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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: Wildweasel74 on December 14, 2012, 06:00:57 PM

Title: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 14, 2012, 06:00:57 PM
When are Americans going to learn to ban guns, how many people are going to be killed until someone stand up to the NRA, another terrible tragedy unfolding in America, Simple solution, the NRA charm offensive solution will be to buy more guns, hows that help defenseless school children you idiots.When will someone take the bull by the horns and seriously tackle gun control even if it would cost them 1 term in the white house
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 14, 2012, 06:10:58 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 14, 2012, 06:00:57 PM
When are Americans going to learn to ban guns, how many people are going to be killed until someone stand up to the NRA, another terrible tragedy unfolding in America, Simple solution, the NRA charm offensive solution will be to buy more guns, hows that help defenseless school children you idiots.When will someone take the bull by the horns and seriously tackle gun control even if it would cost them 1 term in the white house

Listen to yourself, who the hell is going to give up a term in the white house????

The NRA are extremely powerful, this country beat the Brits with great aid given by militia's, gun culture is ingrained into their society and total gun control is never, and I repeat never going to happen in the USA.

Why any man needs a sub machine gun is beyond me, I coached a kid a few years back whose da is a multi millionaire seller of guns, he made the mistake of selling a gun to a bastard who ended up kiling people on a University campus, he has been under fire for years and the feds are building  a case against him because all was not well with the sale, the NRA are backing him to the hilt with not a penny from his own pocket being spent on his own defence.

I dont think anyone should own more than a shotgun or a small caliber pistol, but the yanks will always be able to by widowmakers of al shapes and sizes as it is written into their constitution that they have the right to bear arms, good luck taking that away from them.


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 14, 2012, 06:14:53 PM
That right to bear arms was back in the day when the wild west wasn't even discovered yet. How it still around 200yrs later when the west is wild no more, beats me. Its abit like a Orange man round here bleating on about his right to walks the queens highway cause he always done it. Way of life got to change with the times
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 14, 2012, 06:20:41 PM
It will never change. The NRA is too powerful and the issue so controversial that the Dems have given up on it. Sure even when Obama hasn't lifted a finger to do anything about guns, the right wing are frothing at the mouth about what they claim he WILL do, all to stir up the paranoid Neanderthals who form their base. Gun sales are through the roof because of what Obama is "going to do!"
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 14, 2012, 06:52:29 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 14, 2012, 06:20:41 PM
It will never change. The NRA is too powerful and the issue so controversial that the Dems have given up on it. Sure even when Obama hasn't lifted a finger to do anything about guns, the right wing are frothing at the mouth about what they claim he WILL do, all to stir up the paranoid Neanderthals who form their base. Gun sales are through the roof because of what Obama is "going to do!"

You are so right, the only neandertals are republican voters! ::)

Gun sales are not through the roof, that is bullshit.

Obama is toothless when it comes to gun control, this will test his leadership and we will see if he has it in him to attack the NRA, somebody needs to have the stones to do so, I fear none will.

I am all for a family having a small calibre pistol or even a shotgun if they hunt, after that I am opposed to people having guns in any form, they are un-necessary and for people to have semi automatic and automatic weapons is madness and a recipe for disaster.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 14, 2012, 06:54:13 PM
The gun business is booming. The question is, why?


BreBa | Getty Images
Smith & Wesson stock Friday was zooming, thanks to a stellar earnings report. The firearms maker also boosted its outlook for the rest of the year. Because of the strong business, its backlog of orders more than doubled from the same quarter last year, the company is concentrating on boosting production and building inventory.

"We are underserving the market at this moment, we all know that, and that's a great opportunity going forward for us," CEO James Debney said in a conference call with analysts.

And another gun maker, Sturm, Ruger & Co., also hit a milestone of sorts in terms of meeting consumer demand. It produced its one-millionth gun of the year...well ahead of last year's pace.

"It took us nearly all of 2011 to build one million firearms, but in 2012 we accomplished it on August 15th," said Ruger President and CEO Mike Fifer in a statement.

What's driving the demand that has gun makers cranking up production?

Speculation has focused on fears of a coming regulatory crackdown on gun ownership. Liberal administrations tend to be anti-gun and so, the thinking goes, an Obama re-election would set the stage for stricter gun purchasing requirements. Hence, people are buying now in anticipation of difficulty later.


Indeed, looking at background checks for gun sales (a metric commonly used to gauge general industry performance) 2009 showed a measureable increase that many attributed to Obama's election.

Is it the same this year? Some anecdotal evidence tends to bear that out.

"I should put Obama's picture on the wall up there," said one New Jersey gun salesman, asking not to be identified. "I'd name him salesman of the month!"

But it's not universal. Some suggest it may be less about regulatory worries and more about the immediate economy. (Related: Are You Better Off?)

"Sure, about a third of it is politics," said a Maryland salesman, who also didn't want to be named. "But the majority are people concerned about safety. They are worried about crime and looking at the economy and no one having jobs. They want to be protected now. So they're buying."

"The biggest new group of buyers now are senior citizens," Larry Hyatt, owner of a North Carolina gun shop, said on CNBC's "Closing Bell." "Ten thousand Baby Boomers a day are turning 65; they can't run, they can't fight, they got to shoot."

The motivation behind the rush could be key to how long the gun makers enjoy the surge in business. Fears of overregulation could dissipate rapidly after the current election season is over, since there was no major change to gun regulations after Obama was elected the first time. Indeed, one analyst downgraded Smith & Wesson and Ruger stock last month, citing fears that their torrid sales pace this year is unsustainable.

Not all analysts agree, however.

"We think there is broader drivers, broader acceptance of the use of guns and more target shooting," said Cai Von Rumohr, an analyst with Cowen & Co., also appearing on CNBC. "So we think it's more than just safety and more than just fear of not being able to buy guns."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: tyssam5 on December 14, 2012, 07:23:37 PM
Quote from: stew on December 14, 2012, 06:10:58 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 14, 2012, 06:00:57 PM
When are Americans going to learn to ban guns, how many people are going to be killed until someone stand up to the NRA, another terrible tragedy unfolding in America, Simple solution, the NRA charm offensive solution will be to buy more guns, hows that help defenseless school children you idiots.When will someone take the bull by the horns and seriously tackle gun control even if it would cost them 1 term in the white house

Listen to yourself, who the hell is going to give up a term in the white house????

The NRA are extremely powerful, this country beat the Brits with great aid given by militia's, gun culture is ingrained into their society and total gun control is never, and I repeat never going to happen in the USA.

Why any man needs a sub machine gun is beyond me, I coached a kid a few years back whose da is a multi millionaire seller of guns, he made the mistake of selling a gun to a b**tard who ended up kiling people on a University campus, he has been under fire for years and the feds are building  a case against him because all was not well with the sale, the NRA are backing him to the hilt with not a penny from his own pocket being spent on his own defence.

I dont think anyone should own more than a shotgun or a small caliber pistol, but the yanks will always be able to by widowmakers of al shapes and sizes as it is written into their constitution that they have the right to bear arms, good luck taking that away from them.

How're you going to hunt with those? Background checks and having guns secured even in your own house would be good starts.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 14, 2012, 07:27:56 PM
If today's events don't wake them up then nothing will.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 14, 2012, 07:36:17 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 14, 2012, 07:27:56 PM
If today's events don't wake them up then nothing will.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 14, 2012, 08:46:20 PM
Quote from: tyssam5 on December 14, 2012, 07:23:37 PM
Quote from: stew on December 14, 2012, 06:10:58 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 14, 2012, 06:00:57 PM
When are Americans going to learn to ban guns, how many people are going to be killed until someone stand up to the NRA, another terrible tragedy unfolding in America, Simple solution, the NRA charm offensive solution will be to buy more guns, hows that help defenseless school children you idiots.When will someone take the bull by the horns and seriously tackle gun control even if it would cost them 1 term in the white house

Listen to yourself, who the hell is going to give up a term in the white house????

The NRA are extremely powerful, this country beat the Brits with great aid given by militia's, gun culture is ingrained into their society and total gun control is never, and I repeat never going to happen in the USA.

Why any man needs a sub machine gun is beyond me, I coached a kid a few years back whose da is a multi millionaire seller of guns, he made the mistake of selling a gun to a b**tard who ended up kiling people on a University campus, he has been under fire for years and the feds are building  a case against him because all was not well with the sale, the NRA are backing him to the hilt with not a penny from his own pocket being spent on his own defence.

I dont think anyone should own more than a shotgun or a small caliber pistol, but the yanks will always be able to by widowmakers of al shapes and sizes as it is written into their constitution that they have the right to bear arms, good luck taking that away from them.

How're you going to hunt with those? Background checks and having guns secured even in your own house would be good starts.

All right, i forgot to add a hunting rifle.

If someone was breaking into your home you need to have the ability to get at your weapon (if you have one) quickly, I have a gun, albeit a small caliber weapon and I hav e a safety lock on it at all times, it is never loaded however the bullets are close at hand, ov er here you have to assume burgulars are armed, and if they come into our house they are going to get a gun pointed at their heads.

I am not going to take any chances with some fcuker breaking into our place, who knows what they would do once in there, i have three wemen in the house, their safety is paramount.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 14, 2012, 09:27:40 PM
would you believe this is actually a statistics problem?

The main issue here is that people are absolutely crap at processing probabilities. in general- and probabilities of things happening to them are processed even worse. And its just coincidence that the Gun lobby preys on your fears (AKA LIES) and your complete and utter lack of comprehension of statistics.

see here for info http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-our-brains-do-not-intuitively-grasp-probabilities

so people buy guns, because in their opinion, rather than have an alarm in the house, they are safer with a gun. they have seen movies and tv shows where the home owner hears a noise, stirs, goes over to the locked gun cupboard unlocks it- goes to the separate ammunition storage unlocks it, arms and checks the weapon, and stealthily makes his way downstairs just in time to shoot( knock out the intruder with the butt of his gun depending on the target audience) and hence prevent the intruder from raping the pretty house guest, saving the day, and she marries him and they all live happily ever. They saw it on tv, therefore it must be true.

So the manufacturers of guns and the NRA promote the home safety angle- and self defense
(because -goodness me- someone could pull a gun on you at any time. but if you have your own gun well then after the other guy pulls a knife on you rather than shit yourself, you are the type of guy who in one smooth and assured move could reach down into your conveniently open jacket past your beer belly into the shoulder holster that you wear at all times and pull, remove the safety and aim at the baddie quicker than he can react and save him making off with the 70 bucks, the 100 dollar watch and two maxed out credit cards you have in your wallet. Not only that but you have the stones to live with the consequences of killing some poor bastard who was at the end of his tether over 70 dollars and feel you did the right thing in taking his life and experience no depression or guilt.

Fortunately no one ever breaks into an unoccupied home and steals guns to use them in other crimes. Nor do children find and play with loaded guns left in dumb places by dumb people. Neither do drunk dumbasses pull out their self defence guns in a rage in a domestic dispute/ or disagreements over whether there was a realistic chance of a waking dead style zombie invasion  http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/li_man_shot_girlfriend_in_fight_iFYGRBVup4AJhCEOdD64EI)

"You cant take my slaves guns. It's my constitutional right to own as many slaves guns as I can afford. I take care of my slaves guns, I look after my slaves guns, nothing bad has ever happened to my slaves guns, or because of my slaves guns. If people have a problem with my slaves guns it is because they are un-American and un-patriotic. I will fight a civil war for my right to have slaves guns."

                          John Q Dumas 1861 2012
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on December 15, 2012, 01:03:07 AM
Brilliant post, heganboy.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Niall Quinn on December 15, 2012, 01:54:38 AM
On the theme of statistics (certainly not intended in support of the NRA lobby), does the US gun control issue get undue international attention?
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate):

2010 United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime - homicide rate per year per 100,000 inhabitants

Worldwide - 6.9

US - 4.2
Canada - 1.6
Ireland - 1.2
Honduras - 91.6
Ivory Coast -56.9
Germany - 0.8

I don't mean to make light of today's horrific event in any way.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: tyssam5 on December 15, 2012, 02:07:26 AM
Quote from: Niall Quinn on December 15, 2012, 01:54:38 AM
On the theme of statistics (certainly not intended in support of the NRA lobby), does the US gun control issue get undue international attention?
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate):

2010 United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime - homicide rate per year per 100,000 inhabitants

Worldwide - 6.9

US - 4.2
Canada - 1.6
Ireland - 1.2
Honduras - 91.6
Ivory Coast -56.9
Germany - 0.8

I don't mean to make light of today's horrific event in any way.

It's true that gun crime in the USA is at 20 year low. No reason to continue to make assault rifles available over the counter though.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 15, 2012, 02:11:31 AM
You would not believe the number of people who I had believed rational human beings whose response to this tragedy is to call for "conceal and carry" permits for teachers and principals...

Yep that's right, in their considered opinion, arming the teachers with concealed firearms would have prevented this...

Yep, I want to send my kids to a school with armed teachers, that sounds reasonable. I can't see anything wrong with the logic in that argument.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on December 15, 2012, 03:38:35 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 14, 2012, 06:14:53 PM
That right to bear arms was back in the day when the wild west wasn't even discovered yet. How it still around 200yrs later when the west is wild no more, beats me. Its abit like a Orange man round here bleating on about his right to walks the queens highway cause he always done it. Way of life got to change with the times
I think it's the same thing. Ulster and America were both settled with extreme violence and it is not always easy for the modern society to lose  the history. The modern US has a problem with violence (although not generally for people who are comfortably off)

  http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/oct/11/prison-rape-obamas-program-stop-it/

I think a lot of suicides are because of the guns as well. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 15, 2012, 01:11:46 PM
Quote from: stew on December 14, 2012, 06:52:29 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 14, 2012, 06:20:41 PM
It will never change. The NRA is too powerful and the issue so controversial that the Dems have given up on it. Sure even when Obama hasn't lifted a finger to do anything about guns, the right wing are frothing at the mouth about what they claim he WILL do, all to stir up the paranoid Neanderthals who form their base. Gun sales are through the roof because of what Obama is "going to do!"

You are so right, the only neandertals are republican voters! ::)

Didn't say that, but the right certainly has a preponderance of the knuckle-dragging element of US society. They're already coming out with the predictable "arm teachers" bullshit and calling Obama's tears fake and a cynical attempt to set the stage. We can discuss other issues if you like.

Quote from: stew on December 14, 2012, 06:52:29 PM
Gun sales are not through the roof, that is bullshit.

HB has already posted something about that.

I can dig up more if you like. Its been very widely covered in the media.

Quote from: stew on December 14, 2012, 06:52:29 PM
Obama is toothless when it comes to gun control, this will test his leadership and we will see if he has it in him to attack the NRA, somebody needs to have the stones to do so, I fear none will.

I am all for a family having a small calibre pistol or even a shotgun if they hunt, after that I am opposed to people having guns in any form, they are un-necessary and for people to have semi automatic and automatic weapons is madness and a recipe for disaster.

No argument with any of that!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on December 15, 2012, 02:12:40 PM
Excellent post Heganboy - borrowed
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 21, 2012, 04:12:25 PM
Holy shit- the NRA are having a press conference saying that we need armed guards at our schools. By telling people that schools are gun free zones, that killers go there for maximum impact because they wont be stopped by armed people there.

I have never seen anything like this, they should have stayed out of it, this is the worst PR possible. Absolutely the worst press conference I have ever seen, worse than Gadaffi's guy saying the Americans are on the run...

Oh- and the media- their fault

and the video games industry their fault too- we (the NRA) found an online game called kindergarten killers, can you believe it- they are to blame...

We need more guns to make us safe
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on December 21, 2012, 04:15:08 PM
This press conference is unreal. This man is deluded and his fake concern is sickening.

Good to see another protester make it to the front of the stage
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 21, 2012, 04:16:39 PM
holy shit

"the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good gun with a gun"

someone with a gun 1 minute away is better than someone on the 911 call 10 minutes away
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on December 21, 2012, 04:23:03 PM
This keeps getting better.

"Every school needs an armed policeman before the kids go back to school in January"
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on December 21, 2012, 04:26:02 PM
The NRA "Eddie Eagle" gun safety video....
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 21, 2012, 04:26:20 PM
"I call on congress to ensure there are armed police officers in every school in America when they return after the holidays"

"the NRA will as the pre-eminent trainer in the USA is standing by ready and willing to help with this effort"

the NRA will help with secure design of schools and design of the school shield program, and the former head of the DEA will run the program for the NRA

"if we cherish our kids more than our money, then we must give them the best protection possibly which is properly trained armed personnel in every school"

I am very f**king scared right now
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 21, 2012, 05:03:40 PM
Quote from: heganboy on December 21, 2012, 04:16:39 PM
holy shit

"the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good gun with a gun"

someone with a gun 1 minute away is better than someone on the 911 call 10 minutes away

The next step is to arm the kids because the teacher would obviously be just that bit further away. Family pets could carry remotely activated incendiary devices so Dad or Mom can blow up the bad guy from a meeting at work.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on December 21, 2012, 05:32:53 PM
Quote from: heganboy on December 21, 2012, 04:26:20 PM
"I call on congress to ensure there are armed police officers in every school in America when they return after the holidays"

"the NRA will as the pre-eminent trainer in the USA is standing by ready and willing to help with this effort"

the NRA will help with secure design of schools and design of the school shield program, and the former head of the DEA will run the program for the NRA

"if we cherish our kids more than our money, then we must give them the best protection possibly which is properly trained armed personnel in every school"

I am very f**king scared right now

That is so stupid.- All they care about is protecting their cashflow and influence.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on December 21, 2012, 06:06:58 PM
The scary part in all of this for me anyway, is that through religion and politics, the NRA have successfully brainwashed so many people into believing that they are correct on all the above.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 21, 2012, 06:24:57 PM
Come to think of it, if all the teachers carried guns, indiscipline might become a thing of the past. There might be something in this.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on December 21, 2012, 06:27:24 PM
At least four people are reported dead after a shooter opened fire early Friday in Frankstown Township in Central Pennsylvania.

The Altoona Mirror reports that the gunman, whose name has not yet been released, was killed during the shooting. Blair County District Attorney Richard Consiglio confirms that additionally two other men and a woman are now dead.

According to the Tribune-Review, investigators believe the shooter may have opened fire on random people while riding in a vehicle. When he encountered law enforcement, a shootout began.

Two Pennsylvania State Troopers were injured during the shootout the Wheeling News-Register reports shortly after noon local time on Friday. A third officer was injured in a car crash during the ordeal.

http://rt.com/usa/news/four-dead-pennsylvania-injured-598/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on December 21, 2012, 06:52:51 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 21, 2012, 06:27:24 PM
At least four people are reported dead after a shooter opened fire early Friday in Frankstown Township in Central Pennsylvania.

The Altoona Mirror reports that the gunman, whose name has not yet been released, was killed during the shooting. Blair County District Attorney Richard Consiglio confirms that additionally two other men and a woman are now dead.

According to the Tribune-Review, investigators believe the shooter may have opened fire on random people while riding in a vehicle. When he encountered law enforcement, a shootout began.

Two Pennsylvania State Troopers were injured during the shootout the Wheeling News-Register reports shortly after noon local time on Friday. A third officer was injured in a car crash during the ordeal.

http://rt.com/usa/news/four-dead-pennsylvania-injured-598/
Obviously if the local school principal had a drone operated out of Microsoft Word nobody would have died.
I wonder if the economic crisis is linked to all the recent killings. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: theticklemister on December 21, 2012, 09:11:23 PM
I think this maybe is the only topic that everybody on the board are in agreement with!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 22, 2012, 07:08:01 PM
Seen on twitter:

Q: How many NRA members does it take to screw in a lightbulb?













A: More guns!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 22, 2012, 09:27:58 PM
The NRA are a shower of useless hoors, who is going to pay for "armed Personnel" at every school?

Giving teachers guns sums up the NRA, they are like the tobacco companies of the 70's and 80's in that they promote a product that is detrimental to the health of many people and they only care about accumulating more wealth and spreading propaganda to a willing and naive citizenry.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 23, 2012, 10:42:53 AM
Very good post Fionn.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnneycool on December 24, 2012, 09:40:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 21, 2012, 05:32:53 PM
Quote from: heganboy on December 21, 2012, 04:26:20 PM
"I call on congress to ensure there are armed police officers in every school in America when they return after the holidays"

"the NRA will as the pre-eminent trainer in the USA is standing by ready and willing to help with this effort"

the NRA will help with secure design of schools and design of the school shield program, and the former head of the DEA will run the program for the NRA

"if we cherish our kids more than our money, then we must give them the best protection possibly which is properly trained armed personnel in every school"

I am very f**king scared right now

That is so stupid.- All they care about is protecting their cashflow and influence.

I stumbled upon that NRA news briefing on the RTÉ news channel on friday afternoon and thought it was so surreal as to be unbelievable, but it was real.

I'm almost certain they suggested getting armed volunteers to patrol their local schools trained by the  NRA, my good god, unbelievable to anyone outside the states. Then it was suggested that the big bad federal government should pay for an armed police officer for each school,  why not tax the fúck out of gun purchases to compensate the parents affected by these murders?

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 24, 2012, 06:18:56 PM
I see a couple of fire fighters have been shot while attending a fire early this morning, am sure the NRA response will be "If they had been armed".  I see orders for machine guns, bullets etc have went through he roof in the past two weeks. Americans, definitely a strange species.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 24, 2012, 06:23:02 PM
sorry my mistake, Brownell (bullet manufacturer) confirmed they have sold 3 and 1/2 yrs of magazines in 3 days.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on December 29, 2012, 09:21:05 PM
Number of people killed by guns in US since Newtown Massacre: 303

Ooops, my mistake.  Guns don't kill people, bullets do.

Since I posted about half an hour ago, it's up to 306.

Now 321.  Wonder how high that'll be by New Year's Day.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: ziggysego on December 30, 2012, 11:26:03 AM
306!? That's crazy! Where'd you source this? The US truly is a sick nation.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on December 30, 2012, 04:33:40 PM
Ziggy, I read it on Slate.  They've been posting updated tallies.  A fierce number, for sure.  The link is

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/12/gun_death_tally_every_american_gun_death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on December 31, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
Surely the fact that this guys mother had guns which didn't stop her son killing her voids any argument the pro-gun lobby have about guns being used to protect people. Didn't do her much good.

More importantly since when has the right to bear arms become more important than the right to life, especially the right to life for a child.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on January 02, 2013, 10:57:45 PM
Gun deaths in US since Newtown shooting is now apparently 393.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on January 03, 2013, 12:34:20 AM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on December 31, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
Surely the fact that this guys mother had guns which didn't stop her son killing her voids any argument the pro-gun lobby have about guns being used to protect people. Didn't do her much good.

More importantly since when has the right to bear arms become more important than the right to life, especially the right to life for a child.

This isn't an argument. If it were there might be some hope.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on January 04, 2013, 09:11:43 PM
According to Slate, the gun death total in the US since the Newtown shooting is now apparently 427.  I am floored by this number, though I would like to know the circumstances of those deaths--suicides, home defenses, robberies, domestic disputes and so on.  Any way you look at it, though, that's an alarming number.  And with the fear that Obama might just enact more stringent gun control legislation, sales of high-powered weaponry is now soaring.  So, Happy New Year with this uplifting 1,000th post on my part.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on January 04, 2013, 11:23:24 PM
Here is an example of a friend of mine on FB - these are his typical posts on the subject - obviously he is NRA Pro Guns:
Quote
Remember it's the police we have to trust..... Just like New Orleans citizens trusted theirs when they took away law abiding citizens guns and then a few days later the police again forcibly raped, stole and took advantage of people that couldn't defend themselves!!

QuoteThis is what happens when you take away guns from law abiding citizens. Doesn't solve the violent crime just makes it worse. Anyone that thinks that it will solve all our issues when it reality it makes them worse. Criminals will always break the law nothing will stop them. Just like making drugs illegal hasn't stopped people from using.

QuoteJust as an FYI also the gunman that killed all those people on Colorado a few months back did you know he went specifically to a theater that guns are not allowed. The theater owner by his right didn't want them in his theater which he has a right to do. The shooter had a theater that was right next to where he lived. That one allowed guns via concealed carry laws that Colorado has. The gunman didn't go there because it was a good change he wouldn't have gotten off one round. As for me if I was allowed to carry legally I would and you better believe if that shooter went into the theater next to his house that he wouldn't have killed so many. The issue isn't guns its what is making people so unhappy that they want to kill!! The issue is we have a rampant mental illness issue not be resolved with our citizens.

This is a normal lad I know from the parish.Good family man, God-fearing, down to earth do anything for you type of lad.

Theres no hope for the country I think.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: theticklemister on January 06, 2013, 09:37:02 AM
Four more shot dead in Aouroa. The same town as the cinema shootings.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on January 08, 2013, 01:31:11 PM
Hoping to "strike the fear of God in the gun-grabbing politicians on both sides of the aisle" and thus prove they're not about to just roll over and die (no pun intended) amidst all this silly fuss about those poor children at Sandy Hook being massacred because there wasn't enough firepower available at that  school which we all know would have stopped it all even though that's never worked before, a new coalition of gun advocates and conservatives have sensibly declared Jan. 19, right before Obama's inauguration, "Gun Appreciation Day," wherein supporters are called on to line up "around the block" at gun stores, gun counters, gun shows, and gun ranges to protest the inexcusable "post Sandy Hook assault on gun rights" by an Obama administration that "has shown that it is more than willing to trample the Constitution to impose its dictates upon the American people" by denying us our right to die a bloody, pointless death at the unregulated hands of unbalanced gun-owners, much like our right to die from lack of affordable health care, and besides, freedom and values and tyranny and. The same day, the NRA is hosting a tutorial for Nevada elected officials only on the wonders of semi-automatics. Same justifications. Sigh.
(http://www.commondreams.org/sites/commondreams.org/files/imce-images/guns_ad_130107b-615x345.jpg)

"If, as this president claims, the American people are at risk from murderous rampagers, the logical solution is to arm, not present a docile target." - the enlightened folks organizing this event.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on January 10, 2013, 05:55:37 PM
728 people now dead from guns since Sandy Hook (as of 11/8/2013).  Should hit the 1000 mark pretty soon.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnneycool on January 11, 2013, 08:28:29 AM
Another school attack in California yesterday, luckily only one student was shot and is in a critical condition. A teacher is said to have talked the gunman out of it..

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/11/uk-usa-shooting-california-idUKBRE90910T20130111 (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/11/uk-usa-shooting-california-idUKBRE90910T20130111)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 09:31:07 AM
http://www.progressive.org/banning-semi-automatic-weapons-not-enough

America, the Violent: Banning Semi-Automatic Weapons Is Not Enough

By Matthew Rothschild, January 11, 2013

I'm all for Pres. Obama's and Gov. Cuomo's efforts to ban semi-automatic rifles and high-capacity magazines, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that this is going to make much of a dent in the gruesome gun death toll in America.
Every year, about 31,000 people in the United States die from gun violence.

When you examine that shocking figure, a few surprising facts pop up.

First, almost two-thirds of those killed by guns are people who commit suicide. About 19,000 in total.

Then, of the 11,000 homicides, the vast majority of these are with handguns, not semi-automatic rifles.

And of the 600 fatal accidents with guns, semi-automatic rifles are not responsible for many of those, either.

As a result, much of the effort, following the horror at Sandy Hook and Aurora, won't really get at the underlying problems of gun violence in America.

One of those problems is the illegal drug trade. If we legalized drugs, the gun violence in our cities would go way down.

Another problem is the lack of awareness of the warning signs about suicide. As the saying goes, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and the Surgeon General and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention should do a public education campaign to make us all more attuned to those warning signs.

And finally there's the violence-soaked culture we live in—and I'm not taking the easy way out by blaming Hollywood or video games.

No, I'm talking about our blood-soaked history: the extermination of Native Americans, the imposing of slavery on African Americans, and the running of an empire that lives war to war and inures us to violence.

Starting with the war against the Philippines in 1898, when Pres. McKinley vowed to Christianize the Filipino people and killed 500,000 civilians in the process, the U.S. empire has stacked the corpses high. The multiple U.S. invasions of Latin America and the Caribbean, and the U.S. support for dictators there, cost hundreds of thousands of lives over the last century. The atomic bombing of Japan was a muscle-flex of empire, most recently demonstrated by Oliver Stone in his epic "Untold History of the United States." During the Vietnam war, the United States killed between two and three million people in IndoChina. U.S. support for the dictatorship in Indonesia in the 1960s and 1970s cost close to a million lives. George W. Bush's war on Iraq also killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. And Barack Obama's escalation of the war in Afghanistan—and his all-out use of drones—has caused many innocent people to die, even as he bemoans gun violence.

Knowing somewhere deep down of the atrocities we are responsible for has corroded our collective conscience and helped make violence the American pastime. So yes, by all means, let's ban semi-automatic weapons and high-capacity ammunition.

But let's get to the bottom of America the violent, while we're at it.

(Matthew Rothschild is the editor of The Progressive magazine. He is indebted to Kevin Alexander Gray for helping him think through this issue.)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: ballinaman on January 16, 2013, 10:32:57 PM
Piers Morgan and some absolute pro gun notjob.....jaw dropping stuff all the way through the interview...crazy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWQPZ-taYBs
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on January 17, 2013, 11:21:05 PM
Wow, Ballnaman, I'm no Piers Morgan fan, but I admire his poise, equanimity and unwillingness to chase that jerk down every one of his rabbit holes.

It's a month since Sandy Hook, and 1,046 people have suffered gun deaths in the US.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: tyrone exile on January 18, 2013, 12:45:29 AM
I only thought the nolan show was bad last night, can you imagine if the american flag was took down from a city hall?
Its the same problem as here, People who are either not educated or very poorly educated are targeted with issues to stir up support for organisations, In America there told that there trying to take away the second amendment, just so the NRA can remain so wealthy and powerful. Here Unionists have used the flags issue to try to regain a seat which they were probably going to win back anyway. Its all fairly depressing that people can be pulled in by such sound bites!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on January 18, 2013, 03:33:48 PM
I couldnt believe the rants of that guy on the Piers Morgan show, thanks for posting. Piers was definitely shitting himself, that was one angry raving lunatic.
All bought up in the conspiracy theories and completely anti government. Couldn't believe his threats for the Republic to rise up if they tried to take their guns.... crazy stuff
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on January 18, 2013, 04:35:54 PM
Quote from: ballinaman on January 16, 2013, 10:32:57 PM
Piers Morgan and some absolute pro gun notjob.....jaw dropping stuff all the way through the interview...crazy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWQPZ-taYBs

Holy Moly! Crazy people on TV to explain why the crazy people have guns.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on January 18, 2013, 05:05:49 PM
Whoooo-hoooo!
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/854183 (http://www.tubechop.com/watch/854183)

The prophet in the window (and the neighbours' dog)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HIP1wTLwuQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HIP1wTLwuQ)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: theticklemister on February 03, 2013, 01:06:37 PM
Whats the oul saying about swings and roundabouts...........


former US Navy SEAL who wrote a best-selling book about his experiences as a sniper has been fatally shot along with another man on a Texas gun range.

'American Sniper' author Chris Kyle, 38, and a second man were found dead at Rough Creek Lodge's shooting range in Glen Rose, Erath County Sheriff Tommy Bryant said.

Witnesses said a gunman opened fire on the men, then fled in a pickup truck belonging to one of the victims, according to the Star-Telegram.

The newspapers said a 25-year-old man was later taken into custody in Lancaster, southeast of Dallas, and that charges were expected.

Glen Rose is about 80 miles (128 kilometers) southwest of Dallas.

Mr Kyle wrote the best-selling book, 'American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History,' detailing his 150-plus kills of insurgents from 1999 to 2009.

Investigators did not immediately release the name of the second victim.

Mr Kyle was sued by former Minnesota Governer and ex-professional wrestler Jesse Ventura over a portion of the book that claims Kyle punched Ventura in a 2006 bar fight over unpatriotic remarks.

Mr Ventura says the punch never happened and that the claim by Kyle defamed him.

Mr Kyle had asked that Ventura's claims of invasion of privacy and "unjust enrichment" be dismissed, saying there was no legal basis for them.

However, a federal judge said the lawsuit should proceed. Both sides were told to be ready for trial by 1 August.

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Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: theticklemister on February 03, 2013, 01:15:53 PM
Efforts to free a five-year-old boy from a gu n ma n in an un d ergro u n d bu n ke r in rur al

A 'm e a n ma n'

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Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 22, 2013, 02:41:18 PM
The looney left, in full flight, Obama has a case to answer on this one!!!!

Dont get me started on that cnut Pelosi, I absolutely hate that bitch as much as I did Thatcher back in the day!Pelosi Backs Obama on Secret Execution of Americans Without Trial

House Democrat leader Rep. Nancy Pelosi of California is under fire from across the political spectrum after admitting in an interview, among a host of other controversial positions, that she was not opposed to President Obama's secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges. She also claimed that, depending on the timing and situation, it was acceptable for the executive branch to simply "disappear" Americans and keep it secret — a wildly unconstitutional notion that even most Third World dictators would never dare support publicly.


I hope Pelosi disappears the hoor!!!



Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on February 22, 2013, 02:55:39 PM
Quote from: stew on February 22, 2013, 02:41:18 PM
The looney left, in full flight, Obama has a case to answer on this one!!!!

Dont get me started on that cnut Pelosi, I absolutely hate that bitch as much as I did Thatcher back in the day!Pelosi Backs Obama on Secret Execution of Americans Without Trial

House Democrat leader Rep. Nancy Pelosi of California is under fire from across the political spectrum after admitting in an interview, among a host of other controversial positions, that she was not opposed to President Obama's secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges. She also claimed that, depending on the timing and situation, it was acceptable for the executive branch to simply "disappear" Americans and keep it secret — a wildly unconstitutional notion that even most Third World dictators would never dare support publicly.


I hope Pelosi disappears the hoor!!!

You have of course information demonstrating that President Obama has carried out secret executions of US citizens without a trial or even charges?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 22, 2013, 03:27:13 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on February 22, 2013, 02:55:39 PM
Quote from: stew on February 22, 2013, 02:41:18 PM
The looney left, in full flight, Obama has a case to answer on this one!!!!

Dont get me started on that cnut Pelosi, I absolutely hate that bitch as much as I did Thatcher back in the day!Pelosi Backs Obama on Secret Execution of Americans Without Trial

House Democrat leader Rep. Nancy Pelosi of California is under fire from across the political spectrum after admitting in an interview, among a host of other controversial positions, that she was not opposed to President Obama's secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges. She also claimed that, depending on the timing and situation, it was acceptable for the executive branch to simply "disappear" Americans and keep it secret — a wildly unconstitutional notion that even most Third World dictators would never dare support publicly.


I hope Pelosi disappears the hoor!!!

You have of course information demonstrating that President Obama has carried out secret executions of US citizens without a trial or even charges?

Eh the killings have not started yet, the disappearing of citizens has not begun as of yet, but the looney left will endorse this and the republicans will be happy to provide the training and weapons to make it happen! feck the lot of them!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on February 22, 2013, 03:31:07 PM
The way it is phrased makes it looks like it's already happened. How can it be 'President Obama's secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges' if he has never done any such thing? Especially when you add that he has a case to answer on this one.

It would have been far more accurate, and less intentionally ambiguous if the report had said she WOULD NOT be opposed to ANY PRESIDENT having a policy of secret executions of US Citizens.

Even then, I'd like to see the direct quote.

What's the source for this extract stew?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on February 22, 2013, 03:39:31 PM
I found it Stew. It's from a website called the 'New American', here's the full article.

QuoteHouse Democrat leader Rep. Nancy Pelosi of California is under fire from across the political spectrum after admitting in an interview, among a host of other controversial positions, that she was not opposed to President Obama's secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges. She also claimed that, depending on the timing and situation, it was acceptable for the executive branch to simply "disappear" Americans and keep it secret — a wildly unconstitutional notion that even most Third World dictators would never dare support publicly. 

The Obama administration, of course, admits to believing it has the power to legitimately murder anyone, anywhere, anytime — no charges, trial, jury, or due process are needed. Americans have known about the murderous program for years, but more facts about it were exposed recently when an apparently leaked memo from the Justice Department "justifying" the murders hit the headlines earlier this month. The incredible document purporting to legalize extrajudicial assassinations shocked even the president's most slavish supporters.

Speaking to the extremely Democrat-friendly Huffington Post, however, the former Speaker of the House said she was not even sure whether the Obama administration should tell the public when it lawlessly executes an American. "Maybe," she told the liberal media outlet after being asked if the government ought to acknowledge murdering U.S. citizens with a drone strike after the deed is done. "It just depends." What it "depends" on was not immediately clear.

Rep. Pelosi, who infamously said the deeply unpopular ObamaCare would have to be passed so the American people could find out what was in it, cited public opinion as one reason that lawmakers have allowed the president to unconstitutionally become judge, jury, and executioner without much protest. "It's interesting how popular it is in the public," she claimed about Obama's extrajudicial assassination program.

The administration's lawless policy, as The New American's Joe Wolverton has documented extensively, has already claimed the lives of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of innocent civilians in Pakistan, Yemen, Afghanistan, Somalia, and other nations. Even an American teenager, 16-year-old Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, was assassinated by a drone strike under the administration's program without ever being so much as charged with a crime.

Pelosi, though, despite her oath of office, apparently relies on public opinion rather than the Constitution she swore to uphold — at least if it is to support Obama and his radical agenda. "People just want to be protected," she told the Huffington Post. "And I saw that when we were fighting them on surveillance, the domestic surveillance. People just want to be protected: 'You go out there and do it. I'll criticize you, but I want to be protected.'"

When former President George W. Bush was in office, Democrats rightfully condemned his lawless activities — spying on Americans without a warrant, torturing suspects, and even murdering people with drones. Under Obama, however, despite the fact that his administration has gone far beyond what even the Bush administration was doing, serious Democrat criticism of the rogue and unlawful executive-branch activities has all but ceased to exist.

The former House speaker, however, denied that she or her party were hypocritical. "Those opposed are pretty critical, and other people are just listening to see what this is and why this is necessary, because we're in a different world," Pelosi claimed, disputing the idea that Democrats are less critical of the mass-murder program than they would have been if a Republican were in the White House.

Apparently, then, the establishment wing of both parties agrees: Despite the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, the president now has the power to secretly murder or indefinitely detain anyone, including Americans, anywhere in the world at any time. They also seem to agree that no justification is necessary and that the public does not even have to be informed.

In terms of Obama secretly "disappearing" Americans, Rep. Pelosi, while apparently appearing "conflicted," confirmed that she thought it was essentially alright. "It depends on the situation," she said. "Maybe it depends on the timing, because that's right — it's all about timing, imminence. What is it that could be in jeopardy if people know that happened at this time? I just don't know."   

The Huffington Post went on to cite a variety of polls claiming that a slim majority of Americans support the extrajudicial assassination of people "suspected" of being high-level members of al-Qaeda — an organization originally created, armed, and funded by the U.S. government that, in Libya and Syria at least, continues to receive support from the Obama administration. If the "suspect" is American, supposed public support for murder without charge or trial drops to about 43 percent, the survey showed.

Despite the polls, however, prominent anti-war Democrats are still speaking out. "Polls, schmolls," said former Democrat Rep. Dennis Kucinich, who worked with ex-GOP Congressman Ron Paul in an effort to rein in the administration's unlawful assassination schemes. "What if you asked the public, does the government have the right to summarily execute you if they think you have committed a crime? You take that poll and you see what kind of answer you get. The questions that are being asked are being asked to try to justify the policy."

Like former Rep. Paul, Kucinich recognized the fact that Obama's murder program was wildly unconstitutional and a complete abuse of power. "It's morally abhorrent, it's objectionable and I don't care if it's politically popular or not," Kucinich was quoted as saying by the Post. "You can find a lot of things in the past that were politically popular that after further consideration the public decided [were] morally repugnant."

Outside the polls cited by the Huffington Post, which indeed seemed aimed at eliciting the impression of public support for Obama's mass-murder program, other recent surveys have come up with starkly different findings. A recent poll by Rasmussen, for instance, found that barely 20 percent of Americans thought the president should have sole authority to order an execution. Only slightly over a third of the public, meanwhile, favored the use of drone strikes to murder U.S. citizens abroad — not that public opinion should matter when it comes to upholding the Constitution that Obama and every member of Congress took an oath to uphold.   

Establishment Republicans like Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), often blasted as a Republican in Name Only (RINO), and establishment Democrats such as Rep. Pelosi have spoken out to support the lawless reign of terror waged by Obama. However, there is also significant and growing opposition to the mass-murder program among prominent Democrats and major segments of the GOP. Even among Obama supporters, criticism of the lawlessness is growing; but among constitutionalists, the outrage is becoming increasingly fierce.

"Anytime the government willfully executes a citizen, regardless of the circumstances, it is a very serious issue," Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah) told the Washington Examiner. "As the body that oversees executive branch actions, at the very least, Congress should have a full accounting — even if it must sometimes be in a classified setting — of the specific considerations that went into the decision."

According to Sen. Lee, in stark contrast to sentiments expressed by Pelosi and Obama, government should always err on the side of greater transparency. "Where there are limited and serious national security concerns about releasing certain details, the appropriate committees in Congress should have the opportunity to perform oversight," he added, noting that in some instances where the administration released its "legal analysis," the justifications have been "wrong." 

"If you're going to regard somebody as presenting an imminent threat of an attack on the U.S. simply because you have concluded that they are an 'operational leader' or they are involved in planning an attack in one way or another, you find yourself giving way to much discretion to the government," Lee told the Examiner after the Justice Department memo purporting to justify extrajudicial assassinations was made public.

On the other side of the aisle, Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) also slammed the murderous program and the secrecy behind it. "Every American has the right to know when their government believes it's allowed to kill them," Wyden told the rabidly pro-Obama MSNBC during a recent interview. "I don't think that, as one person said, that is too much to ask. And this idea that security and liberty are mutually exclusive, that you can only have one or the other, is something I reject."

The Democrat Senator, like other members of Congress, plans to take action, too, even if it is tepid. "So we're now going to have to begin the heavy lifting of the congressional oversight process by examining the legal underpinnings of this program and to make very clear I am going to push for more declassification of these key kinds of programs," he continued. "And I think we can do that consistent with national security."

Critics in the antiwar movement also attacked the controversial assassination program and especially the remarks made by the top House Democrat. "Pelosi is erring on the side of deference," observed analyst John Glaser with the popular, liberty-minded AntiWar.com blog. "If Obama declares he will strip Americans of the Constitutional rights and that it needs to be secret because divulging such information could 'harm national security,' she grants him that prerogative because she is not an independent voice in the branch of government meant to serve as a check on the President's power. Instead, she is an apparatchik; she's a Party mouthpiece faced with the task of capitulating to the Party leadership."

While Obama publicly claims to be fighting "al-Qaeda and associated forces" as part of a terror war, in Libya and Syria, the administration was caught providing arms, training, and support to self-described leaders of the terrorist organization. In reality — as documents from the Department of Homeland Security, the Justice Department, "fusion centers," and even military think tanks make clear — the U.S. government considers veterans, pro-life activists, constitutionalists, gun owners, and other regular Americans to be the primary "terror" threat facing the "Homeland."

If Congress and the American people allow the president to continue secretly assassinating and "disappearing" Americans at will without even charging them with a crime, lawmakers and analysts say it is only a matter of time before those usurped unconstitutional powers are turned on the citizenry. Opposition exists: More than a few critics have called for Obama to be impeached or even prosecuted for war crimes and treason. With support from Democrat leadership and much of the GOP establishment, however, it appears that Obama will be allowed to run roughshod over the Constitution and the unalienable rights of Americans — at least for the foreseeable future.     

Interesting also that the context of the discussion was about the drones that are being used in the 'War on Terror' as politics, Hollywood Style, has dubbed the mess in the Middle East. Also interesting that the subject of American Citizens is in the context of American Citizens being caught up in drone strikes across the world. It's not exactly taking someone out in Midtown Manhattan.

The drone strikes are shocking, and another symptom of failed American policy, but to present Pelosi's comments as anything other than a discussion about the problem in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere is hugely disingenuous.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 22, 2013, 03:45:42 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 22, 2013, 03:31:07 PM
The way it is phrased makes it looks like it's already happened. How can it be 'President Obama's secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges' if he has never done any such thing? Especially when you add that he has a case to answer on this one.

It would have been far more accurate, and less intentionally ambiguous if the report had said she WOULD NOT be opposed to ANY PRESIDENT having a policy of secret executions of US Citizens.

Even then, I'd like to see the direct quote.

What's the source for this extract stew?

AZ that is the direct quote.

I got it from a friend who sent it to me via email, the source was said to be a democrat insider who has said they have "grave concerns about the direction the administration is heading"

I will try and find out more!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on February 22, 2013, 03:46:55 PM
See above Stew, I found it online. I think the New American is putting 2+2 together, and insinuating something that wasn't said at all.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on February 22, 2013, 03:48:52 PM
Stew, it's called spin! It's called one thing being said, or even alluded to - and it gets completely spun out of the context it was actually said in. The American media (all sides) are masters at this. Water down the koolaid they try and feed us and treat that kind of nonsense with the bushel of salt it deserves.

The direct quote itself is poorly written. It suggests (I'd say it states) that President Obama is already directly responsible for the secret executions of US citizens.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on February 22, 2013, 04:00:35 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 22, 2013, 03:31:07 PM
The way it is phrased makes it looks like it's already happened. How can it be 'President Obama's secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges' if he has never done any such thing? Especially when you add that he has a case to answer on this one.

It would have been far more accurate, and less intentionally ambiguous if the report had said she WOULD NOT be opposed to ANY PRESIDENT having a policy of secret executions of US Citizens.

Even then, I'd like to see the direct quote.

What's the source for this extract stew?
Anwar al Awlaki was an American citizen who was murdered by drone in the "war" on "terror" (which looks more like keynesian military spending)
.     

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Aulaqi

What is the point of the "war" ? 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 22, 2013, 04:04:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2013, 04:00:35 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 22, 2013, 03:31:07 PM
The way it is phrased makes it looks like it's already happened. How can it be 'President Obama's secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges' if he has never done any such thing? Especially when you add that he has a case to answer on this one.

It would have been far more accurate, and less intentionally ambiguous if the report had said she WOULD NOT be opposed to ANY PRESIDENT having a policy of secret executions of US Citizens.

Even then, I'd like to see the direct quote.

What's the source for this extract stew?
Anwar al Awlaki was an American citizen who was murdered by drone in the "war" on "terror" (which looks more like keynesian military spending)
.     

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Aulaqi

What is the point of the "war" ?

Who was the last prez who couldnt be done for war crimes?

Some of these fcukers are ridiculous, Obama is fast becoming the worst of the lot.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on February 22, 2013, 04:16:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2013, 04:00:35 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 22, 2013, 03:31:07 PM
The way it is phrased makes it looks like it's already happened. How can it be 'President Obama's secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges' if he has never done any such thing? Especially when you add that he has a case to answer on this one.

It would have been far more accurate, and less intentionally ambiguous if the report had said she WOULD NOT be opposed to ANY PRESIDENT having a policy of secret executions of US Citizens.

Even then, I'd like to see the direct quote.

What's the source for this extract stew?
Anwar al Awlaki was an American citizen who was murdered by drone in the "war" on "terror" (which looks more like keynesian military spending)
.     

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Aulaqi

What is the point of the "war" ?

I made that post on the back of Stew's comment that the killings hadn't started yet. Then I looked at the full story and saw what the context actually was. I think that proves my very point about the ambiguity of the New American 'story'.

As for the 'War on Terror', as I've said, that looks like a Hollywood approach to the mess in the middle east. It's not a war on terror, it's the USA lashing out like a frightened child at figures lurking in the shadows.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 22, 2013, 04:28:11 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on February 22, 2013, 03:48:52 PM
Stew, it's called spin! It's called one thing being said, or even alluded to - and it gets completely spun out of the context it was actually said in. The American media (all sides) are masters at this. Water down the koolaid they try and feed us and treat that kind of nonsense with the bushel of salt it deserves.

The direct quote itself is poorly written. It suggests (I'd say it states) that President Obama is already directly responsible for the secret executions of US citizens.

Puck, that is lazy and inaccurate, this is being condemned on both sides of the house/senate and Pelosi said what she said, that is not spin, that is fact!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on February 22, 2013, 04:48:59 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 22, 2013, 04:16:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2013, 04:00:35 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 22, 2013, 03:31:07 PM
The way it is phrased makes it looks like it's already happened. How can it be 'President Obama's secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges' if he has never done any such thing? Especially when you add that he has a case to answer on this one.

It would have been far more accurate, and less intentionally ambiguous if the report had said she WOULD NOT be opposed to ANY PRESIDENT having a policy of secret executions of US Citizens.

Even then, I'd like to see the direct quote.

What's the source for this extract stew?
Anwar al Awlaki was an American citizen who was murdered by drone in the "war" on "terror" (which looks more like keynesian military spending)
.     

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Aulaqi

What is the point of the "war" ?

I made that post on the back of Stew's comment that the killings hadn't started yet. Then I looked at the full story and saw what the context actually was. I think that proves my very point about the ambiguity of the New American 'story'.

As for the 'War on Terror', as I've said, that looks like a Hollywood approach to the mess in the middle east. It's not a war on terror, it's the USA lashing out like a frightened child at figures lurking in the shadows.
Why does the US spend so much on Afghanistan though ? The number of soldiers with PTSD is rocketing. Something like 1500 have had serious genital injuries. I just don't see the point of what they are doing in Afghanistan unless it has something to do with spending taxpayers' money to satisfy some lobby.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on February 22, 2013, 05:23:24 PM
The US was built on a tradition of killing people who weren't "as civilised as we are"  - e.g Native Americans.
Now they are keeping on that tradition with the latest "savages" being Ayrabs/Muslims and Afghanistan is the latest frontier.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on February 22, 2013, 06:41:47 PM
Maybe you're missing my point - but I am not being lazy or innaccurate in what I am trying to say. We have a source - at present from your friends email, or the new American Journal. If we want to talk about lazy journalism, particularly that which is sensationalized - lets read the article from the NAJ that AZ posted again.

You're telling me there's no spin? You're standing behind a poorly worded quote which is trying to state that President Obama has already secretly executed US citizens?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on February 22, 2013, 06:45:30 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on February 22, 2013, 06:41:47 PM
Maybe you're missing my point - but I am not being lazy or innaccurate in what I am trying to say. We have a source - at present from your friends email, or the new American Journal. If we want to talk about lazy journalism, particularly that which is sensationalized - lets read the article from the NAJ that AZ posted again.

You're telling me there's no spin? You're standing behind a poorly worded quote which is trying to state that President Obama has already secretly executed US citizens?

It might explain the disappearance of Tyrone's Own.  :o
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 22, 2013, 10:58:02 PM
What about Pelosi's spin, where is the condemnation of her comments, ah fcuk it, just blame the republicans!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on February 23, 2013, 03:23:49 PM
On the contrary, I'm not blaming anybody!

Pelosi is a moron, and her comments need clarifying. If she's really suggesting that it's ok to secretly execute us citizens on a case by case basis, that's fucked up. Other than that it's a non story, in my view.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on March 28, 2013, 05:07:05 PM
Well, a hundred days have elapsed since Sandy Hook and, as expected, a fog of indifference has settled over the country.  Since then, over 3,000 people have suffered gun deaths in the US, and now we have long since passed any chance of outlawing high-powered army-style weaponry (BTW, in Sandy Hook, the shooter got off 155 bullets in less than five minutes); in fact, even implementing background checks is encountering strong opposition.

Since I came to this country, 1979, there have been about 300 victims of school shootings alone.

So dispiriting

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on March 28, 2013, 05:52:50 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on March 28, 2013, 05:07:05 PM
Well, a hundred days have elapsed since Sandy Hook and, as expected, a fog of indifference has settled over the country.  Since then, over 3,000 people have suffered gun deaths in the US, and now we have long since passed any chance of outlawing high-powered army-style weaponry (BTW, in Sandy Hook, the shooter got off 155 bullets in less than five minutes); in fact, even implementing background checks is encountering strong opposition.

Since I came to this country, 1979, there have been about 300 victims of school shootings alone.

So dispiriting


I have lost 9 facebook friends over the whole gun control thing since sandy hook.

I find myself in need of a good mechanic after a mate of 17 years effed me off because I told him that neither he, nor anyone else needed assault rifles and that guns do, in fact kill people. I thought fair enough, no longer facebook friends, no big deal so I brought the yoke down for a servicing and he refused to take care of the care and told me I was no longer welcome at his garage.

I was floored, i told him to grow up and call me when he buys some perspective and went across the road and got taken care of, now here's the thing, in 01 I got him a huge contract with the Company I was working for servicing their 40 odd trucks in the area, up until May of 2013 he has done every scrap of work for the company, in June he will find that he is going to have to seriously look for new customers because his biggest one is not renewing with him!

I will never understand these NRA arseholes, they are great at putting their shit on facebook etc and act like they are John f**king Wayne but when someone offers a contrary opinion they go apeshit!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Mike Sheehy on March 28, 2013, 10:05:48 PM
Quote from: stew on March 28, 2013, 05:52:50 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on March 28, 2013, 05:07:05 PM
Well, a hundred days have elapsed since Sandy Hook and, as expected, a fog of indifference has settled over the country.  Since then, over 3,000 people have suffered gun deaths in the US, and now we have long since passed any chance of outlawing high-powered army-style weaponry (BTW, in Sandy Hook, the shooter got off 155 bullets in less than five minutes); in fact, even implementing background checks is encountering strong opposition.

Since I came to this country, 1979, there have been about 300 victims of school shootings alone.

So dispiriting


I have lost 9 facebook friends over the whole gun control thing since sandy hook.

I find myself in need of a good mechanic after a mate of 17 years effed me off because I told him that neither he, nor anyone else needed assault rifles and that guns do, in fact kill people. I thought fair enough, no longer facebook friends, no big deal so I brought the yoke down for a servicing and he refused to take care of the care and told me I was no longer welcome at his garage.

I was floored, i told him to grow up and call me when he buys some perspective and went across the road and got taken care of, now here's the thing, in 01 I got him a huge contract with the Company I was working for servicing their 40 odd trucks in the area, up until May of 2013 he has done every scrap of work for the company, in June he will find that he is going to have to seriously look for new customers because his biggest one is not renewing with him!
I will never understand these NRA arseholes, they are great at putting their shit on facebook etc and act like they are John f**king Wayne but when someone offers a contrary opinion they go apeshit!

So you are going to go out of your way to jepordize your friends livelihood because of a spat over gun control which you instigated ? That's a sc**bag thing to do. Not surprised though..you have form in this area.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on March 29, 2013, 12:12:59 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on March 28, 2013, 10:05:48 PM
Quote from: stew on March 28, 2013, 05:52:50 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on March 28, 2013, 05:07:05 PM
Well, a hundred days have elapsed since Sandy Hook and, as expected, a fog of indifference has settled over the country.  Since then, over 3,000 people have suffered gun deaths in the US, and now we have long since passed any chance of outlawing high-powered army-style weaponry (BTW, in Sandy Hook, the shooter got off 155 bullets in less than five minutes); in fact, even implementing background checks is encountering strong opposition.

Since I came to this country, 1979, there have been about 300 victims of school shootings alone.

So dispiriting


I have lost 9 facebook friends over the whole gun control thing since sandy hook.

I find myself in need of a good mechanic after a mate of 17 years effed me off because I told him that neither he, nor anyone else needed assault rifles and that guns do, in fact kill people. I thought fair enough, no longer facebook friends, no big deal so I brought the yoke down for a servicing and he refused to take care of the care and told me I was no longer welcome at his garage.

I was floored, i told him to grow up and call me when he buys some perspective and went across the road and got taken care of, now here's the thing, in 01 I got him a huge contract with the Company I was working for servicing their 40 odd trucks in the area, up until May of 2013 he has done every scrap of work for the company, in June he will find that he is going to have to seriously look for new customers because his biggest one is not renewing with him!
I will never understand these NRA arseholes, they are great at putting their shit on facebook etc and act like they are John f**king Wayne but when someone offers a contrary opinion they go apeshit!

So you are going to go out of your way to jepordize your friends livelihood because of a spat over gun control which you instigated ? That's a sc**bag thing to do. Not surprised though..you have form in this area.


As a matter of fact micky I had nothing to do with it, the company has sold off 20% of it's assets and they are downsizing drastically, they sold off the whole of Illinois and several other States, it's Wisconsin's turn next and he is simply one of many small time businessmen impacted by the decision, I hate that it is happening to him but it is what it is.

I instigated nothing mike, you might need to learn what that word means, you are ignorant of the facts (as usual) and in this instance you are the one acting the sc**bag mick, not me! I offered a differing opinion to a friend about a subject that I am passionate about, you see Mike, I hate, absolutely hate to see people die at the hands of guns, I have lived with that shite all my born days and if you cannot tell a friend he is wrong then who can you tell mick?

Hope this helps Mike!  :-*
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on March 29, 2013, 11:21:01 AM
He wouldnt service my car he get the same thing, he mustnt need the business, so loosing a contract will lighten his workload.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Count 10 on March 29, 2013, 11:24:25 AM
Should have been pistols at dawn!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Mike Sheehy on March 29, 2013, 03:34:38 PM
QuoteAs a matter of fact micky I had nothing to do with it, the company has sold off 20% of it's assets and they are downsizing drastically, they sold off the whole of Illinois and several other States, it's Wisconsin's turn next and he is simply one of many small time businessmen impacted by the decision, I hate that it is happening to him but it is what it is.

I instigated nothing mike, you might need to learn what that word means, you are ignorant of the facts (as usual) and in this instance you are the one acting the sc**bag mick, not me! I offered a differing opinion to a friend about a subject that I am passionate about, you see Mike, I hate, absolutely hate to see people die at the hands of guns, I have lived with that shite all my born days and if you cannot tell a friend he is wrong then who can you tell mick?

Hope this helps Mike! 

You have a gun in your house, you are obviously a bit of a republican nutjob and yet you want to lecture other people on gun control ? I'm with the mechanic on this one !
As for not fixing your car ?  who among us would not eventually crack if continually asked to fix cheap bangers plastered with Armagh stickers and smelling of buckfast.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on March 29, 2013, 03:45:20 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on March 29, 2013, 03:34:38 PM
QuoteAs a matter of fact micky I had nothing to do with it, the company has sold off 20% of it's assets and they are downsizing drastically, they sold off the whole of Illinois and several other States, it's Wisconsin's turn next and he is simply one of many small time businessmen impacted by the decision, I hate that it is happening to him but it is what it is.

I instigated nothing mike, you might need to learn what that word means, you are ignorant of the facts (as usual) and in this instance you are the one acting the sc**bag mick, not me! I offered a differing opinion to a friend about a subject that I am passionate about, you see Mike, I hate, absolutely hate to see people die at the hands of guns, I have lived with that shite all my born days and if you cannot tell a friend he is wrong then who can you tell mick?

Hope this helps Mike! 

You have a gun in your house, you are obviously a bit of a republican nutjob and yet you want to lecture other people on gun control ? I'm with the mechanic on this one !
As for not fixing your car ?  who among us would not eventually crack if continually asked to fix cheap bangers plastered with Armagh stickers and smelling of buckfast.


So let me get this straight, I have a small handgun and that makes me a 'republican right wing nutjob'

I dont lecture anyone on anything Mike, I offered my opinion to a friend, you cant tell the difference between a .22 and a semi automatic so you best keep quiet and take another hit of whatever helps you get through the day.

Mike, that last line just about sums you up, a sad, ignorant wee man who is wrong on all fronts.

Have it in you Mike to say fair enough when it is obvious that, as usual, you are wrong, it's called humility, look it up brother! :)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Count 10 on March 29, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on March 29, 2013, 08:43:15 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on March 29, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?

Google it newbie!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Tony Baloney on March 29, 2013, 09:47:58 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on March 29, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?
Not if you keep it under the floorboards.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Count 10 on March 30, 2013, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: stew on March 29, 2013, 08:43:15 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on March 29, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?

Google it newbie!

Thanks for the insight "Hero".
Seems any dickhead can get a gun 8)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on March 30, 2013, 04:46:25 PM
A true hero doesn't need a gun.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: theticklemister on March 30, 2013, 05:03:16 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on March 30, 2013, 04:46:25 PM
A true hero doesn't need a gun.

What about big Arnie??
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on April 17, 2013, 10:08:23 PM
And, of course, even the diluted measures proposing background checks for gun buyers at gun shows and on the internet have been filibustered to death in the Senate. Shameful.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 18, 2013, 12:27:51 AM
The Republicans are filth. All but four wouldn't even vote for background checks for guns shows and advertised sales FFS. I suppose it goes with all the rest of their abhorrent views.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on April 18, 2013, 03:20:39 AM
Quote from: J70 on April 18, 2013, 12:27:51 AM
The Republicans are filth. All but four wouldn't even vote for background checks for guns shows and advertised sales FFS. I suppose it goes with all the rest of their abhorrent views.

The republicans are moral cowards, bought and paid for by an insidious collective of neanderthals, they make me sick to my stomach and the blood of future gun victims will be on their hands.

No time for Obama, this issue was not part of his re-election campaign however he was willing to adopt it, tried to work with this shower of cowards, compromised to try and get them over the line and instead they take it up the arse from their NRA masters!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on April 18, 2013, 03:22:55 AM
Quote from: Count 10 on March 30, 2013, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: stew on March 29, 2013, 08:43:15 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on March 29, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?

Google it newbie!

Thanks for the insight "Hero".
Seems any d**khead can get a gun 8)

I owe you an apology Count 10, there was supposed to be a wink after my post, sorry.  :-[
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Count 10 on April 18, 2013, 03:44:26 AM
Quote from: stew on April 18, 2013, 03:22:55 AM
Quote from: Count 10 on March 30, 2013, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: stew on March 29, 2013, 08:43:15 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on March 29, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?

Google it newbie!

Thanks for the insight "Hero".
Seems any d**khead can get a gun 8)

I owe you an apology Count 10, there was supposed to be a wink after my post, sorry.  :-[

No apology needed.....sad day for USA when they care more about guns than their children
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on April 18, 2013, 04:19:09 AM
Quote from: Count 10 on April 18, 2013, 03:44:26 AM
Quote from: stew on April 18, 2013, 03:22:55 AM
Quote from: Count 10 on March 30, 2013, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: stew on March 29, 2013, 08:43:15 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on March 29, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?

Google it newbie!

Thanks for the insight "Hero".
Seems any d**khead can get a gun 8)

I owe you an apology Count 10, there was supposed to be a wink after my post, sorry.  :-[

No apology needed.....sad day for USA when they care more about guns than their children

Twas needed but you are wrong on the latter Count, the politicians, in particular the republican politicians sold out their constituents that wanted this law to go through, they sold their souls in fear and wallow in money for their next term.

Obama did all he could up until this point, I am sure they will pay for their sins which, on this issue, are going to come back to haunt them!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Count 10 on April 18, 2013, 10:39:12 AM
Quote from: stew on April 18, 2013, 04:19:09 AM
Quote from: Count 10 on April 18, 2013, 03:44:26 AM
Quote from: stew on April 18, 2013, 03:22:55 AM
Quote from: Count 10 on March 30, 2013, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: stew on March 29, 2013, 08:43:15 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on March 29, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?

Google it newbie!

Thanks for the insight "Hero".
Seems any d**khead can get a gun 8)

I owe you an apology Count 10, there was supposed to be a wink after my post, sorry.  :-[

No apology needed.....sad day for USA when they care more about guns than their children

Twas needed but you are wrong on the latter Count, the politicians, in particular the republican politicians sold out their constituents that wanted this law to go through, they sold their souls in fear and wallow in money for their next term.

Obama did all he could up until this point, I am sure they will pay for their sins which, on this issue, are going to come back to haunt them!

Well they have the chance to vote them out at the next election, but politics as they are I wouldn't hold my breath. Never wanted a gun anywhere near me when I lived in the states.....but unfortunately was on the receiving end of one.
Life must go on.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on April 18, 2013, 03:29:36 PM
Note:
I'd like to point out the the **s added below are not mine- apparently the forum has decided my words may offend you...



Quote from: J70 on April 18, 2013, 12:27:51 AM
The Republicans are filth. All but four wouldn't even vote for background checks for guns shows and advertised sales FFS. I suppose it goes with all the rest of their abhorrent views.


the problem here although it may look like it is a Republican vs Democrat issues, is really a selfish f**ker vs selfish f**ker issue.

Politicians are elected and we are the d**kheads that vote for these selfish f**kers who are willingly putting their own chances of re-election over the possibility of keeping some people out of harm's way.

If people either don't vote, or continue with existing voting patterns, then this will continue to be the case, and the only people to blame will be those people who have the right to vote.

apparently we are to believe that 90% of american people agree with background checks. Thats a lot of people, apparently the 10% successfully fundraised and lobbied to ensure that the senate couldn't pass the motion. And when I say fundraised and lobbied, I mean that they used money and bullying to tell those selfish f**kers who just managed to win their last election in a tight race that they would make it hard for them to win again. And then a bunch of scared selfish f**kers did what they were told instead of acting n the best interests of the people they are supposed to represent.

And as for the other selfish f**kers, they are the ones who make a lot of money from the sale of guns. And somewhat unbelievably they have managed to convince (the dumb gullible) 10% of the american population, about 40 million people that it is in their interest to have anyone with a mental illness or who has been convicted of a violent crime to have unrestricted access to guns. And I don't mean just a pistol/ handgun, this includes semi automatic weapons and sniper rifles. Because, you know, to restrict that access would be un-American.

Never mind how easy it is for government to stop you flying, or preventing you voting- thats all fine, because you may be dangerous if you do that,  but own a sub machine gun- that's your (selective) constitutional right.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on April 19, 2013, 01:06:25 PM
CNBC national tv just told people the people of Boston
"if you have a handgun get it ready and stand by the door, be better than a baseball bat"


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on April 19, 2013, 01:24:25 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on March 30, 2013, 05:03:16 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on March 30, 2013, 04:46:25 PM
A true hero doesn't need a gun.

What about big Arnie??
Big Arnie left California with a 27bn $ deficit.
It was Jerry Brown who terminated it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on April 19, 2013, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: heganboy on April 19, 2013, 01:06:25 PM
CNBC national tv just told people the people of Boston
"if you have a handgun get it ready and stand by the door, be better than a baseball bat"


Please note this is a Liberal media station Fox, looking forward to the condemnation from the usual suspects.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on April 19, 2013, 05:00:47 PM
It seems that the NRA used to be fairly middle of the road until Wayne la Pierre took over. He wouldn't be out of place in the UVF apparently. Not really much of a moderate.  Now everyone is afraid of the organisation.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 19, 2013, 05:27:53 PM
Quote from: stew on April 19, 2013, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: heganboy on April 19, 2013, 01:06:25 PM
CNBC national tv just told people the people of Boston
"if you have a handgun get it ready and stand by the door, be better than a baseball bat"


Please note this is a Liberal media station Fox, looking forward to the condemnation from the usual suspects.

CNBC is not liberal. MSNBC  is.

CNBC is a Wall St business channel. One of their guys inspired the rise of the tea party FFS on a rant about bailouts for struggling home owners.

You've made this claim before.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on April 19, 2013, 06:16:01 PM
CNBC is wall street's go to business channel. And as such would definitely have a right wing bias, especially on tax government regulation i was surprised to hear them get into that today. And not only that-" in light of this dangerous foreign criminal forcing unarmed US citizens to be locked in their homes today, surely this is the context in which we should frame the gun and immigration debates this week"

also  a congressman called to have ball bearing purchases tracked  and registered (but not guns or pressure cookers)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on May 04, 2013, 05:24:34 AM
Yep, a 5 year-old shot and killed his 2 year-old sister in Kentucky.

And now over 3,800 have died from guns since Sandy Hook, and we can't even get background checks despite the fact that 90% of the country favour them.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on May 04, 2013, 05:37:47 AM
Quote from: heganboy on April 19, 2013, 01:06:25 PM
CNBC national tv just told people the people of Boston
"if you have a handgun get it ready and stand by the door, be better than a baseball bat"

What sickens me is the fact the Republicans will be loving this comment and comments like it from the left wing media!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on May 04, 2013, 05:43:25 AM
Quote from: heganboy on April 19, 2013, 06:16:01 PM
CNBC is wall street's go to business channel. And as such would definitely have a right wing bias, especially on tax government regulation i was surprised to hear them get into that today. And not only that-" in light of this dangerous foreign criminal forcing unarmed US citizens to be locked in their homes today, surely this is the context in which we should frame the gun and immigration debates this week"

also  a congressman called to have ball bearing purchases tracked  and registered (but not guns or pressure cookers)

Hegan, CNBC is an enigma, liberal on some matters and to some people, republican to others and on some matters.

A five year old kills a two year old in f**king Kentucky of all places but hey, guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Charlton Heston, deceased or not you were a f**king idiot!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 04, 2013, 01:21:00 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on May 04, 2013, 05:24:34 AM
Yep, a 5 year-old shot and killed his 2 year-old sister in Kentucky.

And now over 3,800 have died from guns since Sandy Hook, and we can't even get background checks despite the fact that 90% of the country favour them.

Thank the process of gerrymandering. If you though the likes of the city of Derry was bad back in the day when the Unionists marked out their constituencies, you should check out maps for US congressional districts! All those deranged Republican congressman have safe seats through 2020, at least, no matter how debased their policies. The Democrats received 1.5 million votes more than the Republicans for House seats 2012, yet ended up losing the House by a substantial margin. Those Democratic voters who stayed home in 2010, allowing a significantly reduced electorate to sweep the Tea Party lunatics to power, have a lot to answer for and no right to complain.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 04, 2013, 01:23:28 PM
Quote from: stew on May 04, 2013, 05:43:25 AM
Quote from: heganboy on April 19, 2013, 06:16:01 PM
CNBC is wall street's go to business channel. And as such would definitely have a right wing bias, especially on tax government regulation i was surprised to hear them get into that today. And not only that-" in light of this dangerous foreign criminal forcing unarmed US citizens to be locked in their homes today, surely this is the context in which we should frame the gun and immigration debates this week"

also  a congressman called to have ball bearing purchases tracked  and registered (but not guns or pressure cookers)

Hegan, CNBC is an enigma, liberal on some matters and to some people, republican to others and on some matters.

A five year old kills a two year old in f**king Kentucky of all places but hey, guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Charlton Heston, deceased or not you were a f**king idiot!

Stew, CNBC is all business. Not sure who'd go to it for other reasons, other than to take an odd look at Maria Bartiromo!  :D
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: All of a Sludden on May 12, 2013, 10:06:20 PM
Local tv in U.S. City of New Orleans reports at least a dozen people injured in a shooting during local neighbourhood Mother's Day parade.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on May 13, 2013, 04:03:20 AM
from CNN

QuoteAbdul Aziz believes he was standing right next to a shooter Sunday when gunmen opened fire at a Mother's Day parade in New Orleans, injuring 19 people.
"Everyone around me, except me, was shot," he said. "I was pretty fortunate to get away."
Aziz, 33, a photojournalist, was at the second-line parade when gunfire broke out at the corner of Frenchman Street and North Villere Street.
Second-line parades, which involve dancing and brass bands, are a New Orleans tradition. They happen most every Sunday, except during the hottest months in summer, according to Aziz.
"We turned off of a main thoroughfare to a smaller residential street, and that's when the shots rang out. I was standing, I believe, right next to the shooter. I saw muzzle flash, but unfortunately I didn't get a chance to see who the shooter was," he said.
People panicked and ran.
Aziz, who has worked in the Middle East, started taking pictures.
He sent those images to CNN iReport.
"It's a little jarring when you see these types of things on the home front," he said.
"I'm sad. I love this city. We're plagued by crime, and it's just not getting better no matter what we do."
According to police, 19 people were injured in the shooting, including two children. Ten men and seven women were among the victims.
The children suffered graze wounds. Other injuries ranged from minor to severe.
Shots were fired from different guns, and officers saw three suspects running from the scene, police said.
One of the suspects was described as an African-American male, approximately 18 to 22 years old, wearing a white T-shirt and blue jean shorts.
No one is in custody.
"This is an extremely unusual occurrence, and we're confident that we will make swift arrests," said Remi Braden, a police spokeswoman.
Police Superintendent Ronal Serpas told CNN affiliate WVUE that it appears "two or three people just, for a reason unknown to us, started shooting at, towards, or in the crowd."
He asked anyone with information to call authorities.
New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu echoed that request, challenging the community to get involved.
"It's important for us, as I have said, to change the culture of death on the streets of New Orleans to a culture of life, and it's going to take an all-hands-on-deck approach," he said.
"These kinds of incidents are not going to go unanswered. We're going to be very, very aggressive. There were hundreds of people out there today, so somebody knows who did this."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on May 14, 2013, 07:37:01 AM
(http://www.commondreams.org/sites/commondreams.org/files/imce-images/national-receipt.png)

A National Receipt from the 45 senators who blocked gun control, and who received $8,165,490 from the NRA and other gun-toting advocates
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on June 13, 2013, 11:56:03 PM
Six months since Sandy Hook.  5,045 shot dead since then.  How can the same people who applaud the governmen't scrutiny of telephone and internet use in the interest of security resist so strenuously oppose attempts to register gun buyers?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on June 14, 2013, 12:13:45 AM
QuoteHow can the same people who applaud the governmen't scrutiny of telephone and internet use in the interest of security resist so strenuously attempts to register gun buyers?

You have to realise that phones are dangerous
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1134838/Man-killed-mobile-phone-explodes-severing-artery-neck.html
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on June 14, 2013, 01:45:18 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 13, 2013, 11:56:03 PM
Six months since Sandy Hook.  5,045 shot dead since then.  How can the same people who applaud the governmen't scrutiny of telephone and internet use in the interest of security resist so strenuously attempts to register gun buyers?

So well put, and just tonight Obama decides to "arm the rebels" in Syria based on findings that "100 to 150 people have died from detected chemical weapons attacks"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/13/syria-chemical-weapons-us-confirm
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on June 14, 2013, 02:33:14 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 13, 2013, 11:56:03 PM
Six months since Sandy Hook.  5,045 shot dead since then.  How can the same people who applaud the governmen't scrutiny of telephone and internet use in the interest of security resist so strenuously oppose attempts to register gun buyers?

I dont think they do? The folks raging about data collection and the gun nuts are all one and the same in my world at a glance. They're all raging anti-Obamists too.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on June 14, 2013, 06:30:17 PM
Yes, Puck, there is a whole group who oppose government intervention of any kind, any time, but there is also a broad swath of the population who seem to have no qualms about PRISM and telephone durveillance because of a perceived greater security/safety benefit. And while it may be true that some of that group are liberal (e.g. Al Franken), many are not.  My point is that how can the same conservative group so adamantly support the government's ability to perform, among other things, background checks in the interests of safety but at the same time resist with such conviction background checks on would-be gun owners when those checks are motivated also by a concern for safety, especially since over 5,000 people have died as a result of guns since Sandy Hook.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on July 08, 2013, 07:43:43 PM
Chicago reached its 200th homicide of the year on Saturday.  Over the July 4th holiday, 74 people were shot in Chicago, of whom 12 died.  Gives added meaning to "bombs bursting in air."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 08, 2013, 08:24:56 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on July 08, 2013, 07:43:43 PM
Chicago reached its 200th homicide of the year on Saturday.  Over the July 4th holiday, 74 people were shot in Chicago, of whom 12 died.  Gives added meaning to "bombs bursting in air."

Jesus!! Just last week I was listening to a report about how better policing was getting the murder rate (relatively) under control, with the rate way down from last year. Hopefully this is just a "blip" and they get back on course.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on July 08, 2013, 08:39:12 PM
You are right, J70.  Chicago's homicide rate is down.  By this time last year, the total was 275.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 09, 2013, 04:54:24 PM
http://nocera.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/08/weekend-gun-report-july-4th-edition/

Thursday:

Jaden Donald, 5, was shot and critically wounded along with three others during a fireworks outing in Chicago's Cooper Park on Thursday. The same day, Christian Lyles, 7, was shot twice in the neck in the Chatham neighborhood of Chicago. A teenage boy named Monquize Edwards was shot and killed after fireworks festivities in downtown Indianapolis, Ind., Thursday night. A shooting in Durham, N.C., left 17-year-old Dion Omari Williams dead late Wednesday.

Police say Omari Hoston was shot and wounded by his father, 59-year-old Alvis Dorsey, in Monroe, La., Thursday afternoon. Joshua J. Snapp, 17, was found shot and killed in the desert in Richland, Wash., early Thursday, and Joshua H. Hunt, 19, and John C. Young, 18, are accused of taking turns shooting him. Jamil Sarwar, 30, a New York Police Department officer, was shot while on foot patrol in the Cypress Hills section of Brooklyn, N.Y., late Thursday.

39-year-old Diallo Scott and his 34-year-old brother, Donald Scott, were found shot to death in a gang-related attack in Arcadia, Okla., Thursday afternoon. A man was shot in the leg near an intersection in the Ellwood Park/Monument neighborhood in East Baltimore, Md., early Thursday. A 17-year-old girl was accidentally shot in the arms when her grandfather was firing his handgun, which he believed contained blanks, at his house in northwest Baltimore, Md., Thursday night.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on November 14, 2013, 12:23:07 AM
Gone and, for the most part, forgotten or ignored.

Slate estimates the total number of gun deaths since Sandy Hook at 10,470, but acknowledges that that total is well shy of the actual number and accounts only for comtemporaneous reports by news organizations.  Suicides, for example, which comprise over 60% of gun deaths, go largely unreported.

Even more alarming is that yesterday the Center for Disease Control reported the number of deaths as 30.275.  Numbers that big cease to have meaning.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on January 14, 2014, 07:03:42 PM
this murder has absolutely nothing to do with america's gun laws:

QuoteA retired Florida policeman has been charged with murder after allegedly shooting a man who texted during a film.

Authorities said Curtis Reeves, 71, and Chad Oulson, 43, got into an argument before the screening of the film Lone Survivor when Reeves asked Oulson to stop texting.

"Somebody throws popcorn. I'm not sure who threw the popcorn," said witness Charles Cummings. "And then bang, he was shot."

Oulson told Reeves he was texting his three-year-old daughter, Cummings said.

Pasco County sheriff's officials said Reeves and his wife were sitting behind Oulson and his wife. Reeves has been charged with second-degree murder.

"It ended almost as quickly as it started," said sheriff's spokesman Doug Tobin. An off-duty deputy detained Reeves until police arrived.

Cummings, who had blood on his clothes, said the trailers before the film were still showing when the couples started arguing. The men started raising their voices and popcorn was thrown.

Authorities said Reeves took out a gun, Oulson's wife put her hand over her husband and Reeves fired his weapon, striking Nichole Oulson in the hand and her husband in the chest.

"I can't believe people would bring a pistol, a gun, to a movie," Cummings said. "I can't believe they would argue and fight and shoot one another over popcorn. Over a cellphone."

Cummings said Oulson fell on to him and his son. Another man grabbed the gun, and the suspect did not attempt to get away, Cummings said.

Chad Oulson died in hospital. His wife's injuries were not life-threatening.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/14/man-shot-dead-at-movies-for-texting

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on May 07, 2014, 09:05:58 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/07/us/texas-police-shoot-elderly-woman-93/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/07/us/texas-police-shoot-elderly-woman-93/index.html)

Texas police shoot woman, 93
By Vivian Kuo, CNN

(CNN) -- Texas Rangers are investigating why police in a small central Texas town fatally shot a 93-year-old woman at her home.
Pearlie Golden, a longtime resident of Hearne, Texas, a town of approximately 4,600 people situated about 150 miles south of Dallas, was shot multiple times Tuesday.

"What I understand is (Hearne police) were called out because a woman was brandishing a firearm," Robertson County District Attorney Coty Siegert said.

"An officer asked her to put the handgun down, and when she would not, shots were fired."

Hearne City Attorney Bryan Russ Jr. said Officer Steven Stem told Golden to drop her weapon at least three times.

Stem fired three times, and Golden was hit at least twice, he said.

The Hearne Police Department placed Stem on administrative leave pending the inquiry.

"We're very saddened by this. Everybody in the city government is deeply disappointed that this lady was killed," Russ said. "Now, the investigation is out of our hands. It's under the Texas Rangers, which is where we want it to be."

Community members told CNN affiliate KBTX that Golden, known affectionately as "Ms. Sully," was a sweet woman.

"Even if she did have a gun, she is in her 90s," Lawanda Cooke told KBTX. "They could have shot in the air to scare her. Maybe she would have dropped it. I don't see her shooting anyone."

The case will eventually be presented to a grand jury, which is standard procedure when dealing with officer-involved incidents, Russ said.

In the meantime, Hearne City Council members will meet Saturday to discuss Stem's employment or whether any disciplinary action will be taken.

"I would expect people to be upset about this, a young police officer shooting a 93-year-old lady," Russ said. "I'm upset about it. Most of our citizens are upset but at the same time I don't believe all the facts have come to the surface yet."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on May 21, 2014, 08:55:24 PM
Interesting piece by Armagh man Sean O'Hagan, the pride of Drumarg.  The comment section afterwards is also enlightening:

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/apr/29/armed-to-the-milk-teeth-america-gun-toting-kids

On a related note, the Center for Disease Control puts the number of US gun deaths since Sandy Hook at roughly 49,000.
Title: Map of school/college shootings in the USA since Sandy Hook.
Post by: muppet on June 10, 2014, 08:04:29 PM
(http://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/assets/4592461/Screen_Shot_2014-06-10_at_1.48.46_PM.png)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on June 11, 2014, 06:44:23 PM
We moved to get away from the bullet and the bomb, my girls high school in Green Bay, Wisconsin was to be bombed by a few anti social left wing nuts but were thwarted at the last minute !

East High School in Green Bay was almost blown off the map when my two kids were there, the whole school was in lockdown and none of us knew the what the hell was going on, we did not panic given the overkill of the response of the local law enforcement but I would be lying if I said I was not a bit afraid of my kids being hurt by these arseholes!!!



America is a great country, full of wonderful, caring people, unfortunately it has more than its fair share of idiots hell bent on making a name for themselves and injuring and maiming the innocent!

Here's the rub, no matter were you go or were you hide, violence and evil can find you and you can never fully protect your progeny, it is impossible and it is sad
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on June 11, 2014, 10:12:38 PM
(https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t1.0-9/376224_10151048684114064_1016303183_n.jpg)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: macdanger2 on June 11, 2014, 11:07:14 PM
Estonia is an odd country to be on that list
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on June 11, 2014, 11:34:41 PM
I don't think it's right. Estonia's rate is 2.54 in 2010 according to http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/estonia
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on June 11, 2014, 11:58:57 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 07, 2014, 09:05:58 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/07/us/texas-police-shoot-elderly-woman-93/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/07/us/texas-police-shoot-elderly-woman-93/index.html)

Texas police shoot woman, 93
By Vivian Kuo, CNN

(CNN) -- Texas Rangers are investigating why police in a small central Texas town fatally shot a 93-year-old woman at her home.
Pearlie Golden, a longtime resident of Hearne, Texas, a town of approximately 4,600 people situated about 150 miles south of Dallas, was shot multiple times Tuesday.

"What I understand is (Hearne police) were called out because a woman was brandishing a firearm," Robertson County District Attorney Coty Siegert said.

"An officer asked her to put the handgun down, and when she would not, shots were fired."

Hearne City Attorney Bryan Russ Jr. said Officer Steven Stem told Golden to drop her weapon at least three times.

Stem fired three times, and Golden was hit at least twice, he said.

The Hearne Police Department placed Stem on administrative leave pending the inquiry.

"We're very saddened by this. Everybody in the city government is deeply disappointed that this lady was killed," Russ said. "Now, the investigation is out of our hands. It's under the Texas Rangers, which is where we want it to be."

Community members told CNN affiliate KBTX that Golden, known affectionately as "Ms. Sully," was a sweet woman.

"Even if she did have a gun, she is in her 90s," Lawanda Cooke told KBTX. "They could have shot in the air to scare her. Maybe she would have dropped it. I don't see her shooting anyone."

The case will eventually be presented to a grand jury, which is standard procedure when dealing with officer-involved incidents, Russ said.

In the meantime, Hearne City Council members will meet Saturday to discuss Stem's employment or whether any disciplinary action will be taken.

"I would expect people to be upset about this, a young police officer shooting a 93-year-old lady," Russ said. "I'm upset about it. Most of our citizens are upset but at the same time I don't believe all the facts have come to the surface yet."


Guess she had it comin ;D

Sorry but seriously if I was living over there I d make sure I d be armed to the teeth. Regulating gun ownership is a splendid idea. But do you think Babyfaced Nelson and Machinegun Kelly got a cert for their guns? I can see where the gun lobby is coming from. The crims are going to have the weapons anyway and regulation for law abiding people would mean they would be reduced to spud guns. In a violent society that is like having your hands tied behind yer back and sent in against Mike Tyson. The USA has been carved by violence and to expect people to move on while it is still violent is not on.
I own a couple of hunting guns ( never shot anybody and its years since I shot anything alive) but if I could I would own a handgun for protection. I was burgled once while I was in the house and the kids were very young. Not that I want to shoot anybody but I don t want to be destroyed and helpless either.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on June 12, 2014, 12:04:17 AM
The rest of the developed world seems able to keep guns under control. Fixing the problem in America is not a short term job, but it hasn't gotten anywhere because of the "not an inch" attitude of the NRA. Anything that even remotely smells like sensible gun reform, even if it's a modest reform, is blown up out of all proportion as a threat to personal liberty.  And that's part 2 of the problem, this insane belief in America that freedom is a product of guns rather than a product of democracy and the rule of law.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on June 12, 2014, 12:45:35 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 12, 2014, 12:04:17 AM
The rest of the developed world seems able to keep guns under control. Fixing the problem in America is not a short term job, but it hasn't gotten anywhere because of the "not an inch" attitude of the NRA. Anything that even remotely smells like sensible gun reform, even if it's a modest reform, is blown up out of all proportion as a threat to personal liberty.  And that's part 2 of the problem, this insane belief in America that freedom is a product of guns rather than a product of democracy and the rule of law.

No they don t! And certainly not in Ireland anyway. Organised crime in Ireland have access to whatever they want?
American freedom was the product of guns and they went toe to toe again with themselves during the Civil War. Colts and Winchesters nearly killed as many Native Americansas cholera did. Bit of a pattern emerging there. Add to that you had National Guard using live rounds on strikers and students being blown away during Vietnem protests. Add in JFK, Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy, John Lennon etc and you have a hell of a history of guns.

And you expect that 'normal' Americans are going to give up the right to carry the most effective gun they can afford/get. Will they f**k. They realise the people that they live in fear of will not be signing up to any regulation and will get any weapon he wants anyway.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on June 12, 2014, 01:35:16 AM
QuoteNo they don t!

Yes they do. Gun crime in Ireland is nowhere near at US levels and well you know it. America is the only country in the developed world that has third world levels of gun crime.

QuoteAmerican freedom was the product of guns and they went toe to toe again with themselves during the Civil War.

What's that got to do with the price of fish? This is 2014.

Ireland's (partial) independence was the product of guns, but nobody would say that's a reason to let any Tom Dick and Sally go out and buy a gun with no restrictions.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Syferus on June 12, 2014, 09:55:08 AM
Sure the best our lads could do would be throwing their notebooks at the mad ould lady. The fact rank-and-file police have to carry guns in the States is evidence enough of the difference.

When our lads go on a power trip you get four penalty points, when their cousins do people end up dead.

We don't give ourselves enough credit for just how good a country we are on the absolute scale. Weather and all, there's few places on Earth better.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on August 19, 2014, 12:05:10 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/aug/17/police-guns-detroit-crime-race-cost-issues (http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/aug/17/police-guns-detroit-crime-race-cost-issues)

Police tell Detroiters to buy guns in city riven by race issues and crime
City police chief has encouraged residents to arm themselves as stark racial disparities in 'shoot first' laws become clear
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 19, 2014, 04:49:09 AM
I lived over here for a few years now and I have to say you gotta laugh at the attitude of some people. I seen a bumper sticker there the other day
"I'll keep my guns, money and freedom, you keep the change"

Of course he was a poor old white guy driving a wreck of a pickup, it was a scene that painted a thousand words about political demographics in America.

Crime in America is a complicated social issue and not quite as simple as availability of guns.

I still can't figure out what this freedom craic is they are raving about, and no one else that I ask seems to either, but i suppose it sounds good if you repeat it over and over again.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 19, 2014, 07:05:58 AM
Pretty much. They've gotten it into their heads that freedom is a product of guns, so they just repeat this mantra over and over again until they even believe it in their own minds.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: NAG1 on August 19, 2014, 11:54:28 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 19, 2014, 07:05:58 AM
Pretty much. They've gotten it into their heads that freedom is a product of guns, so they just repeat this mantra over and over again until they even believe it in their own minds.

I think the US is in serious trouble internally, they have a whole raft of people who are disenfranchised and have no particular interest in the laws of the country. Incidents like this one will continue to occur and IMO will become more and more volatile and violent as the go on.

Obama is trying to bring them with him but I think for most it is too late and they see no other future than crime and living in the ghettos.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: HiMucker on August 27, 2014, 09:48:39 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28948946
FFS why does a 9 year old need to learn how to use an uzi??? Madness
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on August 27, 2014, 09:56:44 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on August 27, 2014, 09:48:39 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28948946
FFS why does a 9 year old anyone need to learn how to use an uzi??? Madness
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: HiMucker on August 27, 2014, 10:13:33 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on August 27, 2014, 09:56:44 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on August 27, 2014, 09:48:39 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28948946
FFS why does a 9 year old anyone need to learn how to use an uzi??? Madness
True
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Denn Forever on August 27, 2014, 12:14:22 PM
If you want to freak yourself out, just watch American Guns on Discovery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Guns
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Tony Baloney on August 27, 2014, 01:26:21 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on August 27, 2014, 09:48:39 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28948946
FFS why does a 9 year old need to learn how to use an uzi??? Madness
The constitutional right trumps common sense.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 27, 2014, 02:45:48 PM
A few years ago in CT a similar incident occurred, but the kid shot himself in the head. (The father in that case was a doctor or surgeon, not some redneck toothless hick)

These fvcking people need to cop the,selves on
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 27, 2014, 06:05:21 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on August 27, 2014, 09:48:39 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28948946
FFS why does a 9 year old need to learn how to use an uzi??? Madness

Freedom!! And you never know when jack-booted thugs from the evil federal government will show up on your doorstep!

Oh... and... Freedom!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: No Soloing on August 27, 2014, 06:38:23 PM
This happened at a place called 'Burgers & Bullets' http://bulletsandburgers.com/. Book your birthday party on their website
'Our guests have the opportunity to fire a wide range of fully automatic machine guns and specialty weapons. You will choose the guns which you want to shoot ... To top it off, lunch is included inside the the World Famous Arizona Last Stop restaurant located onsite. You will be treated with the World Famous All American Hamburger, fresh cut french fries, and a drink.'

Ranked #1 attraction in Las Vegas on Tripadvisor (even with a few negative reviews today)
http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g45963-d3697929-Reviews-Bullets_and_Burgers-Las_Vegas_Nevada.html

wtf!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: dec on August 27, 2014, 08:17:20 PM
(http://bulletsandburgers.com/images/slider/homepage/5right.jpg)

Bullets and Burgers (and Beer)

What could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: mikehunt on August 27, 2014, 11:30:51 PM
Seen the manager interviewed and he didn't know how it could have happened. Now I'm no expert but arming a nine year old with an uzi has the potential to cause issues. I hear they're increasing the age limit to 12 years of age now. Least that's sorted.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Linkbox on August 28, 2014, 06:51:05 AM
Quote from: No Soloing on August 27, 2014, 06:38:23 PM
This happened at a place called 'Burgers & Bullets' http://bulletsandburgers.com/. Book your birthday party on their website
'Our guests have the opportunity to fire a wide range of fully automatic machine guns and specialty weapons. You will choose the guns which you want to shoot ... To top it off, lunch is included inside the the World Famous Arizona Last Stop restaurant located onsite. You will be treated with the World Famous All American Hamburger, fresh cut french fries, and a drink.'

Ranked #1 attraction in Las Vegas on Tripadvisor (even with a few negative reviews today)
http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g45963-d3697929-Reviews-Bullets_and_Burgers-Las_Vegas_Nevada.html

wtf!

Jesus Christ that website is an assault on the eyes.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on August 28, 2014, 09:05:49 AM
Quote from: mikehunt on August 27, 2014, 11:30:51 PM
Seen the manager interviewed and he didn't know how it could have happened. Now I'm no expert but arming a nine year old with an uzi has the potential to cause issues. I hear they're increasing the age limit to 12 years of age now. Least that's sorted.
He says here the minimum age is 8 for Uzis but 5 year olds can use rifles
https://gma.yahoo.com/9-old-girl-accidentally-kills-shooting-range-instructor-063706519--abc-news-topstories.html

in that famous question beloved of 5 year olds. Why ? Why ?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on August 28, 2014, 03:09:39 PM
Does that not trample all over the constitutional rights of 4 year olds?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on August 28, 2014, 03:11:10 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on August 28, 2014, 03:09:39 PM
Does that not trample all over the constitutional rights of 4 year olds?

A perfect summation of the lunacy.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on December 31, 2014, 10:56:01 PM
This is so sad

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/31/idaho-nuclear-scientist-shot-dead-son-walmart

"The woman who was accidentally shot dead by her two-year-old son in an Idaho Walmart is described by those who knew her as a gun lover, a motivated academic and a successful nuclear research scientist.
"She was a beautiful, young, loving mother who was taken much too soon," Veronica Rutledge's father-in-law, Terry Rutledge, told the Spokesman-Review. "She was out on what was supposed to be a fun-filled day with her son and nieces."
Rutledge was shot at about 10.20am on Tuesday, in the electronics department of the Hayden, Idaho, Walmart. Kootenai County sheriffs said her son, sitting in the front of a shopping cart, reached into Rutledge's purse, found her weapon and shot his mother.
"I mean, this is a pretty tragic incident right now that we're dealing with," Kootenai lieutenant Stu Miller told reporters on Tuesday. "When you have young children, small people, holiday season – it's not a pleasant experience." "

I remember when I was 7 going for a walk with my cowboy gun but I wouldn't bring it to the supermarket now.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: macdanger2 on August 06, 2015, 10:35:08 AM
Terrible story: http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0806/719450-detroit-shooting/

QuoteAn 11-year-old boy has been charged with manslaughter over the fatal shooting of a toddler in Detroit.

The older boy allegedly shot the three-year-old boy in the face on Monday and he was pronounced dead on arrival at a hospital, The Detroit News and other media said.

According to CBS Detroit, police at the scene said the boys had been playing with the gun.

The Detroit News quoted Wayne County prosecutor Kym Worthy as saying that the older boy was visiting his father's house when he found a gun in a bedroom wardrobe.

He tossed it out of the bedroom window, Ms Worthy said, retrieved it outside and took it into a parked vehicle where the toddler joined him.

A short time later, Ms Worthy said, the 11-year-old shot the little boy dead.

"I cannot remember a time where we have charged someone so young with taking a life," she was quoted saying in a statement.

"Very unfortunately and very tragically, the alleged facts in this case demanded it.

"The charged respondent here will remain in the juvenile system, but the case remains under investigation.

"As a result of that, I will not say more at this time."

Neither boy has been named.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on August 06, 2015, 11:35:22 AM
Surely some mistake? I mean 'guns don't kill people'.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on August 06, 2015, 01:58:22 PM
Quote from: Hardy on August 06, 2015, 11:35:22 AM
Surely some mistake? I mean 'guns don't kill people'.

Right, it's more the bullets that do that.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 06, 2015, 02:19:12 PM
How the f**k do you charge an 11 year old with manslaughter?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on August 06, 2015, 04:22:10 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 06, 2015, 02:19:12 PM
How the f**k do you charge an 11 year old with manslaughter?

Surely the Dad who left the gun in the wardrobe is the one to charge?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on August 06, 2015, 04:24:32 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 06, 2015, 02:19:12 PM
How the f**k do you charge an 11 year old with manslaughter?

They have deemed him as knowing fully as to what he was doing, no matter what happens he will be out when he is 18 and the record expunged, not much but it is something.

I think it disgraceful that this is happening but there are elections to be won and there is the public court of opinion to consider.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2015, 09:11:10 PM
Apologies if this has been posted before but can't be arsed going through all the pages. Jim Jeffries, Aussie comic, nails it here.

https://youtu.be/Jl--YVnni0I
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on August 06, 2015, 09:51:38 PM
Quote from: stew on August 06, 2015, 04:24:32 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 06, 2015, 02:19:12 PM
How the f**k do you charge an 11 year old with manslaughter?

They have deemed him as knowing fully as to what he was doing, no matter what happens he will be out when he is 18 and the record expunged, not much but it is something.

I think it disgraceful that this is happening but there are elections to be won and there is the public court of opinion to consider.

But wtf sort of public wants to charge 11 year olds?!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on August 06, 2015, 10:50:20 PM
Funny video, 93-DY, but he's playing to a Boston audience.  Wonder how well he'd fare in the heart of Dixie playing to a Nascar audience.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: theticklemister on August 06, 2015, 10:57:27 PM
I  mind my ma not letting me have a toy gun out on the streets As a wain in case the Brits thought it was real.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2015, 11:02:51 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on August 06, 2015, 10:50:20 PM
Funny video, 93-DY, but he's playing to a Boston audience.  Wonder how well he'd fare in the heart of Dixie playing to a Nascar audience.

About as well as this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePQ9_re7f1A
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on August 07, 2015, 06:29:29 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2015, 11:02:51 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on August 06, 2015, 10:50:20 PM
Funny video, 93-DY, but he's playing to a Boston audience.  Wonder how well he'd fare in the heart of Dixie playing to a Nascar audience.

About as well as this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePQ9_re7f1A

Lyrics to Kazakhstan National Anthem

Kazakhstan greatest country in the world
all other countrys are run by little girls.
Kazakhstan number one exporter of potassium!
Other countries have inferior potassium.

Kazakhstan home of the tinshein swimming pool
it's length thirty metre ans width six metre.
Filtration system a marvel to behold
it removes 80 percent of human solid waste.

Kazakhstan,Kazakhstan, you very nice place,
from plains of tarashenk to northern fence of jewtown.
Kazakhstan, friend of all except Uzbekistan,
they very nosey people withe bone in theire brain.

Kazakhstan, industry best in the world,
we invented toffee and the trouser belt.
Kazakhstan, prostitutes cleanest in the region,
except of course for Turkmenistan's.

Kazakhstan,Kazakhstan, you very nice place,
from plains of tarashenk to northern fence of jewtown.
Come grasp the mighty phenis of our leader,
from juction with testes to tip of its face.


In Kuwait, they played it by mistake at a swimming medal ceremony: ]http://wn.com/kazakhstan_national_anthem__borat_[with_lyrics] (http://wn.com/kazakhstan_national_anthem__borat_%5Bwith_lyrics)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on August 16, 2015, 12:22:10 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2015, 09:11:10 PM
Apologies if this has been posted before but can't be arsed going through all the pages. Jim Jeffries, Aussie comic, nails it here.

https://youtu.be/Jl--YVnni0I

That link has been pulled. Here's another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZPxkRmmH4s

It's possibly the best marshalling of all the arguments against the gun culture I've seen.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 16, 2015, 08:27:44 PM
Quote from: Hardy on August 16, 2015, 12:22:10 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2015, 09:11:10 PM
Apologies if this has been posted before but can't be arsed going through all the pages. Jim Jeffries, Aussie comic, nails it here.

https://youtu.be/Jl--YVnni0I

That link has been pulled. Here's another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZPxkRmmH4s

It's possibly the best marshalling of all the arguments against the gun culture I've seen.

:D

Brilliant stuff!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on August 26, 2015, 02:03:52 PM
This is all kinds of fucked up

Gunman murders reporter and cameraman live on TV this morning

http://gawker.com/gunman-fires-shots-at-virginia-news-crew-during-live-re-1726593659?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 02:15:16 PM
Jesus Christ
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on August 26, 2015, 02:17:38 PM
That is horrible.... just absolutely horrible!!!

Have we had the "They should have been armed and they'd still be alive" nonsense appear yet? It just baffles me!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 26, 2015, 02:40:33 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 26, 2015, 02:17:38 PM
That is horrible.... just absolutely horrible!!!

Have we had the "They should have been armed and they'd still be alive" nonsense appear yet? It just baffles me!!

It won't be long.

America is a sick society in so many ways.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: smort on August 26, 2015, 02:43:22 PM
Your right J70, sick is the only way to describe it. Cannot believe what I have just watched.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GJL on August 26, 2015, 02:51:14 PM
but, but ,but it is their right......
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 02:54:05 PM
I wonder when Madison et al were framing the 2nd Amendment, ie

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

did they ever think anything like this would ever happen? I'd say the hero in that incident is as far removed from the ideals the 'founding fathers' had as is possible to be.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: deiseach on August 26, 2015, 03:00:16 PM
I probably posted this in 2011 in another thread, but it works just as well today:

(http://thismodernworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/TMW2011-01-12acolorlowres-copy.jpg)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: deiseach on August 26, 2015, 03:21:41 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 02:54:05 PM
I wonder when Madison et al were framing the 2nd Amendment, ie

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

did they ever think anything like this would ever happen? I'd say the hero in that incident is as far removed from the ideals the 'founding fathers' had as is possible to be.

Alexander Hamilton thought the Bill of Rights was a terrible idea. He was surely thinking "I told ya so" as his life drained away after Aaron Burr shot him.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 03:29:47 PM
The Virginia Governer has said the suspect, still at large, is a disgruntled station employee.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on August 26, 2015, 04:01:07 PM
(https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/SDsLMeLqS7xmPWrz3rE0UXsW0ys=/600x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3985812/mass%20shootings%20calendar.png)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 26, 2015, 04:17:48 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on August 26, 2015, 04:01:07 PM
(https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/SDsLMeLqS7xmPWrz3rE0UXsW0ys=/600x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3985812/mass%20shootings%20calendar.png)

Is that no. of mass shootings Gab? Or no. of deaths from them?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 04:18:34 PM
Must be number of mass shootings, otherwise 1 wouldn't appear.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on August 26, 2015, 04:20:50 PM
The sick f**ker just tweeted a video of himself doing the shooting on Twitter  :o
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 04:24:21 PM
Only one way this is ending I'd say. An ex reporter that got fired a year ago. I'm listening to the Police Scanner there. They have no idea where he is. Searching for a Silver Chevy. the Scanner is not like Hill Street Blues anyway!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on August 26, 2015, 04:34:26 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on August 26, 2015, 04:20:50 PM
The sick f**ker just tweeted a video of himself doing the shooting on Twitter  :o

You only thought the first video was mental... this looks like a real life Duke Nukem... horrifying!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 04:38:17 PM
On the scanner they just cancelled the BOLO for the Suspect and his Vehicle. Sounds like another PD got him.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on August 26, 2015, 04:45:37 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 04:38:17 PM
On the scanner they just cancelled the BOLO for the Suspect and his Vehicle. Sounds like another PD got him.

He killed himself - the coward
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 04:46:18 PM
That's what I was thinking would happen in my above post.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Boycey on August 26, 2015, 05:10:23 PM
He's not dead but sounds like he soon will be...

Heres a live feed from the station that the tv crew worked for, must be an absolute head-wreaker for the guys working there today. Fair play to them

http://www.wdbj7.com/video/livestreaming
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 26, 2015, 10:12:29 PM
Just waiting for the gun lobby to come out with their twisted logic and say if the two reporters had of been armed this wouldn't have happened. Will the US ever wise up to this scourge?

RIP to the two journalists. Pity the sick ba$tard who did this got his easy way out.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 27, 2015, 12:28:29 AM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on August 26, 2015, 10:12:29 PM
Just waiting for the gun lobby to come out with their twisted logic and say if the two reporters had of been armed this wouldn't have happened. Will the US ever wise up to this scourge?

RIP to the two journalists. Pity the sick ba$tard who did this got his easy way out.

For better or worse, law abiding citizens are guaranteed, under the constitution, the right to bear arms. That won't be changing anytime soon (if ever)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on August 27, 2015, 01:01:02 AM

It was a hand- gun and can t see how any reforms in American gun law could have prevented that. If somebody wants to kill people badly enough they ll find a way.

The scary thing is - from the footage- he could have done it with a knife, axe, machete.

Of course this only strengthens the gun lobby position. Laws are not heeded by people who rob banks and kill people. So gun laws only affect people who are law abiding. You are not allowed to have hand guns and assault rifles in this country but the people that want to get them and use them manage to get them. It doesn t seem to be that difficult if you wan t to.

I d say most Americans are very responsible gun owners. And I can understand why they would want to hold onto their guns when stuff like this happens. It's simple.  The crims and nutters will get guns illegally anyway so what's the point?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 27, 2015, 01:39:49 AM
The gun nuts are happy to live with these mass murders and the everyday background rate of murder as collateral damage of their right to own military - grade assault weapons to "protect" themselves against others with the same access. The rest just don't have the same motivation and basically gave up when Sandy Hook wouldn't even budge the nuts an inch. The lunatics won, and any of us who live in the states could be the victim of some deranged moron who had no problem buying a gun.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on August 27, 2015, 02:21:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on August 27, 2015, 01:39:49 AM
The gun nuts are happy to live with these mass murders and the everyday background rate of murder as collateral damage of their right to own military - grade assault weapons to "protect" themselves against others with the same access. The rest just don't have the same motivation and basically gave up when Sandy Hook wouldn't even budge the nuts an inch. The lunatics won, and any of us who live in the states could be the victim of some deranged moron who had no problem buying a gun.

The deranged moron will have no problem buying a gun anyway, no matter how strict gun laws get - anywhere. Heroin and cocaine are illegal but can be got without too much difficulty. My point is that people that wan t to get a weapon and kill people, will anyway. Any weapon. Look at that Israeli nut that waded into a gay parade pride with a knife and a 16 yr old girl died. Just released from prison he was and continued on his merry way by attacking the next parade he came across. You d have to ban every possible potential weapon down to lollipop sticks to stop a demon like that. Or lock up every potential prospect.

Guns are freely available anyway - probably almost anywhere.

I betcha no candidate running for President will be silly enough to make this an issue. The USA  evolved because of Europeans using guns to get rid of natives (a genocide) and then protect their land.

A big development on the system that controlled Europe for hundreds of years where a minority of killer thugs (knights/barons/princes/earls) built castles and with the backing of holy men (monks) extorted the majority of the population for centuries. The reason they were able to do this was because they had the weapons and were prepared to use them and made sure the peasants had neither weapons or even the opportunity to hunt/fish for food.

It's always a problem when only the bad guys have access to the better weapons.



Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 27, 2015, 08:21:19 AM
Quote from: moysider on August 27, 2015, 02:21:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on August 27, 2015, 01:39:49 AM
The gun nuts are happy to live with these mass murders and the everyday background rate of murder as collateral damage of their right to own military - grade assault weapons to "protect" themselves against others with the same access. The rest just don't have the same motivation and basically gave up when Sandy Hook wouldn't even budge the nuts an inch. The lunatics won, and any of us who live in the states could be the victim of some deranged moron who had no problem buying a gun.

The deranged moron will have no problem buying a gun anyway, no matter how strict gun laws get - anywhere. Heroin and cocaine are illegal but can be got without too much difficulty. My point is that people that wan t to get a weapon and kill people, will anyway. Any weapon. Look at that Israeli nut that waded into a gay parade pride with a knife and a 16 yr old girl died. Just released from prison he was and continued on his merry way by attacking the next parade he came across. You d have to ban every possible potential weapon down to lollipop sticks to stop a demon like that. Or lock up every potential prospect.

Guns are freely available anyway - probably almost anywhere.

I betcha no candidate running for President will be silly enough to make this an issue. The USA  evolved because of Europeans using guns to get rid of natives (a genocide) and then protect their land.

A big development on the system that controlled Europe for hundreds of years where a minority of killer thugs (knights/barons/princes/earls) built castles and with the backing of holy men (monks) extorted the majority of the population for centuries. The reason they were able to do this was because they had the weapons and were prepared to use them and made sure the peasants had neither weapons or even the opportunity to hunt/fish for food.

It's always a problem when only the bad guys have access to the better weapons.


The problem is this culture has been allowed to develop. Anyone with the intent to kill someone will do it regardless but when getting your hands on a gun of any kind is so easy it's only going to make it easier for those that want to shoot someone to do it. It's impossible to prevent every last killing but tightening gun control can only reduce it.

Are we saying that there are more homicidal maniacs running around America that any other civilised country and they'd be killing people regardless of how hard it was to get their hands on a gun?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GJL on August 27, 2015, 08:54:37 AM
Quote from: moysider on August 27, 2015, 02:21:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on August 27, 2015, 01:39:49 AM
The gun nuts are happy to live with these mass murders and the everyday background rate of murder as collateral damage of their right to own military - grade assault weapons to "protect" themselves against others with the same access. The rest just don't have the same motivation and basically gave up when Sandy Hook wouldn't even budge the nuts an inch. The lunatics won, and any of us who live in the states could be the victim of some deranged moron who had no problem buying a gun.

The deranged moron will have no problem buying a gun anyway, no matter how strict gun laws get - anywhere. Heroin and cocaine are illegal but can be got without too much difficulty. My point is that people that wan t to get a weapon and kill people, will anyway. Any weapon. Look at that Israeli nut that waded into a gay parade pride with a knife and a 16 yr old girl died. Just released from prison he was and continued on his merry way by attacking the next parade he came across. You d have to ban every possible potential weapon down to lollipop sticks to stop a demon like that. Or lock up every potential prospect.

Guns are freely available anyway - probably almost anywhere.

I betcha no candidate running for President will be silly enough to make this an issue. The USA  evolved because of Europeans using guns to get rid of natives (a genocide) and then protect their land.

A big development on the system that controlled Europe for hundreds of years where a minority of killer thugs (knights/barons/princes/earls) built castles and with the backing of holy men (monks) extorted the majority of the population for centuries. The reason they were able to do this was because they had the weapons and were prepared to use them and made sure the peasants had neither weapons or even the opportunity to hunt/fish for food.

It's always a problem when only the bad guys have access to the better weapons.

If gun laws were as tight in the USA as they are here there would be people alive today who are long dead..
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: macdanger2 on August 27, 2015, 09:13:30 AM
Quote from: moysider on August 27, 2015, 02:21:38 AM
The deranged moron will have no problem buying a gun anyway, no matter how strict gun laws get - anywhere. Heroin and cocaine are illegal but can be got without too much difficulty. My point is that people that wan t to get a weapon and kill people, will anyway.

By that logic, should heroin and cocaine also be legal seeing as people can already get them anywhere.

Whatever about handguns or hunting guns being legal, there's no reason anybody should be able to buy a semi-automatic or other sophisticated guns (apart from the gun companies' need to sell them)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on August 27, 2015, 09:25:45 AM
Quote from: moysider on August 27, 2015, 02:21:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on August 27, 2015, 01:39:49 AM
The gun nuts are happy to live with these mass murders and the everyday background rate of murder as collateral damage of their right to own military - grade assault weapons to "protect" themselves against others with the same access. The rest just don't have the same motivation and basically gave up when Sandy Hook wouldn't even budge the nuts an inch. The lunatics won, and any of us who live in the states could be the victim of some deranged moron who had no problem buying a gun.

The deranged moron will have no problem buying a gun anyway, no matter how strict gun laws get - anywhere. Heroin and cocaine are illegal but can be got without too much difficulty. My point is that people that wan t to get a weapon and kill people, will anyway. Any weapon. Look at that Israeli nut that waded into a gay parade pride with a knife and a 16 yr old girl died. Just released from prison he was and continued on his merry way by attacking the next parade he came across. You d have to ban every possible potential weapon down to lollipop sticks to stop a demon like that. Or lock up every potential prospect.

Guns are freely available anyway - probably almost anywhere.

I betcha no candidate running for President will be silly enough to make this an issue. The USA  evolved because of Europeans using guns to get rid of natives (a genocide) and then protect their land.

A big development on the system that controlled Europe for hundreds of years where a minority of killer thugs (knights/barons/princes/earls) built castles and with the backing of holy men (monks) extorted the majority of the population for centuries. The reason they were able to do this was because they had the weapons and were prepared to use them and made sure the peasants had neither weapons or even the opportunity to hunt/fish for food.

It's always a problem when only the bad guys have access to the better weapons.

How many mass lollipop attacks are there every year? or even mass stabbings?
This is the sort of nonsense argument I cant get my head around.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on August 27, 2015, 09:30:51 AM
Crazy argument.

Yes a seriously homicidal and deranged maniac is going to find a way to kill people if need be.

If guns become illegal I'm guaranteeing it will deter a lot of maniacs from taking that final step to getting a gun and actually killing people. The fact it is so easy to get a gun means that we are seeing a greater occurence of these massacres!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: theskull1 on August 27, 2015, 09:43:03 AM
Crazy that people are blind to that argument
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: deiseach on August 27, 2015, 09:43:43 AM
Quote from: moysider on August 27, 2015, 02:21:38 AM
A big development on the system that controlled Europe for hundreds of years where a minority of killer thugs (knights/barons/princes/earls) built castles and with the backing of holy men (monks) extorted the majority of the population for centuries. The reason they were able to do this was because they had the weapons and were prepared to use them and made sure the peasants had neither weapons or even the opportunity to hunt/fish for food.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but how is a situation where everyone has the capacity for lethal violence an improvement on one where the state, whether it be feudal lords, the church, or the modern day nation state, has a monopoly on lethal violence?

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 27, 2015, 10:04:49 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 27, 2015, 09:30:51 AM
Crazy argument.

Yes a seriously homicidal and deranged maniac is going to find a way to kill people if need be.

If guns become illegal I'm guaranteeing it will deter a lot of maniacs from taking that final step to getting a gun and actually killing people. The fact it is so easy to get a gun means that we are seeing a greater occurence of these massacres!

Add in the factor that people who are not necessarily crazy deranged lunatics can get depressed, angry, scared or whatever and if they have a gun to hand, bad things happen.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 27, 2015, 11:17:18 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on August 27, 2015, 09:43:03 AM
Crazy that people are blind to that argument

+1

I really can't see how anyone could argue against the fact that controlling guns would greatly reduce the murder rate in the US. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that you can prevent every last murder but you can certainly take action to dramatically reduce it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Denn Forever on August 27, 2015, 12:48:53 PM
It is our 2nd Ammendment right to have guns,

An amendment is a formal or official change made to a law, contract, constitution, or other legal document. It is based on the verb to amend, which means to change. Amendments can add, remove, or update parts of these agreements. They are often used when it is better to change the document than to write a new one.[1]

So it's not set in stone.  I wonder do Americans know this?




Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: deiseach on August 27, 2015, 12:54:19 PM
It's not set in stone, but the chances of getting an amendment to the 2nd Amendment at the moment are nil. Not almost nil. Nil.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: mikehunt on August 27, 2015, 01:01:35 PM
Quote from: moysider on August 27, 2015, 02:21:38 AM
Look at that Israeli nut that waded into a gay parade pride with a knife and a 16 yr old girl died. Just released from prison he was and continued on his merry way by attacking the next parade he came across. You d have to ban every possible potential weapon down to lollipop sticks to stop a demon like that. Or lock up every potential prospect.


Don't know about the gun laws in Israel but I'm guessing if they were freely available he would have gone with a gun rather than a knife and there would have been more than one person murdered.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 27, 2015, 02:07:03 PM
Quote from: mikehunt on August 27, 2015, 01:01:35 PM
Quote from: moysider on August 27, 2015, 02:21:38 AM
Look at that Israeli nut that waded into a gay parade pride with a knife and a 16 yr old girl died. Just released from prison he was and continued on his merry way by attacking the next parade he came across. You d have to ban every possible potential weapon down to lollipop sticks to stop a demon like that. Or lock up every potential prospect.


Don't know about the gun laws in Israel but I'm guessing if they were freely available he would have gone with a gun rather than a knife and there would have been more than one person murdered.

These things can happen in any country and by any means. It's the level of regularity at which these murders take place in the US that sets it apart.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on August 27, 2015, 02:58:14 PM
we can all huff and puff about it as much as we want. The 2nd amendment isn't going to change in this generation or the next. 
people agree that reform is necessary but the reform would target law abiding citizens - not criminals (in their eyes)

It's a screwed up situation. And people die every day because of it
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on August 27, 2015, 03:18:10 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on August 27, 2015, 02:58:14 PM
we can all huff and puff about it as much as we want. The 2nd amendment isn't going to change in this generation or the next. 
people agree that reform is necessary but the reform would target law abiding citizens - not criminals (in their eyes)

It's a screwed up situation. And people die every day because of it

People were law abiding when slavery and segregation and lack of women's suffrage were in place. Society evolves moves on and people have to move with it
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on August 27, 2015, 03:55:09 PM
Quote from: gallsman on August 27, 2015, 03:18:10 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on August 27, 2015, 02:58:14 PM
we can all huff and puff about it as much as we want. The 2nd amendment isn't going to change in this generation or the next. 
people agree that reform is necessary but the reform would target law abiding citizens - not criminals (in their eyes)

It's a screwed up situation. And people die every day because of it

People were law abiding when slavery and segregation and lack of women's suffrage were in place. Society evolves moves on and people have to move with it
I don't disagree with any of that - but most of America does unfortunately
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 27, 2015, 04:10:28 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on August 27, 2015, 03:55:09 PM
Quote from: gallsman on August 27, 2015, 03:18:10 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on August 27, 2015, 02:58:14 PM
we can all huff and puff about it as much as we want. The 2nd amendment isn't going to change in this generation or the next. 
people agree that reform is necessary but the reform would target law abiding citizens - not criminals (in their eyes)

It's a screwed up situation. And people die every day because of it

People were law abiding when slavery and segregation and lack of women's suffrage were in place. Society evolves moves on and people have to move with it
I don't disagree with any of that - but most of America does unfortunately

When it suits them they do. America has become one of the most PC countries in the world. But it's lobby groups, money and influence that shapes their society. So unless you can out lobby the gun lobby, you're fucked.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on August 27, 2015, 04:15:27 PM
I get frustrated with it AZ.  We create this big stir in the media around the globe. The people are divided. Its coming in to election season now full swing but nothing changes.
Blue or red. They are all the same - controlled by big business and the gold coin.....
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 27, 2015, 04:21:04 PM
Lads, should we laugh or cry?? He's well named anyway...

QuoteErich Pratt is director of communications with Gun Owners of America. He told Newstalk Breakfast guns actually protect people from harm.

"Good guys with guns in this country stop mass shootings from occurring and it happens all the time" he said.

"Just recently in the state of Ohio a guy was kicked out of a bar, he got angry, went home, grabbed a shot gun (and) came back to the bar firing".

"But thankfully in our country we allow citizens to carry firearms - nobody was killed because somebody who works there in that bar pulled out his concealed firearms (and) shot and killed the guy" he added.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on August 27, 2015, 04:26:38 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 27, 2015, 04:21:04 PM
Lads, should we laugh or cry?? He's well named anyway...

QuoteErich Pratt is director of communications with Gun Owners of America. He told Newstalk Breakfast guns actually protect people from harm.

"Good guys with guns in this country stop mass shootings from occurring and it happens all the time" he said.

"Just recently in the state of Ohio a guy was kicked out of a bar, he got angry, went home, grabbed a shot gun (and) came back to the bar firing".

"But thankfully in our country we allow citizens to carry firearms - nobody was killed because somebody who works there in that bar pulled out his concealed firearms (and) shot and killed the guy" he added.

No mention of the fact that if the guy kicked out of the bar didn't have access to a shotgun there's a fair chance nobody would have been killed!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 27, 2015, 04:27:52 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 27, 2015, 04:26:38 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 27, 2015, 04:21:04 PM
Lads, should we laugh or cry?? He's well named anyway...

QuoteErich Pratt is director of communications with Gun Owners of America. He told Newstalk Breakfast guns actually protect people from harm.

"Good guys with guns in this country stop mass shootings from occurring and it happens all the time" he said.

"Just recently in the state of Ohio a guy was kicked out of a bar, he got angry, went home, grabbed a shot gun (and) came back to the bar firing".

"But thankfully in our country we allow citizens to carry firearms - nobody was killed because somebody who works there in that bar pulled out his concealed firearms (and) shot and killed the guy" he added.

No mention of the fact that if the guy kicked out of the bar didn't have access to a shotgun there's a fair chance nobody would have been killed!!

Exactly. So much bollix in 3 sentences.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on August 27, 2015, 04:48:19 PM
I heard that guy on Newstalk. He started off all sweetness and (twisted) logic but he gradually started losing it as the interviewer asked tougher questions. When he was asked if he thought there would be fewer mass killings if there were fewer guns available, he started ranting about the interviewer wanting to impose his standards and had to be reminded that the interviewer had only asked a question.

He finished off by saying that he and his organisation would not be in favour of background checks for gun buyers because, among other things, men aren't background checked for adultery before being given a marriage license. The interviewer didn't get to ask him how many people had been killed in mass marriages in the last year.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Denn Forever on August 27, 2015, 05:20:32 PM
A little lite relief.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTyQ4Q8z-D8
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 27, 2015, 05:33:52 PM
Quote from: Hardy on August 27, 2015, 04:48:19 PM
I heard that guy on Newstalk. He started off all sweetness and (twisted) logic but he gradually started losing it as the interviewer asked tougher questions. When he was asked if he thought there would be fewer mass killings if there were fewer guns available, he started ranting about the interviewer wanting to impose his standards and had to be reminded that the interviewer had only asked a question.

He finished off by saying that he and his organisation would not be in favour of background checks for gun buyers because, among other things, men aren't background checked for adultery before being given a marriage license. The interviewer didn't get to ask him how many people had been killed in mass marriages in the last year.

;D ;DWhat an eejit

Nearly as bad as comparing feigning injury to genocide, eh Hardy ;)

You gotta laugh tho at radio shows getting these eejits on for a bit of stupidity so that we can all have a good chuckle at them.

A majority of Americans like having guns, and like playing with them, legally and safely it must be said. But at the end of the day, thats what it all boils down to. The silly arguments that are spun for keeping them are just a justification of that fact.

They dont see it as worth the sacrifice to give them up, its as much to do with the rise of individualism as anything else. "Why should I do...x, y, z, just because he did....x,y,z"
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 27, 2015, 06:28:18 PM
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

The stats revealed her make for interesting reading.

I have no problem with law abiding citizens owning guns, but more must be done to tighten background checks and keep guns out of the hnds of the mentally unstable.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on August 27, 2015, 08:12:24 PM
It is too easy to say that bad guys will always get guns. This may be true, but regular mad people don't generally have easy access to criminal circles. They may get a knife, but as stated above this might mean they kill one rather than many, a worthwhile gain.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on August 27, 2015, 08:15:22 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 27, 2015, 08:12:24 PM
It is too easy to say that bad guys will always get guns. This may be true, but regular mad people don't generally have easy access to criminal circles. They may get a knife, but as stated above this might mean they kill one rather than many, a worthwhile gain.

But whats the answer? Give me a solution that can credibly work? An amnesty isn't going to happen. Background checks going forward wont solve the millions of guns on the street today.
I just don't see an answer that will work given the history of the country and knowing the people on the ground
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on August 27, 2015, 08:31:22 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on August 27, 2015, 08:15:22 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 27, 2015, 08:12:24 PM
It is too easy to say that bad guys will always get guns. This may be true, but regular mad people don't generally have easy access to criminal circles. They may get a knife, but as stated above this might mean they kill one rather than many, a worthwhile gain.

But whats the answer? Give me a solution that can credibly work? An amnesty isn't going to happen. Background checks going forward wont solve the millions of guns on the street today.
I just don't see an answer that will work given the history of the country and knowing the people on the ground

Exactly. The situation is irretrievable. There's no going back from where America is now to where the rest of the civilised world stands on gun control. Mass killings and mad gun-toting rampages are here to stay in the USA.

Two things would worry you:
1) Given how American culture gradually colonises the rest of the English-speaking the world through its domination of global media and entertainment, there's a danger that, rather than America seeing sense and copying us on gun control, the American attitude to guns might get exported along with Hollywood, rap and America, f**k yeah.
2) The American attitude that a gun is the answer to so many problems goes all the way in their society - up to foreign policy level. Except they have more than guns at that level. A declining economic power with nuclear firepower and the proven willingness to use it is the international relations equivalent of a drunken cowboy in a saloon with a bazooka, who has just lost his year's wages at the poker table.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on August 27, 2015, 09:02:12 PM
The Yank on Matt Cooper lost the plot this evening.

Started talking along the lines of  'this is our United States of America and guns are our freedom. People dying is the price you pay for freedom! You people don't understand and to be honest you shouldn't concern yourselves with what's going on in our Country!!'

I'm remember the guy Piers Morgan had on his show a few years ago... It was pretty ridiculous the guy basically wouldn't engage at all ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZvMwcluEg
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 27, 2015, 09:27:46 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 27, 2015, 09:02:12 PM
The Yank on Matt Cooper lost the plot this evening.

Started talking along the lines of  'this is our United States of America and guns are our freedom. People dying is the price you pay for freedom! You people don't understand and to be honest you shouldn't concern yourselves with what's going on in our Country!!'

I'm remember the guy Piers Morgan had on his show a few years ago... It was pretty ridiculous the guy basically wouldn't engage at all ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZvMwcluEg

What a nut case. And your man on arguing the 2nd amendment is a pure nut job as well.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GJL on August 27, 2015, 09:45:32 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 27, 2015, 09:02:12 PM
The Yank on Matt Cooper lost the plot this evening.

Started talking along the lines of  'this is our United States of America and guns are our freedom. People dying is the price you pay for freedom! You people don't understand and to be honest you shouldn't concern yourselves with what's going on in our Country!!'

I'm remember the guy Piers Morgan had on his show a few years ago... It was pretty ridiculous the guy basically wouldn't engage at all ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZvMwcluEg

Jesus! That is mental. The guy is completely nuts. If anything he is showing exactly why there needs to be more gun control and checks on people's mental health before the get a gun. He has 50 of them! :o :o :o
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on August 27, 2015, 10:04:05 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 27, 2015, 09:02:12 PM
The Yank on Matt Cooper lost the plot this evening.

Started talking along the lines of  'this is our United States of America and guns are our freedom. People dying is the price you pay for freedom! You people don't understand and to be honest you shouldn't concern yourselves with what's going on in our Country!!'

I'm remember the guy Piers Morgan had on his show a few years ago... It was pretty ridiculous the guy basically wouldn't engage at all ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZvMwcluEg

It's good to hear the crazy people telling us why the crazy people have guns.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stpauls on August 28, 2015, 02:34:28 PM
saw the video below the other day, mind blowing how many people have died at the hands of a gun which was bought for protection purposes!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nAfWfF4TjM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nAfWfF4TjM)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 28, 2015, 11:17:28 PM
Quote from: GJL on August 27, 2015, 09:45:32 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 27, 2015, 09:02:12 PM
The Yank on Matt Cooper lost the plot this evening.

Started talking along the lines of  'this is our United States of America and guns are our freedom. People dying is the price you pay for freedom! You people don't understand and to be honest you shouldn't concern yourselves with what's going on in our Country!!'

I'm remember the guy Piers Morgan had on his show a few years ago... It was pretty ridiculous the guy basically wouldn't engage at all ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZvMwcluEg

Jesus! That is mental. The guy is completely nuts. If anything he is showing exactly why there needs to be more gun control and checks on people's mental health before the get a gun. He has 50 of them! :o :o :o


Thats feckin hilarious, reminds me why the TV in our house only gets a run out of about 3 hrs a week, eejits like that are on all the time.

I was kind of impressed by yer man actually, he appeared to be quite articulate, was able to refer to a bunch of facts, and all the while appearing to be in a blind rage which he sustained for an incredible length of time. And he threw in a great impression at the end! Seem like he'd be quare craic in the pub, obviously you'd only pint with him in a place that had metal detectors on the door tho.

Serves Morgan right tho, in his arrogance he thought he was going to have a debate with yer man and instead got the full on hairdryer treatment. If every tabloid journalist got a touch of that every week the world would be a better place!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on August 29, 2015, 12:19:18 AM
American really do come across as so stupid and cant see right from wrong. When did the 2nd amendment  come in 1791, in a world where they freely run slaves, where America was a new wild frontier, a country prior to the genocide of the Indian wars, (they still think they done nothing wrong there) so many of the states as yet did not even exist, the wild west was really that the wild west. a country which still had  a million bison before they were massacred for skins. So since that time, theres about 4000 bison left, the native American were eradicated and shipped out to reservations on the poorest land only got round to black people been equally 60yrs ago (some say they still treated unequal)

So for some dumb f**ks to use the 2nd amendment from 1791 (when a gun was a powder single shot rifle which could shoot 2 shots a minute to a  semi automatic which can fire up to 500 a minute).as there right  to use guns is a crock of shit, they claim to be the land of the free and all for democracy but are so short sighted that they don't even protect their citizens. Money talks and the gun industry is all about making money. makes you wonder how they voted to end slavery but are so stupid not to clamp down on guns
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on August 29, 2015, 01:53:24 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 29, 2015, 12:19:18 AM
American really do come across as so stupid and cant see right from wrong. When did the 2nd amendment  come in 1791, in a world where they freely run slaves, where America was a new wild frontier, a country prior to the genocide of the Indian wars, (they still think they done nothing wrong there) so many of the states as yet did not even exist, the wild west was really that the wild west. a country which still had  a million bison before they were massacred for skins. So since that time, theres about 4000 bison left, the native American were eradicated and shipped out to reservations on the poorest land only got round to black people been equally 60yrs ago (some say they still treated unequal)

So for some dumb f**ks to use the 2nd amendment from 1791 (when a gun was a powder single shot rifle which could shoot 2 shots a minute to a  semi automatic which can fire up to 500 a minute).as there right  to use guns is a crock of shit, they claim to be the land of the free and all for democracy but are so short sighted that they don't even protect their citizens. Money talks and the gun industry is all about making money. makes you wonder how they voted to end slavery but are so stupid not to clamp down on guns

You ve kinda raised issues here and answered them at the same time.

The bottom line is though that the U.S are not going to give up their guns. No Presidential candidate would touch that issue with a barge pole. Al Gore arguably lost crucial states because he made shapes about gun control. He probably would have president if he avoided the issue.
Every time a 'nutter' goes nasty probably increases sales of firearms among regular people really when you think about it. There are so many weapons out there anyway those that want to go to town will have no problem getting them. I'm bemused by people reaction to my earlier posts. Restrictive gun laws only take guns away from people less likely to use them. We have restrictive gun laws here and when crims want to do a job they have no problem getting a banned weapon.

Also politically the US is complicated. They don t trust central government (remember Regan's quote 'government is the problem ')  and got their independence with a long drawn out revolution where the continental army went through great losses. We tried to copy them but we failed because we didn t have the guns among other reasons. The British general that surrendered to Washington at Yorktown, was the same man that Humbert surrendered to at Ballinamuck not too many years later.

In their civil war Americans slaughtered each others in battles like Gettysburg and Bull Run I and II. Bull run II was up there in the casualty stakes with some of the 'celebrated WWI battles'. They are well used to coping with casualties since with WWI an II, Korea, Vietnam etc. A kid going nuts in a school or whatever is small beer in the big picture.

The idea that Americans will give up their weapons is a non runner
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on August 29, 2015, 02:35:34 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 29, 2015, 12:19:18 AM
American really do come across as so stupid and cant see right from wrong. When did the 2nd amendment  come in 1791, in a world where they freely run slaves, where America was a new wild frontier, a country prior to the genocide of the Indian wars, (they still think they done nothing wrong there) so many of the states as yet did not even exist, the wild west was really that the wild west. a country which still had  a million bison before they were massacred for skins. So since that time, theres about 4000 bison left, the native American were eradicated and shipped out to reservations on the poorest land only got round to black people been equally 60yrs ago (some say they still treated unequal)

So for some dumb f**ks to use the 2nd amendment from 1791 (when a gun was a powder single shot rifle which could shoot 2 shots a minute to a  semi automatic which can fire up to 500 a minute).as there right  to use guns is a crock of shit, they claim to be the land of the free and all for democracy but are so short sighted that they don't even protect their citizens. Money talks and the gun industry is all about making money. makes you wonder how they voted to end slavery but are so stupid not to clamp down on guns

The only time an amendment was ever repealed in the US was the alcohol prohibition amendment, almost a century ago now.   Altering an amendment requires firstly 2/3 of congress and 2/3 of the senate to approve, and this then requires ratification by 2/3 of the individual state governments.  There is just no way that those figures could be attained for at least a generation or two.  Guns are here to stay.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Niall Quinn on August 29, 2015, 04:54:51 AM
Is the attention given to American gun culture disproportionate?
From the most recent UN data (see below url), the U.S. is some 25% below the world average homicide per capita rate, and in 2012, Mexico had almost twice the number of total murders.
Should Brazil (50k murders in 2012) be the focus of the international community instead? Or Honduras, where you're 20 times more likely to be murdered than the U.S.?

I'm not intending in any way to undermine recent events, and my views on gun control are probably in line with the excellent Australian comedian Hardy posted a link to previously.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 29, 2015, 05:36:56 AM
Quote from: Niall Quinn on August 29, 2015, 04:54:51 AM
Is the attention given to American gun culture disproportionate?
From the most recent UN data (see below url), the U.S. is some 25% below the world average homicide per capita rate, and in 2012, Mexico had almost twice the number of total murders.
Should Brazil (50k murders in 2012) be the focus of the international community instead? Or Honduras, where you're 20 times more likely to be murdered than the U.S.?

I'm not intending in any way to undermine recent events, and my views on gun control are probably in line with the excellent Australian comedian Hardy posted a link to previously.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

I think your right there big Quinno. Far to much obsessing about it by the media of foreign countries when it has no affect on them whatsoever. Ultimately its no one else's business but Americans

The flip side of that is of course that thanks to American media and mass immigration from many different parts of the world we all know about America and think we understand it quite well. But then we actually don't, precisely for that reason that their are so many cultures and so many different starting points that people have came from to arrive at the present. Yet non-Americans have no problem casting judgement on those people looking at it purely from their own background, values and point of view. Indeed you could maybe even argue that is the problem in America itself, that people are more and more only focused on their own point of view and dismiss any1 differing from them as a total craicpot.

I've travelled a fair bit in vastly different cultures to Western, and something that I have to learn over and over again is to not to make judgement about other cultures based on my own values. You'll either go insane or get lynched! Americans (and a good deal of Irish too for that matter) love getting in a fuss over Saudi Arabia and their human rights. But few people have any understanding of Saudi culture, their way of life, values or history. Or perhaps more importantly, the fact that what happens in Saudi Arabia has virtually no affect on their own lives.  Yet, they have no problem in casting judgement on it as being the epitome of barbarism.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on August 29, 2015, 07:36:00 AM
Americans have no problem blowing about how superior they are to everyone else, some comment in the other direction will help balance things.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on August 29, 2015, 09:05:37 AM
Exactly, this nonsense about how it's nobody else's business and there are countries in worse positions completely overlooks the fact that America is the global superpower, "the land of the free", " the leader of the free world" etc

Brazil, Mexico, Honduras etc are not first world countries.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: macdanger2 on August 29, 2015, 09:37:20 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 29, 2015, 05:36:56 AM
Quote from: Niall Quinn on August 29, 2015, 04:54:51 AM
Is the attention given to American gun culture disproportionate?
From the most recent UN data (see below url), the U.S. is some 25% below the world average homicide per capita rate, and in 2012, Mexico had almost twice the number of total murders.
Should Brazil (50k murders in 2012) be the focus of the international community instead? Or Honduras, where you're 20 times more likely to be murdered than the U.S.?

I'm not intending in any way to undermine recent events, and my views on gun control are probably in line with the excellent Australian comedian Hardy posted a link to previously.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

I think your right there big Quinno. Far to much obsessing about it by the media of foreign countries when it has no affect on them whatsoever. Ultimately its no one else's business but Americans

The flip side of that is of course that thanks to American media and mass immigration from many different parts of the world we all know about America and think we understand it quite well. But then we actually don't, precisely for that reason that their are so many cultures and so many different starting points that people have came from to arrive at the present. Yet non-Americans have no problem casting judgement on those people looking at it purely from their own background, values and point of view. Indeed you could maybe even argue that is the problem in America itself, that people are more and more only focused on their own point of view and dismiss any1 differing from them as a total craicpot.

I've travelled a fair bit in vastly different cultures to Western, and something that I have to learn over and over again is to not to make judgement about other cultures based on my own values. You'll either go insane or get lynched! Americans (and a good deal of Irish too for that matter) love getting in a fuss over Saudi Arabia and their human rights. But few people have any understanding of Saudi culture, their way of life, values or history. Or perhaps more importantly, the fact that what happens in Saudi Arabia has virtually no affect on their own lives.  Yet, they have no problem in casting judgement on it as being the epitome of barbarism.

Kind of an isolationist viewpoint there joe
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on August 29, 2015, 12:01:22 PM
Nobody else business/ Hell if they kept to that ideology we wouldn't have the cluster f**k going on in Iraq and along the Syrian borders at the minute. The previous dictactor Saddam was  a heinous individual but 2 Iraq wars totalled for more Iraq's killed than the iran-iraq 7yrs war. i don't see Bush or Blair been brought to task for that. they are the main reason the middle east a  f**king mess. Its a pity they didn't mind they own business back round 1947-49 when Israel was palestine to the Americans butted in, that hasn't went too well since.

look at Cuba, Korea, Vietnam, the American have a habit of butting into things not their business, so i think we just butt into theirs
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 29, 2015, 12:26:15 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 29, 2015, 12:01:22 PM
Nobody else business/ Hell if they kept to that ideology we wouldn't have the cluster f**k going on in Iraq and along the Syrian borders at the minute. The previous dictactor Saddam was  a heinous individual but 2 Iraq wars totalled for more Iraq's killed than the iran-iraq 7yrs war. i don't see Bush or Blair been brought to task for that. they are the main reason the middle east a  f**king mess. Its a pity they didn't mind they own business back round 1947-49 when Israel was palestine to the Americans butted in, that hasn't went too well since.

look at Cuba, Korea, Vietnam, the American have a habit of butting into things not their business, so i think we just butt into theirs


Do they teach history where you went to school?  Google the "Cold War" and maybe you'll  figure out why they were "butting in". 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on August 29, 2015, 01:42:24 PM
I fair say i know alot more about the cold war than you, Americas paranoid on communism is well documented. maybe if you didn't put Nuclear weapons sites in turkey leading to the Cuban missile crisis the cold war mightn't have kicked off. Am surprised you know, since most Americans seem stuck back in 1791, in a way alot like Northen Ireland half them are still stuck back with King Billy in 1690
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 29, 2015, 02:13:54 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 29, 2015, 01:42:24 PM
I fair say i know alot more about the cold war than you, Americas paranoid on communism is well documented. maybe if you didn't put Nuclear weapons sites in turkey leading to the Cuban missile crisis the cold war mightn't have kicked off. Am surprised you know, since most Americans seem stuck back in 1791, in a way alot like Northen Ireland half them are still stuck back with King Billy in 1690

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes


I'm sure the 80-100 M people who died under communist dictatorships would respectfully disagree with you
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trileacman on August 29, 2015, 07:06:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 29, 2015, 02:13:54 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 29, 2015, 01:42:24 PM
I fair say i know alot more about the cold war than you, Americas paranoid on communism is well documented. maybe if you didn't put Nuclear weapons sites in turkey leading to the Cuban missile crisis the cold war mightn't have kicked off. Am surprised you know, since most Americans seem stuck back in 1791, in a way alot like Northen Ireland half them are still stuck back with King Billy in 1690

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes


I'm sure the 80-100 M people who died under communist dictatorships would respectfully disagree with you
And the millions slaughtered under by U.S. Forces and capitalist banana republics would disagree with you ya f**king idiot.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 29, 2015, 08:36:57 PM
Quote from: trileacman on August 29, 2015, 07:06:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 29, 2015, 02:13:54 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 29, 2015, 01:42:24 PM
I fair say i know alot more about the cold war than you, Americas paranoid on communism is well documented. maybe if you didn't put Nuclear weapons sites in turkey leading to the Cuban missile crisis the cold war mightn't have kicked off. Am surprised you know, since most Americans seem stuck back in 1791, in a way alot like Northen Ireland half them are still stuck back with King Billy in 1690

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes


I'm sure the 80-100 M people who died under communist dictatorships would respectfully disagree with you
And the millions slaughtered under by U.S. Forces and capitalist banana republics would disagree with you ya f**king idiot.


LOL-Stalin, Mao , Pol Pot. US doesn't hold a candle to them. Someone must have stolen the history books out of your bag my friend.

FFS it took 3 yanks to stop the gunman on the train last week while the French train guards hid in their booth
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on August 29, 2015, 08:48:29 PM
don't forget the brit whitey- 4 of them got the Legion of Honor medal.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 30, 2015, 04:21:36 AM
Listen lads if you think its your business, or if your opinion (which you are completely entitled to BTW) makes any odds to Americans' opinions, or the laws their government creates, your sadly mistaken.

Whats more, if your opinion had any weight it would likely be viewed negatively and get people's back up even more.

The gun culture in America is nuts of course, but remember your looking at it from your own perspective.

I'll harp back again to the thing of individualism, its a lot stronger in America than it is in Ireland where people tend to look at their community and country as more of a collective. So in America, if you tell one guy with guns that is doing no harm to anyone, that you are gonna take his guns away because someone else done something bad, he will not understand it. He really literally wouldn't understand or get that it is for the greater good. Whereas in Ireland I think that there is be more of an acceptance of "takin one for the team" or whatever.

That of course only deals with individuals opinions tho, which despite the facade of democracy is actually irrelevant to the laws. The real reason there is no gun control in America is because the lobby groups have so many politicians in their pockets.

Anyway since getting rid of the guns unfortunately appears to be off the table, debating it to death is futile and only causes more division. A more productive approach might be to float some alternative solutions to America's societal problems.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on August 30, 2015, 07:36:15 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 30, 2015, 04:21:36 AM
Listen lads if you think its your business, or if your opinion (which you are completely entitled to BTW) makes any odds to Americans' opinions, or the laws their government creates, your sadly mistaken.

Whats more, if your opinion had any weight it would likely be viewed negatively and get people's back up even more.

The gun culture in America is nuts of course, but remember your looking at it from your own perspective.

I'll harp back again to the thing of individualism, its a lot stronger in America than it is in Ireland where people tend to look at their community and country as more of a collective. So in America, if you tell one guy with guns that is doing no harm to anyone, that you are gonna take his guns away because someone else done something bad, he will not understand it. He really literally wouldn't understand or get that it is for the greater good. Whereas in Ireland I think that there is be more of an acceptance of "takin one for the team" or whatever.

That of course only deals with individuals opinions tho, which despite the facade of democracy is actually irrelevant to the laws. The real reason there is no gun control in America is because the lobby groups have so many politicians in their pockets.

Anyway since getting rid of the guns unfortunately appears to be off the table, debating it to death is futile and only causes more division. A more productive approach might be to float some alternative solutions to America's societal problems.

If you think that any of us are under any impression that our opinions make any odds to the laws of the United States, then you are sadly mistaken. You appear to be under the impression that 99.9% of Americans support the status quo on guns and again, despite living there, you are sadly mistaken.

Your point about the futility on the debate of the issues is pathetic and amounts to "it's a difficult issue to confront, so let's not even bother". If more people thought like that blacks would still be picking cotton under slavery, women wouldn't be allowed vote, Catholics couldn't get jobs and Mandela would have died in prison. Embarrassing.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 30, 2015, 01:46:09 PM
Quote from: heganboy on August 29, 2015, 08:48:29 PM
don't forget the brit whitey- 4 of them got the Legion of Honor medal.

Jaysus Hegan, if I start praising Tans as well they'll lose the plot completely
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 31, 2015, 06:52:45 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 30, 2015, 07:36:15 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 30, 2015, 04:21:36 AM
Listen lads if you think its your business, or if your opinion (which you are completely entitled to BTW) makes any odds to Americans' opinions, or the laws their government creates, your sadly mistaken.

Whats more, if your opinion had any weight it would likely be viewed negatively and get people's back up even more.

The gun culture in America is nuts of course, but remember your looking at it from your own perspective.

I'll harp back again to the thing of individualism, its a lot stronger in America than it is in Ireland where people tend to look at their community and country as more of a collective. So in America, if you tell one guy with guns that is doing no harm to anyone, that you are gonna take his guns away because someone else done something bad, he will not understand it. He really literally wouldn't understand or get that it is for the greater good. Whereas in Ireland I think that there is be more of an acceptance of "takin one for the team" or whatever.

That of course only deals with individuals opinions tho, which despite the facade of democracy is actually irrelevant to the laws. The real reason there is no gun control in America is because the lobby groups have so many politicians in their pockets.

Anyway since getting rid of the guns unfortunately appears to be off the table, debating it to death is futile and only causes more division. A more productive approach might be to float some alternative solutions to America's societal problems.

If you think that any of us are under any impression that our opinions make any odds to the laws of the United States, then you are sadly mistaken.

If you dont that's fine but Armaghniac's post would appear to directly contradict that.

Quote
You appear to be under the impression that 99.9% of Americans support the Saturdays quo on guns and again, despite living there, you are sadly mistaken.

Why do I appear to be under that impression? I never said anything of the sort

Quote
Your point about the futility on the debate of the issues is pathetic and amounts to "it's a difficult issue to confront, so let's not even bother". If more people thought like that blacks would still be picking cotton under slavery, women wouldn't be allowed vote, Catholics couldn't get jobs and Mandela would have died in prison. Embarrassing.

No it doesnt amount to that, the guns issue is confronted over and over again and goes nowhere and there appears to be no clear route to dealing with it sanely. There are multiple reasons for violence in American society, the most weighting in my opinion would be wealth disparity, individualism and lack of community, all of which I would rate ahead of gun availability, but none of those have even been floated as a root cause in the mainstream debate.

BTW if you keep it on topic you'll probably be less embarrassed and feel less pathetic
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 31, 2015, 07:12:16 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 29, 2015, 08:36:57 PM
Quote from: trileacman on August 29, 2015, 07:06:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 29, 2015, 02:13:54 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 29, 2015, 01:42:24 PM
I fair say i know alot more about the cold war than you, Americas paranoid on communism is well documented. maybe if you didn't put Nuclear weapons sites in turkey leading to the Cuban missile crisis the cold war mightn't have kicked off. Am surprised you know, since most Americans seem stuck back in 1791, in a way alot like Northen Ireland half them are still stuck back with King Billy in 1690

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes


I'm sure the 80-100 M people who died under communist dictatorships would respectfully disagree with you
And the millions slaughtered under by U.S. Forces and capitalist banana republics would disagree with you ya f**king idiot.


LOL-Stalin, Mao , Pol Pot. US doesn't hold a candle to them. Someone must have stolen the history books out of your bag my friend.

FFS it took 3 yanks to stop the gunman on the train last week while the French train guards hid in their booth

My Cold War history is a little sketchy Whitey.. Remind me... Was America intervening in countries to stop genocide taking place? Because I dont think they bothered with any of those ones you mentioned above, in fact the last one you mentioned, I believe they created the conditions for it.

Your also forgetting the French guy who decided to remain anonymous on that train in France
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: winghalfun on August 31, 2015, 12:25:53 PM
"Not till your 12 son" and this was back in 1971

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlA2hACf6G0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlA2hACf6G0)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on August 31, 2015, 01:35:42 PM
All the arguments need to be viewed in the context of the US historical record in military "intervention" -Here's a list of them http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html (http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html)

As George Carlin said - We like war, we are war like people. We like war, because we are good at it. You know why we are good at it? Because we did a lot of practice. This country is only 200 years old and already we have had 10 major wars. We average a major war every 20 years in this country, so we are good at it! And that is good thing we are, we are not very good in anything else anymore. Can't built a decent car, can't make a TV set or VCR where the f**k. Got no steel industry left, can't educate our young people can't get health care for our old people, but we can bomb the shit out of your country alright?!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 31, 2015, 02:05:16 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 31, 2015, 07:12:16 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 29, 2015, 08:36:57 PM
Quote from: trileacman on August 29, 2015, 07:06:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 29, 2015, 02:13:54 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 29, 2015, 01:42:24 PM
I fair say i know alot more about the cold war than you, Americas paranoid on communism is well documented. maybe if you didn't put Nuclear weapons sites in turkey leading to the Cuban missile crisis the cold war mightn't have kicked off. Am surprised you know, since most Americans seem stuck back in 1791, in a way alot like Northen Ireland half them are still stuck back with King Billy in 1690

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes


I'm sure the 80-100 M people who died under communist dictatorships would respectfully disagree with you
And the millions slaughtered under by U.S. Forces and capitalist banana republics would disagree with you ya f**king idiot.


LOL-Stalin, Mao , Pol Pot. US doesn't hold a candle to them. Someone must have stolen the history books out of your bag my friend.

FFS it took 3 yanks to stop the gunman on the train last week while the French train guards hid in their booth

My Cold War history is a little sketchy Whitey.. Remind me... Was America intervening in countries to stop genocide taking place? Because I dont think they bothered with any of those ones you mentioned above, in fact the last one you mentioned, I believe they created the conditions for it.

Your also forgetting the French guy who decided to remain anonymous on that train in France

Cold War was about limitimg spread of Communism and diminishing the influence of China and Soviet Union in SE Asia (among a humber of places)....thats where the roots of the Korean and Vietnamese war lie.  And if you think America was paranoid about the evil of Communism, do you think the 75-100 M killed the,selves
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 31, 2015, 03:58:45 PM
So it was to prevent the spread of Communism/Socialism/left wing governments, nothing to do with preventing genocides, dictatorships or supporting democracy then.

Glad we could clear that up.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on September 01, 2015, 02:37:20 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 30, 2015, 07:36:15 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 30, 2015, 04:21:36 AM
Listen lads if you think its your business, or if your opinion (which you are completely entitled to BTW) makes any odds to Americans' opinions, or the laws their government creates, your sadly mistaken.

Whats more, if your opinion had any weight it would likely be viewed negatively and get people's back up even more.

The gun culture in America is nuts of course, but remember your looking at it from your own perspective.

I'll harp back again to the thing of individualism, its a lot stronger in America than it is in Ireland where people tend to look at their community and country as more of a collective. So in America, if you tell one guy with guns that is doing no harm to anyone, that you are gonna take his guns away because someone else done something bad, he will not understand it. He really literally wouldn't understand or get that it is for the greater good. Whereas in Ireland I think that there is be more of an acceptance of "takin one for the team" or whatever.

That of course only deals with individuals opinions tho, which despite the facade of democracy is actually irrelevant to the laws. The real reason there is no gun control in America is because the lobby groups have so many politicians in their pockets.

Anyway since getting rid of the guns unfortunately appears to be off the table, debating it to death is futile and only causes more division. A more productive approach might be to float some alternative solutions to America's societal problems.

If you think that any of us are under any impression that our opinions make any odds to the laws of the United States, then you are sadly mistaken. You appear to be under the impression that 99.9% of Americans support the Saturdays quo on guns and again, despite living there, you are sadly mistaken.

Your point about the futility on the debate of the issues is pathetic and amounts to "it's a difficult issue to confront, so let's not even bother". If more people thought like that blacks would still be picking cotton under slavery, women wouldn't be allowed vote, Catholics couldn't get jobs and Mandela would have died in prison. Embarrassing.

What is embarrassing is your use of the term blacks!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on September 01, 2015, 11:46:18 AM
Black is offensive? I thought it was just a colour! Is White Offensive?

I'd have thought coloured was way more offensive.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on September 03, 2015, 12:03:22 AM
I like the NRA.

I think everyone should carry a loaded gun, everywhere, at all times.

It would make both matches in Croker next weekend waaayyyyy more interesting. Also road rage, air rage and closing time would be much more entertaining. And imagine the Ulster Championship!

Cool......
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: deiseach on September 03, 2015, 09:10:57 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 01, 2015, 11:46:18 AM
Black is offensive? I thought it was just a colour! Is White Offensive?

I'd have thought coloured was way more offensive.

I recall an episode of Scrubs - not an authority on these things, but the anecdote is as good as any - where a Boston Brahmin-type character used the term 'African-American' and was gently told that 'black' was the accepted term these days.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: smort on September 14, 2015, 06:18:33 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/14/delta-state-university-active-shooter-on-campus/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on September 14, 2015, 07:01:37 PM
Everyone should have more guns, especially these people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPJVF-w0We8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPJVF-w0We8)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on September 14, 2015, 08:45:15 PM
Muppet, your last two posts on this thread have been completely disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on September 14, 2015, 09:35:37 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on September 14, 2015, 08:45:15 PM
Muppet, your last two posts on this thread have been completely disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Seriously?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on September 14, 2015, 09:49:58 PM
Quote from: J70 on September 14, 2015, 09:35:37 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on September 14, 2015, 08:45:15 PM
Muppet, your last two posts on this thread have been completely disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Seriously?



Well, I was hopin for Muppet...but you'll do nicely J70

(Winding reel furisously)......GOTCHA! :D

Im about as serious as Muppet was! ;)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: mikehunt on September 14, 2015, 09:55:48 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on September 14, 2015, 08:45:15 PM
Muppet, your last two posts on this thread have been completely disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself.

How dare you. The authority on all things moral and intellectual shall smite thee down with great anger and furious vengeance
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on September 15, 2015, 01:05:22 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on September 14, 2015, 08:45:15 PM
Muppet, your last two posts on this thread have been completely disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Pistols at dawn.

You choose the venue.

I choose the calibre.  ;D
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2015, 01:50:51 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on September 14, 2015, 09:49:58 PM
Quote from: J70 on September 14, 2015, 09:35:37 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on September 14, 2015, 08:45:15 PM
Muppet, your last two posts on this thread have been completely disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Seriously?



Well, I was hopin for Muppet...but you'll do nicely J70

(Winding reel furisously)......GOTCHA! :D

Im about as serious as Muppet was! ;)

I thought so, but just checking anyway!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on October 01, 2015, 09:10:16 PM

I suppose this is back in the limelight now after the Oregon shooting this morning.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 01, 2015, 09:41:00 PM
Quote from: moysider on October 01, 2015, 09:10:16 PM

I suppose this is back in the limelight now after the Oregon shooting this morning.

For a few hours anyway...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on October 01, 2015, 09:47:09 PM
Again another massace, what is wrong with Americans anyway, Cant they see the easy access to guns makes the likelihood of numerous deaths to some nutjob very likely.

Why do we never see this things on a regular basis in the UK, i say we got our fair number of nutters too but  their access to an arsenal to cause harm is restricted over here. Michael Ryan at Hungerford and Dunblane are the 2 most serious incidents i recall but this is a 6 monthly event in the good ole USA
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on October 01, 2015, 10:24:47 PM
Quotethis is a 6 monthly event in the good ole USA

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/10/01/2015-274-days-294-mass-shootings-hundreds-dead/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/10/01/2015-274-days-294-mass-shootings-hundreds-dead/)
2015: 274 days, 294 mass shootings, 45th school shooting this year.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 01, 2015, 10:42:39 PM
13 reported dead so far - fI can't wrap my head around why anyone would do it - just snuff out innocent lives like that  - there is no reason
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on October 02, 2015, 12:00:52 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 01, 2015, 10:42:39 PM
13 reported dead so far - fI can't wrap my head around why anyone would do it - just snuff out innocent lives like that  - there is no reason

There is always a reason. Somebody does not do this for no reason. There is always a motive for these events, and the crazy thing is there is usually concerns about the perpetrators before these tragedies happen.

Of course the relatively easy access to deadly weapons is an issue. These events now are endemic in American culture unfortunately and it seems to be a way that damaged individuals choose to make a statement/mark. Usually their final statement.

On reflection I accept that guns being so freely available has helped drive what has become a 'fashion'. That's what it is. Somebody gets pissed off and go do what the Columbine kids did.

We can t afford to be complacent here either. Last year an armed intruder was tasered in a school but it was kept quiet. We re about the only country in the western world that has not had a major school incident. We re on borrowed time.  Most schools are insecure and anybody can walk/drive in and roam around unchallenged. It could be only a matter of time before something bad happens.

 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 02, 2015, 01:27:52 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on September 14, 2015, 08:45:15 PM
Muppet, your last two posts on this thread have been completely disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Wise up mate, he is not serious!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 02, 2015, 01:30:05 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 01, 2015, 10:42:39 PM
13 reported dead so far - fI can't wrap my head around why anyone would do it - just snuff out innocent lives like that  - there is no reason

There is, every single shooter was a fox network watchin, gun totin, redneck, trump supportin far right nutjob, just ask 99% of the liberals on here!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 02, 2015, 01:37:31 AM
Quote from: stew on October 02, 2015, 01:30:05 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 01, 2015, 10:42:39 PM
13 reported dead so far - fI can't wrap my head around why anyone would do it - just snuff out innocent lives like that  - there is no reason

There is, every single shooter was a fox network watchin, gun totin, redneck, trump supportin far right nutjob, just ask 99% of the liberals on here!

Don't think I've ever read anything close to that here.

The issue with the Fox News/NRA crowd is their complete and utter unwillingness to cede even a inch towards doing something about free, unchecked, access to guns by anyone and everyone.

The only chance of any action being taken would be if this shooter turned out to be a muslim.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on October 02, 2015, 03:35:20 AM
His name was Chris Harper Mercer - and for some reason seemed to have a thing for the IRA

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/01/umpqua-gunman-id-d-as-chris-harper-mercer.mobile.html
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 02, 2015, 06:41:36 AM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on October 02, 2015, 03:35:20 AM
His name was Chris Harper Mercer - and for some reason seemed to have a thing for the IRA

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/01/umpqua-gunman-id-d-as-chris-harper-mercer.mobile.html

:o WTF!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 12:32:37 PM
This is how the police treated those who survived the shooting:

(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/2C5C/production/_85865311_88c8b19f-35b6-4475-83c4-68bd5ab2c3b5.jpg)
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/8634/production/_85865343_c2b596e4-f1c8-4da1-880b-99ae346ac856.jpg)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: LeoMc on October 02, 2015, 01:23:17 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 02, 2015, 12:32:37 PM
This is how the police treated those who survived the shooting:

(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/2C5C/production/_85865311_88c8b19f-35b6-4475-83c4-68bd5ab2c3b5.jpg)
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/8634/production/_85865343_c2b596e4-f1c8-4da1-880b-99ae346ac856.jpg)

Are you criticising how they handled this?
In the immediate aftermath they cannot be sure if it was a lone gunman or if he had an accomplice. If it later emerged that they had let the primary shooter out without securing the area they would be criticised.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 02, 2015, 01:30:12 PM
I've been through active shooter drills and that is exactly how you are supposed to respond - walking out with hands up. In that situation the cops have no idea who is a threat and who isn't.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 01:30:29 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 02, 2015, 01:23:17 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 02, 2015, 12:32:37 PM
This is how the police treated those who survived the shooting:

(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/2C5C/production/_85865311_88c8b19f-35b6-4475-83c4-68bd5ab2c3b5.jpg)
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/8634/production/_85865343_c2b596e4-f1c8-4da1-880b-99ae346ac856.jpg)

Are you criticising how they handled this?
In the immediate aftermath they cannot be sure if it was a lone gunman or if he had an accomplice. If it later emerged that they had let the primary shooter out without securing the area they would be criticised.

"We arrived to find multiple patients in multiple classrooms. Law enforcement was on scene and had the shooter neutralized," said Douglas County Fire Marshal Ray Shoufler.

They don't line people up in the car park, where a shooter could pick them off, while the shooting is still going on. The shooting was long over when the photos were taken. Also, if the argument for legalising guns, is that everyone should have a gun to save them from bad men, what exactly are the police searching for?

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 01:34:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 02, 2015, 01:30:12 PM
I've been through active shooter drills and that is exactly how you are supposed to respond - walking out with hands up. In that situation the cops have no idea who is a threat and who isn't.

Guilty until proven innocent?

Also, are they not risking lining up civilian targets for a shooter?

Look at the body language of the cops in the first photo. Do they look like they believe they are in immediate danger from one of those in front of them?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Last Man on October 02, 2015, 02:28:42 PM
America is just bonkers, this is just the cops being seen to be mitigating against the risk of another shooter or accomplice, "don't worry people we have the situation under control, panic over". All for show. It astounds me as a sizeable and influential chunk of the population how the American police force are not kicking up merry hell in favour of gun control. Just listened to a local girl interviewed who was looking forward to her 21st birthday and her concealed firearm permit suggesting this wouldnt have happened if more people were carrying :o. Compulsory quick draw training in elementary school is probably the next move. What must life be like for Liberals living there, cheek by jowel with so many mad bastiches who would advocate that this is worth it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 02, 2015, 02:45:14 PM
Muppet, you're mad to have a go at the cops. In this scenario, that's just standard practice. They have to make sure they see hands so there's no other shooters. No one is cuffed, or arrested, it's just standard safety practice at a shooting scene where you don't know if there was an accomplice or not.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on October 02, 2015, 02:51:39 PM
Of all the dumb shit that happens in America, and all the dumb shit that cops have done recently - there is no argument to be made criticizing the actions of the police in these pictures. I can imagine the faux incredulity that would be spewing forth if the cops just let everyone paddle on out and then a second shooter made mincemeat of a large bolus of people on a bus or parking lot. Unfortunately NOTHING seems to be outside the realm of possibility when it comes to gun violence and mass shootings in this f**king country, so what the f**k would make anyone complain about a little diligence - granted, diligence in the absence of any sort of f**king gun control at all.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 02, 2015, 02:59:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 02, 2015, 01:34:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 02, 2015, 01:30:12 PM
I've been through active shooter drills and that is exactly how you are supposed to respond - walking out with hands up. In that situation the cops have no idea who is a threat and who isn't.

Guilty until proven innocent?

Also, are they not risking lining up civilian targets for a shooter?

Look at the body language of the cops in the first photo. Do they look like they believe they are in immediate danger from one of those in front of them?

Who is talking about guilt? It's about getting people out safely and making sure no one is carrying a weapon or has a chance to draw one. Just what would you have them do?

As for lining them up,  it depends on where they are doing the search, doesn't it? These mass murderers generally don't attack crowds filled with armed cops. They may already have killed him by then. But again,  what would you have them do.

This is about saving lives, not worrying about hurt feelings.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 03:17:46 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 02, 2015, 02:59:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 02, 2015, 01:34:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 02, 2015, 01:30:12 PM
I've been through active shooter drills and that is exactly how you are supposed to respond - walking out with hands up. In that situation the cops have no idea who is a threat and who isn't.

Guilty until proven innocent?

Also, are they not risking lining up civilian targets for a shooter?

Look at the body language of the cops in the first photo. Do they look like they believe they are in immediate danger from one of those in front of them?

Who is talking about guilt? It's about getting people out safely and making sure no one is carrying a weapon or has a chance to draw one. Just what would you have them do?

As for lining them up,  it depends on where they are doing the search, doesn't it? These mass murderers generally don't attack crowds filled with armed cops. They may already have killed him by then. But again,  what would you have them do.

This is about saving lives, not worrying about hurt feelings.

FFS! Isn't the whole problem that people are ALLOWED to carry guns. Why make sure no one is carrying a gun, AFTER a shooting?

As for what would I have them do? Either there is a threat or not. Get them as far away as possible, as quickly as possible, and thus to safety. If they believed there is a shooter, then they simply lined everyone up as cannon fodder. As Last Man said it is just for show.

AZ I am not 'mad to have a go at the cops'. My issue is with gun control and the complete lunacy of it. Everyone is allowed guns, until someone fires one, in which case every ordinary citizen is lined up, with their hands on their heads, until they prove they are not the (already dead) shooter. How do they prove this? By not having a gun? Think about this please instead of throwing 'you are mad to have a go..' at me.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 02, 2015, 03:47:04 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 02, 2015, 03:17:46 PM

FFS! Isn't the whole problem that people are ALLOWED to carry guns. Why make sure no one is carrying a gun, AFTER a shooting?

Obviously to make sure the threat is gone or contained inside the building, no? And those who are carrying a piece will obviously have to tell the cop and produce their permit. One would assume that further investigation or interviews would be necessary to rule out any participation.

Quote from: muppet on October 02, 2015, 03:17:46 PM

As for what would I have them do? Either there is a threat or not. Get them as far away as possible, as quickly as possible, and thus to safety. If they believed there is a shooter, then they simply lined everyone up as cannon fodder. As Last Man said it is just for show.

You don't understand that in a real time situation that they might not know if there is still a threat? These mass shooters don't always work alone.

And how do you know that they were not safe in whatever location these checks were taking place? Where is "safe" in your opinion? Where might they not be at risk to be cannon fodder? Are you just going have them run randomly in all directions just in case there is a sniper up in a tree somewhere? How would you control the situation to ensure that the gunman or gunmen did not escape to kill some more?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 02, 2015, 03:51:55 PM
Muppet, in principle I agree with you, but you have a problem with the cops in the States, and are using a photo to have a go at them when they have done nothing wrong in this situation.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 04:07:41 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2015, 03:51:55 PM
Muppet, in principle I agree with you, but you have a problem with the cops in the States, and are using a photo to have a go at them when they have done nothing wrong in this situation.

I am old enough to remember the Dublin & Monaghan bombings. I happened to be in Dublin city centre once as a child when there was a bomb scare on O'Connell Street.

When there was a 'threat' the cops would evacuate the area. This was the appropriate and sensible course of action. Even though they knew there was a very real chance that there were terrorists in the crowd, they didn't line everyone up with their hands over their heads and start searching them.

Why?

In my view it was because the priority was genuinely the safety of ordinary citizens.

In the pictures above, it is my view that the priority is the media.

And that is not blaming the cops. They are simply following orders. The problem is much higher up than those in the photos.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 02, 2015, 04:29:33 PM
I think you are reading too much into it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 04:49:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2015, 04:29:33 PM
I think you are reading too much into it.

Fair enough.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 02, 2015, 04:57:51 PM
Still in shock about it all this morning. I was down through the area a few months back on a family road trip. I've thought a lot about the conviction of those who were shot and if I would be so bold and brave when asked if I was Christian knowing that a yes would mean execution. I pray for their strength.

Something needs to be done in this country. I think we're passed the point of no return though. There are just too many guns out there and too much access to them. Would a ban or an amnesty even make a difference?

We won't stay too many more years at this rate.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Boycey on October 02, 2015, 04:59:30 PM
Anyone catch Cal Thomas and Matt Cooper sparring about the latest incident on Today FM there??

Cal was going down the line of "if the security guard had a gun none of this would have happened", got fairly hot and heavy.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on October 02, 2015, 05:03:02 PM
Quote from: Boycey on October 02, 2015, 04:59:30 PM
Anyone catch Cal Thomas and Matt Cooper sparring about the latest incident on Today FM there??

Cal was going down the line of "if the security guard had a gun none of this would have happened", got fairly hot and heavy.

Thomas is a complete p***k. . . he's the quintessential Republican!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 05:59:13 PM
Quote from: Boycey on October 02, 2015, 04:59:30 PM
Anyone catch Cal Thomas and Matt Cooper sparring about the latest incident on Today FM there??

Cal was going down the line of "if the security guard had a gun none of this would have happened", got fairly hot and heavy.

These people are almost as dangerous to society as the shooters.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 02, 2015, 06:13:32 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 02, 2015, 04:57:51 PM
Still in shock about it all this morning. I was down through the area a few months back on a family road trip. I've thought a lot about the conviction of those who were shot and if I would be so bold and brave when asked if I was Christian knowing that a yes would mean execution. I pray for their strength.

Something needs to be done in this country. I think we're passed the point of no return though. There are just too many guns out there and too much access to them. Would a ban or an amnesty even make a difference?

We won't stay too many more years at this rate.

Why the hell would anyone answer in the affirmative that they were Christian after seeing this psychopath mow down others?

Conviction me arse. Do what you have to to live and get back to your family and f**k that deranged judge and executioner.  Any concept of god that would supposedly hold that against someone is fucked up.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Boycey on October 02, 2015, 06:19:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 02, 2015, 05:59:13 PM
Quote from: Boycey on October 02, 2015, 04:59:30 PM
Anyone catch Cal Thomas and Matt Cooper sparring about the latest incident on Today FM there??

Cal was going down the line of "if the security guard had a gun none of this would have happened", got fairly hot and heavy.

These people are almost as dangerous to society as the shooters.

Agreed.

It's worth a listen, Matt really tore into him. It'll be on Today FM website on the listen back function, it took place in 4.30-5.00 segment..
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 02, 2015, 06:23:35 PM
Quote from: Last Man on October 02, 2015, 02:28:42 PM
America is just bonkers, this is just the cops being seen to be mitigating against the risk of another shooter or accomplice, "don't worry people we have the situation under control, panic over". All for show. It astounds me as a sizeable and influential chunk of the population how the American police force are not kicking up merry hell in favour of gun control. Just listened to a local girl interviewed who was looking forward to her 21st birthday and her concealed firearm permit suggesting this wouldnt have happened if more people were carrying :o. Compulsory quick draw training in elementary school is probably the next move. What must life be like for Liberals living there, cheek by jowel with so many mad bastiches who would advocate that this is worth it.


f**k me, that is an ignorant rant, I know a ton of liberals who own weapons, I have a mate that is a top surgeon in Green Bay and we fight all the time about gun control, he is a screaming looney leftie but he owns over forty guns/rifles, love to hunt, trap shoot and let the bullets fly in indoor ranges.

You liberals are brave and fond of blaming conservatives for anything bad that happens, the fact is that gun owners of liberal leanings in the USA number in the tens of millions, probably not as many as conservatives but they are out there and to me they should be taken from the citizenry, the problem lies in the constitution and the peoples right to bear arms and the toothless leaders like Obama who do feck all when they have  the House/ White house/Congress.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: stew on October 02, 2015, 06:23:35 PM
Quote from: Last Man on October 02, 2015, 02:28:42 PM
America is just bonkers, this is just the cops being seen to be mitigating against the risk of another shooter or accomplice, "don't worry people we have the situation under control, panic over". All for show. It astounds me as a sizeable and influential chunk of the population how the American police force are not kicking up merry hell in favour of gun control. Just listened to a local girl interviewed who was looking forward to her 21st birthday and her concealed firearm permit suggesting this wouldnt have happened if more people were carrying :o. Compulsory quick draw training in elementary school is probably the next move. What must life be like for Liberals living there, cheek by jowel with so many mad bastiches who would advocate that this is worth it.


f**k me, that is an ignorant rant, I know a ton of liberals who own weapons, I have a mate that is a top surgeon in Green Bay and we fight all the time about gun control, he is a screaming looney leftie but he owns over forty guns/rifles, love to hunt, trap shoot and let the bullets fly in indoor ranges.

You liberals are brave and fond of blaming conservatives for anything bad that happens, the fact is that gun owners of liberal leanings in the USA number in the tens of millions, probably not as many as conservatives but they are out there and to me they should be taken from the citizenry, the problem lies in the constitution and the peoples right to bear arms and the toothless leaders like Obama who do feck all when they have  the House/ White house/Congress.

But what if the armed liberals, are merely forming their own militia, as is guaranteed under the constitution, to protect them from the other armed militia, who swear to protect the constitution from the liberals?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 02, 2015, 06:47:06 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 02, 2015, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: stew on October 02, 2015, 06:23:35 PM
Quote from: Last Man on October 02, 2015, 02:28:42 PM
America is just bonkers, this is just the cops being seen to be mitigating against the risk of another shooter or accomplice, "don't worry people we have the situation under control, panic over". All for show. It astounds me as a sizeable and influential chunk of the population how the American police force are not kicking up merry hell in favour of gun control. Just listened to a local girl interviewed who was looking forward to her 21st birthday and her concealed firearm permit suggesting this wouldnt have happened if more people were carrying :o. Compulsory quick draw training in elementary school is probably the next move. What must life be like for Liberals living there, cheek by jowel with so many mad bastiches who would advocate that this is worth it.


f**k me, that is an ignorant rant, I know a ton of liberals who own weapons, I have a mate that is a top surgeon in Green Bay and we fight all the time about gun control, he is a screaming looney leftie but he owns over forty guns/rifles, love to hunt, trap shoot and let the bullets fly in indoor ranges.

You liberals are brave and fond of blaming conservatives for anything bad that happens, the fact is that gun owners of liberal leanings in the USA number in the tens of millions, probably not as many as conservatives but they are out there and to me they should be taken from the citizenry, the problem lies in the constitution and the peoples right to bear arms and the toothless leaders like Obama who do feck all when they have  the House/ White house/Congress.

But what if the armed liberals, are merely forming their own militia, as is guaranteed under the constitution, to protect them from the other armed militia, who swear to protect the constitution from the liberals?

Arent the "liberals" the ones who want guns?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 06:47:58 PM
http://www.vox.com/2015/10/1/9437187/obama-guns-terrorism-deaths (http://www.vox.com/2015/10/1/9437187/obama-guns-terrorism-deaths)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 02, 2015, 08:20:47 PM
Anyone hear that looney bin Cal Thomas on The Last Word this evening? The mind boggles
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 02, 2015, 10:24:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 02, 2015, 06:13:32 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 02, 2015, 04:57:51 PM
Still in shock about it all this morning. I was down through the area a few months back on a family road trip. I've thought a lot about the conviction of those who were shot and if I would be so bold and brave when asked if I was Christian knowing that a yes would mean execution. I pray for their strength.

Something needs to be done in this country. I think we're passed the point of no return though. There are just too many guns out there and too much access to them. Would a ban or an amnesty even make a difference?

We won't stay too many more years at this rate.

Why the hell would anyone answer in the affirmative that they were Christian after seeing this psychopath mow down others?

Conviction me arse. Do what you have to to live and get back to your family and f**k that deranged judge and executioner.  Any concept of god that would supposedly hold that against someone is fucked up.
You're hard on me now J70. Is thee anything you would go to war for? Any cause bigger than yourself or your own life?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: LeoMc on October 02, 2015, 10:28:16 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 02, 2015, 01:30:29 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 02, 2015, 01:23:17 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 02, 2015, 12:32:37 PM
This is how the police treated those who survived the shooting:

(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/2C5C/production/_85865311_88c8b19f-35b6-4475-83c4-68bd5ab2c3b5.jpg)
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/8634/production/_85865343_c2b596e4-f1c8-4da1-880b-99ae346ac856.jpg)

Are you criticising how they handled this?
In the immediate aftermath they cannot be sure if it was a lone gunman or if he had an accomplice. If it later emerged that they had let the primary shooter out without securing the area they would be criticised.

"We arrived to find multiple patients in multiple classrooms. Law enforcement was on scene and had the shooter neutralized," said Douglas County Fire Marshal Ray Shoufler.

They don't line people up in the car park, where a shooter could pick them off, while the shooting is still going on. The shooting was long over when the photos were taken. Also, if the argument for legalising guns, is that everyone should have a gun to save them from bad men, what exactly are the police searching for?
I was not talking of a shooter lined up with a rifle, they are likely to be spotted. I was thinking more of a Dylan Klebold who decided suicide was not the way out and was trying to blend in and escape.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 11:02:56 PM
I understand your point Leo, but if someone in the middle of one of those lines had a serious weapon on them, I dare say they would be more likely to try to use it than wait for the cops to find it. Those cops aren't even looking, so he would have a little time to pull it out.

Thus I suggest they are putting people at risk by their actions.

In addition, those poeple are very likely to be very highly stressed and a lethal misunderstanding could happen in an instant. Imagine someone with a low IQ doing something unwise in one of those lines?

IMHO the priority should be to safegaurd the innocent, not to find the guilty.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 02, 2015, 11:25:52 PM
Policing seems to be yet another subject area you are an expert in knowing feck all about Muppet
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 02, 2015, 11:32:10 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 02, 2015, 11:02:56 PM
I understand your point Leo, but if someone in the middle of one of those lines had a serious weapon on them, I dare say they would be more likely to try to use it than wait for the cops to find it. Those cops aren't even looking, so he would have a little time to pull it out.

Thus I suggest they are putting people at risk by their actions.

In addition, those poeple are very likely to be very highly stressed and a lethal misunderstanding could happen in an instant. Imagine someone with a low IQ doing something unwise in one of those lines?

IMHO the priority should be to safegaurd the innocent, not to find the guilty.

Muppet, this is the way they have to handle things in cases like this, if you didnt they would have the shooters walking out with the escaping students, you cannot blame the peelers in any way on this!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 03, 2015, 12:25:57 AM
Quote from: stew on October 02, 2015, 11:32:10 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 02, 2015, 11:02:56 PM
I understand your point Leo, but if someone in the middle of one of those lines had a serious weapon on them, I dare say they would be more likely to try to use it than wait for the cops to find it. Those cops aren't even looking, so he would have a little time to pull it out.

Thus I suggest they are putting people at risk by their actions.

In addition, those poeple are very likely to be very highly stressed and a lethal misunderstanding could happen in an instant. Imagine someone with a low IQ doing something unwise in one of those lines?

IMHO the priority should be to safegaurd the innocent, not to find the guilty.

Muppet, this is the way they have to handle things in cases like this, if you didnt they would have the shooters walking out with the escaping students, you cannot blame the peelers in any way on this!

I am not blaming the peelers. They are just following orders. It is the logic behind the orders I have the problem with.

You said 'if you didnt they would have the shooters walking out with the escaping students'. I can understand this, but this is an argument to catch any potential accomplice, as the priority, even if it risks more deaths. That is what I have the problem with. Let them all escape safely and then track the scumbags down like they almost always do, e.g. Boston.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 03, 2015, 12:32:15 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 02, 2015, 11:25:52 PM
Policing seems to be yet another subject area you are an expert in knowing feck all about Muppet

You're a veritable bastion of knowledge yourself. We all eagerly await your response to easytiger on the other thread.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 03, 2015, 12:48:50 AM
Quote from: hardstation on October 03, 2015, 12:35:26 AM
I don't follow your logic at all, muppet.

Surely it's better to have any suspect confined to the small space rather than letting them have a run up the local neighbourhood?

1) But there wasn't a suspect.

2) If there was, they were forcing his hand possibly leading to more loss of life.

3) Any terrified innocent person could have made a mistake that would lead a cop panicking and to one of those other tragedies we so often talk about on here.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 03, 2015, 01:48:33 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 12:48:50 AM
Quote from: hardstation on October 03, 2015, 12:35:26 AM
I don't follow your logic at all, muppet.

Surely it's better to have any suspect confined to the small space rather than letting them have a run up the local neighbourhood?

1) But there wasn't a suspect.

2) If there was, they were forcing his hand possibly leading to more loss of life.

3) Any terrified innocent person could have made a mistake that would lead a cop panicking and to one of those other tragedies we so often talk about on here.

1. I'd assume they didn't know how many shooters there were at the time. They only knew they'd killed one.

2. As opposed to the loss of life if they'd let him go free to repeat his deeds?

3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 03, 2015, 08:05:05 AM
Quote from: gallsman on October 03, 2015, 12:32:15 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 02, 2015, 11:25:52 PM
Policing seems to be yet another subject area you are an expert in knowing feck all about Muppet

You're a veritable bastion of knowledge yourself. We all eagerly await your response to easytiger on the other thread.
;D ;D
I'll let this one back out to swim, doesnt seem right
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 03, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 03, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 03, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 03, 2015, 09:53:49 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 03, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

Apples and oranges, several things wrong with your analogy, no bombs were involved, second of all, The USA has a different way of handling cases than the Irish do and thirdly, you are only seeing a snapshot on the pictures, do you really think there were no sharpshooters covering the polices backs? That is not the way they do things here.

You are stretching and trying to be offended it seems! The cops were just doing their jobs the way they have been trained to do their jobs, end of.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 03, 2015, 09:57:49 PM
Quote from: stew on October 03, 2015, 09:53:49 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 03, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

Apples and oranges, several things wrong with your analogy, no bombs were involved, second of all, The USA has a different way of handling cases than the Irish do and thirdly, you are only seeing a snapshot on the pictures, do you really think there were no sharpshooters covering the polices backs? That is not the way they do things here.

You are stretching and trying to be offended it seems! The cops were just doing their jobs the way they have been trained to do their jobs, end of.

Em..........

Never mind.

Bomb different to guns?

Same result, but never mind that either.

Treating the survivors like criminals?

Never mind that either.

Although in fairness I accept your point on the snapshot.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 03, 2015, 10:15:56 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 09:57:49 PM
Quote from: stew on October 03, 2015, 09:53:49 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 03, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

Apples and oranges, several things wrong with your analogy, no bombs were involved, second of all, The USA has a different way of handling cases than the Irish do and thirdly, you are only seeing a snapshot on the pictures, do you really think there were no sharpshooters covering the polices backs? That is not the way they do things here.

You are stretching and trying to be offended it seems! The cops were just doing their jobs the way they have been trained to do their jobs, end of.

Em..........

Never mind.

Bomb different to guns?

Same result, but never mind that either.

Treating the survivors like criminals?

Never mind that either.

Although in fairness I accept your point on the snapshot.

FFS catch yourself on, if you dont think there is a difference between a bomb and a gun you need your head examined muppet!

THEY WERE DOING AS THEY WERE TRAINED TO DO Hardly their fault now is it?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 03, 2015, 10:19:07 PM
Quote from: stew on October 03, 2015, 10:15:56 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 09:57:49 PM
Quote from: stew on October 03, 2015, 09:53:49 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 03, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

Apples and oranges, several things wrong with your analogy, no bombs were involved, second of all, The USA has a different way of handling cases than the Irish do and thirdly, you are only seeing a snapshot on the pictures, do you really think there were no sharpshooters covering the polices backs? That is not the way they do things here.

You are stretching and trying to be offended it seems! The cops were just doing their jobs the way they have been trained to do their jobs, end of.

Em..........

Never mind.

Bomb different to guns?

Same result, but never mind that either.

Treating the survivors like criminals?

Never mind that either.

Although in fairness I accept your point on the snapshot.

FFS catch yourself on, if you dont think there is a difference between a bomb and a gun you need your head examined muppet!

THEY WERE DOING AS THEY WERE TRAINED TO DO Hardly their fault now is it?

FFS! I have said numerous times on this thread that I don't blame them.

My problem is with their superiors. How many times do I have to post that.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 03, 2015, 10:26:13 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 10:19:07 PM
Quote from: stew on October 03, 2015, 10:15:56 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 09:57:49 PM
Quote from: stew on October 03, 2015, 09:53:49 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 03, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

Apples and oranges, several things wrong with your analogy, no bombs were involved, second of all, The USA has a different way of handling cases than the Irish do and thirdly, you are only seeing a snapshot on the pictures, do you really think there were no sharpshooters covering the polices backs? That is not the way they do things here.

You are stretching and trying to be offended it seems! The cops were just doing their jobs the way they have been trained to do their jobs, end of.

Em..........

Never mind.

Bomb different to guns?

Same result, but never mind that either.

Treating the survivors like criminals?

Never mind that either.

Although in fairness I accept your point on the snapshot.

FFS catch yourself on, if you dont think there is a difference between a bomb and a gun you need your head examined muppet!

THEY WERE DOING AS THEY WERE TRAINED TO DO Hardly their fault now is it?

FFS! I have said numerous times on this thread that I don't blame them.

My problem is with their superiors. How many times do I have to post that.


"Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire".

See that reads to me like you are blaming the cops on the ground and are inferring that they have no reason to do what they were doing, I simply see cops doing what they do because they were trained to do it that way.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 04, 2015, 07:30:57 AM
(https://img.njdc.com/media/media/2015/09/01/wholechart.png)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 04, 2015, 02:38:20 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 04, 2015, 07:30:57 AM
(https://img.njdc.com/media/media/2015/09/01/wholechart.png)

That chart is frightening.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 05, 2015, 08:48:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 03, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

You can't pretend to know any of that from the photo you posted. A bombing incident (like the ones you describe) are a totally different thing and you know it.  After a bombing it is highly unlikely that there is a second bomber running around with a device in their pocket ready to bomb people at random.  Your analogy is way off.

You also ignored my second and third points.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on October 06, 2015, 07:42:38 AM
An 11-year-old boy in the US state of Tennessee has been held on suspicion of shooting dead an eight-year-old neighbour in a row over a puppy.
The boy has been charged with first-degree murder as a juvenile.
According to police, he shot the girl on Saturday evening with his father's shotgun after she refused to let him see her puppy.
The girl has been identified as McKayla Dyer. Her mother Latasha said that the two children went to the same school.
"He was making fun of her, calling her names, just being mean to her. He quit for a while and then all of a sudden yesterday he shot her," Ms Dyer told WATE-TV.
I want her back in my arms," she said.
McKayla Dyer's mother Latasha said that the boy had previously been bullying her daughter
Neighbour Chastity Arwood told WBIR News that she heard the shot ring out and saw McKayla lying on the grass.
"Trying to comfort her mama and her aunt and her grandma and her grandpa and her sister and her brother was the hardest thing I ever had to do," Ms Arwood said.
The boy is scheduled to appear in court again on 28 October.

The Gun Violence Archive, a not-for-profit organisation that compiles data on gun violence in the US, says 559 children aged 11 or under have been killed or injured in the United States in gun violence so far this year.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 06, 2015, 08:48:06 AM
Quote from: Declan on October 06, 2015, 07:42:38 AM

The Gun Violence Archive, a not-for-profit organisation that compiles data on gun violence in the US, says 559 children aged 11 or under have been killed or injured in the United States in gun violence so far this year.


WOW, im blown away by some of the stats im seeing (no pun intended), but that one just tops them all! 559 children under 11 killed or injured by guns THIS YEAR!! that school shooting the other day was the 142nd school shooting since 2012! 3 years!!! and that's JUST schools were talking about! I would say Syria doesn't even have numbers like that!
ANYONE defending the gun laws in America has (A) some neck!!! and (B) blood on their hands!!
stupid f**ks!

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: DrinkingHarp on October 06, 2015, 08:54:44 AM
Even Priest's are getting into the act!!

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25325999/report-new-jersey-priest-allegedly-points-musket-at-8-year-old-cowboys-fan


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 06, 2015, 02:07:59 PM
Quote from: Declan on October 06, 2015, 07:42:38 AM
An 11-year-old boy in the US state of Tennessee has been held on suspicion of shooting dead an eight-year-old neighbour in a row over a puppy.
The boy has been charged with first-degree murder as a juvenile.
According to police, he shot the girl on Saturday evening with his father's shotgun after she refused to let him see her puppy.
The girl has been identified as McKayla Dyer. Her mother Latasha said that the two children went to the same school.
"He was making fun of her, calling her names, just being mean to her. He quit for a while and then all of a sudden yesterday he shot her," Ms Dyer told WATE-TV.
I want her back in my arms," she said.
McKayla Dyer's mother Latasha said that the boy had previously been bullying her daughter
Neighbour Chastity Arwood told WBIR News that she heard the shot ring out and saw McKayla lying on the grass.
"Trying to comfort her mama and her aunt and her grandma and her grandpa and her sister and her brother was the hardest thing I ever had to do," Ms Arwood said.
The boy is scheduled to appear in court again on 28 October.

The Gun Violence Archive, a not-for-profit organisation that compiles data on gun violence in the US, says 559 children aged 11 or under have been killed or injured in the United States in gun violence so far this year.


You see, that child might not be dead if she had been carrying a firearm to protect herself. ::)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 03:17:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 05, 2015, 08:48:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 03, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

You can't pretend to know any of that from the photo you posted.

What?
I can see that their hands are not on their holsters.
I can see that they are not looking at the people they have lined up in front of them.
I can see that if a killer is standing right in from of them, and made a move, that they wouldn't see it immediately.

Quote
A bombing incident (like the ones you describe) are a totally different thing and you know it.

Ah the old 'and you know it' line. Randomly killing innocent people is obviously the common theme. The choice of weapon is hardly a major factor, and you know it!  :D

Quote
After a bombing it is highly unlikely that there is a second bomber running around with a device in their pocket ready to bomb people at random.  Your analogy is way off.

Really? After a shooting, going by most of the other shootings, it would also appear highly unlikely that there is a 2nd shooter etc, etc, as well. Way off my arse. Whether you kill innocent people with a gun or a bomb it hardly matters. In fact with a bombing it is probably more likely that there is more than one person involved, at the very least in the planning of the bomb.

My issue is with the way they treat the survivors. For me there is something hideous about surviving a mass-shooting and then being lined up with your hands over your head, because police bosses need to be seen to be in control.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 06, 2015, 03:45:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 03:17:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 05, 2015, 08:48:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 03, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

You can't pretend to know any of that from the photo you posted.

What?
I can see that their hands are not on their holsters.
I can see that they are not looking at the people they have lined up in front of them.
I can see that if a killer is standing right in from of them, and made a move, that they wouldn't see it immediately.


But you can't see if there are other cops not in shot, monitoring the people coming out.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 03:51:15 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 06, 2015, 03:45:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 03:17:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 05, 2015, 08:48:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 03, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

You can't pretend to know any of that from the photo you posted.

What?
I can see that their hands are not on their holsters.
I can see that they are not looking at the people they have lined up in front of them.
I can see that if a killer is standing right in from of them, and made a move, that they wouldn't see it immediately.


But you can't see if there are other cops not in shot, monitoring the people coming out.

I accept that.

I was responding to the 'you can't pretend to know ANY of that', 'and you know it'.  ;D

(For the avoidance of doubt, that was a joke)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 06, 2015, 03:52:01 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 04, 2015, 07:30:57 AM
(https://img.njdc.com/media/media/2015/09/01/wholechart.png)

I just watched a youtube clip were a boy was telling us that they USA ranks 111th on gun related deaths per 100,000 people per capita, now this is because the USA has the highest gun ownership in the world with 90 people out of a hundred people having one.

Honduras was numero uno, he further stated that if Detroit was taken out of the equation and was it's own country, at 54 per 1000,000 it would rank second out of 218 nations.

I suppose the so called facts could be wrong but I thought the yanks would be top ten/fifteen.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 06, 2015, 03:55:57 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 04:01:29 PM
I suppose the so called facts could be wrong but I thought the yanks would be top ten/fifteen. (//http:///fifteen.)

According to wiki they are 15th.

And the 14 ahead of them are mainly South or Central American counties. Only Swaziland and South Africa of those ahead of them are not from the Americas afaics.

The above is based on homicide data. For gun related suicides the US appears to be 3rd. But there are all sorts of caveats with the wiki data.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on October 06, 2015, 04:04:52 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 06, 2015, 03:55:57 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?

I think it is more accurately described as 90 guns for every 100 people. Can't be arsed pulling up the source, but I read that this morning.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 06, 2015, 04:07:47 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 06, 2015, 03:55:57 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?

It was a fb clip I saw on a mates page. I will check and get back you you.

Oh and Puck was right, 90 out of a hundred people own guns, fecking mind blowing stat ( pardon the pun)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 04:09:00 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on October 06, 2015, 04:04:52 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 06, 2015, 03:55:57 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?

I think it is more accurately described as 90 guns for every 100 people. Can't be arsed pulling up the source, but I read that this morning.

The shooter last week had 'access' to 13 legally held weapons. All were purchased in the last 3 years. Apparently 6 of them were his own and were found on campus: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/oregon-college-shootings-witnesses-recall-horror-as-obama-calls-for-action (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/oregon-college-shootings-witnesses-recall-horror-as-obama-calls-for-action)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on October 06, 2015, 04:11:21 PM
Quote from: stew on October 06, 2015, 04:07:47 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 06, 2015, 03:55:57 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?

It was a fb clip I saw on a mates page. I will check and get back you you.

Oh and Puck was right, 90 out of a hundred people own guns, fecking mind blowing stat ( pardon the pun)

Stew, I think its suggesting that people own multiple guns, to the point where there are 90 guns in the US for every 100 people. Not that 90 out of 100 people own guns. Maybe in Virginia city.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 06, 2015, 04:12:13 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 06, 2015, 03:55:57 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?

https://www.facebook.com/colddeadhands
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 06, 2015, 04:24:42 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 04:09:00 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on October 06, 2015, 04:04:52 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 06, 2015, 03:55:57 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?

I think it is more accurately described as 90 guns for every 100 people. Can't be arsed pulling up the source, but I read that this morning.

The shooter last week had 'access' to 13 legally held weapons. All were purchased in the last 3 years. Apparently 6 of them were his own and were found on campus: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/oregon-college-shootings-witnesses-recall-horror-as-obama-calls-for-action (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/oregon-college-shootings-witnesses-recall-horror-as-obama-calls-for-action)

i heard somewhere that the shooter was 20 years old and you can not legally own a gun in america until you are 21.
i stand to be corrected on that but he cant have had 6 of his own guns legally if this is the case. he might have had access alright, that's another issue altogether! as we seen yesterday with that 11 year old!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 06, 2015, 04:27:20 PM
actually i just read another report that said he was 26 so he could well have bought 13 guns for himself, which is ANOTHER issue!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 04:28:30 PM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 06, 2015, 04:24:42 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 04:09:00 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on October 06, 2015, 04:04:52 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 06, 2015, 03:55:57 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?

I think it is more accurately described as 90 guns for every 100 people. Can't be arsed pulling up the source, but I read that this morning.

The shooter last week had 'access' to 13 legally held weapons. All were purchased in the last 3 years. Apparently 6 of them were his own and were found on campus: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/oregon-college-shootings-witnesses-recall-horror-as-obama-calls-for-action (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/oregon-college-shootings-witnesses-recall-horror-as-obama-calls-for-action)

i heard somewhere that the shooter was 20 years old and you can not legally own a gun in america until you are 21.
i stand to be corrected on that but he cant have had 6 of his own guns legally if this is the case. he might have had access alright, that's another issue altogether! as we seen yesterday with that 11 year old!

"All 13 weapons were purchased legally by the shooter or a family member in the last three years, Nunez said,"

The article quotes Nunez, of the of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). As an aside, anyone know why are firearms and explosives lumped in with Alcohol and Tobacco? 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 06, 2015, 04:30:18 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 03:17:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 05, 2015, 08:48:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 03, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

You can't pretend to know any of that from the photo you posted.

What?
I can see that their hands are not on their holsters.
I can see that they are not looking at the people they have lined up in front of them.
I can see that if a killer is standing right in from of them, and made a move, that they wouldn't see it immediately.

Quote
A bombing incident (like the ones you describe) are a totally different thing and you know it.

Ah the old 'and you know it' line. Randomly killing innocent people is obviously the common theme. The choice of weapon is hardly a major factor, and you know it!  :D

Quote
After a bombing it is highly unlikely that there is a second bomber running around with a device in their pocket ready to bomb people at random.  Your analogy is way off.

Really? After a shooting, going by most of the other shootings, it would also appear highly unlikely that there is a 2nd shooter etc, etc, as well. Way off my arse. Whether you kill innocent people with a gun or a bomb it hardly matters. In fact with a bombing it is probably more likely that there is more than one person involved, at the very least in the planning of the bomb.

My issue is with the way they treat the survivors. For me there is something hideous about surviving a mass-shooting and then being lined up with your hands over your head, because police bosses need to be seen to be in control.

Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 06, 2015, 04:36:45 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 04:30:18 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 03:17:30 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 05, 2015, 08:48:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 03, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 03, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

You can't pretend to know any of that from the photo you posted.

What?
I can see that their hands are not on their holsters.
I can see that they are not looking at the people they have lined up in front of them.
I can see that if a killer is standing right in from of them, and made a move, that they wouldn't see it immediately.

Quote
A bombing incident (like the ones you describe) are a totally different thing and you know it.

Ah the old 'and you know it' line. Randomly killing innocent people is obviously the common theme. The choice of weapon is hardly a major factor, and you know it!  :D

Quote
After a bombing it is highly unlikely that there is a second bomber running around with a device in their pocket ready to bomb people at random.  Your analogy is way off.

Really? After a shooting, going by most of the other shootings, it would also appear highly unlikely that there is a 2nd shooter etc, etc, as well. Way off my arse. Whether you kill innocent people with a gun or a bomb it hardly matters. In fact with a bombing it is probably more likely that there is more than one person involved, at the very least in the planning of the bomb.

My issue is with the way they treat the survivors. For me there is something hideous about surviving a mass-shooting and then being lined up with your hands over your head, because police bosses need to be seen to be in control.

Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.


He has a point muppet!

The cops had snipers protecting them  from the rooftops, that was why they were not worried about their own safety as much, plus if they drawn their guns students, some students might have panicked and really effed things up.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 06, 2015, 04:40:42 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 06, 2015, 04:48:13 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 06, 2015, 04:40:42 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.

I'd rather let intruders take the TV than have a gun battle in a confined space with the family about
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:16:06 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 04:30:18 PM
Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.

Yawn. I am pointing out the insensitive treatment of survivors, as I see it. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see it was a completely pointless. exercise But even before we had the benefit of hindsight, we could reasonably argue that it was likely to pointless by asking how often has this approach yielded results in the past?

But you keep throwing out your insults and personalising the debate, 'as always'.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:24:11 PM
Quote from: stew on October 06, 2015, 04:36:45 PM
He has a point muppet!

The cops had snipers protecting them  from the rooftops, that was why they were not worried about their own safety as much, plus if they drawn their guns students, some students might have panicked and really effed things up.

But if the students might panic as the sight of a cop drawing a gun, how did they feel about snipers pointing their weapons at them?

They had just been through a very stressful ordeal. Some more than others obviously, but the possibility of abnormal behaviour, for example a panic attack, from one of them would have been a lot higher than normal. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 06, 2015, 05:33:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:16:06 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 04:30:18 PM
Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.

Yawn. I am pointing out the insensitive treatment of survivors, as I see it. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see it was a completely pointless. exercise But even before we had the benefit of hindsight, we could reasonably argue that it was likely to pointless by asking how often has this approach yielded results in the past?

But you keep throwing out your insults and personalising the debate, 'as always'.

I don't know. You tell me, you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:42:51 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 05:33:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:16:06 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 04:30:18 PM
Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.


Yawn. I am pointing out the insensitive treatment of survivors, as I see it. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see it was a completely pointless. exercise But even before we had the benefit of hindsight, we could reasonably argue that it was likely to pointless by asking how often has this approach yielded results in the past?

But you keep throwing out your insults and personalising the debate, 'as always'.

I don't know. You tell me, you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?

You seem to spend all you time arguing against things that weren't said and then turn them into insults. I have never said that I was 'well versed on how to handle these incidents', nor even suggested it.

Do you posts here also mean that you are also obviously 'well versed on how to handle these incidents', or does the sarcasm only work one way?

You are the one defending lining up all survivors and treating all them as suspects. Even in the absence of a suspect or any information pointing to the existence of such a suspect.

I asked you to give me an example of where this has been productive. If you can't fair enough, but now you want me to find evidence to support your argument?  :D

If you have nothing constructive to say on the subject, other than insults, why are you bothering?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 06, 2015, 06:34:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:42:51 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 05:33:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:16:06 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 04:30:18 PM
Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.


Yawn. I am pointing out the insensitive treatment of survivors, as I see it. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see it was a completely pointless. exercise But even before we had the benefit of hindsight, we could reasonably argue that it was likely to pointless by asking how often has this approach yielded results in the past?

But you keep throwing out your insults and personalising the debate, 'as always'.

I don't know. You tell me, you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?

You seem to spend all you time arguing against things that weren't said and then turn them into insults. I have never said that I was 'well versed on how to handle these incidents', nor even suggested it.

Do you posts here also mean that you are also obviously 'well versed on how to handle these incidents', or does the sarcasm only work one way?

You are the one defending lining up all survivors and treating all them as suspects. Even in the absence of a suspect or any information pointing to the existence of such a suspect.

I asked you to give me an example of where this has been productive. If you can't fair enough, but now you want me to find evidence to support your argument?  :D

If you have nothing constructive to say on the subject, other than insults, why are you bothering?

On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents.  All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 07:19:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 06:34:20 PM
On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents. All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!

Where did I claim this?

As for the initial claim, I disagreed with the way they treated survivors. Now for this I get sarcasm and personal abuse, from yourself.  Only yourself mind.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 06, 2015, 07:55:58 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:24:11 PM
Quote from: stew on October 06, 2015, 04:36:45 PM
He has a point muppet!

The cops had snipers protecting them  from the rooftops, that was why they were not worried about their own safety as much, plus if they drawn their guns students, some students might have panicked and really effed things up.

But if the students might panic as the sight of a cop drawing a gun, how did they feel about snipers pointing their weapons at them?

They had just been through a very stressful ordeal. Some more than others obviously, but the possibility of abnormal behaviour, for example a panic attack, from one of them would have been a lot higher than normal.

What would you have them do?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 08:18:48 PM
Quote from: stew on October 06, 2015, 07:55:58 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:24:11 PM
Quote from: stew on October 06, 2015, 04:36:45 PM
He has a point muppet!

The cops had snipers protecting them  from the rooftops, that was why they were not worried about their own safety as much, plus if they drawn their guns students, some students might have panicked and really effed things up.

But if the students might panic as the sight of a cop drawing a gun, how did they feel about snipers pointing their weapons at them?

They had just been through a very stressful ordeal. Some more than others obviously, but the possibility of abnormal behaviour, for example a panic attack, from one of them would have been a lot higher than normal.

What would you have them do?

Treat them as if they had just survived a mass shooting. Many of these people would need counselling, or to make contact with their loved ones to tell them they were fine, or to check on loved ones to see if they were ok. We can't tell too much from a couple of photos, I accept that, but to be all lined up with your hands on your head is adding insult to injury for me.

The narrative always seems to be about 'The Bad Guy'. The NRA always rant about 'the bad guy with a gun'. Even when he is already dead it seems they prioritise looking for another bad guy with a gun, rather than helping survivors. Even the examples of cops shooting unarmed men can arguably be put down to cops making poor decisions, under pressure, because of this constant fear of the bad guy with a gun.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 06, 2015, 08:51:58 PM
https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/11/30/lockdown-silent-safety-drill-the-school-security-language-debate/v30JvvEZR8T2R8dARoGG2H/story.html

Most schools districts would have an "active shooter drill" already in place prior to something like this happening.

If you disagreed with certain aspects of the drill in your district, Im sure you could make your views known at the next town meeting.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 09:08:21 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 06, 2015, 08:51:58 PM
https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/11/30/lockdown-silent-safety-drill-the-school-security-language-debate/v30JvvEZR8T2R8dARoGG2H/story.html

Most schools districts would have an "active shooter drill" already in place prior to something like this happening.

If you disagreed with certain aspects of the drill in your district, Im sure you could make your views known at the next town meeting.

All of that is fine and understandable from the schools point of view.

But where is the discourse on the killers and their weapons from the wider community? For example regarding weapons, you can have your deodorant confiscated in an airport, because of an attack 14 years ago, but you can own 6 guns and bring them on campus, because it is a civil right.

And then there are the killers. Are there any psychologists here (or similar) that can explain, even to a small degree, what possesses people to take a gun into a school and fire at random targets? Is there a profile that they usually confirm to, or is it just completely random?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 06, 2015, 09:20:51 PM
This guy and the Newtown guy (and quite a few of the other shooters) were taking some type of anti psychotic medication-usually Ritalin or some such drug, which gets completely over prescribed over here.

Its the easy way out for the schools and parents who often dont have the resources to work through minor behavioral issues (thats a generalization, but true for the most part)

Many of the shooters were/are also "on the spectrum", ie suffering from some form of Autism.

Why anyone would think giving someone like thata gun, is beyond me.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 10:46:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 06, 2015, 09:20:51 PM
This guy and the Newtown guy (and quite a few of the other shooters) were taking some type of anti psychotic medication-usually Ritalin or some such drug, which gets completely over prescribed over here.

Its the easy way out for the schools and parents who often dont have the resources to work through minor behavioral issues (thats a generalization, but true for the most part)

Many of the shooters were/are also "on the spectrum", ie suffering from some form of Autism.

Why anyone would think giving someone like thata gun, is beyond me.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414/

I didn't realise that about medication and these shooters.

That opens up a few issues, not least the issuing of guns (6!) as you mentioned. I spent a summer in the States in my teens and one of the family I stayed with was (as it was called then) moderately mentally handicapped. I  know we are talking about a different part of the spectrum, and probably a different spectrum, but I was very impressed with the organisation of his life and the routine that his family and wider community had made for him.

My impression of the States, as a result, was that the community offered great support to those in need. But maybe this was not that widespread?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Bazil Douglas on October 06, 2015, 11:21:05 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 06, 2015, 04:40:42 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.

Stricter controls would go a long way in fixing this problem, but it really is the wild west,some states in america actually permit the carrying of an assault rifle in public.WTF does anyone need an assault rifle for.I own several guns myself,but  to do so  I needed background checks, references, a suitable storage cabinet,proof of gun club membership,and theres rules were and when I can carry and use these weapons. there's absolutely no rules in America. Northern Ireland has over 150,000 legally held weapons which really don't pose the problems we see in America.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 07, 2015, 03:36:02 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 10:46:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 06, 2015, 09:20:51 PM
This guy and the Newtown guy (and quite a few of the other shooters) were taking some type of anti psychotic medication-usually Ritalin or some such drug, which gets completely over prescribed over here.

Its the easy way out for the schools and parents who often dont have the resources to work through minor behavioral issues (thats a generalization, but true for the most part)

Many of the shooters were/are also "on the spectrum", ie suffering from some form of Autism.

Why anyone would think giving someone like thata gun, is beyond me.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414/

I didn't realise that about medication and these shooters.

That opens up a few issues, not least the issuing of guns (6!) as you mentioned. I spent a summer in the States in my teens and one of the family I stayed with was (as it was called then) moderately mentally handicapped. I  know we are talking about a different part of the spectrum, and probably a different spectrum, but I was very impressed with the organisation of his life and the routine that his family and wider community had made for him.

My impression of the States, as a result, was that the community offered great support to those in need. But maybe this was not that widespread?

Well the problem is, you cant legislate for stupidity.  Who would give a gun (of any description) to someone suffering from mental problems? 

Theres great support for the disabled in the States.....50 times better than what youd find in Ireland The wealthier the state and the town, the better it gets. ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) provides for all sorts of support that is legally mandated.

The question is....where does someones RIGHT to own a gun end? 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 07, 2015, 07:03:55 AM
Quote from: stew on October 06, 2015, 03:52:01 PM

I just watched a youtube clip were a boy was telling us that they USA ranks 111th on gun related deaths per 100,000 people per capita, now this is because the USA has the highest gun ownership in the world with 90 people out of a hundred people having one.

Honduras was numero uno, he further stated that if Detroit was taken out of the equation and was it's own country, at 54 per 1000,000 it would rank second out of 218 nations.

I suppose the so called facts could be wrong but I thought the yanks would be top ten/fifteen.

Maybe 11th

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on October 07, 2015, 07:11:07 AM
Quote from: whitey on October 07, 2015, 03:36:02 AM
Theres great support for the disabled in the States.....50 times better than what youd find in Ireland The wealthier the state and the town, the better it gets. ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) provides for all sorts of support that is legally mandated.

That's handy, if the gunman only injures you.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 07, 2015, 09:17:14 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 07:19:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 06:34:20 PM
On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents. All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!

Where did I claim this?

As for the initial claim, I disagreed with the way they treated survivors. Now for this I get sarcasm and personal abuse, from yourself.  Only yourself mind.

I don't think that's all you got.  The only thing I said that could possibly be construed as abuse was that I thought your opinions stemmed from you prejudices about the police in America.  That opinion wasn't only raised by me mind.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 11:34:13 AM
Quote from: Franko on October 07, 2015, 09:17:14 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 07:19:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 06:34:20 PM
On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents. All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!

Where did I claim this?

As for the initial claim, I disagreed with the way they treated survivors. Now for this I get sarcasm and personal abuse, from yourself.  Only yourself mind.

I don't think that's all you got.  The only thing I said that could possibly be construed as abuse was that I thought your opinions stemmed from you prejudices about the police in America.  That opinion wasn't only raised by me mind.

"Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always."
"you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?"
"I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else."

I have my opinions, you have yours. You don't argue yours, you simply insult mine and call them prejudices. Anyone else who disagreed with me simply discussed the points. AZ suggested I was merely having a go at the cops. He hasn't mentioned it since. You haven't stopped mentioning it. There is a difference.

You also referred to a claim I am supposed to have made.

Where did I make that claim?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 07, 2015, 01:53:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 07, 2015, 11:34:13 AM
Quote from: Franko on October 07, 2015, 09:17:14 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 07:19:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 06:34:20 PM
On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents. All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!

Where did I claim this?

As for the initial claim, I disagreed with the way they treated survivors. Now for this I get sarcasm and personal abuse, from yourself.  Only yourself mind.

I don't think that's all you got.  The only thing I said that could possibly be construed as abuse was that I thought your opinions stemmed from you prejudices about the police in America.  That opinion wasn't only raised by me mind.

"Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always."
"you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?"
"I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else."

I have my opinions, you have yours. You don't argue yours, you simply insult mine and call them prejudices. Anyone else who disagreed with me simply discussed the points. AZ suggested I was merely having a go at the cops. He hasn't mentioned it since. You haven't stopped mentioning it. There is a difference.

You also referred to a claim I am supposed to have made.

Where did I make that claim?

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that either of those first two lines are 'insults'.

The reason AZ didn't repeat it is because you basically agreed with him a couple of posts later.

I engaged with you initially by countering the three points you made initially (post #311) which you still haven't answered.  I don't understand how that can be seen as me not arguing the case?

As for your claim, you said that it was a completely pointless exercise and had they looked at other such events in the past, they would have realised this.  I took this to mean that if they had looked at past events, they would have seen that it was pointless, and may have handled the situation differently.  Did you mean something else?  I also asked you to point out these events, which you didn't do.

Anyway, this is going nowhere.  I think the police handled the situation fine. A few others pointed out that this is part of their training and part of protocols in the USA in the aftermath of this type of event (crazy that this is necessary).  You disagree.  That's fine.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 07, 2015, 02:49:59 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 07, 2015, 07:03:55 AM
Quote from: stew on October 06, 2015, 03:52:01 PM

I just watched a youtube clip were a boy was telling us that they USA ranks 111th on gun related deaths per 100,000 people per capita, now this is because the USA has the highest gun ownership in the world with 90 people out of a hundred people having one.

Honduras was numero uno, he further stated that if Detroit was taken out of the equation and was it's own country, at 54 per 1000,000 it would rank second out of 218 nations.

I suppose the so called facts could be wrong but I thought the yanks would be top ten/fifteen.

Maybe 11th

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Maybe 111th, we both used wiki so who knows.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 02:52:10 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 07, 2015, 01:53:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 07, 2015, 11:34:13 AM
Quote from: Franko on October 07, 2015, 09:17:14 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 07:19:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 06:34:20 PM
On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents. All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!

Where did I claim this?

As for the initial claim, I disagreed with the way they treated survivors. Now for this I get sarcasm and personal abuse, from yourself.  Only yourself mind.

I don't think that's all you got.  The only thing I said that could possibly be construed as abuse was that I thought your opinions stemmed from you prejudices about the police in America.  That opinion wasn't only raised by me mind.

"Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always."
"you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?"
"I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else."

I have my opinions, you have yours. You don't argue yours, you simply insult mine and call them prejudices. Anyone else who disagreed with me simply discussed the points. AZ suggested I was merely having a go at the cops. He hasn't mentioned it since. You haven't stopped mentioning it. There is a difference.

You also referred to a claim I am supposed to have made.

Where did I make that claim?

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that either of those first two lines are 'insults'.

The reason AZ didn't repeat it is because you basically agreed with him a couple of posts later.

I engaged with you initially by countering the three points you made initially (post #311) which you still haven't answered.  I don't understand how that can be seen as me not arguing the case?

As for your claim, you said that it was a completely pointless exercise and had they looked at other such events in the past, they would have realised this.  I took this to mean that if they had looked at past events, they would have seen that it was pointless, and may have handled the situation differently.  Did you mean something else?  I also asked you to point out these events, which you didn't do.

Anyway, this is going nowhere.  I think the police handled the situation fine. A few others pointed out that this is part of their training and part of protocols in the USA in the aftermath of this type of event (crazy that this is necessary).  You disagree.  That's fine.

I can leave it there too.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 07, 2015, 03:04:05 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 07, 2015, 03:36:02 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 10:46:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 06, 2015, 09:20:51 PM
This guy and the Newtown guy (and quite a few of the other shooters) were taking some type of anti psychotic medication-usually Ritalin or some such drug, which gets completely over prescribed over here.

Its the easy way out for the schools and parents who often dont have the resources to work through minor behavioral issues (thats a generalization, but true for the most part)

Many of the shooters were/are also "on the spectrum", ie suffering from some form of Autism.

Why anyone would think giving someone like thata gun, is beyond me.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414/

I didn't realise that about medication and these shooters.

That opens up a few issues, not least the issuing of guns (6!) as you mentioned. I spent a summer in the States in my teens and one of the family I stayed with was (as it was called then) moderately mentally handicapped. I  know we are talking about a different part of the spectrum, and probably a different spectrum, but I was very impressed with the organisation of his life and the routine that his family and wider community had made for him.

My impression of the States, as a result, was that the community offered great support to those in need. But maybe this was not that widespread?

Well the problem is, you cant legislate for stupidity.  Who would give a gun (of any description) to someone suffering from mental problems? 

Theres great support for the disabled in the States.....50 times better than what youd find in Ireland The wealthier the state and the town, the better it gets. ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) provides for all sorts of support that is legally mandated.

The question is....where does someones RIGHT to own a gun end?

It used to end with assault weapons until the NRA-owned congress allowed the ban to lapse.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 04:54:49 PM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on October 06, 2015, 11:21:05 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 06, 2015, 04:40:42 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.

Stricter controls would go a long way in fixing this problem, but it really is the wild west,some states in america actually permit the carrying of an assault rifle in public.WTF does anyone need an assault rifle for.I own several guns myself,but  to do so  I needed background checks, references, a suitable storage cabinet,proof of gun club membership,and theres rules were and when I can carry and use these weapons. there's absolutely no rules in America. Northern Ireland has over 150,000 legally held weapons which really don't pose the problems we see in America.
In fairness there are rules in America in different states. Out here in WA I just needed a drivers license to get a gun - I had a small bit of paperwork to fill out because I'm not a US Citizen but aside from that it was relatively easy. Back in NJ I had a much longer wait for a permit. But you're right none of the same checks there would be in the North of Ireland.  If they upped the restrictions in all the states it would solve some of the problems in the long term. But any hint of gun reform or gun control coming and everyone and their granny is out stocking up on guns.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:03:11 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 04:54:49 PM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on October 06, 2015, 11:21:05 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 06, 2015, 04:40:42 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.

Stricter controls would go a long way in fixing this problem, but it really is the wild west,some states in america actually permit the carrying of an assault rifle in public.WTF does anyone need an assault rifle for.I own several guns myself,but  to do so  I needed background checks, references, a suitable storage cabinet,proof of gun club membership,and theres rules were and when I can carry and use these weapons. there's absolutely no rules in America. Northern Ireland has over 150,000 legally held weapons which really don't pose the problems we see in America.
In fairness there are rules in America in different states. Out here in WA I just needed a drivers license to get a gun - I had a small bit of paperwork to fill out because I'm not a US Citizen but aside from that it was relatively easy. Back in NJ I had a much longer wait for a permit. But you're right none of the same checks there would be in the North of Ireland.  If they upped the restrictions in all the states it would solve some of the problems in the long term. But any hint of gun reform or gun control coming and everyone and their granny is out stocking up on guns.

Why is this? What is the mentality behind that?? If I read you right, you are saying that if gun control is introduced, there will be millions who deliberately and publicly break the law.

In Ireland we introduced the smoking ban in pubs and, despite predictions of widespread disobedience, it worked almost right away.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:24:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:03:11 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 04:54:49 PM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on October 06, 2015, 11:21:05 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 06, 2015, 04:40:42 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.

Stricter controls would go a long way in fixing this problem, but it really is the wild west,some states in america actually permit the carrying of an assault rifle in public.WTF does anyone need an assault rifle for.I own several guns myself,but  to do so  I needed background checks, references, a suitable storage cabinet,proof of gun club membership,and theres rules were and when I can carry and use these weapons. there's absolutely no rules in America. Northern Ireland has over 150,000 legally held weapons which really don't pose the problems we see in America.
In fairness there are rules in America in different states. Out here in WA I just needed a drivers license to get a gun - I had a small bit of paperwork to fill out because I'm not a US Citizen but aside from that it was relatively easy. Back in NJ I had a much longer wait for a permit. But you're right none of the same checks there would be in the North of Ireland.  If they upped the restrictions in all the states it would solve some of the problems in the long term. But any hint of gun reform or gun control coming and everyone and their granny is out stocking up on guns.

Why is this? What is the mentality behind that?? If I read you right, you are saying that if gun control is introduced, there will be millions who deliberately and publicly break the law.

In Ireland we introduced the smoking ban in pubs and, despite predictions of widespread disobedience, it worked almost right away.
No I'm saying that laws take time to be introduced. So in the waiting period, people will rush to buy guns to avoid any impending control laws.  Comparing the smoking ban to gun control shows little to know understanding of the american people. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:32:11 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:24:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:03:11 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 04:54:49 PM
Quote from: Bazil Douglas on October 06, 2015, 11:21:05 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 06, 2015, 04:40:42 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.

Stricter controls would go a long way in fixing this problem, but it really is the wild west,some states in america actually permit the carrying of an assault rifle in public.WTF does anyone need an assault rifle for.I own several guns myself,but  to do so  I needed background checks, references, a suitable storage cabinet,proof of gun club membership,and theres rules were and when I can carry and use these weapons. there's absolutely no rules in America. Northern Ireland has over 150,000 legally held weapons which really don't pose the problems we see in America.
In fairness there are rules in America in different states. Out here in WA I just needed a drivers license to get a gun - I had a small bit of paperwork to fill out because I'm not a US Citizen but aside from that it was relatively easy. Back in NJ I had a much longer wait for a permit. But you're right none of the same checks there would be in the North of Ireland.  If they upped the restrictions in all the states it would solve some of the problems in the long term. But any hint of gun reform or gun control coming and everyone and their granny is out stocking up on guns.

Why is this? What is the mentality behind that?? If I read you right, you are saying that if gun control is introduced, there will be millions who deliberately and publicly break the law.

In Ireland we introduced the smoking ban in pubs and, despite predictions of widespread disobedience, it worked almost right away.
No I'm saying that laws take time to be introduced. So in the waiting period, people will rush to buy guns to avoid any impending control laws.  Comparing the smoking ban to gun control shows little to know understanding of the american people.

Ah ffs.

I was obviously asking you to clarify what you meant.

I will try again.

Presumably gun controls will limit the ability to buy and own guns?

Are you saying that people will deliberately ignore this?


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:41:34 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:46:15 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:41:34 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:46:15 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:41:34 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?
Future sale of weapons. Based on the people on the ground, thats all it will do.  The results of which will not be realized for decades.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:53:53 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:46:15 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:41:34 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?
Future sale of weapons. Based on the people on the ground, thats all it will do.  The results of which will not be realized for decades.

That isn't really gun control at all. Given the amount of guns currently in circulation. It is more like a compromise that gun-owners would agree to. But as you say, it wouldn't be remotely effective for decades.

Gun control, for me, would have to introduce limits on ownership as well. Did Mercer's family need 13 guns? Did Mercer really need 6? Does anyone need 6 guns? What good would gun control be if it doesn't address these questions?

That is why I was asking would people stock up, knowing they were breaking the (hypothetical) new gun control laws?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 06:01:50 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:53:53 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:46:15 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:41:34 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?
Future sale of weapons. Based on the people on the ground, thats all it will do.  The results of which will not be realized for decades.

That isn't really gun control at all. Given the amount of guns currently in circulation. It is more like a compromise that gun-owners would agree to. But as you say, it wouldn't be remotely effective for decades.

Gun control, for me, would have to introduce limits on ownership as well. Did Mercer's family need 13 guns? Did Mercer really need 6? Does anyone need 6 guns? What good would gun control be if it doesn't address these questions?

That is why I was asking would people stock up, knowing they were breaking the (hypothetical) new gun control laws?

Are you proposing then that people hand over guns in some kind of amnesty? Or that people have to register their guns and have local law enforcement enforce that with home checks etc..? Would either of those really work? Would they take the guns out of the hands of criminals? Crazy people?
I don't believe they would - knowing what it's actually like here.

6 guns in a household of 4 people isn't a lot. Right now I have two rifles a hand gun, a cross bow and a compound bow. My kids are not old enough to hunt yet but when they are I will allow them air rifles to start. How do you put a limit on that?

Like I said early on -we're passed the point of no return with guns in america. there are too many. the people are too far gone. it is what it is unfortunately.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 06:13:01 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 06:01:50 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:53:53 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:46:15 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:41:34 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?
Future sale of weapons. Based on the people on the ground, thats all it will do.  The results of which will not be realized for decades.

That isn't really gun control at all. Given the amount of guns currently in circulation. It is more like a compromise that gun-owners would agree to. But as you say, it wouldn't be remotely effective for decades.

Gun control, for me, would have to introduce limits on ownership as well. Did Mercer's family need 13 guns? Did Mercer really need 6? Does anyone need 6 guns? What good would gun control be if it doesn't address these questions?

That is why I was asking would people stock up, knowing they were breaking the (hypothetical) new gun control laws?

Are you proposing then that people hand over guns in some kind of amnesty? Or that people have to register their guns and have local law enforcement enforce that with home checks etc..? Would either of those really work? Would they take the guns out of the hands of criminals? Crazy people?
I don't believe they would - knowing what it's actually like here.

6 guns in a household of 4 people isn't a lot. Right now I have two rifles a hand gun, a cross bow and a compound bow. My kids are not old enough to hunt yet but when they are I will allow them air rifles to start. How do you put a limit on that?

Like I said early on -we're passed the point of no return with guns in america. there are too many. the people are too far gone. it is what it is unfortunately.

Amnesty yes. That would be the way to go, but I don't see enough Americans going for it.
Local Law Enforcement - Why not? If you don't register your weapons and are found to be in breach then you face prosecution. Shouldn't be a problem for decent citizens - which is the vast, vast majority.

'Would the take guns out of the hands of criminals?' - That isn't the problem though. The easy access to guns is the difference between 'crazy people' in the US and crazy people in many other countries. Remove the easy access to gun and they might simply remain crazy but otherwise harmless people.

Regarding Mercer, it was 13 guns in his house and 6 for himself.

If you think 6 guns in a house isn't a lot, then we are on different planets altogether. Why the arsenal? If every house in your city had that, I would guess that the odds that a 'crazy person' will have easy access shortens considerably.

And btw don't get me wrong about guns. I used to go to a firing range when in the West Coast and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on October 07, 2015, 06:46:54 PM
An old friend of mine is a newly retired former ATF Special Agent in Charge. His last posts before retirement were Boston, NJ, and NYC, and he was heavily involved in the aftermath of the Newtown massacre. He told me last night that when things didn't change (in relation to gun control) after Newtown, that is when he lost hope that they would.

A start for me would be tidying up the second hand gun market. Currently there are numerous states where I can sell my gun to my buddy with no background check, no additional information required. I can't do that with a car - why can I do it with a gun?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 07, 2015, 06:59:31 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 06:01:50 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:53:53 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:46:15 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:41:34 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?
Future sale of weapons. Based on the people on the ground, thats all it will do.  The results of which will not be realized for decades.

That isn't really gun control at all. Given the amount of guns currently in circulation. It is more like a compromise that gun-owners would agree to. But as you say, it wouldn't be remotely effective for decades.

Gun control, for me, would have to introduce limits on ownership as well. Did Mercer's family need 13 guns? Did Mercer really need 6? Does anyone need 6 guns? What good would gun control be if it doesn't address these questions?

That is why I was asking would people stock up, knowing they were breaking the (hypothetical) new gun control laws?

Are you proposing then that people hand over guns in some kind of amnesty? Or that people have to register their guns and have local law enforcement enforce that with home checks etc..? Would either of those really work? Would they take the guns out of the hands of criminals? Crazy people?
I don't believe they would - knowing what it's actually like here.

6 guns in a household of 4 people isn't a lot. Right now I have two rifles a hand gun, a cross bow and a compound bow. My kids are not old enough to hunt yet but when they are I will allow them air rifles to start. How do you put a limit on that?

Like I said early on -we're passed the point of no return with guns in america. there are too many. the people are too far gone. it is what it is unfortunately.

Iceman, i openly admit, i know F all about guns and dont hunt. however, the 'gun-totin' americans are allowed go in and buy machine guns and god knows what else (as i said my knowledge of guns is poor!) that are not really hunting guns!!

there are laws that can come into effect and restrict who can buy,and what they can buy, and how guns are stored. that would make things a bit safer almost straight away, the part of all this that is NOT a quick fix is the mentality of a lot of americans.
this thing of, "oh come on in and ill show you my collection of guns, ive got 37 guns, from antiques to top of the range almost military issue guns, and everything in between!",  basically its a pissing contest to see who has the most spectacular gun or who has the most lethal gun or the most amount of guns. its also this mentality of "oh if i have a gun in the house i am immediately safer." which is obviously not the case!! even the police are gun crazy! if a "bad guy" runs or disobeys etc, they would be pulling their guns and in some cases, shooting people dead!
it makes me feel proud that our police force here dont carry guns, apart from detectives etc. i hope it never has to change.
but the mentality issue is the biggest one. i think the best hope for changing that is a good education on the issue from a young age.
have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  ::) worth a watch!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on October 07, 2015, 07:03:20 PM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 07, 2015, 06:59:31 PM
have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  ::) worth a watch!

Opening a bank account is actually quite a pain nowadays, with id, proof of address etc, probably more so than getting a gun.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 07, 2015, 07:15:17 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 07, 2015, 07:03:20 PM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 07, 2015, 06:59:31 PM
have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  ::) worth a watch!

Opening a bank account is actually quite a pain nowadays, with id, proof of address etc, probably more so than getting a gun.

;D this is true i guess!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on October 07, 2015, 07:18:37 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 07, 2015, 07:03:20 PM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 07, 2015, 06:59:31 PM
have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  ::) worth a watch!

Opening a bank account is actually quite a pain nowadays, with id, proof of address etc, probably more so than getting a gun.

It might seem obvious that the thing to do is to impose more restrictions on buying a gun, of the type that go along with opening a bank account or buying a car, but the problem is that there is no constitutionally enshrined guarantee of car or bank account ownership.  That there is such a guarantee for gun ownership can only be changed with a retraction of a constitutional amendment (the second amendment), and there has only ever been one of those in the history of the US.   
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on October 07, 2015, 07:20:26 PM
I'm not sure how you prevent the mentally unstable from getting guns either, given their constitutional right.  After all, blind people can have guns too:

lhttp://www.cnn.com/2013/09/08/us/gun-permits-blind/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/08/us/gun-permits-blind/index.html)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 07:23:40 PM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 07, 2015, 06:59:31 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 06:01:50 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:53:53 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:46:15 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:41:34 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?
Future sale of weapons. Based on the people on the ground, thats all it will do.  The results of which will not be realized for decades.

That isn't really gun control at all. Given the amount of guns currently in circulation. It is more like a compromise that gun-owners would agree to. But as you say, it wouldn't be remotely effective for decades.

Gun control, for me, would have to introduce limits on ownership as well. Did Mercer's family need 13 guns? Did Mercer really need 6? Does anyone need 6 guns? What good would gun control be if it doesn't address these questions?

That is why I was asking would people stock up, knowing they were breaking the (hypothetical) new gun control laws?

Are you proposing then that people hand over guns in some kind of amnesty? Or that people have to register their guns and have local law enforcement enforce that with home checks etc..? Would either of those really work? Would they take the guns out of the hands of criminals? Crazy people?
I don't believe they would - knowing what it's actually like here.

6 guns in a household of 4 people isn't a lot. Right now I have two rifles a hand gun, a cross bow and a compound bow. My kids are not old enough to hunt yet but when they are I will allow them air rifles to start. How do you put a limit on that?

Like I said early on -we're passed the point of no return with guns in america. there are too many. the people are too far gone. it is what it is unfortunately.

Iceman, i openly admit, i know F all about guns and dont hunt. however, the 'gun-totin' americans are allowed go in and buy machine guns and god knows what else (as i said my knowledge of guns is poor!) that are not really hunting guns!!

there are laws that can come into effect and restrict who can buy,and what they can buy, and how guns are stored. that would make things a bit safer almost straight away, the part of all this that is NOT a quick fix is the mentality of a lot of americans.
this thing of, "oh come on in and ill show you my collection of guns, ive got 37 guns, from antiques to top of the range almost military issue guns, and everything in between!",  basically its a pissing contest to see who has the most spectacular gun or who has the most lethal gun or the most amount of guns. its also this mentality of "oh if i have a gun in the house i am immediately safer." which is obviously not the case!! even the police are gun crazy! if a "bad guy" runs or disobeys etc, they would be pulling their guns and in some cases, shooting people dead!
it makes me feel proud that our police force here dont carry guns, apart from detectives etc. i hope it never has to change.
but the mentality issue is the biggest one. i think the best hope for changing that is a good education on the issue from a young age.
have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  ::) worth a watch!
I don't know a lot about guns. I know enough to be dangerous (pardon the pun). I enjoy shooting, I enjoy hunting. I have gone to the range and shot off a whole host of different fully automatic and semi automatic assault rifles (he is a SWAT team chief and has unlimited ammo and lots of weapons). It was a real blast (pardon the pun again). 
You are right about the mentality - it can be a pissing contest. But a lot of Americans believe they need to protect themselves and their family from either the criminal or from a corrupt government.  In the case of the criminal I know a man here who has a concealed carry permit and will openly tell you he is carrying 2-3 guns all the time. Getting into the why he does that might require a whole thread.  In the case of protecting themselves against a corrupt government this falls under the category of doomsday prepp'ers, old colonial America and conspiracy theory heaven.

@ Muppet - hunting ans shooting is an activity. A household of 6 mad in to hurling would hardly only have 6 hurls about the place? I understand hurling isn't intended to kill but just trying to draw an analogy.  I know lots of people in the North who legally hold 4-6 guns and I'm talking 2 person families and only the husband shoots.

Finbar is right though - the problem is the mentality.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 08:34:04 PM
Guns for hunting I can empathise with.
Guns in a club or a firing range I have no problem with at all.

Guns for self-defence is madness though. I don't have figures for the US (anyone?) but I suspect that most criminals tend to shoot mainly other criminals. Certainly that is the case in Ireland. It is undesirable, but let's face it, one dead criminal is one less criminal.

Innocent deaths are obviously a different thing altogether. The two kids, shot by other kids, in the US in the last few days alone shows the dangers of having guns easily available. It is difficult to see how guns for self-defence, which by definition must have quick access (who knows when you will need it right?) can also be safely put out of reach of kids and other who might mis-use them.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 08:45:12 PM
bedside access fingerprint locker that only opens for me or the mrs

do you not have any weapons at all mupper? a hurl in the boot of the car? a cosh? a tire knocker? most of the lads I knew around home would have something handy always close by...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on October 07, 2015, 08:47:43 PM
Iceman, what sort of a crew did you run with?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 08:50:38 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 08:45:12 PM
bedside access fingerprint locker that only opens for me or the mrs

do you not have any weapons at all mupper? a hurl in the boot of the car? a cosh? a tire knocker? most of the lads I knew around home would have something handy always close by...

I have a hurl. That is about it.

There are those who would say I have absolutely no idea how to use it.  :D
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 09:04:58 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on October 07, 2015, 08:47:43 PM
Iceman, what sort of a crew did you run with?
i fell in with a few bad crowds in my time ha all gentlemen of the highest
South Derry was my stomping ground for a long time - Draperstown and Maghera mostly. And I worked in a few notorious bars in my home town
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Bazil Douglas on October 07, 2015, 09:07:15 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 08:45:12 PM
bedside access fingerprint locker that only opens for me or the mrs

do you not have any weapons at all mupper? a hurl in the boot of the car? a cosh? a tire knocker? most of the lads I knew around home would have something handy always close by...

Jez Ice your starting to develope an american culture, guns in a bedside locker is it that dangerous.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 09:11:39 PM
what good would it be in a cupboard downstairs or in a safe in the garage...hold on there mr home invader while I run downstairs and get the gun
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Bazil Douglas on October 07, 2015, 09:27:31 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 09:11:39 PM
what good would it be in a cupboard downstairs or in a safe in the garage...hold on there mr home invader while I run downstairs and get the gun

Yeah that's what I mean is it that dangerous. couldnt be any worse than south Derry, some of those Maghera boys were a bad crew. LOL
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 07, 2015, 09:28:57 PM
Just out of curiosity, and this isn't a loaded question, but have you ever been robbed?

How many run of the mill, gun carrying thugs are going to persist in attempting to rob homes with good solid locks on the doors and windows and an alarm system?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 09:54:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on October 07, 2015, 09:28:57 PM
Just out of curiosity, and this isn't a loaded question, but have you ever been robbed?

How many run of the mill, gun carrying thugs are going to persist in attempting to rob homes with good solid locks on the doors and windows and an alarm system?
I haven't no - but I have a wife and 4 kids and live in a fairly remote area where nut jobs with a gun may or may not decide to burglarize some day.
Given the same facts would you take the chance or have something there and be ready should anyone come in to your house?
I store it correctly and safely. I'm trained on how to use it tactically. I've never needed to even reach for it. I take it out for the range and if the kids ask to see it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 07, 2015, 10:16:31 PM
I honestly don't know how I'd prepare in the same circumstances but I imagine I'd avoid guns altogether. Security lights, an alarm system and good quality windows and doors *should* be enough to deter any petty criminals out on the hunt for a TV or whatever else they can get from what would likely be a suburban, middle class home.

Is the fear mindset a massive factor more so in the States then other countries? If someone is looking to burgle me, they're highly unlikely to opportunistically help themselves to a few murders while they're at it. If I was to encounter armed burglars, the last thing I think I'd want to do with family in the house is start a firefight.

I'm perturbed particularly by your last comment. Surely the mere presence of the guns in the house is a source of fascination for the kids? Again, not loading the question, but when they ask to see the guns, why oblige rather than tell them something along the lines of "no, that's only for Daddy"?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on October 07, 2015, 10:19:13 PM
if your that paranoid about getting robbed and the need for a number of guns round the house, maybe its time to come home or set up in a safer country where they not gun mad.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 11:19:44 PM
Quote from: gallsman on October 07, 2015, 10:16:31 PM
I honestly don't know how I'd prepare in the same circumstances but I imagine I'd avoid guns altogether. Security lights, an alarm system and good quality windows and doors *should* be enough to deter any petty criminals out on the hunt for a TV or whatever else they can get from what would likely be a suburban, middle class home.

Is the fear mindset a massive factor more so in the States then other countries? If someone is looking to burgle me, they're highly unlikely to opportunistically help themselves to a few murders while they're at it. If I was to encounter armed burglars, the last thing I think I'd want to do with family in the house is start a firefight.

I'm perturbed particularly by your last comment. Surely the mere presence of the guns in the house is a source of fascination for the kids? Again, not loading the question, but when they ask to see the guns, why oblige rather than tell them something along the lines of "no, that's only for Daddy"?

I've been taught by a couple different people to address the kids curiosity. By hiding it, locking it away and making a treasure of it and never showing it them or explaining its nature it becomes even more appealing.  If they try some way or other to get to it themselves and are for some crazy reason successful then God knows what happens. This way they know what it is, how it looks, how it feels and what its for. I agree it is the safer approach.

Again I don't have an arsenal of guns here. A couple of rifles for hunting and a hand gun for home defense. I thankfully may never need it but you never know. There was more rifles about the home place when I lived in Ireland. I live in a realtively safe and quiet area where there has not been any crime for a long time. But i see no harm in being ready.
I continue to train in MMA, not because I have to compete or want to pick a fight but I enjoy it and if anything happens then I'll be better equipped to handle it than not. Does that make sense?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 08, 2015, 06:31:07 AM
It does but I don't necessarily agree with it. On one hand you say you live in quite a remote area, presumably implying a sense of exposure and vulnerability. On the other you live in a safe area with no crime and keep your gun "just in case".

It's that "just in case" mentality I can't really come to grips with.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 08, 2015, 06:57:26 AM
On the one hand I get what Iceman is talking about, there is alot of crazies in America, alot of down and outs, drug addiction, wealth disparity, gangs etc. All living side by side with super wealthy in a country where your status (way more so than anywhere else I've been to) is measured by your wealth. Robberies and burglaries are gonna happen and alot of those crazies I mentioned above have guns.

On the other hand I dont think I would ever have a gun about the house, certainly not a handgun, just dont think it would be that useful in that scenario, and i dont want the constant worry of kids finding one. But perhaps more to the point I want to believe that I live in a place that is civilised enough that I dont need to protect my family with a lethal weapon.

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have. Another thing is people in Ireland probably dont understand how remote you can be in America when living in the countryside, add on to that, that people who tend to go out to the woods want to live pretty solitary lives (in the West at least) so community is not the same as Ireland in the country, that community is a vital safety barrier against crime.

All in all, the guns are a major problem and should be sorted out, but unlikely to be for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: tyssam5 on October 08, 2015, 09:13:12 AM
Quote from: gallsman on October 07, 2015, 10:16:31 PM
I honestly don't know how I'd prepare in the same circumstances but I imagine I'd avoid guns altogether. Security lights, an alarm system and good quality windows and doors *should* be enough to deter any petty criminals out on the hunt for a TV or whatever else they can get from what would likely be a suburban, middle class home.

Is the fear mindset a massive factor more so in the States then other countries? If someone is looking to burgle me, they're highly unlikely to opportunistically help themselves to a few murders while they're at it. If I was to encounter armed burglars, the last thing I think I'd want to do with family in the house is start a firefight.

I'm perturbed particularly by your last comment. Surely the mere presence of the guns in the house is a source of fascination for the kids? Again, not loading the question, but when they ask to see the guns, why oblige rather than tell them something along the lines of "no, that's only for Daddy"?

I live in the next state down and I hardly ever even lock the door of the house.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 09:15:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 08, 2015, 06:57:26 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: imtommygunn on October 08, 2015, 09:18:55 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on October 07, 2015, 10:19:13 PM
if your that paranoid about getting robbed and the need for a number of guns round the house, maybe its time to come home or set up in a safer country where they not gun mad.

Precisely. It's an illustration that everything has gone too far. Everyone needs a gun because everyone else might have a gun. I don't know how they could ever go back from that situation.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 08, 2015, 09:26:21 AM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 09:15:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 08, 2015, 06:57:26 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

Point of order, the said oxygen thieves are Dubs, they came down the motorway to rob in South Tipperary.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 08, 2015, 09:42:22 AM
You'd love to be given ten minutes in an interrogation room without any cameras with every one of that shower. Utter scum.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 09:42:47 AM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 09:15:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 08, 2015, 06:57:26 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

I've asked before, but would it not be far better to let the thieves take what they want without having a friggin shoot out in the house?! Your house insurance will cover the cost and, more importantly,  you wont have shot anyone or anyone in the house wont have taken a bullet. 



Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 10:19:12 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 08, 2015, 09:26:21 AM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 09:15:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 08, 2015, 06:57:26 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

Point of order, the said oxygen thieves are Dubs, they came down the motorway to rob in South Tipperary.

FYI i meant no offence to Tipp folk, just that it took place in Tipp!  :)

Quote from: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 09:42:47 AM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 09:15:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 08, 2015, 06:57:26 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

I've asked before, but would it not be far better to let the thieves take what they want without having a friggin shoot out in the house?! Your house insurance will cover the cost and, more importantly,  you wont have shot anyone or anyone in the house wont have taken a bullet. 




by "Icemans position", i meant, if you have a gun and someone broke in. i kind of agree, no guns in the house is better but, if you are a keen hunter and you have guns and have them stored properly then, no problem, happy hunting!
i was just referring to a comment about the police reacting faster than anything Iceman could do.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on October 08, 2015, 03:01:21 PM
I find this hard to reconcile at times. I'm vehemently anti guns. I don't think anyone should have a gun. However, if I lived in the US with my wife and two girls I think I'd have a gun.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 08, 2015, 03:09:26 PM
I'm not vehemently anti guns. I'm vehemently anyone else owning one :)

Nah, I lived over there, never wanted one, nor went about getting one. And this was Arizona!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 03:18:51 PM
At the centre of this debate we seem to have, among others, two key arguments:

1) Guns at home risk shootings at home, e.g. young children find the gun.

2) I need a gun because of the threat of burglary or intruders.

Iceman has shown that he has taken serious measures to safeguard against 1) above that probably go well beyond what most people in the US do, which is fair enough.

But can you successfully argue that you can drastically reduce the risk of 1) but not be able to reduce the risk of 2)? The gun is surely a last resort against intruders, but why do many Americans feel the need to jump to the last resort on 2), without apparently considering the last resort on 1) - which for me is getting rid of the gun at home?

Is it that the risk of the guns falling into the wrong hands or used inappropriately is underestimated, while the risk of intruders causing serious harm is overestimated? Location also probably has a role to play in weighing up this dilemma.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 08, 2015, 03:26:21 PM
The other factor is, it's all very well to have a gun. Could you use it? Could you shoot another human being?I'm not sure anyone can answer that unless you're in that situation, and if you have a gun, and can't do it, then you are probably more in danger than if you didn't have one at all.

I don't know what I would do. I know I'd do anything to protect my family, but would I shoot someone that just 'broke in'?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 03:37:21 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 08, 2015, 03:26:21 PM
The other factor is, it's all very well to have a gun. Could you use it? Could you shoot another human being?I'm not sure anyone can answer that unless you're in that situation, and if you have a gun, and can't do it, then you are probably more in danger than if you didn't have one at all.

I don't know what I would do. I know I'd do anything to protect my family, but would I shoot someone that just 'broke in'?

Good question. In this case pulling a gun and not using it could be disastrous. If the 'bad guy' has a gun he will almost definitely shoot and if he doesn't, he will simply take yours.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 03:43:14 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 08, 2015, 03:01:21 PM
I find this hard to reconcile at times. I'm vehemently anti guns. I don't think anyone should have a gun. However, if I lived in the US with my wife and two girls I think I'd have a gun.

I don't understand this. Why? I lived over through for nearly a year, and getting a gun never entered into my thinking.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 08, 2015, 03:51:39 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 09:42:47 AM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 09:15:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 08, 2015, 06:57:26 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

I've asked before, but would it not be far better to let the thieves take what they want without having a friggin shoot out in the house?! Your house insurance will cover the cost and, more importantly,  you wont have shot anyone or anyone in the house wont have taken a bullet.
What if they were coming for your family? Would you let them take them? You've got guns, you're here for my daughter  -aye go on ahead lads.  I don't see the point of not being ready. Again I don't think I will ever have to use the gun, I pray I don't. But I don't think I will ever get in a fist fight again but continue to stay relatively sharp just in case.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 03:53:37 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 08, 2015, 03:51:39 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 09:42:47 AM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 09:15:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 08, 2015, 06:57:26 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

I've asked before, but would it not be far better to let the thieves take what they want without having a friggin shoot out in the house?! Your house insurance will cover the cost and, more importantly,  you wont have shot anyone or anyone in the house wont have taken a bullet.
What if they were coming for your family? Would you let them take them? You've got guns, you're here for my daughter  -aye go on ahead lads.  I don't see the point of not being ready. Again I don't think I will ever have to use the gun, I pray I don't. But I don't think I will ever get in a fist fight again but continue to stay relatively sharp just in case.

Why would anyone come for your family?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 08, 2015, 03:56:06 PM
This is why I was asking about the fear element. Previously you spoke of burglary, now you talk of someone coming for your family.

How much crime is people opportunistically breaking into houses in search of potential victims to rape or murder? Very, very little I imagine.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on October 08, 2015, 03:59:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 08, 2015, 03:53:37 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 08, 2015, 03:51:39 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 09:42:47 AM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 09:15:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 08, 2015, 06:57:26 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

I've asked before, but would it not be far better to let the thieves take what they want without having a friggin shoot out in the house?! Your house insurance will cover the cost and, more importantly,  you wont have shot anyone or anyone in the house wont have taken a bullet.
What if they were coming for your family? Would you let them take them? You've got guns, you're here for my daughter  -aye go on ahead lads.  I don't see the point of not being ready. Again I don't think I will ever have to use the gun, I pray I don't. But I don't think I will ever get in a fist fight again but continue to stay relatively sharp just in case.

Why would anyone come for your family?

That's where I struggle. . . what have you done on someone that they're going to kidnap your family? Sick people exist throughout the world but I don't have a constant fear of someone coming for my wife or daughter. Is it NRA/FOX NEWS propaganda that puts this fear into people in America?

I'm not having a go Iceman but if you have the guns locked away in a bedside cabinet how are you quickly going to get to that when a burglar jumps through the window?!

Hunting fair enough not that I agree with it but you need a gun for it and that's fair enough, the 'protection' thing I don't get unless you have some serious cash around the place I can't see this being a real reason to own a gun. None of this explains the assault rifles/ak's all over the country!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 04:04:31 PM
Add in the fact that 99% of us would be complete novices in a shootout.

Even well-trained cops can make a poor decision under extreme duress. What hope would we have of getting any crucial decisions right in that scenario?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 04:06:51 PM
i personally dont feel i need a gun for protection, but, im pretty sure that family in Tipp didnt do anything to those scumbags that entered their home... but they still had to go through that...

look, there is absolutely no point talking about Ireland in this equation really, we dont have a gun problem or gun law problem, or a strange unhealthy mentality towards guns. but the majority of folk in the 'US of A' really do!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 08, 2015, 04:10:11 PM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 04:06:51 PM
i personally dont feel i need a gun for protection, but, im pretty sure that family in Tipp didnt do anything to those scumbags that entered their home... but they still had to go through that...

look, there is absolutely no point talking about Ireland in this equation really, we dont have a gun problem or gun law problem, or a strange unhealthy mentality towards guns. but the majority of folk in the 'US of A' really do!

Interesting parallel though. If the father had a gun, and started shooting or trying to threaten to shoot, I wonder would the outcome have been much more tragic?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 04:12:45 PM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 04:06:51 PM
i personally dont feel i need a gun for protection, but, im pretty sure that family in Tipp didnt do anything to those scumbags that entered their home... but they still had to go through that...

look, there is absolutely no point talking about Ireland in this equation really, we dont have a gun problem or gun law problem, or a strange unhealthy mentality towards guns. but the majority of folk in the 'US of A' really do!

They did nothing, according to the article the scumbags had duff info.

However if the family had pulled a gun, either some of the criminals, or some of the family would be now dead. It would be hard to calculate the odds either way, but arguably the family members would have been in more danger with a gun present.

Shooting the 'bad 'guy' seem to be a massively powerful narrative in the US, but at what risk to loved ones?

Edit: Just saw Az's post which made much the same point.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 04:14:59 PM
i stand to be corrected but i think the father would have been within his rights to blow the heads off these f**kers.
the family would probably end up being even more traumatized from that though...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on October 08, 2015, 04:15:05 PM
The self defence plank is central to the gun rights argument - here's a couple of articles

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjABahUKEwjrpbu6krPIAhXIVRQKHQHhAGU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fbw%2Farticles%2F2012-12-27%2Fhow-often-do-we-use-guns-in-self-defense&usg=AFQjCNFLHQcokNf-9cpZNDGcUFkcaRDJWg

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/defensive-gun-use/

Myself, I think that statistically someone like Iceman is far less likely than he thinks to actually encounter violent crime within his home - however, paradoxically, the availability and usage of firearms makes the statistically unusual occurrences of such crimes more lethal than they would be in other nations - thus giving guys like Iceman plenty to worry about it.

Just on another point about amnesty not working - they certainly didn't think it was going to work in Australia, but is succeeded beyond their most optimistic estimations.

This is still the funniest take I've seen on a very grim subject

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOKWcH1zBl2kfnCwyyZWk5MW28lgaNa7L

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 08, 2015, 04:17:14 PM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 04:14:59 PM
i stand to be corrected but i think the father would have been within his rights to blow the heads off these f**kers.
the family would probably end up being even more traumatized from that though...

He would have, and I'd have no sympathy, but if they had guns too, or managed to wrestle it off him (there were 7 of them I think), what are the chances there'd have been at least some of the family killed?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 04:18:08 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/01/us/kentucky-accidential-shooting/ (http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/01/us/kentucky-accidential-shooting/)

2 years ago but still horrific.

The shooting that took the life of Caroline Sparks in southern Kentucky has been ruled an accident, Kentucky State Police Trooper Billy Gregory said.

A Kentucky mother stepped outside of her home just for a few minutes, but it was long enough for her 5-year-old son to accidentally shoot and kill his 2-year-old sister with the .22-caliber rifle he got for his birthday, state officials said.

"It's just one of those nightmares," he said, "a quick thing that happens when you turn your back."

Young children in the area are often introduced to guns at an early age, Gregory said.

"In this part of the country, it's not uncommon for a 5-year-old to have a gun or for a parent to pass one down to their kid," he said.

Her family kept the Crickett rifle in what they considered to be a safe spot, Cumberland County Coroner Gary White told the CNN affiliate.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 08, 2015, 04:33:01 PM
I've been through some crazy times in America, brought on by natural disasters. Hurricane Irene and hurricane Sandy, 1 mile from the water in NJ. We had no power, there was no food deliveries in to the shops, there was hardly any petrol. I've seen with my eyes what becomes of people when this happens. Lining up for petrol at the petrol station there were a few fist fights, after a week one man was shot.  People get desperate. No food, no petrol for transport or power for a generator, everything runs off of electricity. People go mad. These said mad people have guns.  That's the extreme end of the equation I know.
The other side is the burglary. I have secured windows and doors downstairs. There is no way to get to the upstairs windows unless they are ninjas. By the time someone gets in to the house I will have time to grab the gun - it's literally a 5 second grab and already loaded.  Again I see the chances of any of this happening to be very slim - but you never know.

I agree and take responsibility that I add to the statistics and in some way may increase the chance of accidents but I try hard to secure the weapon, make sure my kids understand what it is and I know how to use it properly.  My Mrs' Dad is a retired federal sergeant, her brother is a sergeant and SWAT team chief.  I've spent enough time with both of them to weigh up the risks.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 05:00:01 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 08, 2015, 04:33:01 PM
I've been through some crazy times in America, brought on by natural disasters. Hurricane Irene and hurricane Sandy, 1 mile from the water in NJ. We had no power, there was no food deliveries in to the shops, there was hardly any petrol. I've seen with my eyes what becomes of people when this happens. Lining up for petrol at the petrol station there were a few fist fights, after a week one man was shot.  People get desperate. No food, no petrol for transport or power for a generator, everything runs off of electricity. People go mad. These said mad people have guns.  That's the extreme end of the equation I know.
The other side is the burglary. I have secured windows and doors downstairs. There is no way to get to the upstairs windows unless they are ninjas. By the time someone gets in to the house I will have time to grab the gun - it's literally a 5 second grab and already loaded.  Again I see the chances of any of this happening to be very slim - but you never know.

I agree and take responsibility that I add to the statistics and in some way may increase the chance of accidents but I try hard to secure the weapon, make sure my kids understand what it is and I know how to use it properly.  My Mrs' Dad is a retired federal sergeant, her brother is a sergeant and SWAT team chief.  I've spent enough time with both of them to weigh up the risks.

Would taking the guns off them not make sense then?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 08, 2015, 05:23:31 PM
of course it would - but like I said we are passed the point of no return over here. How do you get the guns off them?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on October 08, 2015, 05:45:02 PM
i think the first move you make is to put an amnesty in place, i honestly think that you'd be surprised by the results. Remember that public opinion is consistently ahead of political parties on this issue, so I think whoever is doing the reforming needs to speak directly to the citizens.

It has to be one step at a time, a process of normalization. Pick the low hanging fruit first - background checks excluding convicted felons, people with a history of mental illness, domestic abusers. Then mandatory waiting periods, tighten up the second hand gun market and regulate gun fairs. I don't think the much trumpeted "law abiding gun owner" could have much of a problem with any of the above.

Above all, keep it out of the national political arena - as long as the NRA can fan fears of a possible 2nd Amendment repeal, then the Republicans will vote en bloc to stymie any gun control. Obama needs to exhaust the executive actions he can take, make sure that all existing federal laws are rigorously enforced, and then engage on a state by state basis, especially with Republican governors in states where mass shootings have occurred.

Saying that it won't change precludes all possibility of change. I don't think the Australian model is going to work for the US - the question is figuring out a US model that will.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 08, 2015, 06:22:58 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on October 08, 2015, 05:45:02 PM
i think the first move you make is to put an amnesty in place, i honestly think that you'd be surprised by the results. Remember that public opinion is consistently ahead of political parties on this issue, so I think whoever is doing the reforming needs to speak directly to the citizens.

It has to be one step at a time, a process of normalization. Pick the low hanging fruit first - background checks excluding convicted felons, people with a history of mental illness, domestic abusers. Then mandatory waiting periods, tighten up the second hand gun market and regulate gun fairs. I don't think the much trumpeted "law abiding gun owner" could have much of a problem with any of the above.

Above all, keep it out of the national political arena - as long as the NRA can fan fears of a possible 2nd Amendment repeal, then the Republicans will vote en bloc to stymie any gun control. Obama needs to exhaust the executive actions he can take, make sure that all existing federal laws are rigorously enforced, and then engage on a state by state basis, especially with Republican governors in states where mass shootings have occurred.

Saying that it won't change precludes all possibility of change. I don't think the Australian model is going to work for the US - the question is figuring out a US model that will.

The NRA are one of the strongest organizations on the planet, they have tremendous support across the country and they own the Politicans.

Guns will never be taken off the people, they wouldn't let it happen.

Amnesty sounds good but I know a fair few gun owners and they are never for letting their weapons go and site the constitution etc.

I have to laugh at that Dog Clinton, she say's she is going to get the guns off the streets but has no clue as how to go about it, she is as bad a Trump!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on October 08, 2015, 06:39:17 PM
the same sentiments were articulated in Australia Stew, but they were very surprised with the response. I don't think the two countries are directly comparable, but you'll never know until you try.

Perhaps the most depressing part of this for outsiders looking in is the almost nihilistic view of all participants - "cold dead hands" from the NRA et al and "they'll never give them up" from anyone else. That cycle has to be broken - it suits only the NRA and it completely ignores the fact that the general public are in favour of reform.

The first thing you could do is stress the point of an amnesty - it is voluntary. Steer all rhetoric away from repeal or any mention of seizures, small steps at first. I don't think an Australian"Big Bang" all at once approach will work.

BTW "that Dog Clinton??!!" What's that all about?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on October 08, 2015, 06:40:56 PM
As for for Clinton's gun credentials, her husband did pass the last major reform of the gun laws - The Brady Bill - though is has since lapsed, as far as I know?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 07:20:03 PM
Ben Carson: "I never saw a body with bullet holes that was more devastating than taking the right to arm ourselves away."

Mike Huckabee: "We have not so much a gun problem; we have a problem with sin and evil. This is an evil thing, when people kill another person."

Bobby Jindal: "This killer's father is now lecturing us on the need for gun control and he says he has no idea how or where his son got the guns... You know why he doesn't know? Because he is not, and has never been in his son's life. He's a complete failure as a father, he should be embarrassed to even show his face in public. He's the problem here."

Jeb Bush: "We're in a difficult time in our country, and I don't think more government is necessarily the answer to this. I think we need to re-connect ourselves with everybody else."

John Kasich: "You can strip all the guns away but the people who are going to commit crimes or have problems are always going to have the guns and more and more people feel like I'd like to be able to protect myself."

Hillary Clinton: "What is wrong with us, that we can't stand up to the NRA and the gun lobby, and the gun manufacturers they represent? You know, this is not just tragic. We don't just need to pray for people. We need to act, and we need to build a movement.

Bernie Sanders: "I don't know that anybody knows what the magic solution is. What we do know is the current solution is not tenable, it is clearly not working... You got a whole lot of states in this country where people want virtually no gun control at all. And if we are going to have some success, we are going to have to start talking to each other."

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JimStynes on October 08, 2015, 08:33:09 PM
Not reading back through the thread so can someone summarise it. Do people generally agree that America should have tighter gun controls or are there some people playing the 'We need more guns to protect ourselves' card?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 09, 2015, 12:48:08 AM
http://www.mass.gov/eohhs/docs/dph/injury-surveillance/violentdeaths/homicide-bulletin-2009.pdf


Theres are huge disparities in the homicide rate depending on Race, Geography and Economics.

In Massachusetts the homicide rate for a white person was 1.1 per 100,000.  (2005-2009)

Ireland homicide rate for calendar year 2012 was actually higher 1.2 per 100,000

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/rate-of-homicide-among-highest-in-europe-265006.html


Currently in Massachusetts there are 355,000 people who are legally permitted to own a firearm

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/04/20/gun-laws-tightened-mass-number-permits-spiked/KDbdE52Cvdf4xNfIL4r0hN/story.html

So the law abiding "gun mad yanks" in Massachusetts actually have a lower homicide rate than in Ireland where guns are effectively prohibited

(Most murders in the Africann American community occur in inner city no go areas where white people would and should never set foot in. So while tragic, these murders really have little bearing on the day to day danger faced by the greater population)






Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on October 09, 2015, 12:55:12 AM
http://smartgunlaws.org/massachusetts-state-law-summary/ (http://smartgunlaws.org/massachusetts-state-law-summary/)

http://smartgunlaws.org/category/state-private-sales-of-guns/page/2/ (http://smartgunlaws.org/category/state-private-sales-of-guns/page/2/)

MA has some of the more stringent gun laws (CA aside) in the USA, which makes it unsurprising at its lower levels of homocides (for white people  :o ).
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 09, 2015, 01:08:48 AM
Quote from: whitey on October 09, 2015, 12:48:08 AM
http://www.mass.gov/eohhs/docs/dph/injury-surveillance/violentdeaths/homicide-bulletin-2009.pdf


Theres are huge disparities in the homicide rate depending on Race, Geography and Economics.

In Massachusetts the homicide rate for a white person was 1.1 per 100,000.  (2005-2009)

Ireland homicide rate for calendar year 2012 was actually higher 1.2 per 100,000

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/rate-of-homicide-among-highest-in-europe-265006.html


Currently in Massachusetts there are 355,000 people who are legally permitted to own a firearm

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/04/20/gun-laws-tightened-mass-number-permits-spiked/KDbdE52Cvdf4xNfIL4r0hN/story.html

So the law abiding "gun mad yanks" in Massachusetts actually have a lower homicide rate than in Ireland where guns are effectively prohibited

(Most murders in the Africann American community occur in inner city no go areas where white people would and should never set foot in. So while tragic, these murders really have little bearing on the day to day danger faced by the greater population)

Remember Children, Mass is a very liberal State, card carrying republicans they are not!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 09, 2015, 01:23:10 AM
Quote from: stew on October 09, 2015, 01:08:48 AM
Quote from: whitey on October 09, 2015, 12:48:08 AM
http://www.mass.gov/eohhs/docs/dph/injury-surveillance/violentdeaths/homicide-bulletin-2009.pdf


Theres are huge disparities in the homicide rate depending on Race, Geography and Economics.

In Massachusetts the homicide rate for a white person was 1.1 per 100,000.  (2005-2009)

Ireland homicide rate for calendar year 2012 was actually higher 1.2 per 100,000

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/rate-of-homicide-among-highest-in-europe-265006.html


Currently in Massachusetts there are 355,000 people who are legally permitted to own a firearm

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/04/20/gun-laws-tightened-mass-number-permits-spiked/KDbdE52Cvdf4xNfIL4r0hN/story.html

So the law abiding "gun mad yanks" in Massachusetts actually have a lower homicide rate than in Ireland where guns are effectively prohibited

(Most murders in the Africann American community occur in inner city no go areas where white people would and should never set foot in. So while tragic, these murders really have little bearing on the day to day danger faced by the greater population)

Remember Children, Mass is a very liberal State, card carrying republicans they are not!

I'd hazard a guess that the majority of permit holders are Republicans....at least most of the permit holders I know are.

And last November MA elected a Republican governor.....so while still overwhelmingly Blue.....there are tons of Republicans and Independents here

http://ivn.us/2014/10/30/how-mass-republican-charlie-baker-is-winning-with-independent-voters/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 09, 2015, 07:57:50 AM
Quote from: JimStynes on October 08, 2015, 08:33:09 PM
Not reading back through the thread so can someone summarise it. Do people generally agree that America should have tighter gun controls or are there some people playing the 'We need more guns to protect ourselves' card?

Everyone pretty much agrees that there is too many guns but how to get them off the streets is the discussion.

Iceman keeps one under the pillow, used to run with a dodgy crowd and would hand you yer arse in the Octagon.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on October 09, 2015, 10:09:39 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 03:43:14 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 08, 2015, 03:01:21 PM
I find this hard to reconcile at times. I'm vehemently anti guns. I don't think anyone should have a gun. However, if I lived in the US with my wife and two girls I think I'd have a gun.

I don't understand this. Why? I lived over through for nearly a year, and getting a gun never entered into my thinking.

A whole year? Wow.

Do you have kids? My thoughts might seem extreme but when it comes to my kids I tend to err very much on the side of caution and make no apologies for it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on October 09, 2015, 10:13:11 AM
I like the amnesty idea. I'd propose the following:

Amnesty period where any/all guns must be registered. Unregistered guns found after amnesty = minimum 20 years in jail. If you don't register your gun you are basically admitting you're up to no good so jail them before they kill someone.

Then I'd try to cut off the supply.

Guns have no place in society, especially when they make people like me think mental thoughts like I've mentioned above.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 09, 2015, 10:40:34 AM
I find this concept of defending the right to an arsenal, because of the risk of corrupt government, to be complete insanity.

One man's corruption is another man's living. That is not to defend corruption, just to point out that it is rarely easily defined or absolute.

No matter how bad the politicians in the US might be, they can be voted out, unlike for example Putin. Part of democracy is the stupidity of the electorate. But they have a right right to be stupid and vote as they wish. Allowing these people the right to stock up on weapons just in case they are unhappy with their politicians, is madness in my opinion.

Another aspect that got me thinking was the plethora of brilliant, but violent ,TV series we all watch from the US. For us in Ireland they are fantasy. But if you watched, for example, The Killing and lived in Seattle, or Dexter and lived in Miami, or Breaking Bad and lived in Albuquerque, the violence might look far more real, as in closer to home and affect the more impressionable. Is this a possible cause of 'the fear' that others have referred to above?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 09, 2015, 03:32:52 PM
what if you watched Love/hate and lived in Dublin?

I think the Amnesty to register guns is a great idea. Harsh penalties would help too.  The thing to consider though is local law enforcement on a state by state basis. Some would choose not to enforce.
Like in California they very lenient towards illegal immigrants. Any illegals who are arrested on petty crimes or misdemeanors should be deported, but they are not, the CA police choose not to enforce it.  I wonder how they would get the state by state police to enforce such laws. I know a lot of cops and they have a load of guns themselves - probably one they should never have.

Muppet you are right - the whole corrupt government thing is crazy. But these are the cards you have to deal with. Pointing out they are shit doesn't win the hand.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 09, 2015, 03:49:48 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are bastards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 09, 2015, 03:54:46 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 09, 2015, 10:09:39 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 03:43:14 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 08, 2015, 03:01:21 PM
I find this hard to reconcile at times. I'm vehemently anti guns. I don't think anyone should have a gun. However, if I lived in the US with my wife and two girls I think I'd have a gun.

I don't understand this. Why? I lived over through for nearly a year, and getting a gun never entered into my thinking.

A whole year? Wow.

Do you have kids? My thoughts might seem extreme but when it comes to my kids I tend to err very much on the side of caution and make no apologies for it.

no need to be a smart hole

Yes I have kids and wouldn't entertain the notion of having a gun, either here or anywhere for that matter. You say you are anti-guns, why would you have one if you lived state side?  Makes zero sense to me
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on October 09, 2015, 03:54:46 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 09, 2015, 10:09:39 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 03:43:14 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 08, 2015, 03:01:21 PM
I find this hard to reconcile at times. I'm vehemently anti guns. I don't think anyone should have a gun. However, if I lived in the US with my wife and two girls I think I'd have a gun.

I don't understand this. Why? I lived over through for nearly a year, and getting a gun never entered into my thinking.

A whole year? Wow.

Do you have kids? My thoughts might seem extreme but when it comes to my kids I tend to err very much on the side of caution and make no apologies for it.

Surely that's even more reason not to have a gun in the house?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 09, 2015, 03:58:23 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 09, 2015, 03:54:46 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 09, 2015, 10:09:39 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 03:43:14 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 08, 2015, 03:01:21 PM
I find this hard to reconcile at times. I'm vehemently anti guns. I don't think anyone should have a gun. However, if I lived in the US with my wife and two girls I think I'd have a gun.

I don't understand this. Why? I lived over through for nearly a year, and getting a gun never entered into my thinking.

A whole year? Wow.

Do you have kids? My thoughts might seem extreme but when it comes to my kids I tend to err very much on the side of caution and make no apologies for it.

Surely that's even more reason not to have a gun in the house?

this is what I cannot get my head around. Someone breaks into my house the last thing I'd want to do is start a gun fight in a confined space with the children about.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 09, 2015, 04:29:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 09, 2015, 03:49:48 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 11, 2015, 02:10:19 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 09, 2015, 03:32:52 PM
what if you watched Love/hate and lived in Dublin?

I think the Amnesty to register guns is a great idea. Harsh penalties would help too.  The thing to consider though is local law enforcement on a state by state basis. Some would choose not to enforce.
Like in California they very lenient towards illegal immigrants. Any illegals who are arrested on petty crimes or misdemeanors should be deported, but they are not, the CA police choose not to enforce it.  I wonder how they would get the state by state police to enforce such laws. I know a lot of cops and they have a load of guns themselves - probably one they should never have.

Muppet you are right - the whole corrupt government thing is crazy. But these are the cards you have to deal with. Pointing out they are shit doesn't win the hand.

Yes that might be the start of something in Ireland. But it was just one programme. It would be impossible to put a figure on who might be affected by that type of programme, but if there were more programmes, based say in Belfast, Cork, Galway etc, it would reinforce the impression, especially for the impressionable.

I spent 5/6 weeks in a small city in the US years ago. It was a bit of a backwater, but the people were nice and it seemed very quiet. That was my impression, until I decided to pick up a local paper and discovered it was then the murder capital of the USA, at least according to the paper. It changed my perception of the place dramatically, but how do I reconcile that with not having seen anything remotely threatening? I was better off in ignorance.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 11, 2015, 02:50:17 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 09, 2015, 04:29:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 09, 2015, 03:49:48 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 11, 2015, 02:55:41 PM
Quote from: stew on October 11, 2015, 02:50:17 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 09, 2015, 04:29:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 09, 2015, 03:49:48 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)

Grand. A school shooting every couple of months it is then.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 12, 2015, 04:35:02 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 11, 2015, 02:55:41 PM
Quote from: stew on October 11, 2015, 02:50:17 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 09, 2015, 04:29:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 09, 2015, 03:49:48 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)

Grand. A school shooting every couple of months it is then.

Don't shoot the messenger muppet, I did not say I agreed with it!

Below is a quote at the school were 9 innocent people died recently.



The college interim president said she would not support armed security because the campus was a place of beauty, serenity and love. Where the f#ck do these assholes come from?

There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus, the NRA are using this liberal kind of shite to make their argument and I can understand why.

One last thing, if I lived in London I would vote labor, I despise the NRA and in no way endorse the use of guns, in this case, I would have given yer man the green light to go kill the athiest asshole who destroyed 9 people.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 12, 2015, 05:15:04 PM
Quote from: stew on October 12, 2015, 04:35:02 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 11, 2015, 02:55:41 PM
Quote from: stew on October 11, 2015, 02:50:17 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 09, 2015, 04:29:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 09, 2015, 03:49:48 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)

Grand. A school shooting every couple of months it is then.

Don't shoot the messenger muppet, I did not say I agreed with it!

Below is a quote at the school were 9 innocent people died recently.



The college interim president said she would not support armed security because the campus was a place of beauty, serenity and love. Where the f#ck do these assholes come from?

There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus, the NRA are using this liberal kind of shite to make their argument and I can understand why.

One last thing, if I lived in London I would vote labor, I despise the NRA and in no way endorse the use of guns, in this case, I would have given yer man the green light to go kill the athiest asshole who destroyed 9 people.

If 'yer man' had shot kids accidentally while trying to 'kill the atheist asshole', would you take responsibility if you were a staff member?

This type of NRA discourse is complete lunacy. LOOK OVER THERE! A GOOD GUY WITH A GUN. WE NEED HIM TO KILL THE BAD GUY WITH A GUN.

Guns are the problem, as are the people who insist on inserting them into as many facets of society as possible. I agree with the college interim president. More gun-toting nut jobs is not the solution.

Here is a question for you Stew. Considering what happened on 911, why doesn't the USA allow every passenger and crew member to pack heat on board every flight? Y'know, so there will be more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 12, 2015, 07:19:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 12, 2015, 05:15:04 PM
Quote from: stew on October 12, 2015, 04:35:02 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 11, 2015, 02:55:41 PM
Quote from: stew on October 11, 2015, 02:50:17 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 09, 2015, 04:29:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 09, 2015, 03:49:48 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)

Grand. A school shooting every couple of months it is then.

Don't shoot the messenger muppet, I did not say I agreed with it!

Below is a quote at the school were 9 innocent people died recently.



The college interim president said she would not support armed security because the campus was a place of beauty, serenity and love. Where the f#ck do these assholes come from?

There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus, the NRA are using this liberal kind of shite to make their argument and I can understand why.

One last thing, if I lived in London I would vote labor, I despise the NRA and in no way endorse the use of guns, in this case, I would have given yer man the green light to go kill the athiest asshole who destroyed 9 people.

If 'yer man' had shot kids accidentally while trying to 'kill the atheist asshole', would you take responsibility if you were a staff member?

This type of NRA discourse is complete lunacy. LOOK OVER THERE! A GOOD GUY WITH A GUN. WE NEED HIM TO KILL THE BAD GUY WITH A GUN.

Guns are the problem, as are the people who insist on inserting them into as many facets of society as possible. I agree with the college interim president. More gun-toting nut jobs is not the solution.

Here is a question for you Stew. Considering what happened on 911, why doesn't the USA allow every passenger and crew member to pack heat on board every flight? Y'know, so there will be more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns?

Well muppet I think they should have thrown f**king flowers at him as he shot innocent kids dead! :-X

You seem fine with the way it was handled, well except for the terrible and inhumane the police dealt with the crisis!


I will make this easier for you muppet, it is perfectly legal to kill  stone dead a **** that is shooting children with your legally held, concealed weapon.

What is not ok is to sit on your hands and do f**k all!


Of course I would want him to kill the f**ker with his gun, the man was a 4 year veteran and knows how to use his gun, I seriously doubt he would have taken down a student.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 12, 2015, 07:25:34 PM
Quote from: stew on October 12, 2015, 07:19:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 12, 2015, 05:15:04 PM
Quote from: stew on October 12, 2015, 04:35:02 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 11, 2015, 02:55:41 PM
Quote from: stew on October 11, 2015, 02:50:17 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 09, 2015, 04:29:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 09, 2015, 03:49:48 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)

Grand. A school shooting every couple of months it is then.

Don't shoot the messenger muppet, I did not say I agreed with it!

Below is a quote at the school were 9 innocent people died recently.



The college interim president said she would not support armed security because the campus was a place of beauty, serenity and love. Where the f#ck do these assholes come from?

There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus, the NRA are using this liberal kind of shite to make their argument and I can understand why.

One last thing, if I lived in London I would vote labor, I despise the NRA and in no way endorse the use of guns, in this case, I would have given yer man the green light to go kill the athiest asshole who destroyed 9 people.

If 'yer man' had shot kids accidentally while trying to 'kill the atheist asshole', would you take responsibility if you were a staff member?

This type of NRA discourse is complete lunacy. LOOK OVER THERE! A GOOD GUY WITH A GUN. WE NEED HIM TO KILL THE BAD GUY WITH A GUN.

Guns are the problem, as are the people who insist on inserting them into as many facets of society as possible. I agree with the college interim president. More gun-toting nut jobs is not the solution.

Here is a question for you Stew. Considering what happened on 911, why doesn't the USA allow every passenger and crew member to pack heat on board every flight? Y'know, so there will be more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns?

Well muppet I think they should have thrown f**king flowers at him as he shot innocent kids dead! :-X

You seem fine with the way it was handled, well except for the terrible and inhumane the police dealt with the crisis!


I will make this easier for you muppet, it is perfectly legal to kill  stone dead a **** that is shooting children with your legally held, concealed weapon.

What is not ok is to sit on your hands and do f**k all!


Of course I would want him to kill the f**ker with his gun, the man was a 4 year veteran and knows how to use his gun, I seriously doubt he would have taken down a student.

I got ya muppet, when he starts a shootin you can ask him to please stop, that the school is an area of peace, serenity and love, yep, that will get the job done, the mind boggles!


As for your question about guns on planes, therin lies the hypocrisy in government.

I have one for you, so you are at the school and the **** starts asking who the Christians are, then starts shooting people, and you are two hundreds yards away with a legally held gun, do you go take him down or would you be sipping tea with the stupid bitch that  you agree with that the campus is an area of peace, serenity and lurve?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 12, 2015, 07:32:09 PM
Quote from: stew on October 12, 2015, 07:19:36 PM

Of course I would want him to kill the f**ker with his gun, the man was a 4 year veteran and knows how to use his gun, I seriously doubt he would have taken down a student.

the problem with that is the next vigilante that comes in to shoot up the bad guy might not be a 4 year veteran!!!!

anyway, you fellas are going off on a big tangent. as mentioned above, the NRA own most of the politicians and pump in a lot of money. there will be no amnesty, but they CAN do SOMETHING!! the problem is they are doing f**k all!!
america is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. money will always come first, before school kids, before soldiers before everything.
but they need to do something!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 12, 2015, 07:35:31 PM
Quote from: stew on October 12, 2015, 07:25:34 PM
Quote from: stew on October 12, 2015, 07:19:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 12, 2015, 05:15:04 PM
Quote from: stew on October 12, 2015, 04:35:02 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 11, 2015, 02:55:41 PM
Quote from: stew on October 11, 2015, 02:50:17 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 09, 2015, 04:29:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 09, 2015, 03:49:48 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)

Grand. A school shooting every couple of months it is then.

Don't shoot the messenger muppet, I did not say I agreed with it!

Below is a quote at the school were 9 innocent people died recently.



The college interim president said she would not support armed security because the campus was a place of beauty, serenity and love. Where the f#ck do these assholes come from?

There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus, the NRA are using this liberal kind of shite to make their argument and I can understand why.

One last thing, if I lived in London I would vote labor, I despise the NRA and in no way endorse the use of guns, in this case, I would have given yer man the green light to go kill the athiest asshole who destroyed 9 people.

If 'yer man' had shot kids accidentally while trying to 'kill the atheist asshole', would you take responsibility if you were a staff member?

This type of NRA discourse is complete lunacy. LOOK OVER THERE! A GOOD GUY WITH A GUN. WE NEED HIM TO KILL THE BAD GUY WITH A GUN.

Guns are the problem, as are the people who insist on inserting them into as many facets of society as possible. I agree with the college interim president. More gun-toting nut jobs is not the solution.

Here is a question for you Stew. Considering what happened on 911, why doesn't the USA allow every passenger and crew member to pack heat on board every flight? Y'know, so there will be more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns?

Well muppet I think they should have thrown f**king flowers at him as he shot innocent kids dead! :-X

You seem fine with the way it was handled, well except for the terrible and inhumane the police dealt with the crisis!


I will make this easier for you muppet, it is perfectly legal to kill  stone dead a **** that is shooting children with your legally held, concealed weapon.

What is not ok is to sit on your hands and do f**k all!


Of course I would want him to kill the f**ker with his gun, the man was a 4 year veteran and knows how to use his gun, I seriously doubt he would have taken down a student.

I got ya muppet, when he starts a shootin you can ask him to please stop, that the school is an area of peace, serenity and love, yep, that will get the job done, the mind boggles!


As for your question about guns on planes, therin lies the hypocrisy in government.

I have one for you, so you are at the school and the **** starts asking who the Christians are, then starts shooting people, and you are two hundreds yards away with a legally held gun, do you go take him down or would you be sipping tea with the stupid bitch that  you agree with that the campus is an area of peace, serenity and lurve?

Let me get this right, after a shooting, and the shooter is dead, you line up all the survivors, search them for weapons and treat them as suspects. But when the shooting is going on, you grab the first person that has a gun, you know absolutely nothing about the guy, his past, his criminal record, his sanity, and tell him to go in to the school and start shooting!

Ya you got me alright.

Completely bonkers.

As for the planes 'hypocrisy in government', do I have this right? Are you for arming all the passengers on every flight? Or are you against ordinary people carrying guns everywhere? I don't understand your point on that one.

As for your analogy. It will never happen. I will never be in public carrying a gun, far less be 200 years from a school with a deadly weapon. I am different to you, in that I don't actually believe I am an undiscovered John Wayne.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 12, 2015, 08:28:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 12, 2015, 07:35:31 PM
Quote from: stew on October 12, 2015, 07:25:34 PM
Quote from: stew on October 12, 2015, 07:19:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 12, 2015, 05:15:04 PM
Quote from: stew on October 12, 2015, 04:35:02 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 11, 2015, 02:55:41 PM
Quote from: stew on October 11, 2015, 02:50:17 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 09, 2015, 04:29:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 09, 2015, 03:49:48 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)

Grand. A school shooting every couple of months it is then.

Don't shoot the messenger muppet, I did not say I agreed with it!

Below is a quote at the school were 9 innocent people died recently.



The college interim president said she would not support armed security because the campus was a place of beauty, serenity and love. Where the f#ck do these assholes come from?

There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus, the NRA are using this liberal kind of shite to make their argument and I can understand why.

One last thing, if I lived in London I would vote labor, I despise the NRA and in no way endorse the use of guns, in this case, I would have given yer man the green light to go kill the athiest asshole who destroyed 9 people.

If 'yer man' had shot kids accidentally while trying to 'kill the atheist asshole', would you take responsibility if you were a staff member?

This type of NRA discourse is complete lunacy. LOOK OVER THERE! A GOOD GUY WITH A GUN. WE NEED HIM TO KILL THE BAD GUY WITH A GUN.

Guns are the problem, as are the people who insist on inserting them into as many facets of society as possible. I agree with the college interim president. More gun-toting nut jobs is not the solution.

Here is a question for you Stew. Considering what happened on 911, why doesn't the USA allow every passenger and crew member to pack heat on board every flight? Y'know, so there will be more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns?

Well muppet I think they should have thrown f**king flowers at him as he shot innocent kids dead! :-X

You seem fine with the way it was handled, well except for the terrible and inhumane the police dealt with the crisis!


I will make this easier for you muppet, it is perfectly legal to kill  stone dead a **** that is shooting children with your legally held, concealed weapon.

What is not ok is to sit on your hands and do f**k all!


Of course I would want him to kill the f**ker with his gun, the man was a 4 year veteran and knows how to use his gun, I seriously doubt he would have taken down a student.

I got ya muppet, when he starts a shootin you can ask him to please stop, that the school is an area of peace, serenity and love, yep, that will get the job done, the mind boggles!


As for your question about guns on planes, therin lies the hypocrisy in government.

I have one for you, so you are at the school and the **** starts asking who the Christians are, then starts shooting people, and you are two hundreds yards away with a legally held gun, do you go take him down or would you be sipping tea with the stupid bitch that  you agree with that the campus is an area of peace, serenity and lurve?

Let me get this right, after a shooting, and the shooter is dead, you line up all the survivors, search them for weapons and treat them as suspects. But when the shooting is going on, you grab the first person that has a gun, you know absolutely nothing about the guy, his past, his criminal record, his sanity, and tell him to go in to the school and start shooting!

Ya you got me alright.

Completely bonkers.

As for the planes 'hypocrisy in government', do I have this right? Are you for arming all the passengers on every flight? Or are you against ordinary people carrying guns everywhere? I don't understand your point on that one.

As for your analogy. It will never happen. I will never be in public carrying a gun, far less be 200 years from a school with a deadly weapon. I am different to you, in that I don't actually believe I am an undiscovered John Wayne.

I don't make the rules, neither do the cops muppet, they are trained to handle mass shootings this way after they take the hoor down, not their fault, blame the bureaucrats!

I don't think I am an undiscovered John Wayne? I want nothing to do with guns but I have you figured out, you don't take the time to read what was written, your man with the gun wanted to go help but the faculty members would not let him, he was licensed to carry the weapon and he may well have saved lives! He knew the faculty members so they were hardly strangers.muppet,

Answer me this muppet, if you heard shots going off in a school who would you call, who would come to the scene and who would take care of the situation?

You method of doing nothing solves nothing, it just leads to more deaths and heartbroken families, but you, you know, keep talking about peace, serenity and lurve! I am sure the madman will simply give up and say sorry!!! Fcuk sake!


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 12, 2015, 08:46:43 PM
Quote from: stew on October 12, 2015, 08:28:34 PM
I don't make the rules, neither do the cops muppet, they are trained to handle mass sootings this way after they take the hoor down, not their fault, blame the bureaucrats!

I don't think I am an undiscovered John Wayne? I want nothing to do with guns but I have you figured out, you don't take the time to read what was written, your man with the gun wanted to go help but the faculty members would not let him, he was licensed to carry the weapon and he may well have saved lives! He knew the faculty members so they were hardly strangers.muppet,

Answer me this muppet, if you heard shots going off in a school who would you call, who would come to the scene and who would take care of the situation?

You method of doing nothing solves nothing, it just leads to more deaths and heartbroken families, but you, you know, keep talking about peace, serenity and lurve! I am sure the madman will simply give up and say sorry!!! Fcuk sake!

Are you serious? Anyone remotely sane person would call the police. You seem to have different ideas.

Then you accuse me of not reading something or other, of course you didn't provide a link.

So I went looking. I found links to right wing lunatic sites with their version of the story. But if you have a proper respectable source please post it.

Now this is the interesting bit. Apparently this Vet was in a GUN FREE ZONE, with a gun. He was on campus, in a zone where guns are prohibited, and you wanted to send him in shooting?

This was your hero?

Scrap John Wayne, we are now into Dirty Harry territory, a man who plays by his own rules, kinda like the killer doncha think?


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on October 12, 2015, 08:50:11 PM
I don't think relying on members of the public with concealed arms are the way forward. The guy in question may well have been a veteran, but I don't think that qualifies him to help in a situation like this - it's very much in the balance whether he could have a. killed the perp b. got himself killed or c. got a student/s killed.

That said, a lot of the police tactics that are used now are a result of the Columbine shooting. There the police followed the handbook, set a perimeter and did not enter the school until after Harris and Klebold had finished their spree. Interestingly (well morbidly interesting) a lot of the damage is done in the initial exchanges - if a killer is unchallenged, he tends to fall into a lull himself, which happened in Columbine.

Now the police are trained not to set a perimeter, to confront the shooter as soon as possible, even at the expense of evacuating or rescuing victims.

But they are the police, they are trained specifically and I'm sure they wouldn't want another guy with a gun added to the situation.

Seems to me the only solution is to reduce access to guns, especially automatics and semi automatics, because no matter how many "good guys with guns" - most stupid f%$king phrase ever, btw - a pyscho could have wiped out an entire class in seconds.

As for peace, serenity and love, that is a fine aspiration to have for a place of learning. What is the point of being free, when you have to live and work in a prison? It's an amazing country when the freedom to carry a gun is considered to be more important than the freedom to not have a gun pointed at you on a regular basis.

If a pyschopath has any aims beyond his own gratification, then guaranteeing their immortality through destroying a system might be one. Militarizing schools and teachers is a far more bizarre response than wishing that you worked in a place of serenity and love - and it is exactly the fearful response a pyschopath craves.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 12, 2015, 09:25:53 PM
Quote from: stew on October 12, 2015, 08:28:34 PM
you don't take the time to read what was written

Lol.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 12, 2015, 10:04:07 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 12, 2015, 08:46:43 PM
Quote from: stew on October 12, 2015, 08:28:34 PM
I don't make the rules, neither do the cops muppet, they are trained to handle mass sootings this way after they take the hoor down, not their fault, blame the bureaucrats!

I don't think I am an undiscovered John Wayne? I want nothing to do with guns but I have you figured out, you don't take the time to read what was written, your man with the gun wanted to go help but the faculty members would not let him, he was licensed to carry the weapon and he may well have saved lives! He knew the faculty members so they were hardly strangers.muppet,

Answer me this muppet, if you heard shots going off in a school who would you call, who would come to the scene and who would take care of the situation?

You method of doing nothing solves nothing, it just leads to more deaths and heartbroken families, but you, you know, keep talking about peace, serenity and lurve! I am sure the madman will simply give up and say sorry!!! Fcuk sake!

Are you serious? Anyone remotely sane person would call the police. You seem to have different ideas.

Then you accuse me of not reading something or other, of course you didn't provide a link.

So I went looking. I found links to right wing lunatic sites with their version of the story. But if you have a proper respectable source please post it.

Now this is the interesting bit. Apparently this Vet was in a GUN FREE ZONE, with a gun. He was on campus, in a zone where guns are prohibited, and you wanted to send him in shooting?

This was your hero?

Scrap John Wayne, we are now into Dirty Harry territory, a man who plays by his own rules, kinda like the killer doncha think?

No I don't think muppet, you seem to be star struck, do you love Hollywood stars muppet?

You are a hypocrite muppet, out of one corner of your mouth you say you would call the cops, out of the other corner of your mouth you denounce the very cops you would call on the way they do their jobs! Hypocritical but typical.

I did not say I would send him in? Where did I say I would send him in and who the fack am I to send anyone in shooting anywhere?

I would not have had a problem if he had went in and shot the **** dead, better him trying at least to kill the f**ker than waiting for the peelers to come after nine lie dead don't you think?

It is a moot point as he did feck all and if he broke the law pertaining to the area being a gun free zone he should have to face charges.

As for you, you have yourself backed into a corner on the issue of the cops and you don't have it in you to admit you are wrong! If you cannot get it through your skull that they are doing what they are taught to do in these situations no one can help you.

I know, you and that interim lady should retrain the police and really, really make sure they know that all they need to do their jobs are peace, love and serenity! ::)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 12, 2015, 11:36:44 PM
Stew here is our man being interviewed: http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings (http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings)

Here is the interview on NBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo)

"Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved," he told MSNBC. "We were quite a distance away from the actual building where it was happening, which could have opened us up to being potential targets ourselves. And, you know, not knowing where SWAT was on their response time, they wouldn't know who we were, and if we had our guns ready to shoot, they'd think we were the bad guys."

There is some debate regarding his own weapon. He was breaking college rules. He cites the constitution and Oregon Law to defend himself. I'll have to leave that to the locals to see how far over the line he was. I'd suggest that going after him would be counter-productive as the NRA would make a martyr of him. And an anti-Christ of the campus staff and their bosses.

But that isn't the point.

He said: "Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved".

And you accuse me of not bothering to read the story that you didn't bother to provide a link to?

Now back to the cops. Again and again I have pointed out that my issue is with the strategy, as directed by the bosses. The cops on the ground just follow orders. Again and again you ignore that. But then looking at the videos above, you cherry pick what you like and disregard the rest. So you probably aren't reading this bit anyway and I bet you started typing you reply before you got past the videos. Did you know that all of the Armagh team and management have come out of the closet? And Fearon as well?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on October 13, 2015, 08:05:23 AM
When May I Shoot a Student?

By GREG HAMPIKIANFEB. 27, 2014

BOISE, Idaho — TO the chief counsel of the Idaho State Legislature:

In light of the bill permitting guns on our state's college and university campuses, which is likely to be approved by the state House of Representatives in the coming days, I have a matter of practical concern that I hope you can help with: When may I shoot a student?

I am a biology professor, not a lawyer, and I had never considered bringing a gun to work until now. But since many of my students are likely to be armed, I thought it would be a good idea to even the playing field.

I have had encounters with disgruntled students over the years, some of whom seemed quite upset, but I always assumed that when they reached into their backpacks they were going for a pencil. Since I carry a pen to lecture, I did not feel outgunned; and because there are no working sharpeners in the lecture hall, the most they could get off is a single point. But now that we'll all be packing heat, I would like legal instruction in the rules of classroom engagement.

At present, the harshest penalty available here at Boise State is expulsion, used only for the most heinous crimes, like cheating on Scantron exams. But now that lethal force is an option, I need to know which infractions may be treated as de facto capital crimes.

I assume that if a student shoots first, I am allowed to empty my clip; but given the velocity of firearms, and my aging reflexes, I'd like to be proactive. For example, if I am working out a long equation on the board and several students try to correct me using their laser sights, am I allowed to fire a warning shot?

If two armed students are arguing over who should be served next at the coffee bar and I sense escalating hostility, should I aim for the legs and remind them of the campus Shared-Values Statement (which reads, in part, "Boise State strives to provide a culture of civility and success where all feel safe and free from discrimination, harassment, threats or intimidation")?

While our city police chief has expressed grave concerns about allowing guns on campus, I would point out that he already has one. I'm glad that you were not intimidated by him, and did not allow him to speak at the public hearing on the bill (though I really enjoyed the 40 minutes you gave to the National Rifle Association spokesman).

Knee-jerk reactions from law enforcement officials and university presidents are best set aside. Ignore, for example, the lame argument that some drunken frat boys will fire their weapons in violation of best practices. This view is based on stereotypical depictions of drunken frat boys, a group whose dignity no one seems willing to defend.

The problem, of course, is not that drunken frat boys will be armed; it is that they are drunken frat boys. Arming them is clearly not the issue. They would cause damage with or without guns. I would point out that urinating against a building or firing a few rounds into a sorority house are both violations of the same honor code.

In terms of the campus murder rate — zero at present — I think that we can all agree that guns don't kill people, people with guns do. Which is why encouraging guns on campus makes so much sense. Bad guys go where there are no guns, so by adding guns to campus more bad guys will spend their year abroad in London. Britain has incredibly restrictive laws — their cops don't even have guns! — and gun deaths there are a tiny fraction of what they are in America. It's a perfect place for bad guys.

Some of my colleagues are concerned that you are encouraging firearms within a densely packed concentration of young people who are away from home for the first time, and are coincidentally the age associated with alcohol and drug experimentation, and the commission of felonies.

Once again, this reflects outdated thinking about students. My current students have grown up learning responsible weapon use through virtual training available on the Xbox and PlayStation. Far from being enamored of violence, many studies have shown, they are numb to it. These creative young minds will certainly be stimulated by access to more technology at the university, items like autoloaders, silencers and hollow points. I am sure that it has not escaped your attention that the library would make an excellent shooting range, and the bookstore could do with fewer books and more ammo choices.

I want to applaud the Legislature's courage. On a final note: I hope its members will consider my amendment for bulletproof office windows and faculty body armor in Boise State blue and orange.

Greg Hampikian is a professor of biology and criminal justice at Boise State University and a co-author of "Exit to Freedom."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 09:11:23 AM
This really is a return to The Wild West: "In light of the bill permitting guns on our state's college and university campuses, which is likely to be approved by the state House of Representatives in the coming days".

Will the guns be allowed in the Churches, Chapels and Mosques? If they are on campus I guess people will now have a RIGHT to bring their guns into the various religious houses.

The nut jobs won't even have to plan getting their weapons past any security anymore.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnneycool on October 13, 2015, 09:40:05 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 09:11:23 AM
This really is a return to The Wild West: "In light of the bill permitting guns on our state's college and university campuses, which is likely to be approved by the state House of Representatives in the coming days".

Will the guns be allowed in the Churches, Chapels and Mosques? If they are on campus I guess people will now have a RIGHT to bring their guns into the various religious houses.

The nut jobs won't even have to plan getting their weapons past any security anymore.

f**k that, every tourist, illegal immigrant and whoever should be handed a gun at the airports or border crossings in case they run into a madman at Disney or a six flags!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 10:17:15 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on October 13, 2015, 09:40:05 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 09:11:23 AM
This really is a return to The Wild West: "In light of the bill permitting guns on our state's college and university campuses, which is likely to be approved by the state House of Representatives in the coming days".

Will the guns be allowed in the Churches, Chapels and Mosques? If they are on campus I guess people will now have a RIGHT to bring their guns into the various religious houses.

The nut jobs won't even have to plan getting their weapons past any security anymore.

f**k that, every tourist, illegal immigrant and whoever should be handed a gun at the airports or border crossings in case they run into a madman at Disney or a six flags!

I think everyone that sets foot in every legislature, especially Capitol Hill, should be heavily armed. All tourists, politicians, lobbyists, cranks and protestors. Just in case.

Everyone at mass should be checked and banned from entry, unless they are carrying. Instead of 'peace be with you', people should be head to say, 'I'm carrying a piece' or maybe 'go ahead, make my day'.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 10:19:57 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34507760 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34507760)

Texas students are planning to hang sex toys from their bags in protest at a law allowing people to carry concealed weapons on university campuses.
"You're carrying a gun to class? Yeah well I'm carrying a HUGE DILDO," Jessica Jin, organiser of Campus (DILDO) Carry, wrote on Facebook.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 01:23:03 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 12, 2015, 11:36:44 PM
Stew here is our man being interviewed: http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings (http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings)

Here is the interview on NBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo)

"Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved," he told MSNBC. "We were quite a distance away from the actual building where it was happening, which could have opened us up to being potential targets ourselves. And, you know, not knowing where SWAT was on their response time, they wouldn't know who we were, and if we had our guns ready to shoot, they'd think we were the bad guys."

There is some debate regarding his own weapon. He was breaking college rules. He cites the constitution and Oregon Law to defend himself. I'll have to leave that to the locals to see how far over the line he was. I'd suggest that going after him would be counter-productive as the NRA would make a martyr of him. And an anti-Christ of the campus staff and their bosses.

But that isn't the point.

He said: "Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved".

And you accuse me of not bothering to read the story that you didn't bother to provide a link to?

Now back to the cops. Again and again I have pointed out that my issue is with the strategy, as directed by the bosses. The cops on the ground just follow orders. Again and again you ignore that. But then looking at the videos above, you cherry pick what you like and disregard the rest. So you probably aren't reading this bit anyway and I bet you started typing you reply before you got past the videos. Did you know that all of the Armagh team and management have come out of the closet? And Fearon as well?

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.

You call the peelers when it suits you and you condemn the way they would handle  your issue, hypocritical.

Good for them and Tony! Who cares?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 01:48:02 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 01:23:03 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 12, 2015, 11:36:44 PM
Stew here is our man being interviewed: http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings (http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings)

Here is the interview on NBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo)

"Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved," he told MSNBC. "We were quite a distance away from the actual building where it was happening, which could have opened us up to being potential targets ourselves. And, you know, not knowing where SWAT was on their response time, they wouldn't know who we were, and if we had our guns ready to shoot, they'd think we were the bad guys."

There is some debate regarding his own weapon. He was breaking college rules. He cites the constitution and Oregon Law to defend himself. I'll have to leave that to the locals to see how far over the line he was. I'd suggest that going after him would be counter-productive as the NRA would make a martyr of him. And an anti-Christ of the campus staff and their bosses.

But that isn't the point.

He said: "Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved".

And you accuse me of not bothering to read the story that you didn't bother to provide a link to?

Now back to the cops. Again and again I have pointed out that my issue is with the strategy, as directed by the bosses. The cops on the ground just follow orders. Again and again you ignore that. But then looking at the videos above, you cherry pick what you like and disregard the rest. So you probably aren't reading this bit anyway and I bet you started typing you reply before you got past the videos. Did you know that all of the Armagh team and management have come out of the closet? And Fearon as well?

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.

You call the peelers when it suits you and you condemn the way they would handle  your issue, hypocritical.

Good for them and Tony! Who cares?

Stew you have gone completely off the rails. Your 2nd sentence doesn't make any sense. I don't use the word 'peelers'. That is from the mid 19th century in the UK.

You came on here claiming the guy had been denied his chance of being a hero. You never provided a link. Now we know why. Your story was inaccurate. Whether it was NBC, FOX NEWS or out of the NRA's hole, the guy himself said 'luckily, we made the choice not to get involved'. He was denied nothing.

Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 01:48:02 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 01:23:03 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 12, 2015, 11:36:44 PM
Stew here is our man being interviewed: http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings (http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings)

Here is the interview on NBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo)

"Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved," he told MSNBC. "We were quite a distance away from the actual building where it was happening, which could have opened us up to being potential targets ourselves. And, you know, not knowing where SWAT was on their response time, they wouldn't know who we were, and if we had our guns ready to shoot, they'd think we were the bad guys."

There is some debate regarding his own weapon. He was breaking college rules. He cites the constitution and Oregon Law to defend himself. I'll have to leave that to the locals to see how far over the line he was. I'd suggest that going after him would be counter-productive as the NRA would make a martyr of him. And an anti-Christ of the campus staff and their bosses.

But that isn't the point.

He said: "Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved".

And you accuse me of not bothering to read the story that you didn't bother to provide a link to?

Now back to the cops. Again and again I have pointed out that my issue is with the strategy, as directed by the bosses. The cops on the ground just follow orders. Again and again you ignore that. But then looking at the videos above, you cherry pick what you like and disregard the rest. So you probably aren't reading this bit anyway and I bet you started typing you reply before you got past the videos. Did you know that all of the Armagh team and management have come out of the closet? And Fearon as well?

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.

You call the peelers when it suits you and you condemn the way they would handle  your issue, hypocritical.

Good for them and Tony! Who cares?

Stew you have gone completely off the rails. Your 2nd sentence doesn't make any sense. I don't use the word 'peelers'. That is from the mid 19th century in the UK.

You came on here claiming the guy had been denied his chance of being a hero. You never provided a link. Now we know why. Your story was inaccurate. Whether it was NBC, FOX NEWS or out of the NRA's hole, the guy himself said 'luckily, we made the choice not to get involved'. He was denied nothing.

Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie.


I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

By the way, more hypocrisy from the left in the article below.

Liberal 'Daily Show' Host Insults Ben Carson... But Then Said Something Stunning When Cameras Were Off
Retired neurosurgeon and presidential candidate Dr. Ben Carson took quite a bit of heat recently from the liberal media after he stated that more people should attempt to rush and overpower mass shooters.

In Carson's take, doing so could possibly prevent the criminals and psychopaths from killing so many innocent people.

One member of the liberal media who piled on Carson's comments was the new host of Comedy Central's "Daily Show," Trevor Noah, who skewered Carson during one of his monologues last week.

Noah said, "Rushing a gunman? It seems crazy... It's weird that Ben Carson would think a zombie strategy would be the way to go. Unless... wait a second. Slow, languid pace. Dead eyes. Loves brains. Oh my God, this explains everything, Ben Carson is a zombie!"

However, during a political convention this weekend, Noah sang a different tune while speaking with political commentator and liberal strategist James Carville.

Noah seemingly walked back his initial criticism of Carson's statements and admitted that rushing a gunman is actually a good idea, though he still insulted Carson, to an extent.

"Everyone rushed (to Carson) and said, 'You're crazy, you crazy man.' And the first thing I say is, 'Rush the gunman? Oh, he's right. He's actually right. If people rush the gunman, there is a chance that the person would be able to kill less people.'"

Noah added, "But he's callous. And he's not considering the fact that you're talking about humans, and not soldiers... But I don't come from a place where he's wrong because I stand on the opposite side of him."

Trevor Noah and Ben Carson are quite different ideologically speaking, but at least Noah was willing to admit that, at least in this case, Carson has the right idea.

Perhaps Noah should look at some of Carson's other stances on various issues with an open mind, as he may find he agrees with the doctor on some of them as well.

And maybe the next time Noah admits that a target of his criticism was actually right.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 13, 2015, 04:46:58 PM
Careful now. Last week he posted a Facebook page as evidence that 90% of Americans own guns. This one was probably on Justin Bieber's Twitter.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on October 13, 2015, 04:51:16 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 01:23:03 PM

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.


Stew, are you saying they doctored the interview with the guy, or that they scripted it?

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 05:08:54 PM
Quote from: gallsman on October 13, 2015, 04:46:58 PM
Careful now. Last week he posted a Facebook page as evidence that 90% of Americans own guns. This one was probably on Justin Bieber's Twitter.

You ever quoted from wiki you numpty?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 13, 2015, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 07:09:50 PM
Quote from: heganboy on October 13, 2015, 04:51:16 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 01:23:03 PM

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.


Stew, are you saying they doctored the interview with the guy, or that they scripted it?

No, I am saying that station is the single most biased station of them all, well, they are tied with Fox news on that score, they are out there.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:32:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:36:24 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 07:09:50 PM
Quote from: heganboy on October 13, 2015, 04:51:16 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 01:23:03 PM

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.


Stew, are you saying they doctored the interview with the guy, or that they scripted it?

No, I am saying that station is the single most biased station of them all, well, they are tied with Fox news on that score, they are out there.

Do you seriously believe  that they are far left as Fox as far right?

Who is their Hannity?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 07:39:41 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:36:24 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 07:09:50 PM
Quote from: heganboy on October 13, 2015, 04:51:16 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 01:23:03 PM

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.


Stew, are you saying they doctored the interview with the guy, or that they scripted it?

No, I am saying that station is the single most biased station of them all, well, they are tied with Fox news on that score, they are out there.

Do you seriously believe  that they are far left as Fox as far right?

Who is their Hannity?

More so!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 07:41:16 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

I cant see it no mo, it was on the Conservative Tribune I saw it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 07:46:19 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:36:24 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 07:09:50 PM
Quote from: heganboy on October 13, 2015, 04:51:16 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 01:23:03 PM

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.


Stew, are you saying they doctored the interview with the guy, or that they scripted it?

No, I am saying that station is the single most biased station of them all, well, they are tied with Fox news on that score, they are out there.

Do you seriously believe  that they are far left as Fox as far right?

Who is their Hannity?

I cant watch it anymore, I tried and I cannot do it, shit I can hardly watch Fox but you have to as it stands alone as a conservative platform and it does have Megyn Kelly on there, I would love a rattle at that woman, she is some article!  :)

I primarily watch CBS and CNBC to get some semblance of normalcy.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 08:14:23 PM
You have to watch Fox?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 08:36:56 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 08:14:23 PM
You have to watch Fox?

Yes I do, I like to watch them all to get different perspective on the same issues, what I cant do is watch msnbc, I would end up putting my foot through my flat screen, communist arsehole the lot of them.

Why would you not watch Fox, you would be able to pick their lies apart surely muppet?

I would prefer to glean information from many outlets but hey, you keep drinking the leftist kool aid and stick to your left is right mantra!

Jesus wept!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 13, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:32:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 08:41:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:32:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets

Thank you whitey, he accused me the fecking muppet!  :P
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 13, 2015, 09:50:39 PM
Yet you still can't post the source. "It was on the conservative tribune" is all you can muster.

Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 05:08:54 PM
Quote from: gallsman on October 13, 2015, 04:46:58 PM
Careful now. Last week he posted a Facebook page as evidence that 90% of Americans own guns. This one was probably on Justin Bieber's Twitter.

You ever quoted from wiki you numpty?

Probably. Then again, wiki is at least edited to some extent. The worst bit is that even after some posters offered to correct your awful attempt at maths and suggest that what you meant to claim was (as is often cited) that there are 90 guns for every 100 Americans (in case you still don't get it, which I imagine you don't, this is vastly different from 90% of Americans owning guns), you didn't even appreciate the get out of jail free card you were being offered and continued to ramble on illogically and incoherently about liberals, loony lefties, communists etc.

Yet you call me a numpty. Interesting. I've always joked about how easy it must be to make it America but Christ you prove the theory.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 13, 2015, 10:29:10 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 09:57:13 PM
What is maths? Do you mean math you illiterate piece of shite?
[/quote]

No, no I don't. You forgotten where you come from or something? You generally don't know or remember much, so it wouldn't surprise me.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 11:27:35 PM
Quote from: gallsman on October 13, 2015, 10:29:10 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 09:57:13 PM
What is maths? Do you mean math you illiterate piece of shite?

No, no I don't. You forgotten where you come from or something? You generally don't know or remember much, so it wouldn't surprise me.
[/quote]

In fairness I do suffer from epilepsy and had to learn to read and write again back in the day after being hit by a drunk driver so you might be right!

Maths!  :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 14, 2015, 06:53:20 AM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:32:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets


You need to read the thread again, as usual.

Here is exactly what I said: "Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie."

What is it with Republican supports and their difficult relationship with the truth?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on October 14, 2015, 09:34:04 AM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 09:57:13 PM
Quote from: gallsman on October 13, 2015, 09:50:39 PM
Yet you still can't post the source. "It was on the conservative tribune" is all you can muster.

Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 05:08:54 PM
Quote from: gallsman on October 13, 2015, 04:46:58 PM
Careful now. Last week he posted a Facebook page as evidence that 90% of Americans own guns. This one was probably on Justin Bieber's Twitter.

You ever quoted from wiki you numpty?

I do not have to, it has been verified ya **** ya!


Probably. Then again, wiki is at least edited to some extent. The worst bit is that even sheet some posters offered to correct your awful attempt at maths and suggest that what you meant to claim was (as is often cited) that there are 90 guns for every 100 Americans (in case you still don't get it, which I imagine you don't, this is vastly different from 90% of Americans owning guns), you didn't even appreciate the get out of jail free card you being offered and continued to ramble on illogically and incoherently about liberals, loony lefties, communists etc.

Yet you call me a numpty. Interesting. I've always joked about how easy it must be to make it America but Christ you prove the theory.

What is maths? Do you mean math you illiterate piece of shite?

You would know nothing about making it, I would so f**k off  and die you absolute piece of shite!
Stay classy Stew
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 14, 2015, 12:52:43 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 14, 2015, 06:53:20 AM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:32:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets


You need to read the thread again, as usual.

Here is exactly what I said: "Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie."

What is it with Republican supports and their difficult relationship with the truth?

This coming from a man who would support HC as president! That bastard would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit her on her arse!


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 14, 2015, 07:40:12 PM
Quote from: stew on October 14, 2015, 12:52:43 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 14, 2015, 06:53:20 AM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:32:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets


You need to read the thread again, as usual.

Here is exactly what I said: "Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie."

What is it with Republican supports and their difficult relationship with the truth?

This coming from a man who would support HC as president! That b**tard would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit her on her arse!

Ah go on Stew.  :D

Please post where I said I'd support Hillary.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 14, 2015, 09:46:14 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 14, 2015, 07:40:12 PM
Quote from: stew on October 14, 2015, 12:52:43 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 14, 2015, 06:53:20 AM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:32:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets


You need to read the thread again, as usual.

Here is exactly what I said: "Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie."

What is it with Republican supports and their difficult relationship with the truth?

This coming from a man who would support HC as president! That b**tard would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit her on her arse!

Ah go on Stew.  :D

Please post where I said I'd support Hillary.

If she got the Dems vote to run for President and you had a vote who would you vote for?

Hmmm, Carson? Nah, Trump? Hell Nah, How about ANY Republican? Nah. That would leave Hillary and I would never believe you if you said you would vote for any conservative, the next good word you say about any of them will be the first.

I also do not believe you would not vote, you lot cant help yourselves.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 14, 2015, 10:27:13 PM
I've voted Republican in NYC elections.

In a national election, not a hope in hell, at least until the national GOP sheds the lunatic element which has seized control of their party.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 15, 2015, 01:00:33 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 14, 2015, 06:53:20 AM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:32:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets


You need to read the thread again, as usual.

Here is exactly what I said: "Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie."

What is it with Republican supports and their difficult relationship with the truth?

Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.


By demanding he post it (which you did on numerous occasions) you are calling him a liar in my book
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on October 15, 2015, 01:10:31 AM
Very interesting decision today in a landmark legal case in the US. Its going to go to a few appeals I would imagine,

source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/10/14/the-multimillion-dollar-wisconsin-gun-store-verdict-that-could-reverberate-in-the-gun-debate/

QuoteThe multimillion dollar Wisconsin gun store verdict that could reverberate in the gun debate


In an unusual case, a jury in Wisconsin declared Tuesday that a gun store had to pay millions of dollars to Milwaukee police officers who were shot by a firearm bought at the store.

The case offered an attention-grabbing combination of factors, including a rare loss for the firearms industry, a verdict awarding more than $5 million in damages, injured police officers and a contested gun sale. And it also arrived as the country discusses gun violence in the wake of another mass shooting, an ongoing conversation that has led to presidential candidates debating a federal law that protects gun sellers and manufacturers from liability.

Experts say the Wisconsin verdict's long-term impact could be significant if it prompts a surge in new lawsuits aimed at the firearms industry and at the federal law's exemptions, though they caution that the case is far from over, as the lawyer for the gun store says he plans to appeal.

"We may be at the threshold of something, but you can't predict it right now," said Marshall S. Shapo, a law professor at Northwestern University and an expert in product liability. "When you get a blip like this, it may signal that there's a target of opportunity but you have a long way to go."


The case centered on a gun that was sold to one person, given to another and then used not long after to shoot two police officers.

In 2009, two Milwaukee police officers named Bryan Norberg and Graham Kunisch were attempting to stop an 18-year-old named Julius Burton for riding his bicycle on a sidewalk. Burton opened fire at the officers, hitting both of them. Norberg was shot in the face, shoulder and knee, while Knusch was shot in the face, hand, shoulder and neck, according to the Wisconsin Supreme Court's account of the case.

Burton was found guilty in 2010 and sentenced to 80 years. He pleaded guilty and later tried to withdraw these pleas, but the state Supreme Court denied that request. Jacob Collins, who bought the gun, was convicted of violating federal gun laws and sentenced to two years in prison.


Norberg and Kunisch both survived and filed a civil lawsuit against Badger Guns, the store that sold the gun Burton later used to shoot them. They argued in the lawsuit that the store knew or should have known that Collins was buying the firearm for Burton, who was too young to buy the gun.

Jurors on Tuesday deliberated for about nine hours before coming to a decision that Milwaukee County Circuit Judge John DiMotto read from the bench. Among other things, DiMotto said that the jury had found the sale to be negligent and that this was responsible for the injuries to both officers.

James B. Vogts, the attorney for Badger Guns, said in an e-mailed statement late Tuesday that he and his clients expected it to wind up in the appellate courts.

"Significant legal issues were decided in the case that impacted the evidence the jury was permitted to consider and the legal standards they were told to apply," Vogts said. "We will appeal."

The same night the verdict was read, Democratic presidential candidates participating in a debate in Las Vegas sparred over gun violence and the federal law that provides rare protection for companies that sell or make firearms.

This shield law — known as the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act — has been praised by the firearms industry and decried by supporters of gun-control. The law was passed in 2005 following a wave of lawsuits from victims of gun violence and cities. More than 30 states also enacted similar statutes, according to the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

The federal measure also offers some exceptions that allow for civil lawsuits, including when someone knows a firearm will be used for violence, when a sale could violate a law or when the seller is negligent. The civil complaint filed by Norberg and Kunisch highlighted some of the exceptions in the federal law.

This liability protection has drawn new coverage recently as Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, who voted against the 2005 law as a senator, said she would push to repeal the federal law if elected president.

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), who voted for the bill while he was in the House, has come under fire for his stance on guns.

During the Democratic debate in Las Vegas, Sanders said he did not support shielding gun companies from lawsuits, but he did say action was needed to stop manufacturers for knowingly allowing criminals to get guns.

Sanders also said the country had to deal with the straw purchasing issue at work in the Wisconsin case. (A "straw purchase" is when one person who can legally buy a gun purchases it for someone who cannot or will not.)

Attorneys for victims of mass shootings have been critical of the federal law for limiting their ability to file lawsuits after such violence, but the gun industry contends that it is necessary. The National Rifle Association, which pushed for the law, says the shield protects the industry from lawsuits it describes as unfair.

The law is needed to protect companies from being blamed for the "criminal misuse of lawfully sold, non-defective firearms," said Lawrence G. Keane, general counsel for the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the the firearms industry's trade association. Since 2000, the foundation has run a campaign aimed at stopping straw purchases, he said.

Keane said the federal law was never intended to offer blanket immunity, and said that the jury verdict in Wisconsin shows that the law is functioning as it should.

"The Badger Guns case makes the case that the statute works exactly as Congress intended," Keane said. "If a law pertaining to the sale of firearms has been violated, they can be sued. There's no need to repeal the statute, it works exactly as intended."

Keane said that his group would fight any effort to repeal the law. "Even Bernie Sanders has said it's wrong to sue a manufacturer," he said. "You wouldn't sue Budweiser for a drunk driving accident."

The Wisconsin verdict was believed to be the first such jury verdict since the 2005 shield law was passed. In June, jurors in Alaska cleared a gun shop owner accused of illegally selling a gun later used to kill a man.

"Lawsuits against gun stores and manufacturers really died down to a trickle after the immunity bill was passed in 2005," said Timothy D. Lytton, a law professor at Georgia State University College of Law in Atlanta.


Lytton said that some suits were still filed, but nothing liked the dozens of cases that had been filed in the years before the law. This verdict "may actually encourage plaintiffs' attorneys to bring lawsuits" under these exceptions.

"This looks like a possible resurgence," he said.

Lytton said that in the wake of high-profile shootings like the violent rampages at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., and Umpqua Community College shooting in Oregon earlier this month, the public does not expect new legislation pushing for gun control.

"Given that you're not likely to have legislative responses, where are you going to get pressure?" he said. "The answer is civil liability. It provides incentive to gun stores to follow these sorts of guidelines and for an industry to try and police them."

Keane said the Wisconsin verdict is "absolutely an outlier" and said that he expected gun control groups to push for more lawsuits in the future, even though he did not expect a wave of verdicts ruling against gun stores.

"Whether this sort of opens the proverbial floodgates, that is unlikely because it's very, very rare that you would find this sort of set of facts that they appear to have, that the jury found in the Badger Guns case," he said. "The vast, overwhelming majority of dealers are law-abiding."

The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, which has sharply criticized the 2005 federal law, also said that most gun dealers were not breaking the law, adding that it hoped the verdict would be a cautionary tale for any other gun sellers who may try to skirt the law.

"Most gun dealers are decent, responsible business people who already do what they can to keep guns out of the hands of criminals," Jonathan Lowy, director of the Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence's Legal Action Project, said in a statement.

He continued: "But to those dealers who choose to irresponsibly supply and profit from the criminal market, the message from Milwaukee is clear: protect people over profits, or you will have to pay the consequences to your victims."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 15, 2015, 02:23:49 AM
Unbelievably I coached the store owners son in the football, they have a mansion in Howard, a few mile from where I lived.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on October 15, 2015, 07:56:36 AM
Scary figures here

http://uk.businessinsider.com/guns-have-killed-more-preschoolers-than-police-officers-2015-10?utm_content=buffer811b9&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer?r=US&IR=T (http://uk.businessinsider.com/guns-have-killed-more-preschoolers-than-police-officers-2015-10?utm_content=buffer811b9&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer?r=US&IR=T)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 15, 2015, 10:27:33 AM
Why would Police Officers kill pre-schoolers? (sorry bad taste, but I couldn't help it when I saw the URL)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 15, 2015, 01:53:32 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 14, 2015, 10:27:13 PM
I've voted Republican in NYC elections.

In a national election, not a hope in hell, at least until the national GOP sheds the lunatic element which has seized control of their party.

There seems to be no middle ground anymore, both parties are getting more extreme and they simply will  not work together for the good of the people, they can give themselves nice raises however.

If anyone is clever enough to move to the middle and actually work with the other side on the issues, grave issues like  the fact that the national debt has doubled in the past 7 years, households have, according to some consumer reports, $2,000 a year less disposable income and there are 2 million more homeless people living in the country today than 7 years ago.

I do not blame all of this on Obama, the republicans, like the democrats have severely retarded the growth of the economy because they can see eye to eye on nothing, in short they are collectively hurting the American people and change is needed by both sides to affect change, sadly I do not see it happening because the next president whether blue or red will have the noose of current history hanging around their necks with people disrespecting the new president from pillar to post, in short I think the Presidency has lost a lot of it's lustre and I seriously doubt it will ever return.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 15, 2015, 02:14:32 PM
Quote from: stew on October 15, 2015, 01:53:32 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 14, 2015, 10:27:13 PM
I've voted Republican in NYC elections.

In a national election, not a hope in hell, at least until the national GOP sheds the lunatic element which has seized control of their party.

There seems to be no middle ground anymore, both parties are getting more extreme and they simply will  not work together for the good of the people, they can give themselves nice raises however.

If anyone is clever enough to move to the middle and actually work with the other side on the issues, grave issues like  the fact that the national debt has doubled in the past 7 years, households have, according to some consumer reports, $2,000 a year less disposable income and there are 2 million more homeless people living in the country today than 7 years ago.

I do not blame all of this on Obama, the republicans, like the democrats have severely retarded the growth of the economy because they can see eye to eye on nothing, in short they are collectively hurting the American people and change is needed by both sides to affect change, sadly I do not see it happening because the next president whether blue or red will have the noose of current history hanging around their necks with people disrespecting the new president from pillar to post, in short I think the Presidency has lost a lot of it's lustre and I seriously doubt it will ever return.

The Dems are pretty much as they have always been. The GOP is the one embracing the crazies. It wasn't a Democratic governor legitimizing the Jade Helm insanity in Texas. It wasn't the Dems who spent years legitimizing the birthers and "Obama is a muslim" bullshit.  It's not the Dems who are denying science or trying to hold back gay marriage and embracing a false narrative about white Christian persecution. It's not the Dems who refuse to budge an inch on even the most common sense measures of gun control like background checks. It's not Dems who want to deny kids who grew up in the States residency because through no fault of theirs their parents were illegal  immigrants. I could go on....
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 15, 2015, 02:24:58 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 15, 2015, 02:14:32 PM
Quote from: stew on October 15, 2015, 01:53:32 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 14, 2015, 10:27:13 PM
I've voted Republican in NYC elections.

In a national election, not a hope in hell, at least until the national GOP sheds the lunatic element which has seized control of their party.

There seems to be no middle ground anymore, both parties are getting more extreme and they simply will  not work together for the good of the people, they can give themselves nice raises however.

If anyone is clever enough to move to the middle and actually work with the other side on the issues, grave issues like  the fact that the national debt has doubled in the past 7 years, households have, according to some consumer reports, $2,000 a year less disposable income and there are 2 million more homeless people living in the country today than 7 years ago.

I do not blame all of this on Obama, the republicans, like the democrats have severely retarded the growth of the economy because they can see eye to eye on nothing, in short they are collectively hurting the American people and change is needed by both sides to affect change, sadly I do not see it happening because the next president whether blue or red will have the noose of current history hanging around their necks with people disrespecting the new president from pillar to post, in short I think the Presidency has lost a lot of it's lustre and I seriously doubt it will ever return.

The Dems are pretty much as they have always been. The GOP is the one embracing the crazies. It wasn't a Democratic governor legitimizing the Jade Helm insanity in Texas. It wasn't the Dems who spent years legitimizing the birthers and "Obama is a muslim" bullshit.  It's not the Dems who are denying science or trying to hold back gay marriage and embracing a false narrative about white Christian persecution. It's not the Dems who refuse to budge an inch on even the most common sense measures of gun control like background checks. It's not Dems who want to deny kids who grew up in the States residency because through no fault of theirs their parents were illegal  immigrants. I could go on....


Are they f**k, they are attacking capitalism, spending trillions of dollars and devastating this country from the inside out, this President has  amassed more debt than every single president before him combined and at some point that is going to have to be addressed.

Party politics is repugnant, it was the dems who tried to have Walker kicked out of office even though he was elected by the people, it was the dems that absolutely abused president bush at every farts turn, what the fook did you think was going to happen?

The republicans are a disgrace as are the democrats, this batch of entrenched political animals might just be the weakest political entity this country has ever seen, both sides, but spare me the rhetoric that just highlights the republicans foibles, the dems are every bit as bad, both a disgrace.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 15, 2015, 02:36:23 PM
Quote from: stew on October 15, 2015, 02:24:58 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 15, 2015, 02:14:32 PM
Quote from: stew on October 15, 2015, 01:53:32 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 14, 2015, 10:27:13 PM
I've voted Republican in NYC elections.

In a national election, not a hope in hell, at least until the national GOP sheds the lunatic element which has seized control of their party.

There seems to be no middle ground anymore, both parties are getting more extreme and they simply will  not work together for the good of the people, they can give themselves nice raises however.

If anyone is clever enough to move to the middle and actually work with the other side on the issues, grave issues like  the fact that the national debt has doubled in the past 7 years, households have, according to some consumer reports, $2,000 a year less disposable income and there are 2 million more homeless people living in the country today than 7 years ago.

I do not blame all of this on Obama, the republicans, like the democrats have severely retarded the growth of the economy because they can see eye to eye on nothing, in short they are collectively hurting the American people and change is needed by both sides to affect change, sadly I do not see it happening because the next president whether blue or red will have the noose of current history hanging around their necks with people disrespecting the new president from pillar to post, in short I think the Presidency has lost a lot of it's lustre and I seriously doubt it will ever return.

The Dems are pretty much as they have always been. The GOP is the one embracing the crazies. It wasn't a Democratic governor legitimizing the Jade Helm insanity in Texas. It wasn't the Dems who spent years legitimizing the birthers and "Obama is a muslim" bullshit.  It's not the Dems who are denying science or trying to hold back gay marriage and embracing a false narrative about white Christian persecution. It's not the Dems who refuse to budge an inch on even the most common sense measures of gun control like background checks. It's not Dems who want to deny kids who grew up in the States residency because through no fault of theirs their parents were illegal  immigrants. I could go on....


Are they f**k, they are attacking capitalism, spending trillions of dollars and devastating this country from the inside out, this President has  amassed more debt than every single president before him combined and at some point that is going to have to be addressed.

Party politics is repugnant, it was the dems who tried to have Walker kicked out of office even though he was elected by the people, it was the dems that absolutely abused president bush at every farts turn, what the fook did you think was going to happen?

The republicans are a disgrace as are the democrats, this batch of entrenched political animals might just be the weakest political entity this country has ever seen, both sides, but spare me the rhetoric that just highlights the republicans foibles, the dems are every bit as bad, both a disgrace.

Tell us stew, what should Obama have done regarding spending when he took over in 2009?

How are the Dems attacking capitalism?

Walker was recalled via the voters. In case you missed it, the GOP got Arnie elected in CA the same way. Democracy in action. No anti-intellectualism or conspiracism.

Bush dished out as much as he ever got.  He dragged the country into Iraq under cooked intelligence, used 9-11 to bully opposition and oversaw the Swift boat campaign against Kerry, about as disgraceful a campaign as has ever been.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 15, 2015, 02:48:08 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 15, 2015, 02:36:23 PM
Quote from: stew on October 15, 2015, 02:24:58 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 15, 2015, 02:14:32 PM
Quote from: stew on October 15, 2015, 01:53:32 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 14, 2015, 10:27:13 PM
I've voted Republican in NYC elections.

In a national election, not a hope in hell, at least until the national GOP sheds the lunatic element which has seized control of their party.

There seems to be no middle ground anymore, both parties are getting more extreme and they simply will  not work together for the good of the people, they can give themselves nice raises however.

If anyone is clever enough to move to the middle and actually work with the other side on the issues, grave issues like  the fact that the national debt has doubled in the past 7 years, households have, according to some consumer reports, $2,000 a year less disposable income and there are 2 million more homeless people living in the country today than 7 years ago.

I do not blame all of this on Obama, the republicans, like the democrats have severely retarded the growth of the economy because they can see eye to eye on nothing, in short they are collectively hurting the American people and change is needed by both sides to affect change, sadly I do not see it happening because the next president whether blue or red will have the noose of current history hanging around their necks with people disrespecting the new president from pillar to post, in short I think the Presidency has lost a lot of it's lustre and I seriously doubt it will ever return.

The Dems are pretty much as they have always been. The GOP is the one embracing the crazies. It wasn't a Democratic governor legitimizing the Jade Helm insanity in Texas. It wasn't the Dems who spent years legitimizing the birthers and "Obama is a muslim" bullshit.  It's not the Dems who are denying science or trying to hold back gay marriage and embracing a false narrative about white Christian persecution. It's not the Dems who refuse to budge an inch on even the most common sense measures of gun control like background checks. It's not Dems who want to deny kids who grew up in the States residency because through no fault of theirs their parents were illegal  immigrants. I could go on....


Are they f**k, they are attacking capitalism, spending trillions of dollars and devastating this country from the inside out, this President has  amassed more debt than every single president before him combined and at some point that is going to have to be addressed.

Party politics is repugnant, it was the dems who tried to have Walker kicked out of office even though he was elected by the people, it was the dems that absolutely abused president bush at every farts turn, what the fook did you think was going to happen?

The republicans are a disgrace as are the democrats, this batch of entrenched political animals might just be the weakest political entity this country has ever seen, both sides, but spare me the rhetoric that just highlights the republicans foibles, the dems are every bit as bad, both a disgrace.

Tell us stew, what should Obama have done regarding spending when he took over in 2009?

Certainly should not have given handouts to banks and absolve them of their debt. probably should not have bailed out seemingly everyone bar ford in the Auto indudtry, and yeah, he might not have wanted to have the top men receiving massive bonus checks under his watch as their companies went into the toilet. You speak like this president is FDR esque, far from it, he is as big a bumbler as Bush ever was, and oh yeah, he probably didnt need to double the national debt in eight years, which is is more than going to do!
How are the Dems attacking capitalism?

Walker was recalled via the voters. In case you missed it, the GOP got Arnie elected in CA the same way. Democracy in action. No anti-intellectualism or conspiracism.

Walker beat the dems, beat the shit out of them, they ran to Illinois the cowards rather than try and work with him, not the GOP, the Democrats! True story. )

Bush dished out as much as he ever got.  He dragged the country into Iraq under cooked intelligence, used 9-11 to bully opposition and oversaw the Swift boat campaign against Kerry, about as disgraceful a campaign as has ever been.

I blame Chad for that myself, Kerry is a balloon, he is a mealy mouthed diplomat who needs to go away.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 15, 2015, 03:13:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 15, 2015, 01:00:33 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 14, 2015, 06:53:20 AM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:32:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets


You need to read the thread again, as usual.

Here is exactly what I said: "Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie."

What is it with Republican supports and their difficult relationship with the truth?

Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.


By demanding he post it (which you did on numerous occasions) you are calling him a liar in my book

To prove I called someone a liar, you provide a post from someone else? This even after I put up the relevant post.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Please, keep it up, I need a good laugh.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 15, 2015, 04:56:42 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 15, 2015, 03:13:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 15, 2015, 01:00:33 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 14, 2015, 06:53:20 AM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:32:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 13, 2015, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets


You need to read the thread again, as usual.

Here is exactly what I said: "Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie."

What is it with Republican supports and their difficult relationship with the truth?

Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.


By demanding he post it (which you did on numerous occasions) you are calling him a liar in my book

To prove I called someone a liar, you provide a post from someone else? This even after I put up the relevant post.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Please, keep it up, I need a good laugh.

Semantics gentlemen, time to move on.

I did see him interviewed and he had something completely different to saw than what muppet posted, I wish I could find it but I am not good with computers, I will retract my statement that he should have been allowed to go in because he is a bullshitter who panders to whomever is talking to him.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 19, 2015, 01:18:31 PM
http://news.sky.com/story/1571864/boy-3-shot-dead-during-cops-and-robbers-game   ::)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on October 19, 2015, 02:16:31 PM
Same story, family tragedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/19/boy-6-fatally-shoots-toddler-brother-while-playing-cops-and-robbers-dad-arrested/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 19, 2015, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: heganboy on October 19, 2015, 02:16:31 PM
Same story, family tragedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/19/boy-6-fatally-shoots-toddler-brother-while-playing-cops-and-robbers-dad-arrested/

What a fvckin idiot.  An illegal gun, wrapped in a pair of old pajamas and the left on top of a fridge. Then he shows the 6 year old where it is......

Trace all these guns back to source and prosecute anyone (as accessories to murder) along the line who violated protocol
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 19, 2015, 06:19:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 19, 2015, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: heganboy on October 19, 2015, 02:16:31 PM
Same story, family tragedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/19/boy-6-fatally-shoots-toddler-brother-while-playing-cops-and-robbers-dad-arrested/

What a fvckin idiot.  An illegal gun, wrapped in a pair of old pajamas and the left on top of a fridge. Then he shows the 6 year old where it is......

Trace all these guns back to source and prosecute anyone (as accessories to murder) along the line who violated protocol

The NRA and Republicans are the ones standing in the way of such common sense traceability.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 21, 2015, 04:43:26 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 19, 2015, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: heganboy on October 19, 2015, 02:16:31 PM
Same story, family tragedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/19/boy-6-fatally-shoots-toddler-brother-while-playing-cops-and-robbers-dad-arrested/

What a fvckin idiot.  An illegal gun, wrapped in a pair of old pajamas and the left on top of a fridge. Then he shows the 6 year old where it is......

Trace all these guns back to source and prosecute anyone (as accessories to murder) along the line who violated protocol

Exactly. But isn't that gun control?


This figure quoted by the judge James Brown is jaw-dropping: " That's why we've had 2,300 people shot in Chicago so far this year."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 22, 2015, 07:30:08 AM
Quote from: muppet on October 21, 2015, 04:43:26 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 19, 2015, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: heganboy on October 19, 2015, 02:16:31 PM
Same story, family tragedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/19/boy-6-fatally-shoots-toddler-brother-while-playing-cops-and-robbers-dad-arrested/

What a fvckin idiot.  An illegal gun, wrapped in a pair of old pajamas and the left on top of a fridge. Then he shows the 6 year old where it is......

Trace all these guns back to source and prosecute anyone (as accessories to murder) along the line who violated protocol

Exactly. But isn't that gun control?


This figure quoted by the judge James Brown is jaw-dropping: " That's why we've had 2,300 people shot in Chicago so far this year."

I noticed that myself and was gobsmacked, but a quick bit of googling and its not a homicide figure, that was 432 last year.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Kursk on November 01, 2015, 03:01:58 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 19, 2015, 06:19:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 19, 2015, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: heganboy on October 19, 2015, 02:16:31 PM
Same story, family tragedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/19/boy-6-fatally-shoots-toddler-brother-while-playing-cops-and-robbers-dad-arrested/

What a fvckin idiot.  An illegal gun, wrapped in a pair of old pajamas and the left on top of a fridge. Then he shows the 6 year old where it is......

Trace all these guns back to source and prosecute anyone (as accessories to murder) along the line who violated protocol

The NRA and Republicans are the ones standing in the way of such common sense traceability.

Indeed. You hit the nail on the head.

One thing that people don't seem to realize , and its staring them in the face, is the connection between gun control and US foreign policy. The same mentality reigns.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on November 17, 2015, 06:30:09 PM
Donald Trump, nothing but a p***k, taking advantage of the horror in paris to preach no need for gun control to americans. What a pathetic example of a human being.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on November 17, 2015, 10:29:44 PM
Does he with the orange bird's nest on his head know that, according to Slate.com, over 80,000 Americans have died from guns since Sandy Hook.  So, does he want even more French to die, that ass.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 17, 2015, 10:41:04 PM
Quote from: Kursk on November 01, 2015, 03:01:58 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 19, 2015, 06:19:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 19, 2015, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: heganboy on October 19, 2015, 02:16:31 PM
Same story, family tragedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/19/boy-6-fatally-shoots-toddler-brother-while-playing-cops-and-robbers-dad-arrested/

What a fvckin idiot.  An illegal gun, wrapped in a pair of old pajamas and the left on top of a fridge. Then he shows the 6 year old where it is......

Trace all these guns back to source and prosecute anyone (as accessories to murder) along the line who violated protocol

The NRA and Republicans are the ones standing in the way of such common sense traceability.

Indeed. You hit the nail on the head.

One thing that people don't seem to realize , and its staring them in the face, is the connection between gun control and US foreign policy. The same mentality reigns.

Im intrigued by your comment......what exactly is the connection between US foreign policy and gun control?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on December 02, 2015, 07:59:07 PM
Another tragic shooting in California.

Police are attending a shooting in California, with reports of 20 victims.

The San Bernardino Fire Department tweeted that it was responding to a "20 victim shooting incident" and it was working to clear the scene.

It is still a "very active scene" and police are trying to secure the building, said a spokeswoman from the San Bernardino Police Department.

There may be up to three gunmen she said, and the shooters were heavily armed and possibly wearing body armour.

She did not confirm the number of victims.

A local reporter tweeted that people are being evacuated from the Inland Regional Center, a non-profit medical and health organisation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34987697?SThisFB
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 02, 2015, 08:16:01 PM
One report saying 15 dead and 25 injured. Still going on. Up to 3 shooters in a building in San Bernadino.

Why is there this never ending supply of crackpots who want to become infamous?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on December 02, 2015, 08:45:00 PM
When will that stupid Country cop itself on?
And to think people are bombing ISIS.....
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 02, 2015, 08:50:17 PM
I have no idea who the shooters are, or the victims, but this is a terrible way to go.

RIP.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on December 02, 2015, 08:56:50 PM
Reports saying it was a disgruntled county worker.

The building he opened fire on was a centre for people with learning disabilities.

As this news came through on the internet, I was in the middle of watching the debate ongoing in Parliament on going to war
in Syria against ISIS. Passionate speeches for going to war, no matter what the cost, human or financially.

Yet in the US, thousands are been killed in shootings every year, and the country is awash with guns.

Sadly, the NRA hold too much power in Washington, and too many US citizens are against gun control.

Until both sides change, this thread will; go on and on for years with news stories just like this and the ones before.

May those killed rest in peace
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 02, 2015, 09:00:34 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/02/us/california-shooting-scene/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/02/us/california-shooting-scene/index.html)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 02, 2015, 09:08:15 PM
Reports saying that multiple shooters involved.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 02, 2015, 09:11:21 PM
Quote from: moysider on December 02, 2015, 09:08:15 PM
Reports saying that multiple shooters involved.

Tweets of police scanners saying number 1 suspect is a Farooq Saeed

Info which of course should be taken with caution.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Aaron Boone on December 02, 2015, 09:14:27 PM
Obama issued strongly worded statement after last week's Colorado shooting. There's not much more for him to say after this one.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 02, 2015, 09:16:22 PM

Multiple shooters in 'tactical gear'. Police detonated some device as well apparently.
Doesn t sound like the usual local nut job.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 02, 2015, 09:16:37 PM
Are people in the media required to think before they put up a tweet from their news station?

KWWLVerified account ‏@KWWL  4m4 minutes ago
Watch the California mass shooting live on KWWL http://bit.ly/1HGMtXg?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_kwwl ...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 02, 2015, 09:50:30 PM
Quote from: Aaron Boone on December 02, 2015, 09:14:27 PM
Obama issued strongly worded statement after last week's Colorado shooting. There's not much more for him to say after this one.


A lot of people could give 2 fvcks about what he thinks on the matter (even though he is right to a point)

Black Friday saw an unprecedented number of guns sold

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/12/01/black-friday-breaks-record-185k-gun-background-checks/76624604/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 02, 2015, 09:51:58 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 02, 2015, 09:11:21 PM
Quote from: moysider on December 02, 2015, 09:08:15 PM
Reports saying that multiple shooters involved.

Tweets of police scanners saying number 1 suspect is a Farooq Saeed

Info which of course should be taken with caution.

Is this in the jurisdiction of that sheriff we were discussing earlier this week?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 02, 2015, 10:02:17 PM

14 confirmed dead at this stage. Expect this to rise.

There could be an Act II as well when these guys are tracked down.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gawa316 on December 02, 2015, 10:41:53 PM
I work in this field and have worked with Inland Regional Center in the past.

Absolutely devastating news, thoughts and prayers go out to everyone affected by these shootings
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 02, 2015, 11:03:39 PM

This is strange. Shooters get way. Multiple suspects.

Not the usual nutjob scenario where the perpetrator kills himself or gets killed in situ.

No obvious motive. Looks like terrorism is a runner here. God knows what the implications of that scenario  would be.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 02, 2015, 11:29:44 PM
God curse these scummy bastards!!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gawa316 on December 03, 2015, 12:27:19 AM
Reports saying 2 suspects down, one may be at large
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 03, 2015, 12:40:00 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 02, 2015, 09:51:58 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 02, 2015, 09:11:21 PM
Quote from: moysider on December 02, 2015, 09:08:15 PM
Reports saying that multiple shooters involved.

Tweets of police scanners saying number 1 suspect is a Farooq Saeed

Info which of course should be taken with caution.

Is this in the jurisdiction of that sheriff we were discussing earlier this week?

No idea.

I was referring to the reliability of twitter.

Releasing the name on twitter could be very dangerous to people of the same or a similar name.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on December 03, 2015, 12:48:02 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 03, 2015, 12:40:00 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 02, 2015, 09:51:58 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 02, 2015, 09:11:21 PM
Quote from: moysider on December 02, 2015, 09:08:15 PM
Reports saying that multiple shooters involved.

Tweets of police scanners saying number 1 suspect is a Farooq Saeed

Info which of course should be taken with caution.

Is this in the jurisdiction of that sheriff we were discussing earlier this week?

No idea.

I was referring to the reliability of twitter.

Releasing the name on twitter could be very dangerous to people of the same or a similar name.

No, this is San Bernardino county, that guy was in Kern County, but this is SanB Police Dpt not the sheriffs dpt.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 01:11:53 AM
This is hard to fathom. A disgruntled worker would have found it hard to get two heavily armed individuals to join him. Even ISIS wouldn't target a hospital in the first instance. I presume this was not a federal facility, so not like Oklahoma. It is some evil c**nts anyhow.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 03, 2015, 02:01:06 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 01:11:53 AM
This is hard to fathom. A disgruntled worker would have found it hard to get two heavily armed individuals to join him. Even ISIS wouldn't target a hospital in the first instance. I presume this was not a federal facility, so not like Oklahoma. It is some evil c**nts anyhow.

One report I heard said that this center had rooms/facilities that they rented out to outside entities for functions

Shooting"may" have nothing to do with the center

Also just reported that one of deceased shooters is a woman

FBI guy just said they hadnt ruled out a terrorist connection, but had no evidence that that was the case either
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 03, 2015, 02:16:27 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 02, 2015, 09:11:21 PM
Quote from: moysider on December 02, 2015, 09:08:15 PM
Reports saying that multiple shooters involved.

Tweets of police scanners saying number 1 suspect is a Farooq Saeed

Info which of course should be taken with caution.

Your buddy Sayid Farook now being named as suspect
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gawa316 on December 03, 2015, 02:17:40 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 01:11:53 AM
This is hard to fathom. A disgruntled worker would have found it hard to get two heavily armed individuals to join him. Even ISIS wouldn't target a hospital in the first instance. I presume this was not a federal facility, so not like Oklahoma. It is some evil c**nts anyhow.

Not sure of this exact location but the regional centers are throughout California and basically their staff support and provide services for individuals with intellectual disabilities
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 03:32:00 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 03, 2015, 02:01:06 AM
One report I heard said that this center had rooms/facilities that they rented out to outside entities for functions

Shooting"may" have nothing to do with the center

The attack seems to have been on the conference room(s) indeed, where "county officials" were gathered.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 06:15:31 AM
Deceased suspects named as Syed Rizwan Farook & Tashfeen Malik.
Syed Rizwan Farook was a San Bernardino County employee.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gawa316 on December 03, 2015, 06:41:27 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 03:32:00 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 03, 2015, 02:01:06 AM
One report I heard said that this center had rooms/facilities that they rented out to outside entities for functions

Shooting"may" have nothing to do with the center

The attack seems to have been on the conference room(s) indeed, where "county officials" were gathered.

Just read this from my local Regional Center...

CVRC has received an update from the Association of Regional Center Agencies (ARCA):

"We wish to advise you that we have word in from the Department of Developmental Services that all Inland Regional Center clients and employees are reported safe. At this point, it is our understanding that the victims of today's attack were part of an outside group. They were meeting in the conference center, a facility separate from, and adjacent to, the main regional center offices. It is often rented out to community groups."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: nrico2006 on December 03, 2015, 08:18:50 AM
How many mass shootings has there been in America this year?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 03, 2015, 08:40:59 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 03, 2015, 02:16:27 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 02, 2015, 09:11:21 PM
Quote from: moysider on December 02, 2015, 09:08:15 PM
Reports saying that multiple shooters involved.

Tweets of police scanners saying number 1 suspect is a Farooq Saeed

Info which of course should be taken with caution.

Your buddy Sayid Farook now being named as suspect

Still no info on wtf possessed him to go on the rampage.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 03, 2015, 08:55:40 AM
Apparently Farooq had attended the event earlier and left 'angrily'. He then returned with his wife and they started shooting.

It might not be anything to do with terrorism. It will be interesting to see how easily he got the guns.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on December 03, 2015, 10:27:44 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 03, 2015, 08:18:50 AM
How many mass shootings has there been in America this year?

There has been 355 mass shootings this year so far.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/the-san-bernardino-mass-shooting-is-the-second-today-and-the-355th-this-year/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GJL on December 03, 2015, 11:06:45 AM
Kinder eggs are banned in America because they are too dangerous! :o
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on December 03, 2015, 11:21:17 AM
Quote from: GJL on December 03, 2015, 11:06:45 AM
Kinder eggs are banned in America because they are too dangerous! :o

Another lyric for Alanis Morisette!!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on December 03, 2015, 11:21:49 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 03, 2015, 10:27:44 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 03, 2015, 08:18:50 AM
How many mass shootings has there been in America this year?

There has been 355 mass shootings this year so far.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/the-san-bernardino-mass-shooting-is-the-second-today-and-the-355th-this-year/

wow.... more than 1 a day.....

you know what America needs, more guns!!!  ::) >:(
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 03, 2015, 11:40:39 AM
US 2015 mass shootings (4 people or more):

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/heres-a-map-of-all-the-mass-shootings-in-2015/ (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/heres-a-map-of-all-the-mass-shootings-in-2015/)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 03, 2015, 11:53:57 AM
Quote from: GJL on December 03, 2015, 11:06:45 AM
Kinder eggs are banned in America because they are too dangerous! :o

Correct. Luckily we have Polish shops in our neighbourhood which stock them.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Denn Forever on December 03, 2015, 12:09:10 PM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on December 03, 2015, 12:12:56 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on December 03, 2015, 12:09:10 PM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4

It's nearly too logical and straightforward for the average American to understand.

As has been mentioned before though I doubt he'd have finished the full set were he in Texas!!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 03, 2015, 04:31:20 PM
http://www.kpho.com/story/30644963/arpaio-calls-on-250k-armed-citizens-to-stop-terrorism-and-mass-shootings


What a great idea!!!!!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 06:17:33 PM
These people were either opposed to the American way of life or had embraced the American way of life. Same outcome either way.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 03, 2015, 07:06:33 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 06:17:33 PM
These people were either opposed to the American way of life or had embraced the American way of life. Same outcome either way.

Stop talking $hite......the number of Americans who commit mass murder is probably 1/100 of 1%
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 08:48:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 03, 2015, 07:06:33 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 06:17:33 PM
These people were either opposed to the American way of life or had embraced the American way of life. Same outcome either way.

Stop talking $hite......the number of Americans who commit mass murder is probably 1/100 of 1%

That wasn't quite my point. Americans believe people should keep an arsenal in their house. which isn't the case in other developed countries.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on December 04, 2015, 11:35:59 AM
Hey - very interesting article here. I know it comes from Salon which can be a very one eyed leftie site, but this is actually balanced in its critique of both sides of the argument and the statistics are actually stunning.

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/04/americas_gun_insanity_is_crazier_than_you_think_our_delusional_era_of_everyday_mass_shootings_and_record_low_crime_rates/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 04, 2015, 04:57:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 03, 2015, 04:31:20 PM
http://www.kpho.com/story/30644963/arpaio-calls-on-250k-armed-citizens-to-stop-terrorism-and-mass-shootings


What a great idea!!!!!!

A brilliant idea. Create peace by taking away the bad guy's advantage.

This concept could be used globally.

We should give the Palestinians 1,000 nuclear warheads and 100 F-16s. That would guarantee peace in the Middle East.

Syrians rebels should also get nukes, along with Ukranians, Georgians, Chechens, Republican dissidents and any active Loyalist terrorists.

Passengers on all flights should get a set of headphones and a Beretta in their seat pockets. No more hijackings then.

Considering the history of Croke Park, and the distance from the seats to the pitch, all fans should be handed M-16s on entry. Patrons of Hill 16 should also get a couple of grenades. You can't be safe enough these days.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on December 04, 2015, 05:42:15 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on December 04, 2015, 11:35:59 AM
Hey - very interesting article here. I know it comes from Salon which can be a very one eyed leftie site, but this is actually balanced in its critique of both sides of the argument and the statistics are actually stunning.

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/04/americas_gun_insanity_is_crazier_than_you_think_our_delusional_era_of_everyday_mass_shootings_and_record_low_crime_rates/

An excellent point well made but comes with a prelude of waffle and insults which you will have to wade through, but maybe he was tying to ironically illustrate his point by doing that?

I often make a similar point, weirdly enough at Thanksgiving as well, but I compare it to motor vehicle deaths, which are something like X3 times the murder death rate and largely non intentional. The effect is the progressives think Im pro gun and the righties think Im anti car. Whereas the reality is actually the opposite (on guns at least, more middle ground on cars)

But my point is that, remove the intend of murder deaths and you remove the death (largely) Unfortunately this is pretty much the same argument as the NRA "guns dont kill people, people do", which I believe to be a valid argument to murders but not against gun control. Anyway this leaves me alienated as a lunnie by both sides at worst, and standing on the fence at best. Where as Im just trying to come up with a proposal based on the facts we know and logic

But the dropping murder rate is an elephant in the room that fits neither sides perception so its ignored, the media have a lot to do with this polarising nature of politics in America and its the classic either or fallacy ( and probably a good few other fallacies to!) which is repeated over and over again and a range of political subjects.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 04, 2015, 06:26:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 03, 2015, 04:31:20 PM
http://www.kpho.com/story/30644963/arpaio-calls-on-250k-armed-citizens-to-stop-terrorism-and-mass-shootings


What a great idea!!!!!!

Yes, just what we need. Flustered, scared Joe Soaps whipping out their 45s adding more bullets in the mayhem.

"I didn't mean to shoot those three kids your honour, I was trying to stop the bad guy!"

About time that auld bastard headed for the nursing home!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: bennydorano on December 04, 2015, 10:15:53 PM
San Bernadino an Act of Terrorism. Strange one.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 04, 2015, 10:23:57 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 04, 2015, 10:15:53 PM
San Bernadino an Act of Terrorism. Strange one.

A Godsend for the gun industry.

This will encourage more people to get/carry guns.

Hillary will be staying away from this issue if she has any sense. Toxic for a politician.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 04, 2015, 10:42:42 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 04, 2015, 10:15:53 PM
San Bernadino an Act of Terrorism. Strange one.

IMHO it is a kind of Frankenstein synthesis between a local gun incident and terrorism. Yer man was a shooting enthusiast who didn't like his boss and his missus was connecting with Islamic loonies. Real terrorists might have had a different target, maybe somewhere high profile in LA. They will have done nothing for workplace relations in the US, these workers had a baby shower for these people a few months ago and they then come back and kill them.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 04, 2015, 11:07:06 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 04, 2015, 10:42:42 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 04, 2015, 10:15:53 PM
San Bernadino an Act of Terrorism. Strange one.

IMHO it is a kind of Frankenstein synthesis between a local gun incident and terrorism. Yer man was a shooting enthusiast who didn't like his boss and his missus was connecting with Islamic loonies. Real terrorists might have had a different target, maybe somewhere high profile in LA. They will have done nothing for workplace relations in the US, these workers had a baby shower for these people a few months ago and they then come back and kill them.

Not necessarily. It appears that IS has changed tack from Al Qaeda and is encouraging it's operatives to hit soft targets rather than blow up the big building approach. You can see why it would be more effective as well. The general public can t feel safe anywhere anymore and will start getting very nervous.
Hence the Godsend for the gun lobby. Ordinary people know the terrorists and assorted loonies and criminals are armed to the teeth anyway and they are told it might be better if gun laws for the general population are tightened up. How does Hillary or anybody else go about selling that? It would be political suicide.
Those people were active/on the run for at least 2 hours? the last day before they were stopped. That in itself would alarm many people. That's a lot of killing time.
  This seems be 100% terrorism. It was premeditated. It was not a result of an incidental row. They were wearing cameras and had combat gear on. They arrived at the party with guns and bombs.
Work place dispute? you don t bring your wife with loaded assault rifles to settle a work place dispute. Nor does one leave their 6 month old baby to get killed solving a work place dispute. People are delusional if they think this was anything but a well planned, and financed terrorist attack. The only difference with Paris is less involved and this guy known to those he killed. Soft opportunistic target.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 04, 2015, 11:14:15 PM
I'm not sure about the careful planning aspect of things. They drove home after the attack, why not attack somewhere else?

An attack was premeditated, the exact one was tied into the people involved.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on December 05, 2015, 12:36:38 AM
Whitey, as compelling as this argument sounds, many weapons used in killings in the US have been purchased legally.  I'm sure you've read that a couple of thousand of people on the no-fly list can still buy firearms legally.  Don't you think if they're considered too dangerous to take a flight they should be prohibited from amassing an arsenal.  According to the NY Times, the guns used in 15 recent mass shootings were bought legally, and at least 8 gunmen had criminal histories or documented mental health problems that did not prevent them from obtaining their weapons.  For the life of me, I don't understand why military grade assault rifles are readily for sale, yet marijuana is almost universally banned (another topic for another time). According to the Washington Post, over 75% ofthe weapons used in mass killings over the last 30 years had been purchased legally. 

Additionally, the world is aghast that 12 died in the Charlie Hebdo incident and 128 (I believe) in the recent Paris terrorist attack, but well over 82,000 have suffered gun deaths since Sandy Hook. 82,000 people, for crying out loud, and the response is to make guns more available rather than imposing rational common-sense regulations.

S%#t, I'm nervous about merging in traffic lest some gun-toting ass with anger issues thinks I cut him off.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 05, 2015, 12:42:40 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 04, 2015, 11:14:15 PM
I'm not sure about the careful planning aspect of things. They drove home after the attack, why not attack somewhere else?

An attack was premeditated, the exact one was tied into the people involved.

Well there must have been care and planning involved if they managed to make and conceal homemade bombs in their own house. Maybe you can buy guns in department stores in the US  but they hardly sell pipe bombs in Walmart.

It renders the agonising about gun laws obsolete and makes any politician that takes on the NRA look like a fool.

It also shows intelligence has failed. This will lead to more Americans buying firearms. Back in the day of McCarty and the communist scaremongering there were no Russians in the US coming to an event near you armed to the teeth. This event shows that there may be numerous cells - undetected and unexpected - that can strike anywhere, anytime. That is the ultimate terror for people.
Warfare has always evolved. The days of flying aeroplanes into buildings has gone. It has developed into a smaller focus but probably more terrifying tactic.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on December 05, 2015, 12:50:03 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

And the author is completely guilty of the misconception she decries in the sentence in bold. And does not have a handle on the facts. Illegally held weapons are a constant low grade problem. The mass shooters are using legally held weapons and the people using them are not career criminals. Given these facts, the logical conclusion is to limit the supply to the general population and let the police deal with career criminals and their illegally held weapons. Unfortunately the tone of debate in America now does not give precedence to things like logic and fact.

If people in America are scared by the possibility of terrorists/Muslims/refugees/mass shooters they should consider the rest of us looking in, absolutely petrified by what we see their society and political process coming to. It's scarier out here.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on December 05, 2015, 01:03:12 AM
this latest attack will see gun sales going through the roof again ,the Nra are running adds saying when the Devils come to your church or school or home be ready to send them to paradise
Obama is a disaster as far as most people I talk to think and however crazy people might think it is they believe he is not interested in protecting them . The usa is not Europe or Asia and people don't care how many mass shootings there is they are not giving up there guns .
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on December 05, 2015, 01:13:10 AM
And yet the odds of people being killed by a terrorist in the US are completely minuscule - and I remain to be convinced that the declaration of fealty on Facebok to IS makes you a fully paid up "terrorist", though I'll leave off judgement until the FBI investigation is finished.

But whatever their status, this couple were able to stock up completely legally with assault weapons and munitions and kill 14 people. The NRA are using the atrocities of their best customers to sell more guns to what Bill Hicks used to call, and now unfortunately seems to be entirely accurate, "Bovine America". Wayne LaPierre is one of the most odious creatures to have slithered his way across the national stage of the US, and now he seems intent on slouching his way towards Bethlehem.

If Americans want security at home, they need to give up their unfettered access to guns and leave the investigation and prevention of crime and terrorism to the experts. Not to a nation of concealed carry, paranoid Walter Mittys.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on December 05, 2015, 01:13:25 AM
Then, Gmac, it is up to you to make them understand that it has nothing to do with Obama but is the fault of an obstructionist Congress that is slave to very powerful lobbying interests, not least of which is the NRA.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on December 05, 2015, 01:19:51 AM
Just in case anyone thinks I'm over the top

https://www.nranews.com/series/freedoms-safest-place/video/freedoms-safest-place-demons-at-our-door/episode/freedoms-safest-place-season-1-episode-9-demons-at-our-door

To which the only sane response is - Wayne, I hate to break this to you, but you are actually Satan.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on December 05, 2015, 01:34:13 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on December 05, 2015, 01:13:25 AM
Then, Gmac, it is up to you to make them understand that it has nothing to do with Obama but is the fault of an obstructionist Congress that is slave to very powerful lobbying interests, not least of which is the NRA.
there opinion is as valid as mine which is somewhere in between tbh.
The media here really try to pit one side against the other one side saying Isis attacks are around the corner the other saying the killer in San bernadihno was being teased about his beard trying to justify reasons for doing it, it's unreal
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 05, 2015, 01:53:48 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on December 05, 2015, 12:50:03 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

And the author is completely guilty of the misconception she decries in the sentence in bold. And does not have a handle on the facts. Illegally held weapons are a constant low grade problem. The mass shooters are using legally held weapons and the people using them are not career criminals. Given these facts, the logical conclusion is to limit the supply to the general population and let the police deal with career criminals and their illegally held weapons. Unfortunately the tone of debate in America now does not give precedence to things like logic and fact.

If people in America are scared by the possibility of terrorists/Muslims/refugees/mass shooters they should consider the rest of us looking in, absolutely petrified by what we see their society and political process coming to. It's scarier out here.

You ve nailed it.... except .... the general population don't use their weapons on other people and those that want to, can get guns anyway. Asgard shipment back in the day and the IRA were never short of weapons even though they were illegal. Never mind modern criminals in this country still having no difficulty getting firearms. Mobs in Chicago in the 30's had more firepower than the police. If you want weapons and you have the motive and means you can get one, regardless if you are a loonie or a terrorist on a mission. FFS the Boston bombers made a horrible improvised bomb using stuff you get in a hard ware store and a bit of chemistry they could get online.
If the US and France can t prevent these types of attacks then forget about it.
Anyway this was not a loonie attack and like Paris has brought this game to a different level. Guns are not the problem. They are there to stay. You have as good a chance of limiting guns in the US as getting rid of TVs or mobile phones. Not going to happen so no point wasting time on that. Not a runner.


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 05, 2015, 01:58:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 05, 2015, 02:15:42 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 01:58:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 05, 2015, 02:29:38 AM
Quote from: moysider on December 05, 2015, 02:15:42 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 01:58:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 05, 2015, 02:38:35 AM
Just looked it up -you get a concealed carry permit from the local sheriff. Must be a six month resident, 18 years of age at least, and have a state issued id and show you can handle a weapon aND hAve had some training. Sheriff runs a basic check and all being good, you have your permit within 60 days. Permit is only needed in towns and cities.

That's it.

Any other gun you can just go in and buy, as long as you don't appear drunk or on drugs. No background checks or licenses or permits. No records. No limits on ammo or number of weapons.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 05, 2015, 02:43:10 AM
I've heard that you can buy/sell guns at yard sales down in TX....now that's fvckin madness!!

The fella who cuts my hair told me that he has about 20 guns. Rifles, shotguns, handguns....the lot...you name it he's got it. His view is that why should his constitutional rights be infringed upon when he has never broken any laws... "It's no ones fvckin business how many guns he has".

Anyway, these 2 w**kers out in TX also had pipe bombs, so even if they hadnt obtained firearms they would probably still have been able to kill people if they wanted.

The Marathon Bombers had pressure cooker bombs and one illegally held firearm. They killed 3 with the bombs and shot the MIT cop with the gun

I think if Obama overplays the gun angle on this one, and underplays the terrorist angle he's making a big mistake.

I don't have a gun, and I don't want one because I have kids in the house, but I know plenty who are thinking of getting one given the threat of executive action that's been rumourdd
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 05, 2015, 03:02:14 AM
http://buzzpo.com/new-york-sheriff-asks-citizens-to-carry-a-firearm-in-light-of-recent-events/?utm_content=buffer8cd51&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=positivelyrepublican

LOL...Democratic Sheriff of Ulster County asks for citizens who are licensed to carry their firearms with them at all times
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on December 05, 2015, 04:41:51 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 02:29:38 AM
Quote from: moysider on December 05, 2015, 02:15:42 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 01:58:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

:o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 05, 2015, 05:51:23 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 03:02:14 AM
http://buzzpo.com/new-york-sheriff-asks-citizens-to-carry-a-firearm-in-light-of-recent-events]

LOL...Democratic Sheriff of Ulster County asks for citizens who are licensed to carry their firearms with them at all times

Fecking Ulster people
(https://eurofree3.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/robbo-with-gun.jpg)

This idea that you can protect yourself against terrorists by packing guns is complete and utter bollix. People cannot be allowed bring guns to concerts and the like as they could be lunatics or might just be spaced out. I've expressed doubts as to the terrorist nature of the recent event, but if gun fan like this guy went to shot his workmates he'd simply shoot those with guns first. Real terrorists would simply use bombs or the like. The attacker always has the advantage in the timing, location, choice of weapons etc. Basically your easily obtained gun might be of some use if someone else with an easily obtained gun loses the plot, against a well planned attack it is feck all use.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on December 05, 2015, 08:54:46 AM
Quote from: TomFun on December 05, 2015, 07:05:19 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on December 05, 2015, 04:41:51 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 02:29:38 AM
Quote from: moysider on December 05, 2015, 02:15:42 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 01:58:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

:o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that

Batshit, just batshit. Come on what the fk. Perspective America. Guns bad :-\
Really disturbed how some Irish ex pats slip into the narrative after a few years over there, that this is anywhere approaching a 'normal' debate.

On a side note has anyone ever smelled bat urine? Horrible piercing smell, i dont think that it could ever really leave you if you smelt it properly once. When I read your post it reminded it of it and I could actually smell it again :(
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on December 05, 2015, 08:58:27 AM
Mental illness is a huge factor in US gun massacres. Wayne la Pierre on top and it's a mess.
But it'll never change. Violence is one of the major legacies of settler colonialism. No surprise that the Americas have the highest murder rates in the world.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 04:22:49 PM
"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 06, 2015, 04:41:20 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on December 05, 2015, 04:41:51 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 02:29:38 AM
Quote from: moysider on December 05, 2015, 02:15:42 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 01:58:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

:o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that

Not Arizona, but a similar type of mindset, at least in parts of the state in question.

And yes, I was not comfortable. My, at the time, 3 year old was removed from the situation whenever he went near them.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:32:30 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 06, 2015, 04:22:49 PM
"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

I dont agree with everything she said, but she was debating with someone who would confiscate every gun in the country if she had her way, a view that is just es extreme as hers (given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:36:55 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 04:41:20 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on December 05, 2015, 04:41:51 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 02:29:38 AM
Quote from: moysider on December 05, 2015, 02:15:42 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 01:58:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

:o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that

Not Arizona, but a similar type of mindset, at least in parts of the state in question.

And yes, I was not comfortable. My, at the time, 3 year old was removed from the situation whenever he went near them.

Theres a coffee shop next town over, and a plain clothes cop goes in there.  For some reason he always has his gun on his hip, and I always jump when I see it . I cant imagine being around numerous people at a cook out who were carrying....I think Id leave
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 05:52:12 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:32:30 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 06, 2015, 04:22:49 PM
"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

I dont agree with everything she said, but she was debating with someone who would confiscate every gun in the country if she had her way, a view that is just es extreme as hers (given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms)

This is the dogma right at the heart of the problem.

This was written into the constitution shortly after a war with the British Empire. Spain and France were also menacing colonial powers at the time, not to mention the risk of attack from the south and the various tribes of Indians. The US population at the time was 3 million. The world was a dangerous place for the fledgling country at the time. It made sense for citizens, particularly in remote areas with poor access and communications, to protect themselves.

None of the above applies now. The biggest danger to citizens in the US is either car crashes, or a gun owner who is either careless or has just had a bad day or has some sort of disorder.

It is simply incredible that one of the most popular arguments to deal with the mass-murders and high level of gun crime, is to demand a return to days of the Wild West.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 05:54:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:36:55 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 04:41:20 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on December 05, 2015, 04:41:51 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 02:29:38 AM
Quote from: moysider on December 05, 2015, 02:15:42 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 01:58:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

:o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that

Not Arizona, but a similar type of mindset, at least in parts of the state in question.

And yes, I was not comfortable. My, at the time, 3 year old was removed from the situation whenever he went near them.

Theres a coffee shop next town over, and a plain clothes cop goes in there.  For some reason he always has his gun on his hip, and I always jump when I see it . I cant imagine being around numerous people at a cook out who were carrying....I think Id leave

So would I.

I don't like seeing cops carrying them either, but in some countries this is a necessary evil.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 06, 2015, 06:16:27 PM
Check out the guns laws in the state that just had 14 killed and 27 injured, makes for some interesting reading and I am no pro gun advocate.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 06:24:48 PM
Quote from: stew on December 06, 2015, 06:16:27 PM
Check out the guns laws in the state that just had 14 killed and 27 injured, makes for some interesting reading and I am no pro gun advocate.

Can you post them up please?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 06, 2015, 06:34:00 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 06, 2015, 05:52:12 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:32:30 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 06, 2015, 04:22:49 PM
"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

I dont agree with everything she said, but she was debating with someone who would confiscate every gun in the country if she had her way, a view that is just es extreme as hers (given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms)

This is the dogma right at the heart of the problem.

This was written into the constitution shortly after a war with the British Empire. Spain and France were also menacing colonial powers at the time, not to mention the risk of attack from the south and the various tribes of Indians. The US population at the time was 3 million. The world was a dangerous place for the fledgling country at the time. It made sense for citizens, particularly in remote areas with poor access and communications, to protect themselves.

None of the above applies now. The biggest danger to citizens in the US is either car crashes, or a gun owner who is either careless or has just had a bad day or has some sort of disorder.

It is simply incredible that one of the most popular arguments to deal with the mass-murders and high level of gun crime, is to demand a return to days of the Wild West.

Legal minds well above your and mines pay grade, have affirmed this right so unless the constitution gets amended, it's not going anywhere.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 06:37:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 06, 2015, 06:34:00 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 06, 2015, 05:52:12 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:32:30 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 06, 2015, 04:22:49 PM
"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

I dont agree with everything she said, but she was debating with someone who would confiscate every gun in the country if she had her way, a view that is just es extreme as hers (given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms)

This is the dogma right at the heart of the problem.

This was written into the constitution shortly after a war with the British Empire. Spain and France were also menacing colonial powers at the time, not to mention the risk of attack from the south and the various tribes of Indians. The US population at the time was 3 million. The world was a dangerous place for the fledgling country at the time. It made sense for citizens, particularly in remote areas with poor access and communications, to protect themselves.

None of the above applies now. The biggest danger to citizens in the US is either car crashes, or a gun owner who is either careless or has just had a bad day or has some sort of disorder.

It is simply incredible that one of the most popular arguments to deal with the mass-murders and high level of gun crime, is to demand a return to days of the Wild West.

Legal minds well above your and mines pay grade, have affirmed this right so unless the constitution gets amended, it's not going anywhere.

People said the same thing about gay marriage.

And condoms in Ireland.

Apartheid in SA.

Slavery.

Everything changes. The only question is when.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 06, 2015, 06:46:12 PM
You are right muppet, change is the only constant in life, as we speak Muslim extremists are entering the USA under this Muslim centric President, a man who tells the world he is sending in a handful of his finest to work in a war zone, a man who cannot bring himself to call it what it is, extremist Muslim terrorists are trying to destroy the western way of life.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 06:53:25 PM
Quote from: stew on December 06, 2015, 06:46:12 PM
You are right muppet, change is the only constant in life, as we speak Muslim extremists are entering the USA under this Muslim centric President, a man who tells the world he is sending in a handful of his finest to work in a war zone, a man who cannot bring himself to call it what it is, extremist Muslim terrorists are trying to destroy the western way of life.

But surely they were shocked and awed by the last Republican leadership?

Surely mission was accomplished?

Let's face it Stew, you are far more likely to be killed by someone you pass every day, than by a Muslim terrorist.

But I do agree they are making some headway. The sheer terror oozing from some of your posts is evidence of that. That is the goal of terrorism and you are inadvertently aiding them, with comments like they are 'trying to destroy the western way of life' etc.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 06, 2015, 07:08:23 PM
Muppet, it is in their DNA you cannot deny that it is Muslim extremists that attacked California and Paris can you? The c***ts want us all dead, not just us conservatives, they want you dead too dear.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 06, 2015, 07:13:35 PM
WTF has you are more likely to be killed by someone you pass every day than by a muslim terrorist got to do with anything,  they are stabbing people like you muppet, they are killing the weakest in western society muppet, why do you focus on the right when the extremist Muslim terrorists want to kill up ass? Answers on a postcard please!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 08:08:29 PM
Quote from: stew on December 06, 2015, 07:08:23 PM
Muppet, it is in their DNA you cannot deny that it is Muslim extremists that attacked California and Paris can you? The c***ts want us all dead, not just us conservatives, they want you dead too dear.

Of course they want you dead.

And yes maybe even me too.

After all, Bush Snr bombed them back to the Iron Age.

And then his son bombed them back to the Stone Age.

Out of both of those events, mad bunches of terrorist nut jobs appeared. They will have the odd fleeting 'success' but they are no threat whatsoever to 99.9999% of us. I will live my life exactly as I would have lived it anyway.

You can scream how terrified you are, and even scream at us that we should be terrified too. But I would see that another fleeting success for the terrorists. So I couldn't be bothered worrying about them.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 08:17:40 PM
Quote from: stew on December 06, 2015, 07:13:35 PM
WTF has you are more likely to be killed by someone you pass every day than by a muslim terrorist got to do with anything,  they are stabbing people like you muppet, they are killing the weakest in western society muppet, why do you focus on the right when the extremist Muslim terrorists want to kill up ass? Answers on a postcard please!

Do you know how many people in the US die every year from car accidents?
Do you know how many people in the US die from non-terrorist violence?

Do you know how many people in the US die from Muslim terrorist attacks?

Seriously, do you have any idea of the numbers involved in the above?

Answers on a postcard yourself.

As for why do I focus in the right right. The Neo-Cons fought the two wars in Iraq, for no obvious reason other than to protect their oil interests. Wars always have long term consequences. ISIS is a direct consequence of your elected Neo-Cons actions in the 2nd Iraq War. Former US ally, Al Queda's war on the West was arguably a result of the 1st Iraq War.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on December 06, 2015, 08:35:01 PM
Quote from: stew on December 06, 2015, 07:13:35 PM
WTF has you are more likely to be killed by someone you pass every day than by a muslim terrorist got to do with anything,  they are stabbing people like you muppet, they are killing the weakest in western society muppet, why do you focus on the right when the extremist Muslim terrorists want to kill up ass? Answers on a postcard please!

Stew, you might want to recalibrate your hysteria meter. The extremist muslims (if it's shown that San Bernardino was indeed a Jihadist attack) have managed to kill 17 of you so far this year. Seventeen too many, but paltry by comparison with the 4481 slaughtered in mass shootings in the USA by down-home, gun-toting, second amendment beneficiaries. Even paltrier by comparison with the 1,0482 shot by the police (and no, I'm not suggesting these were all innocent - just quoting another statistic). I don't have a word to compare it with the total of 12,3133who have died in gun violence so far this year.

So if you want to be terrified, even just about mass killings, worry about your muslim neighbour 26 times less than about yer man walking out of your local gun shop with an AK47 or a bazooka or whatever is on special this week.

1. http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015 (http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015)
2. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database)
3. http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/ (http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on December 06, 2015, 08:46:41 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 04:41:20 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on December 05, 2015, 04:41:51 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 02:29:38 AM
Quote from: moysider on December 05, 2015, 02:15:42 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 05, 2015, 01:58:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

:o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that

Not Arizona, but a similar type of mindset, at least in parts of the state in question.

And yes, I was not comfortable. My, at the time, 3 year old was removed from the situation whenever he went near them.

Is this your inlaws Christmas card J70? :P

(http://www.reviewjournal.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/media/merryfiore2.jpg?itok=ER_2zpO0)

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on December 06, 2015, 09:30:04 PM
It's probably the Stews.
Excellent post by Hardy by the way.
Pity you hadn't the number of Syrians killed so far this year.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 06, 2015, 10:29:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 06, 2015, 09:30:04 PM
It's probably the Stews.
Excellent post by Hardy by the way.
Pity you hadn't the number of Syrians killed so far this year.

Bottom line is that many of the murders occurr in almost exclusviely black inner city neighborhoods, where white people would never go in a million years. They are drug and gang related and by no means random. When the people who are murdered dont look like you.....many people dont care

Homicide rate for white gun mad Americans is 2.5 per 100,000

Total homicide rate in Ireland is 1.1 per 100,000


Just to give you alittle perspective

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/black-americans-are-killed-at-12-times-the-rate-of-people-in-other-developed-countries/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on December 06, 2015, 11:30:47 PM
Muslim centric president ffs. Ironically, the appropriate response to that is "Jesus Christ!".
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 06, 2015, 11:39:34 PM
I think after 9/11 they should have allowed the sale of anti aircraft missiles.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 07, 2015, 12:23:23 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:32:30 PM
given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms

Let me just remind every one is it is an interpretation of AN AMENDMENT to the US constitution, that is deemed to give you the right to bear arms.

And just to mess with you- there's actually a couple of versions of the amendment in question, and a lot of debate has occurred on the importance of the first part of the text referring to a well regulated militia.

this is the version that was passed by Congress and kept with the rest of the original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights as prepared by William Lambert

QuoteA well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

However the version that Jefferson had ratified by the states read as below:

QuoteA well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed 

So that's clear as mud then and prone to the interpretation of the grammar nazis as well as everybody else. You could ask what constitutes a well regulated militia, and do people only have the right to bear arms in that militia?

Amend the amendment would seem to be the sensible idea. That happened with prohibition so there is precedent.

oh and so far in 2015 26 people have been killed by lightning in the US. 22 people have been killed by cows. NRA would do well to look into this.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on December 07, 2015, 12:30:45 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 06, 2015, 09:30:04 PM
Pity you hadn't the number of Syrians killed so far this year.

I should have made that point. The major statistic is that about 187,000 civilians were killed in Syria in the four-and-a-half years from March 2011 to October 2015 and that, of those, killings by the Syrian regime outnumber those by all other actors by more than an order of magnitude: http://sn4hr.org/wp-content/pdf/english/Who_Are_Killing_Civilians_in_Syria_en.pdf (http://sn4hr.org/wp-content/pdf/english/Who_Are_Killing_Civilians_in_Syria_en.pdf)

In the context of the Jihadist killings of civilians in the West, it's worth noting that the number of of civilians killed in Syria by International Coalition forces between March 2011 and October 2015 is 251.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 07, 2015, 01:06:56 AM
Quote from: heganboy on December 07, 2015, 12:23:23 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:32:30 PM
given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms

Let me just remind every one is it is an interpretation of AN AMENDMENT to the US constitution, that is deemed to give you the right to bear arms.

And just to mess with you- there's actually a couple of versions of the amendment in question, and a lot of debate has occurred on the importance of the first part of the text referring to a well regulated militia.

this is the version that was passed by Congress and kept with the rest of the original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights as prepared by William Lambert

QuoteA well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

However the version that Jefferson had ratified by the states read as below:

QuoteA well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed 

So that's clear as mud then and prone to the interpretation of the grammar nazis as well as everybody else. You could ask what constitutes a well regulated militia, and do people only have the right to bear arms in that militia?

Amend the amendment would seem to be the sensible idea. That happened with prohibition so there is precedent.

oh and so far in 2015 26 people have been killed by lightning in the US. 22 people have been killed by cows. NRA would do well to look into this.

Interesting, but I'd be surprised if it was changed in my lifetime. 

The popluar interpretation of the second ammendment has been upheld, and some would say strengthened by recent Supreme Court rulings
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on December 07, 2015, 02:06:44 AM
Quote from: heganboy on December 07, 2015, 12:23:23 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:32:30 PM
given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms

Let me just remind every one is it is an interpretation of AN AMENDMENT to the US constitution, that is deemed to give you the right to bear arms.

And just to mess with you- there's actually a couple of versions of the amendment in question, and a lot of debate has occurred on the importance of the first part of the text referring to a well regulated militia.

this is the version that was passed by Congress and kept with the rest of the original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights as prepared by William Lambert

QuoteA well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

However the version that Jefferson had ratified by the states read as below:

QuoteA well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed 

So that's clear as mud then and prone to the interpretation of the grammar nazis as well as everybody else. You could ask what constitutes a well regulated militia, and do people only have the right to bear arms in that militia?

Amend the amendment would seem to be the sensible idea. That happened with prohibition so there is precedent.


I think people don't know/understand what has to happen for an amendment to be repealed  It's ridiculously tough, and right now there would be nowhere near enough support in enough states (neither general population nor elected reps) for repeal of the second amendment.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 07, 2015, 03:44:09 AM
In fairness a gun could be used to stop a rogue cow. This may be an excuse for anyone near a cow.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: rrhf on December 07, 2015, 07:25:29 AM
A bit like the quran open to interpretation.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 08, 2015, 01:54:55 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 08, 2015, 01:54:55 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 10, 2015, 03:14:16 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 08, 2015, 01:54:55 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Yeah....they're fvckin assholes and I'm glad they're dead
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 11:04:48 AM
I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)
[/quote]

Yeah....they're fvckin assholes and I'm glad they're dead
[/quote]

Was the police officer shot in the head, yes or no?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on December 10, 2015, 11:25:40 AM
Good Jesus Seamus- it is a fake news report. They start with a BBC logo, but it is not a BBC report nor was it posted by the BBC website. They quote one "gun expert" and worst of all, when they say that "mainstream media" are now picking up on it, they post a Google page of headlines, the first one of which says "Charlie Hebdo a False Flag operation....says David Icke"!!!

In actual fact this is such a poor attempt at emulating mainstream coverage you could reasonably conclude that it is a false flag operation aimed at discrediting web theories about false flag operations. Which makes it a false flag about a false flag about a false flag, and makes you deluded for giving it any credence.

Though it probably was the lizard people in end.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 10, 2015, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 08, 2015, 01:54:55 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Don't have an opinion either way on the false flag allegation regarding the Charlie Hebdo policeman murder as I've not looked at the details.

But let's assume for the minute that its true - what does that have to do with the response in San Bernadino?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 11, 2015, 02:11:27 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on December 10, 2015, 11:25:40 AM
Good Jesus Seamus- it is a fake news report. They start with a BBC logo, but it is not a BBC report nor was it posted by the BBC website. They quote one "gun expert" and worst of all, when they say that "mainstream media" are now picking up on it, they post a Google page of headlines, the first one of which says "Charlie Hebdo a False Flag operation....says David Icke"!!!

In actual fact this is such a poor attempt at emulating mainstream coverage you could reasonably conclude that it is a false flag operation aimed at discrediting web theories about false flag operations. Which makes it a false flag about a false flag about a false flag, and makes you deluded for giving it any credence.

Though it probably was the lizard people in end.

I guess the Daily Mirror are in on the act as well
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/charlie-hebdo-terror-attack-sickening-4935314 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/charlie-hebdo-terror-attack-sickening-4935314)

Who cares whether that BBC site is a fake or not, I certainly don't as that site had the uncensored version of the video and THE only reason I used it. This is the same video that mainstream media were touting as proof that a police officer was murdered, now seemingly always censured because they were caught out in the lie.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 11, 2015, 02:37:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 10, 2015, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 08, 2015, 01:54:55 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Don't have an opinion either way on the false flag allegation regarding the Charlie Hebdo policeman murder as I've not looked at the details.

But let's assume for the minute that its true - what does that have to do with the response in San Bernadino?

There are a number of common denominators in most of the atrocities where either terrorists, a lone gunman or multiple gunmen/women are accused. Drills is one of the common denominators.


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on December 11, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on December 11, 2015, 09:58:56 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 11, 2015, 02:11:27 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on December 10, 2015, 11:25:40 AM
Good Jesus Seamus- it is a fake news report. They start with a BBC logo, but it is not a BBC report nor was it posted by the BBC website. They quote one "gun expert" and worst of all, when they say that "mainstream media" are now picking up on it, they post a Google page of headlines, the first one of which says "Charlie Hebdo a False Flag operation....says David Icke"!!!

In actual fact this is such a poor attempt at emulating mainstream coverage you could reasonably conclude that it is a false flag operation aimed at discrediting web theories about false flag operations. Which makes it a false flag about a false flag about a false flag, and makes you deluded for giving it any credence.

Though it probably was the lizard people in end.

I guess the Daily Mirror are in on the act as well
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/charlie-hebdo-terror-attack-sickening-4935314 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/charlie-hebdo-terror-attack-sickening-4935314)

Who cares whether that BBC site is a fake or not, I certainly don't as that site had the uncensored version of the video and THE only reason I used it. This is the same video that mainstream media were touting as proof that a police officer was murdered, now seemingly always censured because they were caught out in the lie.

Seamus, here's the thing - if the angle of the bullet entering meant that there was no exit wound or an exit wound in the clothes of the officer, then there would be no blood splatter. That is called physics. And I'm not even a "gun expert".

But you see what has happened here? I've been drawn into discussing the death of a fellow human being, in a horrendous manner, as a debating point with you on an internet board. It is obvious to me that you can in no way empathise with the fate of this poor man - that you cannot concede that if there is even a chance of it being true, you are further degrading this man in death and erasing his life (what does it matter, it was a false flag, eh?)

The Daily Mail took down the video not as some part of a conspiracy that you have uncovered (in the process validating your superiority over the rest of us mindless drones) but rather to grant to this man and his family the dignity of not having the entire world see his terrible last moments. Dignity that every human being deserves.

I won't be responding to you on this matter again, but i'd recommend to everyone that they read "the Pyschopath Test" by Jon Ronson and the chapter on Rachel North, a victim of the 7/7 London bombings and her experience with internet conspiracy theorists.

Now, back on with my tinfoil hat - the lizard people are coming.



Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 11, 2015, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 11, 2015, 02:37:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 10, 2015, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 08, 2015, 01:54:55 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Don't have an opinion either way on the false flag allegation regarding the Charlie Hebdo policeman murder as I've not looked at the details.

But let's assume for the minute that its true - what does that have to do with the response in San Bernadino?

There are a number of common denominators in most of the atrocities where either terrorists, a lone gunman or multiple gunmen/women are accused. Drills is one of the common denominators.

Drills?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on December 11, 2015, 02:21:36 PM
I thought they used Kalashnikovs and the like?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GJL on December 11, 2015, 05:16:15 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: GJL on December 11, 2015, 05:16:15 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:11:02 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: GJL on December 11, 2015, 05:16:15 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:29:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:11:02 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: GJL on December 11, 2015, 05:16:15 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.

The people will NEVER give up their weapons, NEVER, it would be akin to the reaction the loyalist community would have if the Brits declared they were pulling out of Ireland, the hard liners would fight to the death to be allowed the right to bear arms, even semi automatics, a good friend of mine is one of the top surgeons in the midwest, he assures me when we argue this topic that he will never, under any circumstances give up the right to bear arms and nor will any of his family or friends.

The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up, the students of Ivy league schools protesting about their lot, students demanding they have a say in who becomes Dean at their University, the cry of racism over anyone who tells it like it is, Black lives matter and the way the go after the cops but when a gang member shoots dead a child in a gang war in Chicago they do not protest that, why? because they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the dickhead who stared at the cop for three minutes.  The bastards in Black lives matter were pissed off no end because they lost air time when the Paris attacks happened.

Clinton is going to be President I believe, she had an opportunity to say all lives matter, she pandered to the black vote, I was saddened by this because I thought she might have some sense of decency, she does not, black people have the right to protest but I wish they would focus on all crimes against their race, not just focus on the cops, 'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go.

Back to guns, this country was formed on the right to bear arms, guns have always played a huge role in the United States, NRA men say that their dads taught them how to shoot and how to treat a gun, they hunted in freezing weather, playing cards and drinking Beer in a cabin with friends and built memories like killing their first deer and their grandfather taught the father, it is ingrained in these people and there is no winning them over, simple as that.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:33:19 PM
In short in relation to my last post.................................................... I believe America to be fucked and I blame the last two Presidents for it being so!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:29:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:11:02 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: GJL on December 11, 2015, 05:16:15 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.

The people will NEVER give up their weapons, NEVER, it would be akin to the reaction the loyalist community would have if the Brits declared they were pulling out of Ireland, the hard liners would fight to the death to be allowed the right to bear arms, even semi automatics, a good friend of mine is one of the top surgeons in the midwest, he assures me when we argue this topic that he will never, under any circumstances give up the right to bear arms and nor will any of his family or friends.

The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up, the students of Ivy league schools protesting about their lot, students demanding they have a say in who becomes Dean at their University, the cry of racism over anyone who tells it like it is, Black lives matter and the way the go after the cops but when a gang member shoots dead a child in a gang war in Chicago they do not protest that, why? because they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the d**khead who stared at the cop for three minutes.  The b**tards in Black lives matter were pissed off no end because they lost air time when the Paris attacks happened.

Clinton is going to be President I believe, she had an opportunity to say all lives matter, she pandered to the black vote, I was saddened by this because I thought she might have some sense of decency, she does not, black people have the right to protest but I wish they would focus on all crimes against their race, not just focus on the cops, 'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go.

Back to guns, this country was formed on the right to bear arms, guns have always played a huge role in the United States, NRA men say that their dads taught them how to shoot and how to treat a gun, they hunted in freezing weather, playing cards and drinking Beer in a cabin with friends and built memories like killing their first deer and their grandfather taught the father, it is ingrained in these people and there is no winning them over, simple as that.

Unionists said they would never go into Government with Sinn Féin. That changed.

France was a monarchy just like Britain. That changed.

People fought a Civil War in the US to (among other reasons) defend the right to own slaves. That changed.

The Republic of Ireland was a completely Catholic Country:

(http://i.imgur.com/PkAfjOA.jpg)

That thankfully has changed.

If we were all born Conservatives, we would still be living in caves. Things always change.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 11, 2015, 07:55:45 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:29:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:11:02 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: GJL on December 11, 2015, 05:16:15 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.

The people will NEVER give up their weapons, NEVER, it would be akin to the reaction the loyalist community would have if the Brits declared they were pulling out of Ireland, the hard liners would fight to the death to be allowed the right to bear arms, even semi automatics, a good friend of mine is one of the top surgeons in the midwest, he assures me when we argue this topic that he will never, under any circumstances give up the right to bear arms and nor will any of his family or friends.

The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up, the students of Ivy league schools protesting about their lot, students demanding they have a say in who becomes Dean at their University, the cry of racism over anyone who tells it like it is, Black lives matter and the way the go after the cops but when a gang member shoots dead a child in a gang war in Chicago they do not protest that, why? because they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the d**khead who stared at the cop for three minutes.  The b**tards in Black lives matter were pissed off no end because they lost air time when the Paris attacks happened.

Clinton is going to be President I believe, she had an opportunity to say all lives matter, she pandered to the black vote, I was saddened by this because I thought she might have some sense of decency, she does not, black people have the right to protest but I wish they would focus on all crimes against their race, not just focus on the cops, 'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go.

Back to guns, this country was formed on the right to bear arms, guns have always played a huge role in the United States, NRA men say that their dads taught them how to shoot and how to treat a gun, they hunted in freezing weather, playing cards and drinking Beer in a cabin with friends and built memories like killing their first deer and their grandfather taught the father, it is ingrained in these people and there is no winning them over, simple as that.

I agree completely on the guns, but give it up on the "All Lives Matter" crap. The only purpose of that phrase is to diminish and delegitimize the black experience at the hands of the police over the years. Until someone produces stats showing that whites suffer the same way, its just more white resentment politics. Some idiots on BLM protests taking their rhetoric too far doesn't change that.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on December 11, 2015, 08:52:08 PM
The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up

they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the d**khead who stared at the cop for three minutes

'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go


I dunno, anyone else seeing the irony here?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:00:59 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:29:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:11:02 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: GJL on December 11, 2015, 05:16:15 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.

The people will NEVER give up their weapons, NEVER, it would be akin to the reaction the loyalist community would have if the Brits declared they were pulling out of Ireland, the hard liners would fight to the death to be allowed the right to bear arms, even semi automatics, a good friend of mine is one of the top surgeons in the midwest, he assures me when we argue this topic that he will never, under any circumstances give up the right to bear arms and nor will any of his family or friends.

The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up, the students of Ivy league schools protesting about their lot, students demanding they have a say in who becomes Dean at their University, the cry of racism over anyone who tells it like it is, Black lives matter and the way the go after the cops but when a gang member shoots dead a child in a gang war in Chicago they do not protest that, why? because they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the d**khead who stared at the cop for three minutes.  The b**tards in Black lives matter were pissed off no end because they lost air time when the Paris attacks happened.

Clinton is going to be President I believe, she had an opportunity to say all lives matter, she pandered to the black vote, I was saddened by this because I thought she might have some sense of decency, she does not, black people have the right to protest but I wish they would focus on all crimes against their race, not just focus on the cops, 'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go.

Back to guns, this country was formed on the right to bear arms, guns have always played a huge role in the United States, NRA men say that their dads taught them how to shoot and how to treat a gun, they hunted in freezing weather, playing cards and drinking Beer in a cabin with friends and built memories like killing their first deer and their grandfather taught the father, it is ingrained in these people and there is no winning them over, simple as that.

Unionists said they would never go into Government with Sinn Féin. That changed.

France was a monarchy just like Britain. That changed.

People fought a Civil War in the US to (among other reasons) defend the right to own slaves. That changed.

The Republic of Ireland was a completely Catholic Country:

(http://i.imgur.com/PkAfjOA.jpg)

That thankfully has changed.

If we were all born Conservatives, we would still be living in caves. Things always change.

I was not born a conservative, in fact my favorite politician in Britain was, and always will be Tony Benn. I came over to this country a democrat, having live in the states and not just pontificated about the Country like many on here I changed based on  life experiences I had over a period of 20 years.

You are right things do change but do you really think the Loyalists would accept a United Ireland?

If you live to be a hundred, you will never ever see weapons taken out of the hands of the people in the United States of America, never! Even if the law changes the people will rise up and fight that change, just as the constitution tells them to when they consider the Government interferes with their rights.

It's called diversity, both in people and in critical thinking of the leaders elected by the people, you need liberals, you need conservatives, you do not seem able to grasp that concept, like a caveman you seem to equate Liberal good Conservative bad, if so I am glad you are not in office.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:08:56 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:00:59 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:29:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:11:02 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: GJL on December 11, 2015, 05:16:15 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.

The people will NEVER give up their weapons, NEVER, it would be akin to the reaction the loyalist community would have if the Brits declared they were pulling out of Ireland, the hard liners would fight to the death to be allowed the right to bear arms, even semi automatics, a good friend of mine is one of the top surgeons in the midwest, he assures me when we argue this topic that he will never, under any circumstances give up the right to bear arms and nor will any of his family or friends.

The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up, the students of Ivy league schools protesting about their lot, students demanding they have a say in who becomes Dean at their University, the cry of racism over anyone who tells it like it is, Black lives matter and the way the go after the cops but when a gang member shoots dead a child in a gang war in Chicago they do not protest that, why? because they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the d**khead who stared at the cop for three minutes.  The b**tards in Black lives matter were pissed off no end because they lost air time when the Paris attacks happened.

Clinton is going to be President I believe, she had an opportunity to say all lives matter, she pandered to the black vote, I was saddened by this because I thought she might have some sense of decency, she does not, black people have the right to protest but I wish they would focus on all crimes against their race, not just focus on the cops, 'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go.

Back to guns, this country was formed on the right to bear arms, guns have always played a huge role in the United States, NRA men say that their dads taught them how to shoot and how to treat a gun, they hunted in freezing weather, playing cards and drinking Beer in a cabin with friends and built memories like killing their first deer and their grandfather taught the father, it is ingrained in these people and there is no winning them over, simple as that.

Unionists said they would never go into Government with Sinn Féin. That changed.

France was a monarchy just like Britain. That changed.

People fought a Civil War in the US to (among other reasons) defend the right to own slaves. That changed.

The Republic of Ireland was a completely Catholic Country:

(http://i.imgur.com/PkAfjOA.jpg)

That thankfully has changed.

If we were all born Conservatives, we would still be living in caves. Things always change.

I was not born a conservative, in fact my favorite politician in Britain was, and always will be Tony Benn. I came over to this country a democrat, having live in the states and not just pontificated about the Country like many on here I changed based on  life experiences I had over a period of 20 years.

You are right things do change but do you really think the Loyalists would accept a United Ireland?

If you live to be a hundred, you will never ever see weapons taken out of the hands of the people in the United States of America, never! Even if the law changes the people will rise up and fight that change, just as the constitution tells them to when they consider the Government interferes with their rights.

It's called diversity, both in people and in critical thinking of the leaders elected by the people, you need liberals, you need conservatives, you do not seem able to grasp that concept, like a caveman you seem to equate Liberal good Conservative bad, if so I am glad you are not in office.

Again your post is completely hypocritical.

What you are saying is the liberals are ok until they pass laws you don't like. Then you will impeach, repeal or simply go to war. You only 'need' liberals to pretend you are in favour of democracy.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:15:54 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:08:56 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:00:59 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:29:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:11:02 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: GJL on December 11, 2015, 05:16:15 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.

The people will NEVER give up their weapons, NEVER, it would be akin to the reaction the loyalist community would have if the Brits declared they were pulling out of Ireland, the hard liners would fight to the death to be allowed the right to bear arms, even semi automatics, a good friend of mine is one of the top surgeons in the midwest, he assures me when we argue this topic that he will never, under any circumstances give up the right to bear arms and nor will any of his family or friends.

The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up, the students of Ivy league schools protesting about their lot, students demanding they have a say in who becomes Dean at their University, the cry of racism over anyone who tells it like it is, Black lives matter and the way the go after the cops but when a gang member shoots dead a child in a gang war in Chicago they do not protest that, why? because they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the d**khead who stared at the cop for three minutes.  The b**tards in Black lives matter were pissed off no end because they lost air time when the Paris attacks happened.

Clinton is going to be President I believe, she had an opportunity to say all lives matter, she pandered to the black vote, I was saddened by this because I thought she might have some sense of decency, she does not, black people have the right to protest but I wish they would focus on all crimes against their race, not just focus on the cops, 'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go.

Back to guns, this country was formed on the right to bear arms, guns have always played a huge role in the United States, NRA men say that their dads taught them how to shoot and how to treat a gun, they hunted in freezing weather, playing cards and drinking Beer in a cabin with friends and built memories like killing their first deer and their grandfather taught the father, it is ingrained in these people and there is no winning them over, simple as that.

Unionists said they would never go into Government with Sinn Féin. That changed.

France was a monarchy just like Britain. That changed.

People fought a Civil War in the US to (among other reasons) defend the right to own slaves. That changed.

The Republic of Ireland was a completely Catholic Country:

(http://i.imgur.com/PkAfjOA.jpg)

That thankfully has changed.

If we were all born Conservatives, we would still be living in caves. Things always change.

I was not born a conservative, in fact my favorite politician in Britain was, and always will be Tony Benn. I came over to this country a democrat, having live in the states and not just pontificated about the Country like many on here I changed based on  life experiences I had over a period of 20 years.

You are right things do change but do you really think the Loyalists would accept a United Ireland?

If you live to be a hundred, you will never ever see weapons taken out of the hands of the people in the United States of America, never! Even if the law changes the people will rise up and fight that change, just as the constitution tells them to when they consider the Government interferes with their rights.

It's called diversity, both in people and in critical thinking of the leaders elected by the people, you need liberals, you need conservatives, you do not seem able to grasp that concept, like a caveman you seem to equate Liberal good Conservative bad, if so I am glad you are not in office.

Again your post is completely hypocritical.

What you are saying is the liberals are ok until they pass laws you don't like. Then you will impeach, repeal or simply go to war. You only 'need' liberals to pretend you are in favour of democracy.

Absolutely not what I am saying, what I am saying is that you need people to hold differing values, skill sets and political ideals and show me where I said anything about impeach, repeal or go to war? Are you on drugs ffs?

WTF is your comment on democracy about? Do you think I am anti Democracy? There's wiser in the looney bin!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 11, 2015, 09:22:11 PM
I presume the point is that you claimed that gun owners were anti democracy, as they wouldn't respect the law if it was changed. Fact is, ISIS and NRA both put their religion before democracy.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:25:21 PM
This is YOUR argument. Do you understand the words you yourself wrote?

"If you live to be a hundred, you will never ever see weapons taken out of the hands of the people in the United States of America, never!"

"Even if the law changes the people will rise up and fight that change".


Like I said, democratic when it suits.

But most people here know it is all talk anyway. The outrage at the constant mass-murders will eventually reach a critical mass and cop on will eventually overcome GOP pay-offs by the NRA.


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:25:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:08:56 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:00:59 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:29:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:11:02 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: GJL on December 11, 2015, 05:16:15 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.

The people will NEVER give up their weapons, NEVER, it would be akin to the reaction the loyalist community would have if the Brits declared they were pulling out of Ireland, the hard liners would fight to the death to be allowed the right to bear arms, even semi automatics, a good friend of mine is one of the top surgeons in the midwest, he assures me when we argue this topic that he will never, under any circumstances give up the right to bear arms and nor will any of his family or friends.

The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up, the students of Ivy league schools protesting about their lot, students demanding they have a say in who becomes Dean at their University, the cry of racism over anyone who tells it like it is, Black lives matter and the way the go after the cops but when a gang member shoots dead a child in a gang war in Chicago they do not protest that, why? because they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the d**khead who stared at the cop for three minutes.  The b**tards in Black lives matter were pissed off no end because they lost air time when the Paris attacks happened.

Clinton is going to be President I believe, she had an opportunity to say all lives matter, she pandered to the black vote, I was saddened by this because I thought she might have some sense of decency, she does not, black people have the right to protest but I wish they would focus on all crimes against their race, not just focus on the cops, 'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go.

Back to guns, this country was formed on the right to bear arms, guns have always played a huge role in the United States, NRA men say that their dads taught them how to shoot and how to treat a gun, they hunted in freezing weather, playing cards and drinking Beer in a cabin with friends and built memories like killing their first deer and their grandfather taught the father, it is ingrained in these people and there is no winning them over, simple as that.

Unionists said they would never go into Government with Sinn Féin. That changed.

France was a monarchy just like Britain. That changed.

People fought a Civil War in the US to (among other reasons) defend the right to own slaves. That changed.

The Republic of Ireland was a completely Catholic Country:

(http://i.imgur.com/PkAfjOA.jpg)

That thankfully has changed.

If we were all born Conservatives, we would still be living in caves. Things always change.

I was not born a conservative, in fact my favorite politician in Britain was, and always will be Tony Benn. I came over to this country a democrat, having live in the states and not just pontificated about the Country like many on here I changed based on  life experiences I had over a period of 20 years.

You are right things do change but do you really think the Loyalists would accept a United Ireland?

If you live to be a hundred, you will never ever see weapons taken out of the hands of the people in the United States of America, never! Even if the law changes the people will rise up and fight that change, just as the constitution tells them to when they consider the Government interferes with their rights.

It's called diversity, both in people and in critical thinking of the leaders elected by the people, you need liberals, you need conservatives, you do not seem able to grasp that concept, like a caveman you seem to equate Liberal good Conservative bad, if so I am glad you are not in office.

Again your post is completely hypocritical.

What you are saying is the liberals are ok until they pass laws you don't like. Then you will impeach, repeal or simply go to war. You only 'need' liberals to pretend you are in favour of democracy.

I think I get it now, you think I would want the people to do this, a million percent no, I am TELLING you what I think will happen and nothing more than that, I dont like guns, I hate the NRA and all it stands for and was trying to give an honest answer as to what I think will happen.

I hate war, I never want anyone to go to war because it is the ordinary people that suffer on both sides of the war, I was dead against the Gulf war for several reasons, not the least of which they went in not having discovered weapons they said was there, the other reason, too many innocents die and it is always the working class that get hit hardest!

When you have animals like ISIS you have to meet them head on, the UN should be leading the way but they are useless so someone has to stop these bastards, A coalition force should go in and destroy these f**kers and the Saudis, Jordanians, Iraqis and Egyptians  to join the fray and defeat this evil.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:27:40 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 11, 2015, 09:22:11 PM
I presume the point is that you claimed that gun owners were anti democracy, as they wouldn't respect the law if it was changed. Fact is, ISIS and NRA both put their religion before democracy.

Exactly.

As for religion, this has happened for centuries. For example, eclipses caused terror, but then we learned. Thunder and lightning were thought to be signs the Gods were angry. but then we learned.

Some of us might be a bit slower than the rest, but we will get there.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:28:58 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:25:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:08:56 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:00:59 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:29:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:11:02 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: GJL on December 11, 2015, 05:16:15 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.

The people will NEVER give up their weapons, NEVER, it would be akin to the reaction the loyalist community would have if the Brits declared they were pulling out of Ireland, the hard liners would fight to the death to be allowed the right to bear arms, even semi automatics, a good friend of mine is one of the top surgeons in the midwest, he assures me when we argue this topic that he will never, under any circumstances give up the right to bear arms and nor will any of his family or friends.

The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up, the students of Ivy league schools protesting about their lot, students demanding they have a say in who becomes Dean at their University, the cry of racism over anyone who tells it like it is, Black lives matter and the way the go after the cops but when a gang member shoots dead a child in a gang war in Chicago they do not protest that, why? because they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the d**khead who stared at the cop for three minutes.  The b**tards in Black lives matter were pissed off no end because they lost air time when the Paris attacks happened.

Clinton is going to be President I believe, she had an opportunity to say all lives matter, she pandered to the black vote, I was saddened by this because I thought she might have some sense of decency, she does not, black people have the right to protest but I wish they would focus on all crimes against their race, not just focus on the cops, 'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go.

Back to guns, this country was formed on the right to bear arms, guns have always played a huge role in the United States, NRA men say that their dads taught them how to shoot and how to treat a gun, they hunted in freezing weather, playing cards and drinking Beer in a cabin with friends and built memories like killing their first deer and their grandfather taught the father, it is ingrained in these people and there is no winning them over, simple as that.

Unionists said they would never go into Government with Sinn Féin. That changed.

France was a monarchy just like Britain. That changed.

People fought a Civil War in the US to (among other reasons) defend the right to own slaves. That changed.

The Republic of Ireland was a completely Catholic Country:

(http://i.imgur.com/PkAfjOA.jpg)

That thankfully has changed.

If we were all born Conservatives, we would still be living in caves. Things always change.

I was not born a conservative, in fact my favorite politician in Britain was, and always will be Tony Benn. I came over to this country a democrat, having live in the states and not just pontificated about the Country like many on here I changed based on  life experiences I had over a period of 20 years.

You are right things do change but do you really think the Loyalists would accept a United Ireland?

If you live to be a hundred, you will never ever see weapons taken out of the hands of the people in the United States of America, never! Even if the law changes the people will rise up and fight that change, just as the constitution tells them to when they consider the Government interferes with their rights.

It's called diversity, both in people and in critical thinking of the leaders elected by the people, you need liberals, you need conservatives, you do not seem able to grasp that concept, like a caveman you seem to equate Liberal good Conservative bad, if so I am glad you are not in office.

Again your post is completely hypocritical.

What you are saying is the liberals are ok until they pass laws you don't like. Then you will impeach, repeal or simply go to war. You only 'need' liberals to pretend you are in favour of democracy.

I think I get it now, you think I would want the people to do this, a million percent no, I am TELLING you what I think will happen and nothing more than that, I dont like guns, I hate the NRA and all it stands for and was trying to give an honest answer as to what I think will happen.

I hate war, I never want anyone to go to war because it is the ordinary people that suffer on both sides of the war, I was dead against the Gulf war for several reasons, not the least of which they went in not having discovered weapons they said was there, the other reason, too many innocents die and it is always the working class that get hit hardest!

When you have animals like ISIS you have to meet them head on, the UN should be leading the way but they are useless so someone has to stop these b**tards, A coalition force should go in and destroy these f**kers and the Saudis, Jordanians, Iraqis and Egyptians  to join the fray and defeat this evil.

Why are you arguing vigorously against people you claim to agree with 100% then?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:33:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:25:21 PM
This is YOUR argument. Do you understand the words you yourself wrote?

"If you live to be a hundred, you will never ever see weapons taken out of the hands of the people in the United States of America, never!"

"Even if the law changes the people will rise up and fight that change".


Like I said, democratic when it suits.

But most people here know it is all talk anyway. The outrage at the constant mass-murders will eventually reach a critical mass and cop on will eventually overcome GOP pay-offs by the NRA.

f**k me I am telling you what I think will happen if the Government take away their guns, do I want them to have guns, NO!!!!! I abide by the law even if I believe it to be wrong because I am a law abiding non citizen, I want most of the guns taken from them because I am anti gun and I support the democrats on this issue, there now, in simplest terms, do you get it now or are you going to try and read into what I write rather than acctually take the time to comprehend it?

There are no back doors in me, I have an opinion and will share it, if you do not like it oh well, I am not hear to pander to your bleeding heart sensitive soul bullshit, I am here to offer a differing opinion to yours and others like you, your problem is you have nothing good to say about conservatives at all, you are blinded by liberal doctrine and seem to be incapable of diverse thought, just an opinion.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:35:59 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:33:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:25:21 PM
This is YOUR argument. Do you understand the words you yourself wrote?

"If you live to be a hundred, you will never ever see weapons taken out of the hands of the people in the United States of America, never!"

"Even if the law changes the people will rise up and fight that change".


Like I said, democratic when it suits.

But most people here know it is all talk anyway. The outrage at the constant mass-murders will eventually reach a critical mass and cop on will eventually overcome GOP pay-offs by the NRA.

f**k me I am telling you what I think will happen if the Government take away their guns, do I want them to have guns, NO!!!!! I abide by the law even if I believe it to be wrong because I am a law abiding non citizen, I want most of the guns taken from them because I am anti gun and I support the democrats on this issue, there now, in simplest terms, do you get it now or are you going to try and read into what I write rather than acctually take the time to comprehend it?

There are no back doors in me, I have an opinion and will share it, if you do not like it oh well, I am not hear to pander to your bleeding heart sensitive soul bullshit, I am here to offer a differing opinion to yours and others like you, your problem is you have nothing good to say about conservatives at all, you are blinded by liberal doctrine and seem to be incapable of diverse thought, just an opinion.

Here is the problem.

Are you arguing your own opinion, or that of the NRA? Or are they both the same thing?

If you hate the NRA so much, why attack anyone who attacks them? None of this makes sense.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:43:28 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:28:58 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:25:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:08:56 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:00:59 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:29:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:11:02 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: GJL on December 11, 2015, 05:16:15 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.

The people will NEVER give up their weapons, NEVER, it would be akin to the reaction the loyalist community would have if the Brits declared they were pulling out of Ireland, the hard liners would fight to the death to be allowed the right to bear arms, even semi automatics, a good friend of mine is one of the top surgeons in the midwest, he assures me when we argue this topic that he will never, under any circumstances give up the right to bear arms and nor will any of his family or friends.

The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up, the students of Ivy league schools protesting about their lot, students demanding they have a say in who becomes Dean at their University, the cry of racism over anyone who tells it like it is, Black lives matter and the way the go after the cops but when a gang member shoots dead a child in a gang war in Chicago they do not protest that, why? because they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the d**khead who stared at the cop for three minutes.  The b**tards in Black lives matter were pissed off no end because they lost air time when the Paris attacks happened.

Clinton is going to be President I believe, she had an opportunity to say all lives matter, she pandered to the black vote, I was saddened by this because I thought she might have some sense of decency, she does not, black people have the right to protest but I wish they would focus on all crimes against their race, not just focus on the cops, 'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go.

Back to guns, this country was formed on the right to bear arms, guns have always played a huge role in the United States, NRA men say that their dads taught them how to shoot and how to treat a gun, they hunted in freezing weather, playing cards and drinking Beer in a cabin with friends and built memories like killing their first deer and their grandfather taught the father, it is ingrained in these people and there is no winning them over, simple as that.

Unionists said they would never go into Government with Sinn Féin. That changed.

France was a monarchy just like Britain. That changed.

People fought a Civil War in the US to (among other reasons) defend the right to own slaves. That changed.

The Republic of Ireland was a completely Catholic Country:

(http://i.imgur.com/PkAfjOA.jpg)

That thankfully has changed.

If we were all born Conservatives, we would still be living in caves. Things always change.

I was not born a conservative, in fact my favorite politician in Britain was, and always will be Tony Benn. I came over to this country a democrat, having live in the states and not just pontificated about the Country like many on here I changed based on  life experiences I had over a period of 20 years.

You are right things do change but do you really think the Loyalists would accept a United Ireland?

If you live to be a hundred, you will never ever see weapons taken out of the hands of the people in the United States of America, never! Even if the law changes the people will rise up and fight that change, just as the constitution tells them to when they consider the Government interferes with their rights.

It's called diversity, both in people and in critical thinking of the leaders elected by the people, you need liberals, you need conservatives, you do not seem able to grasp that concept, like a caveman you seem to equate Liberal good Conservative bad, if so I am glad you are not in office.

Again your post is completely hypocritical.

What you are saying is the liberals are ok until they pass laws you don't like. Then you will impeach, repeal or simply go to war. You only 'need' liberals to pretend you are in favour of democracy.

I think I get it now, you think I would want the people to do this, a million percent no, I am TELLING you what I think will happen and nothing more than that, I dont like guns, I hate the NRA and all it stands for and was trying to give an honest answer as to what I think will happen.

I hate war, I never want anyone to go to war because it is the ordinary people that suffer on both sides of the war, I was dead against the Gulf war for several reasons, not the least of which they went in not having discovered weapons they said was there, the other reason, too many innocents die and it is always the working class that get hit hardest!

When you have animals like ISIS you have to meet them head on, the UN should be leading the way but they are useless so someone has to stop these b**tards, A coalition force should go in and destroy these f**kers and the Saudis, Jordanians, Iraqis and Egyptians  to join the fray and defeat this evil.

Why are you arguing vigorously against people you claim to agree with 100% then?

I am 100% against the rights views on gun control and 100% agree with the democrats that semi automatics should be taken from the people as well as Automatics and high powered rifles, the democrats are capable of being right some of the time, it happens, why just look at FDR and his body of work tremendous, look at Kennedy and the Cuban crisis and getting man to the moon.

You need both, in fact you need more than two options, you should have six or seven options in this country not just two, this is why in these times you need people who think outside the box and need people with diverse backgrounds and different idea's, you need coalition governments sometimes to force parties to work together, both left and right to center things from time to time.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:46:54 PM
So can I conclude, based on the following, you are:

"100% against the rights views on gun control and 100% agree with the democrats that semi automatics should be taken from the people as well as Automatics and high powered rifles".

If that is the case then we agree. I don't really understanding why you are arguing against anyone who attacks the current gun laws, but there you go.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:47:50 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:35:59 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:33:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:25:21 PM
This is YOUR argument. Do you understand the words you yourself wrote?

"If you live to be a hundred, you will never ever see weapons taken out of the hands of the people in the United States of America, never!"

"Even if the law changes the people will rise up and fight that change".


Like I said, democratic when it suits.

But most people here know it is all talk anyway. The outrage at the constant mass-murders will eventually reach a critical mass and cop on will eventually overcome GOP pay-offs by the NRA.

f**k me I am telling you what I think will happen if the Government take away their guns, do I want them to have guns, NO!!!!! I abide by the law even if I believe it to be wrong because I am a law abiding non citizen, I want most of the guns taken from them because I am anti gun and I support the democrats on this issue, there now, in simplest terms, do you get it now or are you going to try and read into what I write rather than acctually take the time to comprehend it?

There are no back doors in me, I have an opinion and will share it, if you do not like it oh well, I am not hear to pander to your bleeding heart sensitive soul bullshit, I am here to offer a differing opinion to yours and others like you, your problem is you have nothing good to say about conservatives at all, you are blinded by liberal doctrine and seem to be incapable of diverse thought, just an opinion.

Here is the problem.

Are you arguing your own opinion, or that of the NRA? Or are they both the same thing?

If you hate the NRA so much, why attack anyone who attacks them? None of this makes sense.

I am offering an opinion based on my thoughts on the way  I think NRA members and gun owners will react should this happen, no hypocrisy muppet, I am simply giving you my opinions on what will happen based on conversations I have had with gun owners, stories I have read, face book posts and what I have seen in the media both left and right. I hope this straightens it up but if it does not I cant help you, I cannot make it any plainer than that.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:50:40 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:46:54 PM
So can I conclude, based on the following, you are:

"100% against the rights views on gun control and 100% agree with the democrats that semi automatics should be taken from the people as well as Automatics and high powered rifles".

If that is the case then we agree. I don't really understanding why you are arguing against anyone who attacks the current gun laws, but there you go.
I am not defending them Muppet, I am trying to give you my thoughts on what gun owners and the NRA think, I am all for gun reform, it is just that I do not see the laws changing because the NRA is too powerful and have too many politicians in the back pocket, (mostly republicans)

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:51:30 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:50:40 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:46:54 PM
So can I conclude, based on the following, you are:

"100% against the rights views on gun control and 100% agree with the democrats that semi automatics should be taken from the people as well as Automatics and high powered rifles".

If that is the case then we agree. I don't really understanding why you are arguing against anyone who attacks the current gun laws, but there you go.
I am not defending them Muppet, I am trying to give you my thoughts on what gun owners and the NRA think, I am all for gun reform, it is just that I do not see the laws changing because the NRA is too powerful and have too many politicians in the back pocket, (mostly republicans)

That is all fine Stew. I have you now.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 10:20:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:51:30 PM
Quote from: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:50:40 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:46:54 PM
So can I conclude, based on the following, you are:

"100% against the rights views on gun control and 100% agree with the democrats that semi automatics should be taken from the people as well as Automatics and high powered rifles".

If that is the case then we agree. I don't really understanding why you are arguing against anyone who attacks the current gun laws, but there you go.
I am not defending them Muppet, I am trying to give you my thoughts on what gun owners and the NRA think, I am all for gun reform, it is just that I do not see the laws changing because the NRA is too powerful and have too many politicians in the back pocket, (mostly republicans)

That is all fine Stew. I have you now.

So no hypocrisy then? ;)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on December 12, 2015, 12:49:06 AM
Jaysis lads, get a room and be done with it once and for all.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 12, 2015, 03:08:28 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 11, 2015, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 11, 2015, 02:37:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 10, 2015, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 08, 2015, 01:54:55 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Don't have an opinion either way on the false flag allegation regarding the Charlie Hebdo policeman murder as I've not looked at the details.

But let's assume for the minute that its true - what does that have to do with the response in San Bernadino?

There are a number of common denominators in most of the atrocities where either terrorists, a lone gunman or multiple gunmen/women are accused. Drills is one of the common denominators.

Drills?

Yes J70, Drills

Please pay full attention to the following interview with Dr Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy in the Reagan Administration. After reading every word of the more than 40 pages of this thread every other poster need to do likewise, not only for their own good but for the good of mankind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSugZtgXsc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSugZtgXsc)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 12, 2015, 05:02:25 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 12, 2015, 03:08:28 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 11, 2015, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 11, 2015, 02:37:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 10, 2015, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 08, 2015, 01:54:55 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Don't have an opinion either way on the false flag allegation regarding the Charlie Hebdo policeman murder as I've not looked at the details.

But let's assume for the minute that its true - what does that have to do with the response in San Bernadino?

There are a number of common denominators in most of the atrocities where either terrorists, a lone gunman or multiple gunmen/women are accused. Drills is one of the common denominators.

Drills?

Yes J70, Drills

Please pay full attention to the following interview with Dr Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy in the Reagan Administration. After reading every word of the more than 40 pages of this thread every other poster need to do likewise, not only for their own good but for the good of mankind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSugZtgXsc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSugZtgXsc)

Not sitting through a video, but i did read an article from Roberts' blog about the Paris attacks (linked on his wiki entry). Nothing even remotely approaching evidence. Just an opinion that it could have been orchestrated by the French to somehow deprive Marie LePen of power by closing the borders and thus getting rid of the refugee issue. Tis ironic that LePen has probably NEVER been MORE powerful than right now! Seriously, could there be a worse way conceived to reduce the influence of the far right than staging a spectacular islamic terrorist atrocity?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 12, 2015, 03:00:57 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 12, 2015, 05:02:25 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 12, 2015, 03:08:28 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 11, 2015, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 11, 2015, 02:37:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 10, 2015, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 08, 2015, 01:54:55 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Don't have an opinion either way on the false flag allegation regarding the Charlie Hebdo policeman murder as I've not looked at the details.

But let's assume for the minute that its true - what does that have to do with the response in San Bernadino?

There are a number of common denominators in most of the atrocities where either terrorists, a lone gunman or multiple gunmen/women are accused. Drills is one of the common denominators.

Drills?

Yes J70, Drills

Please pay full attention to the following interview with Dr Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy in the Reagan Administration. After reading every word of the more than 40 pages of this thread every other poster need to do likewise, not only for their own good but for the good of mankind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSugZtgXsc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSugZtgXsc)

Not sitting through a video, but i did read an article from Roberts' blog about the Paris attacks (linked on his wiki entry). Nothing even remotely approaching evidence. Just an opinion that it could have been orchestrated by the French to somehow deprive Marie LePen of power by closing the borders and thus getting rid of the refugee issue. Tis ironic that LePen has probably NEVER been MORE powerful than right now! Seriously, could there be a worse way conceived to reduce the influence of the far right than staging a spectacular islamic terrorist atrocity?

Disappointing that you did not take the 30 minutes to watch the video. You questioned my mention of drills coinciding with most "terrorist attacks" and the attacks on the 2nd Amendment, the video addresses this.

Have you heard of Peter Powers of Visor Consulting? Here is what he was up to on the morning of the 7/7 London Bombing.
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/coincidence+of+bomb+exercises/109010.html (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/coincidence+of+bomb+exercises/109010.html). Coincidence or what?

Regarding the Dr Paul Craig Roberts blog you mentioned, he wrote that on 7PM possibly PST, November 13th, the day of the attack, how could he have evidence, he was merely speculating. Here is a quote from the Blog:

"At 7pm on Friday 13th we do not have much information about the "terrorist attacks" in Paris other than that Paris is closed down like Boston was after the "Boston Marathon Bombing," also a suspected false flag event.
Possibly believable evidence will be presented that the Paris attacks were real terrorist attacks".

Since then plenty of evidence has come to the forefront indicating this may also be a false flag event accompanied by those notorious drills.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 12, 2015, 04:29:59 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 12, 2015, 03:00:57 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 12, 2015, 05:02:25 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 12, 2015, 03:08:28 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 11, 2015, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 11, 2015, 02:37:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 10, 2015, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 08, 2015, 01:54:55 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Don't have an opinion either way on the false flag allegation regarding the Charlie Hebdo policeman murder as I've not looked at the details.

But let's assume for the minute that its true - what does that have to do with the response in San Bernadino?

There are a number of common denominators in most of the atrocities where either terrorists, a lone gunman or multiple gunmen/women are accused. Drills is one of the common denominators.

Drills?

Yes J70, Drills

Please pay full attention to the following interview with Dr Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy in the Reagan Administration. After reading every word of the more than 40 pages of this thread every other poster need to do likewise, not only for their own good but for the good of mankind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSugZtgXsc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSugZtgXsc)

Not sitting through a video, but i did read an article from Roberts' blog about the Paris attacks (linked on his wiki entry). Nothing even remotely approaching evidence. Just an opinion that it could have been orchestrated by the French to somehow deprive Marie LePen of power by closing the borders and thus getting rid of the refugee issue. Tis ironic that LePen has probably NEVER been MORE powerful than right now! Seriously, could there be a worse way conceived to reduce the influence of the far right than staging a spectacular islamic terrorist atrocity?

Disappointing that you did not take the 30 minutes to watch the video. You questioned my mention of drills coinciding with most "terrorist attacks" and the attacks on the 2nd Amendment, the video addresses this.

Have you heard of Peter Powers of Visor Consulting? Here is what he was up to on the morning of the 7/7 London Bombing.
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/coincidence+of+bomb+exercises/109010.html (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/coincidence+of+bomb+exercises/109010.html). Coincidence or what?

Regarding the Dr Paul Craig Roberts blog you mentioned, he wrote that on 7PM possibly PST, November 13th, the day of the attack, how could he have evidence, he was merely speculating. Here is a quote from the Blog:

"At 7pm on Friday 13th we do not have much information about the "terrorist attacks" in Paris other than that Paris is closed down like Boston was after the "Boston Marathon Bombing," also a suspected false flag event.
Possibly believable evidence will be presented that the Paris attacks were real terrorist attacks".

Since then plenty of evidence has come to the forefront indicating this may also be a false flag event accompanied by those notorious drills.


Such as?

What evidence is there that they were not "real" terrorist attacks?

My point about the blog is that his rationale doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 13, 2015, 02:05:40 AM
Tell the peoples whose loved ones died that it was not a real terrorist attack, see what they think!

Ridiculous.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 14, 2015, 12:00:43 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 12, 2015, 04:29:59 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 12, 2015, 03:00:57 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 12, 2015, 05:02:25 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 12, 2015, 03:08:28 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 11, 2015, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 11, 2015, 02:37:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 10, 2015, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 08, 2015, 01:54:55 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Don't have an opinion either way on the false flag allegation regarding the Charlie Hebdo policeman murder as I've not looked at the details.

But let's assume for the minute that its true - what does that have to do with the response in San Bernadino?

There are a number of common denominators in most of the atrocities where either terrorists, a lone gunman or multiple gunmen/women are accused. Drills is one of the common denominators.

Drills?

Yes J70, Drills

Please pay full attention to the following interview with Dr Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy in the Reagan Administration. After reading every word of the more than 40 pages of this thread every other poster need to do likewise, not only for their own good but for the good of mankind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSugZtgXsc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSugZtgXsc)

Not sitting through a video, but i did read an article from Roberts' blog about the Paris attacks (linked on his wiki entry). Nothing even remotely approaching evidence. Just an opinion that it could have been orchestrated by the French to somehow deprive Marie LePen of power by closing the borders and thus getting rid of the refugee issue. Tis ironic that LePen has probably NEVER been MORE powerful than right now! Seriously, could there be a worse way conceived to reduce the influence of the far right than staging a spectacular islamic terrorist atrocity?

Disappointing that you did not take the 30 minutes to watch the video. You questioned my mention of drills coinciding with most "terrorist attacks" and the attacks on the 2nd Amendment, the video addresses this.

Have you heard of Peter Powers of Visor Consulting? Here is what he was up to on the morning of the 7/7 London Bombing.
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/coincidence+of+bomb+exercises/109010.html (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/coincidence+of+bomb+exercises/109010.html). Coincidence or what?

Regarding the Dr Paul Craig Roberts blog you mentioned, he wrote that on 7PM possibly PST, November 13th, the day of the attack, how could he have evidence, he was merely speculating. Here is a quote from the Blog:

"At 7pm on Friday 13th we do not have much information about the "terrorist attacks" in Paris other than that Paris is closed down like Boston was after the "Boston Marathon Bombing," also a suspected false flag event.
Possibly believable evidence will be presented that the Paris attacks were real terrorist attacks".

Since then plenty of evidence has come to the forefront indicating this may also be a false flag event accompanied by those notorious drills.


Such as?

What evidence is there that they were not "real" terrorist attacks?

My point about the blog is that his rationale doesn't make any sense.

Sorry J70, you will have to do your own research, it would be a good habit for the future.
If the official story is true then they are telling us that its State Sponsored Terrorism. Who created, is training, arming and funding ISIS /Al-Qaeda or what ever namee they will come up with next?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 14, 2015, 12:03:22 AM
Quote from: stew on December 13, 2015, 02:05:40 AM
Tell the peoples whose loved ones died that it was not a real terrorist attack, see what they think!

Ridiculous.

You mean the likes of Beverly Eckert and many many more?
A friend of mine also died on 9/11
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 14, 2015, 02:00:34 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 14, 2015, 12:00:43 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 12, 2015, 04:29:59 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 12, 2015, 03:00:57 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 12, 2015, 05:02:25 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 12, 2015, 03:08:28 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 11, 2015, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 11, 2015, 02:37:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 10, 2015, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 08, 2015, 01:54:55 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Don't have an opinion either way on the false flag allegation regarding the Charlie Hebdo policeman murder as I've not looked at the details.

But let's assume for the minute that its true - what does that have to do with the response in San Bernadino?

There are a number of common denominators in most of the atrocities where either terrorists, a lone gunman or multiple gunmen/women are accused. Drills is one of the common denominators.

Drills?

Yes J70, Drills

Please pay full attention to the following interview with Dr Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy in the Reagan Administration. After reading every word of the more than 40 pages of this thread every other poster need to do likewise, not only for their own good but for the good of mankind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSugZtgXsc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSugZtgXsc)

Not sitting through a video, but i did read an article from Roberts' blog about the Paris attacks (linked on his wiki entry). Nothing even remotely approaching evidence. Just an opinion that it could have been orchestrated by the French to somehow deprive Marie LePen of power by closing the borders and thus getting rid of the refugee issue. Tis ironic that LePen has probably NEVER been MORE powerful than right now! Seriously, could there be a worse way conceived to reduce the influence of the far right than staging a spectacular islamic terrorist atrocity?

Disappointing that you did not take the 30 minutes to watch the video. You questioned my mention of drills coinciding with most "terrorist attacks" and the attacks on the 2nd Amendment, the video addresses this.

Have you heard of Peter Powers of Visor Consulting? Here is what he was up to on the morning of the 7/7 London Bombing.
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/coincidence+of+bomb+exercises/109010.html (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/coincidence+of+bomb+exercises/109010.html). Coincidence or what?

Regarding the Dr Paul Craig Roberts blog you mentioned, he wrote that on 7PM possibly PST, November 13th, the day of the attack, how could he have evidence, he was merely speculating. Here is a quote from the Blog:

"At 7pm on Friday 13th we do not have much information about the "terrorist attacks" in Paris other than that Paris is closed down like Boston was after the "Boston Marathon Bombing," also a suspected false flag event.
Possibly believable evidence will be presented that the Paris attacks were real terrorist attacks".

Since then plenty of evidence has come to the forefront indicating this may also be a false flag event accompanied by those notorious drills.


Such as?

What evidence is there that they were not "real" terrorist attacks?

My point about the blog is that his rationale doesn't make any sense.

Sorry J70, you will have to do your own research, it would be a good habit for the future.
If the official story is true then they are telling us that its State Sponsored Terrorism. Who created, is training, arming and funding ISIS /Al-Qaeda or what ever namee they will come up with next?

I am well enough versed in research, logic and science that I am not going to go on wild goose chases down blind alleys after every conspiracy theory, thank you!

If your allegations are THAT well supported, surely you can at least give us the basic jist.

I've questioned the logic of using a staged attack by "ISIS" to diminish the appeal of the NF. Why should I delve any further than that?

I've little interest in moon landing hoax or 9-11 "truth" or "Obama is a muslim Kenyan" theories either. When a school kid can poke holes, I don't think they're owed further consideration.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: LeoMc on December 14, 2015, 04:24:20 PM
Ah but you are not following the unbreakable logic there J70.

Paris was locked down like Boston after the attack there.
Boston was a false flag operation therefore Paris is a false flag operation.

Now I dare you to try to pick holes in that logic.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 19, 2015, 09:09:10 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on December 14, 2015, 04:24:20 PM
Ah but you are not following the unbreakable logic there J70.

Paris was locked down like Boston after the attack there.
Boston was a false flag operation therefore Paris is a false flag operation.

Now I dare you to try to pick holes in that logic.

Well done man, a very lame piece of lick up sarcasm and like the previous post to yours rich in cognitive dissonance.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 19, 2015, 09:17:35 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 14, 2015, 02:00:34 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 14, 2015, 12:00:43 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 12, 2015, 04:29:59 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 12, 2015, 03:00:57 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 12, 2015, 05:02:25 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 12, 2015, 03:08:28 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 11, 2015, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 11, 2015, 02:37:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 10, 2015, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 08, 2015, 01:54:55 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Don't have an opinion either way on the false flag allegation regarding the Charlie Hebdo policeman murder as I've not looked at the details.

But let's assume for the minute that its true - what does that have to do with the response in San Bernadino?

There are a number of common denominators in most of the atrocities where either terrorists, a lone gunman or multiple gunmen/women are accused. Drills is one of the common denominators.

Drills?

Yes J70, Drills

Please pay full attention to the following interview with Dr Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy in the Reagan Administration. After reading every word of the more than 40 pages of this thread every other poster need to do likewise, not only for their own good but for the good of mankind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSugZtgXsc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSugZtgXsc)

Not sitting through a video, but i did read an article from Roberts' blog about the Paris attacks (linked on his wiki entry). Nothing even remotely approaching evidence. Just an opinion that it could have been orchestrated by the French to somehow deprive Marie LePen of power by closing the borders and thus getting rid of the refugee issue. Tis ironic that LePen has probably NEVER been MORE powerful than right now! Seriously, could there be a worse way conceived to reduce the influence of the far right than staging a spectacular islamic terrorist atrocity?

Disappointing that you did not take the 30 minutes to watch the video. You questioned my mention of drills coinciding with most "terrorist attacks" and the attacks on the 2nd Amendment, the video addresses this.

Have you heard of Peter Powers of Visor Consulting? Here is what he was up to on the morning of the 7/7 London Bombing.
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/coincidence+of+bomb+exercises/109010.html (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/coincidence+of+bomb+exercises/109010.html). Coincidence or what?

Regarding the Dr Paul Craig Roberts blog you mentioned, he wrote that on 7PM possibly PST, November 13th, the day of the attack, how could he have evidence, he was merely speculating. Here is a quote from the Blog:

"At 7pm on Friday 13th we do not have much information about the "terrorist attacks" in Paris other than that Paris is closed down like Boston was after the "Boston Marathon Bombing," also a suspected false flag event.
Possibly believable evidence will be presented that the Paris attacks were real terrorist attacks".

Since then plenty of evidence has come to the forefront indicating this may also be a false flag event accompanied by those notorious drills.


Such as?

What evidence is there that they were not "real" terrorist attacks?

My point about the blog is that his rationale doesn't make any sense.

Sorry J70, you will have to do your own research, it would be a good habit for the future.
If the official story is true then they are telling us that its State Sponsored Terrorism. Who created, is training, arming and funding ISIS /Al-Qaeda or what ever namee they will come up with next?

I am well enough versed in research, logic and science that I am not going to go on wild goose chases down blind alleys after every conspiracy theory, thank you!

If your allegations are THAT well supported, surely you can at least give us the basic jist.

I've questioned the logic of using a staged attack by "ISIS" to diminish the appeal of the NF. Why should I delve any further than that?

I've little interest in moon landing hoax or 9-11 "truth" or "Obama is a muslim Kenyan" theories either. When a school kid can poke holes, I don't think they're owed further consideration.

So the great researcher had to go to Wikipedia to find out who Dr Paul Craig Roberts is and instead of watching a short video chose instead to find a link amongst several that may coincide with his preconceived views.   Dr Roberts clearly stated he may be wrong but you conveniently decided to ignore this. I don't believe for one second that the Paris "attack" had anything to do with Marine Le Pen and disagree with Dr Roberts on this as there are a number of other reasons for what happened. Christ the man is only human, he is entitled to be incorrect once or twice in a hundred.

Why should I give you hard evidence when you won't bother looking at it out of fear of being wrong?  FEAR stands for False Evidence Appearing Real. Anything fear driven need to be questioned as it's almost certainly a lie or illegal such as the War on Terrorism and of course the other big one, the IRS. Over 90% of the populace have no idea who the IRS really are yet through fear the IRS have enlisted the self employed to become their tax collectors and have the people dread an audit. I've taken them on and beaten them, no more income tax for me. The letters they send my fictional entity now are both pathetic and laughable, like a scolded child who was caught with their hand in the cookie jar, a world away from their fear infested threats.

So stay in your little box where you will feel a false sense of freedom.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 19, 2015, 09:58:31 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 19, 2015, 09:17:35 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 14, 2015, 02:00:34 PM

I am well enough versed in research, logic and science that I am not going to go on wild goose chases down blind alleys after every conspiracy theory, thank you!

If your allegations are THAT well supported, surely you can at least give us the basic jist.

I've questioned the logic of using a staged attack by "ISIS" to diminish the appeal of the NF. Why should I delve any further than that?

I've little interest in moon landing hoax or 9-11 "truth" or "Obama is a muslim Kenyan" theories either. When a school kid can poke holes, I don't think they're owed further consideration.

So the great researcher had to go to Wikipedia to find out who Dr Paul Craig Roberts is and instead of watching a short video chose instead to find a link amongst several that may coincide with his preconceived views.   Dr Roberts clearly stated he may be wrong but you decided to ignore this. I don't believe for one second that the Paris "attack" had anything to do with Marine Le Pen and disagree with Dr Roberts on this as there are a number of other reasons for what happened. Christ the man is only human, he is entitled  to be incorrect one or two times in a hundred.

Why should I give you hard evidence when you won't bother looking at it out of fear of being wrong?  FEAR stands for False Evidence Appearing Real. Anything fear driven need to be questioned as it's almost certainly a lie or illegal such as the War on Terrorism and of course the other big one, the IRS. Over 90% of the populace have no idea who the IRS really are yet through fear the IRS have enlisted the self employed to become their tax collectors and have the people dread an audit. I've taken them on and beaten them, no more income tax for me. The letters they send my fictional entity now are both pathetic and laughable, like a scolded child who was caught with their hand in the cookie jar, a world away from their fear infested threats.

So stay in your little box where you will feel a false sense of freedom.

I clicked on the link it listed as a reference for the Paris thing. As I said, when that made zero sense and used ridiculously shaky logic, why would I investigate any further? I have no reason to care what the guy says, based on the little bit I read, and based on the history of conspiracy theorists in general.  If you're that much of an advocate, then YOU present the evidence.

Put it this way, if I was arguing a pro-evolution or pro-atheist point, I would take the time to lay my points out logically and to examine the flaws in the anti-evolution/atheist or whatever point. I wouldn't just say "you're all idiots falling for the official government spin" and "if you'd only do a little work you'd find out the truth". If the issues are that bleeding obvious, then it shouldn't take you too long to give us the jist.

Good luck with your false identity/IRS thing! ;D
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 19, 2015, 11:20:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 19, 2015, 09:58:31 PM
Quote from: Seamus on December 19, 2015, 09:17:35 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 14, 2015, 02:00:34 PM

I am well enough versed in research, logic and science that I am not going to go on wild goose chases down blind alleys after every conspiracy theory, thank you!

If your allegations are THAT well supported, surely you can at least give us the basic jist.

I've questioned the logic of using a staged attack by "ISIS" to diminish the appeal of the NF. Why should I delve any further than that?

I've little interest in moon landing hoax or 9-11 "truth" or "Obama is a muslim Kenyan" theories either. When a school kid can poke holes, I don't think they're owed further consideration.

So the great researcher had to go to Wikipedia to find out who Dr Paul Craig Roberts is and instead of watching a short video chose instead to find a link amongst several that may coincide with his preconceived views.   Dr Roberts clearly stated he may be wrong but you decided to ignore this. I don't believe for one second that the Paris "attack" had anything to do with Marine Le Pen and disagree with Dr Roberts on this as there are a number of other reasons for what happened. Christ the man is only human, he is entitled  to be incorrect one or two times in a hundred.

Why should I give you hard evidence when you won't bother looking at it out of fear of being wrong?  FEAR stands for False Evidence Appearing Real. Anything fear driven need to be questioned as it's almost certainly a lie or illegal such as the War on Terrorism and of course the other big one, the IRS. Over 90% of the populace have no idea who the IRS really are yet through fear the IRS have enlisted the self employed to become their tax collectors and have the people dread an audit. I've taken them on and beaten them, no more income tax for me. The letters they send my fictional entity now are both pathetic and laughable, like a scolded child who was caught with their hand in the cookie jar, a world away from their fear infested threats.

So stay in your little box where you will feel a false sense of freedom.

I clicked on the link it listed as a reference for the Paris thing. As I said, when that made zero sense and used ridiculously shaky logic, why would I investigate any further? I have no reason to care what the guy says, based on the little bit I read, and based on the history of conspiracy theorists in general.  If you're that much of an advocate, then YOU present the evidence.

Put it this way, if I was arguing a pro-evolution or pro-atheist point, I would take the time to lay my points out logically and to examine the flaws in the anti-evolution/atheist or whatever point. I wouldn't just say "you're all idiots falling for the official government spin" and "if you'd only do a little work you'd find out the truth". If the issues are that bleeding obvious, then it shouldn't take you too long to give us the jist.

Good luck with your false identity/IRS thing! ;D

Show me where I've called someone an idiot, I don't go there. I have explained to you why you do not want to look at the evidence... from fear of shattering your belief system.  I also told you I've beaten the IRS, no luck needed as knowledge is power, what part of that can you not understand? Is your belief system again getting in the way?  It looks like you have a government job so you are stuck with them ever though the IRS is a private corporation, an arm of The Federal Reserve and IMF and is not agency of the US Government which of course is another private corporation.

One last chance to watch expert analysis, lets see how your so called knowledge of science and great logic holds up to this one. It's 58 minutes long, surely you will not hold this as an excuse again.  For the great unwatched (those that follow the crowd and don't have a mind of their own, believing everything that comes from the propaganda tube and their government and read the newspapers from cover to cover) I would advise beginning at the 42/43 minute where this way of thinking is expertly explained.

https://youtu.be/Ddz2mw2vaEg
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 20, 2015, 03:55:28 AM
Great, 9/11 truther nonsense too. No thank you. I've seen enough of it over the years. Again, if you want to write a few lines on the "evidence", go ahead.

And btw, one can disagree with all that happened in the aftermath without subscribing to bogus engineering analysis or whatever it is that's in your video.

And the US government is a private corporation?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 21, 2015, 02:13:39 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 20, 2015, 03:55:28 AM
Great, 9/11 truther nonsense too. No thank you. I've seen enough of it over the years. Again, if you want to write a few lines on the "evidence", go ahead.

And btw, one can disagree with all that happened in the aftermath without subscribing to bogus engineering analysis or whatever it is that's in your video.

And the US government is a private corporation?

Building 7 is the major smoking gun amongst several that the Official story is a big lie.
Lets hear your theory on how WTC Building 7 collapsed into its own footprint in 6.5 seconds (free fall speed). I'll remind you no plane hit that building. It's obviously yet again you did not look at the video. I'm not expecting an answer to my question either.

Yes sir, THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA is a MEGA Corporation and has no interest of its people at hand.

A book that should be in every household written by a former judge
You Know something is Wrong......: An American Affidavit of Probable Cause by Anna Maria Resigner

No wonder we live at a time where probably the most evil woman in the world, not only is allowed run for the US Presidency but is one of the favourites to become the Leader of "The Free World". Where people are captivated by a two year long dog and pony show.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 21, 2015, 02:31:43 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 21, 2015, 02:13:39 AM
Quote from: J70 on December 20, 2015, 03:55:28 AM
Great, 9/11 truther nonsense too. No thank you. I've seen enough of it over the years. Again, if you want to write a few lines on the "evidence", go ahead.

And btw, one can disagree with all that happened in the aftermath without subscribing to bogus engineering analysis or whatever it is that's in your video.

And the US government is a private corporation?

Building 7 is the major smoking gun amongst several that the Official story is a big lie.
Lets hear your theory on how WTC Building 7 collapsed into its own footprint in 6.5 seconds (free fall speed). I'll remind you no plane hit that building. It's obviously yet again you did not look at the video. I'm not expecting an answer to my question either.

Yes sir, THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA is a MEGA Corporation and has no interest of its people at hand.

A book that should be in every household written by a former judge
You Know something is Wrong......: An American Affidavit of Probable Cause by Anna Maria Resigner

No wonder we live at a time where probably the most evil woman in the world, not only is allowed run for the US Presidency but is one of the favourites to become the Leader of "The Free World". Where people are captivated by a two year long dog and pony show.

Seamus....please set up a seperate thread for conspiracy theories
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on December 21, 2015, 08:25:37 AM
Feck me is this 911 BS still floating around Seamus = James = Jim...Corr??

I remember being half seduced by this theory for a while myself, there was a documentary on C4 wasnt there years ago? After I started looking into it (via the web of course), and there are numerous websites debunking the 911 conspiracy theories.

I cant remember the half of the details of course now, but have a look through those websites with an open mind Seamus and its fairly obvious the con theories are BS. I remember being quite angry after that C4 would let such a one sided documentary on without being properly challenged, made massive assumptions and ignored facts. I have been suspicious of journalists and their hunger for sensationalism since.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: LeoMc on December 21, 2015, 08:44:03 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 19, 2015, 09:09:10 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on December 14, 2015, 04:24:20 PM
Ah but you are not following the unbreakable logic there J70.

Paris was locked down like Boston after the attack there.
Boston was a false flag operation therefore Paris is a false flag operation.

Now I dare you to try to pick holes in that logic.

Well done man, a very lame piece of lick up sarcasm and like the previous post to yours rich in cognitive dissonance.

No cognitive dissonance here. My attitudes to extreme right wing conspiracy theorists and sock puppets are pretty consistent.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 22, 2015, 02:39:03 AM
Ye guys believe in the greatest conspiracy theory of them all. It's going to be some rude awakening when the true culprits are finally being fitted for orange jumpsuits and all the goat herders of Afghanistan are released.

This must be another right wing conspiracy theory:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2362684/Prince-Harry-witness-war-crime-US-opened-Afghan-goat-herders.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2362684/Prince-Harry-witness-war-crime-US-opened-Afghan-goat-herders.html)

I bid you all adieu, enjoy the Christmas and have a great New Year with a good reality check along the way.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on December 22, 2015, 09:50:28 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 22, 2015, 02:39:03 AMhave a great New Year with a good reality check along the way.

Excellent!

One day, I was stopped at traffic lights on a slight upward slope. An old lady in a Morris Minor in front of me rolled back and gently bumped against my front bumper. She stepped briskly out of her car and marched back to mine. As I rolled down my window, she said, "why don't you watch where you're going?"
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 22, 2015, 11:01:27 AM
Quote from: Hardy on December 22, 2015, 09:50:28 AM
Quote from: Seamus on December 22, 2015, 02:39:03 AMhave a great New Year with a good reality check along the way.

Excellent!

One day, I was stopped at traffic lights on a slight upward slope. An old lady in a Morris Minor in front of me rolled back and gently bumped against my front bumper. She stepped briskly out of her car and marched back to mine. As I rolled down my window, she said, "why don't you watch where you're going?"

and once upon a time in Dealey Plaza a magic bullet did the rounds, still believed today. So long Hardy, I'm sure you reached Detective, God help us.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on January 05, 2016, 12:22:41 AM
If the Oregon militiamen were Muslim or black, they'd be dead by now

If, in a vacuum, I told you that a bearded man with his head covered had posted a video on social media calling on his followers to leave their homes with weapons, migrate to a new area, take over government property "as long as necessary" and use violence if confronted by law enforcement, you'd probably assume that I was talking about the latest propaganda video released by Isis, filmed in Iraq or Syria and intended to recruit violent Muslim extremists.

But that exact call was recently issued on Facebook by white rancher Ammon Bundy, the son of Cliven Bundy who also engaged in an armed standoff with law enforcement in 2014 and who currently owes the government more than $1m in fees. The younger Bundy's goal this time was to encourage his fellow American "patriots" to take up arms against the US government in protest of the arson convictions of ranchers Dwight Hammond Jr and his son, Steven.

Militia leaders claim approximately 150 followers accepted Ammon Bundy's call, although reporters on the ground are saying it's far fewer. The armed men are currently occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Burns, Oregon to, in their words, "assist in helping the people of Harney County claim back their lands and resources" . Ammon Bundy has said that his people won't "rule out violence" if law enforcement "tries to remove them".

But, don't worry America: he promised everyone that "we are not terrorists". What a relief.

Of course they're not "terrorists": Bundy and his followers are just your average angry white "freedom fighters", who use weapons and ammunition to protect the US constitution and American values from the government and other Americans who want them to abide by federal laws like everyone else.

But if Bundy and his followers were like the 38% of Americans who aren't white , people across America wouldn't be watching this surreal, dangerous episode unfold and wondering what they could do to be labeled a "militia" when occupying a federal area with guns instead of "terrorists", "thugs", "extremists" or "gangs".

If one black man holding a plastic toy gun even walked in the direction of a federal building, let alone with 150 other black men all holding loaded rifles, he'd be shot dead by law enforcement, no questions asked. If 15 Muslims occupied a 7-Eleven with BB guns and masala Slurpees, federal law enforcement would probably roll up with 6 MRAPs and immediately take everyone out Waco-style (but without a Congressional investigation ).

We don't need to racially profile individuals who look like these armed militiamen (white men with bushy beards and beer bellies), but it's time for mainstream politicians to at least acknowledge and confront this dangerous threat within our borders.

Since 9/11, more people in America have been killed by right wing terror attacks than violent jihadists (48 deaths to 45 deaths) . America witnessed an "unprecedented rise" in radical right wing, anti-government groups after the election of President Barack Hussein Obama. Yet, the Department of Homeland Security buried an analyst's early 2009 warning about the growing threat of right wing terror groups to focus solely on Muslim extremists, caving to conservative pundits who complained the DHS was demonizing right wing speech by targeting these groups.

And although the number of people involved has reduced in the past two years, it has not dampened the level of criminal extremism, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Such groups , some of whom have been involved in armed hostilities since the report was withdrawn, are also often openly white supremacist, hostile to immigrants, Islamophobic and prone to anti-government conspiracies.

In other words, they are not unlike Donald Trump's base . And while this is the time that we would normally expect calls for all moderate militiamen to stand up and condemn the violent extremism within their midst, don't hold your breath. Republican Senator and presidential candidate Ted Cruz will probably not ignore political correctness and ask, "How can we defeat radical white terrorism with Presidential candidates who refuse to utter the words 'radical white terrorists?'" Trump, who recently said that he's in favor of killing the family of terrorists to defeat extremists, will assuredly not apply the same standard to white American "militia" members, even if they do employ the violence they've promised.

The sad truth is that extremists – both at home and abroad – are often disaffected, frightened and angry people desperately searching for purpose, validation and meaning in a world they feel has left them behind. It's a sickness that can infect almost anyone, regardless of race, ethnicity, religion or gender.

It's certainly taken hold of Jon Ritzheimer, a US Marine veteran involved in the Oregon stand-off . He's a member of the Three Percenter club , which alleges that their armed and trained members are "defenders of the constitution" willing to "protect our rights against a tyrannical government and foreign invaders". (Like Bundy, they do not condone any threats or intimidation tactics "unless an action is warranted".) Ritzheimer also led the armed, anti Muslim mosque protests earlier this year in Arizona .

Before taking over the wildlife refuge, Ritzheimer – like other extremists before him – posted a "goodbye" video for his family rationalizing his actions as defending freedom against a "tyrannical government." "I didn't come here to shoot, I came here to die," echoed another militia member , who identified himself only as "Captain Moroni".

Extremism comes in different colors, ethnicities, beards and head coverings – which is why racial profiling cannot protect us from all extremist violence. Maybe it's time for politicians and law enforcement to acknowledge inconvenient truths and confront the extremists with "American" names and grievances as they would any other. The security of our homeland – or at least our national wildlife refuges – might depend on it.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/if-the-oregon-militiamen-were-muslim-or-black-theyd-be-dead-by-now/#.VorpMJZnNIs.facebook
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on January 05, 2016, 02:11:41 AM
I'm in two minds about this one.

First and foremost, they can't be allowed to get away with this. These scumbags need to be arrested and prosecuted. Otherwise, what's stopping any moron with an issue, real or imagined, heading into their local federal government office for whatever and taking over the place.

That said, how to bring it to an end is the issue. Do they blockage them, turn off power and prevent supplies reaching them and just wait them out? Or do they negotiate and try to coax them out once they see the futility of what they're doing?

And sure enough, some moronic minor Republicans were quick off the mark with their support for these idiots. Thankfully, the likes of Cruz and Kasich recognize the wider implications and told them to end it immediately.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 05, 2016, 03:38:32 AM
Quote from: J70 on January 05, 2016, 02:11:41 AM
I'm in two minds about this one.

First and foremost, they can't be allowed to get away with this. These scumbags need to be arrested and prosecuted. Otherwise, what's stopping any moron with an issue, real or imagined, heading into their local federal government office for whatever and taking over the place.

That said, how to bring it to an end is the issue. Do they blockage them, turn off power and prevent supplies reaching them and just wait them out? Or do they negotiate and try to coax them out once they see the futility of what they're doing?

And sure enough, some moronic minor Republicans were quick off the mark with their support for these idiots. Thankfully, the likes of Cruz and Kasich recognize the wider implications and told them to end it immediately.

Air strikes.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on January 05, 2016, 05:00:38 PM
Does this constitute proper action on guns finally? It's not taking guns out of hands per se but it is a 'f**k you' to the NRA that he's gone the Executive Order route. I'm not sure of the ins and outs but is this the best he can do?

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/05/politics/obama-executive-action-gun-control/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on January 06, 2016, 12:25:37 AM
It's very little, screen, and it'll be fought tooth and nail every inch of the way.  Very dispiriting.

As for the Oregon Cowboys, I believe their access to public telephones, public electricity and public roads may well be cut off.  Lovely place to be this frigid time of the year.  Hope they keep their word and stay there for eons.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on January 06, 2016, 12:42:53 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on January 06, 2016, 12:25:37 AM
It's very little, screen, and it'll be fought tooth and nail every inch of the way.  Very dispiriting.

As for the Oregon Cowboys, I believe their access to public telephones, public electricity and public roads may well be cut off.  Lovely place to be this frigid time of the year.  Hope they keep their word and stay there for eons.

They wont, they will be fecked into trucks in body bags if they do not leave peacefully, that said since this prez is in office it might have to wait until Clinton gets in office................................. Feck me they could be there nine years because the Democrats are as useless as teats on a bull! Especially the Prez, maybe he can drop leaflets from the sky asking them to please, pretty please, leave the area! Absolute tosser the Prez, toothless, spineless dolt!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on January 06, 2016, 02:50:03 AM
Quote from: stew on January 06, 2016, 12:42:53 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on January 06, 2016, 12:25:37 AM
It's very little, screen, and it'll be fought tooth and nail every inch of the way.  Very dispiriting.

As for the Oregon Cowboys, I believe their access to public telephones, public electricity and public roads may well be cut off.  Lovely place to be this frigid time of the year.  Hope they keep their word and stay there for eons.

They wont, they will be fecked into trucks in body bags if they do not leave peacefully, that said since this prez is in office it might have to wait until Clinton gets in office................................. Feck me they could be there nine years because the Democrats are as useless as teats on a bull! Especially the Prez, maybe he can drop leaflets from the sky asking them to please, pretty please, leave the area! Absolute t**ser the Prez, toothless, spineless dolt!

What should Obama do in this case Stew?

Should he forget the lessons Bush (Ruby Ridge) and Clinton (Waco) learned in the early 90s and provoke the gun fight these men say they're ready for?

Or do what Clinton later did with the Montana Freemen and wait, negotiate and eventually trick them into peaceful arrests?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on January 06, 2016, 02:53:31 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on January 06, 2016, 12:25:37 AM
It's very little, screen, and it'll be fought tooth and nail every inch of the way.  Very dispiriting.

As for the Oregon Cowboys, I believe their access to public telephones, public electricity and public roads may well be cut off.  Lovely place to be this frigid time of the year.  Hope they keep their word and stay there for eons.

It is very little, despite the predictable hysterics of the GOP presidential candidates and congresssional leaders today.

I do wonder, however, how extending background checks can be unconstitutional when they already exist for 60% of gun sales?? :o

Do these people really think their followers are morons?  ;D

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on January 06, 2016, 03:45:45 AM
J70, I've amended my view.  Their followers ARE morons, and they're heavily armed, and incensed by fear-mongering TV ads from Ted Cruz saying that "Obama is going to take your guns."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 06, 2016, 04:45:39 AM
Quote from: stew on January 06, 2016, 12:42:53 AM
Absolute t**ser the Prez, toothless, spineless dolt!

Does Bin Laden agree?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 06, 2016, 04:46:22 AM
Quote from: J70 on January 06, 2016, 02:53:31 AM
Do these people really think their followers are morons?  ;D

They know their followers are morons.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on January 06, 2016, 07:36:46 AM
The GOP will not move on gun control

Over to the Indigo girls.

Darkness has a hunger that's insatiable and lightness has a hunger that's hard to hear
I wrapped my fear around me like a blanket. I sailed my ship of safety til I sank it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUgwM1Ky228


Ike would not recognize today's GOP
Run by small men in thrall to great wealth and the vicious likes of Wayne la Pierre

another thing that isn't given enough attention in the gun debate is America's problem with mental illness , especially for poor people . Treatment in Ireland is far, far superior

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/12/17/under-lock-key-how-long/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on January 06, 2016, 03:24:31 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 06, 2016, 04:45:39 AM
Quote from: stew on January 06, 2016, 12:42:53 AM
Absolute t**ser the Prez, toothless, spineless dolt!

Does Bin Laden agree?

Best US President of my lifetime and it's not even close.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 02:10:31 PM
Shocking Remarks (http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/obama-continues-to-stubbornly-link-gun-violence-with-guns?mbid=nl_010616%20Borowitz%20Newsletter%20(1)&CNDID=29767722&spMailingID=8405432&spUserID=NjA5ODA5NzYzMzkS1&spJobID=840621955&spReportId=ODQwNjIxOTU1S0)

(Try not to watch the annoying video at the bottom - it has nothing to do with the piece.)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on January 07, 2016, 02:35:35 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 02:10:31 PM
Shocking Remarks (http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/obama-continues-to-stubbornly-link-gun-violence-with-guns?mbid=nl_010616%20Borowitz%20Newsletter%20(1)&CNDID=29767722&spMailingID=8405432&spUserID=NjA5ODA5NzYzMzkS1&spJobID=840621955&spReportId=ODQwNjIxOTU1S0)

(Try not to watch the annoying video at the bottom - it has nothing to do with the piece.)

That about sums it up!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 07, 2016, 02:39:11 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 07, 2016, 02:35:35 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 02:10:31 PM
Shocking Remarks (http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/obama-continues-to-stubbornly-link-gun-violence-with-guns?mbid=nl_010616%20Borowitz%20Newsletter%20(1)&CNDID=29767722&spMailingID=8405432&spUserID=NjA5ODA5NzYzMzkS1&spJobID=840621955&spReportId=ODQwNjIxOTU1S0)

(Try not to watch the annoying video at the bottom - it has nothing to do with the piece.)

That about sums it up!

You wouldn't  have 1000 Muslims groping and raping outside a train station on New Year's Eve in TX-LOL
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 02:40:44 PM
Whom did 1000 Muslims rape and what train station was that?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 07, 2016, 02:50:54 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 02:40:44 PM
Whom did 1000 Muslims rape and what train station was that?

Cologne...(and note I said rape AND GROPE)

The cover up/media silence as evidence of you even asking is even more disturbing than what happened
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 02:59:40 PM
Jesus! Can you point me to the reports where 1,000 Muslims raped (AND groped!) people? I have to read about this, because the media here are reporting ONE rape. I can't imagine 1,000 of them raped one woman.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 03:07:46 PM
By the way, it's the strangest form of "cover up/media silence" I've ever seen to have this story on the home page of virtually every serious online news outlet in the world. It was headline news on all the terrestrial TV channels here last night and second item on BBC Newsnight. The most ear-splitting silence in history.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:08:29 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 02:59:40 PM
Jesus! Can you point me to the reports where 1,000 Muslims raped (AND groped!) people? I have to read about this, because the media here are reporting ONE rape. I can't imagine 1,000 of them raped one woman.

so you did know about it after all
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 03:14:41 PM
Nope. You'l have to tell me where I can find the report of 1,000 Muslim rapists.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:15:19 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 03:07:46 PM
By the way, it's the strangest form of "cover up/media silence" I've ever seen to have this story on the home page of virtually every serious online news outlet in the world. It was headline news on all the terrestrial TV channels here last night and second item on BBC Newsnight. The most ear-splitting silence in history.

5 days after it happened

Don't take my word for it:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/06/tensions-rise-in-germany-over-handling-of-mass-sexual-assaults-in-cologne

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/world/europe/coordinated-attacks-on-women-in-cologne-were-unprecedented-germany-says.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/



Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 03:23:58 PM
So you post links to reports of the story as evidence that the story wasn't reported?

As I said, leading headline on virtually every news outlet in the West in your particular La-La-land is "media silence". "Police accused of cover-up" is, in the whitey-cloud, proof of a cover-up.

Still waiting for that link to the "1,000 Muslim rapists" story.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on January 07, 2016, 03:38:22 PM
So of 100 complaints... two thirds were to do with Sexual assault including 2 rapes and you have translated that to 1,000 Muslims!!

Did you do maths at school whitey? Maybe you missed Maths and your 'ban all Muslims' mate Trump missed Geography and he'll be posting more hyperbole on his Twitter feed about madness in Cologne France shortly!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:38:34 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 03:23:58 PM
So you post links to reports of the story as evidence that the story wasn't reported?

As I said, leading headline on virtually every news outlet in the West in your particular La-La-land is "media silence". "Police accused of cover-up" is, in the whitey-cloud, proof of a cover-up.

Still waiting for that link to the "1,000 Muslim rapists" story.

Not just me saying it was a cover up-I guess the left wing NY Times and Guardian also inhabit my lala land.

I never said there were 1000 rapists-go back and read exactly what I said
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:41:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 07, 2016, 03:38:22 PM
So of 100 complaints... two thirds were to do with Sexual assault including 2 rapes and you have translated that to 1,000 Muslims!!

Did you do maths at school whitey? Maybe you missed Maths and your 'ban all Muslims' mate Trump missed Geography and he'll be posting more hyperbole on his Twitter feed about madness in Cologne France shortly!!

That's the head in the sand attitude that enabled the grooming gangs in Northern England

Everyone afraid of being politically incorrect

Also led to a lady in CA not calling in suspicious activity by Middle Eastern men in weeks leading up to San Bernardino
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on January 07, 2016, 03:49:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:41:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 07, 2016, 03:38:22 PM
So of 100 complaints... two thirds were to do with Sexual assault including 2 rapes and you have translated that to 1,000 Muslims!!

Did you do maths at school whitey? Maybe you missed Maths and your 'ban all Muslims' mate Trump missed Geography and he'll be posting more hyperbole on his Twitter feed about madness in Cologne France shortly!!

That's the head in the sand attitude that enabled the grooming gangs in Northern England

Everyone afraid of being politically incorrect

Also led to a lady in CA not calling in suspicious activity by Middle Eastern men in weeks leading up to San Bernardino

Have you read my post? Where have I said that a woman shouldn't call in suspicious activity regardless of someone's race? Where have I said that the people who carried out these crimes shouldn't be locked up?

You've pulled a figure of 1000 Muslims out of thin air to sensationalise your point when it is patently not the case. Never let the truth get in the way of a good scaremongering!!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 03:50:25 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:38:34 PM
I never said there were 1000 rapists-go back and read exactly what I said

Was it Bush who called that "plausible deniability"? The problem with this attempt at plausible deniability is the plausible bit.

No. You've been found out. Mind you, finding you out was as difficult as stepping on a dog turd to find out Fido needs house training.

You apply the standard toolset of the bigot - hate and xenophobia, anger and irrational fear. Invent something to fear, then stoke up anger based on that unfounded fear. After that comes the promise that you have the answer to something that was never even a question.

Note I'm not saying you yourself are a bigot, driven by hate and xenophobia, anger and irrational fear. See? That's how plausible deniability works. As you're not, you'll be man enough to apologise for the "1,000 rapists" lie and the mealy-mouthed attempt to (implausibly) deny it when found out.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:58:55 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 03:50:25 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:38:34 PM
I never said there were 1000 rapists-go back and read exactly what I said

Was it Bush who called that "plausible deniability"? The problem with this attempt at plausible deniability is the plausible bit.

No. You've been found out. Mind you, finding you out was as difficult as stepping on a dog turd to find out Fido needs house training.

You apply the standard toolset of the bigot - hate and xenophobia, anger and irrational fear. Invent something to fear, then stoke up anger based on that unfounded fear. After that comes the promise that you have the answer to something that was never even a question.

Note I'm not saying you yourself are a bigot, driven by hate and xenophobia, anger and irrational fear. See? That's how plausible deniability works. As you're not, you'll be man enough to apologise for the "1,000 rapists" lie and the mealy-mouthed attempt to (implausibly) deny it when found out.

Well agree to disagree

I stand by my comments and will be proven right in time, the same way those who questioned whether all the "refugees" we're in fact refugees or just "economic migrants"

Anyone who dared question was branded as Islamophobic/Xenophobic/Rascist.

Luckily your "safe space" doesn't exist on the board and more than one viewpoint is permissible
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: HiMucker on January 07, 2016, 04:03:29 PM
The BBC said a 1000 men of Arab or North African appearance were at the station in Cologne.  Not a big jump for some people to immediately read that as 1000 muslims whether wrong or not
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 04:11:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:58:55 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 03:50:25 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:38:34 PM
I never said there were 1000 rapists-go back and read exactly what I said

Was it Bush who called that "plausible deniability"? The problem with this attempt at plausible deniability is the plausible bit.

No. You've been found out. Mind you, finding you out was as difficult as stepping on a dog turd to find out Fido needs house training.

You apply the standard toolset of the bigot - hate and xenophobia, anger and irrational fear. Invent something to fear, then stoke up anger based on that unfounded fear. After that comes the promise that you have the answer to something that was never even a question.

Note I'm not saying you yourself are a bigot, driven by hate and xenophobia, anger and irrational fear. See? That's how plausible deniability works. As you're not, you'll be man enough to apologise for the "1,000 rapists" lie and the mealy-mouthed attempt to (implausibly) deny it when found out.


I stand by my comments and will be proven right in time, the same way those who questioned whether all the "refugees" we're in fact refugees or just "economic migrants"
There were no 1,000 rapists, so, no - you won't be proven right.

Quote
Anyone who dared question was branded as Islamophobic/Xenophobic/Rascist.
Another lie and typical of the hysteria and fear mongering you people* indulge in.
*I know.

Quote
Luckily your "safe space" doesn't exist on the board and more than one viewpoint is permissible
To mangle a phrase, you're entitled to your own viewpoint but you're not entitled to your own facts.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: foxcommander on January 07, 2016, 04:20:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:58:55 PM
Well agree to disagree

I stand by my comments and will be proven right in time, the same way those who questioned whether all the "refugees" we're in fact refugees or just "economic migrants"

Anyone who dared question was branded as Islamophobic/Xenophobic/Rascist.

Luckily your "safe space" doesn't exist on the board and more than one viewpoint is permissible

Wasting your time Whitey. The PC brigade will only realise when it's too late.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: deiseach on January 07, 2016, 04:24:57 PM
It's true that this kind of thing would never happen in Texas. The victims and the perpetrators were not cousins.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 07, 2016, 04:32:08 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 07, 2016, 04:24:57 PM
It's true that this kind of thing would never happen in Texas. The victims and the perpetrators were not cousins.

Glad you find it funny that hundreds of women had to run for their lives and that the unarmed policemen were surrounded by an angry horde every time they attempted to intervene
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on January 07, 2016, 05:50:15 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 04:32:08 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 07, 2016, 04:24:57 PM
It's true that this kind of thing would never happen in Texas. The victims and the perpetrators were not cousins.

Glad you find it funny that hundreds of women had to run for their lives and that the unarmed policemen were surrounded by an angry horde every time they attempted to intervene
If something similar happens in Ireland these boys will change their tune pretty fast I'm sure.
Very easy to be a great humanitarian when none of these issues are Going on in you're town or village.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on January 07, 2016, 08:35:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:41:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 07, 2016, 03:38:22 PM
So of 100 complaints... two thirds were to do with Sexual assault including 2 rapes and you have translated that to 1,000 Muslims!!

Did you do maths at school whitey? Maybe you missed Maths and your 'ban all Muslims' mate Trump missed Geography and he'll be posting more hyperbole on his Twitter feed about madness in Cologne France shortly!!

That's the head in the sand attitude that enabled the grooming gangs in Northern England

Everyone afraid of being politically incorrect

Also led to a lady in CA not calling in suspicio
us activity by Middle Eastern men in weeks leading up to San Bernardino

Obama is a disaster on political correctness, under his watch the pc movement has grown expotentially, in fact he said he liked the fact the affordable care act was labelled. "Obamacare' Yet a staffer on tv said it was racist to call it that, and this month's after he spoke on the subject.

Black lives matter, students at ivy league schools protesting their lot in life, students demanding a say in who the top officials get prominent jobs,all under the prez's watch.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on January 07, 2016, 08:39:47 PM
Awful weather too.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: deiseach on January 07, 2016, 09:02:03 PM
Quote from: Gmac on January 07, 2016, 05:50:15 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 04:32:08 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 07, 2016, 04:24:57 PM
It's true that this kind of thing would never happen in Texas. The victims and the perpetrators were not cousins.

Glad you find it funny that hundreds of women had to run for their lives and that the unarmed policemen were surrounded by an angry horde every time they attempted to intervene
If something similar happens in Ireland these boys will change their tune pretty fast I'm sure.
Very easy to be a great humanitarian when none of these issues are Going on in you're town or village.

How about sparing some of that humanitarian impulse for the hundreds of Texan women who routinely flee from good ol' boys unencumbered by such things as a law to ensure background checks when buying a firearm on anyone who has a conviction for domestic violence, or those Texans afraid to call the police for fear that they may open fire on anyone who has fingers that look like guns? Or is it only the victims of violence perpetrated by dark-skinned people that we should concern ourselves with?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on January 07, 2016, 11:26:52 PM
Quote from: stew on January 07, 2016, 08:35:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:41:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 07, 2016, 03:38:22 PM
So of 100 complaints... two thirds were to do with Sexual assault including 2 rapes and you have translated that to 1,000 Muslims!!

Did you do maths at school whitey? Maybe you missed Maths and your 'ban all Muslims' mate Trump missed Geography and he'll be posting more hyperbole on his Twitter feed about madness in Cologne France shortly!!

That's the head in the sand attitude that enabled the grooming gangs in Northern England

Everyone afraid of being politically incorrect

Also led to a lady in CA not calling in suspicio
us activity by Middle Eastern men in weeks leading up to San Bernardino

Obama is a disaster on political correctness, under his watch the pc movement has grown expotentially, in fact he said he liked the fact the affordable care act was labelled. "Obamacare' Yet a staffer on tv said it was racist to call it that, and this month's after he spoke on the subject.

Black lives matter, students at ivy league schools protesting their lot in life, students demanding a say in who the top officials get prominent jobs,all under the prez's watch.

Such gibberish.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: macdanger2 on January 08, 2016, 12:33:35 AM
Quote from: Gmac on January 07, 2016, 05:50:15 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 04:32:08 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 07, 2016, 04:24:57 PM
It's true that this kind of thing would never happen in Texas. The victims and the perpetrators were not cousins.

Glad you find it funny that hundreds of women had to run for their lives and that the unarmed policemen were surrounded by an angry horde every time they attempted to intervene
If something similar happens in Ireland these boys will change their tune pretty fast I'm sure.
Very easy to be a great humanitarian when none of these issues are Going on in you're town or village.

If something similar happens in Ireland, these boys will change their tune pretty fast I'm sure.
Very easy to be a great anti-immigrant when none of these wars are going on in your town or village
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on January 08, 2016, 01:21:57 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on January 08, 2016, 12:33:35 AM
Quote from: Gmac on January 07, 2016, 05:50:15 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 04:32:08 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 07, 2016, 04:24:57 PM
It's true that this kind of thing would never happen in Texas. The victims and the perpetrators were not cousins.

Glad you find it funny that hundreds of women had to run for their lives and that the unarmed policemen were surrounded by an angry horde every time they attempted to intervene
If something similar happens in Ireland these boys will change their tune pretty fast I'm sure.
Very easy to be a great humanitarian when none of these issues are Going on in you're town or village.

If something similar happens in Ireland, these boys will change their tune pretty fast I'm sure.
Very easy to be a great anti-immigrant when none of these wars are going on in your town or village
oh I forgot they were immigrants the cops should have set up a secure perimeter for them and let them grope away inside. Maybe if they came out of the Stone Age and were able to see some skin on a woman they might be able to control themselves
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on January 08, 2016, 01:40:15 AM
Quote from: stew on January 07, 2016, 08:35:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:41:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 07, 2016, 03:38:22 PM
So of 100 complaints... two thirds were to do with Sexual assault including 2 rapes and you have translated that to 1,000 Muslims!!

Did you do maths at school whitey? Maybe you missed Maths and your 'ban all Muslims' mate Trump missed Geography and he'll be posting more hyperbole on his Twitter feed about madness in Cologne France shortly!!

That's the head in the sand attitude that enabled the grooming gangs in Northern England

Everyone afraid of being politically incorrect

Also led to a lady in CA not calling in suspicio
us activity by Middle Eastern men in weeks leading up to San Bernardino

Obama is a disaster on political correctness, under his watch the pc movement has grown expotentially, in fact he said he liked the fact the affordable care act was labelled. "Obamacare' Yet a staffer on tv said it was racist to call it that, and this month's after he spoke on the subject.

Black lives matter, students at ivy league schools protesting their lot in life, students demanding a say in who the top officials get prominent jobs,all under the prez's watch.

Obama is responsible for the supposed growth of the PC movement (whatever the hell that means)?? ;D

The only reference I can find to your Obamacare term being racist is from Melissa Harris Perry, who is a political commentator, not an administration staffer. What her opinion has to do with Obama's, you will have to explain.

You keep whining about BLM, yet never provide ANYTHING in the way of evidence to support your opinion that it is a bad thing or that it was not an inevitable development. And if the backlash against racism sometimes goes too far or sometimes descends into silliness, that is hardly an indictment of the legitimacy of the grievances in the first place.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on January 08, 2016, 02:18:35 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 08, 2016, 01:40:15 AM
Quote from: stew on January 07, 2016, 08:35:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:41:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 07, 2016, 03:38:22 PM
So of 100 complaints... two thirds were to do with Sexual assault including 2 rapes and you have translated that to 1,000 Muslims!!

Did you do maths at school whitey? Maybe you missed Maths and your 'ban all Muslims' mate Trump missed Geography and he'll be posting more hyperbole on his Twitter feed about madness in Cologne France shortly!!

That's the head in the sand attitude that enabled the grooming gangs in Northern England

Everyone afraid of being politically incorrect

Also led to a lady in CA not calling in suspicio
us activity by Middle Eastern men in weeks leading up to San Bernardino

Obama is a disaster on political correctness, under his watch the pc movement has grown expotentially, in fact he said he liked the fact the affordable care act was labelled. "Obamacare' Yet a staffer on tv said it was racist to call it that, and this month's after he spoke on the subject.

Black lives matter, students at ivy league schools protesting their lot in life, students demanding a say in who the top officials get prominent jobs,all under the prez's watch.

Obama is responsible for the supposed growth of the PC movement (whatever the hell that means)?? ;D

The only reference I can find to your Obamacare term being racist is from Melissa Harris Perry, who is a political commentator, not an administration staffer. What her opinion has to do with Obama's, you will have to explain.

You keep whining about BLM, yet never provide ANYTHING in the way of evidence to support your opinion that it is a bad thing or that it was not an inevitable development. And if the backlash against racism sometimes goes too far or sometimes descends into silliness, that is hardly an indictment of the legitimacy of the grievances in the first place.

I have spoken about my problems with blm, ' Pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon' A cop just got shot as he was sitting in his cruiser, bothering nobody, these bastards chanting this shit should be jailed for incitement to hatred, it is a racist organization as it kicks out non black participants at times so they ' Can heal' they are demanding to have a say in who gets hired at colleges in senior positions and they not once mentioned the killing in Chicago of a young kid who got dead because his da was in a gang feud, in essence these hoors are agenda driven, they want cops hurt and they disrupted libraries and students studying for finals with their so called ptotest, they are arseholes, they have legitimate grievances however their leadership is lacking and they are left wing neoliberals who are quick to blame and are accountable for nothing!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on January 08, 2016, 02:30:53 PM
Quote from: Gmac on January 08, 2016, 01:21:57 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on January 08, 2016, 12:33:35 AM
Quote from: Gmac on January 07, 2016, 05:50:15 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 04:32:08 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 07, 2016, 04:24:57 PM
It's true that this kind of thing would never happen in Texas. The victims and the perpetrators were not cousins.

Glad you find it funny that hundreds of women had to run for their lives and that the unarmed policemen were surrounded by an angry horde every time they attempted to intervene
If something similar happens in Ireland these boys will change their tune pretty fast I'm sure.
Very easy to be a great humanitarian when none of these issues are Going on in you're town or village.

If something similar happens in Ireland, these boys will change their tune pretty fast I'm sure.
Very easy to be a great anti-immigrant when none of these wars are going on in your town or village
oh I forgot they were immigrants the cops should have set up a secure perimeter for them and let them grope away inside. Maybe if they came out of the Stone Age and were able to see some skin on a woman they might be able to control themselves

This wouldn't be happening if the Muslim men, 18 - 6p has stayed and fought to get that f**ker Assad kicked out of office, Merkel is on at the beginning of a nightmare, these people will not integrate and will demand their own laws, schools,  government, banking system. Europe is cream crackered, we just don't know it yet.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on January 08, 2016, 02:35:52 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-ownership-around-the-world-2016-1?utm_content=buffer317fd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer&IR=T (http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-ownership-around-the-world-2016-1?utm_content=buffer317fd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer&IR=T)

Some perspective on the figures of gun ownership worldwide
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on January 08, 2016, 02:59:07 PM
Quote from: Declan on January 08, 2016, 02:35:52 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-ownership-around-the-world-2016-1?utm_content=buffer317fd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer&IR=T (http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-ownership-around-the-world-2016-1?utm_content=buffer317fd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer&IR=T)

Some perspective on the figures of gun ownership worldwide

Sure that report was made up by some neo-liberal pussy ass dolt with an agenda..... :-\
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on January 08, 2016, 03:17:45 PM
 Why didn't all the German men 18-60 just fight to get that Hitler removed from office........
That Stew is something else. ::)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Arthur_Friend on January 08, 2016, 03:27:49 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2016, 03:17:45 PM
Why didn't all the German men 18-60 just fight to get that Hitler removed from office........
That Stew is something else. ::)

An idiot is what he is. How does the Syrian war compare with the wars you have fought in Stew? Brave man that you are.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on January 08, 2016, 04:14:18 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on January 08, 2016, 03:27:49 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2016, 03:17:45 PM
Why didn't all the German men 18-60 just fight to get that Hitler removed from office........
That Stew is something else. ::)

An idiot is what he is. How does the Syrian war compare with the wars you have fought in Stew? Brave man that you are.

So they are cowards then, is that it? My country never went to war with anybody you balloon!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on January 08, 2016, 04:19:43 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2016, 03:17:45 PM
Why didn't all the German men 18-60 just fight to get that Hitler removed from office........
That Stew is something else. ::)

The Germans were oppressed by crippling reparations, Hitler tapped in the mood of the day and killed anyone he considered a threat, like the brownsjirts for example, I would say Billory would know more about the waft of murder than would the Donald.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Arthur_Friend on January 08, 2016, 05:01:07 PM
Quote from: stew on January 08, 2016, 04:14:18 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on January 08, 2016, 03:27:49 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2016, 03:17:45 PM
Why didn't all the German men 18-60 just fight to get that Hitler removed from office........
That Stew is something else. ::)

An idiot is what he is. How does the Syrian war compare with the wars you have fought in Stew? Brave man that you are.

So they are cowards then, is that it? My country never went to war with anybody you balloon!

You bravely chastise others for not fighting in a war when you have zero experience of what it might be like to have to live in a war zone. According to you they should all just stay and fight to the death in a war which is not of their making as the US, EU, NATO, Russia, Turkey, etc. all move their chess pieces around. You truly are a cretin.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on January 08, 2016, 06:06:31 PM
Quote from: stew on January 08, 2016, 02:18:35 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 08, 2016, 01:40:15 AM
Quote from: stew on January 07, 2016, 08:35:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 07, 2016, 03:41:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 07, 2016, 03:38:22 PM
So of 100 complaints... two thirds were to do with Sexual assault including 2 rapes and you have translated that to 1,000 Muslims!!

Did you do maths at school whitey? Maybe you missed Maths and your 'ban all Muslims' mate Trump missed Geography and he'll be posting more hyperbole on his Twitter feed about madness in Cologne France shortly!!

That's the head in the sand attitude that enabled the grooming gangs in Northern England

Everyone afraid of being politically incorrect

Also led to a lady in CA not calling in suspicio
us activity by Middle Eastern men in weeks leading up to San Bernardino

Obama is a disaster on political correctness, under his watch the pc movement has grown expotentially, in fact he said he liked the fact the affordable care act was labelled. "Obamacare' Yet a staffer on tv said it was racist to call it that, and this month's after he spoke on the subject.

Black lives matter, students at ivy league schools protesting their lot in life, students demanding a say in who the top officials get prominent jobs,all under the prez's watch.

Obama is responsible for the supposed growth of the PC movement (whatever the hell that means)?? ;D

The only reference I can find to your Obamacare term being racist is from Melissa Harris Perry, who is a political commentator, not an administration staffer. What her opinion has to do with Obama's, you will have to explain.

You keep whining about BLM, yet never provide ANYTHING in the way of evidence to support your opinion that it is a bad thing or that it was not an inevitable development. And if the backlash against racism sometimes goes too far or sometimes descends into silliness, that is hardly an indictment of the legitimacy of the grievances in the first place.

I have spoken about my problems with blm, ' Pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon' A cop just got shot as he was sitting in his cruiser, bothering nobody, these b**tards chanting this shit should be jailed for incitement to hatred, it is a racist organization as it kicks out non black participants at times so they ' Can heal' they are demanding to have a say in who gets hired at colleges in senior positions and they not once mentioned the killing in Chicago of a young kid who got dead because his da was in a gang feud, in essence these hoors are agenda driven, they want cops hurt and they disrupted libraries and students studying for finals with their so called ptotest, they are arseholes, they have legitimate grievances however their leadership is lacking and they are left wing neoliberals who are quick to blame and are accountable for nothing!

What cop got shot and by whom and how was it connected to BLM?

What non-blacks were kicked out?

You throw these vague references in there but don't detail any connection to BLM.

Beyond the Missouri university thing, which was legitimate, what other college leaders have been challenged and why? (I can only think of some comically ill-considered appeal to rename some "Lynch College" and the perhaps worth-discussing issues with Woodrow Wilson and Princeton).

They don't have a central leadership or organization. I'm sure its excellent in some locations and lousy in others. Similarly with the participants and hangers-on and co-opters. Same as any other decentralized operation. And the tactics they adopt probably reflects that at times e.g. the student finals, offensive chants. Should Trump be shut down because some idiots at his rallies occasionally cross the line in dealing with protesters? 

And of course they have an agenda - to stop the relative victimization of black people at the hands of the state!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on January 08, 2016, 08:14:17 PM
'And of course they have an agenda - to stop the relative victimization of black people at the hands of the state'

They have an agenda of hoping to have cops killed because of their perceived bias against black people, that is a fact!

Where were they when the black kid was killed by a black man just because his dad was a gang banger..................................... We got crickets from them!

A cop got shot today by a Isis sympathizer, they are trying to ascertain was he commanded to do it via the internet but they got the bastard.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on January 08, 2016, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: stew on January 08, 2016, 08:14:17 PM
'And of course they have an agenda - to stop the relative victimization of black people at the hands of the state'

They have an agenda of hoping to have cops killed because of their perceived bias against black people, that is a fact!

Where were they when the black kid was killed by a black man just because his dad was a gang banger..................................... We got crickets from them!

A cop got shot today by a Isis sympathizer, they are trying to ascertain was he commanded to do it via the internet but they got the b**tard.

Their agenda is dead cops? Don't be stupid.

Fair point on second issue, but it doesn't mean their primary grievance is misplaced.

What does ISIS have to do with BLM?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on January 08, 2016, 09:54:07 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 08, 2016, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: stew on January 08, 2016, 08:14:17 PM
'And of course they have an agenda - to stop the relative victimization of black people at the hands of the state'

They have an agenda of hoping to have cops killed because of their perceived bias against black people, that is a fact!

Where were they when the black kid was killed by a black man just because his dad was a gang banger..................................... We got crickets from them!

A cop got shot today by a Isis sympathizer, they are trying to ascertain was he commanded to do it via the internet but they got the b**tard.

Their agenda is dead cops? Don't be stupid.

Fair point on second issue, but it doesn't mean their primary grievance is misplaced.

What does ISIS have to do with BLM?

They want them fried like bacon ffs! Some of them love to see cops dead, don't be stupid!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on January 10, 2016, 02:10:00 PM
Quote from: stew on January 08, 2016, 09:54:07 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 08, 2016, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: stew on January 08, 2016, 08:14:17 PM
Quote
'And of course they have an agenda - to stop the relative victimization of black people at the hands of the state'

They have an agenda of hoping to have cops killed because of their perceived bias against black people, that is a fact!

Where were they when the black kid was killed by a black man just because his dad was a gang banger..................................... We got crickets from them!

A cop got shot today by a Isis sympathizer, they are trying to ascertain was he commanded to do it via the internet but they got the b**tard.

Their agenda is dead cops? Don't be stupid.

Fair point on second issue, but it doesn't mean their primary grievance is misplaced.

What does ISIS have to do with BLM?
They want them fried like bacon ffs! Some of them love to see cops dead, don't be stupid!


One offensive chant at the Minnesota State Fair last summer defines all aspects of the BLM movement?

How about we apply that logic to the GOP and the various despicable, vicious chants and responses of their supporters over the past few years at primary events?

Ron Paul supporters calling for people without health insurance to be let die instead of treated, gay military heros being abused by the crowd only because they are gay, roughing up protesters at Trump events.

I can go on if you like and if you want to indict an entire movement, including your good self, based on the rhetoric of a small minority.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GJL on March 10, 2016, 08:41:25 AM
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/gun-rights-activist-shot-by-4-year-old-son-after-claiming-he-was-jacked-up-to-fire-weapons/ar-AAgA1A4?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=DELLDHP (http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/gun-rights-activist-shot-by-4-year-old-son-after-claiming-he-was-jacked-up-to-fire-weapons/ar-AAgA1A4?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=DELLDHP)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on March 10, 2016, 09:02:51 AM
Another 5 people killed in a mass shooting in Pittsburgh, but hey, lets be angry at
Refugee's, immigrants, unemployed and Muslims.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/10/killed-injured-pittsburgh-shooting-allegheny-county

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on March 10, 2016, 09:04:47 AM
Quote from: J70 on January 10, 2016, 02:10:00 PM
Quote from: stew on January 08, 2016, 09:54:07 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 08, 2016, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: stew on January 08, 2016, 08:14:17 PM
Quote
'And of course they have an agenda - to stop the relative victimization of black people at the hands of the state'

They have an agenda of hoping to have cops killed because of their perceived bias against black people, that is a fact!

Where were they when the black kid was killed by a black man just because his dad was a gang banger..................................... We got crickets from them!

A cop got shot today by a Isis sympathizer, they are trying to ascertain was he commanded to do it via the internet but they got the b**tard.

Their agenda is dead cops? Don't be stupid.

Fair point on second issue, but it doesn't mean their primary grievance is misplaced.

What does ISIS have to do with BLM?
They want them fried like bacon ffs! Some of them love to see cops dead, don't be stupid!


One offensive chant at the Minnesota State Fair last summer defines all aspects of the BLM movement?

How about we apply that logic to the GOP and the various despicable, vicious chants and responses of their supporters over the past few years at primary events?

Ron Paul supporters calling for people without health insurance to be let die instead of treated, gay military heros being abused by the crowd only because they are gay, roughing up protesters at Trump events.

I can go on if you like and if you want to indict an entire movement, including your good self, based on the rhetoric of a small minority.

Go ahead, indict me bitch!😉
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on March 10, 2016, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: GJL on March 10, 2016, 08:41:25 AM
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/gun-rights-activist-shot-by-4-year-old-son-after-claiming-he-was-jacked-up-to-fire-weapons/ar-AAgA1A4?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=DELLDHP (http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/gun-rights-activist-shot-by-4-year-old-son-after-claiming-he-was-jacked-up-to-fire-weapons/ar-AAgA1A4?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=DELLDHP)

That could probably go on the Darwin Award thread as well.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on March 10, 2016, 10:21:21 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 10, 2016, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: GJL on March 10, 2016, 08:41:25 AM
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/gun-rights-activist-shot-by-4-year-old-son-after-claiming-he-was-jacked-up-to-fire-weapons/ar-AAgA1A4?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=DELLDHP (http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/gun-rights-activist-shot-by-4-year-old-son-after-claiming-he-was-jacked-up-to-fire-weapons/ar-AAgA1A4?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=DELLDHP)

That could probably go on the Darwin Award thread as well.

Absolutely, what a stupid bimbo, still, is slip her one.😉
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on March 10, 2016, 10:33:11 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on March 10, 2016, 09:02:51 AM
Another 5 people killed in a mass shooting in Pittsburgh, but hey, lets be angry at
Refugee's, immigrants, unemployed and Muslims.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/10/killed-injured-pittsburgh-shooting-allegheny-county

In fairness GHD did you not get mad at the Muslim scum that groped and raped their way in gang style in Germany? I know I did.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on March 10, 2016, 10:39:07 AM
Quote from: stew on March 10, 2016, 10:21:21 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 10, 2016, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: GJL on March 10, 2016, 08:41:25 AM
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/gun-rights-activist-shot-by-4-year-old-son-after-claiming-he-was-jacked-up-to-fire-weapons/ar-AAgA1A4?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=DELLDHP (http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/gun-rights-activist-shot-by-4-year-old-son-after-claiming-he-was-jacked-up-to-fire-weapons/ar-AAgA1A4?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=DELLDHP)

That could probably go on the Darwin Award thread as well.

Absolutely, what a stupid bimbo, still, is slip her one.😉

I'll agree with that!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on March 10, 2016, 12:40:33 PM
Quote from: stew on March 10, 2016, 10:33:11 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on March 10, 2016, 09:02:51 AM
Another 5 people killed in a mass shooting in Pittsburgh, but hey, lets be angry at
Refugee's, immigrants, unemployed and Muslims.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/10/killed-injured-pittsburgh-shooting-allegheny-county

In fairness GHD did you not get mad at the Muslim scum that groped and raped their way in gang style in Germany? I know I did.

In fairness Stew, as bad as it was, it wasn't as bad as the USA  blowing 150 Muslims to pieces in Somalia at the weekend.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on March 13, 2016, 08:10:15 PM
more americans killed by toddlers, than by terrorists in 2015.

http://www.snopes.com/toddlers-killed-americans-terrorists/

Very likely the absolutely scariest fact of this debate so far.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on March 14, 2016, 10:48:21 AM
Quote from: heganboy on March 13, 2016, 08:10:15 PM
more americans killed by toddlers, than by terrorists in 2015.

http://www.snopes.com/toddlers-killed-americans-terrorists/

Very likely the absolutely scariest fact of this debate so far.

Horrifying statistics out there, people should pay a heavy fine if a child is caught with a gun, and if they hurt someone jail time is in order for the idiot who allowed them access to the weapon.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on March 14, 2016, 10:55:15 AM
Quote from: stew on March 14, 2016, 10:48:21 AM
Quote from: heganboy on March 13, 2016, 08:10:15 PM
more americans killed by toddlers, than by terrorists in 2015.

http://www.snopes.com/toddlers-killed-americans-terrorists/

Very likely the absolutely scariest fact of this debate so far.

Horrifying statistics out there, people should pay a heavy fine if a child is caught with a gun, and if they hurt someone jail time is in order for the idiot who allowed them access to the weapon.

Agreed. That would include the NRA, many Democrats and most Republicans.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on March 14, 2016, 11:03:34 AM
Quote from: stew on March 14, 2016, 10:48:21 AM
Quote from: heganboy on March 13, 2016, 08:10:15 PM
more americans killed by toddlers, than by terrorists in 2015.

http://www.snopes.com/toddlers-killed-americans-terrorists/

Very likely the absolutely scariest fact of this debate so far.

Horrifying statistics out there, people should pay a heavy fine if a child is caught with a gun, and if they hurt someone jail time is in order for the idiot who allowed them access to the weapon.
100%
incredibly wreckless
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on April 21, 2016, 03:07:44 PM

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/two-year-old-dead-after-using-gun-he-found-in-mothers-handbag-730703.html
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on April 21, 2016, 03:17:30 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 21, 2016, 03:11:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 21, 2016, 03:07:44 PM
Another one bites the dust
http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/two-year-old-dead-after-using-gun-he-found-in-mothers-handbag-730703.html

Jaysus, that a bit heartless for a story about the death of a toddler.

Point taken.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on April 21, 2016, 07:20:13 PM
All Settler colonial countries have problems with violence that go back to the original etnic cleansing. The US will never be able to eradicate gun violence
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on April 23, 2016, 12:32:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 21, 2016, 07:20:13 PM
All Settler colonial countries have problems with violence that go back to the original etnic cleansing. The US will never be able to eradicate gun violence

Bullshite, killory is on it, she will sort the whole thing out.


Shuuurrreeee she will.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on April 27, 2016, 10:00:49 PM
And yet it's the Mulsims they fear not armed toddlers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36152462
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on April 28, 2016, 10:27:16 AM
Quote from: seafoid on April 21, 2016, 07:20:13 PM
All Settler colonial countries have problems with violence that go back to the original etnic cleansing. The US will never be able to eradicate gun violence

Perhaps, but the rate of gun death in Canada is notably different than in the US.

Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 27, 2016, 10:00:49 PM
And yet it's the Mulsims they fear not armed toddlers.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/mother-shot-by-her-young-son-while-driving-in-america-731705.html

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on April 28, 2016, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 21, 2016, 07:20:13 PM
All Settler colonial countries have problems with violence that go back to the original etnic cleansing. The US will never be able to eradicate gun violence
probably more to do with having a lot of justice involved youths running wild on the streets the new term the Obama administration has come up with for young  gangbangers.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 28, 2016, 11:37:56 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 28, 2016, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 21, 2016, 07:20:13 PM
All Settler colonial countries have problems with violence that go back to the original etnic cleansing. The US will never be able to eradicate gun violence
probably more to do with having a lot of justice involved youths running wild on the streets the new term the Obama administration has come up with for young  gangbangers.

Its actually an academic term, but yeah, it does sound a bit PC.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: macdanger2 on April 29, 2016, 11:01:22 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 28, 2016, 10:27:16 AM
Quote from: seafoid on April 21, 2016, 07:20:13 PM
All Settler colonial countries have problems with violence that go back to the original etnic cleansing. The US will never be able to eradicate gun violence

Perhaps, but the rate of gun death in Canada is notably different than in the US.

Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 27, 2016, 10:00:49 PM
And yet it's the Mulsims they fear not armed toddlers.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/mother-shot-by-her-young-son-while-driving-in-america-731705.html

Apart from anything else, should the child not have been in a car seat?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on May 01, 2016, 11:38:12 PM
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/young-boy-shoots-burglar-and-then-mocks-him-for-crying-like-a-baby-34675756.html
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 02, 2016, 12:54:09 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 01, 2016, 11:38:12 PM
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/young-boy-shoots-burglar-and-then-mocks-him-for-crying-like-a-baby-34675756.html

He hit him with the 12th out of 12 shots?! Where did those other bullets go??

And the burglar had already left the house?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on May 02, 2016, 02:44:53 AM
Quote from: J70 on May 02, 2016, 12:54:09 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 01, 2016, 11:38:12 PM
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/young-boy-shoots-burglar-and-then-mocks-him-for-crying-like-a-baby-34675756.html

He hit him with the 12th out of 12 shots?! Where did those other bullets go??

And the burglar had already left the house?
Down to the range for some target practice with dad for this kid
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 02, 2016, 02:08:23 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 02, 2016, 02:44:53 AM
Quote from: J70 on May 02, 2016, 12:54:09 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 01, 2016, 11:38:12 PM
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/young-boy-shoots-burglar-and-then-mocks-him-for-crying-like-a-baby-34675756.html

He hit him with the 12th out of 12 shots?! Where did those other bullets go??

And the burglar had already left the house?
Down to the range for some target practice with dad for this kid

How can what he did even be legal?

What if one of those numerous wild shots had hit a neighbour?

Does the fact that the burglar was fleeing with his back to him, having already left the house, meaning the kid was not in danger, mean nothing?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 02, 2016, 04:04:22 PM
I'd say fair play to the kid.....pity his aim wasn't better though....could've finished him off
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on May 02, 2016, 04:07:30 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 02, 2016, 02:08:23 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 02, 2016, 02:44:53 AM
Quote from: J70 on May 02, 2016, 12:54:09 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 01, 2016, 11:38:12 PM
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/young-boy-shoots-burglar-and-then-mocks-him-for-crying-like-a-baby-34675756.html

He hit him with the 12th out of 12 shots?! Where did those other bullets go??

And the burglar had already left the house?
Down to the range for some target practice with dad for this kid

How can what he did even be legal?

What if one of those numerous wild shots had hit a neighbour?

Does the fact that the burglar was fleeing with his back to him, having already left the house, meaning the kid was not in danger, mean nothing?

He was completely wrong the second the sc**bag fled, prior to that he was well within his rights to shoot the burglar dead.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 02, 2016, 04:28:54 PM
Quote from: stew on May 02, 2016, 04:07:30 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 02, 2016, 02:08:23 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 02, 2016, 02:44:53 AM
Quote from: J70 on May 02, 2016, 12:54:09 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 01, 2016, 11:38:12 PM
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/young-boy-shoots-burglar-and-then-mocks-him-for-crying-like-a-baby-34675756.html

He hit him with the 12th out of 12 shots?! Where did those other bullets go??

And the burglar had already left the house?
Down to the range for some target practice with dad for this kid

How can what he did even be legal?

What if one of those numerous wild shots had hit a neighbour?

Does the fact that the burglar was fleeing with his back to him, having already left the house, meaning the kid was not in danger, mean nothing?

He was completely wrong the second the sc**bag fled, prior to that he was well within his rights to shoot the burglar dead.

Agreed.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on May 06, 2016, 05:25:58 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/06/us/guns-children-deaths.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/06/us/guns-children-deaths.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0)

One Week in April, Four Toddlers Shot and Killed Themselves

.....In a country with more than 30,000 annual gun deaths, the smallest fingers on the trigger belong to children like Sha'Quille.

During a single week in April, four toddlers — Holston, Kiyan, Za'veon and Sha'Quille — shot and killed themselves, and a mother driving through Milwaukee was killed after her 2-year-old apparently picked up a gun that had slid out from under the driver's seat. It was a brutal stretch, even by the standards of researchers who track these shootings......
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: StGallsGAA on May 06, 2016, 08:31:07 PM
The NRA will blame the parents, not the gun culture.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on May 12, 2016, 10:04:19 AM
sc**bag!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3586152/George-Zimmerman-AUCTIONS-gun-used-kill-Trayvon-Martin-Acquitted-killer-describes-pistol-American-firearm-icon-used-end-brutal-attack-starts-bids-5-000.html
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on May 12, 2016, 10:16:21 AM
Quote from: screenexile on May 12, 2016, 10:04:19 AM
sc**bag!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3586152/George-Zimmerman-AUCTIONS-gun-used-kill-Trayvon-Martin-Acquitted-killer-describes-pistol-American-firearm-icon-used-end-brutal-attack-starts-bids-5-000.html

I don't know if the Daily Mail is reliable enough to believe the report into George Zimmerman's tweets and his recent run ins with the law, but if even half of it is true, those who defended him should be hanging their heads in shame. He appears to be a racist, wife-beating sc**bag. He is milking his infamy from shooting an unarmed teenager, for the money.

The news article doesn't do justice to the callousness of this coward. Have a look at the ad:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=558112068 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=558112068)

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on May 12, 2016, 10:35:45 AM
Sick.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on May 12, 2016, 10:43:04 AM
Quote from: screenexile on May 12, 2016, 10:04:19 AM
sc**bag!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3586152/George-Zimmerman-AUCTIONS-gun-used-kill-Trayvon-Martin-Acquitted-killer-describes-pistol-American-firearm-icon-used-end-brutal-attack-starts-bids-5-000.html

What a horrible  b@stard
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on May 23, 2016, 09:16:07 AM
Untold Damage: America's Overlooked Gun Violence. Most shootings with four deaths or injuries are invisible outside their communities. And most of the lives they scar are black. (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/us/americas-overlooked-gun-violence.html?emc=edit_na_20160522&nlid=55323348&ref=cta&_r=0)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on June 15, 2016, 07:10:57 PM
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13428367_1240430025980613_6710915099550311260_n.jpg?oh=053f7f6d56adb0f161b50b20a315feba&oe=57F9C34D)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on June 16, 2016, 01:31:47 PM
Impressive filibuster las night has paved way for some progress on the watch list
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: rosnarun on June 16, 2016, 02:49:59 PM
USA cant start with a clean slate . if there are already over 300 millions guns out there , who is gonna hand in theirs first .
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 04:00:19 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 16, 2016, 02:49:59 PM
USA cant start with a clean slate . if there are already over 300 millions guns out there , who is gonna hand in theirs first .
Exactly!
We are passed the point of no return.  People will not hand in guns and you can't take them off them.
The option is restrictions going forward directly at the manufacturing and store level. If it can't be bought then the wrong people can't buy it, I think anyway.
People have been brainwashed for decades by the NRA and there is no changing that.  The problem has to be addressed based on the situation on the ground not some pie in the sky hope for the future...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on June 16, 2016, 04:14:36 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 04:00:19 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 16, 2016, 02:49:59 PM
USA cant start with a clean slate . if there are already over 300 millions guns out there , who is gonna hand in theirs first .
Exactly!
We are passed the point of no return.  People will not hand in guns and you can't take them off them.
The option is restrictions going forward directly at the manufacturing and store level. If it can't be bought then the wrong people can't buy it, I think anyway.
People have been brainwashed for decades by the NRA and there is no changing that.  The problem has to be addressed based on the situation on the ground not some pie in the sky hope for the future...

This is where it can be difficult to reasoned argument from NRA propaganda.

Some people will hand in guns if it is against the law, and you certainly can take them off them if they don't.

The same logic was peddled in Australia, in the UK for the knife amnesty and even in Ireland for the smoking ban. People really under-estimate the average citizen's desire to live within the law and I am sure most Americans are no different, despite what the NRA says.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 04:57:04 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 16, 2016, 04:14:36 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 04:00:19 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 16, 2016, 02:49:59 PM
USA cant start with a clean slate . if there are already over 300 millions guns out there , who is gonna hand in theirs first .
Exactly!
We are passed the point of no return.  People will not hand in guns and you can't take them off them.
The option is restrictions going forward directly at the manufacturing and store level. If it can't be bought then the wrong people can't buy it, I think anyway.
People have been brainwashed for decades by the NRA and there is no changing that.  The problem has to be addressed based on the situation on the ground not some pie in the sky hope for the future...

This is where it can be difficult to reasoned argument from NRA propaganda.

Some people will hand in guns if it is against the law, and you certainly can take them off them if they don't.

The same logic was peddled in Australia, in the UK for the knife amnesty and even in Ireland for the smoking ban. People really under-estimate the average citizen's desire to live within the law and I am sure most Americans are no different, despite what the NRA says.
Most Americans are crazy.  People who live in big cities and coastal areas are remarkably different from the rest.  They won't hand in their guns and how do you take them? Honestly let's be real here how do you take someone's guns? Get in a gunfight? Kill them if they don't hand them over - that's what will really happen I believe....I know people who believe in their rights to bear arms over the government's right to take them..... then you have the people who think/fear that if they return their guns then they leave themselves vulnerable to the criminals or crazies who kept theirs.....it's a messed up situation muppet
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on June 16, 2016, 05:00:56 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 04:57:04 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 16, 2016, 04:14:36 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 04:00:19 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 16, 2016, 02:49:59 PM
USA cant start with a clean slate . if there are already over 300 millions guns out there , who is gonna hand in theirs first .
Exactly!
We are passed the point of no return.  People will not hand in guns and you can't take them off them.
The option is restrictions going forward directly at the manufacturing and store level. If it can't be bought then the wrong people can't buy it, I think anyway.
People have been brainwashed for decades by the NRA and there is no changing that.  The problem has to be addressed based on the situation on the ground not some pie in the sky hope for the future...

This is where it can be difficult to reasoned argument from NRA propaganda.

Some people will hand in guns if it is against the law, and you certainly can take them off them if they don't.

The same logic was peddled in Australia, in the UK for the knife amnesty and even in Ireland for the smoking ban. People really under-estimate the average citizen's desire to live within the law and I am sure most Americans are no different, despite what the NRA says.
Most Americans are crazy.  People who live in big cities and coastal areas are remarkably different from the rest.  They won't hand in their guns and how do you take them? Honestly let's be real here how do you take someone's guns? Get in a gunfight? Kill them if they don't hand them over - that's what will really happen I believe....I know people who believe in their rights to bear arms over the government's right to take them..... then you have the people who think/fear that if they return their guns then they leave themselves vulnerable to the criminals or crazies who kept theirs.....it's a messed up situation muppet

The first step is making them illegal or more likely, some of them illegal, such as assault rifles.

You start from there.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on June 16, 2016, 05:08:54 PM
Gun ownership has been falling for at least 30 years iirc
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 05:09:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 16, 2016, 05:00:56 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 04:57:04 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 16, 2016, 04:14:36 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 04:00:19 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 16, 2016, 02:49:59 PM
USA cant start with a clean slate . if there are already over 300 millions guns out there , who is gonna hand in theirs first .
Exactly!
We are passed the point of no return.  People will not hand in guns and you can't take them off them.
The option is restrictions going forward directly at the manufacturing and store level. If it can't be bought then the wrong people can't buy it, I think anyway.
People have been brainwashed for decades by the NRA and there is no changing that.  The problem has to be addressed based on the situation on the ground not some pie in the sky hope for the future...

This is where it can be difficult to reasoned argument from NRA propaganda.

Some people will hand in guns if it is against the law, and you certainly can take them off them if they don't.

The same logic was peddled in Australia, in the UK for the knife amnesty and even in Ireland for the smoking ban. People really under-estimate the average citizen's desire to live within the law and I am sure most Americans are no different, despite what the NRA says.
Most Americans are crazy.  People who live in big cities and coastal areas are remarkably different from the rest.  They won't hand in their guns and how do you take them? Honestly let's be real here how do you take someone's guns? Get in a gunfight? Kill them if they don't hand them over - that's what will really happen I believe....I know people who believe in their rights to bear arms over the government's right to take them..... then you have the people who think/fear that if they return their guns then they leave themselves vulnerable to the criminals or crazies who kept theirs.....it's a messed up situation muppet

The first step is making them illegal or more likely, some of them illegal, such as assault rifles.

You start from there.
I agree no more assault rifles going forward - but cut them off at the manufacturer and seller level.... tighter restrictions on ownership, tests, proof of safe storage, proof of land to hunt (like in Ireland) and perhaps courses every 3 years or 5 years? I don't know what the best solution is but it isnt armed forces removing guns from people's possession
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on June 16, 2016, 05:23:18 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 05:09:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 16, 2016, 05:00:56 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 04:57:04 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 16, 2016, 04:14:36 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 04:00:19 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on June 16, 2016, 02:49:59 PM
USA cant start with a clean slate . if there are already over 300 millions guns out there , who is gonna hand in theirs first .
Exactly!
We are passed the point of no return.  People will not hand in guns and you can't take them off them.
The option is restrictions going forward directly at the manufacturing and store level. If it can't be bought then the wrong people can't buy it, I think anyway.
People have been brainwashed for decades by the NRA and there is no changing that.  The problem has to be addressed based on the situation on the ground not some pie in the sky hope for the future...

This is where it can be difficult to reasoned argument from NRA propaganda.

Some people will hand in guns if it is against the law, and you certainly can take them off them if they don't.

The same logic was peddled in Australia, in the UK for the knife amnesty and even in Ireland for the smoking ban. People really under-estimate the average citizen's desire to live within the law and I am sure most Americans are no different, despite what the NRA says.
Most Americans are crazy.  People who live in big cities and coastal areas are remarkably different from the rest.  They won't hand in their guns and how do you take them? Honestly let's be real here how do you take someone's guns? Get in a gunfight? Kill them if they don't hand them over - that's what will really happen I believe....I know people who believe in their rights to bear arms over the government's right to take them..... then you have the people who think/fear that if they return their guns then they leave themselves vulnerable to the criminals or crazies who kept theirs.....it's a messed up situation muppet

The first step is making them illegal or more likely, some of them illegal, such as assault rifles.

You start from there.
I agree no more assault rifles going forward - but cut them off at the manufacturer and seller level.... tighter restrictions on ownership, tests, proof of safe storage, proof of land to hunt (like in Ireland) and perhaps courses every 3 years or 5 years? I don't know what the best solution is but it isnt armed forces removing guns from people's possession

The smoking ban here didn't involve any forces.
The knife amnesty in the UK didn't involve the use of force.
Australia has had a number of gun amnesties without the use of force.

There are ways to get things done that don't involve John Wayne thinking.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 06:38:48 PM
They arent the right comparisons though.  You're removing the emotion out of it. The attachment, the passion people have in this country about guns.
It would be like banning the GAA in Ireland or when it was illegal to go to Mass. The mere mention of gun control here and gun sales spike through the roof!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on June 16, 2016, 07:37:43 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 06:38:48 PM
They arent the right comparisons though.  You're removing the emotion out of it. The attachment, the passion people have in this country about guns.
It would be like banning the GAA in Ireland or when it was illegal to go to Mass. The mere mention of gun control here and gun sales spike through the roof!

It wouldn't be like banning the GAA as we don't have thousands of people being killed by the GAA every year. There is no comparison with US gun laws anywhere in the world. It kills people all the time, year after year, and yet people make up daft arguments against banning guns.

You, whether intentionally or not, are arguing point blank against gun control. This is completely illogical on so many levels so it is very difficult to keep the discussion reasonable. I could go into the hysterical equivalents I see on FaceBook such as 'drugs laws didn't work so why ban guns?' but I will try to remain reasonable. Emotion is no basis for law making. The greed of the NRA is no argument for allowing the slaughter to continue.

Start simply at the beginning. Arming everyone with assault rifles such as M16s is beyond stupid, it kills many good civilians, there is no good reason to allow it, so ban it. You might be surprised at how many decent citizens there are in the US.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: FL/MAYO on June 16, 2016, 07:44:59 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 16, 2016, 07:37:43 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 06:38:48 PM
They arent the right comparisons though.  You're removing the emotion out of it. The attachment, the passion people have in this country about guns.
It would be like banning the GAA in Ireland or when it was illegal to go to Mass. The mere mention of gun control here and gun sales spike through the roof!

It wouldn't be like banning the GAA as we don't have thousands of people being killed by the GAA every year. There is no comparison with US gun laws anywhere in the world. It kills people all the time, year after year, and yet people make up daft arguments against banning guns.

You, whether intentionally or not, are arguing point blank against gun control. This is completely illogical on so many levels so it is very difficult to keep the discussion reasonable. I could go into the hysterical equivalents I see on FaceBook such as 'drugs laws didn't work so why ban guns?' but I will try to remain reasonable. Emotion is no basis for law making. The greed of the NRA is no argument for allowing the slaughter to continue.

Start simply at the beginning. Arming everyone with assault rifles such as M16s is beyond stupid, it kills many good civilians, there is no good reason to allow it, so ban it. You might be surprised at how many decent citizens there are in the US.
[/b]

Most gun owners (NRA members among them) I know here are in favor of banning assault rifles and reasonable gun control, its the NRA and the the gun lobby that seem to have their heads stuck in the sand.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 10:05:34 PM
QuoteI agree no more assault rifles going forward - but cut them off at the manufacturer and seller level.... tighter restrictions on ownership, tests, proof of safe storage, proof of land to hunt (like in Ireland) and perhaps courses every 3 years or 5 years?

This is hardly me arguing against Gun Control.....

the reason I brought up banning the GAA is to describe the emotion attached  - not to compare the end result - I'm sure you can see the difference....

this problem won't be solved like it was in other countries.  It's part of the country's DNA whether you agree or not...

I'm certainly no advocate for Guns or the NRA.  I have a handgun for home defense and I'm trained in how to use it. I have a rifle for hunting and I'm trained in how to use it. I could have both in Ireland if I wanted with permits.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on June 17, 2016, 01:30:03 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 10:05:34 PM
QuoteI agree no more assault rifles going forward - but cut them off at the manufacturer and seller level.... tighter restrictions on ownership, tests, proof of safe storage, proof of land to hunt (like in Ireland) and perhaps courses every 3 years or 5 years?

This is hardly me arguing against Gun Control.....

the reason I brought up banning the GAA is to describe the emotion attached  - not to compare the end result - I'm sure you can see the difference....

this problem won't be solved like it was in other countries.  It's part of the country's DNA whether you agree or not...

I'm certainly no advocate for Guns or the NRA.  I have a handgun for home defense and I'm trained in how to use it. I have a rifle for hunting and I'm trained in how to use it. I could have both in Ireland if I wanted with permits.

QuoteMost Americans are crazy.  People who live in big cities and coastal areas are remarkably different from the rest.  They won't hand in their guns and how do you take them? Honestly let's be real here how do you take someone's guns? Get in a gunfight? Kill them if they don't hand them over - that's what will really happen I believe....I know people who believe in their rights to bear arms over the government's right to take them..... then you have the people who think/fear that if they return their guns then they leave themselves vulnerable to the criminals or crazies who kept theirs.....it's a messed up situation muppet

This is what I meant by you arguing against gun control. It is as if people are afraid to tackle the problem and are willing to just give up as the massacres keep on happening. This is a question of education and re-joining the rest of the civilised world. There is no option but to tackle this issue and win. What will it take for the gun-toting lunatics to get there? A massacre at their nearest school/cinema?

I am beginning to wonder if Oscar Wilde was right.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on June 17, 2016, 05:14:49 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 17, 2016, 01:30:03 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 10:05:34 PM
QuoteI agree no more assault rifles going forward - but cut them off at the manufacturer and seller level.... tighter restrictions on ownership, tests, proof of safe storage, proof of land to hunt (like in Ireland) and perhaps courses every 3 years or 5 years?

This is hardly me arguing against Gun Control.....

the reason I brought up banning the GAA is to describe the emotion attached  - not to compare the end result - I'm sure you can see the difference....

this problem won't be solved like it was in other countries.  It's part of the country's DNA whether you agree or not...

I'm certainly no advocate for Guns or the NRA.  I have a handgun for home defense and I'm trained in how to use it. I have a rifle for hunting and I'm trained in how to use it. I could have both in Ireland if I wanted with permits.

QuoteMost Americans are crazy.  People who live in big cities and coastal areas are remarkably different from the rest.  They won't hand in their guns and how do you take them? Honestly let's be real here how do you take someone's guns? Get in a gunfight? Kill them if they don't hand them over - that's what will really happen I believe....I know people who believe in their rights to bear arms over the government's right to take them..... then you have the people who think/fear that if they return their guns then they leave themselves vulnerable to the criminals or crazies who kept theirs.....it's a messed up situation muppet

This is what I meant by you arguing against gun control. It is as if people are afraid to tackle the problem and are willing to just give up as the massacres keep on happening. This is a question of education and re-joining the rest of the civilised world. There is no option but to tackle this issue and win. What will it take for the gun-toting lunatics to get there? A massacre at their nearest school/cinema?

I am beginning to wonder if Oscar Wilde was right.

But they've had the massacres as schools and cinemas multiple times. When Sandy Hook couldn't move them, nothing ever will.

In fact, they just get more entrenched. Obama is coming for their guns, and if only a good guy with a gun had been present...

Iceman is correct. including with his comparison to the GAA.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on June 17, 2016, 05:20:04 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 17, 2016, 05:14:49 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 17, 2016, 01:30:03 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 16, 2016, 10:05:34 PM
QuoteI agree no more assault rifles going forward - but cut them off at the manufacturer and seller level.... tighter restrictions on ownership, tests, proof of safe storage, proof of land to hunt (like in Ireland) and perhaps courses every 3 years or 5 years?

This is hardly me arguing against Gun Control.....

the reason I brought up banning the GAA is to describe the emotion attached  - not to compare the end result - I'm sure you can see the difference....

this problem won't be solved like it was in other countries.  It's part of the country's DNA whether you agree or not...

I'm certainly no advocate for Guns or the NRA.  I have a handgun for home defense and I'm trained in how to use it. I have a rifle for hunting and I'm trained in how to use it. I could have both in Ireland if I wanted with permits.

QuoteMost Americans are crazy.  People who live in big cities and coastal areas are remarkably different from the rest.  They won't hand in their guns and how do you take them? Honestly let's be real here how do you take someone's guns? Get in a gunfight? Kill them if they don't hand them over - that's what will really happen I believe....I know people who believe in their rights to bear arms over the government's right to take them..... then you have the people who think/fear that if they return their guns then they leave themselves vulnerable to the criminals or crazies who kept theirs.....it's a messed up situation muppet

This is what I meant by you arguing against gun control. It is as if people are afraid to tackle the problem and are willing to just give up as the massacres keep on happening. This is a question of education and re-joining the rest of the civilised world. There is no option but to tackle this issue and win. What will it take for the gun-toting lunatics to get there? A massacre at their nearest school/cinema?

I am beginning to wonder if Oscar Wilde was right.

But they've had the massacres as schools and cinemas multiple times. When Sandy Hook couldn't move them, nothing ever will.

In fact, they just get more entrenched. Obama is coming for their guns, and if only a good guy with a gun had been present...

Iceman is correct. including with his comparison to the GAA.

So give up and do nothing?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on June 17, 2016, 07:24:02 PM
no, tackle the problem based on the circumstances that exist, not the ones you presume based on other countries....
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on June 17, 2016, 07:26:21 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 17, 2016, 07:24:02 PM
no, tackle the problem based on the circumstances that exist, not the ones you presume based on other countries....

Go on.

All I am reading here is why it can't work or won't work.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on June 18, 2016, 02:35:03 AM
Well, a good start would be Hillary winning the election and getting a fifth moderate/liberal justice on the Supreme Court in place of Scalia.

Although that doesn't guarantee much in itself. The Democrats need to turn out strongly in 2020 as well to win back some states in anticipation of redistricting. Only then will they be in a position to take back the House.

And even then, they have to have the balls to make the case in the face of the NRA onslaught. It all depends on whether the Democrats feel its a fight worth having in the face of other priorities.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on June 21, 2016, 05:13:12 PM
(http://www.martingrandjean.ch/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/firearms1.png)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on June 21, 2016, 05:14:15 PM
The above will continue because of these people. Here is how much they got from the NRA:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clbo32SWAAMqV5J.jpg)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on June 21, 2016, 06:57:35 PM
According to the New York Review 2.5 m Americans fought in the bush/Obama wars and up to 20% may have PTSD.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on June 22, 2016, 06:37:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 21, 2016, 05:14:15 PM
The above will continue because of these people. Here is how much they got from the NRA:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clbo32SWAAMqV5J.jpg)

And all except one are Republican.  The bloody, bloody, treasonous b******s.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on July 07, 2016, 11:53:58 AM
Just looking at the latest two police shootings - It's beyond my comprehension.

Castile is at least the 506th person shot and killed by police so far in 2016, according to a Wash/Post database that tracks such shootings.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: FL/MAYO on July 07, 2016, 04:50:20 PM
What have the NRA to say about their " good guy with a gun" theory now. Looks like it only applies to whites, the guy shot by police last night was supposedly legally carrying his gun. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on July 07, 2016, 10:02:49 PM
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

Police murder rampage continues another unarmed 19 yr old on the ground fatally shot
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 07, 2016, 11:40:19 PM
Quote from: Declan on July 07, 2016, 10:02:49 PM
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

Police murder rampage continues another unarmed 19 yr old on the ground fatally shot

Broken tail light or something similar?

Obviously a terrorist.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on July 08, 2016, 06:10:34 AM
Crazy news tonight as snipers open fire on a Dallas protest against African American deaths by law enforcement. 4 police officers killed and half a dozen more injured. Crazy.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: tonto1888 on July 08, 2016, 07:25:12 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-36743033

was bound to happen sooner or later
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on July 08, 2016, 08:33:34 AM
Thought the lad who produced the wire summed it up well

‏@WendellPierce 
If every Black male 18-35 applied for a conceal& carry permit, and then joined NRA in one day; there would be gun control laws in a second

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: TabClear on July 08, 2016, 09:47:09 AM
Awful tragedy.

I wonder what are the NRA morons going to come out with on this one?  Their stock answer for most atrocities seems to be "if only they had guns to defend themselves it wouldn't have happened" doesn't really apply here.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on July 08, 2016, 09:58:48 AM
Saw this headline on an opinion piece this morning:
In most of America, it's impossible to tell a deadly sniper from a peaceful protestor carrying a gun
Just think about that for a second
http://qz.com/726802/in-much-of-america-its-impossible-to-tell-a-sniper-from-someone-casually-carrying-a-rifle-to-a-protest/ (http://qz.com/726802/in-much-of-america-its-impossible-to-tell-a-sniper-from-someone-casually-carrying-a-rifle-to-a-protest/)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Kickham csc on July 08, 2016, 10:06:15 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 08, 2016, 07:25:12 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-36743033

was bound to happen sooner or later

Are you saying that this shooting was acceptable???
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: TabClear on July 08, 2016, 10:20:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 07, 2016, 11:40:19 PM
Quote from: Declan on July 07, 2016, 10:02:49 PM
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

Police murder rampage continues another unarmed 19 yr old on the ground fatally shot

Broken tail light or something similar?

Obviously a terrorist.

I assume that you think the police acted with excessive force muppet?  It accept it does look like that in hindsight but the body cam footage should be reasonably conclusive. If the police genuinely thought he was reaching fir a gun what's the alternative for the cops? Wait until he shoots before drawing theirs?

Although I would say, surely a taser is the best option in a situation like this?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on July 08, 2016, 10:25:26 AM
Quote from: TabClear on July 08, 2016, 10:20:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 07, 2016, 11:40:19 PM
Quote from: Declan on July 07, 2016, 10:02:49 PM
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

Police murder rampage continues another unarmed 19 yr old on the ground fatally shot

Broken tail light or something similar?

Obviously a terrorist.

I assume that you think the police acted with excessive force muppet?  It accept it does look like that in hindsight but the body cam footage should be reasonably conclusive. If the police genuinely thought he was reaching fir a gun what's the alternative for the cops? Wait until he shoots before drawing theirs?

Although I would say, surely a taser is the best option in a situation like this?

maybe wait until you at least SEE a gun?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: longballin on July 08, 2016, 10:28:05 AM
Quote from: Kickham csc on July 08, 2016, 10:06:15 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 08, 2016, 07:25:12 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-36743033

was bound to happen sooner or later

Are you saying that this shooting was acceptable???

There was an inevitability that people would take up arms... is terrible as are the killings of black people
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 08, 2016, 10:38:47 AM
Quote from: TabClear on July 08, 2016, 10:20:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 07, 2016, 11:40:19 PM
Quote from: Declan on July 07, 2016, 10:02:49 PM
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

Police murder rampage continues another unarmed 19 yr old on the ground fatally shot

Broken tail light or something similar?

Obviously a terrorist.

I assume that you think the police acted with excessive force muppet?  It accept it does look like that in hindsight but the body cam footage should be reasonably conclusive. If the police genuinely thought he was reaching fir a gun what's the alternative for the cops? Wait until he shoots before drawing theirs?

Although I would say, surely a taser is the best option in a situation like this?

They had three guns pointed at him, so had already drawn their guns. He is on the ground, they see him clearly and he can't see them, at least not very well. He is in a poor position to draw, aim and fire a still hidden gun. The cops just have to pull the trigger.

If he pulls a gun, or even a knife, by all means shoot. But he didn't pull anything. At least from the video we have seen.

According to the cops he advanced on them. This happened before the video in the link above began, so this could be true. In which case one could understand a warning shot, or a shot to take him down being fired. So it will be interesting to see the footage from the police cameras.

The cynic in me thinks we would have already seen it, if it completely exonerated the cops. But I could be wrong.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: TabClear on July 08, 2016, 10:44:06 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 08, 2016, 10:25:26 AM
Quote from: TabClear on July 08, 2016, 10:20:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 07, 2016, 11:40:19 PM
Quote from: Declan on July 07, 2016, 10:02:49 PM
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

Police murder rampage continues another unarmed 19 yr old on the ground fatally shot

Broken tail light or something similar?

Obviously a terrorist.

I assume that you think the police acted with excessive force muppet?  It accept it does look like that in hindsight but the body cam footage should be reasonably conclusive. If the police genuinely thought he was reaching fir a gun what's the alternative for the cops? Wait until he shoots before drawing theirs?

Although I would say, surely a taser is the best option in a situation like this?

maybe wait until you at least SEE a gun?

What   if you're unsighted? These are stressful, split second situations.  You've told someone who you believe is a criminal to keep their hands where you can see them but they ignore you and are reaching into their waistband for something but you can't see what because their body is in the way. If it is a gun they could be able to get a shot off before you're 100%  certain that it is a gun.   Would you be willing to risk your life on that? 

Muppet just to address your point as well.   I'm not trying to justify what the police did in this situation.  None of us know the full detail and you're right there were 3 cops here so the unsighted argument shouldn't hold. The  body cam footage will be crucial.   Again why not use a taser?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 08, 2016, 10:48:29 AM
Quote from: TabClear on July 08, 2016, 10:44:06 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 08, 2016, 10:25:26 AM
Quote from: TabClear on July 08, 2016, 10:20:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 07, 2016, 11:40:19 PM
Quote from: Declan on July 07, 2016, 10:02:49 PM
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

Police murder rampage continues another unarmed 19 yr old on the ground fatally shot

Broken tail light or something similar?

Obviously a terrorist.

I assume that you think the police acted with excessive force muppet?  It accept it does look like that in hindsight but the body cam footage should be reasonably conclusive. If the police genuinely thought he was reaching fir a gun what's the alternative for the cops? Wait until he shoots before drawing theirs?

Although I would say, surely a taser is the best option in a situation like this?

maybe wait until you at least SEE a gun?

What   if you're unsighted? These are stressful, split second situations.  You've told someone who you believe is a criminal to keep their hands where you can see them but they ignore you and are reaching into their waistband for something but you can't see what because their body is in the way. If it is a gun they could be able to get a shot off before you're 100%  certain that it is a gun.   Would you be willing to risk your life on that?    I'm not trying to justify what the police did in this situation.  None of us know the full detail.

They weren't unsighted. They were standing 2 meters away with their guns pointed at his head, while he is on the ground on his back.

They had already shot him and he shouted that he had been shot. 99% of the population would put their hand to the shot wound, no matter what the cops were shouting. They claimed he was reaching for his waistband. We will have to wait and see what his hand was doing.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Nigel White on July 08, 2016, 11:02:57 AM
I think any country which has a brutal regime that shoots people dead for having a defective tail light on their car should be invaded by the US, that protector of human rights. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: longballin on July 08, 2016, 11:05:10 AM
There is a multitude of these shootings by cops in the most controversial circumstances... has any done time in jail yet?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 08, 2016, 11:22:32 AM
Again we don't know what happened before this video started, but the cop here is on something:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaUs9egLCO4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaUs9egLCO4)

I suspect if the girlfriend moved towards her bleeding partner, she would be shot.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GJL on July 08, 2016, 11:42:13 AM
Very easy in America to walk into a store and by a military standard AR. There should be no surprise at this type of event. Lack of gun control laws due to the NRA are completely to blame for this.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 08, 2016, 11:45:07 AM
And now five cops killed in Dallas by snipers during a BLM protest! :'(
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Walter Cronc on July 08, 2016, 12:05:16 PM
From that recording posted on facebook the cop did not appear to be in a stable position post shooting. If anything he was in hysterics!! You have to then question his ability to act responsibly under pressure! I'm sure their job isn't easy but isn't that par for the course?!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 08, 2016, 12:42:52 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on July 08, 2016, 12:05:16 PM
From that recording posted on facebook the cop did not appear to be in a stable position post shooting. If anything he was in hysterics!! You have to then question his ability to act responsibly under pressure! I'm sure their job isn't easy but isn't that par for the course?!

The US needs to consolidate police forces and standardize training and evaluation.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: longballin on July 08, 2016, 12:52:08 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 08, 2016, 12:42:52 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on July 08, 2016, 12:05:16 PM
From that recording posted on facebook the cop did not appear to be in a stable position post shooting. If anything he was in hysterics!! You have to then question his ability to act responsibly under pressure! I'm sure their job isn't easy but isn't that par for the course?!

The US needs to consolidate police forces and standardize training and evaluation.

what does that even mean? Root out racism?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 08, 2016, 01:53:15 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 08, 2016, 12:52:08 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 08, 2016, 12:42:52 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on July 08, 2016, 12:05:16 PM
From that recording posted on facebook the cop did not appear to be in a stable position post shooting. If anything he was in hysterics!! You have to then question his ability to act responsibly under pressure! I'm sure their job isn't easy but isn't that par for the course?!

The US needs to consolidate police forces and standardize training and evaluation.

what does that even mean? Root out racism?

Most towns and counties have their own police forces, with different sets of training, oversight, standards and so on. One place might have officers well trained in how to respond to a situation where they were nervous or afraid, the next one over might not.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Walter Cronc on July 08, 2016, 01:55:16 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 08, 2016, 01:53:15 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 08, 2016, 12:52:08 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 08, 2016, 12:42:52 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on July 08, 2016, 12:05:16 PM
From that recording posted on facebook the cop did not appear to be in a stable position post shooting. If anything he was in hysterics!! You have to then question his ability to act responsibly under pressure! I'm sure their job isn't easy but isn't that par for the course?!

The US needs to consolidate police forces and standardize training and evaluation.

what does that even mean? Root out racism?

Most towns and counties have their own police forces, with different sets of training, oversight, standards and so on. One place might have officers well trained in how to respond to a situation where they were nervous or afraid, the next one over might not.

Would that not be very hard to do though J70? I suppose a standard framework could be set in place and each state/county works off that!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 08, 2016, 02:00:43 PM
Ironically (in a bitter way), according to an NPR report I heard this morning, the Dallas police are among the more progressive in trying to address these issues and have seen complaints drop dramatically since they began working on it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Walter Cronc on July 08, 2016, 02:40:55 PM
Is it wrong to assume the likes of Dallas, Seattle, Portland, San Fran, Denver, Charlotte etc would have more progressive policing?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on July 08, 2016, 02:41:41 PM
Any media referring to this as terrorism yet? Not the right shade of brown?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 08, 2016, 03:15:44 PM
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11224579_10200726482201886_6520955550650639910_n.jpg?oh=4074024e7184af34c211b97f3e918492&oe=57FA9550)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on July 08, 2016, 03:23:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 08, 2016, 02:41:41 PM
Any media referring to this as terrorism yet? Not the right shade of brown?
I believe it should be called terrorism.  Planned sniper shootings on police and a suspected bomb... surely that's terrorism.
I won't be so naive to say there is no racism in America in general and among some cops.  I will say though that protestors and a lot of black people don't do anything to help their cause.  Things are so far removed from what Dr King started I'm sure he is shaking his head at all of this.  It has become a viscous circle.  Cops are afraid and over reacting to simple situations that could be solved without bullets.  Black people are afraid and angry and violent which makes cops even more on edge....
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 08, 2016, 03:30:12 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 08, 2016, 03:23:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 08, 2016, 02:41:41 PM
Any media referring to this as terrorism yet? Not the right shade of brown?
I believe it should be called terrorism.  Planned sniper shootings on police and a suspected bomb... surely that's terrorism.
I won't be so naive to say there is no racism in America in general and among some cops.  I will say though that protestors and a lot of black people don't do anything to help their cause.  Things are so far removed from what Dr King started I'm sure he is shaking his head at all of this.  It has become a viscous circle.  Cops are afraid and over reacting to simple situations that could be solved without bullets.  Black people are afraid and angry and violent which makes cops even more on edge....

The link in the popular imagination between civil disorder and urban poverty was perhaps best expressed in the report of the Kerner Commission, which was appointed by president Lyndon Johnson after rioting during the summer of 1967 in such cities as Detroit and Newark, New Jersey, left scores dead. Its conclusion was: "Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white — separate and unequal." But implicit in its analysis was the notion that the root causes of the violence were to be found in the deprivation of the urban slum. "Segregation and poverty have created in the racial ghetto a destructive environment totally unknown to most white Americans," the report said. "What white Americans have never fully understood but what the Negro can never forget — is that white society is deeply implicated in the ghetto. White institutions created it, white institutions maintain it, and white society condones it."

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: StGallsGAA on July 08, 2016, 03:33:22 PM
The chickens had to come home to roost at some point.  I see the Black Power movement is now drilling openly with legally held automatic weapons, stating they reserve the right to open fire on any police officer who draws their weapon on a a non-threatening situation.  Every member has taken an oath Ro shoot first in such scenarios.  Should even the playing field a little!  8)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 08, 2016, 03:35:27 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 08, 2016, 03:23:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 08, 2016, 02:41:41 PM
Any media referring to this as terrorism yet? Not the right shade of brown?
I believe it should be called terrorism.  Planned sniper shootings on police and a suspected bomb... surely that's terrorism.
I won't be so naive to say there is no racism in America in general and among some cops.  I will say though that protestors and a lot of black people don't do anything to help their cause.  Things are so far removed from what Dr King started I'm sure he is shaking his head at all of this.  It has become a viscous circle.  Cops are afraid and over reacting to simple situations that could be solved without bullets.  Black people are afraid and angry and violent which makes cops even more on edge....

...I agree it is terrorism. The terrorists are being radicalised by the worst of the otherwise good police forces, and they are being armed by the NRA, who are facilitated by all those politicians who take NRA donations.

John McCain alone has received $7.7m from the NRA (http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/06/16/3789634/nra-favorite-john-mccain-blames-obama-for-orlando-shooting/) and of course he blames Obama.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Kickham csc on July 08, 2016, 04:16:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 08, 2016, 03:30:12 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 08, 2016, 03:23:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 08, 2016, 02:41:41 PM
Any media referring to this as terrorism yet? Not the right shade of brown?
I believe it should be called terrorism.  Planned sniper shootings on police and a suspected bomb... surely that's terrorism.
I won't be so naive to say there is no racism in America in general and among some cops.  I will say though that protestors and a lot of black people don't do anything to help their cause.  Things are so far removed from what Dr King started I'm sure he is shaking his head at all of this.  It has become a viscous circle.  Cops are afraid and over reacting to simple situations that could be solved without bullets.  Black people are afraid and angry and violent which makes cops even more on edge....

The link in the popular imagination between civil disorder and urban poverty was perhaps best expressed in the report of the Kerner Commission, which was appointed by president Lyndon Johnson after rioting during the summer of 1967 in such cities as Detroit and Newark, New Jersey, left scores dead. Its conclusion was: "Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white — separate and unequal." But implicit in its analysis was the notion that the root causes of the violence were to be found in the deprivation of the urban slum. "Segregation and poverty have created in the racial ghetto a destructive environment totally unknown to most white Americans," the report said. "What white Americans have never fully understood but what the Negro can never forget — is that white society is deeply implicated in the ghetto. White institutions created it, white institutions maintain it, and white society condones it."

I have relatives who are cops in NYC, and they would totally agree with the reference to racial ghetto and destructive environment.

They are frustrated about a couple of things
1) - The system has created ghettos where the education system is broken, employment system is broken, family structures are broken, and poverty is rife
2) Politicians preach a lot, but never implement initiatives to help fix the situation (for example, NYC mayor has the backing of the teacher's union, who are happy with the status quo with the failed school system)
3) the police are  holding the society together by maintaining law and order
4) the police are the identified as the visual reminder of the establishment, and in-turn take a lot of sh1T
5) the Politicians point to fixing police problems to appease the crowd as its a vote getter
6) but do nothing to fix the ghetto issues (GUNS GUNS GUNS, Education, Jobs, etc)

This leaves a disgruntled mass (with easy access to weapons) going toe to toe with a pressurized police force

And the mass population shack their heads in judgment when the police make mistakes and the disgruntled mass reacts.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 08, 2016, 04:19:47 PM
Quote from: StGallsGAA on July 08, 2016, 03:33:22 PM
The chickens had to come home to roost at some point.  I see the Black Power movement is now drilling openly with legally held automatic weapons, stating they reserve the right to open fire on any police officer who draws their weapon on a a non-threatening situation.  Every member has taken an oath Ro shoot first in such scenarios.  Should even the playing field a little!  8)

I don't share your glee, but they're going the same route as the so-called patriot/militia groups such as the idiots from the Bundy ranch and the Oregon wildlife refuge occupation with their aggressive, in your face, open carry bullshit.

However, nothing excuses the cold- blooded execution of cops that happened last night. And these idiots picked the wrong state to do it as well. They'll get the death penalty for sure.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: longballin on July 08, 2016, 04:29:18 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 08, 2016, 04:19:47 PM
Quote from: StGallsGAA on July 08, 2016, 03:33:22 PM
The chickens had to come home to roost at some point.  I see the Black Power movement is now drilling openly with legally held automatic weapons, stating they reserve the right to open fire on any police officer who draws their weapon on a a non-threatening situation.  Every member has taken an oath Ro shoot first in such scenarios.  Should even the playing field a little!  8)

I don't share your glee, but they're going the same route as the so-called patriot/militia groups such as the idiots from the Bundy ranch and the Oregon wildlife refuge occupation with their aggressive, in your face, open carry bullshit.

However, nothing excuses the cold- blooded execution of cops that happened last night. And these idiots picked the wrong state to do it as well. They'll get the death penalty for sure.

unlike those cops who dispense the death penalty to black people on the streets with impunity
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 08, 2016, 04:32:34 PM
Quote from: Kickham csc on July 08, 2016, 04:16:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 08, 2016, 03:30:12 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 08, 2016, 03:23:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 08, 2016, 02:41:41 PM
Any media referring to this as terrorism yet? Not the right shade of brown?
I believe it should be called terrorism.  Planned sniper shootings on police and a suspected bomb... surely that's terrorism.
I won't be so naive to say there is no racism in America in general and among some cops.  I will say though that protestors and a lot of black people don't do anything to help their cause.  Things are so far removed from what Dr King started I'm sure he is shaking his head at all of this.  It has become a viscous circle.  Cops are afraid and over reacting to simple situations that could be solved without bullets.  Black people are afraid and angry and violent which makes cops even more on edge....

The link in the popular imagination between civil disorder and urban poverty was perhaps best expressed in the report of the Kerner Commission, which was appointed by president Lyndon Johnson after rioting during the summer of 1967 in such cities as Detroit and Newark, New Jersey, left scores dead. Its conclusion was: "Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white — separate and unequal." But implicit in its analysis was the notion that the root causes of the violence were to be found in the deprivation of the urban slum. "Segregation and poverty have created in the racial ghetto a destructive environment totally unknown to most white Americans," the report said. "What white Americans have never fully understood but what the Negro can never forget — is that white society is deeply implicated in the ghetto. White institutions created it, white institutions maintain it, and white society condones it."

I have relatives who are cops in NYC, and they would totally agree with the reference to racial ghetto and destructive environment.

They are frustrated about a couple of things
1) - The system has created ghettos where the education system is broken, employment system is broken, family structures are broken, and poverty is rife
2) Politicians preach a lot, but never implement initiatives to help fix the situation (for example, NYC mayor has the backing of the teacher's union, who are happy with the status quo with the failed school system)
3) the police are  holding the society together by maintaining law and order
4) the police are the identified as the visual reminder of the establishment, and in-turn take a lot of sh1T
5) the Politicians point to fixing police problems to appease the crowd as its a vote getter
6) but do nothing to fix the ghetto issues (GUNS GUNS GUNS, Education, Jobs, etc)

This leaves a disgruntled mass (with easy access to weapons) going toe to toe with a pressurized police force

And the mass population shack their heads in judgment when the police make mistakes and the disgruntled mass reacts.
It is a system issue and not  at root the fault of the police.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Beffs on July 08, 2016, 04:39:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 08, 2016, 04:32:34 PM
It is a system issue and not  at root the fault of the police.

Yeah, but the "system" is not some organically created entity. It was created by institutionalised racism that kept an entire race of people down at heel, for generations. The police force are the face of that system, upholding all it stands for....along with the politicians, the judiciary & the legal system. As the power wielders in all of those organizations are primarily white, there is always going to be a problem, between those that wield the power & those that are the victims of it.

Add in all the white authority figures at the top of most of the food chains, who refuse to even acknowledge that there is a problem with every single aspect of how their society is structured, from the top down & the problems become even harder to solve.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 08, 2016, 04:48:13 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 08, 2016, 04:29:18 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 08, 2016, 04:19:47 PM
Quote from: StGallsGAA on July 08, 2016, 03:33:22 PM
The chickens had to come home to roost at some point.  I see the Black Power movement is now drilling openly with legally held automatic weapons, stating they reserve the right to open fire on any police officer who draws their weapon on a a non-threatening situation.  Every member has taken an oath Ro shoot first in such scenarios.  Should even the playing field a little!  8)

I don't share your glee, but they're going the same route as the so-called patriot/militia groups such as the idiots from the Bundy ranch and the Oregon wildlife refuge occupation with their aggressive, in your face, open carry bullshit.

However, nothing excuses the cold- blooded execution of cops that happened last night. And these idiots picked the wrong state to do it as well. They'll get the death penalty for sure.

unlike those cops who dispense the death penalty to black people on the streets with impunity

Well, the issue is intent on the part of people charged with protecting society. Can you really say the scared out of his wits cop in the St. Paul video from the other night was a bad guy or just a poorly trained cop in over his head who panicked?

On the other hand, these boys last night, for no reason except some deluded notion of revenge (presumably), took it upon themselves to murder randomly and distantly selected cops.

Their act would be equivalent to some cop walking up behind a random black dude and shooting him in the head.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 08, 2016, 04:51:36 PM
Much of US society is afraid of and suspicious of black men. They don't get the benefit of the doubt. Cops are simply a reflection of the society from which they come.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Keyboard Warrior on July 08, 2016, 04:54:06 PM
Quote from: Kickham csc on July 08, 2016, 04:16:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 08, 2016, 03:30:12 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 08, 2016, 03:23:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 08, 2016, 02:41:41 PM
Any media referring to this as terrorism yet? Not the right shade of brown?
I believe it should be called terrorism.  Planned sniper shootings on police and a suspected bomb... surely that's terrorism.
I won't be so naive to say there is no racism in America in general and among some cops.  I will say though that protestors and a lot of black people don't do anything to help their cause.  Things are so far removed from what Dr King started I'm sure he is shaking his head at all of this.  It has become a viscous circle.  Cops are afraid and over reacting to simple situations that could be solved without bullets.  Black people are afraid and angry and violent which makes cops even more on edge....

The link in the popular imagination between civil disorder and urban poverty was perhaps best expressed in the report of the Kerner Commission, which was appointed by president Lyndon Johnson after rioting during the summer of 1967 in such cities as Detroit and Newark, New Jersey, left scores dead. Its conclusion was: "Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white — separate and unequal." But implicit in its analysis was the notion that the root causes of the violence were to be found in the deprivation of the urban slum. "Segregation and poverty have created in the racial ghetto a destructive environment totally unknown to most white Americans," the report said. "What white Americans have never fully understood but what the Negro can never forget — is that white society is deeply implicated in the ghetto. White institutions created it, white institutions maintain it, and white society condones it."

I have relatives who are cops in NYC, and they would totally agree with the reference to racial ghetto and destructive environment.

They are frustrated about a couple of things
1) - The system has created ghettos where the education system is broken, employment system is broken, family structures are broken, and poverty is rife
2) Politicians preach a lot, but never implement initiatives to help fix the situation (for example, NYC mayor has the backing of the teacher's union, who are happy with the status quo with the failed school system)
3) the police are  holding the society together by maintaining law and order
4) the police are the identified as the visual reminder of the establishment, and in-turn take a lot of sh1T
5) the Politicians point to fixing police problems to appease the crowd as its a vote getter
6) but do nothing to fix the ghetto issues (GUNS GUNS GUNS, Education, Jobs, etc)

This leaves a disgruntled mass (with easy access to weapons) going toe to toe with a pressurized police force

And the mass population shack their heads in judgment when the police make mistakes and the disgruntled mass reacts.

Those mistakes tending to be the shooting dead of, predominantly, young black men. Very coincidental mistakes indeed.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 08, 2016, 05:05:52 PM
I am sure people don't mean it, but there is lots of sympathy here for the cop pulling the trigger, and apparently not that much for the dead men. Why is that so?

There is correctly huge sympathy for the murdered police.

Asking someone to pull out an ID and then shooting him for moving his hand to somewhere you think there might be a gun, is just crazy. The cop thinks the victim is going for a gun, the victim thinks he is getting the ID the cop with the gun told him to get. This bizarre and repetitive breakdown in communication, is causing needless innocent victims and apparently there no one in the US able to crawl out from under the NRA stone to scream 'STOP!'.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 08, 2016, 05:09:32 PM
But surely a properly trained cop who can handle the job is the answer, not a deer in the headlights who is so afraid and uncomposed that he shoots an innocent man for doing exactly what he told him to do?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 08, 2016, 05:14:00 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 08, 2016, 05:09:32 PM
But surely a properly trained cop who can handle the job is the answer, not a deer in the headlights who is so afraid and uncomposed that he shoots an innocent man for doing exactly what he told him to do?

I would be inclined to agree, but I haven't been in that situation.

The 12 year old in Cleveland was particularly shocking in that regard. But they subsequently found that the particular officer had some critical reports on his file. Watching the cop that shot the man in the car, I would reckon that cop's file will have some interesting stuff on it. Part of the problem though is the circling of the wagons that will occur.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trileacman on July 08, 2016, 06:24:15 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 08, 2016, 05:05:52 PM
I am sure people don't mean it, but there is lots of sympathy here for the cop pulling the trigger, and apparently not that much for the dead men. Why is that so?

That's a gross mischaracterisation of the opinions here Muppet. Barring one or two of the usual gun-nuts we all have more sympathy for the guys that are dead than the police. To accuse us of otherwise as you did is bullshit.

We have empathy for the police position in some of these cases because they're obviously not intentionally murdering black lads but it's ingrained in their psyche that all black poor people are dangerous criminals ready to shoot you. That and the fact they seem to be f**king idiots. Also Murica is filled with a load gun nuts and that's the real problem. The police are shitting themselves that some black man is gonna pull a gun and shoot them because there's a fair f**king chance that a black lad is gonna pull a gun and shoot them. Dole out guns to a crowd of knuckle draggers (police and black criminals) and it's inevitable that a lot of innocent people will get caught in the crossfire.

I don't blame either side in this really it's the gun culture that's really to blame. The fact that it persists after all these atrocities, is testament to how poor a nation America is and how stupid it's inhabitants are.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 08, 2016, 06:27:20 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 08, 2016, 04:51:36 PM
Much of US society is afraid of and suspicious of black men. They don't get the benefit of the doubt. Cops are simply a reflection of the society from which they come.
That fear goes back to slavery.  Relations between police and black people in poor areas are not good. There are 5m prisoners and the black proportion is off the scale. Throw in the facts that the US is trigger happy and has a failing economy.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 08, 2016, 07:21:31 PM
Quote from: trileacman on July 08, 2016, 06:24:15 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 08, 2016, 05:05:52 PM
I am sure people don't mean it, but there is lots of sympathy here for the cop pulling the trigger, and apparently not that much for the dead men. Why is that so?

That's a gross mischaracterisation of the opinions here Muppet. Barring one or two of the usual gun-nuts we all have more sympathy for the guys that are dead than the police. To accuse us of otherwise as you did is bullshit.

We have empathy for the police position in some of these cases because they're obviously not intentionally murdering black lads but it's ingrained in their psyche that all black poor people are dangerous criminals ready to shoot you. That and the fact they seem to be f**king idiots. Also Murica is filled with a load gun nuts and that's the real problem. The police are shitting themselves that some black man is gonna pull a gun and shoot them because there's a fair f**king chance that a black lad is gonna pull a gun and shoot them. Dole out guns to a crowd of knuckle draggers (police and black criminals) and it's inevitable that a lot of innocent people will get caught in the crossfire.

I don't blame either side in this really it's the gun culture that's really to blame. The fact that it persists after all these atrocities, is testament to how poor a nation America is and how stupid it's inhabitants are.

Oh grow up ffs.

2 pages ago I posted a video made by the girlfriend of Philando Castile, who can be seen bleeding to death. There hasn't been a single comment regarding the victim, his girlfriend or the 4 year old girl who was in the back seat at the time of the shooting. That is all I am saying. I am not 'accusing' anyone of anything.

As I said, most people don't mean it but most of the debate in the last couple of pages (the recent shootings) is about what is going on in the heads of the cops.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 08, 2016, 08:04:37 PM
Tweet from a former Republican Congressman.

Says it all really.

(http://www.stlucianewsonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/ct-joe-walsh-tweet-20160708-300x169.png)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 08, 2016, 08:26:29 PM
I would tend to have a lot of sympathy for the cops in these instances but those 2 looked incompetent and the victim paid the price for it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 08, 2016, 08:40:48 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on July 08, 2016, 08:26:29 PM
I would tend to have a lot of sympathy for the cops in these instances but those 2 looked incompetent and the victim paid the price for it.

I would always try to get into the heads of everyone including the cops.

But after they shot Castile, they took his girlfriend away in handcuffs. What exactly was she supposed to have done?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on July 08, 2016, 08:56:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 08, 2016, 08:40:48 PM
But after they shot Castile, they took his girlfriend away in handcuffs. What exactly was she supposed to have done?

Accessory to a black person.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 08, 2016, 09:16:59 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 08, 2016, 08:04:37 PM
Tweet from a former Republican Congressman.

Says it all really.

(http://www.stlucianewsonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/ct-joe-walsh-tweet-20160708-300x169.png)

Par for the course for that half-wit.

So who's he declaring war on?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnneycool on July 08, 2016, 10:39:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 08, 2016, 08:40:48 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on July 08, 2016, 08:26:29 PM
I would tend to have a lot of sympathy for the cops in these instances but those 2 looked incompetent and the victim paid the price for it.

I would always try to get into the heads of everyone including the cops.

But after they shot Castile, they took his girlfriend away in handcuffs. What exactly was she supposed to have done?


That Castile footage is just unreal and really hard to fathom.
Cop pulls a family over for having a fault tail light and automatically approach's the car with his gun drawn.

In what sort of civilized society is that considered normal?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Asal Mor on July 08, 2016, 11:17:54 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 08, 2016, 10:39:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 08, 2016, 08:40:48 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on July 08, 2016, 08:26:29 PM
I would tend to have a lot of sympathy for the cops in these instances but those 2 looked incompetent and the victim paid the price for it.

I would always try to get into the heads of everyone including the cops.

But after they shot Castile, they took his girlfriend away in handcuffs. What exactly was she supposed to have done?


That Castile footage is just unreal and really hard to fathom.
Cop pulls a family over for having a fault tail light and automatically approach's the car with his gun drawn.

In what sort of civilized society is that considered normal?
A totally insane one (though it can be really annoying when you see a car driving around with a broken light).
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: foxcommander on July 09, 2016, 02:26:25 AM
BLM marches/rallies will have to be outlawed if they are going to be means of targeting police.
Otherwise this could really get out of hand.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 09, 2016, 05:45:33 AM
https://theintercept.com/2016/07/08/how-the-dallas-police-used-an-improvised-killer-robot-to-take-down-the-sniper/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Muck Savage on July 09, 2016, 06:22:29 AM
This is getting out of hand.

I felt very sorry for the Black family in the car to see a man being shot by the Officer. I do not believe that the Police man got out of bed that morning and said 'I'm going to to shoot a black man today'. There is already a lot of tension out there so when he pulled the car over, the guy said 'Gun' and the already nervous cop pull the gun and shot. I don't think the man was killed by a racist I think he was shot by a badly trained, stressed cop.
There are a lot of groups out there like Black lives Matter that are fulling this tension and not helping the situation. Leaders going out telling people that cops need to get a taste of their own medicine, Damn white america etc. This is only increasing racial tension and I believe the so called Dallas terrorist is a product of these hate groups. Groups like this need to be shut down. I'm looking at all these so called protests, protesting face to face with cops, shouting derogatory terms at the police and filing that tension. it's snowballing!

This needs leadership to fix this, I don't see Obama doing it and I certainly don't see either of the two candidates doing it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 09, 2016, 07:23:23 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 08, 2016, 03:35:27 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 08, 2016, 03:23:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 08, 2016, 02:41:41 PM
Any media referring to this as terrorism yet? Not the right shade of brown?
I believe it should be called terrorism.  Planned sniper shootings on police and a suspected bomb... surely that's terrorism.
I won't be so naive to say there is no racism in America in general and among some cops.  I will say though that protestors and a lot of black people don't do anything to help their cause.  Things are so far removed from what Dr King started I'm sure he is shaking his head at all of this.  It has become a viscous circle.  Cops are afraid and over reacting to simple situations that could be solved without bullets.  Black people are afraid and angry and violent which makes cops even more on edge....

...I agree it is terrorism. The terrorists are being radicalised by the worst of the otherwise good police forces, and they are being armed by the NRA, who are facilitated by all those politicians who take NRA donations.

John McCain alone has received $7.7m from the NRA (http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/06/16/3789634/nra-favorite-john-mccain-blames-obama-for-orlando-shooting/) and of course he blames Obama.
I don't buy the notion that terrorism is beyond the pale. People can only take so much crap. Israelis and  Fox use the word to mesmerise people and justify repression.

You end up with bollocks like Mr Potato head

Ambassador Bolton: There is no moral equivalency to, on the one hand, deliberate attacking of civilians, taking lives, taking hostages, versus the inadvertent and highly unfortunate civilian deaths that occur when a country exercises its right to self-defense. Those are not the same act, they are not motivated for the same reasons, they do not carry the same moral weight.

  I think it was Brendan Behan who said the terrorists are the ones with the small guns.
US power is violent and vindictive. Ask Leonard Peltier or Chelsea Manning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWUsSawPeVg
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: general_lee on July 09, 2016, 07:59:29 AM
No sympathy from me for the cops. America in my eyes is as nuts as north Korea or Saudi Arabia. Watched the videos of both shootings. Completely unjustified and people on here "empathising" with the police officers is f**king laughable. Could you imagine an RUC man in Crumlin road jail shooting dead a young nationalist 30 years ago "sorry your honour, promise I don't hate Catholics I was just scared he might be a gunman". I doubt anyone on here would be saying he must have been poorly trained and stressed. f**k me like!  ::)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 09, 2016, 11:46:42 AM
Quote from: Muck Savage on July 09, 2016, 06:22:29 AM
This is getting out of hand.

I felt very sorry for the Black family in the car to see a man being shot by the Officer. I do not believe that the Police man got out of bed that morning and said 'I'm going to to shoot a black man today'. There is already a lot of tension out there so when he pulled the car over, the guy said 'Gun' and the already nervous cop pull the gun and shot. I don't think the man was killed by a racist I think he was shot by a badly trained, stressed cop.
There are a lot of groups out there like Black lives Matter that are fulling this tension and not helping the situation. Leaders going out telling people that cops need to get a taste of their own medicine, Damn white america etc. This is only increasing racial tension and I believe the so called Dallas terrorist is a product of these hate groups. Groups like this need to be shut down. I'm looking at all these so called protests, protesting face to face with cops, shouting derogatory terms at the police and filing that tension. it's snowballing!

This needs leadership to fix this, I don't see Obama doing it and I certainly don't see either of the two candidates doing it.

If the cop was in the RUC and the dead man was a Catholic, how would you feel about Catholic groups voicing their responses? What response would you expect? Would there be protests? Should those groups and protests be shut down? Would it be fair to accuse them of fuelling racial tension?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 09, 2016, 12:18:15 PM
Quote from: Muck Savage on July 09, 2016, 06:22:29 AM
This is getting out of hand.

I felt very sorry for the Black family in the car to see a man being shot by the Officer. I do not believe that the Police man got out of bed that morning and said 'I'm going to to shoot a black man today'. There is already a lot of tension out there so when he pulled the car over, the guy said 'Gun' and the already nervous cop pull the gun and shot. I don't think the man was killed by a racist I think he was shot by a badly trained, stressed cop.
There are a lot of groups out there like Black lives Matter that are fulling this tension and not helping the situation. Leaders going out telling people that cops need to get a taste of their own medicine, Damn white america etc. This is only increasing racial tension and I believe the so called Dallas terrorist is a product of these hate groups. Groups like this need to be shut down. I'm looking at all these so called protests, protesting face to face with cops, shouting derogatory terms at the police and filing that tension. it's snowballing!

This needs leadership to fix this, I don't see Obama doing it and I certainly don't see either of the two candidates doing it.

So what do you propose?

That black people just keep their heads down and accept their lot in life. Accept that they're treated disproportionately harshly by the justice system, both police and courts, for the same crimes as whites? Accept that police are more likely to kill them just because the cop is prejudiced or afraid?

Should the anti-abortion movement be shut down because once in a while some nut goes too far and bombs a clinic or shoots a doctor dead?

These problems existed LONG before BLM. Its just that they are now getting an airing and some pushback due to mobile phone videos.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: longballin on July 09, 2016, 02:38:53 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 09, 2016, 11:46:42 AM
Quote from: Muck Savage on July 09, 2016, 06:22:29 AM
This is getting out of hand.

I felt very sorry for the Black family in the car to see a man being shot by the Officer. I do not believe that the Police man got out of bed that morning and said 'I'm going to to shoot a black man today'. There is already a lot of tension out there so when he pulled the car over, the guy said 'Gun' and the already nervous cop pull the gun and shot. I don't think the man was killed by a racist I think he was shot by a badly trained, stressed cop.
There are a lot of groups out there like Black lives Matter that are fulling this tension and not helping the situation. Leaders going out telling people that cops need to get a taste of their own medicine, Damn white america etc. This is only increasing racial tension and I believe the so called Dallas terrorist is a product of these hate groups. Groups like this need to be shut down. I'm looking at all these so called protests, protesting face to face with cops, shouting derogatory terms at the police and filing that tension. it's snowballing!

This needs leadership to fix this, I don't see Obama doing it and I certainly don't see either of the two candidates doing it.

If the cop was in the RUC and the dead man was a Catholic, how would you feel about Catholic groups voicing their responses? What response would you expect? Would there be protests? Should those groups and protests be shut down? Would it be fair to accuse them of fuelling racial tension?

I thought the same... there will inevitably be black people will take up arms against the cops if nothing done to stop their people being shot with impunity. RUC - state forces here a good example...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Muck Savage on July 09, 2016, 06:43:59 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 09, 2016, 12:18:15 PM


So what do you propose?

That black people just keep their heads down and accept their lot in life. Accept that they're treated disproportionately harshly by the justice system, both police and courts, for the same crimes as whites? Accept that police are more likely to kill them just because the cop is prejudiced or afraid?

Should the anti-abortion movement be shut down because once in a while some nut goes too far and bombs a clinic or shoots a doctor dead?

These problems existed LONG before BLM. Its just that they are now getting an airing and some pushback due to mobile phone videos.

I don't believe that these hate group are the right way to go. Certainly going on a roof-top and shooting a Cops is not the right way. This was not a terrorist as has been mentioned before, this was racially motivated by a racist. Just as some of the cop shootings have been racially motivated.

It needs strong leadership.
Jobs - We need more jobs in areas that are predominantly Black. Black unemployment rates have gone up in the last few years. More Black families are on benefits, food stamps etc.

Schools - The school structure needs to be fixed. It is set up that the rich areas continue to get the better teachers, facilities etc. More money needs to be put into this in Black areas. Education is very important

Police relationships - Needs to be addressed. Police need to be given X% of time each week to work on community projects each week in Black areas, with or without uniforms. This time should be on the clock, not their own free time.

In the last 24 hours, there have been 4 ambush's on Police across the country. As sure as night and day another innocent Black man will be shot.

Until something along these lines change Racists will shoot innocent people on both sides.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 09, 2016, 08:58:53 PM
Quote from: Muck Savage on July 09, 2016, 06:43:59 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 09, 2016, 12:18:15 PM


So what do you propose?

That black people just keep their heads down and accept their lot in life. Accept that they're treated disproportionately harshly by the justice system, both police and courts, for the same crimes as whites? Accept that police are more likely to kill them just because the cop is prejudiced or afraid?

Should the anti-abortion movement be shut down because once in a while some nut goes too far and bombs a clinic or shoots a doctor dead?

These problems existed LONG before BLM. Its just that they are now getting an airing and some pushback due to mobile phone videos.

I don't believe that these hate group are the right way to go. Certainly going on a roof-top and shooting a Cops is not the right way. This was not a terrorist as has been mentioned before, this was racially motivated by a racist. Just as some of the cop shootings have been racially motivated.

It needs strong leadership.
Jobs - We need more jobs in areas that are predominantly Black. Black unemployment rates have gone up in the last few years. More Black families are on benefits, food stamps etc.

Schools - The school structure needs to be fixed. It is set up that the rich areas continue to get the better teachers, facilities etc. More money needs to be put into this in Black areas. Education is very important

Police relationships - Needs to be addressed. Police need to be given X% of time each week to work on community projects each week in Black areas, with or without uniforms. This time should be on the clock, not their own free time.

In the last 24 hours, there have been 4 ambush's on Police across the country. As sure as night and day another innocent Black man will be shot.

Until something along these lines change Racists will shoot innocent people on both sides.

But the shooter in Dallas was not associated with BLM, which is not an organized, centralized group anyway, more a loose collection of groups under one umbrella, some good, some not so good. Kind of like the Tea Party movement in organization.

I hear you on the other stuff, but will it ever happen? In many areas, school funding is tied in with property taxes, which basically causes a positive (or negative) feedback loop, in that the schools in the rich areas are well funded while those in poor areas are not. School quality is in turn an influence on property values, and so round and round it goes. People are very reluctant to give that up. Even in NYC you see it's influence, with many teachers opting to take advantage of accelerated certification programmes, before fleeing for the suburbs once they've done their due time, meaning that poor schools are often stuck with inexperienced and less able teachers. And even in liberal, progressive NYC, you see occasional push-back from parents in good public schools when efforts are made to include the housing projects down the block in the catchment for their school. Not really because their child will sit side by side with poor black or hispanic kids, but because their child might be passed over and not get a coveted place in the school at all.

With the police, it will take years, with the already poisonous relationships in some areas, and the "snitches end up in ditches" fear. How do you break through all that? How do you address what Cornell West calls the "niggerization" of black people, where their history of being downtrodden, rejected, unsafe, poorly treated by government and society, becomes a trap from which they cannot escape, and which is further beaten into them every time a man is stopped, for no reason other than racial profiling, by the police, and where they, through no fault of their own, appear threatening to people of other races and even their own. This goes for middle and upper class black experience too. And then the crime rates in the poor neighbourhoods, typical of socially deprived areas, which necessitate the increased presence of police, which leads to racial profiling, and on and on it goes.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: foxcommander on July 10, 2016, 02:27:15 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 09, 2016, 08:58:53 PM
Quote from: Muck Savage on July 09, 2016, 06:43:59 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 09, 2016, 12:18:15 PM


So what do you propose?

That black people just keep their heads down and accept their lot in life. Accept that they're treated disproportionately harshly by the justice system, both police and courts, for the same crimes as whites? Accept that police are more likely to kill them just because the cop is prejudiced or afraid?

Should the anti-abortion movement be shut down because once in a while some nut goes too far and bombs a clinic or shoots a doctor dead?

These problems existed LONG before BLM. Its just that they are now getting an airing and some pushback due to mobile phone videos.

I don't believe that these hate group are the right way to go. Certainly going on a roof-top and shooting a Cops is not the right way. This was not a terrorist as has been mentioned before, this was racially motivated by a racist. Just as some of the cop shootings have been racially motivated.

It needs strong leadership.
Jobs - We need more jobs in areas that are predominantly Black. Black unemployment rates have gone up in the last few years. More Black families are on benefits, food stamps etc.

Schools - The school structure needs to be fixed. It is set up that the rich areas continue to get the better teachers, facilities etc. More money needs to be put into this in Black areas. Education is very important

Police relationships - Needs to be addressed. Police need to be given X% of time each week to work on community projects each week in Black areas, with or without uniforms. This time should be on the clock, not their own free time.

In the last 24 hours, there have been 4 ambush's on Police across the country. As sure as night and day another innocent Black man will be shot.

Until something along these lines change Racists will shoot innocent people on both sides.

But the shooter in Dallas was not associated with BLM, which is not an organized, centralized group anyway, more a loose collection of groups under one umbrella, some good, some not so good. Kind of like the Tea Party movement in organization.

I hear you on the other stuff, but will it ever happen? In many areas, school funding is tied in with property taxes, which basically causes a positive (or negative) feedback loop, in that the schools in the rich areas are well funded while those in poor areas are not. School quality is in turn an influence on property values, and so round and round it goes. People are very reluctant to give that up. Even in NYC you see it's influence, with many teachers opting to take advantage of accelerated certification programmes, before fleeing for the suburbs once they've done their due time, meaning that poor schools are often stuck with inexperienced and less able teachers. And even in liberal, progressive NYC, you see occasional push-back from parents in good public schools when efforts are made to include the housing projects down the block in the catchment for their school. Not really because their child will sit side by side with poor black or hispanic kids, but because their child might be passed over and not get a coveted place in the school at all.

With the police, it will take years, with the already poisonous relationships in some areas, and the "snitches end up in ditches" fear. How do you break through all that? How do you address what Cornell West calls the "niggerization" of black people, where their history of being downtrodden, rejected, unsafe, poorly treated by government and society, becomes a trap from which they cannot escape, and which is further beaten into them every time a man is stopped, for no reason other than racial profiling, by the police, and where they, through no fault of their own, appear threatening to people of other races and even their own. This goes for middle and upper class black experience too. And then the crime rates in the poor neighbourhoods, typical of socially deprived areas, which necessitate the increased presence of police, which leads to racial profiling, and on and on it goes.

Oh boo hoo! Learn to behave properly, take responsibility for your kids and make sure they go and get educated. Stop blaming others.

The shooter was at a BLM rally and apparently has been posting stuff on their facebook site (amongst other racist pages).

As seen in the likes of Baltimore and Feguson, BLM is a magnet for those who want to use it as an excuse to riot and loot. Others just want to cash in on the trend (Like Jay-Z and Beyoncé) to further careers and make money off the back of it the same as Al and Jesse have done for years.
The cops are the only thing standing in the way of anarchy and you have no appreciation for them and the tough job they have to do.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on July 10, 2016, 04:51:35 AM
Love how the NRA is so supportive of Castile, who had a license to carry a concealed weapon permit. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 10, 2016, 12:55:56 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 10, 2016, 02:27:15 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 09, 2016, 08:58:53 PM
Quote from: Muck Savage on July 09, 2016, 06:43:59 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 09, 2016, 12:18:15 PM


So what do you propose?

That black people just keep their heads down and accept their lot in life. Accept that they're treated disproportionately harshly by the justice system, both police and courts, for the same crimes as whites? Accept that police are more likely to kill them just because the cop is prejudiced or afraid?

Should the anti-abortion movement be shut down because once in a while some nut goes too far and bombs a clinic or shoots a doctor dead?

These problems existed LONG before BLM. Its just that they are now getting an airing and some pushback due to mobile phone videos.

I don't believe that these hate group are the right way to go. Certainly going on a roof-top and shooting a Cops is not the right way. This was not a terrorist as has been mentioned before, this was racially motivated by a racist. Just as some of the cop shootings have been racially motivated.

It needs strong leadership.
Jobs - We need more jobs in areas that are predominantly Black. Black unemployment rates have gone up in the last few years. More Black families are on benefits, food stamps etc.

Schools - The school structure needs to be fixed. It is set up that the rich areas continue to get the better teachers, facilities etc. More money needs to be put into this in Black areas. Education is very important

Police relationships - Needs to be addressed. Police need to be given X% of time each week to work on community projects each week in Black areas, with or without uniforms. This time should be on the clock, not their own free time.

In the last 24 hours, there have been 4 ambush's on Police across the country. As sure as night and day another innocent Black man will be shot.

Until something along these lines change Racists will shoot innocent people on both sides.

But the shooter in Dallas was not associated with BLM, which is not an organized, centralized group anyway, more a loose collection of groups under one umbrella, some good, some not so good. Kind of like the Tea Party movement in organization.

I hear you on the other stuff, but will it ever happen? In many areas, school funding is tied in with property taxes, which basically causes a positive (or negative) feedback loop, in that the schools in the rich areas are well funded while those in poor areas are not. School quality is in turn an influence on property values, and so round and round it goes. People are very reluctant to give that up. Even in NYC you see it's influence, with many teachers opting to take advantage of accelerated certification programmes, before fleeing for the suburbs once they've done their due time, meaning that poor schools are often stuck with inexperienced and less able teachers. And even in liberal, progressive NYC, you see occasional push-back from parents in good public schools when efforts are made to include the housing projects down the block in the catchment for their school. Not really because their child will sit side by side with poor black or hispanic kids, but because their child might be passed over and not get a coveted place in the school at all.

With the police, it will take years, with the already poisonous relationships in some areas, and the "snitches end up in ditches" fear. How do you break through all that? How do you address what Cornell West calls the "niggerization" of black people, where their history of being downtrodden, rejected, unsafe, poorly treated by government and society, becomes a trap from which they cannot escape, and which is further beaten into them every time a man is stopped, for no reason other than racial profiling, by the police, and where they, through no fault of their own, appear threatening to people of other races and even their own. This goes for middle and upper class black experience too. And then the crime rates in the poor neighbourhoods, typical of socially deprived areas, which necessitate the increased presence of police, which leads to racial profiling, and on and on it goes.

Oh boo hoo! Learn to behave properly, take responsibility for your kids and make sure they go and get educated. Stop blaming others.

The shooter was at a BLM rally and apparently has been posting stuff on their facebook site (amongst other racist pages).

As seen in the likes of Baltimore and Feguson, BLM is a magnet for those who want to use it as an excuse to riot and loot. Others just want to cash in on the trend (Like Jay-Z and Beyoncé) to further careers and make money off the back of it the same as Al and Jesse have done for years.
The cops are the only thing standing in the way of anarchy and you have no appreciation for them and the tough job they have to do.

Well jaysus, why didn't anyone ever think before that it was as simple as "Learn to behave properly, take responsibility for your kids and make sure they go and get educated. Stop blaming others."

Stupid, whining black people. ::)

And of course, as usual, not even a hint of understanding from yourself that black people really are subject to racism in their daily lives that white people never have to experience.

And, by the way, I have great appreciation for the jobs the police do. One can appreciate their work, while also realizing that problems exist.

Too complicated I guess for the conservative, "you're either for us or agin us" mindset.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 10, 2016, 12:56:34 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on July 10, 2016, 04:51:35 AM
Love how the NRA is so supportive of Castile, who had a license to carry a concealed weapon permit.

And the GOP politicians too.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 10, 2016, 01:40:59 PM
One more thing Foxcommander. You claim that As seen in the likes of Baltimore and Feguson, BLM is a magnet for those who want to use it as an excuse to riot and loot. Others just want to cash in on the trend (Like Jay-Z and Beyoncé) to further careers and make money off the back of it the same as Al and Jesse have done for years.

So what is the breakdown here? What is the proportion of BLM marches/protests that have involved riots and looting?

You're blaming them for this murderer's actions. What proportion of BLM activities have lead to murders, of police or otherwise?

I would ask you what the response of black people SHOULD be to the various unnecessary killings of black men by police, but that would require your acknowledgement that a problem even exists.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on July 10, 2016, 02:21:59 PM
We were brought here in chains, against our will. Beaten, raped, abused, and then tortured if we fought back. Our men valued for their strength and brawn until that physicality no longer lined your pockets, and then we became frightening and aggressive.
We were lynched, terrorized in our own country, and denied the rights that we were entitled to in our own Constitution. We served our nation to secure freedom for the world, only to return to a nation in which we ourselves were not free.
We are targeted, harassed, falsely accused and then told we bring this on ourselves because we do not "act like the rest of society." But did any of the above happen to the rest of society?
I'm tired. Tired of smoothing your ruffled feathers in my presence because of your fear. Tired of being exceptional so that I can be treated like "the rest of society."
I'm tired of having to argue my humanity to you.
But most of all, tired of looking into the faces of my little boys, and feeling like I have to extinguish their joy, their exuberance, because you think "black men are more dangerous than men of other races."
My boys like Pokemon, probably like your boys. My boys play soccer, probably like your boys. My boys are bright, and curious and gifted, probably like your boys. But my boys will be hunted. Will yours?

Great post in the comment section of the NY Times
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 10, 2016, 09:08:14 PM
Quote from: heganboy on July 10, 2016, 02:21:59 PM
We were brought here in chains, against our will. Beaten, raped, abused, and then tortured if we fought back. Our men valued for their strength and brawn until that physicality no longer lined your pockets, and then we became frightening and aggressive.
We were lynched, terrorized in our own country, and denied the rights that we were entitled to in our own Constitution. We served our nation to secure freedom for the world, only to return to a nation in which we ourselves were not free.
We are targeted, harassed, falsely accused and then told we bring this on ourselves because we do not "act like the rest of society." But did any of the above happen to the rest of society?
I'm tired. Tired of smoothing your ruffled feathers in my presence because of your fear. Tired of being exceptional so that I can be treated like "the rest of society."
I'm tired of having to argue my humanity to you.
But most of all, tired of looking into the faces of my little boys, and feeling like I have to extinguish their joy, their exuberance, because you think "black men are more dangerous than men of other races."
My boys like Pokemon, probably like your boys. My boys play soccer, probably like your boys. My boys are bright, and curious and gifted, probably like your boys. But my boys will be hunted. Will yours?

Great post in the comment section of the NY Times

RFK after Martin Luther King was murdered
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoKzCff8Zbs

There are some very eloquent black statements on the police and black people . this is re Ferguson

•   http://www.nme.com/news/run-the-jewels/81347
•   
•   I would like to say Rest in Peace to Michael Brown. I would like to give all thoughts and prayers to the people out there peacefully protesting. I also give thoughts and prayers to the people who could not hold their anger in because riots are only the language of the unhold. We usually come on to Queen's 'Champion', but I just got to tell you today, no matter how much we do it, no matter how much we get shit together, shit comes along and kicks you on your ass. Tonight, I got kicked on my ass when I heard that prosecutor. You motherfuckers got me today, I knew it was coming when Eric Holder decided to resign. You motherfuckers got me today. You kicked me on my ass today, because I have a 20-year-old son and a 12-year-old son, and I'm so afraid for them today.

•   He continued: "When I stood on the bus, and I cried, and I hugged my friend, I said, 'These motherfuckers got me today.' When I stood in front of my wife, and I cried like a baby, I said, 'These motherfuckers got me today. You motherfuckers will not own tomorrow, we will not bend to your fear, we will not accept your pain, we are not going to keep playing that race card, because we know you don't value my skin. We know you do value his (El-P), but we're friends and nothing is going to devalue that."

"There was no peace in my heart and I wanted to walk out to 'Burn This Motherfucker Down'. But I got to tell you, I'm from Atlanta, Georgia, something said, 'Just look for something [Martin Luther King Jr] might have said,' so I Googled Martin King and Wikipedia popped up, and he was 39 years old when you motherfuckers killed him. He was the same age as I am, the same age as [El-P]. He was a young man when you killed him."

"But I can promise you today, if I die when I walk off this stage tomorrow, I'll let you know this: it is not about race, it is not a class, it's not about colour, it's about what they killed him for. It's about poverty, it's about greed, and it's about a war machine. It's about a war machine that uses you. So as I go tomorrow, I might go the day after, the one thing I want you to know is that it's us against the motherfucking machine!"

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: NAG1 on July 11, 2016, 01:54:58 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 10, 2016, 09:08:14 PM
Quote from: heganboy on July 10, 2016, 02:21:59 PM
We were brought here in chains, against our will. Beaten, raped, abused, and then tortured if we fought back. Our men valued for their strength and brawn until that physicality no longer lined your pockets, and then we became frightening and aggressive.
We were lynched, terrorized in our own country, and denied the rights that we were entitled to in our own Constitution. We served our nation to secure freedom for the world, only to return to a nation in which we ourselves were not free.
We are targeted, harassed, falsely accused and then told we bring this on ourselves because we do not "act like the rest of society." But did any of the above happen to the rest of society?
I'm tired. Tired of smoothing your ruffled feathers in my presence because of your fear. Tired of being exceptional so that I can be treated like "the rest of society."
I'm tired of having to argue my humanity to you.
But most of all, tired of looking into the faces of my little boys, and feeling like I have to extinguish their joy, their exuberance, because you think "black men are more dangerous than men of other races."
My boys like Pokemon, probably like your boys. My boys play soccer, probably like your boys. My boys are bright, and curious and gifted, probably like your boys. But my boys will be hunted. Will yours?

Great post in the comment section of the NY Times

RFK after Martin Luther King was murdered
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoKzCff8Zbs

There are some very eloquent black statements on the police and black people . this is re Ferguson

•   http://www.nme.com/news/run-the-jewels/81347
•   
•   I would like to say Rest in Peace to Michael Brown. I would like to give all thoughts and prayers to the people out there peacefully protesting. I also give thoughts and prayers to the people who could not hold their anger in because riots are only the language of the unhold. We usually come on to Queen's 'Champion', but I just got to tell you today, no matter how much we do it, no matter how much we get shit together, shit comes along and kicks you on your ass. Tonight, I got kicked on my ass when I heard that prosecutor. You motherfuckers got me today, I knew it was coming when Eric Holder decided to resign. You motherfuckers got me today. You kicked me on my ass today, because I have a 20-year-old son and a 12-year-old son, and I'm so afraid for them today.

•   He continued: "When I stood on the bus, and I cried, and I hugged my friend, I said, 'These motherfuckers got me today.' When I stood in front of my wife, and I cried like a baby, I said, 'These motherfuckers got me today. You motherfuckers will not own tomorrow, we will not bend to your fear, we will not accept your pain, we are not going to keep playing that race card, because we know you don't value my skin. We know you do value his (El-P), but we're friends and nothing is going to devalue that."

"There was no peace in my heart and I wanted to walk out to 'Burn This Motherfucker Down'. But I got to tell you, I'm from Atlanta, Georgia, something said, 'Just look for something [Martin Luther King Jr] might have said,' so I Googled Martin King and Wikipedia popped up, and he was 39 years old when you motherfuckers killed him. He was the same age as I am, the same age as [El-P]. He was a young man when you killed him."

"But I can promise you today, if I die when I walk off this stage tomorrow, I'll let you know this: it is not about race, it is not a class, it's not about colour, it's about what they killed him for. It's about poverty, it's about greed, and it's about a war machine. It's about a war machine that uses you. So as I go tomorrow, I might go the day after, the one thing I want you to know is that it's us against the motherfucking machine!"


What bullshit is this?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on July 11, 2016, 04:21:47 PM
Quote from: heganboy on July 10, 2016, 02:21:59 PM
We were brought here in chains, against our will. Beaten, raped, abused, and then tortured if we fought back. Our men valued for their strength and brawn until that physicality no longer lined your pockets, and then we became frightening and aggressive.
We were lynched, terrorized in our own country, and denied the rights that we were entitled to in our own Constitution. We served our nation to secure freedom for the world, only to return to a nation in which we ourselves were not free.
We are targeted, harassed, falsely accused and then told we bring this on ourselves because we do not "act like the rest of society." But did any of the above happen to the rest of society?
I'm tired. Tired of smoothing your ruffled feathers in my presence because of your fear. Tired of being exceptional so that I can be treated like "the rest of society."
I'm tired of having to argue my humanity to you.
But most of all, tired of looking into the faces of my little boys, and feeling like I have to extinguish their joy, their exuberance, because you think "black men are more dangerous than men of other races."
My boys like Pokemon, probably like your boys. My boys play soccer, probably like your boys. My boys are bright, and curious and gifted, probably like your boys. But my boys will be hunted. Will yours?

Great post in the comment section of the NY Times

Could be a quote directly from "white cargo" or "to hell or barbados" about the first slaves in this country - the Irish....

The Irish slave was the only slave before the dutch brought African slaves. The Irish were beneath those slaves because we couldn't take the extreme heat and we fetched less money at auction....

where did things change since for both groups?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trileacman on July 11, 2016, 08:53:25 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 11, 2016, 04:21:47 PM
Quote from: heganboy on July 10, 2016, 02:21:59 PM
We were brought here in chains, against our will. Beaten, raped, abused, and then tortured if we fought back. Our men valued for their strength and brawn until that physicality no longer lined your pockets, and then we became frightening and aggressive.
We were lynched, terrorized in our own country, and denied the rights that we were entitled to in our own Constitution. We served our nation to secure freedom for the world, only to return to a nation in which we ourselves were not free.
We are targeted, harassed, falsely accused and then told we bring this on ourselves because we do not "act like the rest of society." But did any of the above happen to the rest of society?
I'm tired. Tired of smoothing your ruffled feathers in my presence because of your fear. Tired of being exceptional so that I can be treated like "the rest of society."
I'm tired of having to argue my humanity to you.
But most of all, tired of looking into the faces of my little boys, and feeling like I have to extinguish their joy, their exuberance, because you think "black men are more dangerous than men of other races."
My boys like Pokemon, probably like your boys. My boys play soccer, probably like your boys. My boys are bright, and curious and gifted, probably like your boys. But my boys will be hunted. Will yours?

Great post in the comment section of the NY Times

Could be a quote directly from "white cargo" or "to hell or barbados" about the first slaves in this country - the Irish....

The Irish slave was the only slave before the dutch brought African slaves. The Irish were beneath those slaves because we couldn't take the extreme heat and we fetched less money at auction....

where did things change since for both groups?

There's a pretty big difference between indentured servitude and slavery.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: foxcommander on July 12, 2016, 02:38:24 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 10, 2016, 12:55:56 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 10, 2016, 02:27:15 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 09, 2016, 08:58:53 PM
Quote from: Muck Savage on July 09, 2016, 06:43:59 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 09, 2016, 12:18:15 PM


So what do you propose?

That black people just keep their heads down and accept their lot in life. Accept that they're treated disproportionately harshly by the justice system, both police and courts, for the same crimes as whites? Accept that police are more likely to kill them just because the cop is prejudiced or afraid?

Should the anti-abortion movement be shut down because once in a while some nut goes too far and bombs a clinic or shoots a doctor dead?

These problems existed LONG before BLM. Its just that they are now getting an airing and some pushback due to mobile phone videos.

I don't believe that these hate group are the right way to go. Certainly going on a roof-top and shooting a Cops is not the right way. This was not a terrorist as has been mentioned before, this was racially motivated by a racist. Just as some of the cop shootings have been racially motivated.

It needs strong leadership.
Jobs - We need more jobs in areas that are predominantly Black. Black unemployment rates have gone up in the last few years. More Black families are on benefits, food stamps etc.

Schools - The school structure needs to be fixed. It is set up that the rich areas continue to get the better teachers, facilities etc. More money needs to be put into this in Black areas. Education is very important

Police relationships - Needs to be addressed. Police need to be given X% of time each week to work on community projects each week in Black areas, with or without uniforms. This time should be on the clock, not their own free time.

In the last 24 hours, there have been 4 ambush's on Police across the country. As sure as night and day another innocent Black man will be shot.

Until something along these lines change Racists will shoot innocent people on both sides.

But the shooter in Dallas was not associated with BLM, which is not an organized, centralized group anyway, more a loose collection of groups under one umbrella, some good, some not so good. Kind of like the Tea Party movement in organization.

I hear you on the other stuff, but will it ever happen? In many areas, school funding is tied in with property taxes, which basically causes a positive (or negative) feedback loop, in that the schools in the rich areas are well funded while those in poor areas are not. School quality is in turn an influence on property values, and so round and round it goes. People are very reluctant to give that up. Even in NYC you see it's influence, with many teachers opting to take advantage of accelerated certification programmes, before fleeing for the suburbs once they've done their due time, meaning that poor schools are often stuck with inexperienced and less able teachers. And even in liberal, progressive NYC, you see occasional push-back from parents in good public schools when efforts are made to include the housing projects down the block in the catchment for their school. Not really because their child will sit side by side with poor black or hispanic kids, but because their child might be passed over and not get a coveted place in the school at all.

With the police, it will take years, with the already poisonous relationships in some areas, and the "snitches end up in ditches" fear. How do you break through all that? How do you address what Cornell West calls the "niggerization" of black people, where their history of being downtrodden, rejected, unsafe, poorly treated by government and society, becomes a trap from which they cannot escape, and which is further beaten into them every time a man is stopped, for no reason other than racial profiling, by the police, and where they, through no fault of their own, appear threatening to people of other races and even their own. This goes for middle and upper class black experience too. And then the crime rates in the poor neighbourhoods, typical of socially deprived areas, which necessitate the increased presence of police, which leads to racial profiling, and on and on it goes.

Oh boo hoo! Learn to behave properly, take responsibility for your kids and make sure they go and get educated. Stop blaming others.

The shooter was at a BLM rally and apparently has been posting stuff on their facebook site (amongst other racist pages).

As seen in the likes of Baltimore and Feguson, BLM is a magnet for those who want to use it as an excuse to riot and loot. Others just want to cash in on the trend (Like Jay-Z and Beyoncé) to further careers and make money off the back of it the same as Al and Jesse have done for years.
The cops are the only thing standing in the way of anarchy and you have no appreciation for them and the tough job they have to do.

Well jaysus, why didn't anyone ever think before that it was as simple as "Learn to behave properly, take responsibility for your kids and make sure they go and get educated. Stop blaming others."

Stupid, whining black people. ::)

And of course, as usual, not even a hint of understanding from yourself that black people really are subject to racism in their daily lives that white people never have to experience.

And, by the way, I have great appreciation for the jobs the police do. One can appreciate their work, while also realizing that problems exist.

Too complicated I guess for the conservative, "you're either for us or agin us" mindset.

Oh don't tell me you're going to start on white privilege! If you feel so bad then go live in the projects and try reason with the folk who live there to stop breaking the law, thus eliminating the need for the police.
Problem solved!

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 12, 2016, 03:10:13 AM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 12, 2016, 02:38:24 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 10, 2016, 12:55:56 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 10, 2016, 02:27:15 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 09, 2016, 08:58:53 PM
Quote from: Muck Savage on July 09, 2016, 06:43:59 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 09, 2016, 12:18:15 PM


So what do you propose?

That black people just keep their heads down and accept their lot in life. Accept that they're treated disproportionately harshly by the justice system, both police and courts, for the same crimes as whites? Accept that police are more likely to kill them just because the cop is prejudiced or afraid?

Should the anti-abortion movement be shut down because once in a while some nut goes too far and bombs a clinic or shoots a doctor dead?

These problems existed LONG before BLM. Its just that they are now getting an airing and some pushback due to mobile phone videos.

I don't believe that these hate group are the right way to go. Certainly going on a roof-top and shooting a Cops is not the right way. This was not a terrorist as has been mentioned before, this was racially motivated by a racist. Just as some of the cop shootings have been racially motivated.

It needs strong leadership.
Jobs - We need more jobs in areas that are predominantly Black. Black unemployment rates have gone up in the last few years. More Black families are on benefits, food stamps etc.

Schools - The school structure needs to be fixed. It is set up that the rich areas continue to get the better teachers, facilities etc. More money needs to be put into this in Black areas. Education is very important

Police relationships - Needs to be addressed. Police need to be given X% of time each week to work on community projects each week in Black areas, with or without uniforms. This time should be on the clock, not their own free time.

In the last 24 hours, there have been 4 ambush's on Police across the country. As sure as night and day another innocent Black man will be shot.

Until something along these lines change Racists will shoot innocent people on both sides.

But the shooter in Dallas was not associated with BLM, which is not an organized, centralized group anyway, more a loose collection of groups under one umbrella, some good, some not so good. Kind of like the Tea Party movement in organization.

I hear you on the other stuff, but will it ever happen? In many areas, school funding is tied in with property taxes, which basically causes a positive (or negative) feedback loop, in that the schools in the rich areas are well funded while those in poor areas are not. School quality is in turn an influence on property values, and so round and round it goes. People are very reluctant to give that up. Even in NYC you see it's influence, with many teachers opting to take advantage of accelerated certification programmes, before fleeing for the suburbs once they've done their due time, meaning that poor schools are often stuck with inexperienced and less able teachers. And even in liberal, progressive NYC, you see occasional push-back from parents in good public schools when efforts are made to include the housing projects down the block in the catchment for their school. Not really because their child will sit side by side with poor black or hispanic kids, but because their child might be passed over and not get a coveted place in the school at all.

With the police, it will take years, with the already poisonous relationships in some areas, and the "snitches end up in ditches" fear. How do you break through all that? How do you address what Cornell West calls the "niggerization" of black people, where their history of being downtrodden, rejected, unsafe, poorly treated by government and society, becomes a trap from which they cannot escape, and which is further beaten into them every time a man is stopped, for no reason other than racial profiling, by the police, and where they, through no fault of their own, appear threatening to people of other races and even their own. This goes for middle and upper class black experience too. And then the crime rates in the poor neighbourhoods, typical of socially deprived areas, which necessitate the increased presence of police, which leads to racial profiling, and on and on it goes.

Oh boo hoo! Learn to behave properly, take responsibility for your kids and make sure they go and get educated. Stop blaming others.

The shooter was at a BLM rally and apparently has been posting stuff on their facebook site (amongst other racist pages).

As seen in the likes of Baltimore and Feguson, BLM is a magnet for those who want to use it as an excuse to riot and loot. Others just want to cash in on the trend (Like Jay-Z and Beyoncé) to further careers and make money off the back of it the same as Al and Jesse have done for years.
The cops are the only thing standing in the way of anarchy and you have no appreciation for them and the tough job they have to do.

Well jaysus, why didn't anyone ever think before that it was as simple as "Learn to behave properly, take responsibility for your kids and make sure they go and get educated. Stop blaming others."

Stupid, whining black people. ::)

And of course, as usual, not even a hint of understanding from yourself that black people really are subject to racism in their daily lives that white people never have to experience.

And, by the way, I have great appreciation for the jobs the police do. One can appreciate their work, while also realizing that problems exist.

Too complicated I guess for the conservative, "you're either for us or agin us" mindset.

Oh don't tell me you're going to start on white privilege! If you feel so bad then go live in the projects and try reason with the folk who live there to stop breaking the law, thus eliminating the need for the police.
Problem solved!

Another response bursting with intelligent analysis and solutions!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on July 12, 2016, 03:53:23 AM
Quote from: trileacman on July 11, 2016, 08:53:25 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 11, 2016, 04:21:47 PM
Quote from: heganboy on July 10, 2016, 02:21:59 PM
We were brought here in chains, against our will. Beaten, raped, abused, and then tortured if we fought back. Our men valued for their strength and brawn until that physicality no longer lined your pockets, and then we became frightening and aggressive.
We were lynched, terrorized in our own country, and denied the rights that we were entitled to in our own Constitution. We served our nation to secure freedom for the world, only to return to a nation in which we ourselves were not free.
We are targeted, harassed, falsely accused and then told we bring this on ourselves because we do not "act like the rest of society." But did any of the above happen to the rest of society?
I'm tired. Tired of smoothing your ruffled feathers in my presence because of your fear. Tired of being exceptional so that I can be treated like "the rest of society."
I'm tired of having to argue my humanity to you.
But most of all, tired of looking into the faces of my little boys, and feeling like I have to extinguish their joy, their exuberance, because you think "black men are more dangerous than men of other races."
My boys like Pokemon, probably like your boys. My boys play soccer, probably like your boys. My boys are bright, and curious and gifted, probably like your boys. But my boys will be hunted. Will yours?

Great post in the comment section of the NY Times

Could be a quote directly from "white cargo" or "to hell or barbados" about the first slaves in this country - the Irish....

The Irish slave was the only slave before the dutch brought African slaves. The Irish were beneath those slaves because we couldn't take the extreme heat and we fetched less money at auction....

where did things change since for both groups?

There's a pretty big difference between indentured servitude and slavery.
really? go and read the books and then comment again......or google some info...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 12, 2016, 06:56:10 AM
Guns go back to slavery and the genocide of the Indians.
You can't switch off trauma 

Most Settler colonial countries have problems with violence. The plantation of ulster is still iterating its filth.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 12, 2016, 01:22:12 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 12, 2016, 03:53:23 AM
Quote from: trileacman on July 11, 2016, 08:53:25 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 11, 2016, 04:21:47 PM
Quote from: heganboy on July 10, 2016, 02:21:59 PM
We were brought here in chains, against our will. Beaten, raped, abused, and then tortured if we fought back. Our men valued for their strength and brawn until that physicality no longer lined your pockets, and then we became frightening and aggressive.
We were lynched, terrorized in our own country, and denied the rights that we were entitled to in our own Constitution. We served our nation to secure freedom for the world, only to return to a nation in which we ourselves were not free.
We are targeted, harassed, falsely accused and then told we bring this on ourselves because we do not "act like the rest of society." But did any of the above happen to the rest of society?
I'm tired. Tired of smoothing your ruffled feathers in my presence because of your fear. Tired of being exceptional so that I can be treated like "the rest of society."
I'm tired of having to argue my humanity to you.
But most of all, tired of looking into the faces of my little boys, and feeling like I have to extinguish their joy, their exuberance, because you think "black men are more dangerous than men of other races."
My boys like Pokemon, probably like your boys. My boys play soccer, probably like your boys. My boys are bright, and curious and gifted, probably like your boys. But my boys will be hunted. Will yours?

Great post in the comment section of the NY Times

Could be a quote directly from "white cargo" or "to hell or barbados" about the first slaves in this country - the Irish....

The Irish slave was the only slave before the dutch brought African slaves. The Irish were beneath those slaves because we couldn't take the extreme heat and we fetched less money at auction....

where did things change since for both groups?

There's a pretty big difference between indentured servitude and slavery.
really? go and read the books and then comment again......or google some info...

The Irish were mainly in the plantations in the Carribean. Also, the Brits didn't really discriminate on grounds of nationality, they did so on grounds of social status. So along with the Irish, there were Welsh, Scots and even English sold into indentured servitude in the Carribean. Although many of the non-Irish were taken from the prisons.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 12, 2016, 01:28:07 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redleg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDWAt_QfMvA
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 12, 2016, 01:31:30 PM
http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/07/08/after-dallas-police-shooting-violence-begets-violence/

But the connections between the three shootings nonetheless have deep roots in the American soil. As a culture we have too often chosen to address our problems with violence, even as we continue to make guns widely available so that citizens can do the same. We reflexively resort to force to address foreign policy challenges, whether in Iraq, Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan, Nicaragua, El Salvador, or Grenada. We spend more on our military budget than the next seven largest militaries in the world combined. And we declare endless "wars" on crime, drugs, terror, or the latest disease.

Our Constitution was predicated on socially sanctioned violence, in particular the force that was necessary to relegate about 500,000 of our fellow countrymen and women to slavery. It took a civil war to eradicate that sin. An entrenched system of state and private terror enforced Jim Crow segregation for decades thereafter.

The founding commitment to force is also reflected in the Second Amendment—whether it is viewed as preserving a prerogative of states to field militias or, as the Supreme Court has declared, an individual right to bear arms. As I wrote recently in The New York Review, Americans own about 300 million guns, or 88 for every 100 people, more guns per capita than any other nation. Each year, more than 30,000 Americans die by gunfire. Our gun murder rate is about thirty times that of the United Kingdom, which has strict gun laws, and where the vast majority of the police do not carry firearms. So far this year, according to The Washington Post, more than five hundred people have been killed in police shootings. Both of the men shot by police this week were carrying guns.

But in this instance, it is the "war" on crime itself that is most to blame. More than any other nation in the world, we turn to the state-sanctioned compulsion of the criminal justice system to "solve" social problems, including mental illness, drug addiction, poverty, homelessness, and lack of opportunity. Our "first responders" are too often the police, bearing handcuffs and guns rather than public assistance or life support. We arrest and incarcerate our fellow citizens at the highest per capita rate in the world. And those targeted are disproportionately black and Hispanic men living in poverty-stricken inner-city neighborhoods. We can't seem to find the resources to invest in those neighborhoods to support adequate schools, job training programs, after-care for children let out of school before their parents come home, or economic development.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqB-wf49Xsc
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 12, 2016, 01:49:11 PM
http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/07/02/police-injustice-how-the-court-fails/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 12, 2016, 01:54:40 PM
http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2012/12/15/our-moloch/
Our Moloch

Garry Wills   


Few crimes are more harshly forbidden in the Old Testament than sacrifice to the god Moloch (for which see Leviticus 18.21, 20.1-5). The sacrifice referred to was of living children consumed in the fires of offering to Moloch. Ever since then, worship of Moloch has been the sign of a deeply degraded culture. Ancient Romans justified the destruction of Carthage by noting that children were sacrificed to Moloch there. Milton represented Moloch as the first pagan god who joined Satan's war on humankind:


First Moloch, horrid king, besmear'd with blood
Of human sacrifice, and parents' tears,
Though for the noise of Drums and Timbrels loud
Their children's cries unheard, that pass'd through fire
To his grim idol. (Paradise Lost 1.392-96)

Read again those lines, with recent images seared into our brains—"besmeared with blood" and "parents' tears." They give the real meaning of what happened at Sandy Hook Elementary School Friday morning. That horror cannot be blamed just on one unhinged person. It was the sacrifice we as a culture made, and continually make, to our demonic god. We guarantee that crazed man after crazed man will have a flood of killing power readily supplied him. We have to make that offering, out of devotion to our Moloch, our god. The gun is our Moloch. We sacrifice children to him daily—sometimes, as at Sandy Hook, by directly throwing them into the fire-hose of bullets from our protected private killing machines, sometimes by blighting our children's lives by the death of a parent, a schoolmate, a teacher, a protector. Sometimes this is done by mass killings (eight this year), sometimes by private offerings to the god (thousands this year).

The gun is not a mere tool, a bit of technology, a political issue, a point of debate. It is an object of reverence. Devotion to it precludes interruption with the sacrifices it entails. Like most gods, it does what it will, and cannot be questioned. Its acolytes think it is capable only of good things. It guarantees life and safety and freedom. It even guarantees law. Law grows from it. Then how can law question it?

Its power to do good is matched by its incapacity to do anything wrong. It cannot kill. Thwarting the god is what kills. If it seems to kill, that is only because the god's bottomless appetite for death has not been adequately fed. The answer to problems caused by guns is more guns, millions of guns, guns everywhere, carried openly, carried secretly, in bars, in churches, in offices, in government buildings. Only the lack of guns can be a curse, not their beneficent omnipresence.

Adoration of Moloch permeates the country, imposing a hushed silence as he works his will. One cannot question his rites, even as the blood is gushing through the idol's teeth. The White House spokesman invokes the silence of traditional in religious ceremony. "It is not the time" to question Moloch. No time is right for showing disrespect for Moloch.

The fact that the gun is a reverenced god can be seen in its manifold and apparently resistless powers. How do we worship it? Let us count the ways:


1. It has the power to destroy the reasoning process. It forbids making logical connections. We are required to deny that there is any connection between the fact that we have the greatest number of guns in private hands and the greatest number of deaths from them. Denial on this scale always comes from or is protected by religious fundamentalism. Thus do we deny global warming, or evolution, or biblical errancy. Reason is helpless before such abject faith.


2. It has the power to turn all our politicians as a class into invertebrate and mute attendants at the shrine. None dare suggest that Moloch can in any way be reined in without being denounced by the pope of this religion, National Rifle Association CEO Wayne LaPierre, as trying to destroy Moloch, to take away all guns. They whimper and say they never entertained such heresy. Many flourish their guns while campaigning, or boast that they have themselves hunted "varmints." Better that the children die or their lives be blasted than that a politician should risk an election against the dread sentence of NRA excommunication.


3. It has the power to distort our constitutional thinking. It says that the right to "bear arms," a military term, gives anyone, anywhere in our country, the power to mow down civilians with military weapons. Even the Supreme Court has been cowed, reversing its own long history of recognizing that the Second Amendment applied to militias. Now the court feels bound to guarantee that any every madman can indulge his "religion" of slaughter. Moloch brooks no dissent, even from the highest court in the land.

Though LaPierre is the pope of this religion, its most successful Peter the Hermit, preaching the crusade for Moloch, was Charlton Heston, a symbol of the Americanism of loving guns. I have often thought that we should raise a statue of Heston at each of the many sites of multiple murders around our land. We would soon have armies of statues, whole droves of Heston acolytes standing sentry at the shrines of Moloch dotting the landscape. Molochism is the one religion that can never be separated from the state. The state itself bows down to Moloch, and protects the sacrifices made to him. So let us celebrate the falling bodies and rising statues as a demonstration of our fealty, our bondage, to the great god Gun.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: foxcommander on July 17, 2016, 08:17:34 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 10, 2016, 01:40:59 PM
One more thing Foxcommander. You claim that As seen in the likes of Baltimore and Feguson, BLM is a magnet for those who want to use it as an excuse to riot and loot. Others just want to cash in on the trend (Like Jay-Z and Beyoncé) to further careers and make money off the back of it the same as Al and Jesse have done for years.

So what is the breakdown here? What is the proportion of BLM marches/protests that have involved riots and looting?

You're blaming them for this murderer's actions. What proportion of BLM activities have lead to murders, of police or otherwise?

I would ask you what the response of black people SHOULD be to the various unnecessary killings of black men by police, but that would require your acknowledgement that a problem even exists.

Feel stupid yet J70?

Looting and rioting in Baton Rouge has led to todays events. BLM is the group that gets these folk together.

So it's only if a police officer is killed first that shooting an armed killer who happens to be a black person is in any way justifiable in the minds of BLM supporters and liberal leaning folk?



How about this for BLM instruction and recruitment. There are some right r-tards in the crowd clapping their own demise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIr-B686kog
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on July 17, 2016, 09:18:37 PM
this good guy with a guy solution the NRA normally give doesn't seem to be working this weather, me thinks no access to guns might, just might be a better solution,

Oh that right that not work now, as guns have flooded America for years, bit like closing the bottle after the genie escapes.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 17, 2016, 10:49:18 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 17, 2016, 08:17:34 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 10, 2016, 01:40:59 PM
One more thing Foxcommander. You claim that As seen in the likes of Baltimore and Feguson, BLM is a magnet for those who want to use it as an excuse to riot and loot. Others just want to cash in on the trend (Like Jay-Z and Beyoncé) to further careers and make money off the back of it the same as Al and Jesse have done for years.

So what is the breakdown here? What is the proportion of BLM marches/protests that have involved riots and looting?

You're blaming them for this murderer's actions. What proportion of BLM activities have lead to murders, of police or otherwise?

I would ask you what the response of black people SHOULD be to the various unnecessary killings of black men by police, but that would require your acknowledgement that a problem even exists.

Feel stupid yet J70?

Looting and rioting in Baton Rouge has led to todays events. BLM is the group that gets these folk together.

So it's only if a police officer is killed first that shooting an armed killer who happens to be a black person is in any way justifiable in the minds of BLM supporters and liberal leaning folk?



How about this for BLM instruction and recruitment. There are some right r-tards in the crowd clapping their own demise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIr-B686kog

1. I have no problem with anyone calling for the killing of cops or the use of violence against cops or anyone else being charged and arrested. I don't see how that can be protected speech.
2. You still haven't answered the question about the proportion of BLM marches/protests that have involved riots and looting/murders, of police or otherwise.
3. And if BLM should be shut down because of a few nuts who took things too far, then what about the anti-abortion movement?

Interesting that you had to wait a week to respond to my question. Given your apparent knowledge of all things black and BLM, I'm sure the facts are at your fingertips?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on July 18, 2016, 05:26:00 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 17, 2016, 10:49:18 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 17, 2016, 08:17:34 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 10, 2016, 01:40:59 PM
One more thing Foxcommander. You claim that As seen in the likes of Baltimore and Feguson, BLM is a magnet for those who want to use it as an excuse to riot and loot. Others just want to cash in on the trend (Like Jay-Z and Beyoncé) to further careers and make money off the back of it the same as Al and Jesse have done for years.

So what is the breakdown here? What is the proportion of BLM marches/protests that have involved riots and looting?

You're blaming them for this murderer's actions. What proportion of BLM activities have lead to murders, of police or otherwise?

I would ask you what the response of black people SHOULD be to the various unnecessary killings of black men by police, but that would require your acknowledgement that a problem even exists.

Feel stupid yet J70?

Looting and rioting in Baton Rouge has led to todays events. BLM is the group that gets these folk together.

So it's only if a police officer is killed first that shooting an armed killer who happens to be a black person is in any way justifiable in the minds of BLM supporters and liberal leaning folk?



How about this for BLM instruction and recruitment. There are some right r-tards in the crowd clapping their own demise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIr-B686kog

1. I have no problem with anyone calling for the killing of cops or the use of violence against cops or anyone else being charged and arrested. I don't see how that can be protected speech.
2. You still haven't answered the question about the proportion of BLM marches/protests that have involved riots and looting/murders, of police or otherwise.
3. And if BLM should be shut down because of a few nuts who took things too far, then what about the anti-abortion movement?

Interesting that you had to wait a week to respond to my question. Given your apparent knowledge of all things black and BLM, I'm sure the facts are at your fingertips?

I would have thought that was exactly free speech, J70...is it not?   
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: DrinkingHarp on July 18, 2016, 07:22:39 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on July 18, 2016, 05:26:00 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 17, 2016, 10:49:18 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 17, 2016, 08:17:34 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 10, 2016, 01:40:59 PM
One more thing Foxcommander. You claim that As seen in the likes of Baltimore and Feguson, BLM is a magnet for those who want to use it as an excuse to riot and loot. Others just want to cash in on the trend (Like Jay-Z and Beyoncé) to further careers and make money off the back of it the same as Al and Jesse have done for years.

So what is the breakdown here? What is the proportion of BLM marches/protests that have involved riots and looting?

You're blaming them for this murderer's actions. What proportion of BLM activities have lead to murders, of police or otherwise?

I would ask you what the response of black people SHOULD be to the various unnecessary killings of black men by police, but that would require your acknowledgement that a problem even exists.

Feel stupid yet J70?

Looting and rioting in Baton Rouge has led to todays events. BLM is the group that gets these folk together.

So it's only if a police officer is killed first that shooting an armed killer who happens to be a black person is in any way justifiable in the minds of BLM supporters and liberal leaning folk?



How about this for BLM instruction and recruitment. There are some right r-tards in the crowd clapping their own demise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIr-B686kog

1. I have no problem with anyone calling for the killing of cops or the use of violence against cops or anyone else being charged and arrested. I don't see how that can be protected speech.
2. You still haven't answered the question about the proportion of BLM marches/protests that have involved riots and looting/murders, of police or otherwise.
3. And if BLM should be shut down because of a few nuts who took things too far, then what about the anti-abortion movement?

Interesting that you had to wait a week to respond to my question. Given your apparent knowledge of all things black and BLM, I'm sure the facts are at your fingertips?

I would have thought that was exactly free speech, J70...is it not?

Not when the speech is a threat of violence

http://law.justia.com/constitution/us/amendment-01/43-threats-of-violence.html

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Muck Savage on July 18, 2016, 07:24:36 AM
BLM have been running an anti-cop campaign for the past two years. They may not have been directly involved in the cop shootings in the past week but they have encouraged the hate against the police which has resulted in 8 police deaths.
Have they marched about this in the past week? Have they marched about the 25 other Black men shot dead in the past week by other black men? Surly their lives also matter, even the black police officer if they are only going to march for Black lives.
The hate for the police is getting out of hand and even though BLM are not the flame that is doing the damage they are the fan that is stoking it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 18, 2016, 11:29:34 AM
Quote from: Muck Savage on July 18, 2016, 07:24:36 AM
BLM have been running an anti-cop campaign for the past two years. They may not have been directly involved in the cop shootings in the past week but they have encouraged the hate against the police which has resulted in 8 police deaths.
Have they marched about this in the past week? Have they marched about the 25 other Black men shot dead in the past week by other black men? Surly their lives also matter, even the black police officer if they are only going to march for Black lives.
The hate for the police is getting out of hand and even though BLM are not the flame that is doing the damage they are the fan that is stoking it.

What is the flame that is doing the damage?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 18, 2016, 01:40:51 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on July 18, 2016, 05:26:00 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 17, 2016, 10:49:18 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 17, 2016, 08:17:34 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 10, 2016, 01:40:59 PM
One more thing Foxcommander. You claim that As seen in the likes of Baltimore and Feguson, BLM is a magnet for those who want to use it as an excuse to riot and loot. Others just want to cash in on the trend (Like Jay-Z and Beyoncé) to further careers and make money off the back of it the same as Al and Jesse have done for years.

So what is the breakdown here? What is the proportion of BLM marches/protests that have involved riots and looting?

You're blaming them for this murderer's actions. What proportion of BLM activities have lead to murders, of police or otherwise?

I would ask you what the response of black people SHOULD be to the various unnecessary killings of black men by police, but that would require your acknowledgement that a problem even exists.

Feel stupid yet J70?

Looting and rioting in Baton Rouge has led to todays events. BLM is the group that gets these folk together.

So it's only if a police officer is killed first that shooting an armed killer who happens to be a black person is in any way justifiable in the minds of BLM supporters and liberal leaning folk?



How about this for BLM instruction and recruitment. There are some right r-tards in the crowd clapping their own demise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIr-B686kog

1. I have no problem with anyone calling for the killing of cops or the use of violence against cops or anyone else being charged and arrested. I don't see how that can be protected speech.
2. You still haven't answered the question about the proportion of BLM marches/protests that have involved riots and looting/murders, of police or otherwise.
3. And if BLM should be shut down because of a few nuts who took things too far, then what about the anti-abortion movement?

Interesting that you had to wait a week to respond to my question. Given your apparent knowledge of all things black and BLM, I'm sure the facts are at your fingertips?

I would have thought that was exactly free speech, J70...is it not?

In the states, you are right, it probably is.

It all comes down to whether the speech is encouraging "imminent lawless action", as per the Brandenburg case.

So if the protester is telling people to go attack and kill the cops right there and then, it wouldn't be protected speech.

If he is shouting about not taking it anymore and saying that force will be met with force, with no reference to a time or location or individuals, then it would be.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 18, 2016, 01:45:01 PM
One of the biggest eye-openers for me over the past few weeks is the prevelance of states permitting open carry. It really is shocking that people can walk about with unconcealed weapons like in a Wild West town.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on July 18, 2016, 01:46:37 PM
Some would say unconcealed is far better than concealed!

I remember the surprise I felt in my first couple of days in Arizona, queuing up at McDonalds and the guy in front of me had a handgun in clear view tucked into the back of his jeans, TV cop - style.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 18, 2016, 02:06:27 PM
Quote from: Muck Savage on July 18, 2016, 07:24:36 AM
BLM have been running an anti-cop campaign for the past two years. They may not have been directly involved in the cop shootings in the past week but they have encouraged the hate against the police which has resulted in 8 police deaths.
Have they marched about this in the past week? Have they marched about the 25 other Black men shot dead in the past week by other black men? Surly their lives also matter, even the black police officer if they are only going to march for Black lives.
The hate for the police is getting out of hand and even though BLM are not the flame that is doing the damage they are the fan that is stoking it.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are right and that BLM is getting out of hand in their rhetoric. That their tactics need to be reevaluated. Let's put that aside for now.

The issue, the reason for their existence, is the treatment of black people by the justice system i.e. the state, in the US. The unarmed men being killed because the police are afraid/prejudiced and overreact. The historical lack of accountability for law enforcement when it happens. The disparate sentences they receive for the same crimes when compared to white people. The harrassment by law enforcement.

Just because you don't like their rhetoric or their tactics doesn't mean that the issues they are concerned with are illegitimate.

And on the black on black crime - do you seriously think that all these black people don't give a bollocks about what is happening in their own neighbourhoods? That there are no movements out there among black communities trying to address the poverty and social issues which drive the high crime rates in their areas?

Does the right really give a shit about black poverty and crime rates in inner cities, or are their "concerns" just a red herring to try to delegitimize the issues on which BLM is based?

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:36:00 PM
J70 I understand and agree with how you have framed the causes of the problem.  Correct me here if I'm wrong but you seem to sympathize and possibly even condone the current response of attacks on police?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 18, 2016, 03:39:03 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:36:00 PM
J70 I understand and agree with how you have framed the causes of the problem.  Correct me here if I'm wrong but you seem to sympathize and possibly even condone the current response of attacks on police?

Really? What have I said that could be interpreted as sypmathizing with or condoning attacks on police?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:43:48 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 18, 2016, 03:39:03 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:36:00 PM
J70 I understand and agree with how you have framed the causes of the problem.  Correct me here if I'm wrong but you seem to sympathize and possibly even condone the current response of attacks on police?

Really? What have I said that could be interpreted as sypmathizing with or condoning attacks on police?
You're aggressively defending the BLM movement
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on July 18, 2016, 03:53:55 PM
That jump could win gold in Rio. :o
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 18, 2016, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:43:48 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 18, 2016, 03:39:03 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:36:00 PM
J70 I understand and agree with how you have framed the causes of the problem.  Correct me here if I'm wrong but you seem to sympathize and possibly even condone the current response of attacks on police?

Really? What have I said that could be interpreted as sypmathizing with or condoning attacks on police?
You're aggressively defending the BLM movement

Defending the reason for their existence. HOW they protest is a separate issue.

If they're getting coopted for rioting or looting, or they are, as a matter of policy, calling for violence against police, then they need to stop and reevaluate what they're doing. If someone gets carried away once in a while in the heat of the moment and lets their rhetoric get out of hand, that is one thing. If repeated incidents of calling for violence or riots occur, that cannot be defended. Hence, my asking Foxcommander for the breakdown on this, given his apparent knowledge of how pervasive it allegedly is.

And I personally have no problem with arrests and charges of people advocating violence, no matter how vague. But, it appears that in America, at least, such speech is legal, up until you make specific or immediate threats.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 18, 2016, 04:06:31 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:43:48 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 18, 2016, 03:39:03 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:36:00 PM
J70 I understand and agree with how you have framed the causes of the problem.  Correct me here if I'm wrong but you seem to sympathize and possibly even condone the current response of attacks on police?

Really? What have I said that could be interpreted as sypmathizing with or condoning attacks on police?
You're aggressively defending the BLM movement

This is the biggest achievement of the NRA and GOP in my view.

Anyone that dares to question them or their followers is the enemy. You are ISIS, BLM, Al Queda and cop-killer, all rolled into one. All because you oppose the guns laws and rogue cops shooting innocent people.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 04:26:03 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 04:06:31 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:43:48 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 18, 2016, 03:39:03 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:36:00 PM
J70 I understand and agree with how you have framed the causes of the problem.  Correct me here if I'm wrong but you seem to sympathize and possibly even condone the current response of attacks on police?

Really? What have I said that could be interpreted as sypmathizing with or condoning attacks on police?
You're aggressively defending the BLM movement

This is the biggest achievement of the NRA and GOP in my view.

Anyone that dares to question them or their followers is the enemy. You are ISIS, BLM, Al Queda and cop-killer, all rolled into one. All because you oppose the guns laws and rogue cops shooting innocent people.
Muppet i disagree and believe the same assertion can be made on both sides. You watch a youtube video of a woman calmly broadcasting her boyfriend bleeding out in the car beside her and already label him as innocent...because facebook says so...

You'll find a lot of typical republican voters voting for an independent candidate this year. I said at the last election a 3rd party is needed as Red is becoming Purple...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Kickham csc on July 18, 2016, 04:28:05 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 18, 2016, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:43:48 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 18, 2016, 03:39:03 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:36:00 PM
J70 I understand and agree with how you have framed the causes of the problem.  Correct me here if I'm wrong but you seem to sympathize and possibly even condone the current response of attacks on police?

Really? What have I said that could be interpreted as sypmathizing with or condoning attacks on police?
You're aggressively defending the BLM movement

Defending the reason for their existence. HOW they protest is a separate issue.

If they're getting coopted for rioting or looting, or they are, as a matter of policy, calling for violence against police, then they need to stop and reevaluate what they're doing. If someone gets carried away once in a while in the heat of the moment and lets their rhetoric get out of hand, that is one thing. If repeated incidents of calling for violence or riots occur, that cannot be defended. Hence, my asking Foxcommander for the breakdown on this, given his apparent knowledge of how pervasive it allegedly is.

And I personally have no problem with arrests and charges of people advocating violence, no matter how vague. But, it appears that in America, at least, such speech is legal, up until you make specific or immediate threats.

Got agree with that statement. I think that they are directing their ire at the wrong target. The establishment have created a system that is broken and both the Democrats and Republicans are at fault and neither the Democrats or Republicans are interested in finding real solutions.

The politicians are happy to let the police enforce laws that they've made, and use them as a stealth tax collection agency, and mental health triage service, and the only force that is keeping society violently rip each other apart because the gun lobby successfully influences in the favour of any meaningful gun control... and when things go wrong, they'll march with BLM and blame the cops.

BLM should be marching on elected reps place of work, city hall, White House, and Congress, and demanding laws are changed and education improved, and a tax policy that encourages companies to set up or pull employment from areas abject poverty
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on July 18, 2016, 04:48:55 PM
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/07/chicopee_shooting_leaves_15-ye.html


Interesting g one Over the weekend
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2016, 04:49:06 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on July 18, 2016, 01:45:01 PM
One of the biggest eye-openers for me over the past few weeks is the prevelance of states permitting open carry. It really is shocking that people can walk about with unconcealed weapons like in a Wild West town.
For me it is that 2 of the cop killers were vets with PTSD. 20 vets a day commit suicide. Another American clusterfuck.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 18, 2016, 04:54:53 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 04:26:03 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 04:06:31 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:43:48 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 18, 2016, 03:39:03 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:36:00 PM
J70 I understand and agree with how you have framed the causes of the problem.  Correct me here if I'm wrong but you seem to sympathize and possibly even condone the current response of attacks on police?

Really? What have I said that could be interpreted as sypmathizing with or condoning attacks on police?
You're aggressively defending the BLM movement

This is the biggest achievement of the NRA and GOP in my view.

Anyone that dares to question them or their followers is the enemy. You are ISIS, BLM, Al Queda and cop-killer, all rolled into one. All because you oppose the guns laws and rogue cops shooting innocent people.
Muppet i disagree and believe the same assertion can be made on both sides. You watch a youtube video of a woman calmly broadcasting her boyfriend bleeding out in the car beside her and already label him as innocent...because facebook says so...

You'll find a lot of typical republican voters voting for an independent candidate this year. I said at the last election a 3rd party is needed as Red is becoming Purple...

I am labelling him as innocent because that is the LAW in your country, not because of FaceBook.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 04:59:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 04:54:53 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 04:26:03 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 04:06:31 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:43:48 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 18, 2016, 03:39:03 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:36:00 PM
J70 I understand and agree with how you have framed the causes of the problem.  Correct me here if I'm wrong but you seem to sympathize and possibly even condone the current response of attacks on police?

Really? What have I said that could be interpreted as sypmathizing with or condoning attacks on police?
You're aggressively defending the BLM movement

This is the biggest achievement of the NRA and GOP in my view.

Anyone that dares to question them or their followers is the enemy. You are ISIS, BLM, Al Queda and cop-killer, all rolled into one. All because you oppose the guns laws and rogue cops shooting innocent people.
Muppet i disagree and believe the same assertion can be made on both sides. You watch a youtube video of a woman calmly broadcasting her boyfriend bleeding out in the car beside her and already label him as innocent...because facebook says so...

You'll find a lot of typical republican voters voting for an independent candidate this year. I said at the last election a 3rd party is needed as Red is becoming Purple...

I am labelling him as innocent because that is the LAW in your country, not because of FaceBook.

Its the country I live in. Ireland is mine. Stephen is my name and it's mine.. ;)

But in your labeling and in your understanding of the situation in your vast experience in law enforcement you have determined that the cop who shot him was wrong.
If you are a cop and a suspect reaches for something in the car that may or may not be a gun - what do you do? The suspect told the cop he had a gun. In the video it looks like it might be on his lap - what do you do?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 18, 2016, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 04:59:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 04:54:53 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 04:26:03 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 04:06:31 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:43:48 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 18, 2016, 03:39:03 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:36:00 PM
J70 I understand and agree with how you have framed the causes of the problem.  Correct me here if I'm wrong but you seem to sympathize and possibly even condone the current response of attacks on police?

Really? What have I said that could be interpreted as sypmathizing with or condoning attacks on police?
You're aggressively defending the BLM movement

This is the biggest achievement of the NRA and GOP in my view.

Anyone that dares to question them or their followers is the enemy. You are ISIS, BLM, Al Queda and cop-killer, all rolled into one. All because you oppose the guns laws and rogue cops shooting innocent people.
Muppet i disagree and believe the same assertion can be made on both sides. You watch a youtube video of a woman calmly broadcasting her boyfriend bleeding out in the car beside her and already label him as innocent...because facebook says so...

You'll find a lot of typical republican voters voting for an independent candidate this year. I said at the last election a 3rd party is needed as Red is becoming Purple...

I am labelling him as innocent because that is the LAW in your country, not because of FaceBook.

Its the country I live in. Ireland is mine. Stephen is my name and it's mine.. ;)

But in your labeling and in your understanding of the situation in your vast experience in law enforcement you have determined that the cop who shot him was wrong.
If you are a cop and a suspect reaches for something in the car that may or may not be a gun - what do you do? The suspect told the cop he had a gun. In the video it looks like it might be on his lap - what do you do?

You get the benefit of the doubt of arguing for the cop, while dismissing any of the video as 'FaceBook told you' and sneering at the woman who still had a (literally) smoking gun being pointed at her. You also sneer at my vast experience in law enforcement. You don't want to debate.

You want everyone to believe that it was ok for that cop to shoot that man, and move on, nothing to see here. And then you are astonished when society doesn't move on.






Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on July 18, 2016, 05:10:05 PM
Whitey,
Why is that interesting?
Pistorius?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 05:20:31 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 04:59:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 04:54:53 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 04:26:03 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 04:06:31 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:43:48 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 18, 2016, 03:39:03 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 03:36:00 PM
J70 I understand and agree with how you have framed the causes of the problem.  Correct me here if I'm wrong but you seem to sympathize and possibly even condone the current response of attacks on police?

Really? What have I said that could be interpreted as sypmathizing with or condoning attacks on police?
You're aggressively defending the BLM movement

This is the biggest achievement of the NRA and GOP in my view.

Anyone that dares to question them or their followers is the enemy. You are ISIS, BLM, Al Queda and cop-killer, all rolled into one. All because you oppose the guns laws and rogue cops shooting innocent people.
Muppet i disagree and believe the same assertion can be made on both sides. You watch a youtube video of a woman calmly broadcasting her boyfriend bleeding out in the car beside her and already label him as innocent...because facebook says so...

You'll find a lot of typical republican voters voting for an independent candidate this year. I said at the last election a 3rd party is needed as Red is becoming Purple...

I am labelling him as innocent because that is the LAW in your country, not because of FaceBook.

Its the country I live in. Ireland is mine. Stephen is my name and it's mine.. ;)

But in your labeling and in your understanding of the situation in your vast experience in law enforcement you have determined that the cop who shot him was wrong.
If you are a cop and a suspect reaches for something in the car that may or may not be a gun - what do you do? The suspect told the cop he had a gun. In the video it looks like it might be on his lap - what do you do?

You get the benefit of the doubt of arguing for the cop, while dismissing any of the video as 'FaceBook told you' and sneering at the woman who still had a (literally) smoking gun being pointed at her. You also sneer at my vast experience in law enforcement. You don't want to debate.

You want everyone to believe that it was ok for that cop to shoot that man, and move on, nothing to see here. And then you are astonished when society doesn't move on.
This isn't a debate its a discussion.  I'd like to discuss and get your answer please? What do you do? Shoot or be shot?
What did you make of the cool and calm girlfriend who didn't once look back at her 4yr old child in the back seat but calmly talked through the situation...then fast forward to the news reports the next day and she's had her teeth whitened, extensions added to her hair and is an emotional wreck....then the horse drawn carriage with her draped over it..... whats that all about? this transformation?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 18, 2016, 05:20:47 PM
Declan posted a good article on poverty in the US a while back.

Here is another, this time about a white woman so we can avoid accusations of racism or counter-racism for the moment.

https://www.thenation.com/article/town-turned-poverty-prison-sentence/ (https://www.thenation.com/article/town-turned-poverty-prison-sentence/)

Basically once the very poor get in debt to the city/county/state (say a parking ticket) they are often ruined by a never ending cycle of fines, then they are jailed for non-payment of fines (without court), they accrue a charge for each day in jail, followed by loss of employment because they are in jail and when they walk out, a new bigger debt to the city/county/state and it begins again.

The police, through no fault of their own, are instructed by the city/county/state authorities to extract this debt and this puts them disproportionally into conflict with the poor. The poor, in turn, are terrified of the cops because a broken tail-light can end your normal life.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 18, 2016, 05:23:02 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 05:20:31 PM
This isn't a debate its a discussion.  I'd like to discuss and get your answer please? What do you do? Shoot or be shot?
What did you make of the cool and calm girlfriend who didn't once look back at her 4yr old child in the back seat but calmly talked through the situation...then fast forward to the news reports the next day and she's had her teeth whitened, extensions added to her hair and is an emotional wreck....then the horse drawn carriage with her draped over it..... whats that all about? this transformation?

If you are a cop and a suspect reaches for something in the car that may or may not be a gun - what do you do?

Ok let's start this properly.

Firstly, why are you calling him a 'suspect'? What is he suspected of doing?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 05:36:18 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 05:23:02 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 05:20:31 PM
This isn't a debate its a discussion.  I'd like to discuss and get your answer please? What do you do? Shoot or be shot?
What did you make of the cool and calm girlfriend who didn't once look back at her 4yr old child in the back seat but calmly talked through the situation...then fast forward to the news reports the next day and she's had her teeth whitened, extensions added to her hair and is an emotional wreck....then the horse drawn carriage with her draped over it..... whats that all about? this transformation?

If you are a cop and a suspect reaches for something in the car that may or may not be a gun - what do you do?

Ok let's start this properly.

Firstly, why are you calling him a 'suspect'? What is he suspected of doing?
I've read different reports online. The call in from the officer was that he was a possible suspect in an armed robbery and not pulled over for a tail light. But I'll retract the label "suspect" because it doesnt matter.
If you're a cop...approaching a vehicle and the owner of the vehicle knows that you need to have your license and registration ready like all vehicle owners should know in the U.S and the driver says I have a concealed weapons permit.... at this point your gun is drawn and you give instructions to keep your hands on the wheel, fingers separated...standard procedure....guy ignores you and reaches for the object on his lap... what do you do?

second question...your significant other gets shot by a cop...your 4 year old child is in the back seat...your significant other needs medical attention..what do you do?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on July 18, 2016, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 05:36:18 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 05:23:02 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 05:20:31 PM
This isn't a debate its a discussion.  I'd like to discuss and get your answer please? What do you do? Shoot or be shot?
What did you make of the cool and calm girlfriend who didn't once look back at her 4yr old child in the back seat but calmly talked through the situation...then fast forward to the news reports the next day and she's had her teeth whitened, extensions added to her hair and is an emotional wreck....then the horse drawn carriage with her draped over it..... whats that all about? this transformation?

If you are a cop and a suspect reaches for something in the car that may or may not be a gun - what do you do?

Ok let's start this properly.

Firstly, why are you calling him a 'suspect'? What is he suspected of doing?
I've read different reports online. The call in from the officer was that he was a possible suspect in an armed robbery and not pulled over for a tail light. But I'll retract the label "suspect" because it doesnt matter.
If you're a cop...approaching a vehicle and the owner of the vehicle knows that you need to have your license and registration ready like all vehicle owners should know in the U.S and the driver says I have a concealed weapons permit.... at this point your gun is drawn and you give instructions to keep your hands on the wheel, fingers separated...standard procedure....guy ignores you and reaches for the object on his lap... what do you do?

second question...your significant other gets shot by a cop...your 4 year old child is in the back seat...your significant other needs medical attention..what do you do?

You missed out - the gun is still on you and you are being faced by a cop who has already demonstrated he is willing to use lethal force - you keep very calm, for the sake of your child, so that the cop doesn't shoot again. Or perhaps you're already in shock, and you don't even know how you are reacting.

Not a whole pile of Christian compassion there for the plight of this innocent victim, or his traumatised girlfriend.

Let's deal in facts - Castillo was innocent, not just because of the presumption of innocence on which the American system is supposed to be built, but because he had not committed an armed robbery, nor have the police tried to indicate that he was involved in one. He had a gun which was legally held under the laws of the state, he was gainfully employed by the public schools system and if everyone in Ireland was to be shot for penalty points offences, I'd certainly have a few bullet holes in me.

If this was a white man, who was carrying a legally held gun, shot in this manner, the NRA would currently be burning down the Supreme Court. Yet nothing from them.

And your disgusting smears of a woman doing her best to survive an atrocious situation, where she obeyed all instructions given by this pumped up moron, have the same smell about them.

Facebook doesn't tell me what to think - it was merely a tool that provided the world with a window on this horrible crime. The medium is not the message.

If you really think that Black Lives Matter is a dangerous contagion in America, here's the best way of stopping it - make sure the police don't shoot unarmed men. And if you really thought all lives matter (which, by the way, your stated professions of piety on this board dictate that you do) you'd be on the streets with BLM - because i can guarantee you, that's where Jesus would be.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 18, 2016, 06:03:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 05:36:18 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 05:23:02 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 05:20:31 PM
This isn't a debate its a discussion.  I'd like to discuss and get your answer please? What do you do? Shoot or be shot?
What did you make of the cool and calm girlfriend who didn't once look back at her 4yr old child in the back seat but calmly talked through the situation...then fast forward to the news reports the next day and she's had her teeth whitened, extensions added to her hair and is an emotional wreck....then the horse drawn carriage with her draped over it..... whats that all about? this transformation?

If you are a cop and a suspect reaches for something in the car that may or may not be a gun - what do you do?

Ok let's start this properly.

Firstly, why are you calling him a 'suspect'? What is he suspected of doing?
I've read different reports online. The call in from the officer was that he was a possible suspect in an armed robbery and not pulled over for a tail light. But I'll retract the label "suspect" because it doesnt matter.
If you're a cop...approaching a vehicle and the owner of the vehicle knows that you need to have your license and registration ready like all vehicle owners should know in the U.S and the driver says I have a concealed weapons permit.... at this point your gun is drawn and you give instructions to keep your hands on the wheel, fingers separated...standard procedure....guy ignores you and reaches for the object on his lap... what do you do?

second question...your significant other gets shot by a cop...your 4 year old child is in the back seat...your significant other needs medical attention..what do you do?

Firstly, the old dirty laywer trick of 'possible suspect in an armed robbery' .....'but it doesn't matter', I won't allow pass. Put up some evidence of that please.


Question 1:

What? Where are you getting this from? Why is the cop's gun drawn? How can you have your license and registration ready while keeping your hand on the wheel? The woman said in the video that he said to the cop that he had a gun and a permit, that the cop asked him to get the permit and then shot him for moving his hand to get it. The cops own defense now is that he was reaching for the gun, so the cop must have been told he had a gun by someone, logically this verifies that part of the woman's story. i.e. Castile told the cop about the gun.

Wouldn't an armed robber be better off shooting first and ask questions later? Instead of waiting for the cop to be a metre away with a gun pointed at him? If he planned to pull the gun and shoot the cop, why wait until he was an almost certain dead man?

Question 2:

Are you serious? The person beside you has just been shot and the man with the gun is still pointing it into your car? You expect the woman to behave to your version of normal? It is truly astonishing that is it HER behaviour that bothers you in all of this. Not only is her dead partner guilty of, well, no one seems to know, but she must be guilty as well.

I'll tell you what she is guilty of. Recording as much of the murder as possible on the phone. And that is what troubles you. So you are trying to turn her into some sort of criminal as well, because your narrative needs it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 18, 2016, 06:06:45 PM
I would add, what difference does it make that the woman remained calm?

Maybe she was trying to keep calm for the child and not to alarm her dying man. Maybe the makeover meant she wanted to look her best to pay her respects to her dead boyfriend at his funeral (I wore a suit to my father's funeral). Maybe she is a cold, selfish, calculating narcissist who quickly saw that she had an opportunity for fame by filming the aftermath. Who cares?

The issue is the shooting death of her boyfriend and whether or not the police man can justify his actions.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 06:07:49 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on July 18, 2016, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 05:36:18 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 05:23:02 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 05:20:31 PM
This isn't a debate its a discussion.  I'd like to discuss and get your answer please? What do you do? Shoot or be shot?
What did you make of the cool and calm girlfriend who didn't once look back at her 4yr old child in the back seat but calmly talked through the situation...then fast forward to the news reports the next day and she's had her teeth whitened, extensions added to her hair and is an emotional wreck....then the horse drawn carriage with her draped over it..... whats that all about? this transformation?

If you are a cop and a suspect reaches for something in the car that may or may not be a gun - what do you do?

Ok let's start this properly.

Firstly, why are you calling him a 'suspect'? What is he suspected of doing?
I've read different reports online. The call in from the officer was that he was a possible suspect in an armed robbery and not pulled over for a tail light. But I'll retract the label "suspect" because it doesnt matter.
If you're a cop...approaching a vehicle and the owner of the vehicle knows that you need to have your license and registration ready like all vehicle owners should know in the U.S and the driver says I have a concealed weapons permit.... at this point your gun is drawn and you give instructions to keep your hands on the wheel, fingers separated...standard procedure....guy ignores you and reaches for the object on his lap... what do you do?

second question...your significant other gets shot by a cop...your 4 year old child is in the back seat...your significant other needs medical attention..what do you do?

You missed put - the gun is still on you and you are being faced by a cop who has already demonstrated he is willing to use lethal force - you keep very calm, for the sake of your child, so that the cop doesn't shoot again. Or perhaps you're already in shock, and you don't even know how you are reacting.

Not a whole pile of Christian compassion there for the plight of this innocent victim, or his traumatised girlfriend.
My point in this instance was she showed no traces of the emotion that is on show at every opportunity now.  Where was it at the time? For the sake of your child and yourself you reach for another object? I don't agree...

Quote from: easytiger95 on July 18, 2016, 05:54:44 PM
Let's deal in facts - Castillo was innocent, not just because of the presumption of innocence on which the American system is supposed to be built, but because he had not committed an armed robbery, nor have the police tried to indicate that he was involved in one. He had a gun which was legally held under the laws of the state, he was gainfully employed by the public schools system and if everyone in Ireland was to be shot for penalty points offenses, I'd certainly have a few bullet holes in me.
A concealed weapons permit does not allow you go carry a gun around on your lap in a car.  A concealed weapons permit allows a gun to be securely stored in a vehicle with the ammunition separate from the weapon.  The permit makes no difference in this case whatsoever.

Quote from: easytiger95 on July 18, 2016, 05:54:44 PMIf this was a white man, who was carrying a legally held gun, shot in this manner, the NRA would currently be burning down the Supreme Court. Yet nothing from them.
A white cop shot a white boy for driving away not so long ago... there are cops who make bad decisions everyday... in the case of the white boy he drove at the cop and got shot fatally.  Again, in this case, you don't reach for ANYTHING when a cop has a gun on you...

Quote from: easytiger95 on July 18, 2016, 05:54:44 PMAnd your disgusting smears of a woman doing her best to survive an atrocious situation, where she obeyed all instructions given by this pumped up moron, have the same smell about them.

Facebook doesn't tell me what to think - it was merely a tool that provided the world with a window on this horrible crime. The medium is not the message.

If you really think that Black Lives Matter is a dangerous contagion in America, here's the best way of stopping it - make sure the police don't shoot unarmed men. And if you really thought all lives matter (which, by the way, your stated professions of piety on this board dictate that you do) you'd be on the streets with BLM - because you can guarantee that's where Jesus would be.
345,000 black lives are aborted in America every year. All lives matter. At all times. Neither of us know where Jesus would be.  But I do know he wouldn't be condoning shooting cops. He wouldn't be calling for violence.  He wouldn't be inciting hatred.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 18, 2016, 06:10:56 PM
QuoteA concealed weapons permit does not allow you go carry a gun around on your lap in a car.

Could you show evidence that Castille had the gun on his lap please?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 06:14:48 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/philando-castile-police-shooting-cop-thought-he-was-robbery-suspect/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/philando-castile-police-shooting-cop-thought-he-was-robbery-suspect/)
Report from Cops lawyer...

https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/mn-wallet-1.jpg?w=640&h=360 (https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/mn-wallet-1.jpg?w=640&h=360)
If he had the permit it should be in his wallet which is indicated in the picture. He instead reached to his right (image is inverted as being shot on facebook live)....

As a cop do you take the chance?

https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/mn-shooting-handgun-wallet.jpg?w=640&h=446 (https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/mn-shooting-handgun-wallet.jpg?w=640&h=446)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 18, 2016, 06:27:04 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 06:14:48 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/philando-castile-police-shooting-cop-thought-he-was-robbery-suspect/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/philando-castile-police-shooting-cop-thought-he-was-robbery-suspect/)
Report from Cops lawyer...

Seriously?

That is embarrassing Iceman.

Quote

https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/mn-wallet-1.jpg?w=640&h=360 (https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/mn-wallet-1.jpg?w=640&h=360)
If he had the permit it should be in his wallet which is indicated in the picture. He instead reached to his right (image is inverted as being shot on facebook live)....

As a cop do you take the chance?




You said "guy ignores you and reaches for the object on his lap". Now you say he reached to his right and show a picture which doesn't show any object on his lap.



Quote

https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/mn-shooting-handgun-wallet.jpg?w=640&h=446 (https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/mn-shooting-handgun-wallet.jpg?w=640&h=446)

And this takes the biscuit. So the gun, at least according to something called the conservativetreehouse, was on the same side as the wallet all along and was concealed.

Iceman, thank you for convincing me even more than I was before, because there was always the reasonable doubt factor. Your photos lessen that doubt substantially.

And by the way if you are in a job that involves risk, they yes you take the chance, otherwise get a safer job. Shooting black men because you are afraid of them is not a valid position to defend a cop with.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 06:45:43 PM
I withdrew the label "suspect".  I used it originally because there were mentions of it online that the officer suspected him of being the armed robber from an incident 4 days prior in a nearby store.  That person was armed.... Philando Castille was armed. There's something on his lap. You're a cop, right you are scared and you shoot.  I still don't know what you would do in the same situation where you make a choice to shoot or be shot...
It has been ruled preliminarily as a homicide it looks like and the officer has been placed on leave until finalized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpcxN9JsoN8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpcxN9JsoN8)

This didn't happen
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on July 18, 2016, 07:04:18 PM
You're absolutely embarrassing yourself here, as if your attempt to drag the girlfriend into it because of the way she looks wasn't bad enough.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 18, 2016, 07:06:45 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 06:45:43 PM
I withdrew the label "suspect".  I used it originally because there were mentions of it online that the officer suspected him of being the armed robber from an incident 4 days prior in a nearby store.  That person was armed.... Philando Castille was armed. There's something on his lap. You're a cop, right you are scared and you shoot.  I still don't know what you would do in the same situation where you make a choice to shoot or be shot...
It has been ruled preliminarily as a homicide it looks like and the officer has been placed on leave until finalized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpcxN9JsoN8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpcxN9JsoN8)

This didn't happen

The police said he wasn't a suspect for anything. The ONLY one saying that he was a suspect is the cop's lawyer. After the fact. Think about it Iceman. You are a scared cop and you pull over what you think is an armed robber. Do you call it in? Maybe wait for more info, or even back up?

You don't shoot innocent people otherwise you are not fit for the job. It doesn't matter what colour the victim is, you are not fit for the job.

While each case is different, and in itself a statical anomaly, the overall stats show that you are far more likely to be shot dead by a cop if you are black.


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 07:11:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 18, 2016, 07:04:18 PM
You're absolutely embarrassing yourself here, as if your attempt to drag the girlfriend into it because of the way she looks wasn't bad enough.
I questioned the girlfriend's intent. She is making a holy show of her grief when the camera is on and is so distraught she was able to get her hair done, teeth whitened and a makeover...
I think it's all being played up and she is adding to it when she is supposed to be a grieving girlfriend....

@ muppet
I agree with your deductions but I add that there is much more to it - it isn't cut and dry.  There is a real divide here - some say manufactured by politicians - either way its real and getting worse.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 18, 2016, 07:20:06 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 07:11:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 18, 2016, 07:04:18 PM
You're absolutely embarrassing yourself here, as if your attempt to drag the girlfriend into it because of the way she looks wasn't bad enough.
I questioned the girlfriend's intent. She is making a holy show of her grief when the camera is on and is so distraught she was able to get her hair done, teeth whitened and a makeover...
I think it's all being played up and she is adding to it when she is supposed to be a grieving girlfriend....

@ muppet
I agree with your deductions but I add that there is much more to it - it isn't cut and dry.  There is a real divide here - some say manufactured by politicians - either way its real and getting worse.

There sure is a real divide.

I am guessing by US standards your view would be seen by whites as moderate and quite normal, but I would also guess by non-US standards your views are seen as outrageous which might explain the reaction you get here.

Like I said, each individual case has its own circumstances, and thus is a statistical anomaly from which we shouldn't draw conclusions, but the overall trend about black deaths is undeniable. For example you defend the behaviour of the cop religiously but criticise the female passenger's behaviour. One kills someone, but is white, the other kills no one, but is black. See how this looks?



Anyway, I would like to know about the debt-cycle issue. I have only read about it recently and am completely shocked at the way this is handled. I am certain it applies to poor people of any colour but it seems Dickensian in nature and is hard to believe this goes on in the 21st Century, in the world's richest country. Do you know anything about it?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 18, 2016, 07:30:07 PM
It is only fair to point out that case was from 6 years ago.....but it is still fascinating to see how poor people are fined for misdemeanours and then become trapped into a ruinous cycle of debt and jail.

https://www.thenation.com/article/town-turned-poverty-prison-sentence/ (https://www.thenation.com/article/town-turned-poverty-prison-sentence/)

Dana Burdette is a petite white woman with auburn hair and, at 37, a face that looks a decade younger. She has three kids and, like many other Harpersville residents, has worked most of her life in low-wage jobs.

In 2007, she was getting by running errands and taking care of a few older people in the area. On Thanksgiving night, one asked her to drive him to a relative's house for the holiday because he had been drinking.

Near the intersection in Harpersville, an officer pulled Burdette over and ticketed her for driving without a license—a common occurrence in Alabama, where an unpaid ticket can lead to an automatic license suspension. Although the car belonged to the man Burdette was driving, she was also ticketed for an expired tag, no proof of insurance, and possession of drug paraphernalia after the officer found a pipe under the seat. "The car doesn't belong to me, it's not registered to me, none of that had nothing to do with me," Burdette said. "But here I am, in all this trouble."

By January 2007, Harpersville's crowded court had gone from convening once a month to every other week. Those who arrived early could claim a seat among the dozens of chairs in front of the dais; the rest stood as they waited for Judge Larry Ward to call their case.

Ward was the longest-serving judge in Alabama's 274 municipal courts, which are often homespun affairs consisting of a folding table and chairs set up in the town hall. Appointed by the local government, municipal judges are required to have a license to practice law in the state, but they don't need to have much legal experience. Though Ward earned a law degree from the University of Alabama, he never practiced. Instead, he worked as a bond salesman for Morgan Keegan & Company, often selling bonds to the same small towns over whose courts he presided. At one time, he served as a judge in thirteen different municipal courts in central Alabama. He ruled in Harpersville's court for more than a decade.

It was Ward whom Burdette faced that day in Harpersville's town hall. "He made us sign this paper saying we waived legal counsel at the time," she recalled. Burdette didn't think much of it: "I didn't know you could get a lawyer for a traffic ticket and didn't think I needed one—it was a traffic ticket."

Her fines for the three charges added up to $2,922, court papers show. Ward sentenced her—and others who said they couldn't pay their full fines that day—to probation. Once a means of allowing convicted offenders to stay out of jail on the condition of good behavior, probation had now become a court-sanctioned tool for debt collection.

Burdette was sent to the mayor's office, where representatives from JCS processed the new probationers. She signed the paperwork and, several days later, reported to the JCS office in nearby Childersburg, where she paid her probation officer $100. Of that, $45 went toward her fine, $10 toward a one-time "start-up fee," and the last $45 to JCS as a monthly fee for service.

Burdette didn't think she was guilty of all the charges against her, but probation seemed easier than fighting them. She was already struggling to keep working and to take care of her kids and her sick parents; she didn't need one more thing on her plate. By February 2008, however, she was in arrears, prompting JCS to send her a letter stating that if she didn't pay $400 immediately, her probation could be revoked and she could go to jail. Following that letter, at a hearing that Burdette did not attend—she said she never received notification by mail—Judge Ward revoked her probation and signed a warrant for her arrest.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on July 18, 2016, 07:30:38 PM
NYT piece on contemporary debtor's prisons

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/opinion/sunday/is-it-a-crime-to-be-poor.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/opinion/sunday/is-it-a-crime-to-be-poor.html?_r=0)

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 07:32:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 07:20:06 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 07:11:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 18, 2016, 07:04:18 PM
You're absolutely embarrassing yourself here, as if your attempt to drag the girlfriend into it because of the way she looks wasn't bad enough.
I questioned the girlfriend's intent. She is making a holy show of her grief when the camera is on and is so distraught she was able to get her hair done, teeth whitened and a makeover...
I think it's all being played up and she is adding to it when she is supposed to be a grieving girlfriend....

@ muppet
I agree with your deductions but I add that there is much more to it - it isn't cut and dry.  There is a real divide here - some say manufactured by politicians - either way its real and getting worse.

There sure is a real divide.

I am guessing by US standards your view would be seen by whites as moderate and quite normal, but I would also guess by non-US standards your views are seen as outrageous which might explain the reaction you get here.

Like I said, each individual case has its own circumstances, and thus is a statistical anomaly from which we shouldn't draw conclusions, but the overall trend about black deaths is undeniable. For example you defend the behaviour of the cop religiously but criticise the female passenger's behaviour. One kills someone, but is white, the other kills no one, but is black. See how this looks?



Anyway, I would like to know about the debt-cycle issue. I have only read about it recently and am completely shocked at the way this is handled. I am certain it applies to poor people of any colour but it seems Dickensian in nature and is hard to believe this goes on in the 21st Century, in the world's richest country. Do you know anything about it?

I'll freely and ashamedly admit that I have some element of racism now since moving here and living here.  I felt the same though when I lived in Crystal Palace for a year. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 18, 2016, 07:35:25 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 07:32:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 07:20:06 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 07:11:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 18, 2016, 07:04:18 PM
You're absolutely embarrassing yourself here, as if your attempt to drag the girlfriend into it because of the way she looks wasn't bad enough.
I questioned the girlfriend's intent. She is making a holy show of her grief when the camera is on and is so distraught she was able to get her hair done, teeth whitened and a makeover...
I think it's all being played up and she is adding to it when she is supposed to be a grieving girlfriend....

@ muppet
I agree with your deductions but I add that there is much more to it - it isn't cut and dry.  There is a real divide here - some say manufactured by politicians - either way its real and getting worse.

There sure is a real divide.

I am guessing by US standards your view would be seen by whites as moderate and quite normal, but I would also guess by non-US standards your views are seen as outrageous which might explain the reaction you get here.

Like I said, each individual case has its own circumstances, and thus is a statistical anomaly from which we shouldn't draw conclusions, but the overall trend about black deaths is undeniable. For example you defend the behaviour of the cop religiously but criticise the female passenger's behaviour. One kills someone, but is white, the other kills no one, but is black. See how this looks?



Anyway, I would like to know about the debt-cycle issue. I have only read about it recently and am completely shocked at the way this is handled. I am certain it applies to poor people of any colour but it seems Dickensian in nature and is hard to believe this goes on in the 21st Century, in the world's richest country. Do you know anything about it?

I'll freely and ashamedly admit that I have some element of racism now since moving here and living here.  I felt the same though when I lived in Crystal Palace for a year.

Fair play, you are the first I have ever heard admit it.

However, it wouldn't take much to make a hypocrite out of me as well. For example if someone tested my tolerance of travellers to the limit, it mightn't reach the standards I would like.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: ballinaman on July 18, 2016, 10:59:34 PM
@stephengreaves
These armed guys are not police or military, just local guys exercising the second amendment. #tvnews #pmwf5   


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnrJFjpXEAIE8or.jpg:large)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 18, 2016, 11:10:42 PM
They remind me of Orangemen on the 12th.

But with better dress sense.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2016, 11:28:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 18, 2016, 07:20:06 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2016, 07:11:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 18, 2016, 07:04:18 PM
You're absolutely embarrassing yourself here, as if your attempt to drag the girlfriend into it because of the way she looks wasn't bad enough.
I questioned the girlfriend's intent. She is making a holy show of her grief when the camera is on and is so distraught she was able to get her hair done, teeth whitened and a makeover...
I think it's all being played up and she is adding to it when she is supposed to be a grieving girlfriend....

@ muppet
I agree with your deductions but I add that there is much more to it - it isn't cut and dry.  There is a real divide here - some say manufactured by politicians - either way its real and getting worse.

There sure is a real divide.

I am guessing by US standards your view would be seen by whites as moderate and quite normal, but I would also guess by non-US standards your views are seen as outrageous which might explain the reaction you get here.

Like I said, each individual case has its own circumstances, and thus is a statistical anomaly from which we shouldn't draw conclusions, but the overall trend about black deaths is undeniable. For example you defend the behaviour of the cop religiously but criticise the female passenger's behaviour. One kills someone, but is white, the other kills no one, but is black. See how this looks?



Anyway, I would like to know about the debt-cycle issue. I have only read about it recently and am completely shocked at the way this is handled. I am certain it applies to poor people of any colour but it seems Dickensian in nature and is hard to believe this goes on in the 21st Century, in the world's richest country. Do you know anything about it?
Muppet the US is very backward when it comes to social justice/worker protection. Paid holidays and pay for days taken off sick are taken for grated in Europe but absent in a lot of US workplaces. It is even worse now with the gig economy 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBRrCY5uhWY
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on July 19, 2016, 08:21:02 AM
Two teenagers playing Pokemon Go in the middle of the night have been shot at after being mistaken for burglars.

A 19-year-old man and his 16-year-old friend were playing the game in a car in Florida at around 1.30am when an armed man walked out of his house and opened fire on the vehicle.

Immediately before the shooting, one of the players asked the other: "Did you catch him?"

According to Flagler County Sheriff's Office, the other replied: "Yeah, did you?"

As soon as they heard gunshots, the teenagers drove off.

It was only in the morning that one of their mothers discovered bullet holes in the rear tyre, hubcap and fender. She immediately reported the shooting to the sheriff's office.

According to a statement from Flagler County Sheriff's Office, the homeowner "was awakened by a loud noise coming from outside of his home. He got up from bed and looked outside and noticed a small white car with its brake lights on in the roadway in front of his home."

The resident thought he heard someone say "did you get anything?"

The report claims he "stepped in front of the vehicle and ordered it not to move. The homeowner stated the vehicle accelerated toward him causing him to flee the roadway.

"Because he believed the vehicle was attempting to strike him, he discharged his handgun several times at the vehicle."

After speaking to the teenagers the following morning, it became clear that they were merely playing Pokemon Go.

Flagler County Sheriff's Office has confirmed the "investigation is continuing".

The incident follows a number of Pokemon Go-related injuries. One "hunter" crashed his car into a tree, while two others fell off a cliff in the hunt for creatures
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on July 19, 2016, 08:57:36 PM
If those quotes are correct, the shooter's story is going to need some work. 😃
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on July 20, 2016, 12:28:44 PM
Hard to blame a man for shooting Pokemon Go players in fairness. :)

That white 'militia' picture above is scary. That's where I'd be afraid this is going to go. Forget stupid/scared/racist police shooting innocent or guilty black men, when it escalates it will become in some peoples' minds black v white. Not black v white establishment, or black v cops, or even poor v rich. It will become nigger v cracker, us v them, black v white. And when that happens, and you get idiots like the above, it's only a matter of time before white vigilantes start taking shots at black vigilantes, and then all holy hell will break loose, and will make the civil right riots of the 60s look like Diarmuid Connolly v James Dolan.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 20, 2016, 01:09:12 PM
The fact that vets were responsible for 2 doses of cop killing is very scary. Vets have a 90% likelihood of divorce on return and most live in poverty . They have worse PTSD and brain trauma than rugby players .
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 20, 2016, 01:37:29 PM
Don't worry, people will thank them for their service wherever they go!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Muck Savage on July 21, 2016, 05:50:04 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 18, 2016, 02:06:27 PM
Quote from: Muck Savage on July 18, 2016, 07:24:36 AM
BLM have been running an anti-cop campaign for the past two years. They may not have been directly involved in the cop shootings in the past week but they have encouraged the hate against the police which has resulted in 8 police deaths.
Have they marched about this in the past week? Have they marched about the 25 other Black men shot dead in the past week by other black men? Surly their lives also matter, even the black police officer if they are only going to march for Black lives.
The hate for the police is getting out of hand and even though BLM are not the flame that is doing the damage they are the fan that is stoking it.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are right and that BLM is getting out of hand in their rhetoric. That their tactics need to be reevaluated. Let's put that aside for now.

The issue, the reason for their existence, is the treatment of black people by the justice system i.e. the state, in the US. The unarmed men being killed because the police are afraid/prejudiced and overreact. The historical lack of accountability for law enforcement when it happens. The disparate sentences they receive for the same crimes when compared to white people. The harrassment by law enforcement.

Just because you don't like their rhetoric or their tactics doesn't mean that the issues they are concerned with are illegitimate.

And on the black on black crime - do you seriously think that all these black people don't give a bollocks about what is happening in their own neighbourhoods? That there are no movements out there among black communities trying to address the poverty and social issues which drive the high crime rates in their areas?

Some of there rhetoric talks about Killing or Dead cops, how does that help? They are increasing tension between sides and increasing hatred towards the cops, that is not the way to fix problems. 8 cops dead, more injured and even more shot at across the country is not going address it.

Lets say you are a cop for a day, not any way racist, and someone starts shooting at you while you protect a group of protesters protesting against you. Would you be OK with this? Going into areas where people hate you because of your skin color.
Yes there are a few bad apples in the police force but these are very few. Taking it out on the rest of them is not the way to get people behind you.

Quote from: J70 on July 18, 2016, 02:06:27 PM
Does the right really give a shit about black poverty and crime rates in inner cities, or are their "concerns" just a red herring to try to delegitimize the issues on which BLM is based?
You're going to have to go find someone in the Right to answer that question.

I believe it's wrong to see police shooting innocent Black men but protesters shouting about "Killing" "Shooting" cops is not the way to fix this. Why are they being shot? Is it really racism? Is it improper training? Is it education? Dialog needs to start to sort this out, I don't see too many meetings or conferences to try address the issue being publicized.


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 21, 2016, 02:56:02 PM
No argument from me that they should never be calling for violence against cops. I've said so on several occasions on this thread.

As for why, I'd say it's all those reasons: fear on account of prejudice; unwillingness to give the benefit of the doubt on account of prejudice;  poor training; poor selection of candidates... depends on person/situation.

And on measures to address these problems, a number of police forces have already begun to implement reforms and outreach, with some success. Those include Dallas.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on November 28, 2016, 05:22:58 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38136658 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38136658)

Ohio State University this time......

Hopefully only the gunman is dead.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on November 28, 2016, 08:06:12 PM
A legal resident 18 year old Somali native is the shooter . More fodder for trump and supporters .
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 28, 2016, 08:14:19 PM
Quote from: Gmac on November 28, 2016, 08:06:12 PM
A legal resident 18 year old Somali native is the shooter . More fodder for trump and supporters .

True.

And if he was a garden variety American sociopath who ended up on a killing spree, there would hardly be a word.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2016, 08:21:19 PM
Guns in the US are like loyalists singing about Fenians. The past is a prison

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4jxtfJ-RKM
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 28, 2016, 08:37:29 PM
Quote from: Gmac on November 28, 2016, 08:06:12 PM
A legal resident 18 year old Somali native is the shooter . More fodder for trump and supporters .

Cop responded and killed him within a minute-wow, that's impressive by anyone's standards

Should be interesting to hear what vetting occurred prior to him being let in just 2 years ago. Not that I agree with it, but it's a big "told you so" for Trump and his supporters
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2016, 09:14:14 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 28, 2016, 08:37:29 PM
Quote from: Gmac on November 28, 2016, 08:06:12 PM
A legal resident 18 year old Somali native is the shooter . More fodder for trump and supporters .

Cop responded and killed him within a minute-wow, that's impressive by anyone's standards

Should be interesting to hear what vetting occurred prior to him being let in just 2 years ago. Not that I agree with it, but it's a big "told you so" for Trump and his supporters
It's funny what makes it into the narrative

129,000 vet suicides since 1999
How many Americans were killed by Muslim terrsts over the same period? Excluding the Saudi 911 job less than 100
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on November 28, 2016, 10:14:21 PM
In this case I believe the only fatality was the nutter who incidentally did not shoot anyone. Think he drovee into some people and then started stabbing folk with a butchers knife. That's what I read - has anyone else any evidence to the contrary.

You see - when the crazy person doesn't have a gun less people die. Who'd have thunk it??!!!

The brother works in another university not far from there. He's sound but there were a few hurried texts right enough.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 28, 2016, 10:20:13 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 28, 2016, 10:14:21 PM
In this case I believe the only fatality was the nutter who incidentally did not shoot anyone. Think he drovee into some people and then started stabbing folk with a butchers knife. That's what I read - has anyone else any evidence to the contrary.

You see - when the crazy person doesn't have a gun less people die. Who'd have thunk it??!!!

The brother works in another university not far from there. He's sound but there were a few hurried texts right enough.

Good point

I'm curious to know who was paying his tuition.

When that same question was asked of UMASS  in relation to the Marathon bomber, they sealed the records.  Taxpayers have a right to know
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trileacman on November 29, 2016, 12:20:22 AM
Quote from: whitey on November 28, 2016, 10:20:13 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 28, 2016, 10:14:21 PM
In this case I believe the only fatality was the nutter who incidentally did not shoot anyone. Think he drovee into some people and then started stabbing folk with a butchers knife. That's what I read - has anyone else any evidence to the contrary.

You see - when the crazy person doesn't have a gun less people die. Who'd have thunk it??!!!

The brother works in another university not far from there. He's sound but there were a few hurried texts right enough.

Good point

I'm curious to know who was paying his tuition.

When that same question was asked of UMASS  in relation to the Marathon bomber, they sealed the records.  Taxpayers have a right to know

I'd say it's that Kenyan Muslim Obama paying for it. I hear he's hiding terror cells in your coffee. The p***k.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 29, 2016, 01:02:49 AM
Quote from: whitey on November 28, 2016, 08:37:29 PM
Quote from: Gmac on November 28, 2016, 08:06:12 PM
A legal resident 18 year old Somali native is the shooter . More fodder for trump and supporters .

Cop responded and killed him within a minute-wow, that's impressive by anyone's standards

Should be interesting to hear what vetting occurred prior to him being let in just 2 years ago. Not that I agree with it, but it's a big "told you so" for Trump and his supporters

So you're assuming that most people aren't as smart as you? ;)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on November 29, 2016, 01:23:31 AM
Quote from: Gmac on November 28, 2016, 08:06:12 PM
A legal resident 18 year old Somali native is the shooter . More fodder for trump and supporters .
[/quote
So let me get this straight, an 18 year old radical Islamic terrorist attacks American citizens and it is Trumps fault? With all due disrespect, go f**k yourself you absolute clampett!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on November 29, 2016, 01:29:10 AM
Quote from: stew on November 29, 2016, 01:23:31 AM
Quote from: Gmac on November 28, 2016, 08:06:12 PM
A legal resident 18 year old Somali native is the shooter . More fodder for trump and supporters .
[/quote
So let me get this straight, an 18 year old radical Islamic terrorist attacks American citizens and it is Trumps fault? With all due disrespect, go f**k yourself you absolute clampett!
you are a clown of the highest order where did I say it's trumps fault ?
I said its fodder for him and his supporters is that true or false ?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on November 29, 2016, 09:00:42 AM
Quote from: Gmac on November 29, 2016, 01:29:10 AM
Quote from: stew on November 29, 2016, 01:23:31 AM
Quote from: Gmac on November 28, 2016, 08:06:12 PM
A legal resident 18 year old Somali native is the shooter . More fodder for trump and supporters .
[/quote
So let me get this straight, an 18 year old radical Islamic terrorist attacks American citizens and it is Trumps fault? With all due disrespect, go f**k yourself you absolute clampett!
you are a clown of the highest order where did I say it's trumps fault ?
I said its fodder for him and his supporters is that true or false ?

Why mention Trump at all, in your zeal to demonise Trump you did not even have the decency to sympathize with the 11 victims, not you, straight to Trump for you mate!

I seriously doubt Trump and his supporters want attacks by Muslims on American soil.

This attack had nothing to do whatsoever with Trump and his support so why bring him into the equation I wonder?

Since Trump would rather American citizens not be attacked by radical scum with a car and a knife the answer to your inane question is no, it is not fodder for them since they would rather events like this not happen, they have a mandate from the people to govern, fodder is the last thing they need son.

Cheerio. ::)

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on November 29, 2016, 01:25:47 PM
Seanie makes the best point of the lot. The NRA would want this lunatic to have access to semi-automatic weapons. Thankfully he wasn't carrying one yesterday.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on November 29, 2016, 02:51:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 01:25:47 PM
Seanie makes the best point of the lot. The NRA would want this lunatic to have access to semi-automatic weapons. Thankfully he wasn't carrying one yesterday.
[/quote

Sadly you know that's coming as is animals driving trucks, busses etc into pedestrians, the country is effed up.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: dec on November 29, 2016, 03:21:59 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 28, 2016, 10:20:13 PM
I'm curious to know who was paying his tuition.

When that same question was asked of UMASS  in relation to the Marathon bomber, they sealed the records. Taxpayers have a right to know

Do you have any evidence of this?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on November 29, 2016, 03:31:55 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 01:25:47 PM
Seanie makes the best point of the lot. The NRA would want this lunatic to have access to semi-automatic weapons. Thankfully he wasn't carrying one yesterday.

Those bastards in the NRA have described Trumps election as a great opportunity for them to go on the offense. I don't know how they could be more "offensive" but I guess we're going to find out.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 29, 2016, 04:10:07 PM
Quote from: dec on November 29, 2016, 03:21:59 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 28, 2016, 10:20:13 PM
I'm curious to know who was paying his tuition.

When that same question was asked of UMASS  in relation to the Marathon bomber, they sealed the records. Taxpayers have a right to know

Do you have any evidence of this?

It was all over the paper and news at the time....I will see if I can find a link.

(Also, elder statesman of the Democratic Party, Mike Dukakis, testified as a character witness for a friend of the bomber who lied to the FBI)

http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/herald_bulldog/2013/05/feds_block_umass_from_releasing_alleged_bombers
I stand corrected......Feds sealed with the records not UMASS.....
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 29, 2016, 04:50:51 PM
Quote from: stew on November 29, 2016, 09:00:42 AM
Quote from: Gmac on November 29, 2016, 01:29:10 AM
Quote from: stew on November 29, 2016, 01:23:31 AM
Quote from: Gmac on November 28, 2016, 08:06:12 PM
A legal resident 18 year old Somali native is the shooter . More fodder for trump and supporters .
So let me get this straight, an 18 year old radical Islamic terrorist attacks American citizens and it is Trumps fault? With all due disrespect, go f**k yourself you absolute clampett!
you are a clown of the highest order where did I say it's trumps fault ?
I said its fodder for him and his supporters is that true or false ?

Why mention Trump at all, in your zeal to demonise Trump you did not even have the decency to sympathize with the 11 victims, not you, straight to Trump for you mate!

I seriously doubt Trump and his supporters want attacks by Muslims on American soil.

This attack had nothing to do whatsoever with Trump and his support so why bring him into the equation I wonder?

Since Trump would rather American citizens not be attacked by radical scum with a car and a knife the answer to your inane question is no, it is not fodder for them since they would rather events like this not happen, they have a mandate from the people to govern, fodder is the last thing they need son.

Cheerio. ::)

Stew, in fairness to Gmac, I think he's on YOUR side, politically, at least judging by his posts over the past few months.

And his point is valid. See for example, Trumps ridiculous tweets on the San Bernadino and Orlando terrorist massacres.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 29, 2016, 04:54:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 04:10:07 PM
Quote from: dec on November 29, 2016, 03:21:59 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 28, 2016, 10:20:13 PM
I'm curious to know who was paying his tuition.

When that same question was asked of UMASS  in relation to the Marathon bomber, they sealed the records. Taxpayers have a right to know

Do you have any evidence of this?

It was all over the paper and news at the time....I will see if I can find a link.

(Also, elder statesman of the Democratic Party, Mike Dukakis, testified as a character witness for a friend of the bomber who lied to the FBI)

http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/herald_bulldog/2013/05/feds_block_umass_from_releasing_alleged_bombers
I stand corrected......Feds sealed with the records not UMASS.....

Let's say this dude and the marathon bombers WERE getting free tuition or whatever... what exactly is the significance of that and what are the implications?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Denn Forever on November 29, 2016, 05:08:44 PM
I like Jim jeffries opinion on  it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8sED2Mj9n0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 29, 2016, 05:37:21 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 04:54:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 04:10:07 PM
Quote from: dec on November 29, 2016, 03:21:59 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 28, 2016, 10:20:13 PM
I'm curious to know who was paying his tuition.

When that same question was asked of UMASS  in relation to the Marathon bomber, they sealed the records. Taxpayers have a right to know

Do you have any evidence of this?

It was all over the paper and news at the time....I will see if I can find a link.

(Also, elder statesman of the Democratic Party, Mike Dukakis, testified as a character witness for a friend of the bomber who lied to the FBI)

http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/herald_bulldog/2013/05/feds_block_umass_from_releasing_alleged_bombers
I stand corrected......Feds sealed with the records not UMASS.....

Let's say this dude and the marathon bombers WERE getting free tuition or whatever... what exactly is the significance of that and what are the implications?

I honestly don't know, but I'd ask the people who are humping it 60 hours a week whose premiums have doubled and their coverage halved.  You know, the kind of law abiding taxpayer who is really struggling to put their kids through college.  The kind of people who are swing voters in swing states
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on November 29, 2016, 05:54:13 PM
I don't think they *know* either. But they sure as shit have an opinion. And those votes count.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 29, 2016, 05:57:00 PM
Quote from: heganboy on November 29, 2016, 05:54:13 PM
I don't think they *know* either. But they sure as shit have an opinion. And those votes count.


Exactly....and J70s snide, condescending, rhetorical question is exactly the elitist attitude that cost Hillary the election
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: dec on November 29, 2016, 07:18:25 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 05:37:21 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 04:54:43 PM

Let's say this dude and the marathon bombers WERE getting free tuition or whatever... what exactly is the significance of that and what are the implications?


I honestly don't know,...


So then why did you say "I'm curious to know who was paying his tuition."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 29, 2016, 07:30:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 05:57:00 PM
Quote from: heganboy on November 29, 2016, 05:54:13 PM
I don't think they *know* either. But they sure as shit have an opinion. And those votes count.


Exactly....and J70s snide, condescending, rhetorical question is exactly the elitist attitude that cost Hillary the election

How the f**k was that question snide or condescending or elitist? It's a perfectly valid question.

This is where you discredit yourself, with these vague, nebulous, invalid charges of elitism which don't stand up to scrutiny.

Put it this way, what steps do you advocate to prevent someone who has given no indications of being anything out of the ordinary, but who in future, might be radicalized, from availing of the same entitlements as anyone else?

And where do you draw the line? Is it only Muslims? What about the Asian kid who killed 30 odd people in Virginia Tech ten years ago? Should all Asian loners who have trouble getting girls be put in the suspect, deny-them-entitlements, just in case we later piss off the Trump supporters, category?

Can we use this logic as an argument for gun control? I mean, some white dude might go postal?

It's easy to point and shout after the fact, but short of treating groups, en masse, as criminally or terroristically inclined, there is no legal or moral basis for denying someone their due benefits and rights without cause.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 29, 2016, 07:40:12 PM
Quote from: heganboy on November 29, 2016, 05:54:13 PM
I don't think they *know* either. But they sure as shit have an opinion. And those votes count.

So we should ignore laws and rights and due process?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 29, 2016, 08:11:54 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 07:30:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 05:57:00 PM
Quote from: heganboy on November 29, 2016, 05:54:13 PM
I don't think they *know* either. But they sure as shit have an opinion. And those votes count.


Exactly....and J70s snide, condescending, rhetorical question is exactly the elitist attitude that cost Hillary the election

How the f**k was that question snide or condescending or elitist? It's a perfectly valid question.

This is where you discredit yourself, with these vague, nebulous, invalid charges of elitism which don't stand up to scrutiny.

Put it this way, what steps do you advocate to prevent someone who has given no indications of being anything out of the ordinary, but who in future, might be radicalized, from availing of the same entitlements as anyone else?

And where do you draw the line? Is it only Muslims? What about the Asian kid who killed 30 odd people in Virginia Tech ten years ago? Should all Asian loners who have trouble getting girls be put in the suspect, deny-them-entitlements, just in case we later piss off the Trump supporters, category?

Can we use this logic as an argument for gun control? I mean, some white dude might go postal?

It's easy to point and shout after the fact, but short of treating groups, en masse, as criminally or terroristically inclined, there is no legal or moral basis for denying someone their due benefits and rights without cause.

Lol....you don't even realize you're doing it.....that's the funny part.

When people asked the question in MA, in reference to the Marathon bomber, they were essentially told to shut the fvck up and sit the fvck down and mind their own fvckin business.  Well as a taxpayer it is my business, and my inquiry (re the Marathon bomber) had nothing to do with his religion.....it had to do with how someone who wasn't attending class, not submitting assignments and receiving failing grades was allowed to re-enrol all the while qualify for financial aid.   I'm not an islamophobe or a fascist for wanting to know


As it pertains to the Somali, I want to know how someone who has been in the country as a refugee for about 2 years somehow qualifies for financial aid (assuming he got it) when people who've been paying taxes their whole lives get fvck all. I'd be asking the question, regardless of his religion and regardless of where he came from. But straight out of the Democratic Party playbook you have to assume my motivations are fascist or islamophobic
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 29, 2016, 09:07:37 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

Go ahead and show me, point by point, how and where I made ANY assumptions about you or talked down to you in that post where I asked the question about the significance and implications of whether the Boston bombers or the Somali guy had received free tuition.

Go ahead whitey. It's apparently so clear to you. I'll wait...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on November 29, 2016, 09:10:36 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 04:50:51 PM
Quote from: stew on November 29, 2016, 09:00:42 AM
Quote from: Gmac on November 29, 2016, 01:29:10 AM
Quote from: stew on November 29, 2016, 01:23:31 AM
Quote from: Gmac on November 28, 2016, 08:06:12 PM
A legal resident 18 year old Somali native is the shooter . More fodder for trump and supporters .
So let me get this straight, an 18 year old radical Islamic terrorist attacks American citizens and it is Trumps fault? With all due disrespect, go f**k yourself you absolute clampett!
you are a clown of the highest order where did I say it's trumps fault ?
I said its fodder for him and his supporters is that true or false ?

Why mention Trump at all, in your zeal to demonise Trump you did not even have the decency to sympathize with the 11 victims, not you, straight to Trump for you mate!

I seriously doubt Trump and his supporters want attacks by Muslims on American soil.

This attack had nothing to do whatsoever with Trump and his support so why bring him into the equation I wonder?

Since Trump would rather American citizens not be attacked by radical scum with a car and a knife the answer to your inane question is no, it is not fodder for them since they would rather events like this not happen, they have a mandate from the people to govern, fodder is the last thing they need son.

Cheerio. ::)

Stew, in fairness to Gmac, I think he's on YOUR side, politically, at least judging by his posts over the past few months.

And his point is valid. See for example, Trumps ridiculous tweets on the San Bernadino and Orlando terrorist massacres.

I do not have a side, I have conservative leanings in the states but am not a republican, I did not want Obama and he has been worse than I thought and I absolutely hate that odious toad  Hillory.

I have no time for Trump but yer man has no business bringing Trump into the equation, I have many friends in the states and some of them are Trump supporters, in no way shape or form do they want Trumps name attached to events like the Somalian **** knifing students.

Anyway, I have moved on, no matter what way you sliced it American is in the shits no matter either one of them got in, at least it will be an interesting ride and there will be no chance of the President going to Prison.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:23:55 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 09:07:37 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

Go ahead and show me, point by point, how and where I made ANY assumptions about you or talked down to you in that post where I asked the question about the significance and implications of whether the Boston bombers or the Somali guy had received free tuition.

Go ahead whitey. It's apparently so clear to you. I'll wait...


Keep digging....your only making it worse. Youre the one who brought his religion into it not me
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on November 29, 2016, 09:29:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 09:07:37 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

Go ahead and show me, point by point, how and where I made ANY assumptions about you or talked down to you in that post where I asked the question about the significance and implications of whether the Boston bombers or the Somali guy had received free tuition.

Go ahead whitey. It's apparently so clear to you. I'll wait...

I think we are all jaded at this point with this process and tempers are short, GMAC, I apologise sir.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 29, 2016, 09:43:25 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:23:55 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 09:07:37 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

Go ahead and show me, point by point, how and where I made ANY assumptions about you or talked down to you in that post where I asked the question about the significance and implications of whether the Boston bombers or the Somali guy had received free tuition.

Go ahead whitey. It's apparently so clear to you. I'll wait...


Keep digging....your only making it worse. Youre the one who brought his religion into it not me

Oh, so you didn't ONLY mention the Boston bombers and the Somali murderer? You were talking about ALL mass murderers?

And by the way, I made NO mention of religion at all in the post to which you took such exception and started your idiotic accusations.

Here it is again, just in case you're confused:

Let's say this dude and the marathon bombers WERE getting free tuition or whatever... what exactly is the significance of that and what are the implications?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:26:32 PM
Your seriously asking me what significance is and implications are there that a newly arrived "refugee" from Somalia (who entered via Pakistan) just yesterday tried to commit mass murder in the name of Islam, is attending a public university-most likely on the tax payer dime-

From a fiscal viewpoint, do you not think that taxpayers have a right to know by what process and by whose authority these grants were made? (And I would ask the same question off any "refugee" regardless of where they came from and what their skin color was)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

And Trump is the solution!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:40:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

And Trump is the solution!

I never said that he was the solution...that's one of a number of reasons traditional Democrats were turned off by their own party thus cycle
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 29, 2016, 11:40:59 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:26:32 PM
Your seriously asking me what significance is and implications are there that a newly arrived "refugee" from Somalia (who entered via Pakistan) just yesterday tried to commit mass murder in the name of Islam, is attending a public university-most likely on the tax payer dime-

From a fiscal viewpoint, do you not think that taxpayers have a right to know by what process and by whose authority these grants were made? (And I would ask the same question off any "refugee" regardless of where they came from and what their skin color was)

Of course they have the right to know.

But you also included the Boston bombers, the younger of whom has been in the US since he was a child and was a college student at the time of the bombings. The only common denominator with the Somali guy is that they became radicalized/violent jihadists while they were students (given that you ultimately made such a big deal of my apparent conclusion regarding the religious issue).

Hence my question about what the significance and implications would be. If you are simply talking about someone abusing their free tuition and there being no institutional response, that's one thing. If you are talking only about refugees getting benefits, that's another. If you're talking about profiling someone based on religion or ethnic background or whatever, that is yet another.

So again, what exactly is the significance of these people getting grants/tuition, assuming they did get it?

Is it the fact that they ended up committing mass murder or the fact that they came in, at varyingly distant points in relation to their acts, as refugees and got benefits, regardless of their radicalization, or the fact that there was no response to abuse of benefits?

By the way, YOU said "I honestly don't know" when I first asked about the significance/implications.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:42:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:40:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

And Trump is the solution!

I never said that he was the solution...that's one of a number of reasons traditional Democrats were turned off by their own party thus cycle


....and by extension.....why Trump won the election. A man who only talks down to people. Bigly!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:52:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:42:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:40:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

And Trump is the solution!

I never said that he was the solution...that's one of a number of reasons traditional Democrats were turned off by their own party thus cycle


....and by extension.....why Trump won the election. A man who only talks down to people. Bigly!

While he may not have addressed your concerns, he sure as hell addressed theirs and that's why he won the election (Now whether he can deliver on any of those promises....that's an entirely different question)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on November 30, 2016, 12:14:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:52:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:42:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:40:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

And Trump is the solution!

I never said that he was the solution...that's one of a number of reasons traditional Democrats were turned off by their own party thus cycle


....and by extension.....why Trump won the election. A man who only talks down to people. Bigly!

While he may not have addressed your concerns, he sure as hell addressed theirs and that's why he won the election (Now whether he can deliver on any of those promises....that's an entirely different question)

;D ;D ;D

His campaign was the intellectual equivalent of an email from a Nigerian Princess looking to rest some money in your bank account.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on November 30, 2016, 11:42:38 AM
Anyone can say - "I'm going to create millions of jobs" but frankly anyone who believes that statement when there is no plan at all to make it happen is a fool. Trump won the election due to the Democrats crap candidate and campaign more than anything. He addressed no concerns in any tangible way.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on January 03, 2017, 08:49:17 PM
QuoteA toddler has now shot a person every week in America for two years straight. Yes, you read that correctly.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1QFRueWQAAEpEV.jpg)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on January 06, 2017, 09:32:07 PM
Five people dead and eight injured after a gunman opens fire at Fort Lauderdale airport in Florida

QuoteArmy National Guard tells ABC News alleged perpetrator Esteban Santiago was honorably discharged about four months ago.

QuoteBroward County Commissioner Chip LaMarca says on Facebook the gunman arrived on a flight from Canada with a checked gun in his bag.

Mr LaMarca said the suspect claimed his bag and went to the bathroom to load the gun before coming out and firing.

Senior officials have told ABC News the suspect flew from Anchorage to Minneapolis, and finally to Fort Lauderdale.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Captain Obvious on January 06, 2017, 09:44:23 PM
Is it normal to be allowed to have a gun in your checked baggage? The American airports baggage area has major flaws where anyone could walk in from outside without any security
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on January 06, 2017, 10:15:49 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on January 06, 2017, 09:44:23 PM
Is it normal to be allowed to have a gun in your checked baggage? The American airports baggage area has major flaws where anyone could walk in from outside without any security

Yes.

You're absolutely not getting on the plane with it on your person.

But you have to be aware that your carry permit (if any) might not be valid everywhere you go.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on February 03, 2017, 11:34:23 AM
http://www.thejournal.ie/obama-gun-law-3220416-Feb2017/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 03, 2017, 12:03:57 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 30, 2016, 12:14:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:52:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:42:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:40:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

And Trump is the solution!

I never said that he was the solution...that's one of a number of reasons traditional Democrats were turned off by their own party thus cycle


....and by extension.....why Trump won the election. A man who only talks down to people. Bigly!

While he may not have addressed your concerns, he sure as hell addressed theirs and that's why he won the election (Now whether he can deliver on any of those promises....that's an entirely different question)

;D ;D ;D

His campaign was the intellectual equivalent of an email from a Nigerian Princess looking to rest some money in your bank account.

Keep thinking that way idiot not, lose the next one while you are at it.

He won because he couldn't be bought, he won because he had the balls to call it true, that Clinton should be in prison, that she despised the middle class and because the middle class knew she was for destroying them, you are ignorant and please don't change. )
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on February 03, 2017, 12:05:47 PM
Quote from: stew on February 03, 2017, 12:03:57 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 30, 2016, 12:14:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:52:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:42:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:40:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

And Trump is the solution!

I never said that he was the solution...that's one of a number of reasons traditional Democrats were turned off by their own party thus cycle


....and by extension.....why Trump won the election. A man who only talks down to people. Bigly!

While he may not have addressed your concerns, he sure as hell addressed theirs and that's why he won the election (Now whether he can deliver on any of those promises....that's an entirely different question)

;D ;D ;D

His campaign was the intellectual equivalent of an email from a Nigerian Princess looking to rest some money in your bank account.

Keep thinking that way idiot not, lose the next one while you are at it.

He won because he couldn't be bought, he won because he had the balls to call it true, that Clinton should be in prison, that she despised the middle class and because the middle class knew she was for destroying them, you are ignorant and please don't change. )

True?? Really??!!! Come on stew you're better than that!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: NAG1 on February 03, 2017, 12:15:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 03, 2017, 12:05:47 PM
Quote from: stew on February 03, 2017, 12:03:57 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 30, 2016, 12:14:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:52:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:42:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:40:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

And Trump is the solution!

I never said that he was the solution...that's one of a number of reasons traditional Democrats were turned off by their own party thus cycle


....and by extension.....why Trump won the election. A man who only talks down to people. Bigly!

While he may not have addressed your concerns, he sure as hell addressed theirs and that's why he won the election (Now whether he can deliver on any of those promises....that's an entirely different question)

;D ;D ;D

His campaign was the intellectual equivalent of an email from a Nigerian Princess looking to rest some money in your bank account.

Keep thinking that way idiot not, lose the next one while you are at it.

He won because he couldn't be bought, he won because he had the balls to call it true, that Clinton should be in prison, that she despised the middle class and because the middle class knew she was for destroying them, you are ignorant and please don't change. )

True?? Really??!!! Come on stew you're better than that!!

No he's not SE
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 03, 2017, 01:54:58 PM
Quote from: stew on February 03, 2017, 12:03:57 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 30, 2016, 12:14:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:52:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:42:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:40:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

And Trump is the solution!

I never said that he was the solution...that's one of a number of reasons traditional Democrats were turned off by their own party thus cycle


....and by extension.....why Trump won the election. A man who only talks down to people. Bigly!

While he may not have addressed your concerns, he sure as hell addressed theirs and that's why he won the election (Now whether he can deliver on any of those promises....that's an entirely different question)

;D ;D ;D

His campaign was the intellectual equivalent of an email from a Nigerian Princess looking to rest some money in your bank account.

Keep thinking that way idiot not, lose the next one while you are at it.

He won because he couldn't be bought, he won because he had the balls to call it true, that Clinton should be in prison, that she despised the middle class and because the middle class knew she was for destroying them, you are ignorant and please don't change. )
Couldn't be bought?! Do you seriously believe some tentacle of the Trump organisation won't profit in the long term, either directly or in "gifts", from the 100s of billions of dollars he is promising in infrastructure, energy and military contracts.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on February 03, 2017, 03:26:30 PM
Quote from: stew on February 03, 2017, 12:03:57 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 30, 2016, 12:14:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:52:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:42:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:40:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

And Trump is the solution!

I never said that he was the solution...that's one of a number of reasons traditional Democrats were turned off by their own party thus cycle


....and by extension.....why Trump won the election. A man who only talks down to people. Bigly!

While he may not have addressed your concerns, he sure as hell addressed theirs and that's why he won the election (Now whether he can deliver on any of those promises....that's an entirely different question)

;D ;D ;D

His campaign was the intellectual equivalent of an email from a Nigerian Princess looking to rest some money in your bank account.

Keep thinking that way idiot not, lose the next one while you are at it.

He won because he couldn't be bought, he won because he had the balls to call it true, that Clinton should be in prison, that she despised the middle class and because the middle class knew she was for destroying them, you are ignorant and please don't change. )

One of the most delusional posts I've ever seen here! ;D

Trump, that model of truth telling and ethical behaviour!

And your usual, baseless horseshit about Hillary "hating" the middle class.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on February 07, 2017, 09:47:21 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 03, 2017, 03:26:30 PM
Quote from: stew on February 03, 2017, 12:03:57 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 30, 2016, 12:14:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:52:01 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:42:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:40:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

And Trump is the solution!

I never said that he was the solution...that's one of a number of reasons traditional Democrats were turned off by their own party thus cycle


....and by extension.....why Trump won the election. A man who only talks down to people. Bigly!

While he may not have addressed your concerns, he sure as hell addressed theirs and that's why he won the election (Now whether he can deliver on any of those promises....that's an entirely different question)

;D ;D ;D

His campaign was the intellectual equivalent of an email from a Nigerian Princess looking to rest some money in your bank account.

Keep thinking that way idiot not, lose the next one while you are at it.

He won because he couldn't be bought, he won because he had the balls to call it true, that Clinton should be in prison, that she despised the middle class and because the middle class knew she was for destroying them, you are ignorant and please don't change. )

One of the most delusional posts I've ever seen here! ;D

Trump, that model of truth telling and ethical behaviour!

And your usual, baseless horseshit about Hillary "hating" the middle class.

Only spotting that now. Delusional is being kind. I suppose Trump should be in jail for tweeting from an unsecured android device? Hillary Clinton was a bad candidate and would have been an average to bad President. Trump is potential armageddon with absolutely no plan or ability to deliver on any of his promises. This is the biggest con job in history and only an idiot can't see the difference. The man is a pure bluffer.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Cunny Funt on November 05, 2017, 10:17:12 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41880511

Quote
At least 27 people have been killed after a gunman opened fire at a church during Sunday services, police say.
The attack happened at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, a small town in Wilson County, Texas.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Syferus on November 05, 2017, 10:45:55 PM
It's mental even thinking what someone coming into a church and killing half the congregation would donto a small town here, yet somehow such insanity is almost expected to happen every year at this stage in America.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on November 05, 2017, 11:19:08 PM
Thoughts and prayers to those affected
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Christmas Lights on November 05, 2017, 11:30:05 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on November 05, 2017, 11:19:08 PM
Thoughts and prayers to those affected

Thoughts and prayers really aren't worth a f**k to victims at this stage unless there is a sarcasm element in your post.

Unless America change gun laws, these massacres will continue. It's never going to change though, if sandy hook didn't change anything, then america is a lost cause at this stage.

The fact that in some states a 40 year housewife can legally walk around an Asda carrying a concealed gun as she picks up her apples for the week is absolutely baffling.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: thewobbler on November 05, 2017, 11:33:08 PM
Quote from: Christmas Lights on November 05, 2017, 11:30:05 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on November 05, 2017, 11:19:08 PM
Thoughts and prayers to those affected

Thoughts and prayers really aren't worth a f**k to victims at this stage unless there is a sarcasm element in your post.

Unless America change gun laws, these massacres will continue. It's never going to change though, if sandy hook didn't change anything, then america is a lost cause at this stage.

The fact that in some states a 40 year housewife can legally walk around an Asda carrying a concealed gun as she picks up her apples for the week is absolutely baffling.

It's a sad day when you can't put the victims of an atrocity in your thoughts, without being subject to abuse.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 05, 2017, 11:37:50 PM
Quote from: Christmas Lights on November 05, 2017, 11:30:05 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on November 05, 2017, 11:19:08 PM
Thoughts and prayers to those affected

Thoughts and prayers really aren't worth a f**k to victims at this stage unless there is a sarcasm element in your post.

Unless America change gun laws, these massacres will continue. It's never going to change though, if sandy hook didn't change anything, then america is a lost cause at this stage.

The fact that in some states a 40 year housewife can legally walk around an Asda carrying a concealed gun as she picks up her apples for the week is absolutely baffling.

Prayers....they were in a fvckin church.

Never mind walking around wit a concealed gun, in some olaces you can walk around with an assault weapon in open view. Check out the picture half way down

https://opencarrytexas.wordpress.com/2013/07/02/why-open-carry/

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on November 06, 2017, 01:07:42 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:42:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 11:40:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 29, 2016, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 29, 2016, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 29, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
I didn't assume anything. I asked a fair question. You came back with "I don't know" and bullshit complaints about elitism.

NOW you're adding points and specifics to it that you hadn't before. They may be legitimate questions regarding attendance and continuance of aid, but you're only asking them NOW, so spare me the elitism bollocks and whining. You're the only one making assumptions here. I argued my points logically. If you have a problem with what I wrote, then address it. You don't get change what we were discussing after the fact and then declare me an elitist.


Lol....your default position was that I was an Islamophobe, for having the audacity to asking that question. If your still wondering why working class voters have been fleeing the Democrats in droves....re read your post.  As the Irish American guy down the Eire Pub said....people are sick to death of being talked down to.  The scariest part is that you don't even realize you're doing it.....it's second nature for a Democrat

And Trump is the solution!

I never said that he was the solution...that's one of a number of reasons traditional Democrats were turned off by their own party thus cycle


....and by extension.....why Trump won the election. A man who only talks down to people. Bigly!

He was a bigly donor to the dems for years, he is a democrat in all but name, congratulations kids.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 06, 2017, 01:55:24 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 05, 2017, 11:33:08 PM
Quote from: Christmas Lights on November 05, 2017, 11:30:05 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on November 05, 2017, 11:19:08 PM
Thoughts and prayers to those affected

Thoughts and prayers really aren't worth a f**k to victims at this stage unless there is a sarcasm element in your post.

Unless America change gun laws, these massacres will continue. It's never going to change though, if sandy hook didn't change anything, then america is a lost cause at this stage.

The fact that in some states a 40 year housewife can legally walk around an Asda carrying a concealed gun as she picks up her apples for the week is absolutely baffling.

It's a sad day when you can't put the victims of an atrocity in your thoughts, without being subject to abuse.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the choreography of responses to gun atrocities in the states.

If there is no evidence of Islamic or other terrorism, and the massacre appears to be a case of some disturbed or psychopathic individual getting hold of weapons with few obstacles placed in their way, the standard right wing response is to offer "thoughts and prayers" and "now is not the time to talk about gun policies". Basically useless platitudes and avoidance.

If there is even a sniff of Muslim involvement however...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on November 06, 2017, 03:28:15 AM
Gabe, wobbler, whitey, stew and J70

shite isn't it?

some f**ker kills a bunch of (white) people in a church with an assault weapon, and you can't say the right thing.There is no right thing to say. Anti gun folks are thinking oh my god here comes the thoughts and prayers from the NRA crew and react when you go there. Other folks sit and wait for the Muslim link and when its not there, then the right wing crew have a completely different reaction about not enough good people with guns, but if its a muslim, then immigration is to balme...

you could go on here for years, but minds are made up, logic is out the window, and the "belief crew" take over. The divided country gets more divided, because the "news" and opinion is a cheer leading contest.

So f**k all of you, f**k your so called news, f**k your second amendment, f**k the left and f**k the right. Five year olds who had your christian belief system and were at church worshipping your God are now lying dead because you want the right to bastardize the constitution and to pretend there is an unassailable right (never mind that it is an amendment) for you to have guns. You like guns.

Maybe he/she had a bump stock and you can ban that, because that was the issue, not the gun.

And while I sit here, pissed off and angry vomiting this post, I am aware that it won't matter a jot. Nothing will change, not until rich white people get impacted, and even then, it better be a lot of them, or the needle won't move.So rah rah Donald, Killory to blame, or screw the Republicans, Bernie would have sorted it, but the real truth, which is hard to swallow is, nope none of the political class would have done a thing, because they make too much money from the gun lobby. The money in arms sways the american public because, (augmented by russian investment,) it conveniently divides the country. the right to bear arms is american (say the russians on Facebook)  everyone else can pry it from my cold dead hands(мои холодные мертвые руки)

I miss logic, I miss reason, but most of all, I miss politicians with courage.

26 down, thousands more to follow, Good night, and good luck.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on November 06, 2017, 03:37:11 AM
Quote from: heganboy on November 06, 2017, 03:28:15 AM
Gabe, wobbler, whitey, stew and J70

shite isn't it?

some f**ker kills a bunch of (white) people in a church with an assault weapon, and you can't say the right thing.There is no right thing to say. Anti gun folks are thinking oh my god here comes the thoughts and prayers from the NRA crew and react when you go there. Other folks sit and wait for the Muslim link and when its not there, then the right wing crew have a completely different reaction about not enough good people with guns, but if its a muslim, then immigration is to balme...

you could go on here for years, but minds are made up, logic is out the window, and the "belief crew" take over. The divided country gets more divided, because the "news" and opinion is a cheer leading contest.

So f**k all of you, f**k your so called news, f**k your second amendment, f**k the left and f**k the right. Five year olds who had your christian belief system and were at church worshipping your God are now lying dead because you want the right to bastardize the constitution and to pretend there is an unassailable right (never mind that it is an amendment) for you to have guns. You like guns.

Maybe he/she had a bump stock and you can ban that, because that was the issue, not the gun.

And while I sit here, pissed off and angry vomiting this post, I am aware that it won't matter a jot. Nothing will change, not until rich white people get impacted, and even then, it better be a lot of them, or the needle won't move.So rah rah Donald, Killory to blame, or screw the Republicans, Bernie would have sorted it, but the real truth, which is hard to swallow is, nope none of the political class would have done a thing, because they make too much money from the gun lobby. The money in arms sways the american public because, (augmented by russian investment,) it conveniently divides the country. the right to bear arms is american (say the russians on Facebook)  everyone else can pry it from my cold dead hands(мои холодные мертвые руки)

I miss logic, I miss reason, but most of all, I miss politicians with courage.

26 down, thousands more to follow, Good night, and good luck.


The NRA own Washington, until the Government take on the NRA nothing will change and that will  not happen anytime soon due to the fact the elected tits on the hill are owned by them.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2017, 10:30:51 AM
Another massacre. System problem.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GetOverTheBar on November 06, 2017, 10:34:14 AM
It's actually beyond the point now of thinking, what will provoke change.

I think the only thing, and I really hope this never happens is if there's a casualty of someone linked very high up politically or someone hugely famous or influential that really gets this is order.

This thread will likely continue for decades, it's a massive problem which they just accept.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on November 06, 2017, 10:38:53 AM
Most people share your despair, heganboy, but maybe there's hope (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/taking-on-the-n-r-a), even in a democracy where dollars count more than votes.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 06, 2017, 10:55:55 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on November 06, 2017, 10:34:14 AM
It's actually beyond the point now of thinking, what will provoke change.

I think the only thing, and I really hope this never happens is if there's a casualty of someone linked very high up politically or someone hugely famous or influential that really gets this is order.

This thread will likely continue for decades, it's a massive problem which they just accept.

Two members of the House of Representatives have been shot (thankfully not fatally) in the past seven years.

Famous people have died or been shot over the years, from singers and actors up to presidents.

Half the country is paranoid that the slightest concession to gun control means confiscation. The NRA and the rest of the gun lobby are nothing if not experts at scaremongering their single issue constituency. (The bump stock discussion petered out within days, yet another illustration of the cynicism of the "thoughts and prayers, now is not the time" crowd.)

And there are so many guns out there at this point that, realistically, anyone determined to get hold of one probably can, whether legal or not, with a bit of work. Gun control laws wouldn't be worth a shit without real efforts to rein in the illegal gun trade, get guns off the street, and proper tracking of weapons.

As I said earlier in the week, thank f**k the lowlife who mowed down the people in the bike path along the Hudson didn't put in the extra work it would take in the NYC area to get real guns.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 11:08:15 AM
Time the rest of the World deported all white Americans from their countries.
Those guys are all potential terrorists, come from a Country where people go around carrying guns and kill thousands of their fellow country people annually.
Only a matter of time before they start killing the rest of us.

For the benefit of 6 Cos residents I'd better put one of these in :P
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Denn Forever on November 06, 2017, 11:16:45 AM
When IS the time to talk about it Mr. President?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2017, 11:33:45 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on November 06, 2017, 10:34:14 AM
It's actually beyond the point now of thinking, what will provoke change.

I think the only thing, and I really hope this never happens is if there's a casualty of someone linked very high up politically or someone hugely famous or influential that really gets this is order.

This thread will likely continue for decades, it's a massive problem which they just accept.
Guns are as American as ethnic cleansing.
The NRA only relates to 20% of Americans but it has an emotional hold on the country.
Maybe it will end like Tammany Hall did. That was another all powerful lobby that did what it liked.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 06, 2017, 11:37:30 AM
Quote from: heganboy on November 06, 2017, 03:28:15 AM
Gabe, wobbler, whitey, stew and J70

shite isn't it?

some f**ker kills a bunch of (white) people in a church with an assault weapon, and you can't say the right thing.There is no right thing to say. Anti gun folks are thinking oh my god here comes the thoughts and prayers from the NRA crew and react when you go there. Other folks sit and wait for the Muslim link and when its not there, then the right wing crew have a completely different reaction about not enough good people with guns, but if its a muslim, then immigration is to balme...

you could go on here for years, but minds are made up, logic is out the window, and the "belief crew" take over. The divided country gets more divided, because the "news" and opinion is a cheer leading contest.

So f**k all of you, f**k your so called news, f**k your second amendment, f**k the left and f**k the right. Five year olds who had your christian belief system and were at church worshipping your God are now lying dead because you want the right to bastardize the constitution and to pretend there is an unassailable right (never mind that it is an amendment) for you to have guns. You like guns.

Maybe he/she had a bump stock and you can ban that, because that was the issue, not the gun.

And while I sit here, pissed off and angry vomiting this post, I am aware that it won't matter a jot. Nothing will change, not until rich white people get impacted, and even then, it better be a lot of them, or the needle won't move.So rah rah Donald, Killory to blame, or screw the Republicans, Bernie would have sorted it, but the real truth, which is hard to swallow is, nope none of the political class would have done a thing, because they make too much money from the gun lobby. The money in arms sways the american public because, (augmented by russian investment,) it conveniently divides the country. the right to bear arms is american (say the russians on Facebook)  everyone else can pry it from my cold dead hands(мои холодные мертвые руки)

I miss logic, I miss reason, but most of all, I miss politicians with courage.

26 down, thousands more to follow, Good night, and good luck.


Its never going to change.....its part of the culture.

Seeing as he was taken down by "a good guy with a gun" is only going to add fuel to the rhetoric.

There was a law in place that should have prevented him from getting that gun......whoever didnt follow protocol should be charged as an accesory and face life in jail but that will never happen

I know its a selfish thing to say, but Im glad I live in a state with the lowest gun ownership and gun deaths in the country.   I wouldnt let on inside the door

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on November 06, 2017, 12:24:11 PM
heganboy why do the antigun folks not think "oh my goodness people are dead" first? did you honestly think first of the reaction of pro-gun people?

I was devastated last night when I read about the shooting. In a church of all places. Kids, a pregnant women, it is sickening.
What am I thinking about it all today?

Why did he target a church? was he angry at God like so many are? why did we lose this guy? how did we miss him? why was he left behind? why did he turn away from God? why didnt he ask for help?

there are lots of people in dark dark places - we need to all be lights. whether you believe that light comes from God or not - we need to be the light that shines in to the darkness, in to the dark corners where people like this shooter live, lost in the darkness and suffering and misery, we need to get to people before they decide to massacre a church or jump off a bridge or walk in to traffic

I'm not a pro-gun nut job. I'm a responsible gun owner who enjoys shooting, a bit of hunting and I'm prepared to protect my family if I ever have to.
My prayers go out for the families who have lost loved ones. Those that were killed are likely saints now. Martyred for their faith - hopefully they are praying for all of us now - Lord knows we need it
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:17:10 PM
And how would you feel if the perpetrator was a brown skinned Muslim?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on November 06, 2017, 01:26:58 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:17:10 PM
And how would you feel if the perpetrator was a brown skinned Muslim?

Or a white skinned Muslim?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on November 06, 2017, 01:38:00 PM
a Muslim gunning down a church of Christians has an obvious motive right? this guy in Texas, we can only speculate - but it isn't hard to question his sanity, the darkness in his life, possible mental illness...

a Muslim gunning down a church would point to the radicalization of someone? kill these people and you'll get XYZ... also possible mental illness to believe that...so I would question their sanity too, their darkness....

we find both men in similar places... the house across the street or next door, out getting the groceries, doing your job.... you can be a light wherever you go. that light has a chance of breaking through with anyone.  Like I said you don't have to believe that light comes from God. You can still be a light, still reach people
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: An Watcher on November 06, 2017, 01:45:23 PM
Feel sorry for those who died but couldn't give a toss anymore about the yanks and their gun culture.  Who in their right mind can support the availability of guns when these killings are becoming such a regular occurrence
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Who in their right mind would make a total bag of shit President?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on November 06, 2017, 01:54:04 PM
Was reading that a guy in the church was returning fire and him and another gun man chased him down the highway shooting at him in a car doing 95mph!! Thankfully they didnt kill anyone also... but who brings a gun to church? WTF
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: haranguerer on November 06, 2017, 01:54:50 PM
Everyone, now
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on November 06, 2017, 01:54:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on November 06, 2017, 12:24:11 PM
heganboy why do the antigun folks not think "oh my goodness people are dead" first? did you honestly think first of the reaction of pro-gun people?

I was devastated last night when I read about the shooting. In a church of all places. Kids, a pregnant women, it is sickening.
What am I thinking about it all today?

Why did he target a church? was he angry at God like so many are? why did we lose this guy? how did we miss him? why was he left behind? why did he turn away from God? why didnt he ask for help?

there are lots of people in dark dark places - we need to all be lights. whether you believe that light comes from God or not - we need to be the light that shines in to the darkness, in to the dark corners where people like this shooter live, lost in the darkness and suffering and misery, we need to get to people before they decide to massacre a church or jump off a bridge or walk in to traffic

I'm not a pro-gun nut job. I'm a responsible gun owner who enjoys shooting, a bit of hunting and I'm prepared to protect my family if I ever have to.
My prayers go out for the families who have lost loved ones. Those that were killed are likely saints now. Martyred for their faith - hopefully they are praying for all of us now - Lord knows we need it

We used to think that but now these incidents are becoming so frequent that it's hard not to get angry when it's so clear that the could be radically decreased if a few people in the country showed some f**king balls.

All loss of life is horrible no matter what the cause but when it can be prevented by showing some leadership it should be!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 06, 2017, 01:55:02 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:17:10 PM
And how would you feel if the perpetrator was a brown skinned Muslim?

These are 2 parallel discussions that have no business being lumped together

(1) What do we do about gun violence?

(2) Are we properly vetting people we let into the country?

Do some people react differently when a white person commits an atrocity? Yes

Do others use an incident like last week to paint an entire religion in a negative light? Yes

The world isn't perfect and neither is the United States.   People are predisposed to bias and prejudice based on how they are brought up and what they learn in school. The likes of Fox News have a lot to answer for.   Conversely those in the left are so fvckin afraid to offend anyone the can't call a spade a spade when they need to either.

There are people with guns in this country who have no business having guns, and there are people who were let into this country who have no busness being here.  End of


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 06, 2017, 02:01:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 06, 2017, 01:54:04 PM
Was reading that a guy in the church was returning fire and him and another gun man chased him down the highway shooting at him in a car doing 95mph!! Thankfully they didnt kill anyone also... but who brings a gun to church? WTF

Haha....that's the "good guy with a gun narrative for you".  Complete fvckin madness

My guess is he had the gun out in the car and went out to get it.

If he had it in church and you asked him why, I think he could point make a valid case.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 06, 2017, 02:12:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 06, 2017, 02:01:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 06, 2017, 01:54:04 PM
Was reading that a guy in the church was returning fire and him and another gun man chased him down the highway shooting at him in a car doing 95mph!! Thankfully they didnt kill anyone also... but who brings a gun to church? WTF

Haha....that's the "good guy with a gun narrative for you".  Complete fvckin madness

My guess is he had the gun out in the car and went out to get it.

If he had it in church and you asked him why, I think he could point make a valid case.

Texas AG was saying today that more guns in church will be necessary going forward.

I've no doubt that is what is going to happen.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on November 06, 2017, 02:13:42 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:17:10 PM
And how would you feel if the perpetrator was a brown skinned Muslim?

Would you ever f**k off looking for racism where there is none!  You are a sickening arsehole with that shite, people died in awful circumstances and the best you can do is talk about brown skinned Muslims, not one person on here hoped the assailant was a brown skinned Muslim, they were too busy reeling from the shock that 26 people died at the hands of a maniac in a Church!

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on November 06, 2017, 02:16:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Who in their right mind would make a total bag of shit President?

I know right! Thankfully the American people came to their senses just in time to ensure Hillary never got the job!

I love it that inept gimps hate the fact that Trump beat their champion Hillory, go vote for Weinsteins mate you clown!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2017, 02:55:04 PM
Quote from: stew on November 06, 2017, 02:16:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Who in their right mind would make a total bag of shit President?

I know right! Thankfully the American people came to their senses just in time to ensure Hillary never got the job!

I love it that inept gimps hate the fact that Trump beat their champion Hillory, go vote for Weinsteins mate you clown!
Stew

Trump.is the political equivalent of venereal disease. I wouldn't boast about him. As PJ Ô Rourke observed, Hillary and Trump were both wrong but she was wrong within the normal parameters.

Via FT:
"The intervention of senior administration figures to mitigate or reinterpret impromptu declarations from the Oval Office has become a recurring theme of the six chaotic months of the presidency. The dark threat to North Korea, issued from the clubhouse of the Trump golf resort in New Jersey, illustrated the unpredictability of the commander-in-chief, catching Trump's own advisors unaware with his fiery rhetoric."

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on November 06, 2017, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: stew on November 06, 2017, 02:16:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Who in their right mind would make a total bag of shit President?

I know right! Thankfully the American people came to their senses just in time to ensure Hillary never got the job!

I love it that inept gimps hate the fact that Trump beat their champion Hillory, go vote for Weinsteins mate you clown!

Hillary's inadequacies  dont make Trump  any less of a bag of shit.

Any time he is criticised on here , your go to statement seems to be ' yeah, but Hillary....'
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on November 06, 2017, 03:54:04 PM
read reports this morning that the shooter's former In-laws attended this Church - maybe he was looking for them?
He was a proclaimed Atheist. Quite an angry one it would seem from some of his FB posts and comments from former class mates. I'm not pointing at Atheism as the culprit here before we go down that rabbit hole. A lot of people said he was depressed. He left behind two kids and a ex wife.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 06, 2017, 03:59:35 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on November 06, 2017, 03:54:04 PM
read reports this morning that the shooter's former In-laws attended this Church - maybe he was looking for them?
He was a proclaimed Atheist. Quite an angry one it would seem from some of his FB posts and comments from former class mates. I'm not pointing at Atheism as the culprit here before we go down that rabbit hole. A lot of people said he was depressed. He left behind two kids and a ex wife.

Kicked out the Air Force and jailed for domestic violence, including against his kids.

The Alex Jones universe is proclaiming this as the first wave of the antifa civil war (Saturday being such a letdown for them).
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 05:32:05 PM
Quote from: stew on November 06, 2017, 02:16:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Who in their right mind would make a total bag of shit President?

I know right! Thankfully the American people came to their senses just in time to ensure Hillary never got the job!

I love it that inept gimps hate the fact that Trump beat their champion Hillory, go vote for Weinsteins mate you clown!
Thankfully I don't live in the Nutcase States of America so can't and don't want to vote for any of ye.
Ye really need to give that Country back to its original owners to run it until ye catch up with the rest of the world.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 06, 2017, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: stew on November 06, 2017, 02:16:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Who in their right mind would make a total bag of shit President?

I know right! Thankfully the American people came to their senses just in time to ensure Hillary never got the job!

I love it that inept gimps hate the fact that Trump beat their champion Hillory, go vote for Weinsteins mate you clown!

Hillary's inadequacies  dont make Trump  any less of a bag of shit.

Any time he is criticised on here , your go to statement seems to be ' yeah, but Hillary....'

Yes. False equivalence is the term. We all know Hillary would be poor and unimaginative and possibly a bit bent. Which would be utopia compared to the catastrophe that America and the world is now dealing with. I just hope/pray (delete as applicable) that he is removed from office before he does too much irreversible damage.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Sandy Hill on November 06, 2017, 09:06:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 06, 2017, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: stew on November 06, 2017, 02:16:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Who in their right mind would make a total bag of shit President?

I know right! Thankfully the American people came to their senses just in time to ensure Hillary never got the job!

I love it that inept gimps hate the fact that Trump beat their champion Hillory, go vote for Weinsteins mate you clown!

Hillary's inadequacies  dont make Trump  any less of a bag of shit.

Any time he is criticised on here , your go to statement seems to be ' yeah, but Hillary....'

Yes. False equivalence is the term. We all know Hillary would be poor and unimaginative and possibly a bit bent. Which would be utopia compared to the catastrophe that America and the world is now dealing with. I just hope/pray (delete as applicable) that he is removed from office before he does too much irreversible damage.

+ 100
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 06, 2017, 09:28:04 PM
Quote from: Sandy Hill on November 06, 2017, 09:06:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 06, 2017, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: stew on November 06, 2017, 02:16:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Who in their right mind would make a total bag of shit President?

I know right! Thankfully the American people came to their senses just in time to ensure Hillary never got the job!

I love it that inept gimps hate the fact that Trump beat their champion Hillory, go vote for Weinsteins mate you clown!

Hillary's inadequacies  dont make Trump  any less of a bag of shit.

Any time he is criticised on here , your go to statement seems to be ' yeah, but Hillary....'

Yes. False equivalence is the term. We all know Hillary would be poor and unimaginative and possibly a bit bent. Which would be utopia compared to the catastrophe that America and the world is now dealing with. I just hope/pray (delete as applicable) that he is removed from office before he does too much irreversible damage.

+ 100

You guys are in serious fvcking lala land as it pertains to Hillary

What was in the 30,000 emails that were deleted?  It must have been so bad she rolled the dice and risked her entire candidacy to delete and scrub the server.

The Clintons are seriously bad people.....I'm not in Stew's zip code calling her Killary, but Donna Brazille came out and said she feared for her life

That's fvcked up
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:38:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 06, 2017, 09:28:04 PM
Quote from: Sandy Hill on November 06, 2017, 09:06:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 06, 2017, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: stew on November 06, 2017, 02:16:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Who in their right mind would make a total bag of shit President?

I know right! Thankfully the American people came to their senses just in time to ensure Hillary never got the job!

I love it that inept gimps hate the fact that Trump beat their champion Hillory, go vote for Weinsteins mate you clown!

Hillary's inadequacies  dont make Trump  any less of a bag of shit.

Any time he is criticised on here , your go to statement seems to be ' yeah, but Hillary....'

Yes. False equivalence is the term. We all know Hillary would be poor and unimaginative and possibly a bit bent. Which would be utopia compared to the catastrophe that America and the world is now dealing with. I just hope/pray (delete as applicable) that he is removed from office before he does too much irreversible damage.

+ 100

You guys are in serious fvcking lala land as it pertains to Hillary

What was in the 30,000 emails that were deleted?  It must have been so bad she rolled the dice and risked her entire candidacy to delete and scrub the server.

The Clintons are seriously bad people.....I'm not in Stew's zip code calling her Killary, but Donna Brazille came out and said she feared for her life

That's fvcked up

You know what was in those emails? Sweet f**k all. And everyone knows. If I hear anyone talking about those f**king emails again I'm going to lose it. Total and utter horseshit smokescreen bullshit. Sure the same charges could be fired against Kushner and guess what were in his emails - f**k all as well. Until someone comes up with some evidence or tells us what was in them then its f**king playground stuff.....which is exactly the level that Trump operates at. People that can't separate the levels of badness here really worry me. Look where it has got to? Good job the guy in North Korea has more cop on than Trump or we could all be half blown to Mars by now.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 06, 2017, 09:54:01 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:38:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 06, 2017, 09:28:04 PM
Quote from: Sandy Hill on November 06, 2017, 09:06:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 06, 2017, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: stew on November 06, 2017, 02:16:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Who in their right mind would make a total bag of shit President?

I know right! Thankfully the American people came to their senses just in time to ensure Hillary never got the job!

I love it that inept gimps hate the fact that Trump beat their champion Hillory, go vote for Weinsteins mate you clown!

Hillary's inadequacies  dont make Trump  any less of a bag of shit.

Any time he is criticised on here , your go to statement seems to be ' yeah, but Hillary....'

Yes. False equivalence is the term. We all know Hillary would be poor and unimaginative and possibly a bit bent. Which would be utopia compared to the catastrophe that America and the world is now dealing with. I just hope/pray (delete as applicable) that he is removed from office before he does too much irreversible damage.

+ 100

You guys are in serious fvcking lala land as it pertains to Hillary

What was in the 30,000 emails that were deleted?  It must have been so bad she rolled the dice and risked her entire candidacy to delete and scrub the server.

The Clintons are seriously bad people.....I'm not in Stew's zip code calling her Killary, but Donna Brazille came out and said she feared for her life

That's fvcked up

You know what was in those emails? Sweet f**k all. And everyone knows. If I hear anyone talking about those f**king emails again I'm going to lose it. Total and utter horseshit smokescreen bullshit. Sure the same charges could be fired against Kushner and guess what were in his emails - f**k all as well. Until someone comes up with some evidence or tells us what was in them then its f**king playground stuff.....which is exactly the level that Trump operates at. People that can't separate the levels of badness here really worry me. Look where it has got to? Good job the guy in North Korea has more cop on than Trump or we could all be half blown to Mars by now.

Explain the forensic scrubbing of the server, if you think the emails are a red herring
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on November 07, 2017, 01:05:24 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on November 06, 2017, 03:54:04 PM
read reports this morning that the shooter's former In-laws attended this Church - maybe he was looking for them?
He was a proclaimed Atheist. Quite an angry one it would seem from some of his FB posts and comments from former class mates. I'm not pointing at Atheism as the culprit here before we go down that rabbit hole. A lot of people said he was depressed. He left behind two kids and a ex wife.

Athiesm has nothing to do with bar fuelling his hatred of faith in God, no one else is to blame here, I wonder how much he was on the authorities radar given his propensity for violence against women, his record and his posting of weapons online he should not have had.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2017, 07:50:36 AM
Quote from: stew on November 07, 2017, 01:05:24 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on November 06, 2017, 03:54:04 PM
read reports this morning that the shooter's former In-laws attended this Church - maybe he was looking for them?
He was a proclaimed Atheist. Quite an angry one it would seem from some of his FB posts and comments from former class mates. I'm not pointing at Atheism as the culprit here before we go down that rabbit hole. A lot of people said he was depressed. He left behind two kids and a ex wife.

Athiesm has nothing to do with bar fuelling his hatred of faith in God, no one else is to blame here, I wonder how much he was on the authorities radar given his propensity for violence against women, his record and his posting of weapons online he should not have had.
The authorities can't keep tabs on everyone with mental illness who has a gun. Guns have to be regulated
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on November 07, 2017, 08:32:38 AM
One of Trumps first acts as president was to repeal restrictions on people with mental health issues obtaining guns, now he blames the mass shooting epidemic on mental health issues, not guns.
Its beyond belief.  :-\
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 08:33:32 AM
Quote from: whitey on November 06, 2017, 09:54:01 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:38:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 06, 2017, 09:28:04 PM
Quote from: Sandy Hill on November 06, 2017, 09:06:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 06, 2017, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: stew on November 06, 2017, 02:16:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Who in their right mind would make a total bag of shit President?

I know right! Thankfully the American people came to their senses just in time to ensure Hillary never got the job!

I love it that inept gimps hate the fact that Trump beat their champion Hillory, go vote for Weinsteins mate you clown!

Hillary's inadequacies  dont make Trump  any less of a bag of shit.

Any time he is criticised on here , your go to statement seems to be ' yeah, but Hillary....'

Yes. False equivalence is the term. We all know Hillary would be poor and unimaginative and possibly a bit bent. Which would be utopia compared to the catastrophe that America and the world is now dealing with. I just hope/pray (delete as applicable) that he is removed from office before he does too much irreversible damage.

+ 100

You guys are in serious fvcking lala land as it pertains to Hillary

What was in the 30,000 emails that were deleted?  It must have been so bad she rolled the dice and risked her entire candidacy to delete and scrub the server.

The Clintons are seriously bad people.....I'm not in Stew's zip code calling her Killary, but Donna Brazille came out and said she feared for her life

That's fvcked up

You know what was in those emails? Sweet f**k all. And everyone knows. If I hear anyone talking about those f**king emails again I'm going to lose it. Total and utter horseshit smokescreen bullshit. Sure the same charges could be fired against Kushner and guess what were in his emails - f**k all as well. Until someone comes up with some evidence or tells us what was in them then its f**king playground stuff.....which is exactly the level that Trump operates at. People that can't separate the levels of badness here really worry me. Look where it has got to? Good job the guy in North Korea has more cop on than Trump or we could all be half blown to Mars by now.

Explain the forensic scrubbing of the server, if you think the emails are a red herring

Explain what was in them if you don't. There's zero doubt in my mind this is a nonsense.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 07, 2017, 10:18:41 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 08:33:32 AM
Quote from: whitey on November 06, 2017, 09:54:01 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:38:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 06, 2017, 09:28:04 PM
Quote from: Sandy Hill on November 06, 2017, 09:06:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 06, 2017, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: stew on November 06, 2017, 02:16:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Who in their right mind would make a total bag of shit President?

I know right! Thankfully the American people came to their senses just in time to ensure Hillary never got the job!

I love it that inept gimps hate the fact that Trump beat their champion Hillory, go vote for Weinsteins mate you clown!

Hillary's inadequacies  dont make Trump  any less of a bag of shit.

Any time he is criticised on here , your go to statement seems to be ' yeah, but Hillary....'

Yes. False equivalence is the term. We all know Hillary would be poor and unimaginative and possibly a bit bent. Which would be utopia compared to the catastrophe that America and the world is now dealing with. I just hope/pray (delete as applicable) that he is removed from office before he does too much irreversible damage.

+ 100

You guys are in serious fvcking lala land as it pertains to Hillary

What was in the 30,000 emails that were deleted?  It must have been so bad she rolled the dice and risked her entire candidacy to delete and scrub the server.

The Clintons are seriously bad people.....I'm not in Stew's zip code calling her Killary, but Donna Brazille came out and said she feared for her life

That's fvcked up

You know what was in those emails? Sweet f**k all. And everyone knows. If I hear anyone talking about those f**king emails again I'm going to lose it. Total and utter horseshit smokescreen bullshit. Sure the same charges could be fired against Kushner and guess what were in his emails - f**k all as well. Until someone comes up with some evidence or tells us what was in them then its f**king playground stuff.....which is exactly the level that Trump operates at. People that can't separate the levels of badness here really worry me. Look where it has got to? Good job the guy in North Korea has more cop on than Trump or we could all be half blown to Mars by now.

Explain the forensic scrubbing of the server, if you think the emails are a red herring

Explain what was in them if you don't. There's zero doubt in my mind this is a nonsense.

Because there was seriously comprimising and incriminating information contained on it

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/358982-early-comey-memo-accused-clinton-of-gross-negligence-on-emails
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Christmas Lights on November 07, 2017, 01:56:11 PM
https://youtu.be/WEExlz7YktI (https://youtu.be/WEExlz7YktI)

Trying to find positives amongst a mass murder ffs. Basically, if they where too die at least it was in a church. Deeply religious people like this come across as almost brainwashed
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on November 07, 2017, 02:08:40 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 07, 2017, 10:18:41 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 08:33:32 AM
Quote from: whitey on November 06, 2017, 09:54:01 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:38:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 06, 2017, 09:28:04 PM
Quote from: Sandy Hill on November 06, 2017, 09:06:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 06, 2017, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: stew on November 06, 2017, 02:16:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Who in their right mind would make a total bag of shit President?

I know right! Thankfully the American people came to their senses just in time to ensure Hillary never got the job!

I love it that inept gimps hate the fact that Trump beat their champion Hillory, go vote for Weinsteins mate you clown!

Hillary's inadequacies  dont make Trump  any less of a bag of shit.

Any time he is criticised on here , your go to statement seems to be ' yeah, but Hillary....'

Yes. False equivalence is the term. We all know Hillary would be poor and unimaginative and possibly a bit bent. Which would be utopia compared to the catastrophe that America and the world is now dealing with. I just hope/pray (delete as applicable) that he is removed from office before he does too much irreversible damage.

+ 100

You guys are in serious fvcking lala land as it pertains to Hillary

What was in the 30,000 emails that were deleted?  It must have been so bad she rolled the dice and risked her entire candidacy to delete and scrub the server.

The Clintons are seriously bad people.....I'm not in Stew's zip code calling her Killary, but Donna Brazille came out and said she feared for her life

That's fvcked up

You know what was in those emails? Sweet f**k all. And everyone knows. If I hear anyone talking about those f**king emails again I'm going to lose it. Total and utter horseshit smokescreen bullshit. Sure the same charges could be fired against Kushner and guess what were in his emails - f**k all as well. Until someone comes up with some evidence or tells us what was in them then its f**king playground stuff.....which is exactly the level that Trump operates at. People that can't separate the levels of badness here really worry me. Look where it has got to? Good job the guy in North Korea has more cop on than Trump or we could all be half blown to Mars by now.

Explain the forensic scrubbing of the server, if you think the emails are a red herring

Explain what was in them if you don't. There's zero doubt in my mind this is a nonsense.

Because there was seriously comprimising and incriminating information contained on it

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/358982-early-comey-memo-accused-clinton-of-gross-negligence-on-emails

You see here's the problem. You've said that there was "compromising and incriminating" evidence in the emails yet put a link to an article which doesn't mention either of these things. The very definition of "Fake News"!!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: NAG1 on November 07, 2017, 02:20:38 PM
Genuinely sick to my back teeth of hearing about these emails:

Could someone who tihnks they are a big deal on here please provide me with some information that was contained in them, that would lead to them actually being a big deal?

Please leave out the right wing rhetoric and BS that has blown up around this issue and just detail what these emails were supposed to have contained?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: StGallsGAA on November 07, 2017, 02:43:25 PM
I guess no-one will ever know what the deleted emails contained but *if* the Clintons are really as evil as some are making out, then it's also pretty likely they didn't get this far by emailing details of their past/current/upcoming major criminal operations!!  Whatever was contained it's obvious it was embarrassing to the extent they got the server cleaned to hide it.   My guess that's more likely to be stuff like Hillary having and itchy muff or Bill rodding some Uni freshers than plans to execute rivals or import drug shipments from Nicaragua. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 07, 2017, 03:08:52 PM
Good NY Times article today on the relationship between gun supply and mass murders. Unsurprisingly, it's a positive correlation. The US is exceeded only by Yemen in the rates of mass shootings.

America's gun homicide rate was 33 per million people in 2009, far exceeding the average among developed countries. In Canada and Britain, it was 5 per million and 0.7 per million, respectively, which also corresponds with differences in gun ownership.

Americans sometimes see this as an expression of deeper problems with crime, a notion ingrained, in part, by a series of films portraying urban gang violence in the early 1990s. But the United States is not actually more prone to crime than other developed countries, according to a landmark 1999 study by Franklin E. Zimring and Gordon Hawkins of the University of California, Berkeley.

Rather, they found, in data that has since been repeatedly confirmed, that American crime is simply more lethal. A New Yorker is just as likely to be robbed as a Londoner, for instance, but the New Yorker is 54 times more likely to be killed in the process.

They concluded that the discrepancy, like so many other anomalies of American violence, came down to guns.

More gun ownership corresponds with more gun murders across virtually every axis: among developed countries, among American states, among American towns and cities and when controlling for crime rates. And gun control legislation tends to reduce gun murders, according to a recent analysis of 130 studies from 10 countries.

This suggests that the guns themselves cause the violence.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 07, 2017, 03:56:05 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 07, 2017, 02:08:40 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 07, 2017, 10:18:41 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 08:33:32 AM
Quote from: whitey on November 06, 2017, 09:54:01 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:38:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 06, 2017, 09:28:04 PM
Quote from: Sandy Hill on November 06, 2017, 09:06:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 06, 2017, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: stew on November 06, 2017, 02:16:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Who in their right mind would make a total bag of shit President?

I know right! Thankfully the American people came to their senses just in time to ensure Hillary never got the job!

I love it that inept gimps hate the fact that Trump beat their champion Hillory, go vote for Weinsteins mate you clown!

Hillary's inadequacies  dont make Trump  any less of a bag of shit.

Any time he is criticised on here , your go to statement seems to be ' yeah, but Hillary....'

Yes. False equivalence is the term. We all know Hillary would be poor and unimaginative and possibly a bit bent. Which would be utopia compared to the catastrophe that America and the world is now dealing with. I just hope/pray (delete as applicable) that he is removed from office before he does too much irreversible damage.

+ 100

You guys are in serious fvcking lala land as it pertains to Hillary

What was in the 30,000 emails that were deleted?  It must have been so bad she rolled the dice and risked her entire candidacy to delete and scrub the server.

The Clintons are seriously bad people.....I'm not in Stew's zip code calling her Killary, but Donna Brazille came out and said she feared for her life

That's fvcked up

You know what was in those emails? Sweet f**k all. And everyone knows. If I hear anyone talking about those f**king emails again I'm going to lose it. Total and utter horseshit smokescreen bullshit. Sure the same charges could be fired against Kushner and guess what were in his emails - f**k all as well. Until someone comes up with some evidence or tells us what was in them then its f**king playground stuff.....which is exactly the level that Trump operates at. People that can't separate the levels of badness here really worry me. Look where it has got to? Good job the guy in North Korea has more cop on than Trump or we could all be half blown to Mars by now.

Explain the forensic scrubbing of the server, if you think the emails are a red herring

Explain what was in them if you don't. There's zero doubt in my mind this is a nonsense.

Because there was seriously comprimising and incriminating information contained on it

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/358982-early-comey-memo-accused-clinton-of-gross-negligence-on-emails

You see here's the problem. You've said that there was "compromising and incriminating" evidence in the emails yet put a link to an article which doesn't mention either of these things. The very definition of "Fake News"!!!

You're missing the point of the article


Comeys original draft stated that there was "gross negligence " by Hillary when it came to her emails

That information was later removed-why?

Would gross negligence be grounds for charges?

It's also on record that Susan Rice/Loretta Lynch (can't remember which one and don't have time to look it up) decreed that the investigation could not be referred to as an investigation, just as a matter, even though there actually was an investigation going on.  Why?

Finally Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch meeting behind close doors at Phoenix Airport....what'd was that all about?

If you think there's nothing to see here, great that's your perogative.

Her emails were under congressional subpoena....she deleted them and scrubbed the server.

Why?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on November 07, 2017, 04:31:37 PM
If she had only done something nice like starting a nuclear war or the like it would be grand  but deleting emails....!!! Burning at the stake offence.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 04:49:52 PM
Who did she send the emails to? Herself??? If you clean a server does it recall all the emails you've sent out? Christ on a bike. The whole thing is a joke.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 07, 2017, 05:26:41 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 04:49:52 PM
Who did she send the emails to? Herself??? If you clean a server does it recall all the emails you've sent out? Christ on a bike. The whole thing is a joke.

Maybe (and probably) they were sent to the Clinton Foundation
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Denn Forever on November 07, 2017, 05:43:57 PM
Re: America`s Gun Culture.

When did we morph in a presidental debate?  If only then politicans would ammend the 2nd Ammendment to it would better reflect the 21st century rather than the 19th.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 07:22:10 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on November 07, 2017, 05:43:57 PM
Re: America`s Gun Culture.

When did we morph in a presidental debate?  If only then politicans would ammend the 2nd Ammendment to it would better reflect the 21st century rather than the 19th.

Oh but have you not heard of originalism? More complete codswallop promoted by the Republican Party.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on November 07, 2017, 07:42:27 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 07, 2017, 04:31:37 PM
If she had only done something nice like starting a nuclear war or the like it would be grand  but deleting emails....!!! Burning at the stake offence.

Here fanny! the woman you are protecting here is a national disgrace, a cheat, a charlatan, a thief and is responsible for multiple deaths of American citizens, you do not bleach bit emails when you are under investigaton by the FBI, or you do when the rules do not apply to you, or you think they dont.

She is up to her neck in money laundering for the foundation and Donna Brazile has destroyed any decent persons faith in this woman, you are indecent sticking up for this nasty excuse for a human being at this stage and people in the party are admitting that they are ashamed of their party, you know, the undemocratic party, let the axes fall and lets live to see Clinton free/corruption free election in 2018 and beyond.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on November 07, 2017, 08:55:18 PM
i think a correlation in gun crime, gun suicides and murders from America compared to France, Germany, england, italy, spain would be massively different (excluding recent terror attacks) ratio, simply down to the fact that 1 country has easy access to guns. Ireland has went through 40 years of sectarian conflict which has made world news for years. I say the death toll from all them years wouldn't match deaths by gun related issues in America in 1 year.

Sometime the penny will drop, at the end of the day guns are big business and that whats its all about, making money instead of saving lifes.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:16:13 PM
Quote from: stew on November 07, 2017, 07:42:27 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 07, 2017, 04:31:37 PM
If she had only done something nice like starting a nuclear war or the like it would be grand  but deleting emails....!!! Burning at the stake offence.

Here fanny! the woman you are protecting here is a national disgrace, a cheat, a charlatan, a thief and is responsible for multiple deaths of American citizens, you do not bleach bit emails when you are under investigaton by the FBI, or you do when the rules do not apply to you, or you think they dont.

She is up to her neck in money laundering for the foundation and Donna Brazile has destroyed any decent persons faith in this woman, you are indecent sticking up for this nasty excuse for a human being at this stage and people in the party are admitting that they are ashamed of their party, you know, the undemocratic party, let the axes fall and lets live to see Clinton free/corruption free election in 2018 and beyond.

Completely missing the point again.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on November 07, 2017, 09:27:32 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:16:13 PM
Quote from: stew on November 07, 2017, 07:42:27 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 07, 2017, 04:31:37 PM
If she had only done something nice like starting a nuclear war or the like it would be grand  but deleting emails....!!! Burning at the stake offence.

Here fanny! the woman you are protecting here is a national disgrace, a cheat, a charlatan, a thief and is responsible for multiple deaths of American citizens, you do not bleach bit emails when you are under investigaton by the FBI, or you do when the rules do not apply to you, or you think they dont.

She is up to her neck in money laundering for the foundation and Donna Brazile has destroyed any decent persons faith in this woman, you are indecent sticking up for this nasty excuse for a human being at this stage and people in the party are admitting that they are ashamed of their party, you know, the undemocratic party, let the axes fall and lets live to see Clinton free/corruption free election in 2018 and beyond.

Completely missing the point again.

My point is rossfan is trivialising Clintons behaviour using it beside an atomic bomb reference!

You do not bleachbit tens of thousands of emails using bleachbit whilst under investigation by the FBI, given the shit show she is involved in now with Brazile and the liberal brass it is fair to say the emails that were deleted, would have been a damning indictment on her, her husband and their rotten and corrupt foundation.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 07, 2017, 09:36:48 PM
Chelsea for President!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Muck Savage on November 07, 2017, 09:46:35 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on November 06, 2017, 03:54:04 PM
read reports this morning that the shooter's former In-laws attended this Church - maybe he was looking for them?
He was a proclaimed Atheist. Quite an angry one it would seem from some of his FB posts and comments from former class mates. I'm not pointing at Atheism as the culprit here before we go down that rabbit hole. A lot of people said he was depressed. He left behind two kids and a ex wife.

Read today that he shot his ex-wifes grandmother dead in the church. Also read that he stopped shooting at one point, everyone was shouting to stay quiet but some kids were crying so he went over and shot them point blank.

Its a sad country when a mentally sick person that has a record of beating his wife can get guns. These mass shootings will continue until the government officials stops taking "lobbyist" money form gun companies. Of course pro gun groups now have a poster child in the guy that showed up with a gun to kill the shooter, "Without him and his gun more people would have died".



Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on November 07, 2017, 09:51:02 PM
Quote from: Muck Savage on November 07, 2017, 09:46:35 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on November 06, 2017, 03:54:04 PM
read reports this morning that the shooter's former In-laws attended this Church - maybe he was looking for them?
He was a proclaimed Atheist. Quite an angry one it would seem from some of his FB posts and comments from former class mates. I'm not pointing at Atheism as the culprit here before we go down that rabbit hole. A lot of people said he was depressed. He left behind two kids and a ex wife.

Read today that he shot his ex-wifes grandmother dead in the church. Also read that he stopped shooting at one point, everyone was shouting to stay quiet but some kids were crying so he went over and shot them point blank.

Its a sad country when a mentally sick person that has a record of beating his wife can get guns. These mass shootings will continue until the government officials stops taking "lobbyist" money form gun companies. Of course pro gun groups now have a poster child in the guy that showed up with a gun to kill the shooter, "Without him and his gun more people would have died".

Guns don't save people, people do.

And the facts say that unarmed civilians are a lot more effective at stopping mass shootings than civilians with guns.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on November 07, 2017, 10:44:26 PM
Quote from: Muck Savage on November 07, 2017, 09:46:35 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on November 06, 2017, 03:54:04 PM
read reports this morning that the shooter's former In-laws attended this Church - maybe he was looking for them?
He was a proclaimed Atheist. Quite an angry one it would seem from some of his FB posts and comments from former class mates. I'm not pointing at Atheism as the culprit here before we go down that rabbit hole. A lot of people said he was depressed. He left behind two kids and a ex wife.

Read today that he shot his ex-wifes grandmother dead in the church. Also read that he stopped shooting at one point, everyone was shouting to stay quiet but some kids were crying so he went over and shot them point blank.

Its a sad country when a mentally sick person that has a record of beating his wife can get guns. These mass shootings will continue until the government officials stops taking "lobbyist" money form gun companies. Of course pro gun groups now have a poster child in the guy that showed up with a gun to kill the shooter, "Without him and his gun more people would have died".

Agree 100% with what you said, especially the last paragraph, the ex wife is one blessed woman in that she is lucky to be alive with her two children but my God, she will suffer endlessly mentally after losing her gran and 25 others dying at the hands of her ex! I dont want to ever imagine that pain.

I despise the NRA and most of what they stand for, if ever Trump, Clinton and the rest of these people on the hill needed to be got rid of now is the time, also special interest groups need to have no political clout and lobbyists need to go away and do something constructive for a living.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Dire Ear on November 08, 2017, 03:07:10 PM
Quote from: Muck Savage on November 07, 2017, 09:46:35 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on November 06, 2017, 03:54:04 PM
read reports this morning that the shooter's former In-laws attended this Church - maybe he was looking for them?
He was a proclaimed Atheist. Quite an angry one it would seem from some of his FB posts and comments from former class mates. I'm not pointing at Atheism as the culprit here before we go down that rabbit hole. A lot of people said he was depressed. He left behind two kids and a ex wife.

Read today that he shot his ex-wifes grandmother dead in the church. Also read that he stopped shooting at one point, everyone was shouting to stay quiet but some kids were crying so he went over and shot them point blank.

Its a sad country when a mentally sick person that has a record of beating his wife can get guns. These mass shootings will continue until the government officials stops taking "lobbyist" money form gun companies. Of course pro gun groups now have a poster child in the guy that showed up with a gun to kill the shooter, "Without him and his gun more people would have died".
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/11/07/trumps-latest-claim-about-the-texas-shooting-is-disingenuous-nonsense/?utm_term=.37364f9c0b1c
Trump....again,  unreal
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Muck Savage on November 08, 2017, 05:00:25 PM
Quote from: stew on November 07, 2017, 10:44:26 PM
Quote from: Muck Savage on November 07, 2017, 09:46:35 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on November 06, 2017, 03:54:04 PM
read reports this morning that the shooter's former In-laws attended this Church - maybe he was looking for them?
He was a proclaimed Atheist. Quite an angry one it would seem from some of his FB posts and comments from former class mates. I'm not pointing at Atheism as the culprit here before we go down that rabbit hole. A lot of people said he was depressed. He left behind two kids and a ex wife.

Read today that he shot his ex-wifes grandmother dead in the church. Also read that he stopped shooting at one point, everyone was shouting to stay quiet but some kids were crying so he went over and shot them point blank.

Its a sad country when a mentally sick person that has a record of beating his wife can get guns. These mass shootings will continue until the government officials stops taking "lobbyist" money form gun companies. Of course pro gun groups now have a poster child in the guy that showed up with a gun to kill the shooter, "Without him and his gun more people would have died".

Agree 100% with what you said, especially the last paragraph, the ex wife is one blessed woman in that she is lucky to be alive with her two children but my God, she will suffer endlessly mentally after losing her gran and 25 others dying at the hands of her ex! I dont want to ever imagine that pain.

I despise the NRA and most of what they stand for, if ever Trump, Clinton and the rest of these people on the hill needed to be got rid of now is the time, also special interest groups need to have no political clout and lobbyists need to go away and do something constructive for a living.

If they couldn't do anything after 20 kids (6 and 7 year olds) were killed in Sandy Hook Elementary school they will never do anything. Politicians will never stand up against money.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on November 08, 2017, 05:16:00 PM
Reports around this morning that this f**ker walked around systematically shooting those poor people in the head, kids and all.

Sometimes I wish I believed in heaven and hell.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2017, 07:29:03 PM
Quote from: Dire Ear on November 08, 2017, 03:07:10 PM
Quote from: Muck Savage on November 07, 2017, 09:46:35 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on November 06, 2017, 03:54:04 PM
read reports this morning that the shooter's former In-laws attended this Church - maybe he was looking for them?
He was a proclaimed Atheist. Quite an angry one it would seem from some of his FB posts and comments from former class mates. I'm not pointing at Atheism as the culprit here before we go down that rabbit hole. A lot of people said he was depressed. He left behind two kids and a ex wife.

Read today that he shot his ex-wifes grandmother dead in the church. Also read that he stopped shooting at one point, everyone was shouting to stay quiet but some kids were crying so he went over and shot them point blank.

Its a sad country when a mentally sick person that has a record of beating his wife can get guns. These mass shootings will continue until the government officials stops taking "lobbyist" money form gun companies. Of course pro gun groups now have a poster child in the guy that showed up with a gun to kill the shooter, "Without him and his gun more people would have died".
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/11/07/trumps-latest-claim-about-the-texas-shooting-is-disingenuous-nonsense/?utm_term=.37364f9c0b1c
Trump....again,  unreal

From.the link:


South Korea, Trump was asked by a reporter: "You've talked about wanting to put extreme vetting on people trying to come into the United States. I wonder if you would consider extreme vetting for people trying to buy a gun?" Trump replied:

"If you did what you're suggesting, there would have been no difference three days ago. And you might not have had that very brave person who happened to have a gun or a rifle in his truck go out and shoot him and hit him and neutralize him. If he didn't have a gun, instead of having 26 dead, you would have had hundreds more dead."

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on November 09, 2017, 02:55:08 PM
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22365692_1445953865500798_5791805648380710168_n.jpg?oh=1eee6e40e3981acdd5f266da04099c17&oe=5A67A2AB)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on November 09, 2017, 03:47:30 PM
A powerful piece, originally written as a response to Sandy Hook, but unfortunately just as relevant today:

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2012/12/15/our-moloch/ (http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2012/12/15/our-moloch/)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 09, 2017, 06:26:57 PM
Quote from: Declan on November 09, 2017, 02:55:08 PM
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22365692_1445953865500798_5791805648380710168_n.jpg?oh=1eee6e40e3981acdd5f266da04099c17&oe=5A67A2AB)

I have said it before and the l'll say it again....people just don't care because disproportionately those killed are people of color who lives in "bad" neighborhoods. 

Chicago is on track to surpass 600 murders this year.....that's fvckin insane
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on February 14, 2018, 10:08:30 PM
At least 14 victims, many feared dead in Florida high School shooting this afternoon
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on February 15, 2018, 06:14:46 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/13/remington-bankruptcy-guns-trump-slump-sales

The US has the highest rate of gun ownership in the world with 88 guns for every 100 people. But just 3% of the population owns an average of 17 guns each, with an estimated 7.7 million super-owners in possession of between eight and 140 guns apiece.

The surge of gun purchases under Obama was largely driven by sales to existing gun owners. Sales spiked on Obama's re-election and after his calls for new laws in the wake of tragedies like the Sandy Hook massacre in 2012, which claimed the lives of 20 children and six adults.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on February 15, 2018, 06:32:08 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/15/dont-look-to-trump-for-leadership-after-the-florida-school-shooting
He must have forgotten to mention school shootings with assault weapons, like the AR-15 used at the Marjory Stoneman Douglas high school in Parkland, Florida. It was the same assault weapon used at the Sutherland Springs Church in Texas in November. It was the same assault weapon used in the Las Vegas massacre the month before that.

There have been many attempts to tackle assault weapons like the AR-15. When Senator Diane Feinstein, the California Democrat, tried to do that in 2013, one month after the Sandy Hook school massacre, there were 60 "no" votes that killed the effort, including those of 15 Democrats.

Among those no votes was one Marco Rubio, the Florida senator, who told Fox News on Wednesday that now wasn't the time to talk about gun control. "I think you can always have that debate," he said. "But if you're gonna have that debate about this particular incident you should know the facts of that incident before you run out and prescribe some law that you claim could have prevented it."

Senator Rubio: Save yourself the trouble. You don't need to know the facts because the last time you heard the facts, you voted against regulating the very gun that massacred all those schoolchildren at Sandy Hook. It's so funny how you need to be 100% sure about the impact of gun control laws when you are prepared to throw any amount of legislation and spending at the far less deadly terrorist threat to the United States.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on February 15, 2018, 09:38:05 AM
This madness has to stop. The biggest terrorist organisation in the world is the NRA who buy and sell US politicians, mostly republicans, for their own sordid purposes. These politicians are accessories to murder as well as corrupt. Frankly, in my opinion, people who oppose gun control are sub human animals because hey are directly facilitating the murder of kids. And I don't choose those words lightly.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 15, 2018, 09:54:54 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 15, 2018, 09:38:05 AM
This madness has to stop. The biggest terrorist organisation in the world is the NRA who buy and sell US politicians, mostly republicans, for their own sordid purposes. These politicians are accessories to murder as well as corrupt. Frankly, in my opinion, people who oppose gun control are sub human animals because hey are directly facilitating the murder of kids. And I don't choose those words lightly.

I know you are way wrong here Seanie, I dont think you are!

I despise the NRA and you are correct in saying the NRA owns to many politicians, it does, that said to say that anyone who opposes gun control is sub human is disgraceful and wrong, by your logic what goes that make women qho have abortions or the doctors who perform abortions?

Pro gun people tend to be by and large extremely good citizens, they have grown up around guns and they feel the law is on their side, which it is, the law clearly states that every citizen has the right to bear arms, not only that but many feel that they are  a part of a necessary militia if and when a  tyrannical government tries to repress the right on the people, and, as you know, this is a big part of what the founding fathers wrote about when forging the constitution.

I know many gun owners and I disagree with many of them, every one of them is a tax paying citizen in good standing, not a one of them has done any time I know of so my question is, how the hell are they sub human Seanie?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on February 15, 2018, 10:04:49 AM
They are facilitating murder by their refusal to accept sensible gun controls.

You could write the same stuff about the security forces in NI including the RUC during the troubles. The law was on their side, good people, pay their taxes.....part of a murder machine.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on February 15, 2018, 10:07:07 AM
Quote from: stew on February 15, 2018, 09:54:54 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 15, 2018, 09:38:05 AM
This madness has to stop. The biggest terrorist organisation in the world is the NRA who buy and sell US politicians, mostly republicans, for their own sordid purposes. These politicians are accessories to murder as well as corrupt. Frankly, in my opinion, people who oppose gun control are sub human animals because hey are directly facilitating the murder of kids. And I don't choose those words lightly.

I know you are way wrong here Seanie, I dont think you are!

I despise the NRA and you are correct in saying the NRA owns to many politicians, it does, that said to say that anyone who opposes gun control is sub human is disgraceful and wrong, by your logic what goes that make women qho have abortions or the doctors who perform abortions?

Pro gun people tend to be by and large extremely good citizens, they have grown up around guns and they feel the law is on their side, which it is, the law clearly states that every citizen has the right to bear arms, not only that but many feel that they are  a part of a necessary militia if and when a  tyrannical government tries to repress the right on the people, and, as you know, this is a big part of what the founding fathers wrote about when forging the constitution.

I know many gun owners and I disagree with many of them, every one of them is a tax paying citizen in good standing, not a one of them has done any time I know of so my question is, how the hell are they sub human Seanie?
I am sure there are plenty of decent people who own guns, but that doesn't make the current gun laws any less wrong.

The fact that this is an argument shows how bat-shit crazy many Americans are
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 15, 2018, 10:26:59 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on February 15, 2018, 10:07:07 AM
Quote from: stew on February 15, 2018, 09:54:54 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 15, 2018, 09:38:05 AM
This madness has to stop. The biggest terrorist organisation in the world is the NRA who buy and sell US politicians, mostly republicans, for their own sordid purposes. These politicians are accessories to murder as well as corrupt. Frankly, in my opinion, people who oppose gun control are sub human animals because hey are directly facilitating the murder of kids. And I don't choose those words lightly.

I know you are way wrong here Seanie, I dont think you are!

I despise the NRA and you are correct in saying the NRA owns to many politicians, it does, that said to say that anyone who opposes gun control is sub human is disgraceful and wrong, by your logic what goes that make women qho have abortions or the doctors who perform abortions?

Pro gun people tend to be by and large extremely good citizens, they have grown up around guns and they feel the law is on their side, which it is, the law clearly states that every citizen has the right to bear arms, not only that but many feel that they are  a part of a necessary militia if and when a  tyrannical government tries to repress the right on the people, and, as you know, this is a big part of what the founding fathers wrote about when forging the constitution.

I know many gun owners and I disagree with many of them, every one of them is a tax paying citizen in good standing, not a one of them has done any time I know of so my question is, how the hell are they sub human Seanie?
I am sure there are plenty of decent people who own guns, but that doesn't make the current gun laws any less wrong.

The fact that this is an argument shows how bat-shit crazy many Americans are

The gun laws are wrong, badly wrong, the republicans are largely to blame here!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 15, 2018, 11:11:16 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 15, 2018, 10:04:49 AM
They are facilitating murder by their refusal to accept sensible gun controls.

You could write the same stuff about the security forces in NI including the RUC during the troubles. The law was on their side, good people, pay their taxes.....part of a murder machine.

What are sensible gun controls?

How do you get the guns out of the hands of drug dealers, gang members and other destructive people with said sensible gun controls?

Until you can have an answer to my second question, you will never ever have a chance of removing guns from the citizenry.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on February 15, 2018, 11:15:17 AM
Quote from: stew on February 15, 2018, 11:11:16 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 15, 2018, 10:04:49 AM
They are facilitating murder by their refusal to accept sensible gun controls.

You could write the same stuff about the security forces in NI including the RUC during the troubles. The law was on their side, good people, pay their taxes.....part of a murder machine.

What are sensible gun controls?

How do you get the guns out of the hands of drug dealers, gang members and other destructive people with said sensible gun controls?

Until you can have an answer to my second question, you will never ever have a chance of removing guns from the citizenry.

Let the police do that, and stop making it easier for them to just replace the fecking things. you're not going to remove guns entirely, and the criminal element will always have them (look at Ireland FFS) but you can make it more difficult for them, and you can stop selling automatic weapons and assault rifles to Joe Blogs off the street. I cannot fathom how anyone can justify owning or being allowed own weapons which are more suited to a battle ready unit of the US Army. Hunting can be done with manual reload rifles, no bother, or shotguns. You don't need a handgun to shoot elk, nor do you need to cut them in half with an automatic set on full. It's batshit stuff.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: thewobbler on February 15, 2018, 11:18:07 AM
Here's a start: make it impossible / 20 year jail term to sell ammunition for any handgun, semi-automatic or automatic weapon, at more than a cartridge per registered gun owner per year. Note, not per gun, per gun owner. Only way to get a "refill" during the year would be with a police verified "firearm discharged lawfully" slip.

Protects the right to bear arms, and retains control for those worried about personal security. Won't prevent gun deaths.... but willl go a long way towards preventing ammunition stockpiling, and make it much more difficult for loosely wired people to build up the arsenal to go on a rampage.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on February 15, 2018, 11:27:17 AM
Quote from: stew on February 15, 2018, 11:11:16 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 15, 2018, 10:04:49 AM
They are facilitating murder by their refusal to accept sensible gun controls.

You could write the same stuff about the security forces in NI including the RUC during the troubles. The law was on their side, good people, pay their taxes.....part of a murder machine.

What are sensible gun controls?

How do you get the guns out of the hands of drug dealers, gang members and other destructive people with said sensible gun controls?

Until you can have an answer to my second question, you will never ever have a chance of removing guns from the citizenry.

If a maniac with a gun is intent on killing people he's not going to be stopped by more guns. That is clear. It's a bullshit argument that has been repeatedly disproven. As is the one that the original intention of guys over 250 years ago must be upheld today. Pure imbecilic stuff.

On sensible gun controls: I've no issue with guys having weapons for hunting provided it is regulated and controlled. For example, there's no need to have a hunting rifle in a suburban house. Keep it at a facility near where they go hunting, like a gun bank or something. No one needs an assault rifle. No one needs a hand gun.

Once the rules are defined there should be an amnesty for people to hand weapons in.

Then after the amnesty period it's a mandatory 30 years in jail for possession of illegally held weapons. No exceptions. I'd pour resources into policing or military if necessary so they could stop and search or just arrive and search. Build special prisons if necessary. It will save thousands of lives. If people are too stupid to change then have 30 years to think about it. At least they wouldn't be dead like those poor kids.

Don't bother telling me "it'll never happen" by the way. I couldn't be arsed with pro gun arguments. All complete shite.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on February 15, 2018, 05:12:30 PM
Seanie has your home ever been broken in to? While you were there? My good friends at home were woken at gun point in Amagh, tied up in the kitchen while the house was ransacked. That was about 15 years ago...... There have been similar events on a weekly basis all over ireland.
No come to america. It happens all the time here. If someone comes in to your house and your daughters and your wife are there and they have intent to do harm, to take a child..... I don't know how you can just blanket bomb these situations with - nobody needs a handgun.  I hope I never do. But I'm glad I have one in case I ever do...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on February 15, 2018, 05:23:04 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on February 15, 2018, 05:12:30 PM
Seanie has your home ever been broken in to? While you were there? My good friends at home were woken at gun point in Amagh, tied up in the kitchen while the house was ransacked. That was about 15 years ago...... There have been similar events on a weekly basis all over ireland.
No come to america. It happens all the time here. If someone comes in to your house and your daughters and your wife are there and they have intent to do harm, to take a child..... I don't know how you can just blanket bomb these situations with - nobody needs a handgun.  I hope I never do. But I'm glad I have one in case I ever do...

OK well that is a pretty massive exaggeration!!! Weekly??

Come on now iceman
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on February 15, 2018, 06:12:00 PM
theres not a weekly robbery in ireland? theres easily once a month in armagh county? I follow Armagh I on bookface and its constant robbery, home invasions, cars taken at gunpoint.... surely building that out by 32 counties would get to a weekly stat? I may and could be wrong but I don't think I'm reaching too far here....
so take the situation in america  - is it weekly or daily here? would you want a gun to protect your family given the current climate here? We are seriously considering shipping out. But until we do I will have the glock in a safe beside the bed
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on February 15, 2018, 06:23:21 PM
Theres something very wrong with the basic mentality of americans, school shootings on a grand scale unlike anywhere else in the world yet bought off corrupt upper class senators and  governors do nothing@ where else in the world does this happen on a regular basis? Ah America the greatest country in the world as they say, until you look through the cracks!@
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on February 15, 2018, 06:47:34 PM
All crime stats in America point to a dizzying decline in murder and serious crime in the past two decades (there was slight bump in murder rate last year, but it was very small).

Just to understand this - Iceman, you say that home invasions and gum crimes are happening every week in Ireland. And extrapolating from that, they are happening more often in the US. But at least in the US you have a Glock to prevent it?

There is a reason that the NRA have taken the path they did - 90s America, which was economically stable, generally stable and socially progressive, would lead to a society with falling crime - thus hurting their bottom line. So the gun companies pumped money into what was, essentially, a sporting organisation, and changed it into a lobbying and political group. Because if there was no real need for guns, then two things would have to happen - a need would have to be created, and in response to this need, guns would not only become popular they would become ubiquitous.

So, with every year of falling crime, more fake outrage over "tyrannical governments" was created, more racist memes about "super predators" etc, more guns were sold, more regulations stripped away - and with the end of the assault weapon ban, mass shootings began to become more frequent, and with far more potential for casualties.

But that works for the gun companies as well, because each time there is a mass shooting, gun sales increase, because people are afraid that the government will regulate gun sales.

So you are left with the situation, where nearly half the world's handguns are available in one country, where there have been 18 school shootings this year alone, but nothing can be done about it, lest it impinge the rights of law abiding and God fearing citizens like Iceman, to have a glock beside their bed, in anticipation of a home invasion, which statistically speaking, will never come. And for gun company execs to get a great stock buyback option each year.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on February 15, 2018, 08:23:05 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on February 15, 2018, 06:12:00 PM
theres not a weekly robbery in ireland? theres easily once a month in armagh county? I follow Armagh I on bookface and its constant robbery, home invasions, cars taken at gunpoint.... surely building that out by 32 counties would get to a weekly stat? I may and could be wrong but I don't think I'm reaching too far here....
so take the situation in america  - is it weekly or daily here? would you want a gun to protect your family given the current climate here? We are seriously considering shipping out. But until we do I will have the glock in a safe beside the bed

People held at gun point in the North is not a weekly occurrence. I live here read the papers and watch the news it's not that regular!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Syferus on February 15, 2018, 09:11:34 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 15, 2018, 08:23:05 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on February 15, 2018, 06:12:00 PM
theres not a weekly robbery in ireland? theres easily once a month in armagh county? I follow Armagh I on bookface and its constant robbery, home invasions, cars taken at gunpoint.... surely building that out by 32 counties would get to a weekly stat? I may and could be wrong but I don't think I'm reaching too far here....
so take the situation in america  - is it weekly or daily here? would you want a gun to protect your family given the current climate here? We are seriously considering shipping out. But until we do I will have the glock in a safe beside the bed

People held at gun point in the North is not a weekly occurrence. I live here read the papers and watch the news it's not that regular!!

I'm starting to think Iceman is just someone's idea of what a stereotypical American neocon would say. Otherwise he's spent too long in the States and he's lost all perspective.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on February 15, 2018, 09:51:07 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on February 15, 2018, 05:12:30 PM
Seanie has your home ever been broken in to? While you were there? My good friends at home were woken at gun point in Amagh, tied up in the kitchen while the house was ransacked. That was about 15 years ago...... There have been similar events on a weekly basis all over ireland.
No come to america. It happens all the time here. If someone comes in to your house and your daughters and your wife are there and they have intent to do harm, to take a child..... I don't know how you can just blanket bomb these situations with - nobody needs a handgun.  I hope I never do. But I'm glad I have one in case I ever do...

If you're woken up at gunpoint your own weapon isn't worth a f**k to you then is it? Obviously sympathies to anyone who faces that ordeal but unless you take your gun out of it's safe storage box and shoot someone in the dark it's bugger all use to you really.

And you're saying that this happens more often in the US....it's as if greater gun ownership isn't a deterrent or something???!!!!

Complete nonsense my friend. Don't let the boogeyman stories infect your thought process.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on February 15, 2018, 09:57:26 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 15, 2018, 09:51:07 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on February 15, 2018, 05:12:30 PM
Seanie has your home ever been broken in to? While you were there? My good friends at home were woken at gun point in Amagh, tied up in the kitchen while the house was ransacked. That was about 15 years ago...... There have been similar events on a weekly basis all over ireland.
No come to america. It happens all the time here. If someone comes in to your house and your daughters and your wife are there and they have intent to do harm, to take a child..... I don't know how you can just blanket bomb these situations with - nobody needs a handgun.  I hope I never do. But I'm glad I have one in case I ever do...

If you're woken up at gunpoint your own weapon isn't worth a f**k to you then is it? Obviously sympathies to anyone who faces that ordeal but unless you take your gun out of it's safe storage box and shoot someone in the dark it's bugger all use to you really.

And you're saying that this happens more often in the US....it's as if greater gun ownership isn't a deterrent or something???!!!!

Complete nonsense my friend. Don't let the boogeyman stories infect your thought process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0&t=2m53s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0&t=2m53s)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on February 15, 2018, 10:20:01 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 15, 2018, 09:57:26 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 15, 2018, 09:51:07 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on February 15, 2018, 05:12:30 PM
Seanie has your home ever been broken in to? While you were there? My good friends at home were woken at gun point in Amagh, tied up in the kitchen while the house was ransacked. That was about 15 years ago...... There have been similar events on a weekly basis all over ireland.
No come to america. It happens all the time here. If someone comes in to your house and your daughters and your wife are there and they have intent to do harm, to take a child..... I don't know how you can just blanket bomb these situations with - nobody needs a handgun.  I hope I never do. But I'm glad I have one in case I ever do...

If you're woken up at gunpoint your own weapon isn't worth a f**k to you then is it? Obviously sympathies to anyone who faces that ordeal but unless you take your gun out of it's safe storage box and shoot someone in the dark it's bugger all use to you really.

And you're saying that this happens more often in the US....it's as if greater gun ownership isn't a deterrent or something???!!!!

Complete nonsense my friend. Don't let the boogeyman stories infect your thought process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0&t=2m53s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0&t=2m53s)

Excellent. About sums up the stupidity of it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Minder on February 15, 2018, 10:24:18 PM
Cant be arsed reading this thread but if gun reform didn't happen after Sandy Hook, it never will
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on February 16, 2018, 12:32:49 AM
Jim Jeffries nailed it.

Interesting to see how this social media nra donation campign works out...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on February 16, 2018, 12:51:55 AM
A lot of people are talking about how there are no solutions to the problem of gun violence in America.

But then I overheard somebody on a bus say "they should ban guns".

I thought to myself, that sounds so obvious that it just might work!





Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 16, 2018, 01:51:20 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 16, 2018, 12:51:55 AM
A lot of people are talking about how there are no solutions to the problem of gun violence in America.

But then I overheard somebody on a bus say "they should ban guns".

I thought to myself, that sounds so obvious that it just might work!

You didnt think, thats the problem, you ban guns it gets worse, do you seriously think that banning guns will solve the problem? If so you are a biggr idiot than I took you for!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Captain Obvious on February 16, 2018, 02:03:24 AM
Its a country that loves their guns so a ban on all guns isn't going to happen anytime soon no matter the amount of school/mass shootings. The simple solution is tighter gun control in every state = less deaths.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on February 16, 2018, 03:15:56 AM
Capt, your analysis is simple but true.  As desirable as it might be to ban guns, it simply isn't going to happen, but let's start with the obvious.  Mass shootings.  Yes, deaths from mass shootings constitute only a thin slice of all annual gun deaths, still a ban on military grade weapons like the AR-15 seems like a reasonable thing to do.  Nobody, I mean nobody, needs those weapons. 

I don't know how much worse it can get. Let's take a landmark death, since we seem to be forgetful of or indifferent to the others. They're so frequent, after all. Robert Kennedy's. Since his death in 1968, more than 1.5 miillion, yes one and a half  million, have died from guns in the US, more than the combined total of death in all military conflicts combined, including the Civil War. That's obscene.

So, let's start by banning all absurd weapons. Period. Then let's continue by applying stricter rules to gun ownership and begin by outlawing out-of-the-trunk-of-my-car sales and regulating gun shows even more strictly.

None of this will happen of course because politicians, Republican and Democrat, are owned by the gun lobby. 

And shut the hell up about mental illness.  The mentally ill are not the problem, especially when you're cutting funding for mental health! People have mental health problems in other countries, but they don't amass small arsenals and go on shooting sprees. Guns are the problem, guns and the paid politicians who refuse to enact sensible measures to curb their easy acquisition.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnneycool on February 16, 2018, 08:39:14 AM
Quote from: stew on February 16, 2018, 01:51:20 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 16, 2018, 12:51:55 AM
A lot of people are talking about how there are no solutions to the problem of gun violence in America.

But then I overheard somebody on a bus say "they should ban guns".

I thought to myself, that sounds so obvious that it just might work!

You didnt think, thats the problem, you ban guns it gets worse, do you seriously think that banning guns will solve the problem? If so you are a biggr idiot than I took you for!

#thoughtsandprayers is it then.

Yeah that'll fuckin work.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on February 16, 2018, 10:14:54 AM
Quote from: stew on February 16, 2018, 01:51:20 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 16, 2018, 12:51:55 AM
A lot of people are talking about how there are no solutions to the problem of gun violence in America.

But then I overheard somebody on a bus say "they should ban guns".

I thought to myself, that sounds so obvious that it just might work!

You didnt think, thats the problem, you ban guns it gets worse, do you seriously think that banning guns will solve the problem? If so you are a biggr idiot than I took you for!
Yes mate, I think it would work way, way better than the current situation.

It's a very simple problem with a very simple solution, and only very simple people, like you, think otherwise.





Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 10:32:50 AM
American history is drenched in violence because it's a settler colonial country. The Injuns were dispossessed brutally. Then you have slavery which wasn't particularly fluffy either. Lynchings too.  You can't switch that off in a society.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: tonto1888 on February 16, 2018, 10:42:13 AM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 16, 2018, 02:03:24 AM
Its a country that loves their guns so a ban on all guns isn't going to happen anytime soon no matter the amount of school/mass shootings. The simple solution is tighter gun control in every state = less deaths.

I agree with this but doesn't Chicago have both the strictest laws on gun control and the highest number of shooting deaths?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on February 16, 2018, 11:17:08 AM
The neighbouring states don't have the same strict laws and the guns flood into Chicago. Highlights the need for federal action, rather than state laws (though realistically it is at state level where the most progress can be made).
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 16, 2018, 11:35:35 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 16, 2018, 10:14:54 AM
Quote from: stew on February 16, 2018, 01:51:20 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 16, 2018, 12:51:55 AM
A lot of people are talking about how there are no solutions to the problem of gun violence in America.

But then I overheard somebody on a bus say "they should ban guns".

I thought to myself, that sounds so obvious that it just might work!

You didnt think, thats the problem, you ban guns it gets worse, do you seriously think that banning guns will solve the problem? If so you are a biggr idiot than I took you for!
Yes mate, I think it would work way, way better than the current situation.

It's a very simple problem with a very simple solution, and only very simple people, like you, think otherwise.

Siddles, how much time have you spent in the States? If you think this is a simple problem you are the one that is simple, I just read about many police officers and servicemen who, when asked if they would go to peoples homes and take the guns from them, to a man/woman they said no, they would refuse ANY order to do so, so that makes things a tad complex, who is going to collect these guns? the liberal politicians? Hardly ked!

What is your simple solution sidley? Pray tell, I am all ears.

The fact is guns have been a part of American history since the beginning of American history and no way in hell will the gun ever be removed from American society, its not going to happen ever!!!!

I could see a scenario were snowflakes like you sidley go knocking on doors demanding gun owners hand over their guns, I would watch in fascinated horror as your chest exploded with a 45 ripping through it and your mouth agape with that wtf  expression before you expired, the fact you see this as a simple problem with a simple fix speaks volumes, in my scenario you would be missed sidley, truly missed, and this from a man who has no time for guns at all at all anymore, you are living in fantasy land kid and you know nothing about the gun control situation in America, absolutely nothing!

Police officers, Marines, Armay men etc will refuse en masse to take guns from the people, it will not happen.............Ever. Simple.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on February 16, 2018, 11:43:51 AM
Quote from: stew on February 16, 2018, 11:35:35 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 16, 2018, 10:14:54 AM
Quote from: stew on February 16, 2018, 01:51:20 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 16, 2018, 12:51:55 AM
A lot of people are talking about how there are no solutions to the problem of gun violence in America.

But then I overheard somebody on a bus say "they should ban guns".

I thought to myself, that sounds so obvious that it just might work!

You didnt think, thats the problem, you ban guns it gets worse, do you seriously think that banning guns will solve the problem? If so you are a biggr idiot than I took you for!
Yes mate, I think it would work way, way better than the current situation.

It's a very simple problem with a very simple solution, and only very simple people, like you, think otherwise.

Siddles, how much time have you spent in the States? If you think this is a simple problem you are the one that is simple, I just read about many police officers and servicemen who, when asked if they would go to peoples homes and take the guns from them, to a man/woman they said no, they would refuse ANY order to do so, so that makes things a tad complex, who is going to collect these guns? the liberal politicians? Hardly ked!

What is your simple solution sidley? Pray tell, I am all ears.

The fact is guns have been a part of American history since the beginning of American history and no way in hell will the gun ever be removed from American society, its not going to happen ever!!!!

I could see a scenario were snowflakes like you sidley go knocking on doors demanding gun owners hand over their guns, I would watch in fascinated horror as your chest exploded with a 45 ripping through it and your mouth agape with that wtf  expression before you expired, the fact you see this as a simple problem with a simple fix speaks volumes, in my scenario you would be missed sidley, truly missed, and this from a man who has no time for guns at all at all anymore, you are living in fantasy land kid and you know nothing about the gun control situation in America, absolutely nothing!

Police officers, Marines, Armay men etc will refuse en masse to take guns from the people, it will not happen.............Ever. Simple.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/bSllM1kdw7C7e/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 11:49:21 AM
Leader McConnell

@SenateMajLdr

I'm deeply saddened by the horrific violence in Florida. Praying for the victims, their families, and the Parkland community. Always grateful for first responders

Norman Ornstein Retweeted
@JamesFallows

·

16h

Just for the historical record: after the Sandy Hook / Newtown shootings of Dec 2012, @LeaderMcConnell led the Senate filibuster that kept gun control measures from coming to a vote. (link: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/us/politics/senate-obama-gun-control.html) nytimes.com/2013/04/18/us/...


Maggie Haberman

@maggieNYT

·

14h

Trump said nothing about guns.



NBC News

@NBCNews

House Speaker Paul Ryan said Congress needs to "take a breath and collect the facts." "We don't just knee-jerk before we even have all the facts and the data," Ryan said on WIBC Radio of Indianapolis.





Michiko Kakutani

@michikokakutani

·

1h

In 1996, the Republican-majority Congress threatened to strip funding from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention unless it stopped funding research into firearm injuries and deaths. (link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/10/04/gun-violence-research-has-been-shut-down-for-20-years/?utm_term=.b495134d4dbd) washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on February 16, 2018, 11:52:15 AM
How does anyone know unless it's tried?

Australia decided to have an amnesty on semi automatic weapons and introduce strict background checks on all gun ownership going forward.

They haven't had a mass shooting since and the rates of homicide and suicide have reduced. You will never stop it completely or get all the guns but at least do f**king something!!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: tonto1888 on February 16, 2018, 12:04:05 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on February 16, 2018, 11:17:08 AM
The neighbouring states don't have the same strict laws and the guns flood into Chicago. Highlights the need for federal action, rather than state laws (though realistically it is at state level where the most progress can be made).

makes sense
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: TabClear on February 16, 2018, 12:15:36 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 16, 2018, 11:52:15 AM
How does anyone know unless it's tried?

Australia decided to have an amnesty on semi automatic weapons and introduce strict background checks on all gun ownership going forward.

They haven't had a mass shooting since and the rates of homicide and suicide have reduced. You will never stop it completely or get all the guns but at least do f**king something!!!

Was not aware of that.

I dont normally pay too much attention to this thread because a) I know very little about the laws and situation in America bar what I see in the media and b) like all things USA on this board it seems to develop into the  into the usual  rants.

However, I honestly fail to see how anyone can defend not banning automatic/semi automatic  weapons. I get the whole issue around the number of  guns in circulation and if you banned them then they would be forced underground etc etc. But, if you make it harder for one nutjob to carry out a Sandy Hook, Vegas, Florida then surely that is a result. Yes if they were determined enough they could probably source guns illegally but I assume this would take time and they probably would not be able to put together the same arsenal and secondly may go for an "easier" option of using a knife/car or even a handgun etc. Horrific yes, but highly unlikely to result in the same number of fatalities.

I'm not sure where I stand on the handgun side of things. Personally I think if you are starting from scratch you ban them but given the Constitution and the sheer numbers in circulation that is never going to happen.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 16, 2018, 12:55:36 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 16, 2018, 11:43:51 AM
Quote from: stew on February 16, 2018, 11:35:35 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 16, 2018, 10:14:54 AM
Quote from: stew on February 16, 2018, 01:51:20 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 16, 2018, 12:51:55 AM
A lot of people are talking about how there are no solutions to the problem of gun violence in America.

But then I overheard somebody on a bus say "they should ban guns".

I thought to myself, that sounds so obvious that it just might work!

You didnt think, thats the problem, you ban guns it gets worse, do you seriously think that banning guns will solve the problem? If so you are a biggr idiot than I took you for!
Yes mate, I think it would work way, way better than the current situation.

It's a very simple problem with a very simple solution, and only very simple people, like you, think otherwise.

Siddles, how much time have you spent in the States? If you think this is a simple problem you are the one that is simple, I just read about many police officers and servicemen who, when asked if they would go to peoples homes and take the guns from them, to a man/woman they said no, they would refuse ANY order to do so, so that makes things a tad complex, who is going to collect these guns? the liberal politicians? Hardly ked!

What is your simple solution sidley? Pray tell, I am all ears.

The fact is guns have been a part of American history since the beginning of American history and no way in hell will the gun ever be removed from American society, its not going to happen ever!!!!

I could see a scenario were snowflakes like you sidley go knocking on doors demanding gun owners hand over their guns, I would watch in fascinated horror as your chest exploded with a 45 ripping through it and your mouth agape with that wtf  expression before you expired, the fact you see this as a simple problem with a simple fix speaks volumes, in my scenario you would be missed sidley, truly missed, and this from a man who has no time for guns at all at all anymore, you are living in fantasy land kid and you know nothing about the gun control situation in America, absolutely nothing!

Police officers, Marines, Armay men etc will refuse en masse to take guns from the people, it will not happen.............Ever. Simple.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/bSllM1kdw7C7e/giphy.gif)

So exile, it is a simple fix as your mucker siddles infers?

Great movie by the way, you gotta love slim pickins!  ;)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnneycool on February 16, 2018, 01:52:59 PM
Quote from: stew on February 16, 2018, 12:55:36 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 16, 2018, 11:43:51 AM
Quote from: stew on February 16, 2018, 11:35:35 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 16, 2018, 10:14:54 AM
Quote from: stew on February 16, 2018, 01:51:20 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 16, 2018, 12:51:55 AM
A lot of people are talking about how there are no solutions to the problem of gun violence in America.

But then I overheard somebody on a bus say "they should ban guns".

I thought to myself, that sounds so obvious that it just might work!

You didnt think, thats the problem, you ban guns it gets worse, do you seriously think that banning guns will solve the problem? If so you are a biggr idiot than I took you for!
Yes mate, I think it would work way, way better than the current situation.

It's a very simple problem with a very simple solution, and only very simple people, like you, think otherwise.

Siddles, how much time have you spent in the States? If you think this is a simple problem you are the one that is simple, I just read about many police officers and servicemen who, when asked if they would go to peoples homes and take the guns from them, to a man/woman they said no, they would refuse ANY order to do so, so that makes things a tad complex, who is going to collect these guns? the liberal politicians? Hardly ked!

What is your simple solution sidley? Pray tell, I am all ears.

The fact is guns have been a part of American history since the beginning of American history and no way in hell will the gun ever be removed from American society, its not going to happen ever!!!!

I could see a scenario were snowflakes like you sidley go knocking on doors demanding gun owners hand over their guns, I would watch in fascinated horror as your chest exploded with a 45 ripping through it and your mouth agape with that wtf  expression before you expired, the fact you see this as a simple problem with a simple fix speaks volumes, in my scenario you would be missed sidley, truly missed, and this from a man who has no time for guns at all at all anymore, you are living in fantasy land kid and you know nothing about the gun control situation in America, absolutely nothing!

Police officers, Marines, Armay men etc will refuse en masse to take guns from the people, it will not happen.............Ever. Simple.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/bSllM1kdw7C7e/giphy.gif)

So exile, it is a simple fix as your mucker siddles infers?

Great movie by the way, you gotta love slim pickins!  ;)

So what is your solution Stew?

Is it just one of the things you have to endure to live in the greatest democracy in the free world?

Are we snowflakes for thinking its crazy that schools are susceptible to these types of shooting on a weekly basis?

#thoughtsandprayers
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trueblue1234 on February 16, 2018, 02:21:00 PM
It has to be done in stages. You can't get a seismic shift in gun control passed in the US, so it's pointless trying. Take it step by step. And surely the most obvious first stage is to stop the sale of automatic weapons. There is no reasonable argument for that. You would have to hope that this would have support by enough in the US to get through. If not, then I'm sorry stew, but the collectives calls for stupidity against the US have some grounding.
So remove these weapons first. Then move to review the license process and make it much more strict. As wobbler mentioned, then move to restrict ammunition. Then remove to look at hand guns etc. Peel it back slowly over many years if it has to be. But at least start the process now, don't kick the can down the road anymore.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnneycool on February 16, 2018, 02:29:13 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 16, 2018, 02:21:00 PM
It has to be done in stages. You can't get a seismic shift in gun control passed in the US, so it's pointless trying. Take it step by step. And surely the most obvious first stage is to stop the sale of automatic weapons. There is no reasonable argument for that. You would have to hope that this would have support by enough in the US to get through. If not, then I'm sorry stew, but the collectives calls for stupidity against the US have some grounding.
So remove these weapons first. Then move to review the license process and make it much more strict. As wobbler mentioned, then move to restrict ammunition. Then remove to look at hand guns etc. Peel it back slowly over many years if it has to be. But at least start the process now, don't kick the can down the road anymore.

You're not even going to get that debate on automatic weapons started due to the stranglehold the NRA have over both parties.
To really start the process lobbying groups need to be curtailed and the only ones able to do that are the politicians and turkeys don't vote for christmas I'm afraid.

The swamp does indeed need drained but there has to be a political will to do it, but they're all on the take somewhere or other.

It's not going to happen and we'll get all the fake outrage and sympathy once again, then again and again.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 02:35:12 PM
The NRA is a core GOP constituency. Nothing will change
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on February 16, 2018, 02:56:11 PM
Quote from: stew on February 16, 2018, 11:35:35 AMI just read about many police officers and servicemen who, when asked if they would go to peoples homes and take the guns from them, to a man/woman they said no, they would refuse ANY order to do so

So the armed services would mutiny? It's even more screwed up than I thought.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: TabClear on February 16, 2018, 03:03:09 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 16, 2018, 02:56:11 PM
Quote from: stew on February 16, 2018, 11:35:35 AMI just read about many police officers and servicemen who, when asked if they would go to peoples homes and take the guns from them, to a man/woman they said no, they would refuse ANY order to do so

So the armed services would mutiny? It's even more screwed up than I thought.

You a link to that article Stew? Would be interested to read that.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on February 16, 2018, 03:16:12 PM
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/15/it-took-one-massacre-how-australia-made-gun-control-happen-after-port-arthur

It's a very long article but it is about the Australian Gun amnesty after the Port Arthur shootings, the guy used the same AR 15 rifle that was used the other day. The USA needs to change it's mindset. Australia did and there have been no mass shootings since. In the 20 years prior to that there were 13. If you do nothing then nothing changes. If you accept that it should stay the same then it will always stay the same. If people cannot see the need for change then it will repeat and repeat and then the only ones who  benefit from it are the makers of the guns as whether they're being used legally or illegally they still have to be bought at some stage. The gun company's are laughing at the population of the US and it's politicians.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on February 16, 2018, 03:28:10 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 16, 2018, 02:21:00 PM
It has to be done in stages. You can't get a seismic shift in gun control passed in the US, so it's pointless trying. Take it step by step. And surely the most obvious first stage is to stop the sale of automatic weapons. There is no reasonable argument for that. You would have to hope that this would have support by enough in the US to get through. If not, then I'm sorry stew, but the collectives calls for stupidity against the US have some grounding.
So remove these weapons first. Then move to review the license process and make it much more strict. As wobbler mentioned, then move to restrict ammunition. Then remove to look at hand guns etc. Peel it back slowly over many years if it has to be. But at least start the process now, don't kick the can down the road anymore.

Exactly.
Its not that  complicated.
Start with banning removing the weapons capable of doing the most damage, the assault rifles.
No one expects this to be done over night, it may take 20 years or more, but at least try!


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 18, 2018, 01:07:41 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on February 16, 2018, 03:28:10 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 16, 2018, 02:21:00 PM
It has to be done in stages. You can't get a seismic shift in gun control passed in the US, so it's pointless trying. Take it step by step. And surely the most obvious first stage is to stop the sale of automatic weapons. There is no reasonable argument for that. You would have to hope that this would have support by enough in the US to get through. If not, then I'm sorry stew, but the collectives calls for stupidity against the US have some grounding.
So remove these weapons first. Then move to review the license process and make it much more strict. As wobbler mentioned, then move to restrict ammunition. Then remove to look at hand guns etc. Peel it back slowly over many years if it has to be. But at least start the process now, don't kick the can down the road anymore.

Exactly.
Its not that  complicated.
Start with banning removing the weapons capable of doing the most damage, the assault rifles.
No one expects this to be done over night, it may take 20 years or more, but at least try!

So it is complicated, how can anything so simple take 20 years for just the first step?

I would love to see all of the above acted upon, who of us here wouldnt? That said there are a few fundamental flaws I have to point out.

Stopping the sale of Automatic weapons may, just may be achieveable, due to the NRA it probably wont happen, they have too many bent politicians in their back pockets.

Reviewing the Licensing process is badly needed however I refer you to my first point.

Restricting ammunition is a band aid, it will solve nothing, the ammo will be made underground, sold on and wont be a problem even if by some miracle leglislation was passed on this front.

looking to take their hand guns willbe used by the NRA as a mean to civil disobediance on an unprecedented scale, it will lead to anarchy and chaos, you have to bear in mind, these people grew up with guns, they know guns, they had them in racks in their pick up trucks, shit, three years ago I went up north to Michigan to play golf and not only did the other three have guns with them, but there was a gun rack in the back of the truck, it was weird to me them packing all that heat but they thought I was the irrational one when I mentioned I was uncomfortable with the weaponry, it is a cultural thing in America for Americans, we can never understand it but it does not make them thick, it makes them different, the yanks might be many things but thick they are not on the whole.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on February 18, 2018, 01:39:16 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on February 16, 2018, 03:28:10 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 16, 2018, 02:21:00 PM
It has to be done in stages. You can't get a seismic shift in gun control passed in the US, so it's pointless trying. Take it step by step. And surely the most obvious first stage is to stop the sale of automatic weapons. There is no reasonable argument for that. You would have to hope that this would have support by enough in the US to get through. If not, then I'm sorry stew, but the collectives calls for stupidity against the US have some grounding.
So remove these weapons first. Then move to review the license process and make it much more strict. As wobbler mentioned, then move to restrict ammunition. Then remove to look at hand guns etc. Peel it back slowly over many years if it has to be. But at least start the process now, don't kick the can down the road anymore.

Exactly.
Its not that  complicated.
Start with banning removing the weapons capable of doing the most damage, the assault rifles.
No one expects this to be done over night, it may take 20 years or more, but at least try!

Assault weapons get all the headlines but something like 90% of gun murders are committed using handguns.  The biggest problem in my opinion is that every state has its own laws and there is little federal oversight

IL  has very strict gun laws, but next door in IN (which abuts the city of Chicago) the laws are very lax

FFS I read somewhere that in TX you can buy a gun at a yard sale

They should start by rigorously enforcing the laws that are already on the books. Charge gun sellers as accessories if they do not follow protocol
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on April 25, 2018, 01:24:26 PM
Resurrecting this thread to share this video from Toronto. Obviously an horrific attack by what seems to be a mentally disturbed young fella with a van. Killed 10 people. Shocking stuff.

This is the arrest, videoed by members of the public. How brave is this cop? Fair play to him.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4165974/toronto-van-attack-ken-lam-father-reacts/ (https://globalnews.ca/news/4165974/toronto-van-attack-ken-lam-father-reacts/)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on April 25, 2018, 02:01:48 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 25, 2018, 01:24:26 PM
Resurrecting this thread to share this video from Toronto. Obviously an horrific attack by what seems to be a mentally disturbed young fella with a van. Killed 10 people. Shocking stuff.

This is the arrest, videoed by members of the public. How brave is this cop? Fair play to him.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4165974/toronto-van-attack-ken-lam-father-reacts/ (https://globalnews.ca/news/4165974/toronto-van-attack-ken-lam-father-reacts/)
It could very easily have went the other way though AZ? Members of the public in the area. The man just murdered 10 people and he reaches quickly for something (like a gun) and pulls it to a 'drawn' position? The cop would have been completely justified in shooting him. If it had of been a gun there would have been more people dead. The cop was very very lucky it wasn't.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on April 25, 2018, 02:27:29 PM
I think I trust the Cop. He obviously saw what was going on.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on April 25, 2018, 02:50:03 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 25, 2018, 02:27:29 PM
I think I trust the Cop. He obviously saw what was going on.
if he had shot him when he reached for a "weapon" I don't think anyone would be calling for him to be fired though?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on April 25, 2018, 02:52:32 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on April 25, 2018, 02:50:03 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 25, 2018, 02:27:29 PM
I think I trust the Cop. He obviously saw what was going on.
if he had shot him when he reached for a "weapon" I don't think anyone would be calling for him to be fired though?

No, they wouldn't. That's what I meant. In many ways he would have been perfectly justified, but he played the situation in front of him, rather than panicking and pulling the trigger.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on April 25, 2018, 03:05:08 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 25, 2018, 01:24:26 PM
Resurrecting this thread to share this video from Toronto. Obviously an horrific attack by what seems to be a mentally disturbed young fella with a van. Killed 10 people. Shocking stuff.

This is the arrest, videoed by members of the public. How brave is this cop? Fair play to him.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4165974/toronto-van-attack-ken-lam-father-reacts/ (https://globalnews.ca/news/4165974/toronto-van-attack-ken-lam-father-reacts/)

Seems to be 2nd atrocity carried out by someone claiming to belong to INCEL. Involuntary Celibate. I kid you not.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/24/toronto-van-attack-facebook-post-may-link-suspect-with-incel-group
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omagh_gael on April 25, 2018, 04:03:47 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on April 25, 2018, 03:05:08 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 25, 2018, 01:24:26 PM
Resurrecting this thread to share this video from Toronto. Obviously an horrific attack by what seems to be a mentally disturbed young fella with a van. Killed 10 people. Shocking stuff.

This is the arrest, videoed by members of the public. How brave is this cop? Fair play to him.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4165974/toronto-van-attack-ken-lam-father-reacts/ (https://globalnews.ca/news/4165974/toronto-van-attack-ken-lam-father-reacts/)

Seems to be 2nd atrocity carried out by someone claiming to belong to INCEL. Involuntary Celibate. I kid you not.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/24/toronto-van-attack-facebook-post-may-link-suspect-with-incel-group

Was totally unaware of this subgroup and subsequently read up on them. Utter madness. Your man from the Santa Barbara shooting spree was also totally off the wall. He lived a very privileged life and was just pissed off that he couldn't hit it off with the popular girls. Mix this with clear mental health issues, easy gun access and you have serious problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2qBBBvYQOA

Minnasion appears to have had significant difficulties in life reading statements from those that knew him. Wouldn't be surprised to hear he had high functioning Autism. He's been described as incredibly gifted although extremely socially awkward and bizarre in some of his behaviour.

That cop has balls the size of bowling balls. He must of knew it wasn't a gun though as he had it drawn before making those fast 'draw' movements. The camera is too far away to tell exactly what it was. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on June 28, 2018, 08:43:30 PM
Here we are again

Quote@AP

Report: Multiple people shot at The Capital newspaper in Annapolis, Maryland.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: dec on June 28, 2018, 10:46:45 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on June 28, 2018, 08:43:30 PM
Here we are again

Quote@AP

Report: Multiple people shot at The Capital newspaper in Annapolis, Maryland.

Don't worry, everything is going to be OK. Donald Trump has just tweeted that his thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on June 29, 2018, 12:41:27 AM
Wow! That's new. Maybe there's hope.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on June 29, 2018, 10:08:03 AM
Was the shooter from one of those awful Muslim Countries?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnnycool on June 29, 2018, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 29, 2018, 10:08:03 AM
Was the shooter from one of those awful Muslim Countries?

"They said a white male suspect in his late 30s was taken into custody at the scene of the shooting and was being questioned."

Don't think he shouted Allahu Akbar either.

Thoughts and prayers will suffice this time as there were only 5 killed.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on June 29, 2018, 11:34:57 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on June 29, 2018, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 29, 2018, 10:08:03 AM
Was the shooter from one of those awful Muslim Countries?

"They said a white male suspect in his late 30s was taken into custody at the scene of the shooting and was being questioned."


Just exercising his Constitoootional rights.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GJL on July 16, 2018, 12:50:27 PM
Watch the clip in the link. Funny and tragic at the same time. https://m.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-news/watch-preview-of-sacha-baron-cohens-who-is-america-has-to-be-seen-to-be-believed-37122233.html (https://m.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-news/watch-preview-of-sacha-baron-cohens-who-is-america-has-to-be-seen-to-be-believed-37122233.html)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on July 17, 2018, 02:10:11 AM
These are elected politicians agreeing that good toddlers with guns is a great idea. We're fucked.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on July 17, 2018, 09:14:01 AM
Quote from: GJL on July 16, 2018, 12:50:27 PM
Watch the clip in the link. Funny and tragic at the same time. https://m.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-news/watch-preview-of-sacha-baron-cohens-who-is-america-has-to-be-seen-to-be-believed-37122233.html (https://m.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-news/watch-preview-of-sacha-baron-cohens-who-is-america-has-to-be-seen-to-be-believed-37122233.html)

That is astonishing  :-\
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Mayo4Sam on July 17, 2018, 10:06:03 AM
That video is worryingly hilarious

Those people are actually elected and they actually believe giving a gun to a four year old is ok. Just think about that, think about a four year old that you know and now imagine giving them a gun
Just WOW
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Armamike on July 17, 2018, 10:28:38 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on July 17, 2018, 10:06:03 AM
That video is worryingly hilarious

Those people are actually elected and they actually believe giving a gun to a four year old is ok. Just think about that, think about a four year old that you know and now imagine giving them a gun
Just WOW

Give someone enough rope.  Is this typical of the gun lobby view or just one fool who can't think straight. Hope it's the latter.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Mayo4Sam on July 17, 2018, 11:30:42 AM
It wasn't just one congressman supporting it!

And the way the gun lobbyist spotted out the "science" bit

"Children under five also have elevated levels of the pheromone Blink-182, produced by the part of the liver known as the Rita Ora," Pratt says. "This allows nerve reflexes to travel along the Cardi B neural pathway to the Wiz Khalifa 40% faster, saving time and saving lives."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Denn Forever on July 17, 2018, 12:06:24 PM
What did the  2nd Amendment amend?  Any US Constitution scolars out there?  Must have been something pretty odd to make the 2nd Amendment an improvement.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnnycool on July 17, 2018, 12:35:30 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on July 17, 2018, 11:30:42 AM
It wasn't just one congressman supporting it!

And the way the gun lobbyist spotted out the "science" bit

"Children under five also have elevated levels of the pheromone Blink-182, produced by the part of the liver known as the Rita Ora," Pratt says. "This allows nerve reflexes to travel along the Cardi B neural pathway to the Wiz Khalifa 40% faster, saving time and saving lives."

I had to listen to that bit twice as I couldn't believe it the first time.

Astounding and frightening in equal measure.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 17, 2018, 02:03:27 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on July 17, 2018, 12:06:24 PM
What did the  2nd Amendment amend?  Any US Constitution scolars out there?  Must have been something pretty odd to make the 2nd Amendment an improvement.

Think the bill of rights (first ten amendments) were added at the time the constitution was originally ratified. Basically filling perceived gaps in rights and protections that had been omitted or not considered in the original document.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 02:05:57 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on July 17, 2018, 12:35:30 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on July 17, 2018, 11:30:42 AM
It wasn't just one congressman supporting it!

And the way the gun lobbyist spotted out the "science" bit

"Children under five also have elevated levels of the pheromone Blink-182, produced by the part of the liver known as the Rita Ora," Pratt says. "This allows nerve reflexes to travel along the Cardi B neural pathway to the Wiz Khalifa 40% faster, saving time and saving lives."

I had to listen to that bit twice as I couldn't believe it the first time.

Astounding and frightening in equal measure.
Brass Eye-esque.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on July 17, 2018, 03:00:08 PM
Four year olds with guns.....what could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GJL on August 02, 2018, 11:25:17 PM
I'm watching this 'who is America' on channel 4. It is hilarious. 😂😂
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on October 27, 2018, 04:13:22 PM
A synagogue in Pittsburgh this morning - multiple fatalities
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on October 27, 2018, 04:23:48 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on October 27, 2018, 04:13:22 PM
A synagogue in Pittsburgh this morning - multiple fatalities

Lone wolf ....
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on October 27, 2018, 04:28:41 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 27, 2018, 04:23:48 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on October 27, 2018, 04:13:22 PM
A synagogue in Pittsburgh this morning - multiple fatalities

Lone wolf ....

If only they had guns with them in the Synagogue...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on October 28, 2018, 01:58:39 AM
Thoughts and prayers from all the the gun advocates and Sympathisers are all they really need.

The fake president
"If they had protection inside the results would have been much better"

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on October 28, 2018, 10:32:06 AM
11 dead, walking into a place of worship and blasting people to death takes some doing
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on October 28, 2018, 11:15:56 AM
I read somewhere that there have been154 mass shootings in the Unuted Loony Sick States of America this year.
NONE carried out by Muslims, Black males or "Illegal" immigrants.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 28, 2018, 01:04:57 PM
Seen this post elsewhere. Is it correct?

America in the past decade has suffered the deadliest:

- synagogue shooting
- mass shooting
- church shooting
- nightclub shooting
- elementary shooting
- high-school shooting
- workplace shooting
- theater shooting
- workplace shooting
- military facility shooting
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on October 28, 2018, 01:22:28 PM
https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1826142891/

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: bennydorano on October 28, 2018, 01:39:22 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 28, 2018, 01:04:57 PM
Seen this post elsewhere. Is it correct?

America in the past decade has suffered the deadliest:

- synagogue shooting
- mass shooting
- church shooting
- nightclub shooting
- elementary shooting
- high-school shooting
- workplace shooting
- theater shooting
- workplace shooting
- military facility shooting
Can't think of an American theatre massacre that was worse than the Bataclan in Paris? Definitely not sure tho.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on October 28, 2018, 11:48:18 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on October 28, 2018, 01:39:22 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 28, 2018, 01:04:57 PM
Seen this post elsewhere. Is it correct?

America in the past decade has suffered the deadliest:

- synagogue shooting
- mass shooting
- church shooting
- nightclub shooting
- elementary shooting
- high-school shooting
- workplace shooting
- theater shooting
- workplace shooting
- military facility shooting
Can't think of an American theatre massacre that was worse than the Bataclan in Paris? Definitely not sure tho.


130 people died that night! Unreal, 90 odd at the theatre
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on November 08, 2018, 04:05:23 PM
28 year old former Marine Ian Long was the shooter
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2018, 04:15:10 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on November 08, 2018, 04:05:23 PM
28 year old former Marine Ian Long was the shooter

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2012/12/15/our-moloch/

Milton represented Moloch as the first pagan god who joined Satan's war on humankind:

First Moloch, horrid king, besmear'd with blood
Of human sacrifice, and parents' tears,
Though for the noise of Drums and Timbrels loud
Their children's cries unheard, that pass'd through fire
To his grim idol. (Paradise Lost 1.392-96)

Read again those lines, with recent images seared into our brains—"besmeared with blood" and "parents' tears." They give the real meaning of what happened at Sandy Hook Elementary School Friday morning. That horror cannot be blamed just on one unhinged person. It was the sacrifice we as a culture made, and continually make, to our demonic god. We guarantee that crazed man after crazed man will have a flood of killing power readily supplied him. We have to make that offering, out of devotion to our Moloch, our god. The gun is our Moloch. We sacrifice children to him daily—sometimes, as at Sandy Hook, by directly throwing them into the fire-hose of bullets from our protected private killing machines, sometimes by blighting our children's lives by the death of a parent, a schoolmate, a teacher, a protector. Sometimes this is done by mass killings (eight this year), sometimes by private offerings to the god (thousands this year).
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on November 08, 2018, 06:21:37 PM
MUUHHHRRR'KAW

Where voting is considered a privilege and not a right.

And where guns are considered a right, not a privilege.

f**k yeah.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2018, 08:23:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 08, 2018, 06:21:37 PM
MUUHHHRRR'KAW

Where voting is considered a privilege and not a right.

And where guns are considered a right, not a privilege.

f**k yeah.
Jim Crow is back
The US has a few STDs on the go
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on November 09, 2018, 09:28:39 PM
Katie Zezima

@katiezez

There is a couple here in Thousand Oaks who lost their daughter in the Aurora movie theater shooting. They now travel the country going to communities that suffer mass shootings and speak with families. They've been to 11, starting with Sandy Hook. "It's hell," one of them said.

https://abc7news.com/amp/her-son-survived-las-vegas-but-died-in-thousand-oaks/4651046/
My son was in Las Vegas with a lot of his friends and he came home. He didn't come home last night and I don't want prayers. I don't want thoughts. I want gun control, and I hope to God nobody sends me anymore prayers. I want gun control" Amen

'Stay in your lane,' NRA tells doctors who want to reduce gun deaths 
(link: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/nra-opens-social-media-war-doctors-over-firearms-n934056)



Judy Melinek M.D.

@drjudymelinek
·


Do you have any idea how many bullets I pull out of corpses weekly? This isn't just my lane. It's my f**king highway.
Quote Tweet
Judy Melinek M.D.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on November 20, 2018, 06:30:02 AM
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnnycool on November 20, 2018, 11:51:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 20, 2018, 06:30:02 AM
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/

Evidently we only really get to hear about those that hit double digits.

There's a lot of 3 or 5 or 6 shot that won't make the international headlines as they're all to common it seems!

Nuts.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on November 21, 2018, 05:59:09 AM
https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2018/11/school-children-lockdown-drills-mass-shooters/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on August 03, 2019, 11:51:43 PM
At least 19 dead in Texas Walmart

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49221936

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gawa316 on August 04, 2019, 02:55:14 AM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on August 03, 2019, 11:51:43 PM
At least 19 dead in Texas Walmart

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49221936

4 dead last weekend at gilroy garlic festival last week.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: RedHand88 on August 04, 2019, 09:27:36 AM
Christ there's another mass shooting. Ohio this time, at least 9 dead. America is wild.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 04, 2019, 10:36:46 AM
Nothing to see here... ::)

Thoughts and prayers... now is not the time...or something... >:(
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on August 05, 2019, 12:41:13 AM
Quote from: J70 on August 04, 2019, 10:36:46 AM
Nothing to see here... ::)

Thoughts and prayers... now is not the time...or something... >:(

Exactly. Anybody tried to make this a political issue would be gobbled up. It's a no go area. There is no something either. Just prayers and move on.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on August 05, 2019, 04:06:09 AM
They always say it's too soon to talk politics after one of these.  But there's been more than one a day of mass shootings (not necessarily fatal, just 4 or more victims) this year.

So...it's always and permanently too soon to talk politically about this issue.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 05, 2019, 05:56:49 AM
Crazy stuff. I was in a Walmart on Saturday morning myself brings it home some what.

These things happen all the time in various guises. A guy in LA killed a random person during the week after some sort of domestic  fallout where he killed his father and brother.

Dunno how it will end or if it's just the normal. Less guns would reduce it for sure but wouldn't solve it completely. But not gonna happen anyway, the change has to some how come from the gun owner community...highly unlikely tho.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on August 05, 2019, 10:12:30 AM
These shootings are Terrorist Outrages but because most are carried out by white skinned Trump supporters they cant be called that and there cant be any emergency legislation to stop it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 05, 2019, 10:31:19 AM
From left leaning Vox:

https://www.vox.com/2015/10/1/18000524/mass-shootings-rare
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on August 05, 2019, 04:12:09 PM
https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/national-international/Mother-victim-El-Paso-Walmart-Shooting-519603061.html?akmobile=o

"An El Paso mom shielded her baby from the terrorist. Her husband shielded them both

Both parents died—their baby survived. Now three children are orphans (2mo, 2 yrs, 5 yrs)"

how pointless is that ?

40,000 dead per year
Add 200,000 Fentanyl overdoses including Prince and Tom Petty
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on August 05, 2019, 04:23:20 PM
It's time America wised up.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Muck Savage on August 05, 2019, 04:34:04 PM
I've said it a few times before but don't expect any changes. If grown adults that have been elected into office did not do anything after Sandy Hook where 26 people were kill, 20 of them children either 6 or 7 years old, then nothing will be done by there people.
I've contemplated leaving this country multiple times as the shootings become more frequent and all the closer. The Gilroy shooting last week was 30mins from me and a festival I've brought my wife and kids to in the past. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 05, 2019, 04:34:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 05, 2019, 04:12:09 PM
https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/national-international/Mother-victim-El-Paso-Walmart-Shooting-519603061.html?akmobile=o

"An El Paso mom shielded her baby from the terrorist. Her husband shielded them both

Both parents died—their baby survived. Now three children are orphans (2mo, 2 yrs, 5 yrs)"

how pointless is that ?

40,000 dead per year
Add 200,000 Fentanyl overdoses including Prince and Tom Petty

But at least the average paranoid Johnny Sixpack is free to stockpile military-style weapons for when the government helicopters come over the ridge.

Those lives are just the cost of freedom!   ::)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 05, 2019, 04:40:36 PM
A couple of weeks ago, Ted Cruz and Trump were on about designating Antifa as a terrorist outfit.

Any such murmurings from them on far right types?

Can you imagine the uproar from them if these had been leftist atrocities?

Or heaven forbid, Islamic terrorists who had travelled ten hours across the state to carry out a mass murder?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: RedHand88 on August 05, 2019, 05:06:20 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 05, 2019, 04:40:36 PM
A couple of weeks ago, Ted Cruz and Trump were on about designating Antifa as a terrorist outfit.

Any such murmurings from them on far right types?

Can you imagine the uproar from them if these had been leftist atrocities?

Or heaven forbid, Islamic terrorists who had travelled ten hours across the state to carry out a mass murder?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49240310
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 05, 2019, 06:01:45 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 05, 2019, 05:06:20 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 05, 2019, 04:40:36 PM
A couple of weeks ago, Ted Cruz and Trump were on about designating Antifa as a terrorist outfit.

Any such murmurings from them on far right types?

Can you imagine the uproar from them if these had been leftist atrocities?

Or heaven forbid, Islamic terrorists who had travelled ten hours across the state to carry out a mass murder?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49240310

Sorry, but I'm not impressed.

Not a word about restricting access to guns, including military-style weapons, for which there is no sensible justification outside of defense forces unit.

Hollow words about white supremacy and bullshit about the media, but not a word about his own, for political purposes, fomentation of hostility towards minorities and, specifically, the very people targeted in El Paso.

If video games are such a problem (and some may well be unhealthy), why are mass shootings not happening all over the rest of the planet?? I'm pretty sure my kid would probably still have his Nintendo Switch if he lived in Donegal or Canada.

He's proposing some "red flag" solution. Good luck with that the first time someone brings a case to the Supreme Court for being singled out unjustifiably.

Mental health, video games, simple halfwitted bigotry - that shit exists everywhere. Forunately for the rest of the planet, easy access to an arsenal of your own choice from either down the street or across the river in the next state does not exist.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on August 05, 2019, 07:45:24 PM
You never change stupid, you and the American public in general must be stupid to let this continue every year. I think the top 5 worst shootings in America has happened in the last 3yrs. The right to bear arms seems to be the issue. Let them have all the arms they want, ban the bullets, don't think that's covered by in the 2nd amendment.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gawa316 on August 05, 2019, 09:26:20 PM
My facebook feed is full of 'There's only one way to stop a bad guy with a gun, and that's a good guy with a gun' crap, and these are of parents my kids go to school with...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on August 05, 2019, 09:29:14 PM
« No matter how well written or delivered a speech cannot divert whole societies from a well established course of action. Policies in motion tend to stay in motion ; to change the trajectory of a deeply embedded set of initiatives requires the application of political forces of equal motion »

Steve Walt

https://youtu.be/wbii77EPHgg

Shannon Watts

@shannonrwatts
·
4h

BREAKING: Chris Cox, the heir apparent to
@NRA
CEO Wayne LaPierre and chief architect of the gun lobby's insidious state strategy to loosen gun laws, has resigned after nearly 20 years with the organization.

Shannon Watts

@shannonrwatts
· 3h
BREAKING: Both NRATV and ‪@NRA‬ spokeswoman Dana Loesch are over.

"While the ‪@NRA‬ may continue to air past content, its live broadcasting has ended and its on-air personalities — including Dana Loesch — will no longer be the public faces of the NRA."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/25/us/nra-nratv-ackerman-mcqueen.html)

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: RedHand88 on August 05, 2019, 09:32:11 PM
I didn't even realise nratv was a thing. What is wrong with these people.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on August 05, 2019, 09:35:21 PM
The gun homicide rate in the US is 73 times higher than that in the UK, and 111 times higher than that of Japan.

I'm pretty sure these places have video games.

But Trump says video games are the problem.

I think it might just be the guns that are the problem.

And of course his openly racist rhetoric.



Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 05, 2019, 09:45:50 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 05, 2019, 09:35:21 PM
The gun homicide rate in the US is 73 times higher than that in the UK, and 111 times higher than that of Japan.

I'm pretty sure these places have video games.

But Trump says video games are the problem.

I think it might just be the guns that are the problem.

And of course his openly racist rhetoric.
m


We've hashed and rehashed this 1,000,000 times

The numbers you quote are nonsense. As a white male living in Massachusetts the gun homicide rate is a fraction of what you put up. In fact, the town I grew up in Ireland has had more murders than the town I currently reside in......and the town I currently reside in probably has 2000 people with valid gun permits

https://everytownresearch.org/gun-violence-america/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 05, 2019, 09:56:25 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 05, 2019, 09:46:43 PM
Quote from: gawa316 on August 05, 2019, 09:26:20 PM
My facebook feed is full of 'There's only one way to stop a bad guy with a gun, and that's a good guy with a gun' crap, and these are of parents my kids go to school with...
Given that the incident which claimed 22 lives happened in a Walmart in Texas, it's almost certain that at least some people in the vicinity were loaded with open carry or concealed carry. Since the shooter was arrested and seemingly unharmed, this idea of "good guy with a gun" was, without trying to sound blasé, a major fail.

The Walmart was specifically targeted due to its demographics-ie immigrants. They would be much, much less likely to be carrying  than a Budweiser drinking, pick up driving "local". But I completely agree with you, the good guy with a gun argument is pure nonsense
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 05, 2019, 11:07:16 PM
Quote from: gawa316 on August 05, 2019, 09:26:20 PM
My facebook feed is full of 'There's only one way to stop a bad guy with a gun, and that's a good guy with a gun' crap, and these are of parents my kids go to school with...

Apparently there were a few gun carriers in Walmart.

One said he didn't engage because he was afraid the cops would think HE was a shooter.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gawa316 on August 05, 2019, 11:30:26 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 05, 2019, 11:07:16 PM
Quote from: gawa316 on August 05, 2019, 09:26:20 PM
My facebook feed is full of 'There's only one way to stop a bad guy with a gun, and that's a good guy with a gun' crap, and these are of parents my kids go to school with...

Apparently there were a few gun carriers in Walmart.

One said he didn't engage because he was afraid the cops would think HE was a shooter.

It just sounds all a bit wild west to me, but then I never grew up here or had the 2nd amendment drilled into me
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 05, 2019, 11:39:55 PM
Well at this rate it's better to just let it carry on as is. No amount of prayers or condolences will help, the sooner they wipe themselves out the better. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on August 06, 2019, 12:10:21 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2019, 09:45:50 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 05, 2019, 09:35:21 PM
The gun homicide rate in the US is 73 times higher than that in the UK, and 111 times higher than that of Japan.

I'm pretty sure these places have video games.

But Trump says video games are the problem.

I think it might just be the guns that are the problem.

And of course his openly racist rhetoric.
m


We've hashed and rehashed this 1,000,000 times

The numbers you quote are nonsense. As a white male living in Massachusetts the gun homicide rate is a fraction of what you put up. In fact, the town I grew up in Ireland has had more murders than the town I currently reside in......and the town I currently reside in probably has 2000 people with valid gun permits

https://everytownresearch.org/gun-violence-america/

Yet you've done absolutely nothing to diispute my figures.

Presumably you think calling immigrants "snakes" does nothing to incite violence either.

But as a dedicated kool aid drinker, you would, wouldn't you.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on August 06, 2019, 12:12:44 AM
Quote from: J70 on August 05, 2019, 04:40:36 PM
A couple of weeks ago, Ted Cruz and Trump were on about designating Antifa as a terrorist outfit.

Any such murmurings from them on far right types?
Nah, they're too busy downgrading white supremacist terrorism as a threat
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 06, 2019, 01:54:47 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 06, 2019, 12:10:21 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2019, 09:45:50 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 05, 2019, 09:35:21 PM
The gun homicide rate in the US is 73 times higher than that in the UK, and 111 times higher than that of Japan.

I'm pretty sure these places have video games.

But Trump says video games are the problem.

I think it might just be the guns that are the problem.

And of course his openly racist rhetoric.
m


We've hashed and rehashed this 1,000,000 times

The numbers you quote are nonsense. As a white male living in Massachusetts the gun homicide rate is a fraction of what you put up. In fact, the town I grew up in Ireland has had more murders than the town I currently reside in......and the town I currently reside in probably has 2000 people with valid gun permits

https://everytownresearch.org/gun-violence-america/

Yet you've done absolutely nothing to diispute my figures.

Presumably you think calling immigrants "snakes" does nothing to incite violence either.

But as a dedicated kool aid drinker, you would, wouldn't you.

The death rate by firearm for a white person in Massachusetts is 3.3 per 100,000

Most of the murders nationwide occur in inner city neighborhoods where it wouldn't be safe for a white person to tread, night or day. eg IL rate for a white person is 7.2 per 100, 000. For African Americans it is 39.2.

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-by-raceethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&selectedDistributions=white--black&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D

How different would Irelands murder statistics be, if you took Dublin out of the equation. Does including the Kinahan and Hutch murders pain an accurate picture of what happens in Belmullet ot Gortahawk or Ballinaspittle
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on August 06, 2019, 09:55:37 AM
Again "whitey" does nothing to challenge my figures and advances "far right talking points" which refuse to deal with the issues

Far right white terrorism is NOT a problem says "whitey", Trump's rhetoric comparing non-white immigrants to snakes and calling them rapists etc. is NOT a problem - it's the blacks and their inherent inferiority, or something something

You could set your watch by his far right racist responses

Brainwashing is a terrible thing and we see today exactly how the Nazis triumphed and how far useful idiots will go to defend mass murder and the things that cause it - because the far right today uses exactly the same techniques




Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on August 06, 2019, 10:32:26 AM
How many mass shootings are there in Ireland Whitey? American access to guns is the real problem.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on August 06, 2019, 11:53:49 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 06, 2019, 10:32:26 AM
How many mass shootings are there in Ireland Whitey? American access to guns is the real problem.
The real problem is the centrality of the NRA to the GOP worldview
After Reagan broke the unions the right built an emotional identity for blue collar voters based on guns, "freedom" and markets.
Since then those people have been pauperised. It is a mess

Add in campaign finance

Top NRA funding for GOP senators

Sen. Burr: $6.9M
Sen. Blunt: $4.5M
Sen. Tillis: $4.4M
Sen. Gardner: $3.8M
Sen. Rubio: $3.3M
Sen. Ernst: $3.1M
Sen. Portman: $3M
Sen. Young: $2.8M
Sen. Cassidy: $2.8M
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on August 06, 2019, 12:08:29 PM
They talk about people being "seriously mentally unwell". I would counsel that those who are in fact "seriously mentally unwell" are those very people who say that Gun control is not the issue.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 06, 2019, 12:09:18 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 06, 2019, 10:32:26 AM
How many mass shootings are there in Ireland Whitey? American access to guns is the real problem.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/10/1/18000524/mass-shootings-rare

There has been a rash of heavily publicized mass shootings in recent years. But those incidents, while tragic, are a tiny sliver of America's gun homicide problem. Mayors Against Illegal Guns, analyzing FBI data, found that fewer than 1 percent of homicide victims in 2010 were killed in incidents where four or more people died.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnnycool on August 06, 2019, 12:24:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 06, 2019, 12:09:18 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 06, 2019, 10:32:26 AM
How many mass shootings are there in Ireland Whitey? American access to guns is the real problem.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/10/1/18000524/mass-shootings-rare

There has been a rash of heavily publicized mass shootings in recent years. But those incidents, while tragic, are a tiny sliver of America's gun homicide problem. Mayors Against Illegal Guns, analyzing FBI data, found that fewer than 1 percent of homicide victims in 2010 were killed in incidents where four or more people died.

Well that's not so bad then.

There's so many other "3 or less" killings that these mass shootings are not an issue.

In 2016 there were 14K people killed with guns, but only 71 were mass shootings.

Move along now, nothing to see here.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on August 06, 2019, 12:27:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 06, 2019, 12:09:18 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 06, 2019, 10:32:26 AM
How many mass shootings are there in Ireland Whitey? American access to guns is the real problem.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/10/1/18000524/mass-shootings-rare

There has been a rash of heavily publicized mass shootings in recent years. But those incidents, while tragic, are a tiny sliver of America's gun homicide problem. Mayors Against Illegal Guns, analyzing FBI data, found that fewer than 1 percent of homicide victims in 2010 were killed in incidents where four or more people died.

Mass shootings are not rare anymore . . . there have been 248 of them this year (hardly rare) so far why are you using out dated info from 10 years ago??

Just because more people die from single gun related incidents than from a mass shooting doesn't make the gun problem any less. . . strange posting from you whitey you're usually better than that at least!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on August 06, 2019, 12:36:55 PM
You know what, I'd probably have more respect for people who said that guns and access to them were the problem but that they enjoyed guns and felt all these deaths were a price worth paying. At least they would be honest. Granted they're fucked up in head, but at least they would be honest.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 06, 2019, 01:25:45 PM
Quote from: Peter LaFleur on August 06, 2019, 01:02:49 PM
The Ohio shooter posted this strange video on youtube earlier this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUf3Km8LH7c

Jaysus lad ... give a NSFW warning at least!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 06, 2019, 01:34:00 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 06, 2019, 01:25:45 PM
Quote from: Peter LaFleur on August 06, 2019, 01:02:49 PM
The Ohio shooter posted this strange video on youtube earlier this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUf3Km8LH7c

Jaysus lad ... give a NSFW warning at least!

During lunch too  :-[
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 06, 2019, 06:41:32 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 06, 2019, 12:27:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 06, 2019, 12:09:18 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 06, 2019, 10:32:26 AM
How many mass shootings are there in Ireland Whitey? American access to guns is the real problem.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/10/1/18000524/mass-shootings-rare

There has been a rash of heavily publicized mass shootings in recent years. But those incidents, while tragic, are a tiny sliver of America's gun homicide problem. Mayors Against Illegal Guns, analyzing FBI data, found that fewer than 1 percent of homicide victims in 2010 were killed in incidents where four or more people died.

Mass shootings are not rare anymore . . . there have been 248 of them this year (hardly rare) so far why are you using out dated info from 10 years ago??

Just because more people die from single gun related incidents than from a mass shooting doesn't make the gun problem any less. . . strange posting from you whitey you're usually better than that at least!!
[/quote


Is that article not from 2018?

While the mass shootings get all the press, most (95%+) gun deaths are not mass shootings and most gun deaths are carried out by people with revolvers not assault weapons. If you confiscated every assault weapon in the country it would have minimal to zero impact.

Trump is a clown and I hate him, but the Democrats trying to pin the blame on him directly for these shootings is pure nonsense. The Ohio shooter was an Elizabeth Warren/Antigua supporter. The guy who shot up the Republican Congressional baseball game was a Bernie supporter


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 06, 2019, 06:47:49 PM
This bears repeating:

(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a66dae_f06c0a3107004a67b72b10677345555d~mv2_d_2000_4526_s_2.png)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on August 06, 2019, 06:54:48 PM
White supremacism is a threat that is every bit as bad and worse as ISIS.

They use exactly the same tactics, they carry out exactly the same sort of terrorist atrocities.

Yet ISIS have never had mainstream politicians going to bat for them like white supremacists have Trump and the Republican party and assorted other demagogues and mainstream media throughout Europe and the world going to bat for them.

Until the right in general comes to terms with the fact that they inciting and encouraging terrorism, nothing will change.

That won't be any time soon, sadly.



Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 06, 2019, 06:56:50 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 06, 2019, 06:54:48 PM
White supremacism is a threat that is every bit as bad and worse as ISIS.

They use exactly the same tactics, they carry out exactly the same sort of terrorist atrocities.

Yet ISIS have never had mainstream politicians going to bat for them like white supremacists have Trump and the Republican party and assorted other demagogues and mainstream media throughout Europe and the world going to bat for them.

Until the right in general comes to terms with the fact that they inciting and encouraging terrorism, nothing will change.

That won't be any time soon, sadly.

Time to stop watching CNN
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 06, 2019, 10:05:33 PM
Mass shooters with leftist political agendas are rare. Most of those with political axes to grind are either Muslim or far right. Even taking the example of the guy who shot up the baseball game and almost killed Steve Scalise, was there any Dem politician out there encouraging violence against GOP politicians? Trump is building his re-election campaign on the "infestation" of the US with Hispanic invaders, drug dealers, murderers and rapists. He has championed policies which treat asylum seekers as subhuman. He has encouraged violence in his rallies. Two weeks ago he laughed at a Florida panhandle speech attendee who suggested shooting illegal border crossers. Did he mean that he wants people killed? Probably not. Did Ian Paisley deserve blame when loyalist paramilitaries acted out the worst interpretations of his rhetoric? Should politicians not be accountable for their rhetoric and the effect it can have on the public discourse and mood?

And getting back to the left/right divide, even if an equal or even larger share of politically motivated mass murders were leftist, it is still primarily liberal politicians who want to deal with the problem honestly and introduce proper curbs on ownership of what are ludicrous weapons for any non-professional soldier or security professional to own
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 06, 2019, 10:54:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 06, 2019, 10:05:33 PM
Mass shooters with leftist political agendas are rare. Most of those with political axes to grind are either Muslim or far right. Even taking the example of the guy who shot up the baseball game and almost killed Steve Scalise, was there any Dem politician out there encouraging violence against GOP politicians? Trump is building his re-election campaign on the "infestation" of the US with Hispanic invaders, drug dealers, murderers and rapists. He has championed policies which treat asylum seekers as subhuman. He has encouraged violence in his rallies. Two weeks ago he laughed at a Florida panhandle speech attendee who suggested shooting illegal border crossers. Did he mean that he wants people killed? Probably not. Did Ian Paisley deserve blame when loyalist paramilitaries acted out the worst interpretations of his rhetoric? Should politicians not be accountable for their rhetoric and the effect it can have on the public discourse and mood?

And getting back to the left/right divide, even if an equal or even larger share of politically motivated mass murders were leftist, it is still primarily liberal politicians who want to deal with the problem honestly and introduce proper curbs on ownership of what are ludicrous weapons for any non-professional soldier or security professional to own

Indeed. The GOP and their Fox News cheerleaders have openly embraced the right wing terrorist agenda and the Timothy McVeigh types. Democrats are openly opposed to violence or violent rhetoric, but if one left-leaning rando gives someone a dirty look then the right pounces on it as evidence that "both sides are equally as bad," which is utter horsesh1t.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on August 07, 2019, 01:20:19 AM
Quote from: J70 on August 06, 2019, 10:05:33 PM
Mass shooters with leftist political agendas are rare. Most of those with political axes to grind are either Muslim or far right. Even taking the example of the guy who shot up the baseball game and almost killed Steve Scalise, was there any Dem politician out there encouraging violence against GOP politicians? Trump is building his re-election campaign on the "infestation" of the US with Hispanic invaders, drug dealers, murderers and rapists. He has championed policies which treat asylum seekers as subhuman. He has encouraged violence in his rallies. Two weeks ago he laughed at a Florida panhandle speech attendee who suggested shooting illegal border crossers. Did he mean that he wants people killed? Probably not. Did Ian Paisley deserve blame when loyalist paramilitaries acted out the worst interpretations of his rhetoric? Should politicians not be accountable for their rhetoric and the effect it can have on the public discourse and mood?

And getting back to the left/right divide, even if an equal or even larger share of politically motivated mass murders were leftist, it is still primarily liberal politicians who want to deal with the problem honestly and introduce proper curbs on ownership of what are ludicrous weapons for any non-professional soldier or security professional to own

In relation to the bolded bit, of course there wasn't. No Democratic politician remotely encourages violence, not least Bernie Sanders.

Of course that never stops Republicans from using Nazi-like propaganda to try and mendaciously tar their opponents with the very thing they themselves are squarely guilty of - inciting hatred and violence.

The entire Republican strategy is fascist propaganda techniques 101 - destroy the very concept of reality.

Their chief cheerleader here is a good example of this.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on August 07, 2019, 01:22:58 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 06, 2019, 10:54:24 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 06, 2019, 10:05:33 PM
Mass shooters with leftist political agendas are rare. Most of those with political axes to grind are either Muslim or far right. Even taking the example of the guy who shot up the baseball game and almost killed Steve Scalise, was there any Dem politician out there encouraging violence against GOP politicians? Trump is building his re-election campaign on the "infestation" of the US with Hispanic invaders, drug dealers, murderers and rapists. He has championed policies which treat asylum seekers as subhuman. He has encouraged violence in his rallies. Two weeks ago he laughed at a Florida panhandle speech attendee who suggested shooting illegal border crossers. Did he mean that he wants people killed? Probably not. Did Ian Paisley deserve blame when loyalist paramilitaries acted out the worst interpretations of his rhetoric? Should politicians not be accountable for their rhetoric and the effect it can have on the public discourse and mood?

And getting back to the left/right divide, even if an equal or even larger share of politically motivated mass murders were leftist, it is still primarily liberal politicians who want to deal with the problem honestly and introduce proper curbs on ownership of what are ludicrous weapons for any non-professional soldier or security professional to own

Indeed. The GOP and their Fox News cheerleaders have openly embraced the right wing terrorist agenda and the Timothy McVeigh types. Democrats are openly opposed to violence or violent rhetoric, but if one left-leaning rando gives someone a dirty look then the right pounces on it as evidence that "both sides are equally as bad," which is utter horsesh1t.

Tucker Carlson, Hannity and Laura Ingraham are open white supremacists.

This is extremely long, but then again Tucker Carlson has been a white supremacist for a very long time.

https://www.mediamatters.org/tucker-carlson/tucker-carlsons-descent-white-supremacy-timeline
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on August 07, 2019, 01:52:59 AM
Here's white supremacist Tucker Carlson half an hour ago calling white supremacism "a hoax":

https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1158896220309512192

The US is in full blown Goebbels territory and it is an existential threat to US democracy and the lives of minorities

It is tragic

It really can happen there, because it is happening
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 07, 2019, 02:25:07 AM
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry

People affiliated with the Clinton campaign PAID agitators to go in and disrupt Trump rally's and INTENTIONALLY PROVOKE people to react

Trumps rally in Chicago was actuallY SHUT DOWN by CPD given the level of violence perpetrated by Bernie's supporters outside

You ever see that video of the woman out in California being swarmed and assaulted by an aggressive mob?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uWIMt9JxugQ

And the attacks by Antifa are just too numerous to list-including a "philosophy professor" smashing seven people over the head with a bicycle lock


https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/08/eric-clanton-takes-3-year-probation-deal-in-berkeley-rally-bike-lock-assault-case

But believe whatever you want....life will be easier for you that way
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on August 07, 2019, 02:35:02 AM
Go shit in a hat, Goebbels.

Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 02:25:07 AM
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry


Probably laugh, I'd say. At the victims of white supremacist terrorism.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 07, 2019, 02:46:22 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 07, 2019, 02:35:02 AM
Go shit in a hat, Goebbels.

Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 02:25:07 AM
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry


Probably laugh, I'd say. At the victims of white supremacist terrorism.

I think I found you a home

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IdQ4vqCWYTw
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on August 07, 2019, 10:48:42 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 02:25:07 AM
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry

People affiliated with the Clinton campaign PAID agitators to go in and disrupt Trump rally's and INTENTIONALLY PROVOKE people to react

Trumps rally in Chicago was actuallY SHUT DOWN by CPD given the level of violence perpetrated by Bernie's supporters outside

You ever see that video of the woman out in California being swarmed and assaulted by an aggressive mob?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uWIMt9JxugQ

And the attacks by Antifa are just too numerous to list-including a "philosophy professor" smashing seven people over the head with a bicycle lock


https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/08/eric-clanton-takes-3-year-probation-deal-in-berkeley-rally-bike-lock-assault-case

But believe whatever you want....life will be easier for you that way

This is all made up lies.
The agitators were paid by the Trump camp to disrupt so they could blame it on the an outside influence and stoke his own supporter base.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 07, 2019, 11:47:11 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 07, 2019, 10:48:42 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 02:25:07 AM
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry

People affiliated with the Clinton campaign PAID agitators to go in and disrupt Trump rally's and INTENTIONALLY PROVOKE people to react

Trumps rally in Chicago was actuallY SHUT DOWN by CPD given the level of violence perpetrated by Bernie's supporters outside

You ever see that video of the woman out in California being swarmed and assaulted by an aggressive mob?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uWIMt9JxugQ

And the attacks by Antifa are just too numerous to list-including a "philosophy professor" smashing seven people over the head with a bicycle lock


https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/08/eric-clanton-takes-3-year-probation-deal-in-berkeley-rally-bike-lock-assault-case

But believe whatever you want....life will be easier for you that way

This is all made up lies.
The agitators were paid by the Trump camp to disrupt so they could blame it on the an outside influence and stoke his own supporter base.


Read your history buck

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2016/10/20/us/politics/dnc-video-trump-rallies.amp.html

"Two operatives who were working with the Democratic National Committee to help elect Hillary Clinton are no longer working in that role after an undercover video appeared to show them plotting to incite violence at Donald J. Trump's rallies."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on August 07, 2019, 11:51:37 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 11:47:11 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 07, 2019, 10:48:42 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 02:25:07 AM
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry

People affiliated with the Clinton campaign PAID agitators to go in and disrupt Trump rally's and INTENTIONALLY PROVOKE people to react

Trumps rally in Chicago was actuallY SHUT DOWN by CPD given the level of violence perpetrated by Bernie's supporters outside

You ever see that video of the woman out in California being swarmed and assaulted by an aggressive mob?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uWIMt9JxugQ

And the attacks by Antifa are just too numerous to list-including a "philosophy professor" smashing seven people over the head with a bicycle lock


https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/08/eric-clanton-takes-3-year-probation-deal-in-berkeley-rally-bike-lock-assault-case

But believe whatever you want....life will be easier for you that way

This is all made up lies.
The agitators were paid by the Trump camp to disrupt so they could blame it on the an outside influence and stoke his own supporter base.


Read your history buck

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2016/10/20/us/politics/dnc-video-trump-rallies.amp.html

"Two operatives who were working with the Democratic National Committee to help elect Hillary Clinton are no longer working in that role after an undercover video appeared to show them plotting to incite violence at Donald J. Trump's rallies."

New York times. YAWN! FAKE NEWS!!
Please find a more reliable newspaper to get your information.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 07, 2019, 11:57:09 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 07, 2019, 11:51:37 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 11:47:11 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 07, 2019, 10:48:42 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 02:25:07 AM
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry

People affiliated with the Clinton campaign PAID agitators to go in and disrupt Trump rally's and INTENTIONALLY PROVOKE people to react

Trumps rally in Chicago was actuallY SHUT DOWN by CPD given the level of violence perpetrated by Bernie's supporters outside

You ever see that video of the woman out in California being swarmed and assaulted by an aggressive mob?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uWIMt9JxugQ

And the attacks by Antifa are just too numerous to list-including a "philosophy professor" smashing seven people over the head with a bicycle lock


https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/08/eric-clanton-takes-3-year-probation-deal-in-berkeley-rally-bike-lock-assault-case

But believe whatever you want....life will be easier for you that way

This is all made up lies.
The agitators were paid by the Trump camp to disrupt so they could blame it on the an outside influence and stoke his own supporter base.


Read your history buck

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2016/10/20/us/politics/dnc-video-trump-rallies.amp.html

"Two operatives who were working with the Democratic National Committee to help elect Hillary Clinton are no longer working in that role after an undercover video appeared to show them plotting to incite violence at Donald J. Trump's rallies."

New York times. YAWN! FAKE NEWS!!
Please find a more reliable newspaper to get your information.

Believe whatever you want my man.....it happened and was widely reported

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on August 07, 2019, 11:59:47 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 07, 2019, 01:52:59 AM
Here's white supremacist Tucker Carlson half an hour ago calling white supremacism "a hoax":

https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1158896220309512192

The US is in full blown Goebbels territory and it is an existential threat to US democracy and the lives of minorities

It is tragic

It really can happen there, because it is happening

Tucker Carlson

https://mobile.twitter.com/peltzmadeline/status/1075858704812003328

Some interesting history


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/emerging-republican-majority/595504/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on August 07, 2019, 12:08:15 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/howroute/status/1127273020744245249

David Livingstone Smith, a philosophy professor at the University of New England and the author of a book on dehumanisation of whole categories of people, said Trump had emboldened Americans whose views were seen as unacceptable in everyday society not long ago.
"This has always been part of American life," he said. "But Trump has given people permission to say what they think. And that's crack cocaine. That's powerful. When someone allows you to be authentic, that's a very, very potent thing. People have come out of the shadows."

Along the way, Trump has empowered groups like the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which has been designated a hate group by the liberal Southern Poverty Law Center. He has become a reliable megaphone for anti-immigrant screeds carried by Breitbart News and Lou Dobbs on the Fox Business Network.
While the police in Ohio said they were still looking into the motive of the Dayton gunman, the El Paso killings were quickly linked to politics. In the 2,300-word manifesto tied by the police to Patrick Crusius, the suspect in the El Paso shooting, he said he was "simply defending my country from cultural and ethnic replacement brought on by an invasion".



Jon Cryer

@MrJonCryer
·
3h

"Upholding western civilization" was the phrase most often used by white supremacists to defend their actions during the civil rights era.

There is exactly zero chance that Stephen Miller is unaware of that.
Quote Tweet

TPM Livewire

@TPMLiveWire
· 12h
Stephen Miller claims the difference between Trump's criticism of the US and "the squad"'s is that Trump is uphold "the principles of Western civilization"

https://mobile.twitter.com/TPMLiveWire/status/1152949924348215297


Judd Legum

@JuddLegum

Tucker Carlson said "white men" deserve credit for "creating civilization"

He described Iraqis as "semiliterate primitive monkeys"

He said the Congressional Black Caucus "exists to blame the white man for everything"

https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2019/03/11/unearthed-audio-shows-tucker-carlson-using-white-nationalist-rhetoric-and-making-racist-remarks/223105

It's all white nationalist rhetoric

WH bashes media: "Never seen people so happy to destroy a kid's life"
(link: http://bit.ly/2WfbDFQ)
bit.ly/2WfbDFQ


#TheResistance

@SocialPowerOne1
·
7h

Rush Limbaugh: Covington Catholic kids are "the epitome" of what "used to be defined as 'normal' in America"

Actress Alyssa Milano faces backlash on social media after saying "The red MAGA hat is the new white hood"


Chris Hayes

@chrislhayes
·
19h

I haven't seen the broad conservative coalition as fired up about a story since Kavanaugh. Pretty interesting.

Catherine Walsh

@gurriersread
·
6m

"The clash in Washington between pro Trump Catholic boys, Native Americans and a supremacist group becomes the symbol of the country's fracture and the incendiary role of social networks

By Sunday, after Covington Catholic High School and the Diocese of Covington apologized in a joint statement, some families of the school's students said they were receiving death threats. On Tuesday, the high school was closed because of "threats of violence and the possibility of large crowds."

More videos have shown that the encounter was preceded by taunting from a small group of dark-skinned men who shouted scripture from red books and identified as Hebrew Israelites. The group directed insults at the Native Americans and the Covington Catholic High School students, who were mostly white.
Students said that after the confrontation with the Hebrew Israelites, they began doing school spirit chants. But those participating in the Indigenous Peoples March — noting the high school group's large size, loud chanting and Make America Great Again apparel — said they interpreted the behavior as aggressive and disruptive to their demonstration.


Inside the GM plant where nooses and 'whites-only' signs hung

https://edition-m.cnn.com/2019/01/16/us/gm-toledo-racism-lawsuit/index.html
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on August 07, 2019, 12:15:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 11:57:09 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 07, 2019, 11:51:37 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 11:47:11 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 07, 2019, 10:48:42 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 02:25:07 AM
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry

People affiliated with the Clinton campaign PAID agitators to go in and disrupt Trump rally's and INTENTIONALLY PROVOKE people to react

Trumps rally in Chicago was actuallY SHUT DOWN by CPD given the level of violence perpetrated by Bernie's supporters outside

You ever see that video of the woman out in California being swarmed and assaulted by an aggressive mob?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uWIMt9JxugQ

And the attacks by Antifa are just too numerous to list-including a "philosophy professor" smashing seven people over the head with a bicycle lock


https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/08/eric-clanton-takes-3-year-probation-deal-in-berkeley-rally-bike-lock-assault-case

But believe whatever you want....life will be easier for you that way

This is all made up lies.
The agitators were paid by the Trump camp to disrupt so they could blame it on the an outside influence and stoke his own supporter base.


Read your history buck

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2016/10/20/us/politics/dnc-video-trump-rallies.amp.html

"Two operatives who were working with the Democratic National Committee to help elect Hillary Clinton are no longer working in that role after an undercover video appeared to show them plotting to incite violence at Donald J. Trump's rallies."

New York times. YAWN! FAKE NEWS!!
Please find a more reliable newspaper to get your information.

Believe whatever you want my man.....it happened and was widely reported

You haven't even produced any evidence.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 07, 2019, 12:27:07 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 07, 2019, 12:15:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 11:57:09 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 07, 2019, 11:51:37 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 11:47:11 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 07, 2019, 10:48:42 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 02:25:07 AM
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry

People affiliated with the Clinton campaign PAID agitators to go in and disrupt Trump rally's and INTENTIONALLY PROVOKE people to react

Trumps rally in Chicago was actuallY SHUT DOWN by CPD given the level of violence perpetrated by Bernie's supporters outside

You ever see that video of the woman out in California being swarmed and assaulted by an aggressive mob?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uWIMt9JxugQ

And the attacks by Antifa are just too numerous to list-including a "philosophy professor" smashing seven people over the head with a bicycle lock


https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/08/eric-clanton-takes-3-year-probation-deal-in-berkeley-rally-bike-lock-assault-case

But believe whatever you want....life will be easier for you that way

This is all made up lies.
The agitators were paid by the Trump camp to disrupt so they could blame it on the an outside influence and stoke his own supporter base.


Read your history buck

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2016/10/20/us/politics/dnc-video-trump-rallies.amp.html

"Two operatives who were working with the Democratic National Committee to help elect Hillary Clinton are no longer working in that role after an undercover video appeared to show them plotting to incite violence at Donald J. Trump's rallies."

New York times. YAWN! FAKE NEWS!!
Please find a more reliable newspaper to get your information.

Believe whatever you want my man.....it happened and was widely reported

You haven't even produced any evidence.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on August 07, 2019, 02:21:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 12:27:07 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 07, 2019, 12:15:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 11:57:09 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 07, 2019, 11:51:37 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 11:47:11 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 07, 2019, 10:48:42 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 02:25:07 AM
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry

People affiliated with the Clinton campaign PAID agitators to go in and disrupt Trump rally's and INTENTIONALLY PROVOKE people to react

Trumps rally in Chicago was actuallY SHUT DOWN by CPD given the level of violence perpetrated by Bernie's supporters outside

You ever see that video of the woman out in California being swarmed and assaulted by an aggressive mob?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uWIMt9JxugQ

And the attacks by Antifa are just too numerous to list-including a "philosophy professor" smashing seven people over the head with a bicycle lock


https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/08/eric-clanton-takes-3-year-probation-deal-in-berkeley-rally-bike-lock-assault-case

But believe whatever you want....life will be easier for you that way

This is all made up lies.
The agitators were paid by the Trump camp to disrupt so they could blame it on the an outside influence and stoke his own supporter base.


Read your history buck

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2016/10/20/us/politics/dnc-video-trump-rallies.amp.html

"Two operatives who were working with the Democratic National Committee to help elect Hillary Clinton are no longer working in that role after an undercover video appeared to show them plotting to incite violence at Donald J. Trump's rallies."

New York times. YAWN! FAKE NEWS!!
Please find a more reliable newspaper to get your information.

Believe whatever you want my man.....it happened and was widely reported

You haven't even produced any evidence.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Typical response from the sheep.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on August 07, 2019, 02:34:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 12:27:07 PM

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Quite. If ever a post accurately summed up the poster who made it and their "arguments", this is the one.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 07, 2019, 02:55:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 07, 2019, 02:34:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 12:27:07 PM

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Quite. If ever a post accurately summed up the poster who made it and their "arguments", this is the one.

Believe what you want. It will lead to a happy life
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on August 07, 2019, 06:16:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 02:55:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 07, 2019, 02:34:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2019, 12:27:07 PM

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Quite. If ever a post accurately summed up the poster who made it and their "arguments", this is the one.

Believe what you want. It will lead to a happy life
In your case a lobotomy has led to a happy life.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 08, 2019, 12:37:41 AM
So now that Whitey-supremacist has come as close as he is ever likely to get to admitting defeat, what do we do now? Boycott him? Everyone put him on ignore? It's hard to have a serious discussion about this kind of thing when someone on the board is constantly battling against reality. Arguing with flat-Earth types can get a bit time-consuming, especially with the kind of Gish Gallops that they frequently post.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on August 08, 2019, 01:14:56 AM
The way Beto and co are trying to energize their campaigns off the back of these shootings is really sick , again the end game for the dems and the news networks is to make sure trump is not re-elected
Also I am in favor of banning any automatic weapons being sold to the public
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 08, 2019, 02:11:31 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 08, 2019, 12:37:41 AM
So now that Whitey-supremacist has come as close as he is ever likely to get to admitting defeat, what do we do now? Boycott him? Everyone put him on ignore? It's hard to have a serious discussion about this kind of thing when someone on the board is constantly battling against reality. Arguing with flat-Earth types can get a bit time-consuming, especially with the kind of Gish Gallops that they frequently post.

Admit defeat-never!  I'm just too busy to bother continuing discussing a topic with a person who is detached from reality (or most likely just WUMs)

Read the thread-Trailer (trash)  said that my statements about Democrats sending agitators to cause trouble at Trump rallies were "made up lies". I put up a link to a New York Times article detailing the firing of 2 people over it and he still won't acknowledge it happened


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2016/10/21/us/politics/video-dnc-trump-rallies.amp.html

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/18/undercover-video-shows-democrats-saying-they-hire-/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/10/18/politics/project-veritas-action-robert-creamer-donald-trump-rallies/index.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/

https://www.apnews.com/670714b83d3d437ab5e22d5a1ae7db4a
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 08, 2019, 05:36:01 AM
Quote from: Gmac on August 08, 2019, 01:14:56 AM
The way Beto and co are trying to energize their campaigns off the back of these shootings is really sick , again the end game for the dems and the news networks is to make sure trump is not re-elected
Also I am in favor of banning any automatic weapons being sold to the public

Would you prefer them to say nothing about it?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Chicago Hurling on August 08, 2019, 06:12:11 AM
Quote from: Gmac on August 08, 2019, 01:14:56 AM
The way Beto and co are trying to energize their campaigns off the back of these shootings is really sick , again the end game for the dems and the news networks is to make sure trump is not re-elected
Also I am in favor of banning any automatic weapons being sold to the public

To be fair change is made by emotion. Were you sickened when Bush used 9/11 as a reason to invade Afghanistan? It's terrorism, it's time people stop splitting hairs between domestic homegrown terrorists vs how it's ok to invade more than 2 nations because we want to fight terrorism.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 08, 2019, 01:07:58 PM
Quote from: Gmac on August 08, 2019, 01:14:56 AM
The way Beto and co are trying to energize their campaigns off the back of these shootings is really sick , again the end game for the dems and the news networks is to make sure trump is not re-elected
Also I am in favor of banning any automatic weapons being sold to the public

Beto is from El Paso FFS. Now is exactly the time for him to stand up and make his mark and show some leadership, especially against the cynical and morally and intellectually bankrupt stance of the GOP and NRA on this issue. And Trump's appalling rhetoric and policies when it comes to those targeted there.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on August 08, 2019, 01:44:59 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 08, 2019, 01:07:58 PM
Quote from: Gmac on August 08, 2019, 01:14:56 AM
The way Beto and co are trying to energize their campaigns off the back of these shootings is really sick , again the end game for the dems and the news networks is to make sure trump is not re-elected
Also I am in favor of banning any automatic weapons being sold to the public

Beto is from El Paso FFS. Now is exactly the time for him to stand up and make his mark and show some leadership, especially against the cynical and morally and intellectually bankrupt stance of the GOP and NRA on this issue. And Trump's appalling rhetoric and policies when it comes to those targeted there.
There's more decency and human empathy in one of Beto O'Rourke's toe clippings than there is in the entire Republican party.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 02:02:32 PM
Can I just make the point (and I have made this one before, specifically) that Whitey's argument is that our perception of America having a gun crisis is erroneous because

1. Mass murder victims are a vanishingly small part of the ocean of gun victims in America
2. White people generally don't have to worry about random shootings, it only really happens in black and coloured areas
3. The murder rate in his town is less than Dublin's and other cities in Ireland...so there.

And I would respond as follows

1. Mass murders are merely the most visible symptoms of a huge psychosis at the heart of the American state - banning of guns would not only greatly decrease mass shootings, it would greatly decrease deaths by suicide and deaths in the commission of felonies.

2. This point is racist at its heart and deeply illogical - when you are talking about the rate of gun violence in a country, you don't get to go "well it is only happening to certain races and in certain areas" - because, surprise, surprise, those black and brown people are human as well, with the same intrinsic rights as those middle class whites holed up in suburban Mass. The blackest joke of our age is a political party calling itself Republican without any true insight into what that term actually means. "But I don't support Trump etc etc.." Shut the fcuk up.

3. Given his penchant for anecdotal evidence, I've been in the rundown areas of American cities, and I've been in the white middle class areas - and, without exception, the guys you have to watch out for are young, white, middle class males - especially the ones claiming to be Irish.

Someday I'll figure out what leads people to disgrace themselves on discussion boards.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 08, 2019, 02:41:26 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 02:02:32 PM
Can I just make the point (and I have made this one before, specifically) that Whitey's argument is that our perception of America having a gun crisis is erroneous because

1. Mass murder victims are a vanishingly small part of the ocean of gun victims in America
2. White people generally don't have to worry about random shootings, it only really happens in black and coloured areas
3. The murder rate in his town is less than Dublin's and other cities in Ireland...so there.

And I would respond as follows

1. Mass murders are merely the most visible symptoms of a huge psychosis at the heart of the American state - banning of guns would not only greatly decrease mass shootings, it would greatly decrease deaths by suicide and deaths in the commission of felonies.

2. This point is racist at its heart and deeply illogical - when you are talking about the rate of gun violence in a country, you don't get to go "well it is only happening to certain races and in certain areas" - because, surprise, surprise, those black and brown people are human as well, with the same intrinsic rights as those middle class whites holed up in suburban Mass. The blackest joke of our age is a political party calling itself Republican without any true insight into what that term actually means. "But I don't support Trump etc etc.." Shut the fcuk up.

3. Given his penchant for anecdotal evidence, I've been in the rundown areas of American cities, and I've been in the white middle class areas - and, without exception, the guys you have to watch out for are young, white, middle class males - especially the ones claiming to be Irish.

Someday I'll figure out what leads people to disgrace themselves on discussion boards.

You're completely missing my point (probably intentionally)

(1) You could never "ban guns" because it's written in the constitution that people have the right to bear arms. Whether you agree or disagree with that interpretation that's a whole other discussion. You could ban every automatic weapon in the country and the overall "gun death rate" per 100,000 would probably decrease by a rounding error because the vast majority of deaths are via handguns.

(2) I have a background in statistics and  I'm merely pointing out that average statistics do not paint an accurate picture of what actually happens in real life. The town I grew up in Ireland is caught up in a traveler feud, and there have been 4/5 shootings and one murder in the past 3 years. If you looked at the statistics for that town or county (because there's other local towns caught up in it) you'd be scared to set foot in the place, but when you know the back story the average statistics become meaningless.

(3) I would generally  agree with you on point number 3.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on August 08, 2019, 02:55:49 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 08, 2019, 02:41:26 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 02:02:32 PM
Can I just make the point (and I have made this one before, specifically) that Whitey's argument is that our perception of America having a gun crisis is erroneous because

1. Mass murder victims are a vanishingly small part of the ocean of gun victims in America
2. White people generally don't have to worry about random shootings, it only really happens in black and coloured areas
3. The murder rate in his town is less than Dublin's and other cities in Ireland...so there.

And I would respond as follows

1. Mass murders are merely the most visible symptoms of a huge psychosis at the heart of the American state - banning of guns would not only greatly decrease mass shootings, it would greatly decrease deaths by suicide and deaths in the commission of felonies.

2. This point is racist at its heart and deeply illogical - when you are talking about the rate of gun violence in a country, you don't get to go "well it is only happening to certain races and in certain areas" - because, surprise, surprise, those black and brown people are human as well, with the same intrinsic rights as those middle class whites holed up in suburban Mass. The blackest joke of our age is a political party calling itself Republican without any true insight into what that term actually means. "But I don't support Trump etc etc.." Shut the fcuk up.

3. Given his penchant for anecdotal evidence, I've been in the rundown areas of American cities, and I've been in the white middle class areas - and, without exception, the guys you have to watch out for are young, white, middle class males - especially the ones claiming to be Irish.

Someday I'll figure out what leads people to disgrace themselves on discussion boards.

You're completely missing my point (probably intentionally)

(1) You could never "ban guns" because it's written in the constitution that people have the right to bear arms. Whether you agree or disagree with that interpretation that's a whole other discussion. You could ban every automatic weapon in the country and the overall "gun death rate" per 100,000 would probably decrease by a rounding error because the vast majority of deaths are via handguns.

(2) I have a background in statistics and  I'm merely pointing out that average statistics do not paint an accurate picture of what actually happens in real life. The town I grew up in Ireland is caught up in a traveler feud, and there have been 4/5 shootings and one murder in the past 3 years. If you looked at the statistics for that town or county (because there's other local towns caught up in it) you'd be scared to set foot in the place, but when you know the back story the average statistics become meaningless.

(3) I would generally  agree with you on point number 3.

f**k you talk some shite whitey.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnnycool on August 08, 2019, 04:27:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 08, 2019, 02:41:26 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 02:02:32 PM
Can I just make the point (and I have made this one before, specifically) that Whitey's argument is that our perception of America having a gun crisis is erroneous because

1. Mass murder victims are a vanishingly small part of the ocean of gun victims in America
2. White people generally don't have to worry about random shootings, it only really happens in black and coloured areas
3. The murder rate in his town is less than Dublin's and other cities in Ireland...so there.

And I would respond as follows

1. Mass murders are merely the most visible symptoms of a huge psychosis at the heart of the American state - banning of guns would not only greatly decrease mass shootings, it would greatly decrease deaths by suicide and deaths in the commission of felonies.

2. This point is racist at its heart and deeply illogical - when you are talking about the rate of gun violence in a country, you don't get to go "well it is only happening to certain races and in certain areas" - because, surprise, surprise, those black and brown people are human as well, with the same intrinsic rights as those middle class whites holed up in suburban Mass. The blackest joke of our age is a political party calling itself Republican without any true insight into what that term actually means. "But I don't support Trump etc etc.." Shut the fcuk up.

3. Given his penchant for anecdotal evidence, I've been in the rundown areas of American cities, and I've been in the white middle class areas - and, without exception, the guys you have to watch out for are young, white, middle class males - especially the ones claiming to be Irish.

Someday I'll figure out what leads people to disgrace themselves on discussion boards.

You're completely missing my point (probably intentionally)

(1) You could never "ban guns" because it's written in the constitution that people have the right to bear arms. Whether you agree or disagree with that interpretation that's a whole other discussion. You could ban every automatic weapon in the country and the overall "gun death rate" per 100,000 would probably decrease by a rounding error because the vast majority of deaths are via handguns.

(2) I have a background in statistics and  I'm merely pointing out that average statistics do not paint an accurate picture of what actually happens in real life. The town I grew up in Ireland is caught up in a traveler feud, and there have been 4/5 shootings and one murder in the past 3 years. If you looked at the statistics for that town or county (because there's other local towns caught up in it) you'd be scared to set foot in the place, but when you know the back story the average statistics become meaningless.

(3) I would generally  agree with you on point number 3.

Is it not an amendment to the constitution?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 04:46:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 08, 2019, 02:41:26 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 02:02:32 PM
Can I just make the point (and I have made this one before, specifically) that Whitey's argument is that our perception of America having a gun crisis is erroneous because

1. Mass murder victims are a vanishingly small part of the ocean of gun victims in America
2. White people generally don't have to worry about random shootings, it only really happens in black and coloured areas
3. The murder rate in his town is less than Dublin's and other cities in Ireland...so there.

And I would respond as follows

1. Mass murders are merely the most visible symptoms of a huge psychosis at the heart of the American state - banning of guns would not only greatly decrease mass shootings, it would greatly decrease deaths by suicide and deaths in the commission of felonies.

2. This point is racist at its heart and deeply illogical - when you are talking about the rate of gun violence in a country, you don't get to go "well it is only happening to certain races and in certain areas" - because, surprise, surprise, those black and brown people are human as well, with the same intrinsic rights as those middle class whites holed up in suburban Mass. The blackest joke of our age is a political party calling itself Republican without any true insight into what that term actually means. "But I don't support Trump etc etc.." Shut the fcuk up.

3. Given his penchant for anecdotal evidence, I've been in the rundown areas of American cities, and I've been in the white middle class areas - and, without exception, the guys you have to watch out for are young, white, middle class males - especially the ones claiming to be Irish.

Someday I'll figure out what leads people to disgrace themselves on discussion boards.

You're completely missing my point (probably intentionally)

(1) You could never "ban guns" because it's written in the constitution that people have the right to bear arms. Whether you agree or disagree with that interpretation that's a whole other discussion. You could ban every automatic weapon in the country and the overall "gun death rate" per 100,000 would probably decrease by a rounding error because the vast majority of deaths are via handguns.

(2) I have a background in statistics and  I'm merely pointing out that average statistics do not paint an accurate picture of what actually happens in your real life. The town I grew up in Ireland is caught up in a traveler feud, and there have been 4/5 shootings and one murder in the past 3 years. If you looked at the statistics for that town or county (because there's other local towns caught up in it) you'd be scared to set foot in the place, but when you know the back story the average statistics become meaningless.

(3) I would generally  agree with you on point number 3.

That is the point Whitey - check back your posts. Just because you claim violence happens outside your little white enclave, it doesn't give you the right to down play it or dismiss it as not part of real life. These victims, whether Hispanics in El Paso, whites in Dayton, or black on any given night in down trodden urban centres, are all Americans, mostly citizens of your Republic, with the same basic rights as any other humans. Your failure to empathise with them is, at its core, racist.

And please don't hide behind your "background" in stats, because it is obviously piss poor. Your example of a traveller feud is not applicable as we are measuring long term trends not one-off spikes, and your insistence on measuring gun violence set against the relative peace in your town, rather than against a countrywide trend of extreme violence when set against other developed countries, would be laughed off the stage by any statistician.

As for the lack of efficacy in banning assault weapons, it took me literally 30 secs to find this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30188421

It is a sad fact that given the level of gun violence in the States, El Paso and Dayton victims could be counted as a "rounding error" - however if the banning of assault weapons only gave back their lives alone, or maybe just the lives of Newtown, it would be worth it, wouldn't it? Even more tragic is that I have to ask you that question.

And, as pointed out, the 2nd Amendment is exactly what it says on the tin - an amendment, which can be repealed by popular consent. If it couldn't be repealed you wouldn't have the NRA and other bloodsuckers spending hundreds of millions convincing suckers like you that keeping it is central to the maintenance of democracy against tyrannies, when, in fact, it is exactly the opposite.

Poor deluded dopes.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 08, 2019, 05:15:07 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 04:46:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 08, 2019, 02:41:26 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 02:02:32 PM
Can I just make the point (and I have made this one before, specifically) that Whitey's argument is that our perception of America having a gun crisis is erroneous because

1. Mass murder victims are a vanishingly small part of the ocean of gun victims in America
2. White people generally don't have to worry about random shootings, it only really happens in black and coloured areas
3. The murder rate in his town is less than Dublin's and other cities in Ireland...so there.

And I would respond as follows

1. Mass murders are merely the most visible symptoms of a huge psychosis at the heart of the American state - banning of guns would not only greatly decrease mass shootings, it would greatly decrease deaths by suicide and deaths in the commission of felonies.

2. This point is racist at its heart and deeply illogical - when you are talking about the rate of gun violence in a country, you don't get to go "well it is only happening to certain races and in certain areas" - because, surprise, surprise, those black and brown people are human as well, with the same intrinsic rights as those middle class whites holed up in suburban Mass. The blackest joke of our age is a political party calling itself Republican without any true insight into what that term actually means. "But I don't support Trump etc etc.." Shut the fcuk up.

3. Given his penchant for anecdotal evidence, I've been in the rundown areas of American cities, and I've been in the white middle class areas - and, without exception, the guys you have to watch out for are young, white, middle class males - especially the ones claiming to be Irish.

Someday I'll figure out what leads people to disgrace themselves on discussion boards.

You're completely missing my point (probably intentionally)

(1) You could never "ban guns" because it's written in the constitution that people have the right to bear arms. Whether you agree or disagree with that interpretation that's a whole other discussion. You could ban every automatic weapon in the country and the overall "gun death rate" per 100,000 would probably decrease by a rounding error because the vast majority of deaths are via handguns.

(2) I have a background in statistics and  I'm merely pointing out that average statistics do not paint an accurate picture of what actually happens in your real life. The town I grew up in Ireland is caught up in a traveler feud, and there have been 4/5 shootings and one murder in the past 3 years. If you looked at the statistics for that town or county (because there's other local towns caught up in it) you'd be scared to set foot in the place, but when you know the back story the average statistics become meaningless.

(3) I would generally  agree with you on point number 3.

That is the point Whitey - check back your posts. Just because you claim violence happens outside your little white enclave, it doesn't give you the right to down play it or dismiss it as not part of real life. These victims, whether Hispanics in El Paso, whites in Dayton, or black on any given night in down trodden urban centres, are all Americans, mostly citizens of your Republic, with the same basic rights as any other humans. Your failure to empathise with them is, at its core, racist.

And please don't hide behind your "background" in stats, because it is obviously piss poor. Your example of a traveller feud is not applicable as we are measuring long term trends not one-off spikes, and your insistence on measuring gun violence set against the relative peace in your town, rather than against a countrywide trend of extreme violence when set against other developed countries, would be laughed off the stage by any statistician.

As for the lack of efficacy in banning assault weapons, it took me literally 30 secs to find this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30188421

It is a sad fact that given the level of gun violence in the States, El Paso and Dayton victims could be counted as a "rounding error" - however if the banning of assault weapons only gave back their lives alone, or maybe just the lives of Newtown, it would be worth it, wouldn't it? Even more tragic is that I have to ask you that question.

And, as pointed out, the 2nd Amendment is exactly what it says on the tin - an amendment, which can be repealed by popular consent. If it couldn't be repealed you wouldn't have the NRA and other bloodsuckers spending hundreds of millions convincing suckers like you that keeping it is central to the maintenance of democracy against tyrannies, when, in fact, it is exactly the opposite.

Poor deluded dopes.

Who said I dont emphatize with them?

If you glommed the crime statistics of Blanchardstown/Tallaght together with those of Foxrock and came up with an average, Im sure it would make for very scary reading for the residents of Foxrock.


Where did I say I you couldnt ban assault weapons...they were banned before and Im in favor of them being banned again. I said, if you bother to read what I wrote, is that assault weapons count for a very small percentage of all firearm related deaths.

If you think the second amendment will be repealed, good for you. Im sure it makes you feel better
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 05:29:05 PM
I say you don't empathize with them, after reading your posts.

Where did I say I you couldnt ban assault weapons - I didn't say you said that - I pointed out that you said banning them wouldn't bring down the statistics. You could ban every automatic weapon in the country and the overall "gun death rate" per 100,000 would probably decrease by a rounding error because the vast majority of deaths are via handguns. You should try reading yourself. Especially the report I linked to where it makes very clear that it makes a real, measurable difference to get rid of assault weapons, not a rounding error.


If you glommed the crime statistics of Blanchardstown/Tallaght together with those of Foxrock and came up with an average, Im sure it would make for very scary reading for the residents of Foxrock.
That's not how national statistics work. Which is what we are talking about. But you know how spoofing works, very well. Because you live in Foxrock and you don't give a fcuk about anyone else.


If you think the second amendment will be repealed, good for you. Im sure it makes you feel better

I didn't say that it would, I merely pointed out that it could be, hence the spending of the NRA and gun lobby. But why stop spoofing now? What makes me feel better is knowing that I'm not like you.






Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 08, 2019, 05:48:00 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 05:29:05 PM
I say you don't empathize with them, after reading your posts.

Where did I say I you couldnt ban assault weapons - I didn't say you said that - I pointed out that you said banning them wouldn't bring down the statistics. You could ban every automatic weapon in the country and the overall "gun death rate" per 100,000 would probably decrease by a rounding error because the vast majority of deaths are via handguns. You should try reading yourself. Especially the report I linked to where it makes very clear that it makes a real, measurable difference to get rid of assault weapons, not a rounding error.


If you glommed the crime statistics of Blanchardstown/Tallaght together with those of Foxrock and came up with an average, Im sure it would make for very scary reading for the residents of Foxrock.
That's not how national statistics work. Which is what we are talking about. But you know how spoofing works, very well. Because you live in Foxrock and you don't give a fcuk about anyone else.


If you think the second amendment will be repealed, good for you. Im sure it makes you feel better

I didn't say that it would, I merely pointed out that it could be, hence the spending of the NRA and gun lobby. But why stop spoofing now? What makes me feel better is knowing that I'm not like you.

That's the best news I have heard all day

The tone in here actually goes a long way towards explaining how Trump got elected (and very well may get re-elected). And I didn't even vote for him-I voted for Jill stein-lol

Disagree with me and you're a racist  and a white supremacist.

Got news for you though, over here there's just as many of me as there are of you. People who work hard, obey the law, pay our taxes, contribute to our communities and raise our families. Yes, I have  sympathy and empathy for those less well off than myself, but I can't solve the worlds problems and  like the ongoing traveler feud, some people are just beyond redemptiin
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 05:59:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 08, 2019, 05:48:00 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 05:29:05 PM
I say you don't empathize with them, after reading your posts.

Where did I say I you couldnt ban assault weapons - I didn't say you said that - I pointed out that you said banning them wouldn't bring down the statistics. You could ban every automatic weapon in the country and the overall "gun death rate" per 100,000 would probably decrease by a rounding error because the vast majority of deaths are via handguns. You should try reading yourself. Especially the report I linked to where it makes very clear that it makes a real, measurable difference to get rid of assault weapons, not a rounding error.


If you glommed the crime statistics of Blanchardstown/Tallaght together with those of Foxrock and came up with an average, Im sure it would make for very scary reading for the residents of Foxrock.
That's not how national statistics work. Which is what we are talking about. But you know how spoofing works, very well. Because you live in Foxrock and you don't give a fcuk about anyone else.


If you think the second amendment will be repealed, good for you. Im sure it makes you feel better

I didn't say that it would, I merely pointed out that it could be, hence the spending of the NRA and gun lobby. But why stop spoofing now? What makes me feel better is knowing that I'm not like you.

That's the best news I have heard all day

The tone in here actually goes a long way towards explaining how Trump got elected (and very well may get re-elected). And I didn't even vote for him-I voted for Jill stein-lol

Disagree with me and you're a racist  and a white supremacist.

Got news for you though, over here there's just as many of me as there are of you. People who work hard, obey the law, pay our taxes, contribute to our communities and raise our families. Yes, I have  sympathy and empathy for those less well off than myself, but I can't solve the worlds problems and like the ongoing traveler feud, some people are just beyond redemptiin

Says it all. Pathetic.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 08, 2019, 07:01:09 PM
The US constitution has been amended over 25 times, it can be amended again. It took a while to figure out that the prohibition of alcohol was a wrong turn and they were able to change their minds about that. The gun nuts are determined to push guns into the hands of terrorists and the mentally ill. If they keep it up for much longer then repealing 2A will become a lot easier. It would help if the Democrats would stop parroting the "I respect the second amendment" bullsh1t. It's ink on a page, poorly worded at that, and has not earned any respect.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 08, 2019, 08:04:52 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 05:59:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 08, 2019, 05:48:00 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 05:29:05 PM
I say you don't empathize with them, after reading your posts.

Where did I say I you couldnt ban assault weapons - I didn't say you said that - I pointed out that you said banning them wouldn't bring down the statistics. You could ban every automatic weapon in the country and the overall "gun death rate" per 100,000 would probably decrease by a rounding error because the vast majority of deaths are via handguns. You should try reading yourself. Especially the report I linked to where it makes very clear that it makes a real, measurable difference to get rid of assault weapons, not a rounding error.


If you glommed the crime statistics of Blanchardstown/Tallaght together with those of Foxrock and came up with an average, Im sure it would make for very scary reading for the residents of Foxrock.
That's not how national statistics work. Which is what we are talking about. But you know how spoofing works, very well. Because you live in Foxrock and you don't give a fcuk about anyone else.


If you think the second amendment will be repealed, good for you. Im sure it makes you feel better

I didn't say that it would, I merely pointed out that it could be, hence the spending of the NRA and gun lobby. But why stop spoofing now? What makes me feel better is knowing that I'm not like you.

That's the best news I have heard all day

The tone in here actually goes a long way towards explaining how Trump got elected (and very well may get re-elected). And I didn't even vote for him-I voted for Jill stein-lol

Disagree with me and you're a racist  and a white supremacist.

Got news for you though, over here there's just as many of me as there are of you. People who work hard, obey the law, pay our taxes, contribute to our communities and raise our families. Yes, I have  sympathy and empathy for those less well off than myself, but I can't solve the worlds problems and like the ongoing traveler feud, some people are just beyond redemptiin

Says it all. Pathetic.

You quote national gun statistics, but we don't just have National gun laws, we also have State Gun Laws. This leads to enormous disparities between states in terms of who has access to guns. The states with the strictest laws typically have the lowest number of deaths (although there are some exceptions). National statistics are meaningless in this discussion because there are essentially 50 different sets of laws
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 08, 2019, 08:07:31 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 08, 2019, 07:01:09 PM
The US constitution has been amended over 25 times, it can be amended again. It took a while to figure out that the prohibition of alcohol was a wrong turn and they were able to change their minds about that. The gun nuts are determined to push guns into the hands of terrorists and the mentally ill. If they keep it up for much longer then repealing 2A will become a lot easier. It would help if the Democrats would stop parroting the "I respect the second amendment" bullsh1t. It's ink on a page, poorly worded at that, and has not earned any respect.

Hypothetically that is correct, but who will sign up to confiscate the 300,000,000 guns that are in the hands of the general population. Will a change in the constitution take one single solitary gun out of the hands of a criminal?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on August 08, 2019, 08:23:01 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 08, 2019, 08:07:31 PM
Will a change in the constitution take one single solitary gun out of the hands of a criminal?

Really really interesting comment that gets bandied about a lot. I assume by criminal, you mean a bad guy - with a gun. Chicago, LA. Gangs, Convenience store robbers etc...?

The folks who are committing these mass shootings usually aren't a criminal in the sense that gun advocates use the term - right up until the moment they plan, snap, and start shooting up kids.

So, would a change in the constitution prevent any of these atrocities? Of course it would. Would it change common criminality - perhaps. Perhaps not.

Either way, one is a common place issue in almost all societies and for want of a better word - a resignation of society that there will be a criminal element that takes up our resources and keeps folks awake at night and scared when they walk down a dark alley... Mass slaughter of folks in a day time mall/school/cinema is not.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: tonto1888 on August 09, 2019, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 08, 2019, 05:48:00 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 05:29:05 PM
I say you don't empathize with them, after reading your posts.

Where did I say I you couldnt ban assault weapons - I didn't say you said that - I pointed out that you said banning them wouldn't bring down the statistics. You could ban every automatic weapon in the country and the overall "gun death rate" per 100,000 would probably decrease by a rounding error because the vast majority of deaths are via handguns. You should try reading yourself. Especially the report I linked to where it makes very clear that it makes a real, measurable difference to get rid of assault weapons, not a rounding error.


If you glommed the crime statistics of Blanchardstown/Tallaght together with those of Foxrock and came up with an average, Im sure it would make for very scary reading for the residents of Foxrock.
That's not how national statistics work. Which is what we are talking about. But you know how spoofing works, very well. Because you live in Foxrock and you don't give a fcuk about anyone else.


If you think the second amendment will be repealed, good for you. Im sure it makes you feel better

I didn't say that it would, I merely pointed out that it could be, hence the spending of the NRA and gun lobby. But why stop spoofing now? What makes me feel better is knowing that I'm not like you.

That's the best news I have heard all day

The tone in here actually goes a long way towards explaining how Trump got elected (and very well may get re-elected). And I didn't even vote for him-I voted for Jill stein-lol

Disagree with me and you're a racist  and a white supremacist.

Got news for you though, over here there's just as many of me as there are of you. People who work hard, obey the law, pay our taxes, contribute to our communities and raise our families. Yes, I have  sympathy and empathy for those less well off than myself, but I can't solve the worlds problems and  like the ongoing traveler feud, some people are just beyond redemptiin

Empathy? You're the guy who compared the victims of automatic rifles to a rounding error.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on August 09, 2019, 11:05:31 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 08, 2019, 08:07:31 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 08, 2019, 07:01:09 PM
The US constitution has been amended over 25 times, it can be amended again. It took a while to figure out that the prohibition of alcohol was a wrong turn and they were able to change their minds about that. The gun nuts are determined to push guns into the hands of terrorists and the mentally ill. If they keep it up for much longer then repealing 2A will become a lot easier. It would help if the Democrats would stop parroting the "I respect the second amendment" bullsh1t. It's ink on a page, poorly worded at that, and has not earned any respect.

Hypothetically that is correct, but who will sign up to confiscate the 300,000,000 guns that are in the hands of the general population. Will a change in the constitution take one single solitary gun out of the hands of a criminal?

So if doesn't work in the USA why does it work in every other western nation? Explain that to me.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 09, 2019, 11:49:36 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on August 09, 2019, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 08, 2019, 05:48:00 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 05:29:05 PM
I say you don't empathize with them, after reading your posts.

Where did I say I you couldnt ban assault weapons - I didn't say you said that - I pointed out that you said banning them wouldn't bring down the statistics. You could ban every automatic weapon in the country and the overall "gun death rate" per 100,000 would probably decrease by a rounding error because the vast majority of deaths are via handguns. You should try reading yourself. Especially the report I linked to where it makes very clear that it makes a real, measurable difference to get rid of assault weapons, not a rounding error.


If you glommed the crime statistics of Blanchardstown/Tallaght together with those of Foxrock and came up with an average, Im sure it would make for very scary reading for the residents of Foxrock.
That's not how national statistics work. Which is what we are talking about. But you know how spoofing works, very well. Because you live in Foxrock and you don't give a fcuk about anyone else.


If you think the second amendment will be repealed, good for you. Im sure it makes you feel better

I didn't say that it would, I merely pointed out that it could be, hence the spending of the NRA and gun lobby. But why stop spoofing now? What makes me feel better is knowing that I'm not like you.

That's the best news I have heard all day

The tone in here actually goes a long way towards explaining how Trump got elected (and very well may get re-elected). And I didn't even vote for him-I voted for Jill stein-lol

Disagree with me and you're a racist  and a white supremacist.

Got news for you though, over here there's just as many of me as there are of you. People who work hard, obey the law, pay our taxes, contribute to our communities and raise our families. Yes, I have  sympathy and empathy for those less well off than myself, but I can't solve the worlds problems and  like the ongoing traveler feud, some people are just beyond redemptiin

Empathy? You're the guy who compared the victims of automatic rifles to a rounding error.

I did no such thing, but believe what you want.

Facts are an awkward thing when you are ill informed

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5763109de4b015db1bc8c123/amp

"But as momentum builds for a new assault weapons ban, data shows just how small of an effect such legislation would have on the overall levels of gun violence in the U.S."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on August 09, 2019, 12:31:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 11:49:36 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on August 09, 2019, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 08, 2019, 05:48:00 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 05:29:05 PM
I say you don't empathize with them, after reading your posts.

Where did I say I you couldnt ban assault weapons - I didn't say you said that - I pointed out that you said banning them wouldn't bring down the statistics. You could ban every automatic weapon in the country and the overall "gun death rate" per 100,000 would probably decrease by a rounding error because the vast majority of deaths are via handguns. You should try reading yourself. Especially the report I linked to where it makes very clear that it makes a real, measurable difference to get rid of assault weapons, not a rounding error.


If you glommed the crime statistics of Blanchardstown/Tallaght together with those of Foxrock and came up with an average, Im sure it would make for very scary reading for the residents of Foxrock.
That's not how national statistics work. Which is what we are talking about. But you know how spoofing works, very well. Because you live in Foxrock and you don't give a fcuk about anyone else.


If you think the second amendment will be repealed, good for you. Im sure it makes you feel better

I didn't say that it would, I merely pointed out that it could be, hence the spending of the NRA and gun lobby. But why stop spoofing now? What makes me feel better is knowing that I'm not like you.

That's the best news I have heard all day

The tone in here actually goes a long way towards explaining how Trump got elected (and very well may get re-elected). And I didn't even vote for him-I voted for Jill stein-lol

Disagree with me and you're a racist  and a white supremacist.

Got news for you though, over here there's just as many of me as there are of you. People who work hard, obey the law, pay our taxes, contribute to our communities and raise our families. Yes, I have  sympathy and empathy for those less well off than myself, but I can't solve the worlds problems and  like the ongoing traveler feud, some people are just beyond redemptiin

Empathy? You're the guy who compared the victims of automatic rifles to a rounding error.

I did no such thing, but believe what you want.

Facts are an awkward thing when you are ill informed

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5763109de4b015db1bc8c123/amp

"But as momentum builds for a new assault weapons ban, data shows just how small of an effect such legislation would have on the overall levels of gun violence in the U.S."

"Those deaths account for about 2 percent of the 6,153 gun deaths and less than 1 percent of the 12,560 gun injuries the Gun Violence Archive has counted so far this year. "
So 61 deaths in 2016. 61 people who would be alive if these automatic guns were outlawed. Will it solve the entire problem? No. Is it a start? Yes.

Facts are awkward when you're ill informed.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 09, 2019, 12:42:29 PM
Untrue-how do you know the person who shot them wouldn't have just used a handgun if he didn't have access to an assault weapon?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on August 09, 2019, 01:05:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 12:42:29 PM
Untrue-how do you know the person who shot them wouldn't have just used a handgun if he didn't have access to an assault weapon?

Sure here with that reasoning everyone should be allowed to posses tanks, mortar bombs, nuclear bombs. Why regulate anything?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 09, 2019, 01:58:00 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 09, 2019, 01:05:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 12:42:29 PM
Untrue-how do you know the person who shot them wouldn't have just used a handgun if he didn't have access to an assault weapon?

Sure here with that reasoning everyone should be allowed to posses tanks, mortar bombs, nuclear bombs. Why regulate anything?

A madman with hate in his heart will find a way. Just look at what happened in France when the truck mowed down hundreds of people
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on August 09, 2019, 02:11:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 01:58:00 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 09, 2019, 01:05:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 12:42:29 PM
Untrue-how do you know the person who shot them wouldn't have just used a handgun if he didn't have access to an assault weapon?

Sure here with that reasoning everyone should be allowed to posses tanks, mortar bombs, nuclear bombs. Why regulate anything?

A madman with hate in his heart will find a way. Just look at what happened in France when the truck mowed down hundreds of people

Yes and we should facilitate it and make it as easy as possible for people to commit these atrocities. Can everyone write to there local authority and ask them to remove the bollards around busy pedestrian areas as it pointless trying to protect people from madmen. They are a waste of tax payers money.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: tonto1888 on August 09, 2019, 02:19:25 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 11:49:36 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on August 09, 2019, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 08, 2019, 05:48:00 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2019, 05:29:05 PM
I say you don't empathize with them, after reading your posts.

Where did I say I you couldnt ban assault weapons - I didn't say you said that - I pointed out that you said banning them wouldn't bring down the statistics. You could ban every automatic weapon in the country and the overall "gun death rate" per 100,000 would probably decrease by a rounding error because the vast majority of deaths are via handguns. You should try reading yourself. Especially the report I linked to where it makes very clear that it makes a real, measurable difference to get rid of assault weapons, not a rounding error.


If you glommed the crime statistics of Blanchardstown/Tallaght together with those of Foxrock and came up with an average, Im sure it would make for very scary reading for the residents of Foxrock.
That's not how national statistics work. Which is what we are talking about. But you know how spoofing works, very well. Because you live in Foxrock and you don't give a fcuk about anyone else.


If you think the second amendment will be repealed, good for you. Im sure it makes you feel better

I didn't say that it would, I merely pointed out that it could be, hence the spending of the NRA and gun lobby. But why stop spoofing now? What makes me feel better is knowing that I'm not like you.

That's the best news I have heard all day

The tone in here actually goes a long way towards explaining how Trump got elected (and very well may get re-elected). And I didn't even vote for him-I voted for Jill stein-lol

Disagree with me and you're a racist  and a white supremacist.

Got news for you though, over here there's just as many of me as there are of you. People who work hard, obey the law, pay our taxes, contribute to our communities and raise our families. Yes, I have  sympathy and empathy for those less well off than myself, but I can't solve the worlds problems and  like the ongoing traveler feud, some people are just beyond redemptiin

Empathy? You're the guy who compared the victims of automatic rifles to a rounding error.

I did no such thing, but believe what you want.

Facts are an awkward thing when you are ill informed

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5763109de4b015db1bc8c123/amp

"But as momentum builds for a new assault weapons ban, data shows just how small of an effect such legislation would have on the overall levels of gun violence in the U.S."

Ill informed? I am going by your exact words
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 09, 2019, 02:44:35 PM
No you're not. I never said it-you're playing a game of connect the dots with imaginary made up dots

I
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 09, 2019, 02:47:28 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 09, 2019, 02:11:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 01:58:00 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 09, 2019, 01:05:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 12:42:29 PM
Untrue-how do you know the person who shot them wouldn't have just used a handgun if he didn't have access to an assault weapon?

Sure here with that reasoning everyone should be allowed to posses tanks, mortar bombs, nuclear bombs. Why regulate anything?

A madman with hate in his heart will find a way. Just look at what happened in France when the truck mowed down hundreds of people

Yes and we should facilitate it and make it as easy as possible for people to commit these atrocities. Can everyone write to there local authority and ask them to remove the bollards around busy pedestrian areas as it pointless trying to protect people from madmen. They are a waste of tax payers money.

Good deflection, but essentially what you are proposing is that we ban trucks based on what happened
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on August 09, 2019, 03:31:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 02:47:28 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 09, 2019, 02:11:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 01:58:00 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 09, 2019, 01:05:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 12:42:29 PM
Untrue-how do you know the person who shot them wouldn't have just used a handgun if he didn't have access to an assault weapon?

Sure here with that reasoning everyone should be allowed to posses tanks, mortar bombs, nuclear bombs. Why regulate anything?

A madman with hate in his heart will find a way. Just look at what happened in France when the truck mowed down hundreds of people

Yes and we should facilitate it and make it as easy as possible for people to commit these atrocities. Can everyone write to there local authority and ask them to remove the bollards around busy pedestrian areas as it pointless trying to protect people from madmen. They are a waste of tax payers money.

Good deflection, but essentially what you are proposing is that we ban trucks based on what happened

No but you can only drive a truck if you have passed a test and have correct insurances. You're advocating anyone should be allowed to drive at any age because we can't stop a few breaking the law. Crazy.
You don't want any laws or anything regulated. It's the stance of a person who's mentally unwell or has a serious lack of intelligence.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 09, 2019, 04:09:30 PM


I'm all for gun regulation and extremely tight regulation at that. I'm in favor of a gun buyback program. I'm in favor of people needing to take out extra homeowners insurance. I'm in favor of taking away guns from domestic abusers, substance abusers and anyone with a criminal record. I'm in favor of upping the age at which people can buy guns. I'm in favor of banning high capacity magazines. I'm in favor abolishing open carry laws. I'm in favor of restricting the storage and use of assault weapons to secure shooting ranges. I'm in favor of background checks that include a trip to the proctologist

What I'm not of favor of is an overblown knee jerk reaction to ban assault weapons that  provides some great talking points to CNN but will prevent less than 1% of gun deaths
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on August 09, 2019, 04:11:03 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 04:09:30 PM


I'm all for gun regulation and extremely tight regulation at that. I'm in favor of a gun buyback program. I'm in favor of people needing to take out extra homeowners insurance. I'm in favor of taking away guns from domestic abusers, substance abusers and anyone with a criminal record. I'm in favor of upping the age at which people can buy guns. I'm in favor of banning high capacity magazines. I'm in favor abolishing open carry laws. I'm in favor of restricting the storage and use of assault weapons to secure shooting ranges. I'm in favor of background checks that include a trip to the proctologist

What I'm not of favor of is an overblown knee jerk reaction to ban assault weapons that  provides some great talking points to CNN but will prevent less than 1% of gun deaths

Why?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on August 09, 2019, 04:23:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 02:47:28 PM

Good deflection, but essentially what you are proposing is that we ban trucks based on what happened
Good jaysus

Robo-fascist is in the house
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on August 09, 2019, 04:24:45 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 04:09:30 PM


I'm all for gun regulation and extremely tight regulation at that. I'm in favor of a gun buyback program. I'm in favor of people needing to take out extra homeowners insurance. I'm in favor of taking away guns from domestic abusers, substance abusers and anyone with a criminal record. I'm in favor of upping the age at which people can buy guns. I'm in favor of banning high capacity magazines. I'm in favor abolishing open carry laws. I'm in favor of restricting the storage and use of assault weapons to secure shooting ranges. I'm in favor of background checks that include a trip to the proctologist

What I'm not of favor of is an overblown knee jerk reaction to ban assault weapons that  provides some great talking points to CNN but will prevent less than 1% of gun deaths

With the amount of gun deaths in America surely that less than 1% is still a significant number . . . you'd rather more people died than CNN get something to talk about??!!

Weird!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 09, 2019, 04:44:17 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 08, 2019, 08:07:31 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 08, 2019, 07:01:09 PM
The US constitution has been amended over 25 times, it can be amended again. It took a while to figure out that the prohibition of alcohol was a wrong turn and they were able to change their minds about that. The gun nuts are determined to push guns into the hands of terrorists and the mentally ill. If they keep it up for much longer then repealing 2A will become a lot easier. It would help if the Democrats would stop parroting the "I respect the second amendment" bullsh1t. It's ink on a page, poorly worded at that, and has not earned any respect.

Hypothetically that is correct, but who will sign up to confiscate the 300,000,000 guns that are in the hands of the general population.
That's not how these things work. When other countries banned weapons there were various methods used to taking them out of circulation, such as buy-backs and amnesties. Going around knocking on doors and asking for every weapon is not the way they did it.

QuoteWill a change in the constitution take one single solitary gun out of the hands of a criminal?

Seems to work in other countries.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 09, 2019, 04:58:37 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 09, 2019, 04:24:45 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 04:09:30 PM


I'm all for gun regulation and extremely tight regulation at that. I'm in favor of a gun buyback program. I'm in favor of people needing to take out extra homeowners insurance. I'm in favor of taking away guns from domestic abusers, substance abusers and anyone with a criminal record. I'm in favor of upping the age at which people can buy guns. I'm in favor of banning high capacity magazines. I'm in favor abolishing open carry laws. I'm in favor of restricting the storage and use of assault weapons to secure shooting ranges. I'm in favor of background checks that include a trip to the proctologist

What I'm not of favor of is an overblown knee jerk reaction to ban assault weapons that  provides some great talking points to CNN but will prevent less than 1% of gun deaths

With the amount of gun deaths in America surely that less than 1% is still a significant number . . . you'd rather more people died than CNN get something to talk about??!!

Weird!

Actually it's not weird at all

The gun debate has a lot of similarities to the debate over abortion

People who are Pro Choice/Abortion don't want any restrictions on when you can have an abortion, because that could the beginning of a "slippery slope" of tighter and tighter regulation.

The Pro gun lobby use exactly the same argument...if you ban Automatic weapons (even though they were banned once before) what's the next type of gun that will be banned?

The slippery slope argument is probably the best argument the gun lobby have that keeps possible fence sitters on their side. Why would you expend your political capital proposing a solution that would address less than 1% of the problem and at the same time give the NRA a bogeymen-East Coast Liberal Elites-to rally against
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on August 09, 2019, 05:37:15 PM
Only guns I'm worried about this morning are these 💪💪 nice and quiet at equinox hopefully the snowflakes stay away permanently
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on August 10, 2019, 10:03:14 AM
Guess who said it: Tucker Carlson or a far-right shooter

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/10/tucker-carlson-fox-news-united-states-race
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on August 10, 2019, 07:06:23 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 10, 2019, 10:03:14 AM
Guess who said it: Tucker Carlson or a far-right shooter

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/10/tucker-carlson-fox-news-united-states-race
the author of this piece would make aoc look like a moderate
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 11, 2019, 10:15:13 AM
Quote from: Gmac on August 10, 2019, 07:06:23 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 10, 2019, 10:03:14 AM
Guess who said it: Tucker Carlson or a far-right shooter

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/10/tucker-carlson-fox-news-united-states-race
the author of this piece would make aoc look like a moderate

What do you disagree with?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 11, 2019, 11:36:07 AM
Quote from: J70 on August 11, 2019, 10:15:13 AM
Quote from: Gmac on August 10, 2019, 07:06:23 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 10, 2019, 10:03:14 AM
Guess who said it: Tucker Carlson or a far-right shooter

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/10/tucker-carlson-fox-news-united-states-race
the author of this piece would make aoc look like a moderate

What do you disagree with?

So do the Democrats get to decide who and what is racist?

In the past month:

I have heard that Nancy Pelosi is racist.......for attempting to silence women of color.

I have heard that Joe Biden is racist.......for opposing busing and working with segregationists

I have heard that Little House on the Prairie was racist

The Apollo Moon Landing was racist
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 11, 2019, 12:23:06 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 11, 2019, 11:36:07 AM
Quote from: J70 on August 11, 2019, 10:15:13 AM
Quote from: Gmac on August 10, 2019, 07:06:23 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 10, 2019, 10:03:14 AM
Guess who said it: Tucker Carlson or a far-right shooter

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/10/tucker-carlson-fox-news-united-states-race
the author of this piece would make aoc look like a moderate

What do you disagree with?

So do the Democrats get to decide who and what is racist?

In the past month:

I have heard that Nancy Pelosi is racist.......for attempting to silence women of color.

I have heard that Joe Biden is racist.......for opposing busing and working with segregationists

I have heard that Little House on the Prairie was racist

The Apollo Moon Landing was racist

What does any of that have to do with my question?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 11, 2019, 02:17:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 11, 2019, 12:23:06 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 11, 2019, 11:36:07 AM
Quote from: J70 on August 11, 2019, 10:15:13 AM
Quote from: Gmac on August 10, 2019, 07:06:23 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 10, 2019, 10:03:14 AM
Guess who said it: Tucker Carlson or a far-right shooter

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/10/tucker-carlson-fox-news-united-states-race
the author of this piece would make aoc look like a moderate

What do you disagree with?

So do the Democrats get to decide who and what is racist?

In the past month:

I have heard that Nancy Pelosi is racist.......for attempting to silence women of color.

I have heard that Joe Biden is racist.......for opposing busing and working with segregationists

I have heard that Little House on the Prairie was racist

The Apollo Moon Landing was racist

What does any of that have to do with my question?

Who gets to define what is racist and who gets to define who is a white supremacist?  The Guardian, the Democratic Party, AOC?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 11, 2019, 02:34:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 11, 2019, 02:17:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 11, 2019, 12:23:06 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 11, 2019, 11:36:07 AM
Quote from: J70 on August 11, 2019, 10:15:13 AM
Quote from: Gmac on August 10, 2019, 07:06:23 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 10, 2019, 10:03:14 AM
Guess who said it: Tucker Carlson or a far-right shooter

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/10/tucker-carlson-fox-news-united-states-race
the author of this piece would make aoc look like a moderate

What do you disagree with?

So do the Democrats get to decide who and what is racist?

In the past month:

I have heard that Nancy Pelosi is racist.......for attempting to silence women of color.

I have heard that Joe Biden is racist.......for opposing busing and working with segregationists

I have heard that Little House on the Prairie was racist

The Apollo Moon Landing was racist

What does any of that have to do with my question?

Who gets to define what is racist and who gets to define who is a white supremacist?  The Guardian, the Democratic Party, AOC?

It's an opinion piece, written to refute Carlson's opinion of the same.

If your opinion is different to the writer in question and you want to defend Carlson, have at it, just like Gmac is entitled to do.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 11, 2019, 03:20:40 PM
That article implies that if you are not for open borders you are both a racist and a white nationalist.

Why is his definition of racism incorrect, while theirs is correct?

"Carlson may not even notice what he is doing, or realize that he has a "white nationalist" viewpoint. That's, in part, because he accepts the definition of racism as "racial hatred". Instead, we should define it as valuing people of different races differently, and accepting a racial hierarchy of wealth and power as natural. If you care about what happens to white auto workers, but don't care about what happens to Guatemalans or Somalis, that's racism."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 12, 2019, 01:28:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 11, 2019, 03:20:40 PM
That article implies that if you are not for open borders you are both a racist and a white nationalist.

Why is his definition of racism incorrect, while theirs is correct?

"Carlson may not even notice what he is doing, or realize that he has a "white nationalist" viewpoint. That's, in part, because he accepts the definition of racism as "racial hatred". Instead, we should define it as valuing people of different races differently, and accepting a racial hierarchy of wealth and power as natural. If you care about what happens to white auto workers, but don't care about what happens to Guatemalans or Somalis, that's racism."

Why don't you tell us why the opposite should be the truth?

And I don't see any mention of open borders or the specifics of how immigrants get here, merely the author railing against Carlson's scare mongering about the increasing proportion of minorities in the US.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on May 06, 2020, 12:31:50 AM
Google Ahmaud Arbery. It's all there on tape.

It's what called a lynching.

And the evil white supremacist cancer that led to that lynching has been mainstreamed right into the White House, and enables and empowers white supremacist murderers.

Nobody has been charged.

America remains in the 19th century in so many ways.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Newbridge Exile on May 06, 2020, 10:36:53 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 06, 2020, 12:31:50 AM
Google Ahmaud Arbery. It's all there on tape.

It's what called a lynching.

And the evil white supremacist cancer that led to that lynching has been mainstreamed right into the White House, and enables and empowers white supremacist murderers.

Nobody has been charged.

America remains in the 19th century in so many ways.
I came across this last night on twitter, couldn't believe what i saw
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 06, 2020, 11:17:10 AM
Holy f**k. They literally hunted him down, a poor lad doing nothing but jogging, but having the misfortune to run into some racist Neanderthals.

And it happened in February. Yet another case of an unarmed black man brutally killed, but nothing happens until the phone video hits the internet. The DA should f**king resign.

Wait until you see - some right wing apologists in the media will point to the fact that there was a struggle. Well no shit moron - the poor guy tried to run around the truck, but got met by a sc**bag with a shotgun. You'd get in a struggle for the gun too.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on May 06, 2020, 11:31:08 AM
America's gun culture is inherited from the violence of its settler colonial history. So is the paranoia that goes with it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 06, 2020, 12:10:10 PM
Shocking

Judge, Jury and executioner. Those 2 should face life in jail or the death penalty
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on May 06, 2020, 12:38:21 PM
QuoteThe report said Travis McMichael, the son of a former district attorney investigator, fired the fatal shot. He was not immediately charged because he claimed that he was conducting a citizen's arrest, the report said. There have been a string of burglaries in the area and Arbery supposedly fit the description of the suspect.

Holy shit this thing is crazy!!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Newbridge Exile on May 06, 2020, 01:04:59 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 06, 2020, 12:38:21 PM
QuoteThe report said Travis McMichael, the son of a former district attorney investigator, fired the fatal shot. He was not immediately charged because he claimed that he was conducting a citizen's arrest, the report said. There have been a string of burglaries in the area and Arbery supposedly fit the description of the suspect.

Holy shit this thing is crazy!!!
You dont have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what the outcome would have been if it had have been 2 black man gunning down a white jogger
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Never beat the deeler on May 08, 2020, 05:42:12 AM
Quote from: screenexile on May 06, 2020, 12:38:21 PM
QuoteThe report said Travis McMichael, the son of a former district attorney investigator, fired the fatal shot. He was not immediately charged because he claimed that he was conducting a citizen's arrest, the report said. There have been a string of burglaries in the area and Arbery supposedly fit the description of the suspect.

Holy shit this thing is crazy!!!

What are the odds his skin colour was the only thing he had in common with the description
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: sid waddell on March 17, 2021, 10:53:45 AM
Another young, male, white supremacist walking stereotype has gone on the rampage in Georgia

Expect Fox News to wheel out all the classic excuses for a white male, far right mass murderer

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/16/atlanta-massage-parlor-shootings
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on March 17, 2021, 03:36:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 17, 2021, 10:53:45 AM
Another young, male, white supremacist walking stereotype has gone on the rampage in Georgia

Expect Fox News to wheel out all the classic excuses for a white male, far right mass murderer

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/16/atlanta-massage-parlor-shootings

They'll hope to have him working as a "Fox News contributor" at some point. These domestic conservative terrorists have been radicalised by a constant diet of Fox News and hate radio up and down the AM dial.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on March 17, 2021, 03:56:14 PM
"Yesterday was a really bad day for him and this is what he did" -- a law enforcement official explains Robert Aaron Long's decision to kill 8 people in a strange manner
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 17, 2021, 04:17:37 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on March 17, 2021, 03:56:14 PM
"Yesterday was a really bad day for him and this is what he did" -- a law enforcement official explains Robert Aaron Long's decision to kill 8 people in a strange manner

Maybe they laughed at his manhood or something. ::)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 23, 2021, 07:57:27 AM
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/boulder-shooting-live-colorado-b1820880.html

The thing that gets me on some of these things is mass killer kills ten people including cop and they manage to arrest him, black dude gets arrested by side of the road manages to get killed..

No doubt thoughts and prayers will be said and guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on March 23, 2021, 09:44:30 AM
It just sad and sickening that America tolerates this violence.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Louther on March 23, 2021, 10:49:53 AM
There is normally narrative round these shootings that it is justification for gun ownership to protect and prevent these mass shootings and protect your own property. You'll often see ones interviewed saying that if people had their guns with them they could have prevented it.

Has someone with an open carry permit ever prevented any of these or taken out a shooter? Or is the reality that 99% of people in such a situation that the first reaction is run and get safe.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 23, 2021, 11:00:03 AM
Quote from: trailer on March 23, 2021, 09:44:30 AM
It just sad and sickening that America tolerates this violence.

Its just background noise at this point.

The ammosexuals don't want to yield even an inch and are supremely well organized and motivated politically.

Everyone else has basically given up, just hoping that it never hits them personally.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on March 23, 2021, 11:28:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on March 23, 2021, 11:00:03 AM
Quote from: trailer on March 23, 2021, 09:44:30 AM
It just sad and sickening that America tolerates this violence.

Its just background noise at this point.

The ammosexuals don't want to yield even an inch and are supremely well organized and motivated politically.

Everyone else has basically given up, just hoping that it never hits them personally.

I don't know if it's the case here, but if someone bungles a background check or sells a gun to someone they shouldn't have one, they should face serious jail time
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 23, 2021, 11:34:33 AM
Quote from: whitey on March 23, 2021, 11:28:38 AM
Quote from: J70 on March 23, 2021, 11:00:03 AM
Quote from: trailer on March 23, 2021, 09:44:30 AM
It just sad and sickening that America tolerates this violence.

Its just background noise at this point.

The ammosexuals don't want to yield even an inch and are supremely well organized and motivated politically.

Everyone else has basically given up, just hoping that it never hits them personally.

I don't know if it's the case here, but if someone bungles a background check or sells a gun to someone they shouldn't have one, they should face serious jail time

Colorado is a fairly lax state when it comes to gun control. And I'm sure even an extremely progressive city like Boulder is probably very limited in whatever local restrictions they can impose.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 23, 2021, 04:13:15 PM
Not that it would matter a f**k as the allegedly mentally ill psycho they just identified would have got hold of any guns he wanted a few miles away, but the NRA sued to stop the city of Boulder from banning assault rifles and won in court just last week. Ain't life grand!

https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjp7k5/a-court-stopped-boulder-from-banning-assault-weapons-just-days-before-a-deadly-mass-shooting (https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjp7k5/a-court-stopped-boulder-from-banning-assault-weapons-just-days-before-a-deadly-mass-shooting)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 23, 2021, 04:16:36 PM
I wonder how many nuts are out there, waiting for their "moment", now that COVID restrictions are being loosened and people are starting to get out and about again? Has to be a lot of pent-up paranoia and resentment and a lot of arsenals sitting idle, ready to go.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on March 23, 2021, 04:31:15 PM
Another guy having a bad day or a terrorist?

QuoteAhmad Al Aliwi Alissa

TERRORIST!!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 23, 2021, 04:38:23 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on March 23, 2021, 04:31:15 PM
Another guy having a bad day or a terrorist?

QuoteAhmad Al Aliwi Alissa

TERRORIST!!!

His family say he is mentally ill and antisocial, bullied at high school.

Maybe he found Allah and violent jihad and was pissed at the permissive ultra-liberal residents of Boulder.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rudi on May 10, 2021, 10:54:21 AM
Another 7 people shot dead in Colorado Springs CO. My favourite state in the US.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Ethan Tremblay on May 10, 2021, 11:36:37 AM
https://www.ladbible.com/news/latest-the-nra-has-been-called-out-for-its-confronting-mothers-day-post-20210510

America
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on May 26, 2021, 08:25:36 PM
This happened 5 miles down the road from me this morning

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/san-jose-ca-shooting-05-26-21/index.html
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on May 26, 2021, 08:37:10 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/10/06/opinion/guns-soul-of-america.amp.html

"The US needs "some sort of synthesis on the larger postindustrial/populism war. Over a century ago industrialisation brought on culture clash between agrarian populist and the genteel Victoria aristocrats.  Theodore Roosevelt transcended the fight by inventing a new kind of American nationalism. Meanwhile the progressives cleaned up elite corruption and nurtured a square deal for those left behind by technological change. Cultural leaders introduced new institutions and community forms like the Boy Scouts and the settlement house that drew from both cultures replaced them.  Today we need another grand synthesis that can move us beyond the current divide, a synthesis that is neither redneck nor hipster but draws from both worlds to create a new social vision progress on guns will be possible when the culture war subsides, not before. "
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 26, 2021, 09:04:04 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on May 26, 2021, 08:25:36 PM
This happened 5 miles down the road from me this morning

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/san-jose-ca-shooting-05-26-21/index.html

About a mile from us. My wife works for VTA but only visited that facility once a year, so we're all okay. I dropped my daughter off at daycare this morning and the air quality was shite, it was like burning chemicals or something. SJFD was fighting two fires, and they reckon it's related. The shooter burned his house when he set off this morning. He had no intention of coming back. That yard is right next door to the sheriff, the police, and all the weapons stores. This was a kamikaze mission.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: dec on November 30, 2021, 10:55:20 PM
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/oakland-county-michigan-high-school-shooting-11-30-21/index.html

"A 15-year-old male sophomore was arrested in connection with Tuesday's shooting at Oxford High School, Oakland County Undersheriff Michael McCabe said Tuesday."

"The three students killed at the shooting at Oxford High School in Michigan on Tuesday are a 16 year-old male, a 14 year-old female and a 17-year-old female, according to Michael McCabe, Oakland County Undersheriff. Another eight people were injured and transported to three nearby hospitals. "...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on December 01, 2021, 09:18:34 AM
Silence from a few usual suspects..   ::)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 30, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
Shoot first, ask questions later.

Their young daughter has to pay with her life. :'(

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mom-daughter-mistaken-intruder-father-fatally-shot-82002999 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mom-daughter-mistaken-intruder-father-fatally-shot-82002999)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 30, 2021, 07:02:56 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 30, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
Shoot first, ask questions later.

Their young daughter has to pay with her life. :'(

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mom-daughter-mistaken-intruder-father-fatally-shot-82002999 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mom-daughter-mistaken-intruder-father-fatally-shot-82002999)

I have a friend who's a big gun enthusiast and NRA member

Correct protocol in the event of an intruder are: (IIRC)

Arm yourself
Have your family shelter in a secure location
Call 911
Loudly identify yourself and state that the police are on the way, you are armed and willing to use deadly force
Command the intruder to leave
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 07:22:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 30, 2021, 07:02:56 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 30, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
Shoot first, ask questions later.

Their young daughter has to pay with her life. :'(

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mom-daughter-mistaken-intruder-father-fatally-shot-82002999 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mom-daughter-mistaken-intruder-father-fatally-shot-82002999)

I have a friend who's a big gun enthusiast and NRA member

Correct protocol in the event of an intruder are: (IIRC)

Arm yourself
Have your family shelter in a secure location
Call 911
Loudly identify yourself and state that the police are on the way, you are armed and willing to use deadly force
Command the intruder to leave

And if you are a cop you just have to say I was in fear fir my life, gets you off the hook every time. The case of Tamir Rice, a 12 year old with a toy gun
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 30, 2021, 07:42:31 PM
And another one...

Three year old finding a loaded, unsecured hand gun in the back of a truck

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/12/30/north-carolina-toddler-accident-christmas-shooting/9054438002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/12/30/north-carolina-toddler-accident-christmas-shooting/9054438002/)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 30, 2021, 07:45:50 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 30, 2021, 07:02:56 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 30, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
Shoot first, ask questions later.

Their young daughter has to pay with her life. :'(

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mom-daughter-mistaken-intruder-father-fatally-shot-82002999 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mom-daughter-mistaken-intruder-father-fatally-shot-82002999)

I have a friend who's a big gun enthusiast and NRA member

Correct protocol in the event of an intruder are: (IIRC)

Arm yourself
Have your family shelter in a secure location
Call 911
Loudly identify yourself and state that the police are on the way, you are armed and willing to use deadly force
Command the intruder to leave

Your friend sounds like a responsible and well-trained person.

Unfortunately, the NRA and their political pawns don't want any laws or regulations that might require gun owners to be responsible and well trained.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 30, 2021, 09:30:38 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 07:22:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 30, 2021, 07:02:56 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 30, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
Shoot first, ask questions later.

Their young daughter has to pay with her life. :'(

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mom-daughter-mistaken-intruder-father-fatally-shot-82002999 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mom-daughter-mistaken-intruder-father-fatally-shot-82002999)

I have a friend who's a big gun enthusiast and NRA member

Correct protocol in the event of an intruder are: (IIRC)

Arm yourself
Have your family shelter in a secure location
Call 911
Loudly identify yourself and state that the police are on the way, you are armed and willing to use deadly force
Command the intruder to leave

And if you are a cop you just have to say I was in fear fir my life, gets you off the hook every time. The case of Tamir Rice, a 12 year old with a toy gun

While tragic, after a thorough investigation by the DOJ, the officers were found innocent of any wrongdoing

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-closing-investigation-2014-officer-involved-shooting-cleveland

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 09:43:36 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 30, 2021, 09:30:38 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 07:22:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 30, 2021, 07:02:56 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 30, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
Shoot first, ask questions later.

Their young daughter has to pay with her life. :'(

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mom-daughter-mistaken-intruder-father-fatally-shot-82002999 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mom-daughter-mistaken-intruder-father-fatally-shot-82002999)

I have a friend who's a big gun enthusiast and NRA member

Correct protocol in the event of an intruder are: (IIRC)

Arm yourself
Have your family shelter in a secure location
Call 911
Loudly identify yourself and state that the police are on the way, you are armed and willing to use deadly force
Command the intruder to leave

And if you are a cop you just have to say I was in fear fir my life, gets you off the hook every time. The case of Tamir Rice, a 12 year old with a toy gun

While tragic, after a thorough investigation by the DOJ, the officers were found innocent of any wrongdoing

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-closing-investigation-2014-officer-involved-shooting-cleveland

You watch the footage? The child was 12! Only a f**king psycho would shoot dead a 12 year old. Any defending of this incident will tell you more about the person defending it.

I think the cop was sacked after they found out he was a nut job anyways!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 30, 2021, 10:38:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 09:43:36 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 30, 2021, 09:30:38 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 07:22:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 30, 2021, 07:02:56 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 30, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
Shoot first, ask questions later.

Their young daughter has to pay with her life. :'(

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mom-daughter-mistaken-intruder-father-fatally-shot-82002999 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mom-daughter-mistaken-intruder-father-fatally-shot-82002999)

I have a friend who's a big gun enthusiast and NRA member

Correct protocol in the event of an intruder are: (IIRC)

Arm yourself
Have your family shelter in a secure location
Call 911
Loudly identify yourself and state that the police are on the way, you are armed and willing to use deadly force
Command the intruder to leave

And if you are a cop you just have to say I was in fear fir my life, gets you off the hook every time. The case of Tamir Rice, a 12 year old with a toy gun

While tragic, after a thorough investigation by the DOJ, the officers were found innocent of any wrongdoing

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-closing-investigation-2014-officer-involved-shooting-cleveland

You watch the footage? The child was 12! Only a f**king psycho would shoot dead a 12 year old. Any defending of this incident will tell you more about the person defending it.

I think the cop was sacked after they found out he was a nut job anyways!

"At approximately 3:11 p.m., an individual made a "911" call to report that a "guy with a pistol" was pointing a gun at multiple people on the playground at the CPRC.  The caller gave a detailed description of the individual, stated that he was "probably a juvenile," and that the gun was "probably fake," but he also described the scene as very frightening.  On the date of the incident, Tamir was 12-years-old and stood 5'7" and 195 lbs.

A 911 dispatcher subsequently broadcast the call as a "Code 1" (the highest priority call) and Officers Garmback and Loehmann radioed that they would respond.  The information the dispatcher relayed to Officers Garmback and Loehmann was "there's a black male sitting on the swing.  He's wearing a camouflage hat, a gray jacket with black sleeves.  He keeps pulling a gun out of his pants and pointing it at people."  The dispatcher did not relay that the individual might be a juvenile or that the gun might be fake.  Thus, the officers believed that they were responding to a playground where a grown man was brandishing a real gun at individuals, presumably including children."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 10:52:07 PM
Read it and watched the interview after of the police guy who shot the kid, you can highlight that all day, if you don't know the difference between a child of 12 and an adult then you need your head examined.

Anyone defending his murder is a sick fcuk. No assessment was made at the time, it took 2 seconds for the cop to kill a child with a toy gun!

So guessing by your response you feel it's justified,and if you own kid was in the park with a toy gun and killed because of it, you'd be ok with the findings?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 30, 2021, 11:17:02 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 10:52:07 PM
Read it and watched the interview after of the police guy who shot the kid, you can highlight that all day, if you don't know the difference between a child of 12 and an adult then you need your head examined.

Anyone defending his murder is a sick fcuk. No assessment was made at the time, it took 2 seconds for the cop to kill a child with a toy gun!

So guessing by your response you feel it's justified,and if you own kid was in the park with a toy gun and killed because of it, you'd be ok with the findings?

Who said I'm defending it

I laid out the facts of the case

Cops have split second, life and each decisions to make every single day

Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 11:31:54 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 30, 2021, 11:17:02 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 10:52:07 PM
Read it and watched the interview after of the police guy who shot the kid, you can highlight that all day, if you don't know the difference between a child of 12 and an adult then you need your head examined.

Anyone defending his murder is a sick fcuk. No assessment was made at the time, it took 2 seconds for the cop to kill a child with a toy gun!

So guessing by your response you feel it's justified,and if you own kid was in the park with a toy gun and killed because of it, you'd be ok with the findings?

Who said I'm defending it

I laid out the facts of the case

Cops have split second, life and each decisions to make every single day

Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong

Split second? The kid was in the park for a while, they drove straight up to the kid, if you watch the footage, why go so close if it was a dangerous code 1? (if you've kids, you'll know difference in a nano second) within 2 seconds the kid was dead.

The cop shouldn't have been employed as he lied and no checks were made when he moved to the Cleveland police force.

Chasing a cracked out adult around the city I can understand, shooting dead a 12 year old with a toy gun is hard to understand.

Code 1 seems like a licence to have an opportunity to murder a child, or mention that you felt threatened in this case.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 30, 2021, 11:49:52 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 11:31:54 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 30, 2021, 11:17:02 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 10:52:07 PM
Read it and watched the interview after of the police guy who shot the kid, you can highlight that all day, if you don't know the difference between a child of 12 and an adult then you need your head examined.

Anyone defending his murder is a sick fcuk. No assessment was made at the time, it took 2 seconds for the cop to kill a child with a toy gun!

So guessing by your response you feel it's justified,and if you own kid was in the park with a toy gun and killed because of it, you'd be ok with the findings?

Who said I'm defending it

I laid out the facts of the case

Cops have split second, life and each decisions to make every single day

Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong

Split second? The kid was in the park for a while, they drove straight up to the kid, if you watch the footage, why go so close if it was a dangerous code 1? (if you've kids, you'll know difference in a nano second) within 2 seconds the kid was dead.

The cop shouldn't have been employed as he lied and no checks were made when he moved to the Cleveland police force.

Chasing a cracked out adult around the city I can understand, shooting dead a 12 year old with a toy gun is hard to understand.

Code 1 seems like a licence to have an opportunity to murder a child, or mention that you felt threatened in this case.


LOL

READ THE REPORT

"Meanwhile, Officer Garmback applied the brakes in an attempt to stop the patrol car, but due to the wet conditions on the ground the car did not stop where he intended and instead slid forward approximately 40 feet. "

To me the dispatcher is just as much to blame as the officers
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 11:57:01 PM
Watch the footage.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 12:06:17 AM
Now, I'm not sure what your take of 40 feet is but the footage shows it stops the car 4 feet away and they  shoot the 12 year old, they call it in after the shooting saying black male down.

They must have had black insulation tape over their eyes to get this so wrong.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 31, 2021, 12:06:34 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 11:57:01 PM
Watch the footage.

I did
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 31, 2021, 12:06:34 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 11:57:01 PM
Watch the footage.

I did

Righty O...

They should ban toy guns
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 31, 2021, 12:50:41 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 31, 2021, 12:06:34 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2021, 11:57:01 PM
Watch the footage.

I did

Righty O...

They should ban toy guns

Agree....

"Throughout the day, Tamir was frequently seen playing with a toy black airsoft pistol with a removable magazine that was visually virtually indistinguishable from a real .45 Colt semi-automatic pistol"

If I were a cop, I'd say fvck it. Pull up 30 yards away and put on the siren. If he ran away so be it......I''d  the same paycheck at the end of the week whether I apprehend the guy or not.

If it happened to be a real gun, and the un apprehended suspect went on to kill someone with it, well it's someone else problem
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 31, 2021, 04:26:39 AM
So how come this person with a toy gun was shot and a white neo nazi running round with a autonatic was fit to walk up to the police. Cop decide this wasn't a registered gun owner foreby the fact he's on a police force and can't identify a 12yr old child.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 10:04:12 AM
So ban toy guns but keep real ones, brilliant.

The family were paid 6 million in a civil case. The cop was assessed to be dysfunctional and sacked but it was a lawful killing of a 12 year old black kid.

This is why I wouldn't entertain the States as a place to bring up kids, normalising these killings and the way the police union will go to any lengths to defend them them is sickening.

A professional cop, should have the training to assess whether it's a boy or an adult, whether it's a real gun or fake, how to approach a possible real gun (don't drive 4 feet away) situation. Use of taser, assess who is at risk. How it was translated to the cops as code 1, that person needs to lose their job also.

The policy of shoot first seems to go against Protect and Serve ethos.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 31, 2021, 12:55:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 10:04:12 AM
So ban toy guns but keep real ones, brilliant.

The family were paid 6 million in a civil case. The cop was assessed to be dysfunctional and sacked but it was a lawful killing of a 12 year old black kid.

This is why I wouldn't entertain the States as a place to bring up kids, normalising these killings and the way the police union will go to any lengths to defend them them is sickening.

A professional cop, should have the training to assess whether it's a boy or an adult, whether it's a real gun or fake, how to approach a possible real gun (don't drive 4 feet away) situation. Use of taser, assess who is at risk. How it was translated to the cops as code 1, that person needs to lose their job also.

The policy of shoot first seems to go against Protect and Serve ethos.


You have a constitutional right to own a gun so they can't be "banned".

Yes, cops should have been fired and prosecuted-I agree

But it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be

Gun was indistinguishable from a real gun
The cops intended to stop the car further away but it skidded.
Dispatcher never told them it might be kid
Dispatcher never told them it might be a toy gun


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: general_lee on December 31, 2021, 03:19:27 PM
Seems any spastic with his eyes painted on can become a cop in America
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 03:20:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 31, 2021, 12:55:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 10:04:12 AM
So ban toy guns but keep real ones, brilliant.

The family were paid 6 million in a civil case. The cop was assessed to be dysfunctional and sacked but it was a lawful killing of a 12 year old black kid.

This is why I wouldn't entertain the States as a place to bring up kids, normalising these killings and the way the police union will go to any lengths to defend them them is sickening.

A professional cop, should have the training to assess whether it's a boy or an adult, whether it's a real gun or fake, how to approach a possible real gun (don't drive 4 feet away) situation. Use of taser, assess who is at risk. How it was translated to the cops as code 1, that person needs to lose their job also.

The policy of shoot first seems to go against Protect and Serve ethos.


You have a constitutional right to own a gun so they can't be "banned".

Yes, cops should have been fired and prosecuted-I agree

But it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be

Gun was indistinguishable from a real gun
The cops intended to stop the car further away but it skidded.
Dispatcher never told them it might be kid
Dispatcher never told them it might be a toy gun

Was convenient that it skidded to within 4 feet, the interview of the police office showed him to be not wise.

It still doesn't say how the shooter claimed he was a black male even being 4 feet away ( have you ever stood 4 feet away from someone in broad daylight and thought a 12 year old was an adult? )

When you get cases like this it really puts up red flags in how these numpties get a job and how are they trained! Is there a basic qualification needed to at least get an interview? Like A levels type?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 31, 2021, 03:26:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 03:20:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 31, 2021, 12:55:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 10:04:12 AM
So ban toy guns but keep real ones, brilliant.

The family were paid 6 million in a civil case. The cop was assessed to be dysfunctional and sacked but it was a lawful killing of a 12 year old black kid.

This is why I wouldn't entertain the States as a place to bring up kids, normalising these killings and the way the police union will go to any lengths to defend them them is sickening.

A professional cop, should have the training to assess whether it's a boy or an adult, whether it's a real gun or fake, how to approach a possible real gun (don't drive 4 feet away) situation. Use of taser, assess who is at risk. How it was translated to the cops as code 1, that person needs to lose their job also.

The policy of shoot first seems to go against Protect and Serve ethos.


You have a constitutional right to own a gun so they can't be "banned".

Yes, cops should have been fired and prosecuted-I agree

But it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be

Gun was indistinguishable from a real gun
The cops intended to stop the car further away but it skidded.
Dispatcher never told them it might be kid
Dispatcher never told them it might be a toy gun

Was convenient that it skidded to within 4 feet, the interview of the police office showed him to be not wise.

It still doesn't say how the shooter claimed he was a black male even being 4 feet away ( have you ever stood 4 feet away from someone in broad daylight and thought a 12 year old was an adult? )

When you get cases like this it really puts up red flags in how these numpties get a job and how are they trained! Is there a basic qualification needed to at least get an interview? Like A levels type?


READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT


"At approximately 3:11 p.m., an individual made a "911" call to report that a "guy with a pistol" was pointing a gun at multiple people on the playground at the CPRC.  The caller gave a detailed description of the individual, stated that he was "probably a juvenile," and that the gun was "probably fake," but he also described the scene as very frightening.  On the date of the incident, Tamir was 12-years-old and stood 5'7" and 195 lbs.

A 911 dispatcher subsequently broadcast the call as a "Code 1" (the highest priority call) and Officers Garmback and Loehmann radioed that they would respond.  The information the dispatcher relayed to Officers Garmback and Loehmann was "there's a black male sitting on the swing.  He's wearing a camouflage hat, a gray jacket with black sleeves.  He keeps pulling a gun out of his pants and pointing it at people."  The dispatcher did not relay that the individual might be a juvenile or that the gun might be fake.  Thus, the officers believed that they were responding to a playground where a grown man was brandishing a real gun at individuals, presumably including children."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on December 31, 2021, 04:18:34 PM
What does the leather on police boots taste like?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 05:01:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 31, 2021, 03:26:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 03:20:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 31, 2021, 12:55:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 10:04:12 AM
So ban toy guns but keep real ones, brilliant.

The family were paid 6 million in a civil case. The cop was assessed to be dysfunctional and sacked but it was a lawful killing of a 12 year old black kid.

This is why I wouldn't entertain the States as a place to bring up kids, normalising these killings and the way the police union will go to any lengths to defend them them is sickening.

A professional cop, should have the training to assess whether it's a boy or an adult, whether it's a real gun or fake, how to approach a possible real gun (don't drive 4 feet away) situation. Use of taser, assess who is at risk. How it was translated to the cops as code 1, that person needs to lose their job also.

The policy of shoot first seems to go against Protect and Serve ethos.


You have a constitutional right to own a gun so they can't be "banned".

Yes, cops should have been fired and prosecuted-I agree

But it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be

Gun was indistinguishable from a real gun
The cops intended to stop the car further away but it skidded.
Dispatcher never told them it might be kid
Dispatcher never told them it might be a toy gun

Was convenient that it skidded to within 4 feet, the interview of the police office showed him to be not wise.

It still doesn't say how the shooter claimed he was a black male even being 4 feet away ( have you ever stood 4 feet away from someone in broad daylight and thought a 12 year old was an adult? )

When you get cases like this it really puts up red flags in how these numpties get a job and how are they trained! Is there a basic qualification needed to at least get an interview? Like A levels type?


READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT


"At approximately 3:11 p.m., an individual made a "911" call to report that a "guy with a pistol" was pointing a gun at multiple people on the playground at the CPRC.  The caller gave a detailed description of the individual, stated that he was "probably a juvenile," and that the gun was "probably fake," but he also described the scene as very frightening.  On the date of the incident, Tamir was 12-years-old and stood 5'7" and 195 lbs.

A 911 dispatcher subsequently broadcast the call as a "Code 1" (the highest priority call) and Officers Garmback and Loehmann radioed that they would respond.  The information the dispatcher relayed to Officers Garmback and Loehmann was "there's a black male sitting on the swing.  He's wearing a camouflage hat, a gray jacket with black sleeves.  He keeps pulling a gun out of his pants and pointing it at people."  The dispatcher did not relay that the individual might be a juvenile or that the gun might be fake.  Thus, the officers believed that they were responding to a playground where a grown man was brandishing a real gun at individuals, presumably including children."

The playground was empty, they'd have assessed that already when they arrived. instead the only ones pointing real guns and shooting kids dead were the cops, who had history of being unable to control situations.  Their assessment took 2 seconds

I've watched the footage and read the report, I watched the interview also, he was 12 years old with a toy gun. If you've problems with how someone can't distinguish between that, then that's your bag.

I remember the brits killed a lad holding a paint brush on the Falls years ago during the troubles, knew the family, there was another young lad in Dunloy who went back to an arms dump he had found and told his dad who informed the police, they lay in wait and when that kid went back for a nosey they killed him, if I read the report on those deaths I'd still say they were not justified, if you'd read them you would be happy with it.

It's shoot first and ask questions later, it's not let's see what the real problem is, I suppose I could call in a 911 say my neighbour who's a gun hidden in his waistline( who I don't like) pulled it out a couple of times, and I'm scared, would the cops just shoot him ?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on December 31, 2021, 05:03:21 PM
Probably would if he was black.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 31, 2021, 05:26:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 05:01:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 31, 2021, 03:26:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 03:20:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 31, 2021, 12:55:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 10:04:12 AM
So ban toy guns but keep real ones, brilliant.

The family were paid 6 million in a civil case. The cop was assessed to be dysfunctional and sacked but it was a lawful killing of a 12 year old black kid.

This is why I wouldn't entertain the States as a place to bring up kids, normalising these killings and the way the police union will go to any lengths to defend them them is sickening.

A professional cop, should have the training to assess whether it's a boy or an adult, whether it's a real gun or fake, how to approach a possible real gun (don't drive 4 feet away) situation. Use of taser, assess who is at risk. How it was translated to the cops as code 1, that person needs to lose their job also.

The policy of shoot first seems to go against Protect and Serve ethos.


You have a constitutional right to own a gun so they can't be "banned".

Yes, cops should have been fired and prosecuted-I agree

But it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be

Gun was indistinguishable from a real gun
The cops intended to stop the car further away but it skidded.
Dispatcher never told them it might be kid
Dispatcher never told them it might be a toy gun

Was convenient that it skidded to within 4 feet, the interview of the police office showed him to be not wise.

It still doesn't say how the shooter claimed he was a black male even being 4 feet away ( have you ever stood 4 feet away from someone in broad daylight and thought a 12 year old was an adult? )

When you get cases like this it really puts up red flags in how these numpties get a job and how are they trained! Is there a basic qualification needed to at least get an interview? Like A levels type?


READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT

READ THE REPORT


"At approximately 3:11 p.m., an individual made a "911" call to report that a "guy with a pistol" was pointing a gun at multiple people on the playground at the CPRC.  The caller gave a detailed description of the individual, stated that he was "probably a juvenile," and that the gun was "probably fake," but he also described the scene as very frightening.  On the date of the incident, Tamir was 12-years-old and stood 5'7" and 195 lbs.

A 911 dispatcher subsequently broadcast the call as a "Code 1" (the highest priority call) and Officers Garmback and Loehmann radioed that they would respond.  The information the dispatcher relayed to Officers Garmback and Loehmann was "there's a black male sitting on the swing.  He's wearing a camouflage hat, a gray jacket with black sleeves.  He keeps pulling a gun out of his pants and pointing it at people."  The dispatcher did not relay that the individual might be a juvenile or that the gun might be fake.  Thus, the officers believed that they were responding to a playground where a grown man was brandishing a real gun at individuals, presumably including children."

The playground was empty, they'd have assessed that already when they arrived. instead the only ones pointing real guns and shooting kids dead were the cops, who had history of being unable to control situations.  Their assessment took 2 seconds

I've watched the footage and read the report, I watched the interview also, he was 12 years old with a toy gun. If you've problems with how someone can't distinguish between that, then that's your bag.

I remember the brits killed a lad holding a paint brush on the Falls years ago during the troubles, knew the family, there was another young lad in Dunloy who went back to an arms dump he had found and told his dad who informed the police, they lay in wait and when that kid went back for a nosey they killed him, if I read the report on those deaths I'd still say they were not justified, if you'd read them you would be happy with it.

It's shoot first and ask questions later, it's not let's see what the real problem is, I suppose I could call in a 911 say my neighbour who's a gun hidden in his waistline( who I don't like) pulled it out a couple of times, and I'm scared, would the cops just shoot him ?

So when the FACTS demolish your argument you bring up stuff that happened 3000 miles away 5 decades ago in an effort to manufacture some type of narrative

Police were wrong but not entirely to blame
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 06:40:32 PM
The bar is too high to convict these clampits, it's their word against the dead persons. No actual witnesses on the day as there was no one in the park, the only danger he was to anyone was himself if he fell off the swing!

What cops are very good at though is getting their story right, it must be the only thing they work on at cop school.

'Experts' on both sides were brought in. One set said it was unreasonable and the other said it was reasonable. Let's go with the cops on the expert side.

On reading the report (again) it uses the video to suit its own agenda and not a good video when it doesn't suit!

Anyways, America looks like a great place to live. If you're white
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 31, 2021, 09:27:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 06:40:32 PM
The bar is too high to convict these clampits, it's their word against the dead persons. No actual witnesses on the day as there was no one in the park, the only danger he was to anyone was himself if he fell off the swing!

What cops are very good at though is getting their story right, it must be the only thing they work on at cop school.

'Experts' on both sides were brought in. One set said it was unreasonable and the other said it was reasonable. Let's go with the cops on the expert side.

On reading the report (again) it uses the video to suit its own agenda and not a good video when it doesn't suit!

Anyways, America looks like a great place to live. If you're white


Who do you think the police were trying to protect from the "armed gunman"?

White people or black people?

I'll give you a hint.......it wasn't white people!

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2014/11/cleveland_neighborhood_where_t.html
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 09:38:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 31, 2021, 09:27:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 06:40:32 PM
The bar is too high to convict these clampits, it's their word against the dead persons. No actual witnesses on the day as there was no one in the park, the only danger he was to anyone was himself if he fell off the swing!

What cops are very good at though is getting their story right, it must be the only thing they work on at cop school.

'Experts' on both sides were brought in. One set said it was unreasonable and the other said it was reasonable. Let's go with the cops on the expert side.

On reading the report (again) it uses the video to suit its own agenda and not a good video when it doesn't suit!

Anyways, America looks like a great place to live. If you're white


Who do you think the police were trying to protect from the "armed gunman"?

White people or black people?

I'll give you a hint.......it wasn't white people!

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2014/11/cleveland_neighborhood_where_t.html

But they weren't protecting anyone but themselves, as they were worried about their own lives and killed a 12 year old because of it. There was no one ( in their own words on that report you mentioned) in the park when they arrived!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 31, 2021, 10:25:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 09:38:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 31, 2021, 09:27:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2021, 06:40:32 PM
The bar is too high to convict these clampits, it's their word against the dead persons. No actual witnesses on the day as there was no one in the park, the only danger he was to anyone was himself if he fell off the swing!

What cops are very good at though is getting their story right, it must be the only thing they work on at cop school.

'Experts' on both sides were brought in. One set said it was unreasonable and the other said it was reasonable. Let's go with the cops on the expert side.

On reading the report (again) it uses the video to suit its own agenda and not a good video when it doesn't suit!

Anyways, America looks like a great place to live. If you're white


Who do you think the police were trying to protect from the "armed gunman"?

White people or black people?

I'll give you a hint.......it wasn't white people!

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2014/11/cleveland_neighborhood_where_t.html

But they weren't protecting anyone but themselves, as they were worried about their own lives and killed a 12 year old because of it. There was no one ( in their own words on that report you mentioned) in the park when they arrived!


If they were worried about themselves they'd have stopped about 50 yards away and activated the siren and loudspeaker and told him to drop the gun

Who said anyone was in the park? They were trying to take a gun off the street.....period!

If he made a run for it and they didn't catch him, then they'd have been blamed if he had gone on to shoot someone else (assuming the gun was real, which is what they were told by the dispatcher)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 31, 2021, 10:37:02 PM
It's a thankless job Milltown

These guys put their lives on the line every day when they go to work protecting the regular law abiding people in these neighborhoods

One mistake chasing an armed suspect on a dark street and you could end up (a) dead (b) facing decades in jail

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bostonherald.com/2021/11/21/boston-police-squad-tackles-gun-toting-suspect-who-says-thank-you-for-not-shooting-me/amp/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 31, 2021, 11:59:27 PM
Worried about their own life's, why? Did the kid draw on them? How about identitfying if he was the correct person to start with,. How was he threating, was he Branding a gun in plain sign.?why they not ask him to raise his hand and get on the ground? Did they ask if he was armed? Sorta looks like the shoot to kill policy the RUC operated, and we looking some of them jailed yrs later, but in America people are regularly killed by police following no procedure. How these clowns get a job and how come they don't see jail+?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 01, 2022, 12:33:36 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 31, 2021, 11:59:27 PM
Worried about their own life's, why? Did the kid draw on them? How about identitfying if he was the correct person to start with,. How was he threating, was he Branding a gun in plain sign.?why they not ask him to raise his hand and get on the ground? Did they ask if he was armed? Sorta looks like the shoot to kill policy the RUC operated and we looking lf them jailed yrs later but in America people are regularly killed by police following no procedure. How these clowns get a job and how come they don't see jail+?

It was thoroughly investigated and they were exonerated based on the FACTS.....not what YOU heard on CNN

They showed up to a situation that was entirely different to what the dispatcher told them they were showing up to

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on January 01, 2022, 12:36:28 AM
Did the lad draw a gun on they or not? That's a simple yes or no?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 01, 2022, 01:02:48 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 01, 2022, 12:36:28 AM
Did the lad draw a gun on they or not? That's a simple yes or no?


According to the report

"At that moment, it appears that Tamir made movements of some sort with both his left and right arms.  The positioning of the moving arms suggests that Tamir's hands were in the vicinity of his waist, but his hands are not visible in the video. "

So are the cops supposed to wait for him to start blasting them before they take action?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 01, 2022, 02:00:42 AM
Quote from: whitey on January 01, 2022, 01:02:48 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 01, 2022, 12:36:28 AM
Did the lad draw a gun on they or not? That's a simple yes or no?


According to the report

"At that moment, it appears that Tamir made movements of some sort with both his left and right arms.  The positioning of the moving arms suggests that Tamir's hands were in the vicinity of his waist, but his hands are not visible in the video. "

So are the cops supposed to wait for him to start blasting them before they take action?

Imagine? Blasting them with a toy gun!? The carnage
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 01, 2022, 02:31:47 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 01, 2022, 02:00:42 AM
Quote from: whitey on January 01, 2022, 01:02:48 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 01, 2022, 12:36:28 AM
Did the lad draw a gun on they or not? That's a simple yes or no?


According to the report

"At that moment, it appears that Tamir made movements of some sort with both his left and right arms.  The positioning of the moving arms suggests that Tamir's hands were in the vicinity of his waist, but his hands are not visible in the video. "

So are the cops supposed to wait for him to start blasting them before they take action?

Imagine? Blasting them with a toy gun!? The carnage

That's not what they were told he had by the dispatcher

"Thus, the officers believed that they were responding to a playground where a grown man was brandishing a real gun at individuals, presumably including children."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: RedHand88 on January 01, 2022, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 01, 2022, 02:00:42 AM
Quote from: whitey on January 01, 2022, 01:02:48 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 01, 2022, 12:36:28 AM
Did the lad draw a gun on they or not? That's a simple yes or no?


According to the report

"At that moment, it appears that Tamir made movements of some sort with both his left and right arms.  The positioning of the moving arms suggests that Tamir's hands were in the vicinity of his waist, but his hands are not visible in the video. "

So are the cops supposed to wait for him to start blasting them before they take action?

Imagine? Blasting them with a toy gun!? The carnage

First of all it wasn't a "toy gun", it was an airsoft BB gun with the orange tip removed. The tip would have identified it as non lethal.

What would you do presented with that situation, knowing that hesitating could very well leave you dead?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 01, 2022, 11:05:12 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 01, 2022, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 01, 2022, 02:00:42 AM
Quote from: whitey on January 01, 2022, 01:02:48 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 01, 2022, 12:36:28 AM
Did the lad draw a gun on they or not? That's a simple yes or no?


According to the report

"At that moment, it appears that Tamir made movements of some sort with both his left and right arms.  The positioning of the moving arms suggests that Tamir's hands were in the vicinity of his waist, but his hands are not visible in the video. "

So are the cops supposed to wait for him to start blasting them before they take action?

Imagine? Blasting them with a toy gun!? The carnage

First of all it wasn't a "toy gun", it was an airsoft BB gun with the orange tip removed. The tip would have identified it as non lethal.

What would you do presented with that situation, knowing that hesitating could very well leave you dead?


He was 12, the chances he had a real loaded gun were slim to nothing, pulling up 4 feet away ( spare me the car slid 40 feet ffs) I'd have not put my self in a position of danger, I'd have asked him to put the toy gun down, there was no one else in the park so no danger to anyone but himself at this point, I'd have used my training and assessed it to be not a code 1 I'd have worked out he wasn't an adult either.

Here's what I would have done, I'd have waited more than two seconds to fire 2 shots into a 12 year old. The cop said he gave multiple warnings (in two seconds?!) if I can say that in one second I'd be doing well, ear witnesses heard the shots, then the warnings being shouted.

The cop lost his job in another police force but managed to get a job in Cleveland police department ffs!  A f**king liability on the loose, the other cop was done for assault before this incident. Two people you don't want with a gun, the police union are trying to get his job back ffs!

This is the same police who used up to 40 police cars chasing someone who didn't use a indicator and claimed the car was shooting at them, but it was a backfire, no guns no shooting from in the car but 137 shots fired into the car, one cop jumped up onto the car bonnet and was shooting like he was in some arcade game!

The police need training or accountability or both. There are bad guys and they need to be taken down but Christ the night when you watch or read some of these incidents you do wonder
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 01, 2022, 03:30:21 PM
Milltown Row

I think we agree on about 80% of what went on here

Cops should have been fired and prosecuted. The guy who shot Tamir should never have been hired in the first place. I'm also skeptical of the car skidding 40 feet, but if it made it into the DOJ report it probably happened.

But from 3000 miles away, the comfort of your sitting room and the benefit of watching and rewatching the video multiple times making statements like they should have known the gun was a fake and they should have known he was a juvenile is just pure rubbish

They were responding to a code 1 of an adult male with a real gun......not a cat stuck in a tree
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on January 01, 2022, 07:46:17 PM
How come a neo-nazi can walk up to the police with a automatic and not get shot Whitey. Was he not identified as a danger? Were the police not in fear of their life? Police in fear of their life, what way would they have cut it over here during the troubles? Probably shot up a couple of suspects without no evident of a gun present.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on January 01, 2022, 08:12:28 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 01, 2022, 07:46:17 PM
How come a neo-nazi can walk up to the police with a automatic and not get shoot Whitey. Was he not identified as a danger? Were the police not in fear of their life? Police in fear of their life, what way would they have cut it over here during the troubles? Probably shot up a couple of suspects without no evident of a gun present.
what are you talking about
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 01, 2022, 08:14:21 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 01, 2022, 07:46:17 PM
How come a neo-nazi can walk up to the police with a automatic and not get shoot Whitey. Was he not identified as a danger? Were the police not in fear of their life? Police in fear of their life, what way would they have cut it over here during the troubles? Probably shot up a couple of suspects without no evident of a gun present.

Because he wasn't breaking any laws and posed no threat to anyone that night apart from 3 Antifa low lives who tried to murder him
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 01, 2022, 08:23:59 PM
Speaking of the Troubles....you guys realize that NORAID was almost entirely funded by AOH/FOP types in the big cities with sizable  Irish American populations

You had no problem with them when they were sending you guns and money and getting Visas for Gerry Adams when he was banned from the country
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 01, 2022, 08:42:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 01, 2022, 08:23:59 PM
Speaking of the Troubles....you guys realize that NORAID was almost entirely funded by AOH/FOP types in the big cities with sizable  Irish American populations

You had no problem with them when they were sending you guns and money and getting Visas for Gerry Adams when he was banned from the country

Who is 'use' ?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on January 01, 2022, 11:23:59 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 01, 2022, 07:46:17 PM
How come a neo-nazi can walk up to the police with a automatic and not get shoot Whitey. Was he not identified as a danger? Were the police not in fear of their life? Police in fear of their life, what way would they have cut it over here during the troubles? Probably shot up a couple of suspects without no evident of a gun present.
The neo nazi's skin colour might have had something to do with it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on January 02, 2022, 12:31:01 AM
So it's OK to shoot a black 12yr supposedly carrying a concealed weapon and you happy enough with the police action there, but a white guy after shooting 2 people can walk up to the police, not get shot and u happy with the police action there. By the way you could kept Adams, would done us all a favour!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 02, 2022, 12:48:32 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 02, 2022, 12:31:01 AM
So it's OK to shoot a black 12yr supposedly carrying a concealed weapon and you happy enough with the police action there, but a white guy after shooting 2 people can walk up to the police, not get shot and u happy with the police action there. By the way you could kept Adams, would done us all a favour!

Did you miss the part where I said they should have both been fired and prosecuted?

No problem whatsoever with what happened in Kenosha.....it's an open carry state and there were dozens of people open carrying guns that night. The only people who got shot had attempted to murder Rittenhouse

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on January 02, 2022, 02:55:31 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 01, 2022, 11:23:59 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 01, 2022, 07:46:17 PM
How come a neo-nazi can walk up to the police with a automatic and not get shoot Whitey. Was he not identified as a danger? Were the police not in fear of their life? Police in fear of their life, what way would they have cut it over here during the troubles? Probably shot up a couple of suspects without no evident of a gun present.
The neo nazi's skin colour might have had something to do with it.
why are you calling him a neo nazi ?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on April 26, 2022, 06:13:39 PM
Not the best
https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1518923967930814468
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 26, 2022, 06:21:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 26, 2022, 06:13:39 PM
Not the best
https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1518923967930814468

But its their constitutional right you know.

Do young kids in Ireland do active shooter drills in school?

Mine do.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on April 26, 2022, 06:24:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 26, 2022, 06:13:39 PM
Not the best
https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1518923967930814468

There's a complete break down in law and order over here at the moment.  If anything it will lead to even more people arming themselves

https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/81-year-old-attacked-by-teens-downtown-crossing-mcdonalds-wants-justice/LIAV6ZZ5WBFOXKSHJ2HC5OJ3IY/?outputType=amp
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on April 26, 2022, 07:08:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 06:21:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 26, 2022, 06:13:39 PM
Not the best
https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1518923967930814468

But its their constitutional right you know.

Do young kids in Ireland do active shooter drills in school?

Mine do.
get out of New York it's a blue hell hole are you not copping on to that ?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 26, 2022, 07:18:48 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 26, 2022, 07:08:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 06:21:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 26, 2022, 06:13:39 PM
Not the best
https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1518923967930814468

But its their constitutional right you know.

Do young kids in Ireland do active shooter drills in school?

Mine do.
get out of New York it's a blue hell hole are you not copping on to that ?

So mass/active shooters are a blue state phenomenon, are they?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on April 26, 2022, 07:26:21 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 07:18:48 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 26, 2022, 07:08:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 06:21:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 26, 2022, 06:13:39 PM
Not the best
https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1518923967930814468

But its their constitutional right you know.

Do young kids in Ireland do active shooter drills in school?

Mine do.
get out of New York it's a blue hell hole are you not copping on to that ?

So mass/active shooters are a blue state phenomenon, are they?
not at all but the point still stands
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 26, 2022, 07:34:48 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 26, 2022, 07:26:21 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 07:18:48 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 26, 2022, 07:08:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 06:21:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 26, 2022, 06:13:39 PM
Not the best
https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1518923967930814468

But its their constitutional right you know.

Do young kids in Ireland do active shooter drills in school?

Mine do.
get out of New York it's a blue hell hole are you not copping on to that ?

So mass/active shooters are a blue state phenomenon, are they?
not at all but the point still stands

What point is that?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on April 26, 2022, 07:48:06 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 07:34:48 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 26, 2022, 07:26:21 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 07:18:48 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 26, 2022, 07:08:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 06:21:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 26, 2022, 06:13:39 PM
Not the best
https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1518923967930814468

But its their constitutional right you know.

Do young kids in Ireland do active shooter drills in school?

Mine do.
get out of New York it's a blue hell hole are you not copping on to that ?

So mass/active shooters are a blue state phenomenon, are they?
not at all but the point still stands

What point is that?
child abuse to bring up kids in that s@it hole .
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 26, 2022, 07:52:55 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 26, 2022, 07:48:06 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 07:34:48 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 26, 2022, 07:26:21 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 07:18:48 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 26, 2022, 07:08:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 06:21:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 26, 2022, 06:13:39 PM
Not the best
https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1518923967930814468

But its their constitutional right you know.

Do young kids in Ireland do active shooter drills in school?

Mine do.
get out of New York it's a blue hell hole are you not copping on to that ?

So mass/active shooters are a blue state phenomenon, are they?
not at all but the point still stands

What point is that?
child abuse to bring up kids in that s@it hole .

Ok then.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Tony Baloney on May 15, 2022, 09:38:51 AM
18 hear old lad drives 200 miles to kill 10 people whilst live streaming it. Totally normal society over there! I saw a couple of seconds of the live stream and actually thought it was a computer game. What a fucked up country that some weirdo can tool himself up like that and kill innocent people out doing their Saturday shop.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 15, 2022, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on May 15, 2022, 09:38:51 AM
18 hear old lad drives 200 miles to kill 10 people whilst live streaming it. Totally normal society over there! I saw a couple of seconds of the live stream and actually thought it was a computer game. What a fucked up country that some weirdo can tool himself up like that and kill innocent people out doing their Saturday shop.

Its 100 times more f**ked up that a significant proportion of the population then would defend his right to tool himself up like that.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on May 15, 2022, 10:38:09 AM
Don't know the ins and out of the latest incident, I see he was taken alive, how come when a shooter is white as in some serious shooting incidents he's took alive where as he was black there been no chance of that?. U notice a lot of these mass shootings are carried out by unstable white guys,
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 15, 2022, 12:18:59 PM
Will that toe rag Tucker Carlson continue his promotion of "white replacement theory" now?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: RedHand88 on May 15, 2022, 12:52:00 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 15, 2022, 10:38:09 AM
Don't know the ins and out of the latest incident, I see he was taken alive, how come when a shooter is white as in some serious shooting incidents he's took alive where as he was black there been no chance of that?. U notice a lot of these mass shootings are carried out by unstable white guys,

Any statistical evidence of that?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 15, 2022, 12:59:04 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 15, 2022, 10:38:09 AM
Don't know the ins and out of the latest incident, I see he was taken alive, how come when a shooter is white as in some serious shooting incidents he's took alive where as he was black there been no chance of that?. U notice a lot of these mass shootings are carried out by unstable white guys,

If he'd have had a broken tail light and been black he'd be fair game over there  ::)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 15, 2022, 03:26:16 PM
Crazy how someone who threatened to shoot up a school and was referred to a mental health professional by the State Police was able to "legally" buy 3 guns.

And supposedly NY has some of the stricter laws in the country
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 16, 2022, 01:41:24 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 15, 2022, 03:26:16 PM
Crazy how someone who threatened to shoot up a school and was referred to a mental health professional by the State Police was able to "legally" buy 3 guns.

And supposedly NY has some of the stricter laws in the country

The US is a sick society in many ways.

My kids have been doing active shooter drills in school since kindergarten.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on May 16, 2022, 02:14:46 AM
Yeah, mine too.

They have to sit in the dark, under the tables, until the teacher gives the all clear.

Breaks my hear.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 16, 2022, 02:43:05 AM
So he threatens to shoot up the school......then his father buys him a gun. He should be facing life on jail too
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 24, 2022, 10:04:43 PM
Reports coming in that some lowlife has just murdered 14 kids in an elementary school in Texas. For those who don't know, elementary school means they were aged 11 or younger.

I guess we can all await thoughts and prayers and nothing else once again from the elected representatives of the gun lunatics.

f**king scum.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Tony Baloney on May 24, 2022, 10:09:29 PM
I felt sick reading that on CNN. Takes a special kind of cnut to shoot small children. What a sick country but it'll just be chalked up as a stat and everyone will move on until the next one.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: dec on May 24, 2022, 10:11:57 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 24, 2022, 10:04:43 PM
Reports coming in that some lowlife has just murdered 14 kids in an elementary school in Texas. For those who don't know, elementary school means they were aged 11 or younger.

I guess we can all await thoughts and prayers and nothing else once again from the elected representatives of the gun lunatics.

f**king scum.

Any news on whether the shooters 2nd amendment rights were infringed. Wouldn't want that to happen.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eire90 on May 24, 2022, 10:17:58 PM
right wingers will just call it a false flag
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 24, 2022, 10:18:29 PM
Was he killed at the scene?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 24, 2022, 10:18:36 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 24, 2022, 10:04:43 PM
Reports coming in that some lowlife has just murdered 14 kids in an elementary school in Texas. For those who don't know, elementary school means they were aged 11 or younger.

I guess we can all await thoughts and prayers and nothing else once again from the elected representatives of the gun lunatics.

f**king scum.

I'm sure he's some stupid fvcker with a laundry list of red flags and somehow still got hold of a gun

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: thewobbler on May 24, 2022, 10:21:24 PM
America needs a reset.

The country is broke.

More worryingly, the Uk and Ireland are determined to become more American.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 24, 2022, 10:29:28 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2022, 10:18:36 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 24, 2022, 10:04:43 PM
Reports coming in that some lowlife has just murdered 14 kids in an elementary school in Texas. For those who don't know, elementary school means they were aged 11 or younger.

I guess we can all await thoughts and prayers and nothing else once again from the elected representatives of the gun lunatics.

f**king scum.

I'm sure he's some stupid fvcker with a laundry list of red flags and somehow still got hold of a gun

Just like the endless list of other dangerous f**kers.

Sandy Hook did nothing except fuel the paranoia of the lunatic right wing and make the likes of Alex Jones rich.

I expect this will have about the same impact.

Doesn't matter a f**k to any of these people until it hits them personally.

I think the Supreme Court is about to drop its ruling on a NY case challenging the state's century old concealed carry law. In a few weeks anyone anywhere in the US will be able to pack heat.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eire90 on May 24, 2022, 10:37:23 PM
did jones get sued over sandyhook he will probably keep quiet on this but he will probably get his jospeh watson to say something
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on May 24, 2022, 10:50:10 PM
Probably get some ex president offer his prayers, saying he long bought off by the gun lobby. I say there a mount of nutters in every country, ( America def way above the norm, when compared to nxt door neighbour Canada who have guns too) Most countries sensible have strict gun laws but we at the point were I just think Americans are stupid. That right to bear arms at the time it was written, was based on a ball loading musket maybe firing 3 shots a minute if u were good enough. Now there guns where 600+ rounds a minute are available to the local public. f**king Madness. The days of a commie under every bed attitude long gone. And America gives out about Russia, Iraq, Iran, etc and can't solve the 2 biggest problems in their own country, Guns and drugs.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Itchy on May 24, 2022, 10:54:04 PM
What a kip of a country. Looking down their noses at countries around the world yet allowing their own to be saturated with guns.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: dec on May 24, 2022, 11:17:54 PM
The NRA have their annual meeting in Houston this weekend. Trump, Abbott and Cruz will be speaking
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 24, 2022, 11:32:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2022, 10:18:36 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 24, 2022, 10:04:43 PM
Reports coming in that some lowlife has just murdered 14 kids in an elementary school in Texas. For those who don't know, elementary school means they were aged 11 or younger.

I guess we can all await thoughts and prayers and nothing else once again from the elected representatives of the gun lunatics.

f**king scum.

I'm sure he's some stupid fvcker with a laundry list of red flags and somehow still got hold of a gun

How easy is it to get a gun in America? Can any Tom, Dick or Harry wander into a gun shop and buy a gun, or are there any checks done? It really is a fúcked up country.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on May 24, 2022, 11:34:25 PM
This easy...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/sep/10/america-gun-licences-blind-people (https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/sep/10/america-gun-licences-blind-people)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 25, 2022, 12:06:48 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 24, 2022, 11:32:22 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2022, 10:18:36 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 24, 2022, 10:04:43 PM
Reports coming in that some lowlife has just murdered 14 kids in an elementary school in Texas. For those who don't know, elementary school means they were aged 11 or younger.

I guess we can all await thoughts and prayers and nothing else once again from the elected representatives of the gun lunatics.

f**king scum.

I'm sure he's some stupid fvcker with a laundry list of red flags and somehow still got hold of a gun

How easy is it to get a gun in America? Can any Tom, Dick or Harry wander into a gun shop and buy a gun, or are there any checks done? It really is a fúcked up country.

Depends on where you live?

Massachusetts difficult but not impossible. I know a woman in her 60s who had to wait for 6 months to get her permit because she had a DUI in high school (40 years ago)

In Texas you can buy one at a yard sale (supposedly)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 25, 2022, 01:21:32 AM
Up to 18 kids dead now.

Can you imagine the terror those poor youngsters experienced?

Can you imagine your own kids in their place?

What a sick, twisted ideology the American right subscribes to.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on May 25, 2022, 01:26:15 AM
Sick sad stupid Country.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Captain Obvious on May 25, 2022, 01:38:34 AM
Quote from: J70 on May 25, 2022, 01:21:32 AM
Up to 18 kids dead now.

Can you imagine the terror those poor youngsters experienced?

Can you imagine your own kids in their place?

What a sick, twisted ideology the American right subscribes to.

18 year old vile twisted individual. Killed his grandmother before killing all those children. I know Americans will never want to part from their guns but surely after all these mass shootings that weapons such as AR-15 semi-automatic rifles should not be allowed.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 25, 2022, 02:12:53 AM
No, nothing will change. 20 dead 6 year olds at Sandy Hook didn't. A few more young kids is just the price of "freedom" for these f**king whackjobs.

I guess my kids school will be running through the active shooter drills again next week. Just in case.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Muck Savage on May 25, 2022, 05:32:04 AM
And again another president comes out and condones the killing, blah, blah, blah. More Senators up asking what is happening blah blah blah. The great Kamala talking about having the courage to make change. Well f**king make change then!

You can blame Trump, Obama, Bush etc etc but today Biden has an opportunity to make change, democratic's have the majority in both house and Senate but nothing will happen because they are concerned about the next election and lining their pockets. I said it at the time that if Nothing happened after Sandy Hook nothing will happen with a corrupt government and a bunch of politicians that continue to line their pockets at the cost of millions of Americans.

There is a mental health issue in this country that also needs to be tackled. No mentally stable 18 year old could do this. There is a lack of respect for authority and a lack of respect for other people. The culture here in the US is going down the shitter.

Kerr the leader
https://youtu.be/i6oEMESFdx4
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Itchy on May 25, 2022, 07:18:28 AM
Guns in America is about money and greed, like everything else in that country. The lives of little kids are less important than that. The idiots who shout about freedom are just pawns who are easy to manipulate.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on May 25, 2022, 07:50:47 AM
America is so broken, once held up as a great country, freedom, strength, it now is a shadow of its former self. Any country that allows this to repeatably happen to its most vulnerable is just desperate. If these kids are the price of freedom then, I wouldn't want any part in that. It happens in no other country. Time Americans woke up.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Helix. on May 25, 2022, 09:34:55 AM
Quote from: Muck Savage on May 25, 2022, 05:32:04 AM
And again another president comes out and condones the killing, blah, blah, blah. More Senators up asking what is happening blah blah blah. The great Kamala talking about having the courage to make change. Well f**king make change then!

You can blame Trump, Obama, Bush etc etc but today Biden has an opportunity to make change, democratic's have the majority in both house and Senate but nothing will happen because they are concerned about the next election and lining their pockets. I said it at the time that if Nothing happened after Sandy Hook nothing will happen with a corrupt government and a bunch of politicians that continue to line their pockets at the cost of millions of Americans.

There is a mental health issue in this country that also needs to be tackled. No mentally stable 18 year old could do this. There is a lack of respect for authority and a lack of respect for other people. The culture here in the US is going down the shitter.

Kerr the leader
https://youtu.be/i6oEMESFdx4

Always harrowing when this thread gets bumped up with recent shootings.

Kerr's dad assassinated in the 80s close to the heart if not mistaken.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Ethan Tremblay on May 25, 2022, 10:19:02 AM
Quote from: J70 on May 25, 2022, 02:12:53 AM
No, nothing will change. 20 dead 6 year olds at Sandy Hook didn't. A few more young kids is just the price of "freedom" for these f**king whackjobs.

I guess my kids school will be running through the active shooter drills again next week. Just in case.

That in itself is insane. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 25, 2022, 10:32:45 AM
Quote from: Itchy on May 25, 2022, 07:18:28 AM
Guns in America is about money and greed, like everything else in that country. The lives of little kids are less important than that. The idiots who shout about freedom are just pawns who are easy to manipulate.

I don't think it's about money and greed at all. (AndI've lived here for 30+ years)

Gun owners will tell you it's about them exercising a right that's guaranteed to them under the constitution. No-one, especially a Democratic politician , is going to impinge on or diminish their rights.

That's the mindset that needs to be changed and it's not going to be easy given how stupid and stubborn some people are
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2022, 10:41:23 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 25, 2022, 10:32:45 AM
Quote from: Itchy on May 25, 2022, 07:18:28 AM
Guns in America is about money and greed, like everything else in that country. The lives of little kids are less important than that. The idiots who shout about freedom are just pawns who are easy to manipulate.

I don't think it's about money and greed at all. (AndI've lived here for 30+ years)

Gun owners will tell you it's about them exercising a right that's guaranteed to them under the constitution. No-one, especially a Democratic politician , is going to impinge on or diminish their rights.

That's the mindset that needs to be changed and it's not going to be easy given how stupid and stubborn some people are

What if exercising that right is wrong? What if exercising that right has brought untold pain to parents up and down the country due to lax rules in obtaining fire power that is not required and was not available when that 'right' to bear arms was made.

A full psychiatric test needs to be carried out before you just hand over a gun, there are five major mental illnesses — autism, attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder, bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder and schizophrenia, if you have any of these you should be not able to get a gun, that should be the bear minimum standard to reach.

Not go to a gun shop on your 18th and pick up a couple of guns for the craic !!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: smort on May 25, 2022, 10:43:41 AM
The constitution and 2nd Amendment were written the late 1700's!! Completely outdated would be an understatement. Needs major revision and and if that meant the Democrats losing the next 10 elections then it would still worth it
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Taylor on May 25, 2022, 11:10:05 AM
Constitution aside, even if it was changed, it is still incredibly easy to get your hands on a gun in some US states.

There are almost 400 million guns in the hands of civilians in the US - thats about 120 guns for every 100 people.

It accounts for 46% of civilian held guns globally.

Those stats are mind blowing alone.....not to mention the other guns on the streets that are not accounted for.

So if the constitution changes tomorrow would it make a difference given how many guns are readily available?

Its a complete mess
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rudi on May 25, 2022, 11:16:49 AM
Deeper malaise in American society that this keeps happening. The easy access to lethal weapons is the final nail in the coffin. But as said, as a society America is in a deep malaise. On average people are way more fuked up, Americans live in constant fear, driven by capitalist marketing & poor role models of influence in wider society.
Controlling guns would be a start, broader society is still fuked up.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Armagh18 on May 25, 2022, 11:26:15 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 24, 2022, 10:50:10 PM
Probably get some ex president offer his prayers, saying he long bought off by the gun lobby. I say there a mount of nutters in every country, ( America def way above the norm, when compared to nxt door neighbour Canada who have guns too) Most countries sensible have strict gun laws but we at the point were I just think Americans are stupid. That right to bear arms at the time it was written, was based on a ball loading musket maybe firing 3 shots a minute if u were good enough. Now there guns where 600+ rounds a minute are available to the local public. f**king Madness. The days of a commie under every bed attitude long gone. And America gives out about Russia, Iraq, Iran, etc and can't solve the 2 biggest problems in their own country, Guns and drugs.
Agreed. Can maybe justify concealed carry of a small pistol or whatever for personal protection and a rifle if you hunt, but these nutters running about with automatic rifles that shouldn't be seen outside of call of duty. Mad.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on May 25, 2022, 11:36:45 AM
Quote from: Taylor on May 25, 2022, 11:10:05 AM
Constitution aside, even if it was changed, it is still incredibly easy to get your hands on a gun in some US states.

There are almost 400 million guns in the hands of civilians in the US - thats about 120 guns for every 100 people.

It accounts for 46% of civilian held guns globally.

Those stats are mind blowing alone.....not to mention the other guns on the streets that are not accounted for.

So if the constitution changes tomorrow would it make a difference given how many guns are readily available?

Its a complete mess
So is the only alternative to do nothing?
Surely some level of gun control is better than the current situation? It might have a while to have an effect but might slowy reduce the level of gun ownership over time.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Taylor on May 25, 2022, 11:58:56 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on May 25, 2022, 11:36:45 AM
Quote from: Taylor on May 25, 2022, 11:10:05 AM
Constitution aside, even if it was changed, it is still incredibly easy to get your hands on a gun in some US states.

There are almost 400 million guns in the hands of civilians in the US - thats about 120 guns for every 100 people.

It accounts for 46% of civilian held guns globally.

Those stats are mind blowing alone.....not to mention the other guns on the streets that are not accounted for.

So if the constitution changes tomorrow would it make a difference given how many guns are readily available?

Its a complete mess
So is the only alternative to do nothing?
Surely some level of gun control is better than the current situation? It might have a while to have an effect but might slowy reduce the level of gun ownership over time.

I'm pointing out this this is not the resolution that will change things in the here and now.

Granted it might slowly reduce over time (it will be a long long time) but the issue is over 400million guns are out there.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on May 25, 2022, 12:05:20 PM
Quote from: Taylor on May 25, 2022, 11:58:56 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on May 25, 2022, 11:36:45 AM
Quote from: Taylor on May 25, 2022, 11:10:05 AM
Constitution aside, even if it was changed, it is still incredibly easy to get your hands on a gun in some US states.

There are almost 400 million guns in the hands of civilians in the US - thats about 120 guns for every 100 people.

It accounts for 46% of civilian held guns globally.

Those stats are mind blowing alone.....not to mention the other guns on the streets that are not accounted for.

So if the constitution changes tomorrow would it make a difference given how many guns are readily available?

Its a complete mess
So is the only alternative to do nothing?
Surely some level of gun control is better than the current situation? It might have a while to have an effect but might slowy reduce the level of gun ownership over time.

I'm pointing out this this is not the resolution that will change things in the here and now.

Granted it might slowly reduce over time (it will be a long long time) but the issue is over 400million guns are out there.
America may well have went past the point of no return when it comes to gun culture, but surely they have to try SOMETHING at this stage?
Powerful stuff from Steve Kerr in his press conference, but its unlikely to change many intrenched opinions either.
There is no simple solution to this, but banning assault rifles and having stricter background checks along side some sort of buy back scheme is bound to at least get the direction of travel going the right way?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Taylor on May 25, 2022, 12:07:25 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on May 25, 2022, 12:05:20 PM
Quote from: Taylor on May 25, 2022, 11:58:56 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on May 25, 2022, 11:36:45 AM
Quote from: Taylor on May 25, 2022, 11:10:05 AM
Constitution aside, even if it was changed, it is still incredibly easy to get your hands on a gun in some US states.

There are almost 400 million guns in the hands of civilians in the US - thats about 120 guns for every 100 people.

It accounts for 46% of civilian held guns globally.

Those stats are mind blowing alone.....not to mention the other guns on the streets that are not accounted for.

So if the constitution changes tomorrow would it make a difference given how many guns are readily available?

Its a complete mess
So is the only alternative to do nothing?
Surely some level of gun control is better than the current situation? It might have a while to have an effect but might slowy reduce the level of gun ownership over time.

I'm pointing out this this is not the resolution that will change things in the here and now.

Granted it might slowly reduce over time (it will be a long long time) but the issue is over 400million guns are out there.
America may well have went past the point of no return when it comes to gun culture, but surely they have to try SOMETHING at this stage?
Powerful stuff from Steve Kerr in his press conference, but its unlikely to change many intrenched opinions either.
There is no simple solution to this, but banning assault rifles and having stricter background checks along side some sort of buy back scheme is bound to at least get the direction of travel going the right way?

As you say there is no simple solution unfortunately.

My worry would be that the changes are made and then another massacre occurs.

Could you imagine the outcry of 'I told you so' fuckwits that oppose changes?

Imagine your kids doing active shooter drills in school - absolutely insane
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on May 25, 2022, 12:41:30 PM
My kid just turned 6. They've done at least 2 shooter drills in his class this academic year.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: RedHand88 on May 25, 2022, 12:51:08 PM
Why isn't Biden doing something about this?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on May 25, 2022, 12:54:42 PM
The NRA and gun companies love these events. Gun ownership increases as Americans run out and buy guns to defend themselves. This is the best advertisement these morally corrupt businesses can get.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on May 25, 2022, 01:01:10 PM
Time ye Irish folks upped sticks and got out of that sick Country.
Any place that puts the  owning an arsenal before health care is starting off from an insane point.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rudi on May 25, 2022, 01:11:48 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2022, 01:01:10 PM
Time ye Irish folks upped sticks and got out of that sick Country.
Any place that puts the  owning an arsenal before health care is starting off from an insane point.

The smell of the dollar is more alluring than the smell of cow shite for these former Irish boyos. Sure if your left you can blame the right & vica versa.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2022, 01:26:53 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on May 25, 2022, 12:51:08 PM
Why isn't Biden doing something about this?

What can he actually do, what can any president do that can't be turned over by the next clampit that comes in? If they the stormed the capital over the 'vote' fixing what would happen if they stopped people from having guns?  Be carnage, the senator Cruz says that the staff need to tool up and and defend the kids better... Someone needs to tool up and go to his grandsons school and use their right to bear arms, though listening to him he'd blame the teachers
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 25, 2022, 01:32:07 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on May 25, 2022, 12:51:08 PM
Why isn't Biden doing something about this?

Right now there is very little he can do. He simply doesn't have the votes. Joe Manchin, who effectively holds the balance of power and has a relatively commendable D rating from the NRA, is even opposed to sane measures like assault weapons bans (because he'll be out on his ear if he isn't).

And every time one of these atrocities happens, you wonder if THIS will be the one that finally breaks through for the voting public, but it never does. Sandy Hook didn't (20 six year olds). Las Vegas didn't (the guy shot more than 500 people FFS).

Guns is not a winning issue. But then the Dems are fairly useless when it comes to putting an effective message together and they have been for years. Mitch McConnell probably laughs himself to sleep with how ineffective Chuck Schumer has been as majority leader in the Senate. The Dems are a disparate coalition of interest groups, and gun control is just one of those competing interests. The GOP is far more unified, focused, strategic and motivated.

IMO, the Dems should seize on this issue this year and make the GOP live down their NRA subservience. Shove it down the throat of the public that Mitt Romney has literally received tens of millions from the NRA. Mitch McConnell and the rest of them the same. The argument against the free availability of all kinds of guns to anyone who wants them is fairly f**king simple. Run ads showing little kids doing active shooter drills. Make this latest psychopath a poster boy who simply went out and bought those weapons on the day he turned 18. Make an example of the fuckwit in Buffalo who secretly purchased his armory online. Show the utter moral bankruptcy and callousness of the Republican position.

But the Dems won't do any of this. There'll be some other story in a few days. And that will be that until the next "big one" (they're happening every day, but most of them are just background noise to American life).
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trileacman on May 25, 2022, 01:33:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2022, 01:26:53 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on May 25, 2022, 12:51:08 PM
Why isn't Biden doing something about this?

What can he actually do, what can any president do that can't be turned over by the next clampit that comes in? If they the stormed the capital over the 'vote' fixing what would happen if they stopped people from having guns?  Be carnage, the senator Cruz says that the staff need to tool up and and defend the kids better... Someone needs to tool up and go to his grandsons school and use their right to bear arms, though listening to him he'd blame the teachers

That's pathetic. "I'll do nothing because the next guy might undo". Try leading the country for a change. Yeah there's a host of conservative gun nuts but there's bound to be enough mid-line senators and congressmen to push through some kind of gun reform.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 25, 2022, 01:38:17 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 25, 2022, 01:33:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2022, 01:26:53 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on May 25, 2022, 12:51:08 PM
Why isn't Biden doing something about this?

What can he actually do, what can any president do that can't be turned over by the next clampit that comes in? If they the stormed the capital over the 'vote' fixing what would happen if they stopped people from having guns?  Be carnage, the senator Cruz says that the staff need to tool up and and defend the kids better... Someone needs to tool up and go to his grandsons school and use their right to bear arms, though listening to him he'd blame the teachers

That's pathetic. "I'll do nothing because the next guy might undo". Try leading the country for a change. Yeah there's a host of conservative gun nuts but there's bound to be enough mid-line senators and congressmen to push through some kind of gun reform.

There's not.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2022, 01:43:45 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 25, 2022, 01:33:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2022, 01:26:53 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on May 25, 2022, 12:51:08 PM
Why isn't Biden doing something about this?

What can he actually do, what can any president do that can't be turned over by the next clampit that comes in? If they the stormed the capital over the 'vote' fixing what would happen if they stopped people from having guns?  Be carnage, the senator Cruz says that the staff need to tool up and and defend the kids better... Someone needs to tool up and go to his grandsons school and use their right to bear arms, though listening to him he'd blame the teachers

That's pathetic. "I'll do nothing because the next guy might undo". Try leading the country for a change. Yeah there's a host of conservative gun nuts but there's bound to be enough mid-line senators and congressmen to push through some kind of gun reform.

It is pathetic and it happens a lot over there, strange place that turns a blind eye to murdering kids.

If Binden was able to, I don't think he can, what's is stopping a republican gun-slinging tooting shooting lover of the NRA from reversing that when they get into power with a big majority, as that will happen if Biden try's to put actual real reforms through?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: dec on May 25, 2022, 01:44:39 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 25, 2022, 01:33:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2022, 01:26:53 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on May 25, 2022, 12:51:08 PM
Why isn't Biden doing something about this?

What can he actually do, what can any president do that can't be turned over by the next clampit that comes in? If they the stormed the capital over the 'vote' fixing what would happen if they stopped people from having guns?  Be carnage, the senator Cruz says that the staff need to tool up and and defend the kids better... Someone needs to tool up and go to his grandsons school and use their right to bear arms, though listening to him he'd blame the teachers

That's pathetic. "I'll do nothing because the next guy might undo". Try leading the country for a change. Yeah there's a host of conservative gun nuts but there's bound to be enough mid-line senators and congressmen to push through some kind of gun reform.

The Senate is divided 50-50 and it requires 60 votes to overcome a filibuster. The Republicans are opposed to any attempt to stop 18 year olds buying what ever type of gun they want.

Texas Governor Greg Abbott urged Texans to buy more guns
https://twitter.com/gregabbott_tx/status/659427797853536256
"I'm EMBARRASSED: Texas #2 in nation for new gun purchases, behind CALIFORNIA. Let's pick up the pace Texans. @NRA"

Salvador Ramos followed his instructions and now 21 people are dead.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 25, 2022, 01:56:38 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on May 25, 2022, 12:05:20 PM
Quote from: Taylor on May 25, 2022, 11:58:56 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on May 25, 2022, 11:36:45 AM
Quote from: Taylor on May 25, 2022, 11:10:05 AM
Constitution aside, even if it was changed, it is still incredibly easy to get your hands on a gun in some US states.

There are almost 400 million guns in the hands of civilians in the US - thats about 120 guns for every 100 people.

It accounts for 46% of civilian held guns globally.

Those stats are mind blowing alone.....not to mention the other guns on the streets that are not accounted for.

So if the constitution changes tomorrow would it make a difference given how many guns are readily available?

Its a complete mess
So is the only alternative to do nothing?
Surely some level of gun control is better than the current situation? It might have a while to have an effect but might slowy reduce the level of gun ownership over time.

I'm pointing out this this is not the resolution that will change things in the here and now.

Granted it might slowly reduce over time (it will be a long long time) but the issue is over 400million guns are out there.
America may well have went past the point of no return when it comes to gun culture, but surely they have to try SOMETHING at this stage?
Powerful stuff from Steve Kerr in his press conference, but its unlikely to change many intrenched opinions either.
There is no simple solution to this, but banning assault rifles and having stricter background checks along side some sort of buy back scheme is bound to at least get the direction of travel going the right way?

If the will is there, they can get the guns out of circulation. Yes, it would take time, but what doesn't? As you say, buy-backs, bans, law enforcement focused on illegal weapons and trading etc.

But the logistics and details are not the problem. The lack of will is.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 25, 2022, 05:58:28 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2022, 01:01:10 PM
Time ye Irish folks upped sticks and got out of that sick Country.
Any place that puts the  owning an arsenal before health care is starting off from an insane point.

Depends what state you're in. California's pretty good by American standards. Still has gun violence, but it's at a much lower rate than states with loose gun laws and "stand your ground" laws. If you're somewhere like Florida then your chances of getting shot are quite a bit higher.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eire90 on May 25, 2022, 07:46:07 PM
nothing will happen until politicians way of life are directly effected
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 25, 2022, 08:35:20 PM
Quote from: Taylor on May 25, 2022, 11:10:05 AM
Constitution aside, even if it was changed, it is still incredibly easy to get your hands on a gun in some US states.

There are almost 400 million guns in the hands of civilians in the US - thats about 120 guns for every 100 people.

It accounts for 46% of civilian held guns globally.

Those stats are mind blowing alone.....not to mention the other guns on the streets that are not accounted for.

So if the constitution changes tomorrow would it make a difference given how many guns are readily available?

Its a complete mess

It is a total mess.

But even a few changes would start to make an impact.

>> Banning automatic weaponry across the board means the police can lift it and you if they find you with one. No grey areas or ambiguity.
>> If anyone sees someone looking a bit dodgy and carting around heavy weaponry, they'd have real cause to report them* and know the police could do something about it.
>> The weapons still need maintained, not to mention ammunition. Making parts and ammo harder to acquire will impact dumb 18 year olds.

*no longer just a case of - "that kids always a bit weird, but sure, what can you do?"


The initial impact won't be on 40 year old veterans - they know where to get weapons, maintain them and how to best get them somewhere unobserved.
It's the 18 year old dumb fuk that struggles to count beyond both hands.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Muck Savage on May 25, 2022, 09:20:41 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2022, 01:43:45 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 25, 2022, 01:33:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2022, 01:26:53 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on May 25, 2022, 12:51:08 PM
Why isn't Biden doing something about this?

What can he actually do, what can any president do that can't be turned over by the next clampit that comes in? If they the stormed the capital over the 'vote' fixing what would happen if they stopped people from having guns?  Be carnage, the senator Cruz says that the staff need to tool up and and defend the kids better... Someone needs to tool up and go to his grandsons school and use their right to bear arms, though listening to him he'd blame the teachers

That's pathetic. "I'll do nothing because the next guy might undo". Try leading the country for a change. Yeah there's a host of conservative gun nuts but there's bound to be enough mid-line senators and congressmen to push through some kind of gun reform.

It is pathetic and it happens a lot over there, strange place that turns a blind eye to murdering kids.

If Binden was able to, I don't think he can, what's is stopping a republican gun-slinging tooting shooting lover of the NRA from reversing that when they get into power with a big majority, as that will happen if Biden try's to put actual real reforms through?

If he tried and was successful in reforming do you not think the potential lives saved between reform and reform reversal would be worth it?
Always easier to blame the other guy or in this case party. At least try. Actions speak far more than 'thoughts and prayers with the families' comments that he will sadly be saying more times before he is out of office. Try at least!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2022, 10:01:45 PM
Yeah start the ball rolling, and if those reforms take shape and prove positive then brilliant. My thoughts on why it's pointless I'd based it on listening to the nut jobs on the radio these last two days talking about never giving up their rights!!

it's a pity they didn't start it after Sandy Hook.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 25, 2022, 10:29:15 PM
Quote from: Muck Savage on May 25, 2022, 09:20:41 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2022, 01:43:45 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 25, 2022, 01:33:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2022, 01:26:53 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on May 25, 2022, 12:51:08 PM
Why isn't Biden doing something about this?

What can he actually do, what can any president do that can't be turned over by the next clampit that comes in? If they the stormed the capital over the 'vote' fixing what would happen if they stopped people from having guns?  Be carnage, the senator Cruz says that the staff need to tool up and and defend the kids better... Someone needs to tool up and go to his grandsons school and use their right to bear arms, though listening to him he'd blame the teachers

That's pathetic. "I'll do nothing because the next guy might undo". Try leading the country for a change. Yeah there's a host of conservative gun nuts but there's bound to be enough mid-line senators and congressmen to push through some kind of gun reform.

It is pathetic and it happens a lot over there, strange place that turns a blind eye to murdering kids.

If Binden was able to, I don't think he can, what's is stopping a republican gun-slinging tooting shooting lover of the NRA from reversing that when they get into power with a big majority, as that will happen if Biden try's to put actual real reforms through?

If he tried and was successful in reforming do you not think the potential lives saved between reform and reform reversal would be worth it?
Always easier to blame the other guy or in this case party. At least try. Actions speak far more than 'thoughts and prayers with the families' comments that he will sadly be saying more times before he is out of office. Try at least!

But he won't be successful. The system is set up so that he can't be. White rural voters and their GOP representatives are over-represented in Congress and it is they who insist on little or no restrictions on gun control. And even if he is successful, the current Supreme Court will overturn it.

That said, I fully agree he should try. Hit these f**kers over the head with every victim. Make them get up there and defend it. Point out the insanity of their schools-as-locked-down-forts "solutions". Whatever it is, pick a message and stick to it. Don't let the country move on and forget about it. If it fails, try again.

The Republicans had massive success last year on a ludicrous campaign for the non-issue that was/is "critical race theory". Gun violence is a REAL issue. Follow their playbook and make it count.

I despise much of what the GOP stands for, but you have to give credit to them for their complete mastery of using issues, even fake bullshit ones, to motivate their voters.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 25, 2022, 10:33:03 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2022, 10:01:45 PM
Yeah start the ball rolling, and if those reforms take shape and prove positive then brilliant. My thoughts on why it's pointless I'd based it on listening to the nut jobs on the radio these last two days talking about never giving up their rights!!

it's a pity they didn't start it after Sandy Hook.

It did start.

Mitch McConnell was happy to block everything they tried. Over those kids dead bodies, basically.

Say what you want about McConnell and his lack of morality and decency, but he is an absolute master of his job.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on May 25, 2022, 11:25:13 PM
Covid lockdowns and the unrest of 2020 summer has probably meant there are more guns than ever before around the US and 99% of people who own them are never giving them up and that's the reality
Access to  guns and the state of mental health in the county is and has been a disaster,
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 25, 2022, 11:33:30 PM
Sandy Hook was 10 years ago, was mental health the cause then? Mental health is a problem in every country, the difference is here I can't go to the shop and get a gun while I'm picking up my groceries. Then decide I want to murder children
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 26, 2022, 01:09:02 AM
So the last two shooters had both come to the attention of the police - one for threatening to shoot up a school, the other for domestic violence

Yet both of them were able to legally acquire high capacity rifles-how hard would it be to enter their names into a state database of people who are prohibited from buying any type of gun. Keep in mind the Buffalo shooter is in NY-hardly the Wild West when it comes to gun control

To get a "provisional" license to drive a car you have to do a week long class and pass a test. Why shouldn't there be some similar type of class to buy a rifle

And as for that clown Beto, making a holy show of himself today-his comments during the Democratic primary probably caused thousands to actually go out and buy guns
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Mikhail Prokhorov on May 26, 2022, 01:17:44 AM
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on May 26, 2022, 01:35:26 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on May 26, 2022, 01:17:44 AM
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

What's that about in this context?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eire90 on May 26, 2022, 01:39:14 PM
if the tories lose next election do not be surprise if he orders  people on to the streets he will do it cryptically of course
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Mikhail Prokhorov on May 26, 2022, 03:34:43 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 26, 2022, 01:35:26 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on May 26, 2022, 01:17:44 AM
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

What's that about in this context?

if they don't act morally on gun control, it will be too late
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Captain Obvious on May 26, 2022, 08:46:23 PM
Ted unable to answer simple questions

https://mobile.twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1529729614309900290
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 26, 2022, 08:51:06 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on May 26, 2022, 08:46:23 PM
Ted unable to answer simple questions

https://mobile.twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1529729614309900290

Of course he can't.

Because he has no moral or intellectual argument to make to defend his position.

And he can't admit the truth which is that himself and his party are hopelessly compromised by the extremism and paranoia of their base and the money and influence of the NRA.

So instead he starts blathering nonsensically about Democrats and the media and politicization.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 26, 2022, 09:41:19 PM
22nd victim. The grief-stricken husband of one of the teachers who was killed died today of a heart attack. They leave behind four kids, three of them teenagers.

Makes your f**king blood boil.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Armagh18 on May 26, 2022, 10:08:41 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 26, 2022, 09:41:19 PM
22nd victim. The grief-stricken husband of one of the teachers who was killed died today of a heart attack. They leave behind four kids, three of them teenagers.

Makes your f**king blood boil.
Jesus Christ that is awful. RIP.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: weareros on May 27, 2022, 12:03:46 AM
Shocking stuff and turning out there was neither security for those poor children  or a police force with any balls. Only the teachers put themselves in harm's way. The mayor seemed more passionate about kissing the arse of his Republican governor than dealing with the issues. The video of him is an embarrassment. The lot should be thrown in jail but all will cover for each other.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 27, 2022, 12:12:24 AM
So am I hearing it right? The cops didn't go in as quickly as they should after getting the call and were waiting on a swat team?

While waiting this Cnut barricaded himself into a classroom and murdered kids?

Trained professional police didn't have the balls to go in but these stupid politicians want teachers to carry guns?  World gone mad
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on May 27, 2022, 12:16:39 AM
That seems to be the case.

Good guys with guns---and training---not enough to even challenge a bad guy with a gun.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 27, 2022, 12:38:27 AM
They don't trust teachers with library books. But apparently they want to trust them with guns. Even while trained armed police didn't have the guts to do anything. You couldn't make it up. The Republican Party is an evil death cult. And it must be brought to its knees. #RepealThe2nd
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on May 27, 2022, 12:56:54 AM
Lots of questions to be answered by local authorities and whoever else was there , lucky a border patrol agent responded to the situation and took the piece of crap out . Ironic that most of the posters responding would like that agency to be disbanded .
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 27, 2022, 08:12:18 AM
Quote from: Gmac on May 27, 2022, 12:56:54 AM
Lots of questions to be answered by local authorities and whoever else was there , lucky a border patrol agent responded to the situation and took the piece of crap out . Ironic that most of the posters responding would like that agency to be disbanded .

The border police? What a stupid stupid part to put in at the end. Armed police who have no issues squeezing the life out of people for traffic offences stay out of the building because of fear of being shot.. in turn this manic who on his 18th birthday buys guns, goes to a school and kills kids. But you focus your post on people wanting to disband border police!

What a twaty thing to concentrate on
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 27, 2022, 09:11:08 AM
Never mind that I doubt if a single person here has EVER asserted that the border patrol should be disbanded.

But, then you look at which poster is making the claim...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Armagh18 on May 27, 2022, 10:55:38 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on May 27, 2022, 12:16:39 AM
That seems to be the case.

Good guys with guns---and training---not enough to even challenge a bad guy with a gun.
Who the cops? Hmmm....

Jesus Christ you'd like to think that if some bastard was in a classroom shooting children you'd go in and try and save them no matter who you were or how well or poorly trained.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 27, 2022, 11:21:57 AM
Whole "good guy with a gun" line is a bunch of nonsense

Some of the high schools here are absolutely huge-it could take you 10 minutes to walk from one side to the other

Parkland had an armed school resource officer and it didn't make a blind bit of difference. I believe the protocol was/is to establish a perimeter which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 27, 2022, 12:25:51 PM
These politicians are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think arming teachers and putting an armed vet in every school is the answer. The shooters, like this guy this week, will just equip themselves so that they can shoot their way past. Its utter madness. Anything to avoid the bleeding obvious fact that the ludicrous availability and access to these weapons is the issue.

And then you get the other "argument" - "what's an assault weapon?" Or "there's no such thing as an assault rifle". Go away to f**k.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: dec on May 27, 2022, 02:05:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 27, 2022, 08:12:18 AM
Quote from: Gmac on May 27, 2022, 12:56:54 AM
Lots of questions to be answered by local authorities and whoever else was there , lucky a border patrol agent responded to the situation and took the piece of crap out . Ironic that most of the posters responding would like that agency to be disbanded .

The border police? What a stupid stupid part to put in at the end. Armed police who have no issues squeezing the life out of people for traffic offences stay out of the building because of fear of being shot.. in turn this manic who on his 18th birthday buys guns, goes to a school and kills kids. But you focus your post on people wanting to disband border police!

What a twaty thing to concentrate on

Are you new to threads on US politics?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on May 27, 2022, 02:58:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 27, 2022, 08:12:18 AM
Quote from: Gmac on May 27, 2022, 12:56:54 AM
Lots of questions to be answered by local authorities and whoever else was there , lucky a border patrol agent responded to the situation and took the piece of crap out . Ironic that most of the posters responding would like that agency to be disbanded .

The border police? What a stupid stupid part to put in at the end. Armed police who have no issues squeezing the life out of people for traffic offences stay out of the building because of fear of being shot.. in turn this manic who on his 18th birthday buys guns, goes to a school and kills kids. But you focus your post on people wanting to disband border police!

What a twaty thing to concentrate on
pointing out who actually went in and shot the guy and what agency he represents is twaty ?
You normally are only worried about the color of the attacker and if he surrendered or was shot .
An 18 year old buying 2 rifles is insane and that law should be changed but dreaming that law abiding people are giving up any guns is not realistic.
The police in the USA are demoralized and doing a terrible job in most parts of the country for a number of reasons and for the last few years seem to be more interested in staying out of any situation that may be dangerous of controversial and are trying to hang in there to get out with a 95% pension when the time comes . Ps they are not the ruc
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 27, 2022, 03:31:11 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 27, 2022, 02:58:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 27, 2022, 08:12:18 AM
Quote from: Gmac on May 27, 2022, 12:56:54 AM
Lots of questions to be answered by local authorities and whoever else was there , lucky a border patrol agent responded to the situation and took the piece of crap out . Ironic that most of the posters responding would like that agency to be disbanded .

The border police? What a stupid stupid part to put in at the end. Armed police who have no issues squeezing the life out of people for traffic offences stay out of the building because of fear of being shot.. in turn this manic who on his 18th birthday buys guns, goes to a school and kills kids. But you focus your post on people wanting to disband border police!

What a twaty thing to concentrate on
pointing out who actually went in and shot the guy and what agency he represents is twaty ?
You normally are only worried about the color of the attacker and if he surrendered or was shot .
An 18 year old buying 2 rifles is insane and that law should be changed but dreaming that law abiding people are giving up any guns is not realistic.
The police in the USA are demoralized and doing a terrible job in most parts of the country for a number of reasons and for the last few years seem to be more interested in staying out of any situation that may be dangerous of controversial and are trying to hang in there to get out with a 95% pension when the time comes . Ps they are not the ruc

GMAC-all the extreme lefties I follow on Twitter are using this as an opportunity to demonize Border Patrol. It's disgusting
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 27, 2022, 04:00:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 27, 2022, 03:31:11 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 27, 2022, 02:58:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 27, 2022, 08:12:18 AM
Quote from: Gmac on May 27, 2022, 12:56:54 AM
Lots of questions to be answered by local authorities and whoever else was there , lucky a border patrol agent responded to the situation and took the piece of crap out . Ironic that most of the posters responding would like that agency to be disbanded .

The border police? What a stupid stupid part to put in at the end. Armed police who have no issues squeezing the life out of people for traffic offences stay out of the building because of fear of being shot.. in turn this manic who on his 18th birthday buys guns, goes to a school and kills kids. But you focus your post on people wanting to disband border police!

What a twaty thing to concentrate on
pointing out who actually went in and shot the guy and what agency he represents is twaty ?
You normally are only worried about the color of the attacker and if he surrendered or was shot .
An 18 year old buying 2 rifles is insane and that law should be changed but dreaming that law abiding people are giving up any guns is not realistic.
The police in the USA are demoralized and doing a terrible job in most parts of the country for a number of reasons and for the last few years seem to be more interested in staying out of any situation that may be dangerous of controversial and are trying to hang in there to get out with a 95% pension when the time comes . Ps they are not the ruc

GMAC-all the extreme lefties I follow on Twitter are using this as an opportunity to demonize Border Patrol. It's disgusting

Yes, extremists, in general, are morons.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 27, 2022, 04:18:16 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 27, 2022, 02:58:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 27, 2022, 08:12:18 AM
Quote from: Gmac on May 27, 2022, 12:56:54 AM
Lots of questions to be answered by local authorities and whoever else was there , lucky a border patrol agent responded to the situation and took the piece of crap out . Ironic that most of the posters responding would like that agency to be disbanded .

The border police? What a stupid stupid part to put in at the end. Armed police who have no issues squeezing the life out of people for traffic offences stay out of the building because of fear of being shot.. in turn this manic who on his 18th birthday buys guns, goes to a school and kills kids. But you focus your post on people wanting to disband border police!

What a twaty thing to concentrate on
pointing out who actually went in and shot the guy and what agency he represents is twaty ?
You normally are only worried about the color of the attacker and if he surrendered or was shot .
An 18 year old buying 2 rifles is insane and that law should be changed but dreaming that law abiding people are giving up any guns is not realistic.
The police in the USA are demoralized and doing a terrible job in most parts of the country for a number of reasons and for the last few years seem to be more interested in staying out of any situation that may be dangerous of controversial and are trying to hang in there to get out with a 95% pension when the time comes . Ps they are not the ruc

Right now its not realistic, because the GOP and the NRA have made unfettered access to any kind of weapon a central plank in the culture wars and they are currently an extremely powerful political force.

But when it comes down to it, do the majority of gun enthusiasts really want everyone, everywhere to have unfettered access to military-grade weaponry?

Do they have a logical argument against why someone should not have:

1. to complete a proper background check, like you now have to do for many jobs or to even to get TSA pre-check/global entry membership?
2. to complete a proper gun safety course?
3. to have a gun permit?
4. access to the ownership of assault weapons without some very good reason?

Do the majority of police really want to be dealing with untrained, unrestricted members of the public who are in possession of weapons and protective gear that wouldn't look out of place on a battlefield?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on May 27, 2022, 05:11:24 PM
The blame for these deaths and all those gun deaths in the US lies at the door of the GOP. If you vote or support them, then you're complicit. It's really that simple.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rudi on May 27, 2022, 08:30:39 PM
https://gript.ie/what-if-lecturing-americans-about-guns-doesnt-work/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 27, 2022, 08:56:09 PM
Fair fucks to Beto O'Rourke.

About time a Democratic politician showed some balls and confronted these ghouls.

Let's hope we see plenty more of this.

The likes of Abott are absolutely enabling these mass murderers. Hit them over the head with it. They've no answer.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Muck Savage on May 27, 2022, 10:31:41 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 27, 2022, 05:11:24 PM
The blame for these deaths and all those gun deaths in the US lies at the door of the GOP. If you vote or support them, then you're complicit. It's really that simple.

It lies at the door of all politicians
Why haven Democratic Senators not tried to reform gun laws? get it to the floor and see who will and wont support changes to the laws? I keep hearing its pointless because the GOP wont allow it to pass or the next change in majority will overturn this. They wont do it because they are protecting their own political ass. Why is Joe not trying to make change?

One of the most progressive gun reforms in the last number or years happened in Florida driven by Rick Scott, yep, he is a Republican. Yet in a state like Illinois where there are two Democratic Senators its legal to buy a gun at 18, and every week there are 10's of deaths in Chicago where again there is a Democratic Mayor.

The deaths of these kids and people for the last 30 odd years lays with both political parties.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 27, 2022, 10:56:44 PM
No, the death of these kids lie at the door of who carried them out... after that it lies with how is someone, who is mentally unstable, allowed to buy guns and after that we go further down the chain of how it's approved by successive governments after successive shootings.

But hey, as long as you're stupid amendments are saved.  Proper f**king stupid people will produce proper f**king stupid people
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on May 27, 2022, 11:13:58 PM
https://youtu.be/OgneY-jBWes

it's always Sunny...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on May 27, 2022, 11:41:57 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 27, 2022, 04:18:16 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 27, 2022, 02:58:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 27, 2022, 08:12:18 AM
Quote from: Gmac on May 27, 2022, 12:56:54 AM
Lots of questions to be answered by local authorities and whoever else was there , lucky a border patrol agent responded to the situation and took the piece of crap out . Ironic that most of the posters responding would like that agency to be disbanded .

The border police? What a stupid stupid part to put in at the end. Armed police who have no issues squeezing the life out of people for traffic offences stay out of the building because of fear of being shot.. in turn this manic who on his 18th birthday buys guns, goes to a school and kills kids. But you focus your post on people wanting to disband border police!

What a twaty thing to concentrate on
pointing out who actually went in and shot the guy and what agency he represents is twaty ?
You normally are only worried about the color of the attacker and if he surrendered or was shot .
An 18 year old buying 2 rifles is insane and that law should be changed but dreaming that law abiding people are giving up any guns is not realistic.
The police in the USA are demoralized and doing a terrible job in most parts of the country for a number of reasons and for the last few years seem to be more interested in staying out of any situation that may be dangerous of controversial and are trying to hang in there to get out with a 95% pension when the time comes . Ps they are not the ruc

Right now its not realistic, because the GOP and the NRA have made unfettered access to any kind of weapon a central plank in the culture wars and they are currently an extremely powerful political force.

But when it comes down to it, do the majority of gun enthusiasts really want everyone, everywhere to have unfettered access to military-grade weaponry?

Do they have a logical argument against why someone should not have:

1. to complete a proper background check, like you now have to do for many jobs or to even to get TSA pre-check/global entry membership?
2. to complete a proper gun safety course?
3. to have a gun permit?
4. access to the ownership of assault weapons without some very good reason?

Do the majority of police really want to be dealing with untrained, unrestricted members of the public who are in possession of weapons and protective gear that wouldn't look out of place on a battlefield?
I would say if you made sure everyone who bought one of these high power rifles was a member of the nra they would not be used in any of these shootings. I would ban them if was up to me
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 28, 2022, 02:15:47 AM
Quote from: Muck Savage on May 27, 2022, 10:31:41 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 27, 2022, 05:11:24 PM
The blame for these deaths and all those gun deaths in the US lies at the door of the GOP. If you vote or support them, then you're complicit. It's really that simple.

It lies at the door of all politicians
Why haven Democratic Senators not tried to reform gun laws? get it to the floor and see who will and wont support changes to the laws? I keep hearing its pointless because the GOP wont allow it to pass or the next change in majority will overturn this. They wont do it because they are protecting their own political ass. Why is Joe not trying to make change?

One of the most progressive gun reforms in the last number or years happened in Florida driven by Rick Scott, yep, he is a Republican. Yet in a state like Illinois where there are two Democratic Senators its legal to buy a gun at 18, and every week there are 10's of deaths in Chicago where again there is a Democratic Mayor.

The deaths of these kids and people for the last 30 odd years lays with both political parties.

Mitch McConnell can either filibuster a vote or refuse to put it on the floor, depending on whether he is minority or majority leader. The Dems need 60 votes to bypass a filibuster. They have 50. We'll see whether they'll get 10 Republicans if next weeks talks about to anything worthwhile. I seriously doubt it.

And Illinois can have all the gun restrictions they want, but it doesn't mean shit when you drive a few miles up or down the road to Indiana or one of the other bordering states were gun laws, if any, are far more lenient.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on June 02, 2022, 12:52:54 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-01/tulsa-police-multiple-people-shot-at-medical-building

Arm the doctors and nurses
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on June 02, 2022, 01:24:42 AM
40 odd shot in Chicago last weekend gun violence out of control
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on June 02, 2022, 02:14:16 AM
Quote from: Gmac on June 02, 2022, 01:24:42 AM
40 odd shot in Chicago last weekend gun violence out of control

Cop shot there this evening....hopefully not too bad

They're in for a tough Summer.  Confiscated 12 guns from the teenagers at the beach riot last weekend
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Baile an tuaigh on June 02, 2022, 04:43:11 AM
Quote from: Gmac on June 02, 2022, 01:24:42 AM
40 odd shot in Chicago last weekend gun violence out of control

Over memorial weekend 72 shot 13 dead. Lots of Mass shooting that don't make the national headlines.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omochain on June 02, 2022, 06:13:20 AM
Quote from: Gmac on June 02, 2022, 01:24:42 AM
40 odd shot in Chicago last weekend gun violence out of control

You are correct. Gun violence is out of control. What do you suggest we do to control it.?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rudi on June 02, 2022, 10:17:29 AM
https://www.thejournal.ie/oklahoma-shooting-hospital-tulsa-5780991-Jun2022/

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on June 02, 2022, 10:23:46 AM
Quote from: omochain on June 02, 2022, 06:13:20 AM
Quote from: Gmac on June 02, 2022, 01:24:42 AM
40 odd shot in Chicago last weekend gun violence out of control

You are correct. Gun violence is out of control. What do you suggest we do to control it.?

He doesn't have anything to suggest.

People in Chicago can cross the state line south of the city and go into Indiana where it's a virtual free for all when it comes to guns. Starting next month, no permits or background checks even needed for 18 year olds and up for handguns. Any guns the cops seize can be immediately replaced from the endless supply from the surrounding states.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 02, 2022, 10:29:49 AM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on June 02, 2022, 12:52:54 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-01/tulsa-police-multiple-people-shot-at-medical-building

Arm the doctors and nurses

It was the person that left the door open that caused it
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on June 02, 2022, 10:35:01 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 02, 2022, 10:29:49 AM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on June 02, 2022, 12:52:54 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-01/tulsa-police-multiple-people-shot-at-medical-building

Arm the doctors and nurses

It was the person that left the door open that caused it

No, they need to arm all doctors and nurses with guns. After all, the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good one. Unless they are chicken shit scared like cops in Texas.

The whole thing is fecked up beyond belief.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: RedHand88 on June 02, 2022, 12:03:53 PM
All we all in agreement that we should stop taking our cultural cues from America?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on June 02, 2022, 12:06:52 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 02, 2022, 10:23:46 AM
Quote from: omochain on June 02, 2022, 06:13:20 AM
Quote from: Gmac on June 02, 2022, 01:24:42 AM
40 odd shot in Chicago last weekend gun violence out of control

You are correct. Gun violence is out of control. What do you suggest we do to control it.?

He doesn't have anything to suggest.

People in Chicago can cross the state line south of the city and go into Indiana where it's a virtual free for all when it comes to guns. Starting next month, no permits or background checks even needed for 18 year olds and up for handguns. Any guns the cops seize can be immediately replaced from the endless supply from the surrounding states.

https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/exclusive-jamel-danzy-speaks-cbs-2-charlie-de-mar-buying-gun-used-death-chicago-officer-ella-french/?ftag=CNM-16-10abd6g

A fuvkin teacher with a masters degree was the straw buyer for a handgun that killed a female Chicago cop. Straw buyers should be facing 20 years in jail
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on June 02, 2022, 12:18:12 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 02, 2022, 12:06:52 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 02, 2022, 10:23:46 AM
Quote from: omochain on June 02, 2022, 06:13:20 AM
Quote from: Gmac on June 02, 2022, 01:24:42 AM
40 odd shot in Chicago last weekend gun violence out of control

You are correct. Gun violence is out of control. What do you suggest we do to control it.?

He doesn't have anything to suggest.

People in Chicago can cross the state line south of the city and go into Indiana where it's a virtual free for all when it comes to guns. Starting next month, no permits or background checks even needed for 18 year olds and up for handguns. Any guns the cops seize can be immediately replaced from the endless supply from the surrounding states.

https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/exclusive-jamel-danzy-speaks-cbs-2-charlie-de-mar-buying-gun-used-death-chicago-officer-ella-french/?ftag=CNM-16-10abd6g

A fuvkin teacher with a masters degree was the straw buyer for a handgun that killed a female Chicago cop. Straw buyers should be facing 20 years in jail

Yep.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Baile an tuaigh on June 02, 2022, 01:02:50 PM
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/c69/BALLINTOY/47503EB8-443B-4425-871F-7BC68D81DCD4.png)


This is the crime statistics for April in Chicago. Usually when the weather warms up these numbers climb rapidly.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Mikhail Prokhorov on June 02, 2022, 02:16:41 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on June 02, 2022, 10:35:01 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 02, 2022, 10:29:49 AM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on June 02, 2022, 12:52:54 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-01/tulsa-police-multiple-people-shot-at-medical-building

Arm the doctors and nurses

It was the person that left the door open that caused it

No, they need to arm all doctors and nurses with guns. After all, the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good one. Unless they are chicken shit scared like cops in Texas.

The whole thing is fecked up beyond belief.

it's almost like getting a gun is too easy  >:(
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on June 02, 2022, 02:58:23 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 02, 2022, 10:23:46 AM
Quote from: omochain on June 02, 2022, 06:13:20 AM
Quote from: Gmac on June 02, 2022, 01:24:42 AM
40 odd shot in Chicago last weekend gun violence out of control

You are correct. Gun violence is out of control. What do you suggest we do to control it.?

He doesn't have anything to suggest.

People in Chicago can cross the state line south of the city and go into Indiana where it's a virtual free for all when it comes to guns. Starting next month, no permits or background checks even needed for 18 year olds and up for handguns. Any guns the cops seize can be immediately replaced from the endless supply from the surrounding states.
I could buy guns , drugs and all sorts of stolen property pretty close to where I live any day if I choose too but I do not , what's going on in inner cities and poorer communities is a cultural problem, if you lived in a nice home or in downtown Chicago anywhere within 15/20 minutes where all this crime is taking place do you think people are going to give up their firearms  ?
Raise the age to buy guns , no sale of guns to anyone who fails background check , mandated safety course to be taken before buying a gun .
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on June 02, 2022, 03:12:44 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 02, 2022, 02:58:23 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 02, 2022, 10:23:46 AM
Quote from: omochain on June 02, 2022, 06:13:20 AM
Quote from: Gmac on June 02, 2022, 01:24:42 AM
40 odd shot in Chicago last weekend gun violence out of control

You are correct. Gun violence is out of control. What do you suggest we do to control it.?

He doesn't have anything to suggest.

People in Chicago can cross the state line south of the city and go into Indiana where it's a virtual free for all when it comes to guns. Starting next month, no permits or background checks even needed for 18 year olds and up for handguns. Any guns the cops seize can be immediately replaced from the endless supply from the surrounding states.
I could buy guns , drugs and all sorts of stolen property pretty close to where I live any day if I choose too but I do not , what's going on in inner cities and poorer communities is a cultural problem, if you lived in a nice home or in downtown Chicago anywhere within 15/20 minutes where all this crime is taking place do you think people are going to give up their firearms  ?
Raise the age to buy guns , no sale of guns to anyone who fails background check , mandated safety course to be taken before buying a gun .

Why do they have guns in the first place? Not another suburb in a devoloped city outside of the the USA is full of houses, full of firearms. Absolutely insane
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on June 02, 2022, 03:41:03 PM
And there are socially deprived inner cities and towns all over the world with gang activity, crime, drug abuse and violence. Most of them aren't sitting with rivers of guns flowing into them fueling the never-ending escalation of murder and people getting caught in the crossfire that is present in Chicago and other American cities.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on June 02, 2022, 04:56:13 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 02, 2022, 10:23:46 AM
Quote from: omochain on June 02, 2022, 06:13:20 AM
Quote from: Gmac on June 02, 2022, 01:24:42 AM
40 odd shot in Chicago last weekend gun violence out of control

You are correct. Gun violence is out of control. What do you suggest we do to control it.?

He doesn't have anything to suggest.

People in Chicago can cross the state line south of the city and go into Indiana where it's a virtual free for all when it comes to guns. Starting next month, no permits or background checks even needed for 18 year olds and up for handguns. Any guns the cops seize can be immediately replaced from the endless supply from the surrounding states.

Yup. This is why Chicago is the only city the gun nuts ever want to talk about. Never Santa Barbera, never Pismo Beach, never Seattle, only Chicago. Chicago, Chicago, Chicago. I sometimes wonder if it's the only city other than their own that the gun nuts have even heard of.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on June 02, 2022, 05:35:20 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 02, 2022, 03:41:03 PM
And there are socially deprived inner cities and towns all over the world with gang activity, crime, drug abuse and violence. Most of them aren't sitting with rivers of guns flowing into them fueling the never-ending escalation of murder and people getting caught in the crossfire that is present in Chicago and other American cities.
they don't shoot Waco there in Mexico , Brazil , anywhere in Central America or Africa?
Watch out for Ukraine in the coming years
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on June 02, 2022, 06:20:36 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 02, 2022, 05:35:20 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 02, 2022, 03:41:03 PM
And there are socially deprived inner cities and towns all over the world with gang activity, crime, drug abuse and violence. Most of them aren't sitting with rivers of guns flowing into them fueling the never-ending escalation of murder and people getting caught in the crossfire that is present in Chicago and other American cities.
they don't shoot Waco there in Mexico , Brazil , anywhere in Central America or Africa?
Watch out for Ukraine in the coming years

I don't know what that means.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rudi on June 07, 2022, 08:28:03 AM
https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2022/0607/1303348-florida-shooting/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rudi on June 07, 2022, 09:06:08 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azRl1dI-Cts
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on June 07, 2022, 11:06:30 AM
Murder rate per 100k
St Louis 65.54
Baltimore 58.27
Birmingham 50.62
Detroit 41.45
Dayton 34.18
Baton Rouge 31.72
New Orleans 30.67
Kansas 29.88
Memphis 29.21

I wonder how rates were in the 60s
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on June 07, 2022, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 07, 2022, 11:06:30 AM
Murder rate per 100k
St Louis 65.54
Baltimore 58.27
Birmingham 50.62
Detroit 41.45
Dayton 34.18
Baton Rouge 31.72
New Orleans 30.67
Kansas 29.88
Memphis 29.21

I wonder how rates were in the 60s
probably 95% gang related in these cities.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on June 07, 2022, 05:24:02 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 07, 2022, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 07, 2022, 11:06:30 AM
Murder rate per 100k
St Louis 65.54
Baltimore 58.27
Birmingham 50.62
Detroit 41.45
Dayton 34.18
Baton Rouge 31.72
New Orleans 30.67
Kansas 29.88
Memphis 29.21

I wonder how rates were in the 60s
probably 95% gang related in these cities.

Ah sure that's ok then.  ::)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on June 07, 2022, 05:26:07 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on June 07, 2022, 05:24:02 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 07, 2022, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 07, 2022, 11:06:30 AM
Murder rate per 100k
St Louis 65.54
Baltimore 58.27
Birmingham 50.62
Detroit 41.45
Dayton 34.18
Baton Rouge 31.72
New Orleans 30.67
Kansas 29.88
Memphis 29.21

I wonder how rates were in the 60s
probably 95% gang related in these cities.

Ah sure that's ok then.  ::)

Do people in Ireland necessarily care when criminals and other involved in family feuds kill each other?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Loughshore2022 on June 07, 2022, 11:09:50 PM
Incels get blamed for most shootings which is discrimination. The media tried to bring incels into the Texas shooting due to his loner status. All the men in prisons are non incel men with many previous girlfriends yet the media call us the dangerous ones? Only one US shooting had incel roots, Isla Vista in 2014. All other shootings were related to mental illness or racism. What America really needs to do is sort out the bullying in their schools but I don't think it can be sorted as it is a part of human nature to bully the weak.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on June 08, 2022, 12:29:34 AM
Awwww, the poor little snowflake incels.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on June 08, 2022, 01:24:07 AM
Are incels  not considered "dangerous" due to the violent misogyny espoused by many on their online forums in addition to several mass murders?

Is incel culture/philosophy something that should be respected?

There are plenty of people who go through dry spells or for whatever reason struggle to get a date or get laid, but they don't retreat into a self-pitying culture of resentment and grievance against the opposite sex.

Unless there is more to the incel state than this?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnnycool on June 08, 2022, 08:10:18 AM
Quote from: Loughshore2022 on June 07, 2022, 11:09:50 PM
Incels get blamed for most shootings which is discrimination. The media tried to bring incels into the Texas shooting due to his loner status. All the men in prisons are non incel men with many previous girlfriends yet the media call us the dangerous ones? Only one US shooting had incel roots, Isla Vista in 2014. All other shootings were related to mental illness or racism. What America really needs to do is sort out the bullying in their schools but I don't think it can be sorted as it is a part of human nature to bully the weak.

For a neanderthal maybe.

Intelligence and morals are meant to help us override these animal instincts which you evidently are prepared to accept.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: LeoMc on June 08, 2022, 08:23:19 AM
Quote from: Loughshore2022 on June 07, 2022, 11:09:50 PM
Incels get blamed for most shootings which is discrimination. The media tried to bring incels into the Texas shooting due to his loner status. All the men in prisons are non incel men with many previous girlfriends yet the media call us the dangerous ones? Only one US shooting had incel roots, Isla Vista in 2014. All other shootings were related to mental illness or racism. What America really needs to do is sort out the bullying in their schools but I don't think it can be sorted as it is a part of human nature to bully the weak.
Where to start with that sentence....
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on June 08, 2022, 10:43:17 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 09, 2019, 04:11:03 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 04:09:30 PM


I'm all for gun regulation and extremely tight regulation at that. I'm in favor of a gun buyback program. I'm in favor of people needing to take out extra homeowners insurance. I'm in favor of taking away guns from domestic abusers, substance abusers and anyone with a criminal record. I'm in favor of upping the age at which people can buy guns. I'm in favor of banning high capacity magazines. I'm in favor abolishing open carry laws. I'm in favor of restricting the storage and use of assault weapons to secure shooting ranges. I'm in favor of background checks that include a trip to the proctologist

What I'm not of favor of is an overblown knee jerk reaction to ban assault weapons that  provides some great talking points to CNN but will prevent less than 1% of gun deaths

Why?

Still?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on June 09, 2022, 03:19:10 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 08, 2022, 10:43:17 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 09, 2019, 04:11:03 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 04:09:30 PM


I'm all for gun regulation and extremely tight regulation at that. I'm in favor of a gun buyback program. I'm in favor of people needing to take out extra homeowners insurance. I'm in favor of taking away guns from domestic abusers, substance abusers and anyone with a criminal record. I'm in favor of upping the age at which people can buy guns. I'm in favor of banning high capacity magazines. I'm in favor abolishing open carry laws. I'm in favor of restricting the storage and use of assault weapons to secure shooting ranges. I'm in favor of background checks that include a trip to the proctologist

What I'm not of favor of is an overblown knee jerk reaction to ban assault weapons that  provides some great talking points to CNN but will prevent less than 1% of gun deaths

Why?

Still?

1% of gun deaths is still 400 people per year. I'm sure there are many more injured.

Assault weapons should absolutely be banned. There is no reason someone should have one except if its needed for their work.

And just about all of those very reasonable things whitey said he supports are completely anathema to the American right. Good luck competing in a Republican primary with any of that on your platform.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on June 09, 2022, 03:32:34 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 08, 2022, 10:43:17 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 09, 2019, 04:11:03 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 04:09:30 PM


I'm all for gun regulation and extremely tight regulation at that. I'm in favor of a gun buyback program. I'm in favor of people needing to take out extra homeowners insurance. I'm in favor of taking away guns from domestic abusers, substance abusers and anyone with a criminal record. I'm in favor of upping the age at which people can buy guns. I'm in favor of banning high capacity magazines. I'm in favor abolishing open carry laws. I'm in favor of restricting the storage and use of assault weapons to secure shooting ranges. I'm in favor of background checks that include a trip to the proctologist

What I'm not of favor of is an overblown knee jerk reaction to ban assault weapons that  provides some great talking points to CNN but will prevent less than 1% of gun deaths

Why?

Still?


There are millions of law abiding citizens who own these guns who have extensive firearms training either through their gun clubs or the military. Why should their constitutional rights be infringed upon because of the actions of a handful of madmen?

Also please note what I said-"I'm in favor of restricting the storage and use of assault weapons to secure shooting ranges."

So you can't have one at your house and you can't have one in your car (if I had my way)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Armagh18 on June 09, 2022, 03:49:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 09, 2022, 03:32:34 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 08, 2022, 10:43:17 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 09, 2019, 04:11:03 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 09, 2019, 04:09:30 PM


I'm all for gun regulation and extremely tight regulation at that. I'm in favor of a gun buyback program. I'm in favor of people needing to take out extra homeowners insurance. I'm in favor of taking away guns from domestic abusers, substance abusers and anyone with a criminal record. I'm in favor of upping the age at which people can buy guns. I'm in favor of banning high capacity magazines. I'm in favor abolishing open carry laws. I'm in favor of restricting the storage and use of assault weapons to secure shooting ranges. I'm in favor of background checks that include a trip to the proctologist

What I'm not of favor of is an overblown knee jerk reaction to ban assault weapons that  provides some great talking points to CNN but will prevent less than 1% of gun deaths

Why?

Still?


There are millions of law abiding citizens who own these guns who have extensive firearms training either through their gun clubs or the military. Why should their constitutional rights be infringed upon because of the actions of a handful of madmen?

Also please note what I said-"I'm in favor of restricting the storage and use of assault weapons to secure shooting ranges."

So you can't have one at your house and you can't have one in your car (if I had my way)
Reasonable enough. I don't think anyone is really arguing against that!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: general_lee on June 09, 2022, 08:29:43 PM
What is the need to own or use an assault rifle?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on June 09, 2022, 08:35:31 PM
Killing prairie dogs and raccoons

(https://i0.wp.com/entomologytoday.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/prairie-dogs.jpg?resize=878%2C608&ssl=1)
(http://www.mendonomasightings.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/A-mother-Raccoon-with-her-cubs-by-Siegfried-Matull-Medium-.jpg)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on June 09, 2022, 08:40:15 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on June 09, 2022, 08:35:31 PM
Killing prairie dogs and raccoons

(https://i0.wp.com/entomologytoday.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/prairie-dogs.jpg?resize=878%2C608&ssl=1)
(http://www.mendonomasightings.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/A-mother-Raccoon-with-her-cubs-by-Siegfried-Matull-Medium-.jpg)
do you think the US should be more like Canada where Castro jr just makes up whatever laws he wants
That's why Americans will never part with any guns .
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: tonto1888 on June 10, 2022, 04:08:14 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 09, 2022, 08:29:43 PM
What is the need to own or use an assault rifle?

there is none
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on June 10, 2022, 04:37:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 10, 2022, 04:08:14 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 09, 2022, 08:29:43 PM
What is the need to own or use an assault rifle?

there is none


Actually there is

The rationale that "some" of these gun owners have is that they need to have the same fire power as (a) criminals and (b) law enforcement. In the event that a tyrant takes over the country they need to be able to fight fire with fire

Now whether you think that's a bunch of mullarkey or not, is besides the point. That's where the right to bear arms comes into play

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on June 10, 2022, 04:46:46 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2022, 04:37:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 10, 2022, 04:08:14 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 09, 2022, 08:29:43 PM
What is the need to own or use an assault rifle?

there is none


Actually there is

The rationale that "some" of these gun owners have is that they need to have the same fire power as (a) criminals and (b) law enforcement. In the event that a tyrant takes over the country they need to be able to fight fire with fire

Now whether you think that's a bunch of mullarkey or not, is besides the point. That's where the right to bear arms comes into play

That is horse shit. Nobody is denying anyone the right to bear arms. But there is no reason in the world for any civilian to have assault rifles and the like. And there is no reason why any responsible gun owner shouldn't be subject to extensive background checks before they purchase or have ownership of a gun.

In addition to all this waffle about but sure they'd get the guns of the black market etc. Yes, they would but the point is it would be much harder for them and it might just have prevented even one of those mass shootings at various schools over the years. Would that itself not be worth it?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: general_lee on June 10, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 09, 2022, 08:40:15 PM
That's why Americans will never part with any guns .
Americans are morons
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on June 10, 2022, 05:23:44 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on June 10, 2022, 04:46:46 PM
Quote from: whitey on June 10, 2022, 04:37:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 10, 2022, 04:08:14 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 09, 2022, 08:29:43 PM
What is the need to own or use an assault rifle?

there is none


Actually there is

The rationale that "some" of these gun owners have is that they need to have the same fire power as (a) criminals and (b) law enforcement. In the event that a tyrant takes over the country they need to be able to fight fire with fire

Now whether you think that's a bunch of mullarkey or not, is besides the point. That's where the right to bear arms comes into play

That is horse shit. Nobody is denying anyone the right to bear arms. But there is no reason in the world for any civilian to have assault rifles and the like. And there is no reason why any responsible gun owner shouldn't be subject to extensive background checks before they purchase or have ownership of a gun.

In addition to all this waffle about but sure they'd get the guns of the black market etc. Yes, they would but the point is it would be much harder for them and it might just have prevented even one of those mass shootings at various schools over the years. Would that itself not be worth it?

Believe what you want

I don't own a gun but I know plenty of people who do and that's what many of them will tell you (especially former military)

They'll also tell you that <1% of murders are attributable to Assault weapons so banning them is  nothing more than a token exercise in political correctness

The gun debate and the abortion debate have many parallels. The hardliners will tell you that ANY restrictions are just the beginning of a slippery slope.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 08:36:50 PM
Give them as many guns as they want... Ban the ammunition, that's not part of their stupid amendments
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 09:12:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 08:36:50 PM
Give them as many guns as they want... Ban the ammunition, that's not part of their stupid amendments
were you happy that Irish republican's had weapons in the occupied 6 counties during the troubles ?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 09:17:39 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 09:12:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 08:36:50 PM
Give them as many guns as they want... Ban the ammunition, that's not part of their stupid amendments
were you happy that Irish republican's had weapons in the occupied 6 counties during the troubles ?

Not at all, I'm completely against violence, no one would have died and we'd be in the same position we are now, only SF are in government under British rule. No one had to die..

Hopefully that answers your question
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 09:23:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 09:17:39 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 09:12:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 08:36:50 PM
Give them as many guns as they want... Ban the ammunition, that's not part of their stupid amendments
were you happy that Irish republican's had weapons in the occupied 6 counties during the troubles ?

Not at all, I'm completely against violence, no one would have died and we'd be in the same position we are now, only SF are in government under British rule. No one had to die..

Hopefully that answers your question
was that always your position?
We're you in the minority?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 09:30:31 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 09:23:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 09:17:39 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 09:12:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 08:36:50 PM
Give them as many guns as they want... Ban the ammunition, that's not part of their stupid amendments
were you happy that Irish republican's had weapons in the occupied 6 counties during the troubles ?

Not at all, I'm completely against violence, no one would have died and we'd be in the same position we are now, only SF are in government under British rule. No one had to die..

Hopefully that answers your question
was that always your position?
We're you in the minority?

I grew up on the Falls, during the troubles at its worst, I'd no issues saying what I felt then or now, and any death considering how it's actually panned out was totally avoidable, just like the states no guns no senseless murders
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on June 12, 2022, 12:43:15 PM
So against my better judgement, I engaged a  "Trump supporter/gun owner" yesterday on the issue of background checks. I asked them if they knew that if a minor had a record as a juvenile that record was sealed and wouldn't prevent them from getting a gun the day they turned 18

(I picked this approach because a kid in his sons class had issued an online death threat to a teacher and there was a big hullabaloo down at the school over it with the cops and school psychologist all involved)

All I got was a 10 minute rant about Hunter Biden and how he had lied on his background check and that if the Democrats had their way the only people who would have guns would be Hunter Biden and assorted deviants and that if the Second Amendment was taken away, they would then come for the First Amendment-and actually they already had, but that Mary Poppins of Disinformation had screwed it up on them
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on June 12, 2022, 12:48:24 PM
There is no common ground to be had with a mindset like that.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on June 12, 2022, 01:10:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 12, 2022, 12:48:24 PM
There is no common ground to be had with a mindset like that.

They also claimed that New York had passed some sort of bill on background checks, but that the Democrats had either blocked or defunded it. I've searched and have no clue where they got that from
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Main Street on June 19, 2022, 05:19:02 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 09:30:31 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 09:23:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 09:17:39 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 09:12:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 08:36:50 PM
Give them as many guns as they want... Ban the ammunition, that's not part of their stupid amendments
were you happy that Irish republican's had weapons in the occupied 6 counties during the troubles ?

Not at all, I'm completely against violence, no one would have died and we'd be in the same position we are now, only SF are in government under British rule. No one had to die..

Hopefully that answers your question
was that always your position?
We're you in the minority?

I grew up on the Falls, during the troubles at its worst, I'd no issues saying what I felt then or now, and any death considering how it's actually panned out was totally avoidable, just like the states no guns no senseless murders
Is there any context for armed defiance, eg the French Resistance  WW2?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 19, 2022, 06:40:03 PM
Quote from: Main Street on June 19, 2022, 05:19:02 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 09:30:31 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 09:23:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 09:17:39 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 09:12:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 08:36:50 PM
Give them as many guns as they want... Ban the ammunition, that's not part of their stupid amendments
were you happy that Irish republican's had weapons in the occupied 6 counties during the troubles ?

Not at all, I'm completely against violence, no one would have died and we'd be in the same position we are now, only SF are in government under British rule. No one had to die..

Hopefully that answers your question
was that always your position?
We're you in the minority?

I grew up on the Falls, during the troubles at its worst, I'd no issues saying what I felt then or now, and any death considering how it's actually panned out was totally avoidable, just like the states no guns no senseless murders
Is there any context for armed defiance, eg the French Resistance  WW2?

You're either for all of it or none of it, if you feel the French resistance made a huge impact and the atrocities at Oradour-sur-Glane where justified, I'm not sure. This was the site of a particularly brutal atrocity during World War II. Due to the French resistance holding a SS prisoner I'm not sure it was a good thing, The entire village was destroyed and its inhabitants killed (645)! by German troops on June 10, 1944, this happened exactly two years after a similar fate had befallen the Czechoslovakian village of Lidice.

You are comparing apples and oranges though.

The IRA were never going to win the war, it brought about a stalemate which brought about dialogue and eventually 'peace', a lot of people died needlessly who had absolutely no involvement in the troubles, if you feel it was justified then that's your feelings. I personally think we'd have got to where are now with a lot less dead had we took the political route. SF are in Stormont under a government that is over seen by Westminster. Why did we wait so long? 

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on June 19, 2022, 07:21:10 PM
https://www.wtnh.com/news/connecticut/hartford/east-hartford-police-investigate-double-homicide/amp/

A 15 and 16 year old broke into a house in Hartford CT and didn't come out alive
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Captain Scarlet on June 19, 2022, 08:28:44 PM
Is anyone here still following the Uvalde shooting. Very ropey stuff going on with Police accounts and now I see on Twitter (I know I know!) that they were there before the lads went in.

Other USA-based accounts saying it's likely the Police may have even shot some of the children. It's all such a messed-up place. When you listen to some of their politicians how can they be for real. Ideology or not how can machine guns in the hands of regular people be OK?!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Main Street on June 19, 2022, 08:36:45 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 19, 2022, 06:40:03 PM
Quote from: Main Street on June 19, 2022, 05:19:02 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 09:30:31 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 09:23:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 09:17:39 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 09:12:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 08:36:50 PM
Give them as many guns as they want... Ban the ammunition, that's not part of their stupid amendments
were you happy that Irish republican's had weapons in the occupied 6 counties during the troubles ?

Not at all, I'm completely against violence, no one would have died and we'd be in the same position we are now, only SF are in government under British rule. No one had to die..

Hopefully that answers your question
was that always your position?
We're you in the minority?

I grew up on the Falls, during the troubles at its worst, I'd no issues saying what I felt then or now, and any death considering how it's actually panned out was totally avoidable, just like the states no guns no senseless murders
Is there any context for armed defiance, eg the French Resistance  WW2?

You're either for all of it or none of it, if you feel the French resistance made a huge impact and the atrocities at Oradour-sur-Glane where justified, I'm not sure. This was the site of a particularly brutal atrocity during World War II. Due to the French resistance holding a SS prisoner I'm not sure it was a good thing, The entire village was destroyed and its inhabitants killed (645)! by German troops on June 10, 1944, this happened exactly two years after a similar fate had befallen the Czechoslovakian village of Lidice.

You are comparing apples and oranges though.

The IRA were never going to win the war, it brought about a stalemate which brought about dialogue and eventually 'peace', a lot of people died needlessly who had absolutely no involvement in the troubles, if you feel it was justified then that's your feelings. I personally think we'd have got to where are now with a lot less dead had we took the political route. SF are in Stormont under a government that is over seen by Westminster. Why did we wait so long?
I am not comparing the IRA to French Resistance, I am asking you who espouses pacifism, in your opinion is there any context for violent resistance? Is your pacifism all encompassing? Bear in mind you have the luxury of opining pacifism with hindsight when reviewing the effect of singular events such as Oradour-sur-Glane. The French Resistance spanned 4 or so years in the context of an aggressive invasion and occupation, the merits of which cannot be measured  by just one incident.
It's a classic scenario, measuring the effects of the resistance which lasted 4 years and it's legacy, Instead of suffering the brunt of cruel and sadistic reprisals much of it happened to civilians, should the resistance inclined natives have bitten the bullet, kept their heads down and wait for their country to be rescued, meanwhile with gritted teeth allow their country to be plundered, their people deported to work camps, Jews and any civil disrupters to be sent to death camps?



Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 19, 2022, 09:15:17 PM
Again you're comparing apples and oranges... we were not sent to death camps and any relevance to that is stupid, 6 million Jews were murdered.

Political pressure from the south was non existent so I understand why various campaigns happened, but I'm not an hindsight pacifist, you either are or not, if you feel strapping someone to the wheel of his van and blowing him up is ok then knock yourself out.

I've witnessed enough bombs shootings riots and listened to families losing loved ones to form my own opinion.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on July 04, 2022, 06:47:45 PM
Just the 5 dead and 16 injured at a 4th July parade earlier - https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/7/4/23194354/highland-park-fourth-july-parade-gunfire
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on July 04, 2022, 07:46:08 PM
What's the gun policy on Denmark? Restricted on semi automatic ? Suppose rifles required for hunting, where the guy in the shopping mall pick up the gun?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Captain Obvious on July 05, 2022, 12:50:41 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on July 04, 2022, 07:46:08 PM
What's the gun policy on Denmark? Restricted on semi automatic ? Suppose rifles required for hunting, where the guy in the shopping mall pick up the gun?

semi-automatic weapons and handguns are allowed with special authorization. A genuine reason to possess a firearm, such as for hunting and you must have passed a background check which looks into criminal and mental health records.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rudi on November 23, 2022, 09:58:32 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63724716

At the weekend Colorado Springs, now a store manager in Walmart Chespeake Va, mad ba@tards them yanks. Doesn't look like a great place to live, not helped by polarized opinions on social, every day & political issues. Ease at getting your hands on guns not helping either.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on November 23, 2022, 10:56:59 AM
Quote from: Rudi on November 23, 2022, 09:58:32 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63724716

At the weekend Colorado Springs, now a store manager in Walmart Chespeake Va, mad ba@tards them yanks. Doesn't look like a great place to live, not helped by polarized opinions on social, every day & political issues. Ease at getting your hands on guns not helping either.

How bad was he or his work colleagues to get that? Thoughts and prayers to the families should smooth things over though
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Blowitupref on January 22, 2023, 04:24:47 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2023/0122/1350118-california-shooting/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on January 22, 2023, 08:30:50 PM
Guns are a culture war, same as trans.
Before WW2 there was a culture war involving the Klan. It didn't survive WW2.
People were brought together.
So guns will go when neoliberalism does.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 22, 2023, 11:29:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 22, 2023, 08:30:50 PM
Guns are a culture war, same as trans.
Before WW2 there was a culture war involving the Klan. It didn't survive WW2.
People were brought together.
So guns will go when neoliberalism does.

Where are they going to go?

Who's going to give up their guns?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: thewobbler on January 22, 2023, 11:40:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 22, 2023, 11:29:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 22, 2023, 08:30:50 PM
Guns are a culture war, same as trans.
Before WW2 there was a culture war involving the Klan. It didn't survive WW2.
People were brought together.
So guns will go when neoliberalism does.

Where are they going to go?

Who's going to give up their guns?

It's not impossible but it'll take an era changing event and then it'll take time.

Even that mental f**king basket of a country has to have a tipping point with regards right and wrong. It might be a machine gun in a sports stadium. Or it might be a machine gun in court room. Or it might be a machine gun in a political chamber. But something that completely changes perceptions on a national level, eventually has to happen. Automatic weapons, drugs, depression and a muddled sense of purpose make it inevitable.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Armagh18 on January 22, 2023, 11:41:36 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on January 22, 2023, 11:40:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 22, 2023, 11:29:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 22, 2023, 08:30:50 PM
Guns are a culture war, same as trans.
Before WW2 there was a culture war involving the Klan. It didn't survive WW2.
People were brought together.
So guns will go when neoliberalism does.

Where are they going to go?

Who's going to give up their guns?

It's not impossible but it'll take an era changing event and then it'll take time.

Even that mental f**king basket of a country has to have a tipping point with regards right and wrong. It might be a machine gun in a sports stadium. Or it might be a machine gun in court room. Or it might be a machine gun in a political chamber. But something that completely changes perceptions on a national level, eventually has to happen. Automatic weapons, drugs, depression and a muddled sense of purpose make it inevitable.
If Sandy Hook and the like didn't do it, i dont know what will.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on January 23, 2023, 12:33:54 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on January 22, 2023, 11:40:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 22, 2023, 11:29:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 22, 2023, 08:30:50 PM
Guns are a culture war, same as trans.
Before WW2 there was a culture war involving the Klan. It didn't survive WW2.
People were brought together.
So guns will go when neoliberalism does.

Where are they going to go?

Who's going to give up their guns?

It's not impossible but it'll take an era changing event and then it'll take time.

Even that mental f**king basket of a country has to have a tipping point with regards right and wrong. It might be a machine gun in a sports stadium. Or it might be a machine gun in court room. Or it might be a machine gun in a political chamber. But something that completely changes perceptions on a national level, eventually has to happen. Automatic weapons, drugs, depression and a muddled sense of purpose make it inevitable.



Some people, rightly or wrongly, believe that they have a constitutional right to bear arms

Even if you had 50 Sandy Hooks-these people wouldn't give up their guns

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on January 23, 2023, 03:02:46 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 22, 2023, 11:41:36 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on January 22, 2023, 11:40:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 22, 2023, 11:29:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 22, 2023, 08:30:50 PM
Guns are a culture war, same as trans.
Before WW2 there was a culture war involving the Klan. It didn't survive WW2.
People were brought together.
So guns will go when neoliberalism does.

Where are they going to go?

Who's going to give up their guns?

It's not impossible but it'll take an era changing event and then it'll take time.

Even that mental f**king basket of a country has to have a tipping point with regards right and wrong. It might be a machine gun in a sports stadium. Or it might be a machine gun in court room. Or it might be a machine gun in a political chamber. But something that completely changes perceptions on a national level, eventually has to happen. Automatic weapons, drugs, depression and a muddled sense of purpose make it inevitable.
If Sandy Hook and the like didn't do it, i dont know what will.
The politics have to change. Guns are a symbol of corruption and a corrupt lobby, the NRA. It's a culture war because guns divide people. That is the point. The workingvclass is divided.

There is an airport in New York named after a politician who destroyed Tammany Hall, a previous Democratic version of he corrupt lobby . The people loved him.

https://youtu.be/SaHflVDIzZo

Someone like him will emerge and destroy the NRA. The really sad thing about guns in the US is that people are dying for nothing. It is all pointless.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/10/06/opinion/guns-soul-of-america.amp.html

"The US needs "some sort of synthesis on the larger postindustrial/populism war. Over a century ago industrialisation brought on culture clash between agrarian populist and the genteel Victoria aristocrats.  Theodore Roosevelt transcended the fight by inventing a new kind of American nationalism. Meanwhile the progressives cleaned up elite corruption and nurtured a square deal for those left behind by technological change. Cultural leaders introduced new institutions and community forms like the Boy Scouts and the settlement house that drew from both cultures replaced them.  Today we need another grand synthesis that can move us beyond the current divide, a synthesis that is neither redneck nor hipster but draws from both worlds to create a new social vision progress on guns will be possible when the culture war subsides, not before. "
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on January 23, 2023, 03:29:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 23, 2023, 03:02:46 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 22, 2023, 11:41:36 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on January 22, 2023, 11:40:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on January 22, 2023, 11:29:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 22, 2023, 08:30:50 PM
Guns are a culture war, same as trans.
Before WW2 there was a culture war involving the Klan. It didn't survive WW2.
People were brought together.
So guns will go when neoliberalism does.

Where are they going to go?

Who's going to give up their guns?

It's not impossible but it'll take an era changing event and then it'll take time.

Even that mental f**king basket of a country has to have a tipping point with regards right and wrong. It might be a machine gun in a sports stadium. Or it might be a machine gun in court room. Or it might be a machine gun in a political chamber. But something that completely changes perceptions on a national level, eventually has to happen. Automatic weapons, drugs, depression and a muddled sense of purpose make it inevitable.
If Sandy Hook and the like didn't do it, i dont know what will.
The politics have to change. Guns are a symbol of corruption and a corrupt lobby, the NRA. It's a culture war because guns divide people. That is the point. The workingvclass is divided.

There is an airport in New York named after a politician who destroyed Tammany Hall, a previous Democratic version of he corrupt lobby . The people loved him.

https://youtu.be/SaHflVDIzZo

Someone like him will emerge and destroy the NRA. The really sad thing about guns in the US is that people are dying for nothing. It is all pointless.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/10/06/opinion/guns-soul-of-america.amp.html

"The US needs "some sort of synthesis on the larger postindustrial/populism war. Over a century ago industrialisation brought on culture clash between agrarian populist and the genteel Victoria aristocrats.  Theodore Roosevelt transcended the fight by inventing a new kind of American nationalism. Meanwhile the progressives cleaned up elite corruption and nurtured a square deal for those left behind by technological change. Cultural leaders introduced new institutions and community forms like the Boy Scouts and the settlement house that drew from both cultures replaced them.  Today we need another grand synthesis that can move us beyond the current divide, a synthesis that is neither redneck nor hipster but draws from both worlds to create a new social vision progress on guns will be possible when the culture war subsides, not before. "
I think you are over complicating things the bottom line is people who have guns in their home or carry them for protection or use guns for hunting and don't do anything illegal with them  are never giving them up  and I wouldn't want to try take them either . Think of that what you want but that is the reality .
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on January 23, 2023, 06:45:26 AM
There will still be guns but there won't be the NRA linking guns to the GOP.
Guns don't have to be politicised.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rudi on March 09, 2023, 08:21:51 AM
https://www.rte.ie/news/us/2023/0309/1361134-virginia-us-shooting/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on March 09, 2023, 08:40:07 AM
Quote from: Rudi on March 09, 2023, 08:21:51 AM
https://www.rte.ie/news/us/2023/0309/1361134-virginia-us-shooting/

Imagine the stress of living in an environment / community where guns are everywhere. Your child heading out to school, your partner, family going to a concert, shopping centre... You live in an estate / neighbourhood where neighbours have guns in the house. Neighbours with maybe a penchant for nights out on the drink, dabbling in rec drugs, having a rough time mentally and they have a semi automatic to hand... There's enough in life to increase  the stress levels without that constantly lurking in the background.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on March 09, 2023, 09:07:45 AM
I often think it is crazy that America actually banned Alcohol but never guns.
Watched a debate on TikTok that Jon Stewart had with some House Rep and the guy was doing some mental gymnastics to justify why there should be no checks or registration required with gun ownership (a right in constitution) yet voters should be registered and have their IDs checked (also a right in the constitution)

Another great point he made was if Guns make America safer at what point does that happen? Because it is one of the most unsafe countries in the west. When does it become safer. How many more guns are needed?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on March 09, 2023, 09:18:36 AM
One of the greatest mind tricks of the 21st century was/is the USA convincing people that everyone else in the world is crazy.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: dec on March 27, 2023, 06:34:26 PM
A shooting at a Christian school in Nashville. 7 dead including the teenage female shooter.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 27, 2023, 07:11:01 PM
Quote from: dec on March 27, 2023, 06:34:26 PM
A shooting at a Christian school in Nashville. 7 dead including the teenage female shooter.

If only the teachers had a gun
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on March 27, 2023, 07:16:52 PM
That'll be the narrative, alright. No matter how many guns are in circulation, the gun nuts will still say that problem is "not enough guns."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on March 27, 2023, 07:29:40 PM
Guns are used to divide the American working class so the ultra rich can become even wealthier.
There were SFA gun deaths in schools  in the 1970s
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: dec on March 27, 2023, 07:34:59 PM
They are now saying the shooter was 28 years old
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Capt Pat on March 27, 2023, 11:27:44 PM
Quote from: dec on March 27, 2023, 07:34:59 PM
They are now saying the shooter was 28 years old

.....and a trans woman. So is that really a man?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 12:13:34 AM
Quote from: Capt Pat on March 27, 2023, 11:27:44 PM
Quote from: dec on March 27, 2023, 07:34:59 PM
They are now saying the shooter was 28 years old

.....and a trans woman. So is that really a man?
it was a woman
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on March 28, 2023, 09:53:09 AM
A man dressed as a woman. Call it Trans if you want. Mentally ill for sure.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 28, 2023, 10:48:19 AM
Quote from: Capt Pat on March 27, 2023, 11:27:44 PM
Quote from: dec on March 27, 2023, 07:34:59 PM
They are now saying the shooter was 28 years old

.....and a trans woman. So is that really a man?

The shooter was a trans man.

Born biological female.

And born in a country and state where weapons of mass murder are freely available to whoever the hell wants them for whatever they want to do with them, including murdering little kids.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Taylor on March 28, 2023, 11:13:05 AM
What sex/preferences etc the shooter is hardly matters in this instance though.

The headline should be yet another mass shooting in a school in the US & those poor families - nothing else

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 28, 2023, 11:16:08 AM
Maybe it will make the mass murder of kids stay in the headlines for an extra day.

But probably not.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: jcpen on March 28, 2023, 01:39:31 PM
Quote from: Taylor on March 28, 2023, 11:13:05 AM
What sex/preferences etc the shooter is hardly matters in this instance though.

The headline should be yet another mass shooting in a school in the US & those poor families - nothing else


It should be all be about the mass shooting is right. Some seem to be more offended over the misgendering of the shooter though

https://twitter.com/iamyesyouareno/status/1640580770262573057?s=46&t=yehLzYU6JEaTwS-hVH9NqA
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on March 28, 2023, 01:54:28 PM
Quote from: jcpen on March 28, 2023, 01:39:31 PM
Quote from: Taylor on March 28, 2023, 11:13:05 AM
What sex/preferences etc the shooter is hardly matters in this instance though.

The headline should be yet another mass shooting in a school in the US & those poor families - nothing else


It should be all be about the mass shooting is right. Some seem to be more offended over the misgendering of the shooter though

https://twitter.com/iamyesyouareno/status/1640580770262573057?s=46&t=yehLzYU6JEaTwS-hVH9NqA

LOL-it reminds me of the day my niece was trying to explain what non binary meant to my 84 year old father in law. Let's just say they didn't make any progress
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 02:05:21 PM
Quote from: whitey on March 28, 2023, 01:54:28 PM
Quote from: jcpen on March 28, 2023, 01:39:31 PM
Quote from: Taylor on March 28, 2023, 11:13:05 AM
What sex/preferences etc the shooter is hardly matters in this instance though.

The headline should be yet another mass shooting in a school in the US & those poor families - nothing else


It should be all be about the mass shooting is right. Some seem to be more offended over the misgendering of the shooter though

https://twitter.com/iamyesyouareno/status/1640580770262573057?s=46&t=yehLzYU6JEaTwS-hVH9NqA

LOL-it reminds me of the day my niece was trying to explain what non binary meant to my 84 year old father in law. Let's just say they didn't make any progress

Maybe if he'd turned his hearing aid up he would have heard what she had to say ;)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: RedHand88 on March 28, 2023, 03:14:00 PM
Quote from: jcpen on March 28, 2023, 01:39:31 PM
Quote from: Taylor on March 28, 2023, 11:13:05 AM
What sex/preferences etc the shooter is hardly matters in this instance though.

The headline should be yet another mass shooting in a school in the US & those poor families - nothing else


It should be all be about the mass shooting is right. Some seem to be more offended over the misgendering of the shooter though

https://twitter.com/iamyesyouareno/status/1640580770262573057?s=46&t=yehLzYU6JEaTwS-hVH9NqA

Sigh... Liberals.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 06:28:58 PM
She was seeing a doctor for mental illness, of course , she also had purchased 7 weapons legally
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 06:44:44 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 06:28:58 PM
She was seeing a doctor for mental illness, of course , she also had purchased 7 weapons legally

20% of Americans are seeing psychiatrists, what's your point?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: dec on March 28, 2023, 06:45:20 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 06:28:58 PM
She was seeing a doctor for mental illness, of course , she also had purchased 7 weapons legally

Exercising her god given and second amendment protected right to keep and bear arms.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 06:50:19 PM
Quote from: dec on March 28, 2023, 06:45:20 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 06:28:58 PM
She was seeing a doctor for mental illness, of course , she also had purchased 7 weapons legally

Exercising her god given and second amendment protected right to keep and bear arms.

I wonder does it change the view of a parent who's into guns if their child is killed because of them?

Has there been a school shooting in the UK since Dunblane?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 06:51:38 PM
Quote from: dec on March 28, 2023, 06:45:20 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 06:28:58 PM
She was seeing a doctor for mental illness, of course , she also had purchased 7 weapons legally

Exercising her god given and second amendment protected right to keep and bear arms.
time to stop encouraging mental illness and promoting the trans genocide bs
If I have medical problem that impacts my driving my license is revoked time for universal background checks and ban sale of certain guns to the general public.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 28, 2023, 07:11:44 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 06:51:38 PM
time for universal background checks and ban sale of certain guns to the general public.

Careful gmac.

Sensible statements like that will get you dismissed as a bleeding heart progressive in much of the US.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on March 28, 2023, 07:32:22 PM
Anyone that is not sure if they are a man or a woman should be banned straight off from having an automatic weapon.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on March 28, 2023, 07:40:19 PM
Seeing as it's almost always straight men who do this, it would make more sense to ban anyone who is sure they're one of those.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on March 28, 2023, 07:44:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on March 28, 2023, 07:32:22 PM
Anyone that is not sure if they are a man or a woman should be banned straight off from having an automatic weapon.

agreed
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Tony Baloney on March 28, 2023, 07:50:04 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on March 28, 2023, 07:44:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on March 28, 2023, 07:32:22 PM
Anyone that is not sure if they are a man or a woman should be banned straight off from having an automatic weapon.

agreed
Yep there should be an exceptionally high bar to prove you need to own one (it should be a very small %age of people).
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on March 28, 2023, 08:05:54 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 06:50:19 PM
Quote from: dec on March 28, 2023, 06:45:20 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 06:28:58 PM
She was seeing a doctor for mental illness, of course , she also had purchased 7 weapons legally

Exercising her god given and second amendment protected right to keep and bear arms.

I wonder does it change the view of a parent who's into guns if their child is killed because of them?

Has there been a school shooting in the UK since Dunblane?

No.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 08:18:08 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 28, 2023, 07:40:19 PM
Seeing as it's almost always straight men who do this, it would make more sense to ban anyone who is sure they're one of those.
would they not pretend to be a woman then to get one ? You would be ok with that though correct ?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: RedHand88 on March 28, 2023, 08:25:34 PM
Why the frig does anyone need an automatic weapon??
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 08:34:54 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 28, 2023, 08:25:34 PM
Why the frig does anyone need an automatic weapon??

Loved the political family that had Xmas cards all carrying automatic weapons..

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on March 28, 2023, 08:53:04 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 28, 2023, 08:25:34 PM
Why the frig does anyone need an automatic weapon??
To make up for lack of IQ?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 28, 2023, 08:59:38 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 28, 2023, 07:40:19 PM
Seeing as it's almost always straight men who do this, it would make more sense to ban anyone who is sure they're one of those.

No shit!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 09:21:05 PM
Quote from: J70 on March 28, 2023, 08:59:38 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 28, 2023, 07:40:19 PM
Seeing as it's almost always straight men who do this, it would make more sense to ban anyone who is sure they're one of those.

No shit!
this attitude is why people will never give up their guns
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 09:30:56 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 09:21:05 PM
Quote from: J70 on March 28, 2023, 08:59:38 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 28, 2023, 07:40:19 PM
Seeing as it's almost always straight men who do this, it would make more sense to ban anyone who is sure they're one of those.

No shit!
this attitude is why people will never give up their guns

Great logic
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 09:36:28 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 09:30:56 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 09:21:05 PM
Quote from: J70 on March 28, 2023, 08:59:38 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 28, 2023, 07:40:19 PM
Seeing as it's almost always straight men who do this, it would make more sense to ban anyone who is sure they're one of those.

No shit!
this attitude is why people will never give up their guns

Great logic
take off one group of people only ?
It's more complicated than you can understand
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 09:46:06 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 09:36:28 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 09:30:56 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 09:21:05 PM
Quote from: J70 on March 28, 2023, 08:59:38 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 28, 2023, 07:40:19 PM
Seeing as it's almost always straight men who do this, it would make more sense to ban anyone who is sure they're one of those.

No shit!
this attitude is why people will never give up their guns

Great logic
take off one group of people only ?
It's more complicated than you can understand

When I get a sensible answer why someone needs an automatic gun or multiple guns I'll try and understand
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on March 28, 2023, 09:58:01 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 09:46:06 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 09:36:28 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 09:30:56 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 09:21:05 PM
Quote from: J70 on March 28, 2023, 08:59:38 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 28, 2023, 07:40:19 PM
Seeing as it's almost always straight men who do this, it would make more sense to ban anyone who is sure they're one of those.

No shit!
this attitude is why people will never give up their guns

Great logic
take off one group of people only ?
It's more complicated than you can understand

When I get a sensible answer why someone needs an automatic gun or multiple guns I'll try and understand

No one needs automatic weapons-they we're actually "outlawed" for about 10 years during the 90s

Multiple guns-depending on where you live and work and how many cars you have a reasonable case could be made for someone owning multiple guns.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 10:02:24 PM
Multiple cars, dogs, cats, children. I See your logic ;D
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on March 28, 2023, 10:40:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 10:02:24 PM
Multiple cars, dogs, cats, children. I See your logic ;D

You obviously don't live here

Very common for people to have multiple houses, cars, jobs, boats, businesses
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 10:43:24 PM
Quote from: whitey on March 28, 2023, 10:40:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 10:02:24 PM
Multiple cars, dogs, cats, children. I See your logic ;D

You obviously don't live here

Very common for people to have multiple houses, cars, jobs, boats, businesses

Equating them to automatic weapons is just daft though.

Wondering if your child will survive school must be a strange one
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 28, 2023, 10:43:47 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 09:36:28 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 09:30:56 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 28, 2023, 09:21:05 PM
Quote from: J70 on March 28, 2023, 08:59:38 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 28, 2023, 07:40:19 PM
Seeing as it's almost always straight men who do this, it would make more sense to ban anyone who is sure they're one of those.

No shit!
this attitude is why people will never give up their guns

Great logic
take off one group of people only ?
It's more complicated than you can understand

If it's more complicated then banning one group, why respond to my post then?  The only reason straight men were brought up was someone pointing out the obvious to armaghniac who stated that people with gender identity issues should be banned from owning them.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 28, 2023, 10:45:29 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 10:43:24 PM
Quote from: whitey on March 28, 2023, 10:40:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 10:02:24 PM
Multiple cars, dogs, cats, children. I See your logic ;D

You obviously don't live here

Very common for people to have multiple houses, cars, jobs, boats, businesses

Equating them to automatic weapons is just daft though.

Wondering if your child will survive school must be a strange one

My young kids have been through multiple active shooter drills.

The price of "freedom" apparently.

As are the dead primary school aged kids of Sandy Hook, Uvalde and now Nashville.

And countless older school and university kids.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 10:48:51 PM
It's the normalising those drills for kids that is bizarre, as I posted earlier no school shootings in the uk since Dunblane..

Americans are a strange bunch
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 28, 2023, 10:54:31 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 10:48:51 PM
It's the normalising those drills for kids that is bizarre, as I posted earlier no school shootings in the uk since Dunblane..

Americans are a strange bunch

The gun nuts have been utterly brainwashed. Gun ownership (of any type of weapon they desire) is a part of the culture war that has been surrendered as only one side has any significant number of motivated voters.

And they couldn't give a single f**k about someone else's dead child.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on March 28, 2023, 11:08:33 PM
3 of them girls are only 9, that's horrendous. starting to think America got bigger problems that guns. Place seems to have a higher % of nuts than other countries. Kinda hard given some of the clientell running round Northern Ireland.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on March 29, 2023, 12:22:43 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 10:43:24 PM
Quote from: whitey on March 28, 2023, 10:40:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 10:02:24 PM
Multiple cars, dogs, cats, children. I See your logic ;D

You obviously don't live here

Very common for people to have multiple houses, cars, jobs, boats, businesses

Equating them to automatic weapons is just daft though.

Wondering if your child will survive school must be a strange one

I said no one needed automatic weapons and I'm not against banning them


There are legit reasons people would have more than one hand gun
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on March 29, 2023, 07:22:18 AM
The argument that more good people need guns to protect themselves from bad people with guns. At what point does America become safe and have enough guns?  When every man, woman and child is carrying one?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 29, 2023, 07:36:59 AM
Quote from: whitey on March 29, 2023, 12:22:43 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 10:43:24 PM
Quote from: whitey on March 28, 2023, 10:40:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 10:02:24 PM
Multiple cars, dogs, cats, children. I See your logic ;D

You obviously don't live here

Very common for people to have multiple houses, cars, jobs, boats, businesses

Equating them to automatic weapons is just daft though.

Wondering if your child will survive school must be a strange one

I said no one needed automatic weapons and I'm not against banning them


There are legit reasons people would have more than one hand gun

Do the majority of people living in America live in built up areas/city's? So hunting wouldn't be a big thing? Unless you like hunting 9 year old school kids I suppose then you probably do need up to 7 guns
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on March 29, 2023, 07:42:16 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on March 28, 2023, 11:08:33 PM
3 of them girls are only 9, that's horrendous. starting to think America got bigger problems that guns. Place seems to have a higher % of nuts than other countries. Kinda hard given some of the clientell running round Northern Ireland.

They have mentally ill people the world over. Regular mass shootings are a uniquely American problem.

The problem is the guns.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on March 29, 2023, 07:43:02 AM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on March 29, 2023, 07:22:18 AM
The argument that more good people need guns to protect themselves from bad people with guns. At what point does America become safe and have enough guns?  When every man, woman and child is carrying one?

If guns kept people safer we'd be allowed to carry them on commercial flights with no restrictions.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on March 29, 2023, 07:44:15 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 29, 2023, 07:36:59 AM
Do the majority of people living in America live in built up areas/city's? So hunting wouldn't be a big thing? Unless you like hunting 9 year old school kids I suppose then you probably do need up to 7 guns

83% of people in America live in urban areas.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: FL/MAYO on March 29, 2023, 11:00:44 AM
The man who did the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando was on a do not fly list yet he was able to legally purchase firearms. Too dangerous to fly yet safe enough to purchase weapons, it's crazy 😧.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on March 29, 2023, 03:17:42 PM
The last 3 years have done with any chance of gun control I'm afraid.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 29, 2023, 03:24:15 PM
Sandy Hook killed gun control once and for all.

When the c***ts were able to brazen their way through that unspeakable atrocity, they could see off anything.

It's almost forgotten today, but that f**ker in Las Vegas in 2017 shot more than 500 people.

Think about that!

And the only response was the feeble bump stock ban, and even that is currently being challenged through the courts by the gun lunatics and will probably end up in front of the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on March 31, 2023, 03:16:57 PM
Yesterdays news will see a spike in gun purchases I'm sure , maybe that's what this administration wants though.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on March 31, 2023, 03:57:08 PM
Quote from: Gmac on March 31, 2023, 03:16:57 PM
Yesterdays news will see a spike in gun purchases I'm sure , maybe that's what this administration wants though.

Yes, THEY'RE the ones calling for violence and protest.

Not the loudmouth wannabe tough guy and his minions. ::)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 05:49:42 PM
Quote from: J70 on March 28, 2023, 10:54:31 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 10:48:51 PM
It's the normalising those drills for kids that is bizarre, as I posted earlier no school shootings in the uk since Dunblane..

Americans are a strange bunch

The gun nuts have been utterly brainwashed. Gun ownership (of any type of weapon they desire) is a part of the culture war that has been surrendered as only one side has any significant number of motivated voters.

And they couldn't give a single f**k about someone else's dead child.

How many mass shooters in america were actually NRA members? In a large consumer society like the US people can get their hands on weapons too freely especially automatic weapons. Sadly America is a media laden society especially since 2002 so these murderous scumbags want to be infamous/famous because they are losers in reality. The decay of society in America is alarming, just look at Los Angeles & California in general. Mental Illness is rife yet these sick people are thrown out in the street. No quick fix to the mass shooting problem for sure when you have psychopaths out there who are not vetted.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 05:54:59 PM
So, are they looking to be famous? Are they sick? Or psychotic? And before 2002 the mass shootings were not happening?

Do you think there would be less mass shootings if there was no guns?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 06:12:00 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 05:54:59 PM
So, are they looking to be famous? Are they sick? Or psychotic? And before 2002 the mass shootings were not happening?

Do you think there would be less mass shootings if there was no guns?

Some are after infamy, some are sick, some are psychotic, some are all 3. 1979 I think was the first mass shooting in San Diego by a school girl who happened to be psychotic. Yes there would be less mass shootings without guns, that is a given but as I said in a large consumer society there is also a large black market so guns will always be available to anyone who wants them. Mass shooters are basically serial killers who kill all at once, the majority of serial killers do not use guns to kill. America Media is all celebrity & violence. There is a military Industrial Complex that profits on violence, as I said American Society has broken down communally & mentally. But at the end of the day it is the person who commits these murderous acts are the problem and that is hard to curtail.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 06:45:26 PM
You're minimum 13 years behind this famous one
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting

If the person hadn't a gun would they be happening? No shootings in schools since Dunblane in the Uk? Are there less nut jobs in the uk or less guns? I've asked you this question already
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 06:55:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 06:45:26 PM
You're minimum 13 years behind this famous one
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting

If the person hadn't a gun would they be happening? No shootings in schools since Dunblane in the Uk? Are there less nut jobs in the uk or less guns? I've asked you this question already

I said I think it was 1979, either way so what. of course no gun no shooting.. but people will get their hands on weapons regardless because of the large consumer society. I already told you that there is a problem in American Society so yes there will be more killings and also to demographics. Yes there are more nutjobs in America than the Uk just look at crime statistics per capita.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 01, 2023, 07:14:27 PM
Quote from: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 05:49:42 PM
Quote from: J70 on March 28, 2023, 10:54:31 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 28, 2023, 10:48:51 PM
It's the normalising those drills for kids that is bizarre, as I posted earlier no school shootings in the uk since Dunblane..

Americans are a strange bunch

The gun nuts have been utterly brainwashed. Gun ownership (of any type of weapon they desire) is a part of the culture war that has been surrendered as only one side has any significant number of motivated voters.

And they couldn't give a single f**k about someone else's dead child.

How many mass shooters in america were actually NRA members? In a large consumer society like the US people can get their hands on weapons too freely especially automatic weapons. Sadly America is a media laden society especially since 2002 so these murderous scumbags want to be infamous/famous because they are losers in reality. The decay of society in America is alarming, just look at Los Angeles & California in general. Mental Illness is rife yet these sick people are thrown out in the street. No quick fix to the mass shooting problem for sure when you have psychopaths out there who are not vetted.

Not sure what the NRA membership among mass shooters has to do with anything.

The issue with the gun nuts is that they are facilitating the easy availability of high capacity weapons to anyone who wants them, NRA member of not, and are refusing point blank to place even modest limits on who can get their hands on them, instead targeting the existing ridiculously lenient impediments.

Mental illness is of course a huge issue. Personally, I blame both sides of the political spectrum on this. The right doesn't want to pay to help those with mental challenges, despite all their attempts to use the issue to distract from the ludicrous availability of weapons. Both sides need to figure out the personal civil rights end of things to make it easier to get and keep people with these issues in treatment and to limit their access to legal weapons.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 07:40:57 PM
Been through numerous Presidents & governments since this madness has been around yet all you get are platitudes etc. Of course limit the access to these high-powered weapons and stricter background checks but most of the mass shooters had clean backgrounds and from good families so it is hard to vet these insane people. The people who are passionate about their guns ie NRA members are not mass shooters. While there is money to be made on taxes with these weapons the US powers that be will do nothing. Anyways as I said when you have a massive black market economy these weapons are readily available so it's hard to fix this problem. You had it with the Prohibation Era when a black economy flourished which made the Kennedys rich to this day, the same will happen with guns. We have had the War on Alcohol, War on Drugs and they have been dismal failures, the War on Terror as well.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on April 01, 2023, 07:50:08 PM
Quote from: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 07:40:57 PM
Been through numerous Presidents & governments since this madness has been around yet all you get are platitudes etc. Of course limit the access to these high-powered weapons and stricter background checks but most of the mass shooters had clean backgrounds and from good families so it is hard to vet these insane people. The people who are passionate about their guns ie NRA members are not mass shooters. While there is money to be made on taxes with these weapons the US powers that be will do nothing. Anyways as I said when you have a massive black market economy these weapons are readily available so it's hard to fix this problem. You had it with the Prohibation Era when a black economy flourished which made the Kennedys rich to this day, the same will happen with guns. We have had the War on Alcohol, War on Drugs and they have been dismal failures, the War on Terror as well.
war on homelessness in sf has resulted in a 90% increase in homelessness but lots of fake charities and politicians have made money from it .
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 01, 2023, 07:50:42 PM
Restrict legal availability, devote adequate law enforcement resources to the black market, and address mental illness. No reason that can't be done if the political will exists.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 08:09:59 PM
The deflection is shocking... nut jobs stop people having guns and move on.

Christians backing a person who's paying off mistresses is baffling
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on April 01, 2023, 08:36:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 08:09:59 PM
The deflection is shocking... nut jobs stop people having guns and move on.

Christians backing a person who's paying off mistresses is baffling
hows the government in Northern Ireland doing ?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 08:40:12 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 01, 2023, 08:36:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 08:09:59 PM
The deflection is shocking... nut jobs stop people having guns and move on.

Christians backing a person who's paying off mistresses is baffling
hows the government in Northern Ireland doing ?

Sure what do you care? As long as Trump is allowed to tap pussy all is good in the world
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on April 01, 2023, 08:44:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 08:40:12 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 01, 2023, 08:36:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 08:09:59 PM
The deflection is shocking... nut jobs stop people having guns and move on.

Christians backing a person who's paying off mistresses is baffling
hows the government in Northern Ireland doing ?

Sure what do you care? As long as Trump is allowed to tap pussy all is good in the world
maybe you should go talk to your local politician about the situation  ?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 08:50:22 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 01, 2023, 08:44:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 08:40:12 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 01, 2023, 08:36:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 08:09:59 PM
The deflection is shocking... nut jobs stop people having guns and move on.

Christians backing a person who's paying off mistresses is baffling
hows the government in Northern Ireland doing ?

Sure what do you care? As long as Trump is allowed to tap pussy all is good in the world
maybe you should go talk to your local politician about the situation  ?

About Trump paying off mistresses? Not sure they'd be interested but I'll mention it to the my local councillor.

You're wild for defending (deflecting) the indefensible, whatever makes you sleep at night I suppose works

I hope he goes back in again tbh, you definitely deserve it
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on April 01, 2023, 08:51:44 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 08:50:22 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 01, 2023, 08:44:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 08:40:12 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 01, 2023, 08:36:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 08:09:59 PM
The deflection is shocking... nut jobs stop people having guns and move on.

Christians backing a person who's paying off mistresses is baffling
hows the government in Northern Ireland doing ?

Sure what do you care? As long as Trump is allowed to tap pussy all is good in the world
maybe you should go talk to your local politician about the situation  ?

About Trump paying off mistresses? Not sure they'd be interested but I'll mention it to the my local councillor.

You're wild for defending (deflecting) the indefensible, whatever makes you sleep at night I suppose works

I hope he goes back in again tbh, you definitely deserve it
thank you
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 09:02:33 PM
Quote from: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 06:55:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 06:45:26 PM
You're minimum 13 years behind this famous one
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting

If the person hadn't a gun would they be happening? No shootings in schools since Dunblane in the Uk? Are there less nut jobs in the uk or less guns? I've asked you this question already

I said I think it was 1979, either way so what. of course no gun no shooting.. but people will get their hands on weapons regardless because of the large consumer society. I already told you that there is a problem in American Society so yes there will be more killings and also to demographics. Yes there are more nutjobs in America than the Uk just look at crime statistics per capita.

https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states

1979  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Captain Obvious on April 01, 2023, 10:19:30 PM
Quote from: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 06:55:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 06:45:26 PM
You're minimum 13 years behind this famous one
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting

If the person hadn't a gun would they be happening? No shootings in schools since Dunblane in the Uk? Are there less nut jobs in the uk or less guns? I've asked you this question already

I said I think it was 1979, either way so what. of course no gun no shooting.. but people will get their hands on weapons regardless because of the large consumer society. I already told you that there is a problem in American Society so yes there will be more killings and also to demographics. Yes there are more nutjobs in America than the Uk just look at crime statistics per capita.

More nutjobs in America than anywhere else and most of them voted for Trump and think he did a good job as president.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 10:50:05 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on April 01, 2023, 10:19:30 PM
Quote from: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 06:55:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 06:45:26 PM
You're minimum 13 years behind this famous one
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting

If the person hadn't a gun would they be happening? No shootings in schools since Dunblane in the Uk? Are there less nut jobs in the uk or less guns? I've asked you this question already

I said I think it was 1979, either way so what. of course no gun no shooting.. but people will get their hands on weapons regardless because of the large consumer society. I already told you that there is a problem in American Society so yes there will be more killings and also to demographics. Yes there are more nutjobs in America than the Uk just look at crime statistics per capita.

More nutjobs in America than anywhere else and most of them voted for Trump and think he did a good job as president.

So high employment across the board, Inflation kept in check, no starting wars, wanting to disengage from the Middle East, getting rid of the federal Tax Mandate that was hurting families,tough on illegal immigration, 401K's at record levels,  I guess he did a bad job then!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 10:55:30 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 01, 2023, 07:50:42 PM
Restrict legal availability, devote adequate law enforcement resources to the black market, and address mental illness. No reason that can't be done if the political will exists.

Would be a practical measure but sadly when the powers that be are making money & political capital out of the problem then nothing will be done.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 10:58:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 09:02:33 PM
Quote from: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 06:55:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 06:45:26 PM
You're minimum 13 years behind this famous one
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting

If the person hadn't a gun would they be happening? No shootings in schools since Dunblane in the Uk? Are there less nut jobs in the uk or less guns? I've asked you this question already

I said I think it was 1979, either way so what. of course no gun no shooting.. but people will get their hands on weapons regardless because of the large consumer society. I already told you that there is a problem in American Society so yes there will be more killings and also to demographics. Yes there are more nutjobs in America than the Uk just look at crime statistics per capita.

https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states

1979  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Again they get personal when they get ignorant
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Captain Obvious on April 01, 2023, 11:34:45 PM
Quote from: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 10:50:05 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on April 01, 2023, 10:19:30 PM
Quote from: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 06:55:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 01, 2023, 06:45:26 PM
You're minimum 13 years behind this famous one
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting

If the person hadn't a gun would they be happening? No shootings in schools since Dunblane in the Uk? Are there less nut jobs in the uk or less guns? I've asked you this question already

I said I think it was 1979, either way so what. of course no gun no shooting.. but people will get their hands on weapons regardless because of the large consumer society. I already told you that there is a problem in American Society so yes there will be more killings and also to demographics. Yes there are more nutjobs in America than the Uk just look at crime statistics per capita.

More nutjobs in America than anywhere else and most of them voted for Trump and think he did a good job as president.

So high employment across the board, Inflation kept in check, no starting wars, wanting to disengage from the Middle East, getting rid of the federal Tax Mandate that was hurting families,tough on illegal immigration, 401K's at record levels,  I guess he did a bad job then!!

Deluded much? and you call Milltown Row2 ignorant ;D
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Piskin on April 01, 2023, 11:41:27 PM
Those are the facts Captain...also I am neither Democrat or Republican, I am a registered Independant, yes Trump had faults and came across crass but his record speaks for itself.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on April 01, 2023, 11:42:54 PM
Who's alt account is this?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: PMG1 on April 02, 2023, 12:28:27 AM
I am staying in South Beach Miami for a few days, great place, has really changed my mind of USA after a shit holiday in NYC. But can you tell me is weed legal here? I am not joking when I say you literally smell it in the air all the time
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Piskin on April 02, 2023, 12:40:05 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on April 02, 2023, 12:28:27 AM
I am staying in South Beach Miami for a few days, great place, has really changed my mind of USA after a shit holiday in NYC. But can you tell me is weed legal here? I am not joking when I say you literally smell it in the air all the time
[/quot

It's a grey area now concerning weed usage, legal in some states but if caught driving while buzzed you will get charged, considering that weed stays in somebodys system for at least 3 days it's crazy. Only a matter of time before it will be fully legal which is a good idea as it creates revenue and does away with a lot of the crime around it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on April 02, 2023, 01:16:19 AM
Quote from: Piskin on April 02, 2023, 12:40:05 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on April 02, 2023, 12:28:27 AM
I am staying in South Beach Miami for a few days, great place, has really changed my mind of USA after a shit holiday in NYC. But can you tell me is weed legal here? I am not joking when I say you literally smell it in the air all the time
[/quot

It's a grey area now concerning weed usage, legal in some states but if caught driving while buzzed you will get charged, considering that weed stays in somebodys system for at least 3 days it's crazy. Only a matter of time before it will be fully legal which is a good idea as it creates revenue and does away with a lot of the crime around it.

Well they normally don't have random checkpoints, so to get nabbed for marijuana you'd have to either get into an accident or do something else to draw their attention to you....such as missing headlight
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on April 02, 2023, 01:18:14 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on April 02, 2023, 12:28:27 AM
I am staying in South Beach Miami for a few days, great place, has really changed my mind of USA after a shit holiday in NYC. But can you tell me is weed legal here? I am not joking when I say you literally smell it in the air all the time

Legal in NYC. Did you not smell it everywhere there?

What was shit about your hols in NY, btw?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Capt Pat on April 02, 2023, 11:45:10 PM
Quote from: PMG1 on April 02, 2023, 12:28:27 AM
I am staying in South Beach Miami for a few days, great place, has really changed my mind of USA after a shit holiday in NYC. But can you tell me is weed legal here? I am not joking when I say you literally smell it in the air all the time

Legal for medical use only in Florida.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: PMG1 on April 03, 2023, 05:32:24 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on April 02, 2023, 01:18:14 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on April 02, 2023, 12:28:27 AM
I am staying in South Beach Miami for a few days, great place, has really changed my mind of USA after a shit holiday in NYC. But can you tell me is weed legal here? I am not joking when I say you literally smell it in the air all the time

Legal in NYC. Did you not smell it everywhere there?

What was shit about your hols in NY, btw?
Was staying downtown Manhattan, full of people coked out of their head, rubbish in the streets, no atmosphere in the pubs, non stop traffic noise, people tramping over the top of each other - that and the fact that I had my wife and daughter with me who basically dragged me round shops from 10 in the morn till 8 at night then were to tired to do anything at night 😂
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on April 04, 2023, 03:10:13 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on April 03, 2023, 05:32:24 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on April 02, 2023, 01:18:14 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on April 02, 2023, 12:28:27 AM
I am staying in South Beach Miami for a few days, great place, has really changed my mind of USA after a shit holiday in NYC. But can you tell me is weed legal here? I am not joking when I say you literally smell it in the air all the time

Legal in NYC. Did you not smell it everywhere there?

What was shit about your hols in NY, btw?
Was staying downtown Manhattan, full of people coked out of their head, rubbish in the streets, no atmosphere in the pubs, non stop traffic noise, people tramping over the top of each other - that and the fact that I had my wife and daughter with me who basically dragged me round shops from 10 in the morn till 8 at night then were to tired to do anything at night 😂

I think we're homing in on the real problem here!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on April 04, 2023, 03:21:24 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on April 03, 2023, 05:32:24 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on April 02, 2023, 01:18:14 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on April 02, 2023, 12:28:27 AM
I am staying in South Beach Miami for a few days, great place, has really changed my mind of USA after a shit holiday in NYC. But can you tell me is weed legal here? I am not joking when I say you literally smell it in the air all the time

Legal in NYC. Did you not smell it everywhere there?

What was shit about your hols in NY, btw?
Was staying downtown Manhattan, full of people coked out of their head, rubbish in the streets, no atmosphere in the pubs, non stop traffic noise, people tramping over the top of each other - that and the fact that I had my wife and daughter with me who basically dragged me round shops from 10 in the morn till 8 at night then were to tired to do anything at night 😂
most US cities are hell holes
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Piskin on April 13, 2023, 12:22:17 AM
Quote from: Gmac on April 04, 2023, 03:21:24 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on April 03, 2023, 05:32:24 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on April 02, 2023, 01:18:14 AM
Quote from: PMG1 on April 02, 2023, 12:28:27 AM
I am staying in South Beach Miami for a few days, great place, has really changed my mind of USA after a shit holiday in NYC. But can you tell me is weed legal here? I am not joking when I say you literally smell it in the air all the time

Legal in NYC. Did you not smell it everywhere there?

What was shit about your hols in NY, btw?
Was staying downtown Manhattan, full of people coked out of their head, rubbish in the streets, no atmosphere in the pubs, non stop traffic noise, people tramping over the top of each other - that and the fact that I had my wife and daughter with me who basically dragged me round shops from 10 in the morn till 8 at night then were to tired to do anything at night 😂
most US cities are hell holes

Not all...some are shitloles. Los Angeles is both
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on April 17, 2023, 09:14:55 AM
Freedom

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65293737 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65293737)

This shooting takes the US to a grim milestone of more than 160 mass shootings - in which four or more people are shot - so far this year
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 17, 2023, 10:24:11 AM
And little word about it. Or the one a few days back where the bank employee killed five colleagues in Kentucky. In that case, one of the victims was close to some major politicians, of both sides.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on April 17, 2023, 12:56:39 PM
15 people shot dead in Chicago since Friday

Flat out riots all weekend involving hundreds of teenagers in the tourist area

Incoming Mayor asked people not to demonize the rioters
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on April 17, 2023, 01:11:35 PM
Quote from: whitey on April 17, 2023, 12:56:39 PM
15 people shot dead in Chicago since Friday

Flat out riots all weekend involving hundreds of teenagers in the tourist area

Incoming Mayor asked people not to demonize the rioters

If there was no guns how many would have been shot dead? Better rioting in the tourist areas, might get something done?

Would you have demonized the rioters in Derry back in the day?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 17, 2023, 01:26:47 PM
What do you do if hundreds or even thousands of teenagers decide to show up at a location and, inevitably, trouble ensues? Honest question (and I'm not talking about arresting those who end up engaged in violence - that's obviously required).

Mock the mayor-elect if you want (and he's an easy target in a situation like this), but does he not have a point in the larger scheme about trying to address engaging them and providing adult supervision?

The likes of Trump would be screaming about "thugs" and needing a heavy police response or even the military, but would that be any more helpful?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on April 17, 2023, 03:42:47 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 17, 2023, 01:26:47 PM
What do you do if hundreds or even thousands of teenagers decide to show up at a location and, inevitably, trouble ensues? Honest question (and I'm not talking about arresting those who end up engaged in violence - that's obviously required).

Mock the mayor-elect if you want (and he's an easy target in a situation like this), but does he not have a point in the larger scheme about trying to address engaging them and providing adult supervision?

The likes of Trump would be screaming about "thugs" and needing a heavy police response or even the military, but would that be any more helpful?
the people of Chicago vote these politicians in so they deserve what they get , anyone who can get out of there will and they will be better off
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on April 17, 2023, 07:01:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 17, 2023, 01:11:35 PM
Quote from: whitey on April 17, 2023, 12:56:39 PM
15 people shot dead in Chicago since Friday

Flat out riots all weekend involving hundreds of teenagers in the tourist area

Incoming Mayor asked people not to demonize the rioters

If there was no guns how many would have been shot dead? Better rioting in the tourist areas, might get something done?

Would you have demonized the rioters in Derry back in the day?

If they behaved like the teenagers did in Chicago on Saturday night, then yes-100%
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on April 17, 2023, 07:48:28 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 17, 2023, 01:26:47 PM
What do you do if hundreds or even thousands of teenagers decide to show up at a location and, inevitably, trouble ensues? Honest question (and I'm not talking about arresting those who end up engaged in violence - that's obviously required).

Mock the mayor-elect if you want (and he's an easy target in a situation like this), but does he not have a point in the larger scheme about trying to address engaging them and providing adult supervision?

The likes of Trump would be screaming about "thugs" and needing a heavy police response or even the military, but would that be any more helpful?

I don't know-how would you deal with a complete break down in societal norms

Ever see this video?

https://twitter.com/bigdave2022/status/1575606411177775105?s=20

How exactly would you "supervise" people like this?

Maybe they could hire some of the docents they fired from the Art Institute (because they were white) to act as chaperons

https://mobile.twitter.com/CPD1617Scanner/status/1647434720265871362
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 17, 2023, 08:00:21 PM
Quote from: whitey on April 17, 2023, 07:48:28 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 17, 2023, 01:26:47 PM
What do you do if hundreds or even thousands of teenagers decide to show up at a location and, inevitably, trouble ensues? Honest question (and I'm not talking about arresting those who end up engaged in violence - that's obviously required).

Mock the mayor-elect if you want (and he's an easy target in a situation like this), but does he not have a point in the larger scheme about trying to address engaging them and providing adult supervision?

The likes of Trump would be screaming about "thugs" and needing a heavy police response or even the military, but would that be any more helpful?

I don't know-how would you deal with a complete break down in societal norms

Ever see this video?

https://twitter.com/bigdave2022/status/1575606411177775105?s=20

How exactly would you "supervise" people like this?

Maybe they could hire some of the docents they fired from the Art Institute (because they were white) to act as chaperons

https://mobile.twitter.com/CPD1617Scanner/status/1647434720265871362

So prickly sarcasm and nothing else to offer?

You reckon all of the hundreds of kids in question are packing guns like those kids were?

That large groups of teenagers, like just about any other large gathering, can respond to and follow the worst elements among them, even though they themselves might not be that way inclined?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on April 17, 2023, 08:09:12 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 17, 2023, 08:00:21 PM
Quote from: whitey on April 17, 2023, 07:48:28 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 17, 2023, 01:26:47 PM
What do you do if hundreds or even thousands of teenagers decide to show up at a location and, inevitably, trouble ensues? Honest question (and I'm not talking about arresting those who end up engaged in violence - that's obviously required).

Mock the mayor-elect if you want (and he's an easy target in a situation like this), but does he not have a point in the larger scheme about trying to address engaging them and providing adult supervision?

The likes of Trump would be screaming about "thugs" and needing a heavy police response or even the military, but would that be any more helpful?

I don't know-how would you deal with a complete break down in societal norms

Ever see this video?

https://twitter.com/bigdave2022/status/1575606411177775105?s=20

How exactly would you "supervise" people like this?

Maybe they could hire some of the docents they fired from the Art Institute (because they were white) to act as chaperons

https://mobile.twitter.com/CPD1617Scanner/status/1647434720265871362

So prickly sarcasm and nothing else to offer?

You reckon all of the hundreds of kids in question are packing guns like those kids were?

That large groups of teenagers, like just about any other large gathering, can respond to and follow the worst elements among them, even though they themselves might not be that way inclined?

I'm a realist

How exactly do you "supervise" a mob?

  Because that's what they were and behaved like-a mob
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 17, 2023, 08:13:22 PM
But he (the mayor elect) wasn't talking about supervising a mob. His point was that these kids shouldn't have been on the street in the first place if they were properly engaged and had adult supervision.

Edit: And yeah, I did ask how you do handle the mob, but that's a separate question and probably futile.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on April 17, 2023, 08:43:40 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 17, 2023, 08:13:22 PM
But he (the mayor elect) wasn't talking about supervising a mob. His point was that these kids shouldn't have been on the street in the first place if they were properly engaged and had adult supervision.

Edit: And yeah, I did ask how you do handle the mob, but that's a separate question and probably futile.

So now you're crossing a line that absolutely cannot cross with progressives

Criticizing African American parents for their parenting skills
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on April 18, 2023, 01:33:12 AM
Quote from: J70 on April 18, 2023, 01:24:53 AM
Quote from: whitey on April 17, 2023, 08:43:40 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 17, 2023, 08:13:22 PM
But he (the mayor elect) wasn't talking about supervising a mob. His point was that these kids shouldn't have been on the street in the first place if they were properly engaged and had adult supervision.

Edit: And yeah, I did ask how you do handle the mob, but that's a separate question and probably futile.

So now you're crossing a line that absolutely cannot cross with progressives

Criticizing African American parents for their parenting skills

Don't you mean some specific African American parents, assuming these kids were predominantly black?

Like kids from disadvantaged backgrounds the world over, race itself has little to do with it.

I'm not a progressive.

I never said you were a progressive

I said Progressives loose the plot when people criticize African American Parenting and 90% of the people I saw in the video were AA

I'm confused- what does being disadvantaged  have to do with them choosing to travel several miles from their  own neighborhood into downtown Chicago to participate in a riot?

W
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 18, 2023, 06:11:01 AM
You're confused? Really?

So it's middle class and rich kids and not kids who come from single parent or single grandparent-led homes where the adult is working several jobs or otherwise struggling that leads to kids being unsupervised and out on the streets? The problem really IS race itself and not social conditions?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 18, 2023, 07:00:41 AM
 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65307556.amp (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65307556.amp)

Shoot now, ask questions later.

WTF is wrong with these f**k wits?

Thankfully the young black kid in Kansas City, Missouri is probably going to be ok and the old bastard who shot him through the door is being charged.

Not so fortunate for the young girl in upstate NY though. Guy has been charged with murder.

Myself and my family turned into the wrong driveway of a house in upstate NY last year when looking for our Air BnB in a poorly lit area of the Catskills (Google Maps can be very unreliable in certain areas). Thank f**k those people didn't come out guns blazing.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on April 18, 2023, 07:47:25 AM
Quote from: J70 on April 18, 2023, 07:00:41 AM
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65307556.amp (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65307556.amp)

Shoot now, ask questions later.

WTF is wrong with these f**k wits?

Thankfully the young black kid in Kansas City, Missouri is probably going to be ok and the old bastard who shot him through the door is being charged.

Not so fortunate for the young girl in upstate NY though. Guy has been charged with murder.

Myself and my family turned into the wrong driveway of a house in upstate NY last year when looking for our Air BnB in a poorly lit area of the Catskills (Google Maps can be very unreliable in certain areas). Thank f**k those people didn't come out guns blazing.

They wouldn't have cause your Donegal white, can't get any whiter than that
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on April 18, 2023, 07:51:01 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 18, 2023, 07:47:25 AM
Quote from: J70 on April 18, 2023, 07:00:41 AM
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65307556.amp (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65307556.amp)

Shoot now, ask questions later.

WTF is wrong with these f**k wits?

Thankfully the young black kid in Kansas City, Missouri is probably going to be ok and the old bastard who shot him through the door is being charged.

Not so fortunate for the young girl in upstate NY though. Guy has been charged with murder.

Myself and my family turned into the wrong driveway of a house in upstate NY last year when looking for our Air BnB in a poorly lit area of the Catskills (Google Maps can be very unreliable in certain areas). Thank f**k those people didn't come out guns blazing.

They wouldn't have cause your Donegal white, can't get any whiter than that

This is the girl that was killed:
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/800/cpsprodpb/17D17/production/_129395579_mediaitem129395578.jpg)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on April 18, 2023, 08:29:56 AM
Being charged for murder because she was white, but I was referring to the kid shot for going into the wrong house
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on April 18, 2023, 10:12:47 AM
Quote from: J70 on April 18, 2023, 06:11:01 AM
You're confused? Really?

So it's middle class and rich kids and not kids who come from single parent or single grandparent-led homes where the adult is working several jobs or otherwise struggling that leads to kids being unsupervised and out on the streets? The problem really IS race itself and not social conditions?

I am still confused

The rioters/mob shouldn't be demonized or criticized because they are under privileged and are not supervised-is that what you're saying?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 18, 2023, 10:44:13 AM
Quote from: whitey on April 18, 2023, 10:12:47 AM
Quote from: J70 on April 18, 2023, 06:11:01 AM
You're confused? Really?

So it's middle class and rich kids and not kids who come from single parent or single grandparent-led homes where the adult is working several jobs or otherwise struggling that leads to kids being unsupervised and out on the streets? The problem really IS race itself and not social conditions?

I am still confused

The rioters/mob shouldn't be demonized or criticized because they are under privileged and are not supervised-is that what you're saying?

I didn't say anything about demonization. I thought this was a tangent conversation in reference to your comment about what progressives would apparently say about my comment on supervision.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 18, 2023, 10:45:10 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 18, 2023, 08:29:56 AM
Being charged for murder because she was white, but I was referring to the kid shot for going into the wrong house

Luckily for that old bastard in Kansas City, the kid survived.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on April 19, 2023, 04:46:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 18, 2023, 06:11:01 AM
You're confused? Really?

So it's middle class and rich kids and not kids who come from single parent or single grandparent-led homes where the adult is working several jobs or otherwise struggling that leads to kids being unsupervised and out on the streets? The problem really IS race itself and not social conditions?
from the videos I've seen statistics would say 80% of the kids are living in a one parent home that's probably a good place to start .
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on April 19, 2023, 06:14:06 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 19, 2023, 04:46:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 18, 2023, 06:11:01 AM
You're confused? Really?

So it's middle class and rich kids and not kids who come from single parent or single grandparent-led homes where the adult is working several jobs or otherwise struggling that leads to kids being unsupervised and out on the streets? The problem really IS race itself and not social conditions?
from the videos I've seen statistics would say 80% of the kids are living in a one parent home that's probably a good place to start .

57% in Belfast .
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on April 19, 2023, 07:09:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 19, 2023, 06:14:06 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 19, 2023, 04:46:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 18, 2023, 06:11:01 AM
You're confused? Really?

So it's middle class and rich kids and not kids who come from single parent or single grandparent-led homes where the adult is working several jobs or otherwise struggling that leads to kids being unsupervised and out on the streets? The problem really IS race itself and not social conditions?
from the videos I've seen statistics would say 80% of the kids are living in a one parent home that's probably a good place to start .

57% in Belfast .
a real pandemic
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 19, 2023, 08:02:42 PM
Quote from: Gmac on April 19, 2023, 04:46:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 18, 2023, 06:11:01 AM
You're confused? Really?

So it's middle class and rich kids and not kids who come from single parent or single grandparent-led homes where the adult is working several jobs or otherwise struggling that leads to kids being unsupervised and out on the streets? The problem really IS race itself and not social conditions?
from the videos I've seen statistics would say 80% of the kids are living in a one parent home that's probably a good place to start .

Whatever the exact statistics, I agree its a vital part of it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnnycool on April 21, 2023, 10:25:40 AM
I think it's high time Marty Mcfly got back into the DeLorean, go back in time and make sure Biff Tannen doesn't get his hands on that's sports almanac as it seems the US has turned into that alternate world....

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: dec on May 07, 2023, 05:35:47 PM
Eight dead at a Texas mall
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Piskin on May 07, 2023, 09:19:19 PM
America has been a bad soap opera since Vietnam. All facets of society has gotten worse despite Wars on everything ie poverty, drugs, crime, terrorism. homelessness etc. It is now a trash can society.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: burdizzo on May 07, 2023, 11:41:35 PM
Quote from: Piskin on May 07, 2023, 09:19:19 PM
America has been a bad soap opera since Vietnam. All facets of society has gotten worse despite Wars on everything ie poverty, drugs, crime, terrorism. homelessness etc. It is now a trash can society.

Hmmm. Coincidentally, that's also around the time they really opened up to non-European immigration.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 10:39:05 AM
Quote from: burdizzo on May 07, 2023, 11:41:35 PM
Quote from: Piskin on May 07, 2023, 09:19:19 PM
America has been a bad soap opera since Vietnam. All facets of society has gotten worse despite Wars on everything ie poverty, drugs, crime, terrorism. homelessness etc. It is now a trash can society.

Hmmm. Coincidentally, that's also around the time they really opened up to non-European immigration.

It is also noted by increased inequality generality
(https://www.mortgagebrokers.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Screen-Shot-2020-03-04-at-10.07.46-AM-670x350.png)

Non European immigration covers all the countries of the world and these are all different. Indians are very successful in the US and pay a lot of tax, but there are not any well known Indian gangs, to be best of my knowledge.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 08, 2023, 10:44:48 AM
Perhaps the growth of the ammosexual culture and the steady, increasing removal of any and all impediments to the ownership of military style weapons has something to do with it.

Or maybe not. Must be those damn brown immigrants.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 11:05:04 AM
Quote from: J70 on May 08, 2023, 10:44:48 AM
Perhaps the growth of the ammosexual culture and the steady, increasing removal of any and all impediments to the ownership of military style weapons has something to do with it.

Or maybe not. Must be those damn brown immigrants.

I'm sure the growth of anti family me first values does contribute, as does the availability of weapons. However, immigrants are not driving either of these things.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: thewobbler on May 08, 2023, 11:23:30 AM
Blaming the more recent immigrants in a country built upon immigration is a troubled perspective.

More likely reasons for this upsurge in mass shootings:

- the decline in family values, and the resultant decline in wishing to impress parents.

- the decline in faith, and the resultant change in moral compasses.

- the rise in movies and television shows that promote it not just being acceptable, but absolutely correct, to kill dozens of people.... as long as you're the "good guy."

- the rise in ultra violent video games, that allow people to subconsciously feel the emotions of a killer, both as a "bad guy" and a "good guy".

- the sheer volume of people trained by the army to use guns.

- poverty and the various mental health issues that are associated.

- normalcy.

- but most of all. The availability of guns.


I personally don't see immigration being factor. Not compared to the above.



Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 08, 2023, 11:34:38 AM
It's a combination of  many factors: mental health crisis, easy availability of guns, lack of enforcement of existing laws, lack of personal responsibility, culture
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 12:24:26 PM
All that stuff is happening in every country but not every country needs or have multiple guns available to them.. the place is fucked but thoughts and prayers to those that went out to the Mall and never came home
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 08, 2023, 12:30:45 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 12:24:26 PM
All that stuff is happening in every country but not every country needs or have multiple guns available to them.. the place is fucked but thoughts and prayers to those that went out to the Mall and never came home

Not every country has a right to bear arms written into their constitutions

Assault weapons should be banned......they were banned before and are actually  banned in some states

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 08, 2023, 12:34:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 12:24:26 PM
All that stuff is happening in every country but not every country needs or have multiple guns available to them.. the place is fucked but thoughts and prayers to those that went out to the Mall and never came home

And there you have it.

I can't speak to the "f**k you, I got mine" phenomenon that is so pervasive in the US becoming a widespread thing globallly, but lots of people everywhere are getting isolated personally or in ideological internet community bubbles.

The difference is the average young European who has gone off the rails can't go down to the strip mall and buy 1000 rounds of bullets and an AR-15 with few, if any, questions asked.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 08, 2023, 12:35:33 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 12:30:45 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 12:24:26 PM
All that stuff is happening in every country but not every country needs or have multiple guns available to them.. the place is fucked but thoughts and prayers to those that went out to the Mall and never came home

Not every country has a right to bear arms written into their constitutions

Assault weapons should be banned......they were banned before and are actually  banned in some states

That right has been around for nearly 250 years.

Its only in recent decades that its meaning has been twisted and corrupted to cover military-style assault weapons for anyone who wants one.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 08, 2023, 01:02:51 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 08, 2023, 12:35:33 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 12:30:45 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 12:24:26 PM
All that stuff is happening in every country but not every country needs or have multiple guns available to them.. the place is fucked but thoughts and prayers to those that went out to the Mall and never came home

Not every country has a right to bear arms written into their constitutions

Assault weapons should be banned......they were banned before and are actually  banned in some states

That right has been around for nearly 250 years.

Its only in recent decades that its meaning has been twisted and corrupted to cover military-style assault weapons for anyone who wants one.

I was traveling for work one time and I got chatting with fella who had one of those Barrett Sniper rifles they used to take down helicopters in south Armagh. He showed me videos of what it could do

Pure madness that an individual can legally possess such a weapon 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 08, 2023, 01:18:15 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 01:02:51 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 08, 2023, 12:35:33 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 12:30:45 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 12:24:26 PM
All that stuff is happening in every country but not every country needs or have multiple guns available to them.. the place is fucked but thoughts and prayers to those that went out to the Mall and never came home

Not every country has a right to bear arms written into their constitutions

Assault weapons should be banned......they were banned before and are actually  banned in some states

That right has been around for nearly 250 years.

Its only in recent decades that its meaning has been twisted and corrupted to cover military-style assault weapons for anyone who wants one.

I was traveling for work one time and I got chatting with fella who had one of those Barrett Sniper rifles they used to take down helicopters in south Armagh. He showed me videos of what it could do

Pure madness that an individual can legally possess such a weapon

I like to think that it will eventually swing back towards something sensible, but then I think about the motivation on each side of the issue and the utter lack of impact of atrocities like Sandy Hook, Uvalde and Las Vegas and it's just despair.

Unfortunately the activists and hardliners on the ownership side far outnumber those on the victimhood side.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 01:35:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 08, 2023, 11:23:30 AM
- the sheer volume of people trained by the army to use guns.


Places like Finland or Switzerland have national service, but still less violence.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 08, 2023, 01:42:47 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 01:35:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 08, 2023, 11:23:30 AM
- the sheer volume of people trained by the army to use guns.


Places like Finland or Switzerland have national service, but still less violence.

Are you  having a laugh making that comparison?

They American veterans (unlike the Finns and Swiss) have actually participated in significant  combat operations, put their lives on the line and seen friends and family members killed.

No lefty politician is going to impinge on their Second Amendment rights
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 01:47:56 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 01:42:47 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 01:35:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 08, 2023, 11:23:30 AM
- the sheer volume of people trained by the army to use guns.


Places like Finland or Switzerland have national service, but still less violence.

Are you  having a laugh making that comparison?

They American veterans (unlike the Finns and Swiss) have actually participated in significant  combat operations, put their lives on the line and seen friends and family members killed.

No lefty politician is going to impinge on their Second Amendment rights

Are most of the mass murders ex army?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rudi on May 08, 2023, 01:49:18 PM
Quote from: Rudi on June 07, 2022, 09:06:08 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azRl1dI-Cts

People need to listen to people that know. Like this fella, one thing about Merica is they tend to round on the lone wolf or the lad who is different.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 08, 2023, 02:34:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 01:47:56 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 01:42:47 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 01:35:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 08, 2023, 11:23:30 AM
- the sheer volume of people trained by the army to use guns.


Places like Finland or Switzerland have national service, but still less violence.

Are you  having a laugh making that comparison?

They American veterans (unlike the Finns and Swiss) have actually participated in significant  combat operations, put their lives on the line and seen friends and family members killed.

No lefty politician is going to impinge on their Second Amendment rights

Are most of the mass murders ex army?

Never said they were

But they would be the most vocal about protecting their second amendment rights and that's why it's so difficult to change the laws

A fair few of the January 6th crew would have been ex military
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 05:12:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 01:42:47 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 01:35:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 08, 2023, 11:23:30 AM
- the sheer volume of people trained by the army to use guns.


Places like Finland or Switzerland have national service, but still less violence.

Are you  having a laugh making that comparison?

They American veterans (unlike the Finns and Swiss) have actually participated in significant  combat operations, put their lives on the line and seen friends and family members killed.

Got in a little hometown jam
So they put a rifle in my hand
Sent me off to a foreign land
To go and kill the yellow man
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 08, 2023, 05:23:50 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 05:12:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 01:42:47 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 01:35:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 08, 2023, 11:23:30 AM
- the sheer volume of people trained by the army to use guns.


Places like Finland or Switzerland have national service, but still less violence.

Are you  having a laugh making that comparison?

They American veterans (unlike the Finns and Swiss) have actually participated in significant  combat operations, put their lives on the line and seen friends and family members killed.

Got in a little hometown jam
So they put a rifle in my hand
Sent me off to a foreign land
To go and kill the yellow man

Get down off your high horse

Who do you think funded and armed the IRA?

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/09/24/archives/fundraising-by-a-group-in-us-called-vital-to-ira-operations.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sinn-fein-s-evolving-funding-stream-from-irish-america-1.2125866
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 05:27:19 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 05:23:50 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 05:12:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 01:42:47 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 01:35:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 08, 2023, 11:23:30 AM
- the sheer volume of people trained by the army to use guns.


Places like Finland or Switzerland have national service, but still less violence.

Are you  having a laugh making that comparison?

They American veterans (unlike the Finns and Swiss) have actually participated in significant  combat operations, put their lives on the line and seen friends and family members killed.

Got in a little hometown jam
So they put a rifle in my hand
Sent me off to a foreign land
To go and kill the yellow man

Get down off your high horse

Who do you think funded and armed the IRA?

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/09/24/archives/fundraising-by-a-group-in-us-called-vital-to-ira-operations.html

Gaddaffi?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 08, 2023, 06:28:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 05:27:19 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 05:23:50 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 05:12:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 01:42:47 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 01:35:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 08, 2023, 11:23:30 AM
- the sheer volume of people trained by the army to use guns.


Places like Finland or Switzerland have national service, but still less violence.

Are you  having a laugh making that comparison?

They American veterans (unlike the Finns and Swiss) have actually participated in significant  combat operations, put their lives on the line and seen friends and family members killed.

Got in a little hometown jam
So they put a rifle in my hand
Sent me off to a foreign land
To go and kill the yellow man

Get down off your high horse

Who do you think funded and armed the IRA?

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/09/24/archives/fundraising-by-a-group-in-us-called-vital-to-ira-operations.html

Gaddaffi?

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/inside/weapons.html#:~:text=The%20two%20main%20sources%20of,Irish%20Republican%20called%20George%20Harrison.

Believe whatever you want
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 06:52:14 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 06:28:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 05:27:19 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 05:23:50 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 05:12:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 01:42:47 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 01:35:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 08, 2023, 11:23:30 AM
- the sheer volume of people trained by the army to use guns.


Places like Finland or Switzerland have national service, but still less violence.

Are you  having a laugh making that comparison?

They American veterans (unlike the Finns and Swiss) have actually participated in significant  combat operations, put their lives on the line and seen friends and family members killed.

Got in a little hometown jam
So they put a rifle in my hand
Sent me off to a foreign land
To go and kill the yellow man

Get down off your high horse

Who do you think funded and armed the IRA?

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/09/24/archives/fundraising-by-a-group-in-us-called-vital-to-ira-operations.html

Gaddaffi?

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/inside/weapons.html#:~:text=The%20two%20main%20sources%20of,Irish%20Republican%20called%20George%20Harrison.

Believe whatever you want

Was I wrong?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 08, 2023, 07:04:59 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 06:52:14 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 06:28:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 05:27:19 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 05:23:50 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 05:12:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 01:42:47 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2023, 01:35:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 08, 2023, 11:23:30 AM
- the sheer volume of people trained by the army to use guns.


Places like Finland or Switzerland have national service, but still less violence.

Are you  having a laugh making that comparison?

They American veterans (unlike the Finns and Swiss) have actually participated in significant  combat operations, put their lives on the line and seen friends and family members killed.

Got in a little hometown jam
So they put a rifle in my hand
Sent me off to a foreign land
To go and kill the yellow man

Get down off your high horse

Who do you think funded and armed the IRA?

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/09/24/archives/fundraising-by-a-group-in-us-called-vital-to-ira-operations.html

Gaddaffi?

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/inside/weapons.html#:~:text=The%20two%20main%20sources%20of,Irish%20Republican%20called%20George%20Harrison.

Believe whatever you want

Was I wrong?

Yes


Your one word answer was dead wrong
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on May 08, 2023, 07:28:16 PM
QuoteIt is believed that the bulk of the material presently in IRA arsenals was shipped from Libya in the mid-1980s with the aid of a skipper, Adrian Hopkins, hired for the purpose by the IRA.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 08, 2023, 07:39:51 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on May 08, 2023, 07:28:16 PM
QuoteIt is believed that the bulk of the material presently in IRA arsenals was shipped from Libya in the mid-1980s with the aid of a skipper, Adrian Hopkins, hired for the purpose by the IRA.

You conveniently ignored the dozens of other line items and the millions upon millions Sinn Fein have raised in the States since the 1990s

Gerry Adam's even has his cancer surgery over here paid by a wealthy American

You lot are the biggest shower of hypocrites I've ever encountered

Taking the high road when it suits you

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/gerry-adams-underwent-laser-surgery-on-prostate-problem-during-us-trip/29011554.html

Imagine going to a talk about jobs and investment and having to listen to a Marxist-LOL
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on May 08, 2023, 07:45:45 PM
QuoteYou conveniently ignored the dozens of other line items and the millions upon millions Sinn Fein have raised in the States since the 1990s

Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 06:28:56 PM
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/inside/weapons.html#:~:text=The%20two%20main%20sources%20of,Irish%20Republican%20called%20George%20Harrison.

CTRL+F "Sinn Fein"

"We're sorry - no matches"
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 08, 2023, 07:47:41 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on May 08, 2023, 07:45:45 PM
QuoteYou conveniently ignored the dozens of other line items and the millions upon millions Sinn Fein have raised in the States since the 1990s

Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 06:28:56 PM
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/inside/weapons.html#:~:text=The%20two%20main%20sources%20of,Irish%20Republican%20called%20George%20Harrison.

CTRL+F "Sinn Fein"

"We're sorry - no matches"

Re read the thread my friend (if you're capable)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 07:49:09 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 07:39:51 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on May 08, 2023, 07:28:16 PM
QuoteIt is believed that the bulk of the material presently in IRA arsenals was shipped from Libya in the mid-1980s with the aid of a skipper, Adrian Hopkins, hired for the purpose by the IRA.

You conveniently ignored the dozens of other line items and the millions upon millions Sinn Fein have raised in the States since the 1990s

Gerry Adam's even has his cancer surgery over here paid by a wealthy American

You lot are the biggest shower of hypocrites I've ever encountered

Taking the high road when it suits you

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/gerry-adams-underwent-laser-surgery-on-prostate-problem-during-us-trip/29011554.html

Imagine going to a talk about jobs and investment and having to listen to a Marxist-LOL

You lot? Are you saying all the posters on here supported the arm struggle? Christ you'll clutch at as many straws as you can to fit your narrative.

Abysmal attempt
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 08, 2023, 07:52:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 07:49:09 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 07:39:51 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on May 08, 2023, 07:28:16 PM
QuoteIt is believed that the bulk of the material presently in IRA arsenals was shipped from Libya in the mid-1980s with the aid of a skipper, Adrian Hopkins, hired for the purpose by the IRA.

You conveniently ignored the dozens of other line items and the millions upon millions Sinn Fein have raised in the States since the 1990s

Gerry Adam's even has his cancer surgery over here paid by a wealthy American

You lot are the biggest shower of hypocrites I've ever encountered

Taking the high road when it suits you

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/gerry-adams-underwent-laser-surgery-on-prostate-problem-during-us-trip/29011554.html

Imagine going to a talk about jobs and investment and having to listen to a Marxist-LOL

You lot? Are you saying all the posters on here supported the arm struggle? Christ you'll clutch at as many straws as you can to fit your narrative.

Abysmal attempt

I'm referring to Northern Catholics and Republicans who vilify the United States at every turn yet have very short memories when it comes to remembering  where the IRA got their guns  and Sinn Fein gets their money
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 08:10:08 PM
So your point was for republicans or northern catholics? You're strange
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on May 08, 2023, 08:17:25 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 07:47:41 PM
Re read the thread my friend (if you're capable)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jne9t8sHpUc
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 08, 2023, 08:27:05 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 08:10:08 PM
So your point was for republicans or northern catholics WHO VILLIFYNTHE UNITED STATES AT EVERY TURN? You're strange
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 08:40:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 08:27:05 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 08:10:08 PM
So your point was for republicans or northern catholics WHO VILLIFYNTHE UNITED STATES AT EVERY TURN? You're strange

Eh? I'm not sure what your point is. Gaddafi was the main provider, yes American provided funds but Gaddafi provided the guns.

I'm not sure how this point is relevant to fuvking headcases running around mass murdering people and gor Americans and glipes like you attempting to give some justification for having guns based on something that was written 250 years ago..

There are ludicrous laws that were written over 250 years ago in various countries, do you feel they are ok?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 08, 2023, 08:47:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 08:40:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2023, 08:27:05 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 08:10:08 PM
So your point was for republicans or northern catholics WHO VILLIFYNTHE UNITED STATES AT EVERY TURN? You're strange

Eh? I'm not sure what your point is. Gaddafi was the main provider, yes American provided funds but Gaddafi provided the guns.

I'm not sure how this point is relevant to fuvking headcases running around mass murdering people and gor Americans and glipes like you attempting to give some justification for having guns based on something that was written 250 years ago..

There are ludicrous laws that were written over 250 years ago in various countries, do you feel they are ok?


I put up a link that chronicled (probably) dozens of instances of where Noraid provided guns and ammunition to the IRA

A lot of the gear was lifted from US Military bases, by US military personnel

Then some clown brought up Vietnam-but the people who fought in Vietnam were the same ones providing the IRA with an enormous amount of weaponry. The IRA weren't too worried about the Vietnamese then we're they?

Follow the thread and you'll see how we got to this part of the discussion.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 08, 2023, 08:55:05 PM
I do, people with guns kill people people without guns don't. But you're looking at a period of over 30 years

In one year alone (2021) there was nearly 49,000 gun related deaths in that great country

Over 35 years there was 3,500 deaths during the troubles
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on May 11, 2023, 10:34:47 PM
See the ex marine who subdued the mentally ill man on subway in nyc is going to be charged with manslaughter, why would anyone intervene in a situation like this in cities like New York
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 11, 2023, 11:23:47 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 11, 2023, 10:34:47 PM
See the ex marine who subdued the mentally ill man on subway in nyc is going to be charged with manslaughter, why would anyone intervene in a situation like this in cities like New York

Saw that

When my kids were younger they took MMA. The coaches were for the most part, former college wrestlers

A trained wrestler can knock someone unconscious in 10 seconds with a choke hold

Why this guy was choking the deceased for something like 10 minutes is beyond me

The immediate bystanders must have felt very threatened because they were helping the Marine pin the guy and did not intervene to help the deceased

It's a tragic event but I'm not surprised he's getting charged

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on May 12, 2023, 01:58:34 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 11, 2023, 10:34:47 PM
See the ex marine who subdued the mentally ill man on subway in nyc is going to be charged with manslaughter, why would anyone intervene in a situation like this in cities like New York

He should've just shot him with a gun and claimed self defence. The 'Murica way!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 12, 2023, 03:24:21 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 11, 2023, 10:34:47 PM
See the ex marine who subdued the mentally ill man on subway in nyc is going to be charged with manslaughter, why would anyone intervene in a situation like this in cities like New York

You think everything he did is ok, that there is no possible justification for bringing this charge?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 12, 2023, 03:46:19 PM
I should add, it may turn out that Penny did nothing wrong, but the issue appears to be why he held him in the chokehold for so long. The train only went one stop after Neely boarded, which would generally take only a minute or two at most. Once it stopped in the next station after the trouble had started, should he not have released him and got out of the car?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on May 12, 2023, 04:25:10 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 03:46:19 PM
I should add, it may turn out that Penny did nothing wrong, but the issue appears to be why he held him in the chokehold for so long. The train only went one stop after Neely boarded, which would generally take only a minute or two at most. Once it stopped in the next station after the trouble had started, should he not have released him and got out of the car?

They're going to find it hard to convict this guy (according to an attorney on Morning Joe)

An argument could be made that they thought he was on drugs due to his behavior and that if they let him up he was liable to attack them. The key witnesses according to the attorney are the bystanders who helped subdue him
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on May 12, 2023, 04:37:41 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 03:24:21 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 11, 2023, 10:34:47 PM
See the ex marine who subdued the mentally ill man on subway in nyc is going to be charged with manslaughter, why would anyone intervene in a situation like this in cities like New York

You think everything he did is ok, that there is no possible justification for bringing this charge?
don't know the full facts so don't know , my point is why would you intervene in a situation in these cities anymore .
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 12, 2023, 04:54:19 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 12, 2023, 04:37:41 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 03:24:21 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 11, 2023, 10:34:47 PM
See the ex marine who subdued the mentally ill man on subway in nyc is going to be charged with manslaughter, why would anyone intervene in a situation like this in cities like New York

You think everything he did is ok, that there is no possible justification for bringing this charge?
don't know the full facts so don't know , my point is why would you intervene in a situation in these cities anymore .

What do you mean?

Overzealous DA offices?

That's hardly restricted to large liberal cities, depending on the issue in question.

But yeah, I think people will be less inclined to intervene physically depending on the outcome of this, for better or worse.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 12, 2023, 04:59:24 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 12, 2023, 04:25:10 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 03:46:19 PM
I should add, it may turn out that Penny did nothing wrong, but the issue appears to be why he held him in the chokehold for so long. The train only went one stop after Neely boarded, which would generally take only a minute or two at most. Once it stopped in the next station after the trouble had started, should he not have released him and got out of the car?

They're going to find it hard to convict this guy (according to an attorney on Morning Joe)

An argument could be made that they thought he was on drugs due to his behavior and that if they let him up he was liable to attack them. The key witnesses according to the attorney are the bystanders who helped subdue him

That's going to be a big issue all right.

Plus whether given the approaching stop everyone could have just moved away from the guy and got out once the doors opened. Timing could  be important.

Another line joins the F line between those two stations, so the F train they were on might have been held up between stations if another train was coming in off the other line.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on May 12, 2023, 05:42:16 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 04:54:19 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 12, 2023, 04:37:41 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 03:24:21 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 11, 2023, 10:34:47 PM
See the ex marine who subdued the mentally ill man on subway in nyc is going to be charged with manslaughter, why would anyone intervene in a situation like this in cities like New York

You think everything he did is ok, that there is no possible justification for bringing this charge?
don't know the full facts so don't know , my point is why would you intervene in a situation in these cities anymore .

What do you mean?

Overzealous DA offices?

That's hardly restricted to large liberal cities, depending on the issue in question.

But yeah, I think people will be less inclined to intervene physically depending on the outcome of this, for better or worse.
these lunatics are  everywhere on public transport in cities and are a nuisance at least and a serious danger in most cases but they are still there every day even after being arrested 40+ times
So you must ask yourself who do these cities care about the paying customer or the mentally ill/violent people ? Someone was attacked with a meat cleaver on Bart yesterday and the Bart spokesman says they have more police, mental health professionals and intervention ambassadors on board most trains
How about locking these people away and arrest people who won't pay the fares and arrest anyone intimidating people for no reason?  Most cities ruining regular people's lives to accommodate.05 % of population
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 12, 2023, 06:09:15 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 12, 2023, 05:42:16 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 04:54:19 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 12, 2023, 04:37:41 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 03:24:21 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 11, 2023, 10:34:47 PM
See the ex marine who subdued the mentally ill man on subway in nyc is going to be charged with manslaughter, why would anyone intervene in a situation like this in cities like New York

You think everything he did is ok, that there is no possible justification for bringing this charge?
don't know the full facts so don't know , my point is why would you intervene in a situation in these cities anymore .

What do you mean?

Overzealous DA offices?

That's hardly restricted to large liberal cities, depending on the issue in question.

But yeah, I think people will be less inclined to intervene physically depending on the outcome of this, for better or worse.
these lunatics are  everywhere on public transport in cities and are a nuisance at least and a serious danger in most cases but they are still there every day even after being arrested 40+ times
So you must ask yourself who do these cities care about the paying customer or the mentally ill/violent people ? Someone was attacked with a meat cleaver on Bart yesterday and the Bart spokesman says they have more police, mental health professionals and intervention ambassadors on board most trains
How about locking these people away and arrest people who won't pay the fares and arrest anyone intimidating people for no reason?  Most cities ruining regular people's lives to accommodate.05 % of population

NYC is looking at the issue of involuntary commitment at the moment. I may be mistaken, but I believe I heard the SF mayor on Jon Stewart's podcast a little while back saying similar. There are personal freedom issues involved, as well as funding. What do you with someone who recovers after a week because while in hospital, they've been on their meds? Do you hold them indefinitely if they've a history of relapsing when released?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on May 12, 2023, 07:08:19 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 06:09:15 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 12, 2023, 05:42:16 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 04:54:19 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 12, 2023, 04:37:41 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 03:24:21 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 11, 2023, 10:34:47 PM
See the ex marine who subdued the mentally ill man on subway in nyc is going to be charged with manslaughter, why would anyone intervene in a situation like this in cities like New York

You think everything he did is ok, that there is no possible justification for bringing this charge?
don't know the full facts so don't know , my point is why would you intervene in a situation in these cities anymore .

What do you mean?

Overzealous DA offices?

That's hardly restricted to large liberal cities, depending on the issue in question.

But yeah, I think people will be less inclined to intervene physically depending on the outcome of this, for better or worse.
these lunatics are  everywhere on public transport in cities and are a nuisance at least and a serious danger in most cases but they are still there every day even after being arrested 40+ times
So you must ask yourself who do these cities care about the paying customer or the mentally ill/violent people ? Someone was attacked with a meat cleaver on Bart yesterday and the Bart spokesman says they have more police, mental health professionals and intervention ambassadors on board most trains
How about locking these people away and arrest people who won't pay the fares and arrest anyone intimidating people for no reason?  Most cities ruining regular people's lives to accommodate.05 % of population

NYC is looking at the issue of involuntary commitment at the moment. I may be mistaken, but I believe I heard the SF mayor on Jon Stewart's podcast a little while back saying similar. There are personal freedom issues involved, as well as funding. What do you with someone who recovers after a week because while in hospital, they've been on their meds? Do you hold them indefinitely if they've a history of relapsing when released?

It should be possible to ban people from public transport if they cause hassle there, even if you do not lock them up.
I'd also favour a one strike approach for people acting the maggot on aircraft.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on May 12, 2023, 07:15:03 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 06:09:15 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 12, 2023, 05:42:16 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 04:54:19 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 12, 2023, 04:37:41 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 03:24:21 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 11, 2023, 10:34:47 PM
See the ex marine who subdued the mentally ill man on subway in nyc is going to be charged with manslaughter, why would anyone intervene in a situation like this in cities like New York

You think everything he did is ok, that there is no possible justification for bringing this charge?
don't know the full facts so don't know , my point is why would you intervene in a situation in these cities anymore .

What do you mean?

Overzealous DA offices?

That's hardly restricted to large liberal cities, depending on the issue in question.

But yeah, I think people will be less inclined to intervene physically depending on the outcome of this, for better or worse.
these lunatics are  everywhere on public transport in cities and are a nuisance at least and a serious danger in most cases but they are still there every day even after being arrested 40+ times
So you must ask yourself who do these cities care about the paying customer or the mentally ill/violent people ? Someone was attacked with a meat cleaver on Bart yesterday and the Bart spokesman says they have more police, mental health professionals and intervention ambassadors on board most trains
How about locking these people away and arrest people who won't pay the fares and arrest anyone intimidating people for no reason?  Most cities ruining regular people's lives to accommodate.05 % of population

NYC is looking at the issue of involuntary commitment at the moment. I may be mistaken, but I believe I heard the SF mayor on Jon Stewart's podcast a little while back saying similar. There are personal freedom issues involved, as well as funding. What do you with someone who recovers after a week because while in hospital, they've been on their meds? Do you hold them indefinitely if they've a history of relapsing when released?
from my experience of walking around sf and observing the homeless pandemic a large portion of them are never coming back to normalcy,  their brains are fried and they need to be permanently locked up in a mental institution for their and the public's safety , sf politicians seem to favor let them die in the streets of a fentanyl overdose after years of torture. I know which solution I would want for a family member of mine
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 12, 2023, 07:19:29 PM
Plane is one thing, but how do you enforce entry into something like a metro/subway in a large city or even buses or suburban rail?

In NYC, I'd say, based purely on my personal observations, that 10% of people don't even pay bus or subway fares. There's literally millions of people using the NYC Transit system daily. I guarantee you the destitute, mentally ill homeless person jumps the turnstile or goes through an open emergency gate. And you can't have a cop in every subway car or bus.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 12, 2023, 07:20:35 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 12, 2023, 07:15:03 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 06:09:15 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 12, 2023, 05:42:16 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 04:54:19 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 12, 2023, 04:37:41 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 12, 2023, 03:24:21 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 11, 2023, 10:34:47 PM
See the ex marine who subdued the mentally ill man on subway in nyc is going to be charged with manslaughter, why would anyone intervene in a situation like this in cities like New York

You think everything he did is ok, that there is no possible justification for bringing this charge?
don't know the full facts so don't know , my point is why would you intervene in a situation in these cities anymore .

What do you mean?

Overzealous DA offices?

That's hardly restricted to large liberal cities, depending on the issue in question.

But yeah, I think people will be less inclined to intervene physically depending on the outcome of this, for better or worse.
these lunatics are  everywhere on public transport in cities and are a nuisance at least and a serious danger in most cases but they are still there every day even after being arrested 40+ times
So you must ask yourself who do these cities care about the paying customer or the mentally ill/violent people ? Someone was attacked with a meat cleaver on Bart yesterday and the Bart spokesman says they have more police, mental health professionals and intervention ambassadors on board most trains
How about locking these people away and arrest people who won't pay the fares and arrest anyone intimidating people for no reason?  Most cities ruining regular people's lives to accommodate.05 % of population

NYC is looking at the issue of involuntary commitment at the moment. I may be mistaken, but I believe I heard the SF mayor on Jon Stewart's podcast a little while back saying similar. There are personal freedom issues involved, as well as funding. What do you with someone who recovers after a week because while in hospital, they've been on their meds? Do you hold them indefinitely if they've a history of relapsing when released?
from my experience of walking around sf and observing the homeless pandemic a large portion of them are never coming back to normalcy,  their brains are fried and they need to be permanently locked up in a mental institution for their and the public's safety , sf politicians seem to favor let them die in the streets of a fentanyl overdose after years of torture. I know which solution I would want for a family member of mine

No argument with that.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 13, 2023, 12:05:40 AM
BTW this case is only going to the Grand Jury. There is no indictment yet. They might decline to charge him at all, or they may change it from second degree manslaughter to a lesser charge.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on May 13, 2023, 01:01:01 AM
Hard to see how he doesn't get charged for anything. He killed a man who was only talking out loud. I've encountered plenty of verbally aggressive homeless people on the subway, and elsewhere in the US.   I've never had to kill any of them yet though.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Skeletor on June 07, 2023, 08:08:34 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65829241
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blasmere on June 07, 2023, 08:57:32 AM
Quote from: Skeletor on June 07, 2023, 08:08:34 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65829241


I know it's much more nuanced but contrast the reaction in Serbia to the shootings to the US where life goes on very quickly after holdings a memoriam or two
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65597622 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65597622)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on June 07, 2023, 10:40:27 AM
Quote from: blasmere on June 07, 2023, 08:57:32 AM
Quote from: Skeletor on June 07, 2023, 08:08:34 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65829241


I know it's much more nuanced but contrast the reaction in Serbia to the shootings to the US where life goes on very quickly after holdings a memoriam or two
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65597622 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65597622)

Nothing nuanced about it. You have a completely irrational section of the US population who are entrenched zealots who will tolerate no limits whatsoever to their "constitutional" right to carry any weapon their delicate, insecure masculinity desires. Then you have the rest of the population who have basically given up because there is no prospect for change and mass shootings are now a mundane background feature of US life, same as car accidents or heart attacks. You just hope that it doesn't hit your family and that the active shooter drills your kids do in school (and you do at work) will limit the damage if it should happen.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Skeletor on June 07, 2023, 10:54:34 AM
Quote from: J70 on June 07, 2023, 10:40:27 AM
Quote from: blasmere on June 07, 2023, 08:57:32 AM
Quote from: Skeletor on June 07, 2023, 08:08:34 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65829241


I know it's much more nuanced but contrast the reaction in Serbia to the shootings to the US where life goes on very quickly after holdings a memoriam or two
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65597622 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65597622)

Nothing nuanced about it. You have a completely irrational section of the US population who are entrenched zealots who will tolerate no limits whatsoever to their "constitutional" right to carry any weapon their delicate, insecure masculinity desires. Then you have the rest of the population who have basically given up because there is no prospect for change and mass shootings are now a mundane background feature of US life, same as car accidents or heart attacks. You just hope that it doesn't hit your family and that the active shooter drills your kids do in school (and you do at work) will limit the damage if it should happen.

It's easy to see why the Founding Fathers added the Second Amendment. In 1791, the United States had no police force, was under threat from Native American tribes and a probable British re-invasion and was a rural nation where farmers had to deal with wild animals. Allowing gun ownership was feasible in that society. However in 2023, when there is a police presence and the murder rate has skyrocketed, therefore allowing guns makes no sense. So, while the Constitution may grant these rights, they are antiquated and should be repealed.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 07, 2023, 11:25:53 AM
The constitution has nothing to do with it, it's pure money and greed and marketing by the NRA oh and the people who make guns!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on June 07, 2023, 01:40:34 PM
Quote from: Skeletor on June 07, 2023, 10:54:34 AM
Quote from: J70 on June 07, 2023, 10:40:27 AM
Quote from: blasmere on June 07, 2023, 08:57:32 AM
Quote from: Skeletor on June 07, 2023, 08:08:34 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65829241


I know it's much more nuanced but contrast the reaction in Serbia to the shootings to the US where life goes on very quickly after holdings a memoriam or two
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65597622 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65597622)

Nothing nuanced about it. You have a completely irrational section of the US population who are entrenched zealots who will tolerate no limits whatsoever to their "constitutional" right to carry any weapon their delicate, insecure masculinity desires. Then you have the rest of the population who have basically given up because there is no prospect for change and mass shootings are now a mundane background feature of US life, same as car accidents or heart attacks. You just hope that it doesn't hit your family and that the active shooter drills your kids do in school (and you do at work) will limit the damage if it should happen.

It's easy to see why the Founding Fathers added the Second Amendment. In 1791, the United States had no police force, was under threat from Native American tribes and a probable British re-invasion and was a rural nation where farmers had to deal with wild animals. Allowing gun ownership was feasible in that society. However in 2023, when there is a police presence and the murder rate has skyrocketed, therefore allowing guns makes no sense. So, while the Constitution may grant these rights, they are antiquated and should be repealed.

They won't be repealed

People, rightly or wrongly, believe that they have a constitutional right to bear arms

And at this stage there are so many guns in circulation, even if they banned all guns tomorrow, there would still be hundreds of millions of guns in circulation ( in the hands of criminals who wouldn't turn their guns in)

And the gun lobby is in some regards like the abortion lobby.....any limitation on gun ownership is seen as the beginning of a slippery slope

There are plenty of gun laws and restrictions in place that aren't being enforced. Maybe they should start there

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on June 07, 2023, 04:28:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 07, 2023, 11:25:53 AM
The constitution has nothing to do with it, it's pure money and greed and marketing by the NRA oh and the people who make guns!
how many NRA members have committed mass shootings you think ?
Gun ownership is at an all time high in the USA and if you have been to a city lately it won't be changing anytime soon
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on June 07, 2023, 05:04:12 PM
I wonder how many young male mass shooters have either got their guns directly from NRA member relatives or were able to get them as a result of the lax restrictions on gun ownership and availability for which we can thank the NRA.

The comment about cities reminds me of a conversation I had with my cousin on a recent trip to Florida. My cousin is a bit of a Trumper, but probably more due to the environment she's in than any major personal conviction or belief. She had been up in NYC for Paddy's Day to meet myself and some of our Irish-based cousins who'd come over. When I subsequently saw her in Florida, she told me her friends down there had been pleading with her not to make the trip to NYC, that it was extremely dangerous and she'd be taking her life into her hands if she went! Which really goes to show the kind of hysterical nonsense that is circulating through right wing new bubbles.

Three people whom I didn't personally know but who were connected or related to extended family were murdered by gunshot this year. None in a big city. One was in Florida when the person was killed by their housemate over some stupid disagreement. Just got angry (probably on something), whipped out a gun and shot him in the chest. The other two were killed by a mass shooter they just happened to cross paths with while he was on his random rampage.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on June 19, 2023, 07:06:10 PM
29 people shot in Chicago at a Juneteenth celebration Saturday night
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 19, 2023, 07:55:39 PM
Those bad people with good guns don't know what to be at.

Could be a 1000 people killed, would not make one bitta difference
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on June 19, 2023, 08:06:23 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 19, 2023, 07:55:39 PM
Those bad people with good guns don't know what to be at.

Could be a 1000 people killed, would not make one bitta difference
bbc itv or wherever you get your information from probably didn't run this story , when this is ten minutes from your doorstep you better be able to defend yourself
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 19, 2023, 08:28:56 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 19, 2023, 08:06:23 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 19, 2023, 07:55:39 PM
Those bad people with good guns don't know what to be at.

Could be a 1000 people killed, would not make one bitta difference
bbc itv or wherever you get your information from probably didn't run this story , when this is ten minutes from your doorstep you better be able to defend yourself

If there was no guns you'd not be worrying about defending yourself
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Tony Baloney on June 19, 2023, 08:33:20 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 19, 2023, 08:06:23 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 19, 2023, 07:55:39 PM
Those bad people with good guns don't know what to be at.

Could be a 1000 people killed, would not make one bitta difference
bbc itv or wherever you get your information from probably didn't run this story , when this is ten minutes from your doorstep you better be able to defend yourself
Pretty sure MR grew up in the Lower Falls so "this" probably was less than 10 mins from his doorstep many times.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on June 19, 2023, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 19, 2023, 08:33:20 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 19, 2023, 08:06:23 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 19, 2023, 07:55:39 PM
Those bad people with good guns don't know what to be at.

Could be a 1000 people killed, would not make one bitta difference
bbc itv or wherever you get your information from probably didn't run this story , when this is ten minutes from your doorstep you better be able to defend yourself
Pretty sure MR grew up in the Lower Falls so "this" probably was less than 10 mins from his doorstep many times.
slightly different situation going on in Chicago, these bucks don't care if your catholic or Protestant and they wouldn't know the difference between the falls road and Niagara Falls
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 19, 2023, 08:49:56 PM
Stop producing guns would be a start
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on June 19, 2023, 10:32:13 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 19, 2023, 08:49:56 PM
Stop producing guns would be a start

Or at least stop making them easier to get yourself set up with than driving a car.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hereiam on June 19, 2023, 11:01:21 PM
Seen where a father last thurs/Friday in Ohio lined his 3 sons up in the front garden of the house and shot them with his rifle 3, 5 & 7. The place is crazy
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on June 20, 2023, 09:15:05 AM
Quote from: Hereiam on June 19, 2023, 11:01:21 PM
Seen where a father last thurs/Friday in Ohio lined his 3 sons up in the front garden of the house and shot them with his rifle 3, 5 & 7. The place is crazy

That is so fucked up it's beyond words. What an absolute monster of a ****. God love those three children. In any sane country that single event alone should be enough for any government to start implementing gun controls. But hell no, in the good ol' U S of A what we need is more guns. I don't care what the argument is for guns the simple fact is this is wrong.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: RedHand88 on June 20, 2023, 09:46:47 AM
Quote from: Hereiam on June 19, 2023, 11:01:21 PM
Seen where a father last thurs/Friday in Ohio lined his 3 sons up in the front garden of the house and shot them with his rifle 3, 5 & 7. The place is crazy

If the children had guns they could have protected themselves.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hereiam on June 20, 2023, 10:04:32 AM
Wasn't deemed news worthy over here.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on June 20, 2023, 10:19:55 AM
More Guns needed. Haven't reached the optimal amount of guns in order to make gun crime fall. USA must ramp up production.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: pbat on June 22, 2023, 11:26:37 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/us/2023/0622/1390503-ohio-shooting/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on October 26, 2023, 08:47:10 AM
At it again
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trailer on October 26, 2023, 09:12:24 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 26, 2023, 08:47:10 AMAt it again

Still not enough guns in America. More needed in order to make America safe.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on October 26, 2023, 09:17:25 AM
If only the bowling alley staff and customers had more good guns they could have got the bad guy with the good gun
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on October 26, 2023, 10:15:21 AM
This thread is over 10 years old at this stage. And what has changed in America in terms of mass shootings? Nothing apart from hundreds of people who are no longer here that should be here.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 26, 2023, 10:22:55 AM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on October 26, 2023, 10:15:21 AMThis thread is over 10 years old at this stage. And what has changed in America in terms of mass shootings? Nothing apart from hundreds of people who are no longer here that should be here.

But a handful of extremely wealthy folk are getting even wealthier, are able to share a little of this wealth with policy makers in government who change or maintain law to keep the money rolling in... As innocent men, women and children are lowered into the ground on a daily bases

Must be some hesdfu€k living somewhere surrounded my people with guns in their glove box, house, holster...just waiting for them to have an 'off' day or go on a bender
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on October 26, 2023, 10:27:57 AM
This one is slightly different though. This was not a randomer who walked into a shop and bought a gun. He was a firearms instructor. He should be part of the control process not going on a killing spree.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnnycool on October 26, 2023, 10:34:41 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2023, 10:27:57 AMThis one is slightly different though. This was not a randomer who walked into a shop and bought a gun. He was a firearms instructor. He should be part of the control process not going on a killing spree.

Who'd recently been treated for Mental Health issues I read somewhere.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 26, 2023, 10:48:27 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2023, 10:27:57 AMThis one is slightly different though. This was not a randomer who walked into a shop and bought a gun. He was a firearms instructor. He should be part of the control process not going on a killing spree.

An 'off' day with his inhouse armory to hand
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on October 26, 2023, 01:24:48 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 26, 2023, 10:22:55 AM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on October 26, 2023, 10:15:21 AMThis thread is over 10 years old at this stage. And what has changed in America in terms of mass shootings? Nothing apart from hundreds of people who are no longer here that should be here.

But a handful of extremely wealthy folk are getting even wealthier, are able to share a little of this wealth with policy makers in government who change or maintain law to keep the money rolling in... As innocent men, women and children are lowered into the ground on a daily bases

Must be some hesdfu€k living somewhere surrounded my people with guns in their glove box, house, holster...just waiting for them to have an 'off' day or go on a bender

It is messed up for sure.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 26, 2023, 01:32:27 PM
Some of the gun supporters are just complete idiots

They're bringing in some new restrictions here in Massachusetts, whereby if you carry a gun on your person, you would have to notify someone before you enter their house that you're carrying. (Eg a friend invites you over for dinner)

The person who was telling me was outraged at that proposed restriction and couldn't understand why I wouldn't want someone with a gun coming into my house without me knowing they were armed.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 26, 2023, 02:02:10 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 26, 2023, 01:32:27 PMSome of the gun supporters are just complete idiots

They're bringing in some new restrictions here in Massachusetts, whereby if you carry a gun on your person, you would have to notify someone before you enter their house that you're carrying. (Eg a friend invites you over for dinner)

The person who was telling me was outraged at that proposed restriction and couldn't understand why I wouldn't want someone with a gun coming into my house without me knowing they were armed.


Why are they carrying a gun?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 26, 2023, 02:15:52 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 26, 2023, 02:02:10 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 26, 2023, 01:32:27 PMSome of the gun supporters are just complete idiots

They're bringing in some new restrictions here in Massachusetts, whereby if you carry a gun on your person, you would have to notify someone before you enter their house that you're carrying. (Eg a friend invites you over for dinner)

The person who was telling me was outraged at that proposed restriction and couldn't understand why I wouldn't want someone with a gun coming into my house without me knowing they were armed.


Why are they carrying a gun?

Because it's their right to do so (and they got one before Biden and the Democrats prevented them)

(And they live in an affluent town with next to zero crime)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: thewobbler on October 26, 2023, 02:22:41 PM
Why are they carrying a gun?

For the same reason that people go to church every week, and listen to absolute garbage from a man at a lectern - they believe it's the right thing to do, and no matter what evidence you bring forward to the contrary, they'll never change their mind.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: thewobbler on October 26, 2023, 02:29:34 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on October 26, 2023, 10:34:41 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2023, 10:27:57 AMThis one is slightly different though. This was not a randomer who walked into a shop and bought a gun. He was a firearms instructor. He should be part of the control process not going on a killing spree.

Who'd recently been treated for Mental Health issues I read somewhere.



Unfortunately that's a "nothing to see here" thing across the pond.

Depending on what stats you trust, somewhere between 16 and 25% of US adults are on prescription drugs for mental health issues.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 26, 2023, 02:40:46 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 26, 2023, 02:15:52 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 26, 2023, 02:02:10 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 26, 2023, 01:32:27 PMSome of the gun supporters are just complete idiots

They're bringing in some new restrictions here in Massachusetts, whereby if you carry a gun on your person, you would have to notify someone before you enter their house that you're carrying. (Eg a friend invites you over for dinner)

The person who was telling me was outraged at that proposed restriction and couldn't understand why I wouldn't want someone with a gun coming into my house without me knowing they were armed.


Why are they carrying a gun?

Because it's their right to do so (and they got one before Biden and the Democrats prevented them)

(And they live in an affluent town with next to zero crime)

Absolute lunacy
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 26, 2023, 03:29:31 PM
I was listening to a podcast this morning featuring the author of a biography on Mitt Romney which is just coming out. Apparently Romney says that part of the reason so many GOP politicians have publicly sold their souls to Trump is simple fear for themselves and their families because of death threats and the MAGA base being heavily armed relative to other elements of society. Apparently Romney was spending $5K/day for security for himself and his family when he voted to convict Trump in the January 6 impeachment, but says he realizes that most politicians aren't as wealthy as he is and simply cannot do that.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AustinPowers on October 26, 2023, 06:10:00 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 26, 2023, 01:32:27 PMSome of the gun supporters are just complete idiots

They're bringing in some new restrictions here in Massachusetts, whereby if you carry a gun on your person, you would have to notify someone before you enter their house that you're carrying. (Eg a friend invites you over for dinner)

The person who was telling me was outraged at that proposed restriction and couldn't understand why I wouldn't want someone with a gun coming into my house without me knowing they were armed.


Why  would you bring a gun around to someone's house?

Getting ready to  leave for dinner at John and Mary's. "Get the  coats, dear. I'll get the shotgun"

Mad.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on October 26, 2023, 07:44:41 PM
Quote from: AustinPowers on October 26, 2023, 06:10:00 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 26, 2023, 01:32:27 PMSome of the gun supporters are just complete idiots

They're bringing in some new restrictions here in Massachusetts, whereby if you carry a gun on your person, you would have to notify someone before you enter their house that you're carrying. (Eg a friend invites you over for dinner)

The person who was telling me was outraged at that proposed restriction and couldn't understand why I wouldn't want someone with a gun coming into my house without me knowing they were armed.


Why  would you bring a gun around to someone's house?

Getting ready to  leave for dinner at John and Mary's. "Get the  coats, dear. I'll get the shotgun"

Mad.

Friends you might be able to ask, but presumably you could have repair men and the like as well.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: RedHand88 on October 26, 2023, 07:52:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2023, 07:44:41 PM
Quote from: AustinPowers on October 26, 2023, 06:10:00 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 26, 2023, 01:32:27 PMSome of the gun supporters are just complete idiots

They're bringing in some new restrictions here in Massachusetts, whereby if you carry a gun on your person, you would have to notify someone before you enter their house that you're carrying. (Eg a friend invites you over for dinner)

The person who was telling me was outraged at that proposed restriction and couldn't understand why I wouldn't want someone with a gun coming into my house without me knowing they were armed.


Why  would you bring a gun around to someone's house?

Getting ready to  leave for dinner at John and Mary's. "Get the  coats, dear. I'll get the shotgun"

Mad.

Friends you might be able to ask, but presumably you could have repair men and the like as well.

If the plumber lands with a handgun he's not getting past the gate.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 26, 2023, 08:18:59 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on October 26, 2023, 07:52:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2023, 07:44:41 PM
Quote from: AustinPowers on October 26, 2023, 06:10:00 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 26, 2023, 01:32:27 PMSome of the gun supporters are just complete idiots

They're bringing in some new restrictions here in Massachusetts, whereby if you carry a gun on your person, you would have to notify someone before you enter their house that you're carrying. (Eg a friend invites you over for dinner)

The person who was telling me was outraged at that proposed restriction and couldn't understand why I wouldn't want someone with a gun coming into my house without me knowing they were armed.


Why  would you bring a gun around to someone's house?

Getting ready to  leave for dinner at John and Mary's. "Get the  coats, dear. I'll get the shotgun"

Mad.

Friends you might be able to ask, but presumably you could have repair men and the like as well.

If the plumber lands with a handgun he's not getting past the gate.

Re this restriction above. The local Dirty Harry-lite enters your house and:

A. Alerts you to the fact that's he / she is carry a gun (I'm presuming it's loaded). This then I assume either gives the home owner a chance to grab their gun and have it handy incase they have an argument / too much drink / lsd, any other mind altering drug / dual or a slim slim chance to get out of that room and try (chances are extremely slim) to get to their own armory without getting peppered with bullets. Other members of the home owners family could well receive some friendly fire

B: Not alert the home owner (what is the penalty BTW?). Regardless of the penalty, if the visitor skins their smoke wagon and either kills or wounds the home owner, the penalty for not declaring in the first place is not worth a buck.

....kudos to the law makers in Massachusetts.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 26, 2023, 08:26:02 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on October 26, 2023, 07:52:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2023, 07:44:41 PM
Quote from: AustinPowers on October 26, 2023, 06:10:00 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 26, 2023, 01:32:27 PMSome of the gun supporters are just complete idiots

They're bringing in some new restrictions here in Massachusetts, whereby if you carry a gun on your person, you would have to notify someone before you enter their house that you're carrying. (Eg a friend invites you over for dinner)

The person who was telling me was outraged at that proposed restriction and couldn't understand why I wouldn't want someone with a gun coming into my house without me knowing they were armed.


Why  would you bring a gun around to someone's house?

Getting ready to  leave for dinner at John and Mary's. "Get the  coats, dear. I'll get the shotgun"

Mad.

Friends you might be able to ask, but presumably you could have repair men and the like as well.

If the plumber lands with a handgun he's not getting past the gate.

You wouldn't even know they have it. 

They have all types of concealed carry holsters for depending on what you're wearing.

Ankle holster-long trousers

Shoulder holster-wearing a jacket

Hip holster-hoody or untucked shirt

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Milltown Row2 on October 26, 2023, 09:56:37 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 26, 2023, 08:26:02 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on October 26, 2023, 07:52:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2023, 07:44:41 PM
Quote from: AustinPowers on October 26, 2023, 06:10:00 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 26, 2023, 01:32:27 PMSome of the gun supporters are just complete idiots

They're bringing in some new restrictions here in Massachusetts, whereby if you carry a gun on your person, you would have to notify someone before you enter their house that you're carrying. (Eg a friend invites you over for dinner)

The person who was telling me was outraged at that proposed restriction and couldn't understand why I wouldn't want someone with a gun coming into my house without me knowing they were armed.


Why  would you bring a gun around to someone's house?

Getting ready to  leave for dinner at John and Mary's. "Get the  coats, dear. I'll get the shotgun"

Mad.

Friends you might be able to ask, but presumably you could have repair men and the like as well.

If the plumber lands with a handgun he's not getting past the gate.

You wouldn't even know they have it. 

They have all types of concealed carry holsters for depending on what you're wearing.

Ankle holster-long trousers

Shoulder holster-wearing a jacket

Hip holster-hoody or untucked shirt



With all the concealed guns and users about you'd expect at least someone in the bowling alley had a good gun? Or do they leave it in the lockers with their shoes?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: RedHand88 on October 26, 2023, 10:04:30 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 26, 2023, 09:56:37 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 26, 2023, 08:26:02 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on October 26, 2023, 07:52:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2023, 07:44:41 PM
Quote from: AustinPowers on October 26, 2023, 06:10:00 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 26, 2023, 01:32:27 PMSome of the gun supporters are just complete idiots

They're bringing in some new restrictions here in Massachusetts, whereby if you carry a gun on your person, you would have to notify someone before you enter their house that you're carrying. (Eg a friend invites you over for dinner)

The person who was telling me was outraged at that proposed restriction and couldn't understand why I wouldn't want someone with a gun coming into my house without me knowing they were armed.


Why  would you bring a gun around to someone's house?

Getting ready to  leave for dinner at John and Mary's. "Get the  coats, dear. I'll get the shotgun"

Mad.

Friends you might be able to ask, but presumably you could have repair men and the like as well.

If the plumber lands with a handgun he's not getting past the gate.

You wouldn't even know they have it. 

They have all types of concealed carry holsters for depending on what you're wearing.

Ankle holster-long trousers

Shoulder holster-wearing a jacket

Hip holster-hoody or untucked shirt



With all the concealed guns and users about you'd expect at least someone in the blowing alley had a good gun? Or do they leave it in the lockers with their shoes?

Funny how there are hundreds of good guys with guns now trying to find the bad guy with a gun and they haven't a clue where he is 24 hours later.