Ashers cake controversy.

Started by T Fearon, November 07, 2014, 06:36:39 PM

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OakleafCounty

I don't see how the bakery discriminated against the customer on the basis of their sexual orientation. The reason for refusal of service was the message on the cake and not the customers sexual orientation.  If the customer had ordered a normal cake they wouldn't have refused service and if a straight person had ordered the same image it would probably have been refused.

AZOffaly

If my fictional poster man refused to print a poster by a muslim, because he disagreed with the message on the poster, would that be illegal?

deiseach

Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2015, 12:12:12 PM
The Irish Courts consistently allow clubs, societies and associations to be run according to their articles, rules etc. As long a they abide by their own rules they are entitled to decide how they conduct themselves and the courts will not interfere. See Portmarnock and females members for example. The GAA is another example.

Please stop the straw man nonsense.

If Portmarnock offered to stage civil weddings using their facilities, do you think they would be allowed refuse gay weddings? Any legislation that did so wouldn't survive a challenge. The same will apply to churches.

deiseach

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 19, 2015, 12:18:05 PM
If my fictional poster man refused to print a poster by a muslim, because he disagreed with the message on the poster, would that be illegal?

It looks like it. The law of unintended consequences - literally.

muppet

Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 12:22:07 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2015, 12:12:12 PM
The Irish Courts consistently allow clubs, societies and associations to be run according to their articles, rules etc. As long a they abide by their own rules they are entitled to decide how they conduct themselves and the courts will not interfere. See Portmarnock and females members for example. The GAA is another example.

Please stop the straw man nonsense.

If Portmarnock offered to stage civil weddings using their facilities, do you think they would be allowed refuse gay weddings? Any legislation that did so wouldn't survive a challenge. The same will apply to churches.

No it won't.

Religions are also protected under discrimination law. You need to pick an example that isn't covered by the discrimination legislation.
MWWSI 2017

macdanger2

Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 12:22:07 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2015, 12:12:12 PM
The Irish Courts consistently allow clubs, societies and associations to be run according to their articles, rules etc. As long a they abide by their own rules they are entitled to decide how they conduct themselves and the courts will not interfere. See Portmarnock and females members for example. The GAA is another example.

Please stop the straw man nonsense.

If Portmarnock offered to stage civil weddings using their facilities, do you think they would be allowed refuse gay weddings? Any legislation that did so wouldn't survive a challenge. The same will apply to churches.

I would imagine the fact that a church wedding is more than just a civil ceremony would be the difference there.

If a church were holding civil ceremonies without the religious part of the ceremony then they would likely be obliged to do all civil ceremonies including same-sex (although that probably currently holds for civil partnerships)

deiseach

Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2015, 12:27:36 PM
Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 12:22:07 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2015, 12:12:12 PM
The Irish Courts consistently allow clubs, societies and associations to be run according to their articles, rules etc. As long a they abide by their own rules they are entitled to decide how they conduct themselves and the courts will not interfere. See Portmarnock and females members for example. The GAA is another example.

Please stop the straw man nonsense.

If Portmarnock offered to stage civil weddings using their facilities, do you think they would be allowed refuse gay weddings? Any legislation that did so wouldn't survive a challenge. The same will apply to churches.

No it won't.

Religions are also protected under discrimination law. You need to pick an example that isn't covered by the discrimination legislation.

We've seen in the UK that invoking your religion does not protect you from the obligation to provide services without discrimination. I'd be very surprised if the legal framework in Ireland is sufficiently different to prevent such a scenario playing out here.

deiseach

Quote from: macdanger2 on May 19, 2015, 12:31:41 PM
I would imagine the fact that a church wedding is more than just a civil ceremony would be the difference there.

If a church were holding civil ceremonies without the religious part of the ceremony then they would likely be obliged to do all civil ceremonies including same-sex (although that probably currently holds for civil partnerships)

That might be true. It will be interesting to see if that defence holds up.

Sidney

Religious marriage has no legal standing, and is not a marriage as far as the state is concerned.

It's a religious sacrament in the same way first communion or the sacrament of the sick is a sacrament, ie with no legal standing.


armaghniac

I think it likely that churches will simply not be allowed do legal marriages at all and regular people will have trail to the registry office and pay extra.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Orior

Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 12:07:03 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2015, 12:03:04 PM
Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 11:55:50 AM
Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2015, 11:54:40 AM
Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 11:49:39 AM
I know it's a different jurisdiction, but the principle in this verdict is why I think that assurances from the Irish government that religious solemnisers will not be obliged to perform same-sex marriage are not worth very much.

I can't wait for that referendum.

Why would there need to be a referendum?

So that they can include man-sheep, woman-dog and straw-man marriages.

Eh?

Waterford men should have the right to marry sheep, ewe know?
Cover me in chocolate and feed me to the lesbians

deiseach

Quote from: Orior on May 19, 2015, 12:46:13 PM
Waterford men should have the right to marry sheep, ewe know?

We're already well past the point of being shocked by such things. After all, Tipp people are allowed reproduce.

dferg

Quote from: OakleafCounty on May 19, 2015, 12:16:01 PM
I don't see how the bakery discriminated against the customer on the basis of their sexual orientation. The reason for refusal of service was the message on the cake and not the customers sexual orientation.  If the customer had ordered a normal cake they wouldn't have refused service and if a straight person had ordered the same image it would probably have been refused.

The cake shop has to make the cake because they are a cake shop.  If I ordered a cake that said 'I love Samantha', I am not asking the cake shop to endorse that message or ask if Samantha is my wife/girlfriend/bit on the side, just to make the cake.

A gay person shouldn't have to cower in all the shops asking if they would mind making a cake.

muppet

Quote from: armaghniac on May 19, 2015, 12:39:30 PM
I think it likely that churches will simply not be allowed do legal marriages at all and regular people will have trail to the registry office and pay extra.

Actually the Catholic Church in Ireland has threatened to withdraw facilitating civil ceremonies if the referendum is passed.
MWWSI 2017

Billys Boots

Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2015, 01:04:58 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 19, 2015, 12:39:30 PM
I think it likely that churches will simply not be allowed do legal marriages at all and regular people will have trail to the registry office and pay extra.

Actually the Catholic Church in Ireland has threatened to withdraw facilitating civil ceremonies if the referendum is passed.

Well that would be a win-win then! 
My hands are stained with thistle milk ...