America`s Gun Culture

[muppet]

Declan posted a good article on poverty in the US a while back.

Here is another, this time about a white woman so we can avoid accusations of racism or counter-racism for the moment.

https://www.thenation.com/article/town-turned-poverty-prison-sentence/

Basically once the very poor get in debt to the city/county/state (say a parking ticket) they are often ruined by a never ending cycle of fines, then they are jailed for non-payment of fines (without court), they accrue a charge for each day in jail, followed by loss of employment because they are in jail and when they walk out, a new bigger debt to the city/county/state and it begins again.

The police, through no fault of their own, are instructed by the city/county/state authorities to extract this debt and this puts them disproportionally into conflict with the poor. The poor, in turn, are terrified of the cops because a broken tail-light can end your normal life.

[muppet]

This isn't a debate its a discussion.  I'd like to discuss and get your answer please? What do you do? Shoot or be shot?
What did you make of the cool and calm girlfriend who didn't once look back at her 4yr old child in the back seat but calmly talked through the situation...then fast forward to the news reports the next day and she's had her teeth whitened, extensions added to her hair and is an emotional wreck....then the horse drawn carriage with her draped over it..... whats that all about? this transformation?

If you are a cop and a suspect reaches for something in the car that may or may not be a gun - what do you do?

Ok let's start this properly.

Firstly, why are you calling him a 'suspect'? What is he suspected of doing?

[The Iceman]

This isn't a debate its a discussion.  I'd like to discuss and get your answer please? What do you do? Shoot or be shot?
What did you make of the cool and calm girlfriend who didn't once look back at her 4yr old child in the back seat but calmly talked through the situation...then fast forward to the news reports the next day and she's had her teeth whitened, extensions added to her hair and is an emotional wreck....then the horse drawn carriage with her draped over it..... whats that all about? this transformation?

If you are a cop and a suspect reaches for something in the car that may or may not be a gun - what do you do?

Ok let's start this properly.

Firstly, why are you calling him a 'suspect'? What is he suspected of doing?

I've read different reports online. The call in from the officer was that he was a possible suspect in an armed robbery and not pulled over for a tail light. But I'll retract the label "suspect" because it doesnt matter.
If you're a cop...approaching a vehicle and the owner of the vehicle knows that you need to have your license and registration ready like all vehicle owners should know in the U.S and the driver says I have a concealed weapons permit.... at this point your gun is drawn and you give instructions to keep your hands on the wheel, fingers separated...standard procedure....guy ignores you and reaches for the object on his lap... what do you do?

second question...your significant other gets shot by a cop...your 4 year old child is in the back seat...your significant other needs medical attention..what do you do?

[easytiger95]

This isn't a debate its a discussion.  I'd like to discuss and get your answer please? What do you do? Shoot or be shot?
What did you make of the cool and calm girlfriend who didn't once look back at her 4yr old child in the back seat but calmly talked through the situation...then fast forward to the news reports the next day and she's had her teeth whitened, extensions added to her hair and is an emotional wreck....then the horse drawn carriage with her draped over it..... whats that all about? this transformation?

If you are a cop and a suspect reaches for something in the car that may or may not be a gun - what do you do?

Ok let's start this properly.

Firstly, why are you calling him a 'suspect'? What is he suspected of doing?

I've read different reports online. The call in from the officer was that he was a possible suspect in an armed robbery and not pulled over for a tail light. But I'll retract the label "suspect" because it doesnt matter.
If you're a cop...approaching a vehicle and the owner of the vehicle knows that you need to have your license and registration ready like all vehicle owners should know in the U.S and the driver says I have a concealed weapons permit.... at this point your gun is drawn and you give instructions to keep your hands on the wheel, fingers separated...standard procedure....guy ignores you and reaches for the object on his lap... what do you do?

second question...your significant other gets shot by a cop...your 4 year old child is in the back seat...your significant other needs medical attention..what do you do?

You missed out - the gun is still on you and you are being faced by a cop who has already demonstrated he is willing to use lethal force - you keep very calm, for the sake of your child, so that the cop doesn't shoot again. Or perhaps you're already in shock, and you don't even know how you are reacting.

Not a whole pile of Christian compassion there for the plight of this innocent victim, or his traumatised girlfriend.

Let's deal in facts - Castillo was innocent, not just because of the presumption of innocence on which the American system is supposed to be built, but because he had not committed an armed robbery, nor have the police tried to indicate that he was involved in one. He had a gun which was legally held under the laws of the state, he was gainfully employed by the public schools system and if everyone in Ireland was to be shot for penalty points offences, I'd certainly have a few bullet holes in me.

If this was a white man, who was carrying a legally held gun, shot in this manner, the NRA would currently be burning down the Supreme Court. Yet nothing from them.

And your disgusting smears of a woman doing her best to survive an atrocious situation, where she obeyed all instructions given by this pumped up moron, have the same smell about them.

Facebook doesn't tell me what to think - it was merely a tool that provided the world with a window on this horrible crime. The medium is not the message.

If you really think that Black Lives Matter is a dangerous contagion in America, here's the best way of stopping it - make sure the police don't shoot unarmed men. And if you really thought all lives matter (which, by the way, your stated professions of piety on this board dictate that you do) you'd be on the streets with BLM - because i can guarantee you, that's where Jesus would be.

[muppet]

This isn't a debate its a discussion.  I'd like to discuss and get your answer please? What do you do? Shoot or be shot?
What did you make of the cool and calm girlfriend who didn't once look back at her 4yr old child in the back seat but calmly talked through the situation...then fast forward to the news reports the next day and she's had her teeth whitened, extensions added to her hair and is an emotional wreck....then the horse drawn carriage with her draped over it..... whats that all about? this transformation?

If you are a cop and a suspect reaches for something in the car that may or may not be a gun - what do you do?

Ok let's start this properly.

Firstly, why are you calling him a 'suspect'? What is he suspected of doing?

I've read different reports online. The call in from the officer was that he was a possible suspect in an armed robbery and not pulled over for a tail light. But I'll retract the label "suspect" because it doesnt matter.
If you're a cop...approaching a vehicle and the owner of the vehicle knows that you need to have your license and registration ready like all vehicle owners should know in the U.S and the driver says I have a concealed weapons permit.... at this point your gun is drawn and you give instructions to keep your hands on the wheel, fingers separated...standard procedure....guy ignores you and reaches for the object on his lap... what do you do?

second question...your significant other gets shot by a cop...your 4 year old child is in the back seat...your significant other needs medical attention..what do you do?

Firstly, the old dirty laywer trick of 'possible suspect in an armed robbery' .....'but it doesn't matter', I won't allow pass. Put up some evidence of that please.


Question 1:

What? Where are you getting this from? Why is the cop's gun drawn? How can you have your license and registration ready while keeping your hand on the wheel? The woman said in the video that he said to the cop that he had a gun and a permit, that the cop asked him to get the permit and then shot him for moving his hand to get it. The cops own defense now is that he was reaching for the gun, so the cop must have been told he had a gun by someone, logically this verifies that part of the woman's story. i.e. Castile told the cop about the gun.

Wouldn't an armed robber be better off shooting first and ask questions later? Instead of waiting for the cop to be a metre away with a gun pointed at him? If he planned to pull the gun and shoot the cop, why wait until he was an almost certain dead man?

Question 2:

Are you serious? The person beside you has just been shot and the man with the gun is still pointing it into your car? You expect the woman to behave to your version of normal? It is truly astonishing that is it HER behaviour that bothers you in all of this. Not only is her dead partner guilty of, well, no one seems to know, but she must be guilty as well.

I'll tell you what she is guilty of. Recording as much of the murder as possible on the phone. And that is what troubles you. So you are trying to turn her into some sort of criminal as well, because your narrative needs it.

[J70]

I would add, what difference does it make that the woman remained calm?

Maybe she was trying to keep calm for the child and not to alarm her dying man. Maybe the makeover meant she wanted to look her best to pay her respects to her dead boyfriend at his funeral (I wore a suit to my father's funeral). Maybe she is a cold, selfish, calculating narcissist who quickly saw that she had an opportunity for fame by filming the aftermath. Who cares?

The issue is the shooting death of her boyfriend and whether or not the police man can justify his actions.

[The Iceman]

This isn't a debate its a discussion.  I'd like to discuss and get your answer please? What do you do? Shoot or be shot?
What did you make of the cool and calm girlfriend who didn't once look back at her 4yr old child in the back seat but calmly talked through the situation...then fast forward to the news reports the next day and she's had her teeth whitened, extensions added to her hair and is an emotional wreck....then the horse drawn carriage with her draped over it..... whats that all about? this transformation?

If you are a cop and a suspect reaches for something in the car that may or may not be a gun - what do you do?

Ok let's start this properly.

Firstly, why are you calling him a 'suspect'? What is he suspected of doing?

I've read different reports online. The call in from the officer was that he was a possible suspect in an armed robbery and not pulled over for a tail light. But I'll retract the label "suspect" because it doesnt matter.
If you're a cop...approaching a vehicle and the owner of the vehicle knows that you need to have your license and registration ready like all vehicle owners should know in the U.S and the driver says I have a concealed weapons permit.... at this point your gun is drawn and you give instructions to keep your hands on the wheel, fingers separated...standard procedure....guy ignores you and reaches for the object on his lap... what do you do?

second question...your significant other gets shot by a cop...your 4 year old child is in the back seat...your significant other needs medical attention..what do you do?

You missed put - the gun is still on you and you are being faced by a cop who has already demonstrated he is willing to use lethal force - you keep very calm, for the sake of your child, so that the cop doesn't shoot again. Or perhaps you're already in shock, and you don't even know how you are reacting.

Not a whole pile of Christian compassion there for the plight of this innocent victim, or his traumatised girlfriend.

My point in this instance was she showed no traces of the emotion that is on show at every opportunity now.  Where was it at the time? For the sake of your child and yourself you reach for another object? I don't agree...

Let's deal in facts - Castillo was innocent, not just because of the presumption of innocence on which the American system is supposed to be built, but because he had not committed an armed robbery, nor have the police tried to indicate that he was involved in one. He had a gun which was legally held under the laws of the state, he was gainfully employed by the public schools system and if everyone in Ireland was to be shot for penalty points offenses, I'd certainly have a few bullet holes in me.

A concealed weapons permit does not allow you go carry a gun around on your lap in a car.  A concealed weapons permit allows a gun to be securely stored in a vehicle with the ammunition separate from the weapon.  The permit makes no difference in this case whatsoever.

If this was a white man, who was carrying a legally held gun, shot in this manner, the NRA would currently be burning down the Supreme Court. Yet nothing from them.

A white cop shot a white boy for driving away not so long ago... there are cops who make bad decisions everyday... in the case of the white boy he drove at the cop and got shot fatally.  Again, in this case, you don't reach for ANYTHING when a cop has a gun on you...

And your disgusting smears of a woman doing her best to survive an atrocious situation, where she obeyed all instructions given by this pumped up moron, have the same smell about them.

Facebook doesn't tell me what to think - it was merely a tool that provided the world with a window on this horrible crime. The medium is not the message.

If you really think that Black Lives Matter is a dangerous contagion in America, here's the best way of stopping it - make sure the police don't shoot unarmed men. And if you really thought all lives matter (which, by the way, your stated professions of piety on this board dictate that you do) you'd be on the streets with BLM - because you can guarantee that's where Jesus would be.

345,000 black lives are aborted in America every year. All lives matter. At all times. Neither of us know where Jesus would be.  But I do know he wouldn't be condoning shooting cops. He wouldn't be calling for violence.  He wouldn't be inciting hatred.

[muppet]

A concealed weapons permit does not allow you go carry a gun around on your lap in a car.

Could you show evidence that Castille had the gun on his lap please?

[The Iceman]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/philando-castile-police-shooting-cop-thought-he-was-robbery-suspect/
Report from Cops lawyer...

https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/mn-wallet-1.jpg?w=640&h=360
If he had the permit it should be in his wallet which is indicated in the picture. He instead reached to his right (image is inverted as being shot on facebook live)....

As a cop do you take the chance?

https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/mn-shooting-handgun-wallet.jpg?w=640&h=446

[muppet]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/philando-castile-police-shooting-cop-thought-he-was-robbery-suspect/
Report from Cops lawyer...

Seriously?

That is embarrassing Iceman.

https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/mn-wallet-1.jpg?w=640&h=360
If he had the permit it should be in his wallet which is indicated in the picture. He instead reached to his right (image is inverted as being shot on facebook live)....

As a cop do you take the chance?

You said "guy ignores you and reaches for the object on his lap". Now you say he reached to his right and show a picture which doesn't show any object on his lap.

https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/mn-shooting-handgun-wallet.jpg?w=640&h=446

And this takes the biscuit. So the gun, at least according to something called the conservativetreehouse, was on the same side as the wallet all along and was concealed.

Iceman, thank you for convincing me even more than I was before, because there was always the reasonable doubt factor. Your photos lessen that doubt substantially.

And by the way if you are in a job that involves risk, they yes you take the chance, otherwise get a safer job. Shooting black men because you are afraid of them is not a valid position to defend a cop with.

[The Iceman]

I withdrew the label "suspect".  I used it originally because there were mentions of it online that the officer suspected him of being the armed robber from an incident 4 days prior in a nearby store.  That person was armed.... Philando Castille was armed. There's something on his lap. You're a cop, right you are scared and you shoot.  I still don't know what you would do in the same situation where you make a choice to shoot or be shot...
It has been ruled preliminarily as a homicide it looks like and the officer has been placed on leave until finalized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpcxN9JsoN8

This didn't happen

[gallsman]

You're absolutely embarrassing yourself here, as if your attempt to drag the girlfriend into it because of the way she looks wasn't bad enough.

[muppet]

I withdrew the label "suspect".  I used it originally because there were mentions of it online that the officer suspected him of being the armed robber from an incident 4 days prior in a nearby store.  That person was armed.... Philando Castille was armed. There's something on his lap. You're a cop, right you are scared and you shoot.  I still don't know what you would do in the same situation where you make a choice to shoot or be shot...
It has been ruled preliminarily as a homicide it looks like and the officer has been placed on leave until finalized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpcxN9JsoN8

This didn't happen

The police said he wasn't a suspect for anything. The ONLY one saying that he was a suspect is the cop's lawyer. After the fact. Think about it Iceman. You are a scared cop and you pull over what you think is an armed robber. Do you call it in? Maybe wait for more info, or even back up?

You don't shoot innocent people otherwise you are not fit for the job. It doesn't matter what colour the victim is, you are not fit for the job.

While each case is different, and in itself a statical anomaly, the overall stats show that you are far more likely to be shot dead by a cop if you are black.

[The Iceman]

You're absolutely embarrassing yourself here, as if your attempt to drag the girlfriend into it because of the way she looks wasn't bad enough.

I questioned the girlfriend's intent. She is making a holy show of her grief when the camera is on and is so distraught she was able to get her hair done, teeth whitened and a makeover...
I think it's all being played up and she is adding to it when she is supposed to be a grieving girlfriend....

@ muppet
I agree with your deductions but I add that there is much more to it - it isn't cut and dry.  There is a real divide here - some say manufactured by politicians - either way its real and getting worse.

[muppet]

You're absolutely embarrassing yourself here, as if your attempt to drag the girlfriend into it because of the way she looks wasn't bad enough.

I questioned the girlfriend's intent. She is making a holy show of her grief when the camera is on and is so distraught she was able to get her hair done, teeth whitened and a makeover...
I think it's all being played up and she is adding to it when she is supposed to be a grieving girlfriend....

@ muppet
I agree with your deductions but I add that there is much more to it - it isn't cut and dry.  There is a real divide here - some say manufactured by politicians - either way its real and getting worse.

There sure is a real divide.

I am guessing by US standards your view would be seen by whites as moderate and quite normal, but I would also guess by non-US standards your views are seen as outrageous which might explain the reaction you get here.

Like I said, each individual case has its own circumstances, and thus is a statistical anomaly from which we shouldn't draw conclusions, but the overall trend about black deaths is undeniable. For example you defend the behaviour of the cop religiously but criticise the female passenger's behaviour. One kills someone, but is white, the other kills no one, but is black. See how this looks?



Anyway, I would like to know about the debt-cycle issue. I have only read about it recently and am completely shocked at the way this is handled. I am certain it applies to poor people of any colour but it seems Dickensian in nature and is hard to believe this goes on in the 21st Century, in the world's richest country. Do you know anything about it?