehan caught it as someone was napping. Tyrone were winning every breaking ball a la the last 10 mins of '08 and I honestly think if we'd been tuned on for that kick out, gone a point ahead, we'd have closed out the game in the most disgusting way possible.

Then you're in an AI final having beaten Kerry. Tyrone could have won the AI this year.

All ifs and buts (including the goal chances, frees) but that tiny inch of luck/concentration was the difference.

Who of substance have Tyrone beaten in the last three years? Until they do that they are a bit off being AI contenders. Coming close does not count. You can huff and puff on the peripherals, but until you do that you are just an also ran.

Who have Mayo beaten of substance in that time period?

A Donegal team that was beaten by Monaghan in 2013 and 2015 who Tyrone beat in both those years?

Well from 2011 to 2015 we have beaten Cork x 2, Donegal x 2, Dublin, Drew with Kerry. We are further down the line than yourselves. And all this without a Marquee forward and a Croke park hoodoo!

Yes, but if "coming close doesn't count". Where does that really put Mayo? The epitome of coming close.

Totally agree. Coming close does not count! We are ahead of the chasing bunch - nothing more!

[Il Bomber Destro]

Ciarrai_t, you say Tyrone are a bit away from being AI contenders....I've also watched it again and Tyrone could have won that game if just one of their many mis-firing facets on the day had been working.

That kickout after Bradley equalised was crucial. Sheehan caught it as someone was napping. Tyrone were winning every breaking ball a la the last 10 mins of '08 and I honestly think if we'd been tuned on for that kick out, gone a point ahead, we'd have closed out the game in the most disgusting way possible.

Then you're in an AI final having beaten Kerry. Tyrone could have won the AI this year.

All ifs and buts (including the goal chances, frees) but that tiny inch of luck/concentration was the difference.

Who of substance have Tyrone beaten in the last three years? Until they do that they are a bit off being AI contenders. Coming close does not count. You can huff and puff on the peripherals, but until you do that you are just an also ran.

Who have Mayo beaten of substance in that time period?

A Donegal team that was beaten by Monaghan in 2013 and 2015 who Tyrone beat in both those years?

Well from 2011 to 2015 we have beaten Cork x 2, Donegal x 2, Dublin, Drew with Kerry. We are further down the line than yourselves. And all this without a Marquee forward and a Croke park hoodoo!

Well you picked out a 3 year period there.

Are Cork better than Monaghan? I wouldn't say so. Fine they beat Donegal but I think it's worth noting Donegal were far away from competing for an All Ireland in those years, Donegal seem to be a team whose form can be read directly as a measure of their aspects that year, it's tough to be at your best from May - Sept and Donegal have definitely paid the toll from coming through Ulster.

[From the Bunker]

Well you picked out a 3 year period there.

Are Cork better than Monaghan? I wouldn't say so. Fine they beat Donegal but I think it's worth noting Donegal were far away from competing for an All Ireland in those years, Donegal seem to be a team whose form can be read directly as a measure of their aspects that year, it's tough to be at your best from May - Sept and Donegal have definitely paid the toll from coming through Ulster.

Yes I picked a three year period with Tyrone, Most of this emerging team would more than likely be part of the Tyrone team over this period. You can look at the Mayo group since 2011. The Cork/Monaghan question is a much of a muchness. Who would Tyrone fear more in Croker? Now be honest. I know who we would fear more. I agree with you on Donegal, impossible to maintain the level of competitiveness they had to do this season. 2013 and 2015 they were shagged. Many Mayo people are actually reading to much into how good we are from that game this year.

[ONeill]

Ach Jaysus lads, coming close to winning an All-Ireland makes you All-Ireland contenders.

If Mayo lost 10 AIs in a row by a point, are you saying they're not AI contenders.

Tyrone showed against Kerry that, contrary to almost national belief (including my own), they were AI contenders this year. If they'd been blitzed, then no.

A game of inches and luck. The Donegal keeper catching his heel when kicking out in the AI final last year is an example. That had nothing to do with experience or skill.

[INDIANA]

is this thread still open?

[Farrandeelin]

Ach Jaysus lads

Indeed