https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-61873171
Quote
In the CCTV footage, Joyce could be seen standing on the street, outside the house in which he was living at that time.
Holding a slash-hook in one hand and plastic bottle filled with ammonia in the other, the footage captured Joyce engaging in what the Crown described as a "street battle" against brothers Gerard, John and Jimmy McDonagh.
Does the above mean there actually was a 4th (John Paul)? Anyway, not important.
QuoteSince his arrest following the death Mr McDonagh, Joyce made the case he was acting in self-defence and was protecting himself, his family and his home from an attack by the three brothers, who were armed with a knife, bottle and garden spade.
However, the jury rejected Joyce's claims of self-defence and found him guilty of murdering Mr McDonagh.
The father-of-three was also found unanimously guilty of wounding Gerard McDonagh during the same incident, possessing two weapons, namely the slash hook and bottle of ammonia, and a charge of causing an affray.
Since I've absolutely f**k all trust in the legal system to actually deliver justice - does anyone know the backstory beyond what some intern on BBC reported?
All scum who should be locked up. Such behaviour on a public street. Beggars belief. The usual shitehawk apologists will appear, it's not all travellers but it's no excuse.
Enoch Powell has spoken!
In the video the 3 lads were advancing on him.
Quote from: trailer on June 20, 2022, 07:51:06 PM
All scum who should be locked up. Such behaviour on a public street. Beggars belief. The usual shitehawk apologists will appear, it's not all travellers but it's no excuse.
Careful now. Colm will boot you out.
I haven't really followed this story or seen the video. But from reading the article at the top of the thread, it sounds like a man at his own home got into a street fight with three other men who arrived at his property.
Self defence sounds plausible.
But the bottle of amonia and a slash-hook? Who keeps that at home?
I'm sure no-one is completely innocent, but I would say if you show up at someone's house armed with a knife or spade and you come off the worse for it, it's difficult to have sympathy.
Maybe that's harsh as I don't know the story, but it doesn't seem like a clear case of murder to me.
Quote from: tbrick18 on June 21, 2022, 09:43:59 AM
I haven't really followed this story or seen the video. But from reading the article at the top of the thread, it sounds like a man at his own home got into a street fight with three other men who arrived at his property.
Self defence sounds plausible.
But the bottle of amonia and a slash-hook? Who keeps that at home?
I'm sure no-one is completely innocent, but I would say if you show up at someone's house armed with a knife or spade and you come off the worse for it, it's difficult to have sympathy.
Maybe that's harsh as I don't know the story, but it doesn't seem like a clear case of murder to me.
Agreed.
Not that this is a court of law, but what the point of this thread here?
I would have thought manslaughter due to self defence. But we don't know all the evidence. Interesting as there was a lot of discussion last week about the Deliveroo driver killing a teenager by using knife but acquitted of murder and manslaughter. I would have thought both cases were manslaughter.
Wonder is there a difference in law in both jurisdictions? Seems like self defence is hard to know whats allowed and what isn't.
Quote from: trailer on June 20, 2022, 07:51:06 PM
All scum who should be locked up. Such behaviour on a public street. Beggars belief. The usual shitehawk apologists will appear, it's not all travellers but it's no excuse.
I know it's a rule of this Board that you don't try to reveal Members' identity, but by any chance might you be Pritti Patel?
Im not familiar with British law but I always understood that murder was where you intentionally set out to kill someone and manslaughter was where you killed someone but didnt mean to kill them - you might have just been out to give them a hammering etc.
So striking someone on the leg with a slash hook falls into the 2nd category surely? I mean if you were trying to kill someone with it you'd hardly go for their leg?
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on June 21, 2022, 01:00:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 20, 2022, 07:51:06 PM
All scum who should be locked up. Such behaviour on a public street. Beggars belief. The usual shitehawk apologists will appear, it's not all travellers but it's no excuse.
I know it's a rule of this Board that you don't try to reveal Members' identity, but by any chance might you be Pritti Patel?
I'll stand up for the right of minorities all day long and when I say "scum" I am only referring to those involved in this incident and no one else from the travelling community but this type of behaviour is completely unacceptable.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on June 21, 2022, 11:05:38 AM
Not that this is a court of law, but what the point of this thread here?
https://www.gov.uk/reasonable-force-against-intruders
Very hard to know where exactly a homeowner would stand.
So has this fella been sentenced as such because he acted at the front gate? Should he have waited till they were inside the front door?
Or was there another thing we aren't aware of?
'cos if you have to wait till they are physically inside the house, then its not hard to envisage how a group of intruders could cut you off from any "dependent" family members inside the house.
What was to stop him doing what any normal person would do and get in the house and call the police? He hardly good intentions with a hook and a bottle of ammonia.
At the risk of getting banned. Are they a law unto themselves. We need to stop making excuses for the traveling community. If this had happened among the "settled" population. We would be appalled and demand justice. Welcome the travellers into a multi ethnic Irish society and expect them to abide by the laws of same.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on June 21, 2022, 11:03:44 PM
What was to stop him doing what any normal person would do and get in the house and call the police?
haha - very funny.
and do you ask them nicely to wait outside for the day or two it might take the peelers to turn up?
Get real. The police, outside a few population centres, may as well not exist.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on June 21, 2022, 11:03:44 PM
What was to stop him doing what any normal person would do and get in the house and call the police? He hardly good intentions with a hook and a bottle of ammonia.
Wouldn't have been much of him left by then
Quote from: Windmill abu on June 21, 2022, 11:36:20 PM
At the risk of getting banned. Are they a law unto themselves. We need to stop making excuses for the traveling community. If this had happened among the "settled" population. We would be appalled and demand justice. Welcome the travellers into a multi ethnic Irish society and expect them to abide by the laws of same.
I'd say they are no different the the lawless gangs out there who have no problems murdering people over drugs
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 22, 2022, 09:11:56 AM
Quote from: Windmill abu on June 21, 2022, 11:36:20 PM
At the risk of getting banned. Are they a law unto themselves. We need to stop making excuses for the traveling community. If this had happened among the "settled" population. We would be appalled and demand justice. Welcome the travellers into a multi ethnic Irish society and expect them to abide by the laws of same.
I'd say they are no different the the lawless gangs out there who have no problems murdering people over drugs
Completely agree. I grew up among many settled traveller families and they are no different to you or I. The difficulty is that whenever something like this happens, which is often enough, they are all lumped together. There is a certain level of lawlessness among them but w wonky hear of that side of them. There are many more just struggling to get through life like the rest of us.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 22, 2022, 09:48:42 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 22, 2022, 09:11:56 AM
Quote from: Windmill abu on June 21, 2022, 11:36:20 PM
At the risk of getting banned. Are they a law unto themselves. We need to stop making excuses for the traveling community. If this had happened among the "settled" population. We would be appalled and demand justice. Welcome the travellers into a multi ethnic Irish society and expect them to abide by the laws of same.
I'd say they are no different the the lawless gangs out there who have no problems murdering people over drugs
Completely agree. I grew up among many settled traveller families and they are no different to you or I. The difficulty is that whenever something like this happens, which is often enough, they are all lumped together. There is a certain level of lawlessness among them but w wonky hear of that side of them. There are many more just struggling to get through life like the rest of us.
Problem is we hear of crazy incidents like this, and much worse every week, in what is 'not' in the traveller community.
Much worse in fact.
Quote from: Itchy on June 21, 2022, 02:19:48 PM
Im not familiar with British law but I always understood that murder was where you intentionally set out to kill someone and manslaughter was where you killed someone but didnt mean to kill them - you might have just been out to give them a hammering etc.
So striking someone on the leg with a slash hook falls into the 2nd category surely? I mean if you were trying to kill someone with it you'd hardly go for their leg?
Sorry havent been on the board for a while or might have been able to assist. Can not comment on this case for reasons of privilege but can maybe assist with the more general issues.
At common law so in both jurisdictions to be guilty of murder two things must be proven. Firstly you must have done an act that has directly resulted in the death of an other and secondly when doing that act you must have had the intention to either kill or inflict really serious harm. So an individual can be successfully prosecuted for murder if they were only intending to give someone a really good hiding providing what they were intending to do amounted to really serious harm.
Quote from: full moon on June 21, 2022, 12:05:56 PM
I would have thought manslaughter due to self defence. But we don't know all the evidence. Interesting as there was a lot of discussion last week about the Deliveroo driver killing a teenager by using knife but acquitted of murder and manslaughter. I would have thought both cases were manslaughter.
Wonder is there a difference in law in both jurisdictions? Seems like self defence is hard to know whats allowed and what isn't.
Self defence is a full defence to murder, i.e. if you acted in self defence then you are not guilty of either murder or manslaughter. The law is actually pretty clear in this area, you are entitled to act with reasonable and proportionate force to what you honestly (as opposed to reasonably) believe is happening or going to happen. So for example it would be self defence if you stabbed someone because you honestly believed they had a gun and were going to shoot you but it wouldnt be self defence if you shot someone you thought was going to beat you up.
Self defence also doesn't give you carte blanche, so say if you incapacitated an assailant and removed their weapon you couldn't claim self defence if you then went on the kill them as at that point youd no longer be defending yourself
Self defence also applies if you are defending an other.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 21, 2022, 08:06:38 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on June 21, 2022, 11:05:38 AM
Not that this is a court of law, but what the point of this thread here?
https://www.gov.uk/reasonable-force-against-intruders
Very hard to know where exactly a homeowner would stand.
So has this fella been sentenced as such because he acted at the front gate? Should he have waited till they were inside the front door?
Or was there another thing we aren't aware of?
'cos if you have to wait till they are physically inside the house, then its not hard to envisage how a group of intruders could cut you off from any "dependent" family members inside the house.
Ahh the immigration act defence, rushed through parliament after the outcry over Tony Martin. As I explained above you are entitled under the law of self defence to act proportionally to what you honestly believe is happening. Provided that act is not disproportionate you may claim self defence. Under the Immigration Act defence you can claim defence of property provided your actions are not grossly disproportionate. So there's a little more wriggle room in what you may do to respond to someone you perceive attacking your property.
Whether it would have applied to Tony Martin who shot intruders in the back as they fled is open to some debate.