Down Club Hurling & Football

[thewobbler]

Wobbler whilst I agree with you about clubs doing all to get lads off this is different. For the lad Clarke and Laverty to call to the lads house and apologise and to say it was unacceptable and it should never happen. Kilcoo then apologised and said that stuff is not acceptable and he will be hit with a suspension after an investigation into it is complete. That investigation would be held straight after the minor final which he would have been playing in only for Down to act swiftly which Kilcoo did not think would happen. They tried to pull a fast one. Suspend the lad for 4 weeks after the minor final meaning he wouldn't miss any matches.

It might be different. But is it really worse? Hand on heart, would you rather be on the end of highly personal sledging, or get a broken jaw from a sucker punch? There is a cover up over things like the latter every couple of weeks throughout the season.

As a talking point it reminds me of the enragement of soccer fans and pundits towards spitting, whereas when one of their own breaks an opponents leg in an aggressive tackle it's "part of the game".

If this young fella had have smashed someone's jaw in the semi final, there would have been widespread sympathy for him missing his "only chance of playing in a minor final".

Or if this young fella had have spent a couple of minutes abusing the referee and calling him every name under the sun, while identifying him only through his physical flaws, there would have been widespread sympathy for him missing his "only chance of playing in a minor final".

Unfortunately familiarity can and does breed acceptance. And once it's accepted, it's no longer considered underhand, but just part of the game.

I'm fundamentally against sledging, and would welcome any potential measures to ensure the popular consensus is that it is beyond the pail.

But expecting any club to pursue and punish their own players for sledging, when every club across the country will steadfastly defend their players in similar or worse scenarios, is a tad rich.

[whitegoodman]

Its not that often I would agree with Downjim but in this case I do and I think you are wrong Wobbler.  I don't think you are getting the main issues around this.  It is only a matter of months since the Mayobridge lad lost his mother and his opponent is using this to gain an advantage.  This happened at an underage match FFS.  If you don't deem this worse than what has gone before then it says more about you than anything else.

When you take into account the offence and the age of the lad I think most clubs would not have appealed in the circumstances.  The club should have set down a marker that he went too far and went way over the line that would be deemed acceptable.  I think any club with morals would have done this and I would have no problem telling anyone from Kilcoo this.  How would the lad from Mayobridge and his father have felt when they heard the news of the appeal? That heart felt doorstep apology doesn't seem so heartfelt now.   It is ironic as it would have been likely that Kilcoo would have won yesterday without him.

Kilcoo have had a fantastic year but it is tainted by this.  I have no doubts that they wont give a damn but it has and will lose them respect throughout the county and province.

[downjim]

Its not that often I would agree with Downjim but in this case I do and I think you are wrong Wobbler.  I don't think you are getting the main issues around this.  It is only a matter of months since the Mayobridge lad lost his mother and his opponent is using this to gain an advantage.  This happened at an underage match FFS.  If you don't deem this worse than what has gone before then it says more about you than anything else.

When you take into account the offence and the age of the lad I think most clubs would not have appealed in the circumstances.  The club should have set down a marker that he went too far and went way over the line that would be deemed acceptable.  I think any club with morals would have done this and I would have no problem telling anyone from Kilcoo this.  How would the lad from Mayobridge and his father have felt when they heard the news of the appeal? That heart felt doorstep apology doesn't seem so heartfelt now.   It is ironic as it would have been likely that Kilcoo would have won yesterday without him.

Kilcoo have had a fantastic year but it is tainted by this.  I have no doubts that they wont give a damn but it has and will lose them respect throughout the county and province.

+1

[thewobbler]

With the greatest respect WGM, you're missing my fundamental point. I'm not in any way suggesting that Kilcoo were right to appeal. I'm suggesting that if placed in an identical situation, just about every club in Ireland would appeal.

You might wish to believe that your own club is different. But I expect it's not.

Anything goes in Gaelic Games. We have a serious cultural issue. Kilcoo are a symptom, not the cause.

[whitegoodman]

I get your fundamental point, I still think its wrong.

A clubs actions are based on the culture set within that club.  I would be shocked and horrified if 90% of clubs in Down would appeal an underage suspension given the circumstances.  You obviously believe Ballyholland would have appealed which is a surprise as I know a lot of good people in Ballyholland and would envisage they wouldn't stand for this sort of thing.

Id actually be shocked if 90% of the people on this board didn't disagree with what you say.  If that's not the case then it is extremely disturbing and the GAA really has hit a new low.

[thewobbler]

I get your fundamental point, I still think its wrong.

A clubs actions are based on the culture set within that club.  I would be shocked and horrified if 90% of clubs in Down would appeal an underage suspension given the circumstances.  You obviously believe Ballyholland would have appealed which is a surprise as I know a lot of good people in Ballyholland and would envisage they wouldn't stand for this sort of thing.

Id actually be shocked if 90% of the people on this board didn't disagree with what you say.  If that's not the case then it is extremely disturbing and the GAA really has hit a new low.

There's no need to bring Ballyholland into this.

Of course 90%+ people on this board would disagree with me. It's remarkably easy to have morals unless you're physically voting for them to restrict your club's progress.

But I would fully expect that 90%+ of a) management teams and b) club committees, would vote in favour of bad press plus a championship, over good press and no championship. Right across Ireland.

The subject matter might be a new low. But the appeals process has been morally bankrupt for as long as I can remember.

[Too many steps]

With the greatest respect WGM, you're missing my fundamental point. I'm not in any way suggesting that Kilcoo were right to appeal. I'm suggesting that if placed in an identical situation, just about every club in Ireland would appeal.

You might wish to believe that your own club is different. But I expect it's not.

Anything goes in Gaelic Games. We have a serious cultural issue. Kilcoo are a symptom, not the cause.

This is a fair point - I can't think of any time a player has been suspended by their own club because of an on the field disciplinary issue and I do think while it is easy to take the high ground when it isn't your club. I'm not sure any club would have voluntarily suspended one of their most important players before a county final.

Clubs/coaches maybe in effect 'suspend' players for missing training or breaching a no drink ban etc, but obviously this is just called 'being dropped'.

I do think we have to remember that this happened at underage level though and no matter what clubs/county/provincial boards etc did in this matter in regards to applying and lifting sanctions, the one thing I can say is that as a parent, I can categorically state, that if it was my son who did something like this, he would not have been on that field yesterday.

[forevergreen]

I get your fundamental point, I still think its wrong.

A clubs actions are based on the culture set within that club.  I would be shocked and horrified if 90% of clubs in Down would appeal an underage suspension given the circumstances.  You obviously believe Ballyholland would have appealed which is a surprise as I know a lot of good people in Ballyholland and would envisage they wouldn't stand for this sort of thing.

Id actually be shocked if 90% of the people on this board didn't disagree with what you say.  If that's not the case then it is extremely disturbing and the GAA really has hit a new low.

There's no need to bring Ballyholland into this.

Of course 90%+ people on this board would disagree with me.

But I would fully expect that 90%+ of a) management teams and b) club committees, would vote in favour of bad press plus a championship, over good press and no championship. Right across Ireland.

The subject matter might be a new low. But the appeals process has been morally bankrupt for as long as I can remember.

Firstly Kilcoo have had great success across senior/minor codes this season and that will be recorded in the History books, they have undoubtedly plenty of talented players. Secondly it they may have been tainted by the actions of a few but now completely Tainted by the endorsement of same actions and verbal abuse the Kilcoo club through what was originally effectively a smokescreen to clear the lad to play in the minor final but then appealing the suspension previously and again yesterday.
The apology now has been seen for what is was 'A complete facade' which in itself is another insult to the family of the deceased.

Physicality is a must in GAA and no one wants to see it disappear, after all its a contact sport, but Gouging etc and sledging are not the actions of a man, they are simply the actions of a coward and gypsy, so when you do that and you then end up with a smack in the mouth or your name dragged through the dirt then its a case of "don't do the crime,if you cant do the time".

Put simply Kilcoo have no respect for the rules/regulations of the GAA but would have you believe otherwise. Its a win at all costs mentality were they are happy to use the everyone hates us for justification to excuse low life actions, that are simply cowardly.

If they maintain that their club has standards and don't endorse such actions then they shouldn't help the perpetrators out by appealing punishments and suspensions. Likewise every other club should do the same. That would send a message to young players to play hard but don't lower the name of the club by acting like a gypsy.

As for the lad involved in the disgusting sledging and Dr Slabber who got a smack for mouthing, what lesson have they learned, absolutely none, they have their medals but their reputations are muck!!

[whitegoodman]

I brought Ballyholland into it because you obviously believe they are one of the 90% that would appeal and I would be surprised by that.

The act was despicable at all age groups but even more so at underage level.  To think that most committees  would appeal for the sake of an underage championship is shocking and something I struggle to comprehend or get my head around.  Nor do I believe it to be the truth.

The appeals process may be morally bankrupt but I suspect it has not seen this sort of appeal before.

[whitegoodman]

With the greatest respect WGM, you’re missing my fundamental point. I’m not in any way suggesting that Kilcoo were right to appeal. I’m suggesting that if placed in an identical situation, just about every club in Ireland would appeal.

You might wish to believe that your own club is different. But I expect it’s not.

Anything goes in Gaelic Games. We have a serious cultural issue. Kilcoo are a symptom, not the cause.

This is a fair point - I can't think of any time a player has been suspended by their own club because of an on the field disciplinary issue and I do think while it is easy to take the high ground when it isn't your club. I'm not sure any club would have voluntarily suspended one of their most important players before a county final.

Clubs/coaches maybe in effect 'suspend' players for missing training or breaching a no drink ban etc, but obviously this is just called 'being dropped'.

I do think we have to remember that this happened at underage level though and no matter what clubs/county/provincial boards etc did in this matter in regards to applying and lifting sanctions, the one thing I can say is that as a parent, I can categorically state, that if it was my son who did something like this, he would not have been on that field yesterday.

Good point.

Kilcoo didnt need to do the internal suspension, they just needed to adhere to the suspension already given.

[6th sam]

I get your fundamental point, I still think its wrong.

A clubs actions are based on the culture set within that club.  I would be shocked and horrified if 90% of clubs in Down would appeal an underage suspension given the circumstances.  You obviously believe Ballyholland would have appealed which is a surprise as I know a lot of good people in Ballyholland and would envisage they wouldn't stand for this sort of thing.

Id actually be shocked if 90% of the people on this board didn't disagree with what you say.  If that's not the case then it is extremely disturbing and the GAA really has hit a new low.

There's no need to bring Ballyholland into this.

Of course 90%+ people on this board would disagree with me. It's remarkably easy to have morals unless you're physically voting for them to restrict your club's progress.

But I would fully expect that 90%+ of a) management teams and b) club committees, would vote in favour of bad press plus a championship, over good press and no championship. Right across Ireland.

The subject matter might be a new low. But the appeals process has been morally bankrupt for as long as I can remember.

In view of the sensitivities involved , I don't feel this is the right forum to debate the specifics of controversies at underage level .
However it must be said that whilst there is so much positive about our games, in some things in the GAA we seem to be losing our way.
My own club has recently experienced the very positive supportive network our great organisation provides. We are very grateful and have been truly humbled by the support we have received from many clubs at a very difficult time.
In reality , The vast majority of our experiences with the GAA are no doubt positive.
However it seems to be that there has been a gradual increase in unsavoury incidents and it's time for the GAA to explore this and try and eradicate it. Rugby and soccer have had some success in promoting a positive culture recently .
All clubs have a responsibility to try to promote a positive respectful culture, and those that would point the finger exclusively at certain clubs are missing the point . The conduct of spectators, club officials and on occasion , players , is not acceptable , Especially in the modern era when it is being exposed leaving our association open to ridicule. In soccer , clubs are penalised for behaviour of supporters etc and this is something we should legislate for in the GAA.
We have parents in our club, some from GAA background and some not , who don't want to bring their children to watch games due to the nature and extent of verbals. Sadly this crowd behaviour is almost never challenged by the "slabber's" own club, and therein lies the problem. It's usually left to
Opposition fans to sort out and then it becomes a row and escalates. If clubs were hit in the pocket for proven bad behaviour, they'd soon start to enforce normality.

[thewobbler]

I'd agree with you 6th Sam. Maybe it has always been this way and I wasn't open minded enough to see it, but Gaelic Games has seemingly jumped off a cliff edge when it comes to a moral code.

There is an open culture of cheating. Whether it's through paying extraordinary sums of money in brown envelopes to coaches and back room teams, intimidating the officials, club umpires who refuse any calls to be objective, time wasting and head injuries, kicking balls away, kicking balls in, sledging, cheap shots, gouging, diving and feigning injury, water carriers interrupting play, 20 minute half time breaks, appealing every sanction in board rooms, requesting fixture postponements due to injuries, etc, etc. With little no respect being shown by players, this is of course going to spread to crowds.

How to fix it, I don't know. Bringing back 4 week suspensions instead of 1 game suspensions would definitely though help.

[forevergreen]

I'd agree with you 6th Sam. Maybe it has always been this way and I wasn't open minded enough to see it, but Gaelic Games has seemingly jumped off a cliff edge when it comes to a moral code.

There is an open culture of cheating. Whether it's through paying extraordinary sums of money in brown envelopes to coaches and back room teams, intimidating the officials, club umpires who refuse any calls to be objective, time wasting and head injuries, kicking balls away, kicking balls in, sledging, cheap shots, gouging, diving and feigning injury, water carriers interrupting play, 20 minute half time breaks, appealing every sanction in board rooms, requesting fixture postponements due to injuries, etc, etc. With little no respect being shown by players, this is of course going to spread to crowds.

How to fix it, I don't know. Bringing back 4 week suspensions instead of 1 game suspensions would definitely though help.

well said Wobbler, when suspensions for a strike where 1 month across the board or 3 months for kicking etc there was probably less occurrence, sledging whilst not new has become increasingly more vitriolic and very little way of proving it, hence the perfect way for a coward to operate.
heavier suspensions and a tighter appeals process with a bit more integrity from all concerned would discourage a lot of what is currently going on,

[TheClutch]

Is sledging a regular occurrence in Division 1/2 games? Having been involved in senior football for 10+ years at Division 3/4 level I've experienced very little sledging outside the usual "your sh**e" etc.
Personally I'd be shocked and furious if anything derogatory on a personal/non football level was aimed at myself or team mates, and would expect the referee and offender's club to take appropriate action.There is absolutely no place for it in our games and I'd feel rather ashamed of clubs at the higher end of our county it this was something that happened regularly in the top divisions.

[Town Gael]

Charlie Carr case thrown out. Unconfirmed reports suggest Kilcoo are going to Croke Park to appeal the decision.