China Coronavirus

Started by lurganblue, January 23, 2020, 09:52:32 AM

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Angelo

Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on October 20, 2020, 12:03:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 20, 2020, 11:54:37 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on October 20, 2020, 11:48:47 AM
what happens when the numbers increase to a level that the health system cannot handle? we have seen this in other countries. what happens to other health services as the number increase? what happens the mental health of those who lose loved ones or worst are responsible for giving covid to a loved one who dies.. 

no one on here has denied there are negative aspect of lockdown. No one thinks it a great solution but better than the alterntive taking everything into consideration. i doubt anyone is happy about it but this seems beyond your understanding its easier to start name calling...

I don't know.

It's all speculation, I don't see lockdown being a better alternative to living with the virus and that's from the data we are getting at present.

It's all ifs, buts and maybes but there are a certain cohort of posters on here who know as little as the next man who are displaying bizarre levels of arrogance with absolutely no knowledge on anything and they refuse to even look at the big picture and huge consequences lockdowns and excessive restrictions have on society.

I'd be very interested to see how Slovakia do with their mass testing, it's the most progressive approach I have seen any European country take yet.

you seem very happy to speculate on the outcomes of lockdown?  why is it so hard to speculate on your approach!! which also has a certain level of restrictions.. the arrogence seems to come from you not others.

the data shows increaing numbers of cases... surely you must consider the outcome of that to use your own words people "refuse to even look at the big picture and huge consequences"

Very happy to speculate?

Well done on the most ironic comment on the thread. We are all speculating, all of us, by contending anything I say, you are by your very nature speculating. Saying domestic violence incidents rise and mental health issues are compounded by lockdowns is not speculation though, there is data there to back that assertion up, we will only know to what level in time. It is my view that the consequences of lockdowns and excessive restrictions do more harm than good, it is my view that we are getting too consumed by Covid that we cannot see the consequences of the measure we are taking to combat Covid. And all of us, across all sides are speculating.

Look at all the expert modellers predicting millions of deaths in the UK by x amount of time, how wrong have some of these projections been? And what did those experts do? They speculated, none of us have a golden ball that will tell us what happens so it's an absolute ridiculous contention to make.

The data shows increasing number of cases AND decreasing numbers of fatalties relative to those cases, dropping by double digit multiples all across Europe at present when we contrast with the first wave - that is what the CURRENT data is telling us. I'm looking at the big picture and that's why I'm leaning towards lockdowns and excessive restrictions causing a lot more harm than good. You seem to be solely focusing on Covid.

You've never addressed this question yet. At which point does Covid become an acceptable risk? We have acceptable risk with flu, every year we deem an acceptable level of death, healthcare consumption, health impacts with it and we live with it. At what level do we have to get with Covid before it becomes acceptable? Can you please answer this question? I've done you the courtesy of answering the same question you've posed to me on about 6 different occasions, can you now do me the same?


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Rossfan

Are some posters totally THICK?
The more people get Covid the more will need hospitalisation and the more will need ICU beds.
That means less beds for other serious illnesses.

If 1,000 people get it around 50 need hospitalisation with approx 5 in ICU these days.
If 10,000 people get it.......
If 100,000 get it....

In the absence of a vaccine the only method of limiting the spread has been restrictions on gatherings and movement etc.
I'm still waiting to hear what magic bullet  those who oppose restrictions have and why they're not sharing it with Governments.

All I'm hearing is "let it rip"
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Seaney

Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on October 20, 2020, 12:46:48 PM
Quote from: Seaney on October 20, 2020, 12:33:35 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on October 20, 2020, 12:26:24 PM
Quote from: Seaney on October 20, 2020, 12:21:20 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on October 20, 2020, 12:16:51 PM
The less people getting Covid translates into more beds for people with other illnesses and more ICU beds for people who need major operations etc.

in relation to your daughter...March was a very differnet time and we werent as knowledgeable about covid... the aim is and should be for covid to effect other services as little as possible... this is not possible with numbers increasing... we already had wait lists etc. so health service is already strected and resources are limited and have always been limited...

But it isn't about the number of people getting Covid, it is about the number of people needing beds and that is very low, also my point is the Health System in the North anyways is closed for most and had been since March,  this media narrative of publishing figures daily I don't understand.

the more who have it, the more that need hospital treatment, the more that who need icu.....

Most won't need hospital treatment, less will need ICU, currently very few are getting any medial appointments - do you think that is proportionate?

but the numbers are increasing and will increase to a level where it cannot handle them or any other services if we continue to try and live with covid as we previously did

if the health service are not getting medical apts aove and beyond what is required for covid and expected covid then that is a failure on the health service not of lockdown. Lockdown reduces mumbers  of cases, numbers requiring hosilpital and numbers in icu.. it is then up to the health service to use that capacity appropriately.

Are we saying then all that matters currently is covid, that sounds very disproportionate, my friend's 32 week old daughter had high temp and green stuff running out of her ear, the doctors refused to see the child until she got a covid test, is that proportionate, 32 weeks getting swabbed?


Seaney

Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2020, 12:59:23 PM
Are some posters totally THICK?
The more people get Covid the more will need hospitalisation and the more will need ICU beds.
That means less beds for other serious illnesses.

If 1,000 people get it around 50 need hospitalisation with approx 5 in ICU these days.
If 10,000 people get it.......
If 100,000 get it....


In the absence of a vaccine the only method of limiting the spread has been restrictions on gatherings and movement etc.
I'm still waiting to hear what magic bullet  those who oppose restrictions have and why they're not sharing it with Governments.

All I'm hearing is "let it rip"

You cover yourself in glory - call fellow posters THICK then proceed to make figures up.  Can you please tell me your end game - I will not post all the societal effects lockdowns are having as you will just ignore them again, where and when is this mystery vaccine coming from.


Angelo

Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on October 20, 2020, 12:21:39 PM
Quote from: Seaney on October 20, 2020, 12:15:30 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2020, 12:01:28 PM
The "let it rip" merchants seem to have forgotten the awful scenes from Italy last spring, a Country which has a very good health service which was totally overcome as Covud was ripping.
They also overlook the fact that the restrictions lowered the rate of infection.
"Health Officials on a power trip".
Such a ludicrous comment straight from the Gemma school of right wing nut job fuckwittery.
The less people getting Covid translates into more beds for people with other illnesses and more ICU beds for people who need major operations etc.

But sod them just "let it rip" and sure all will be fine.

It is a headline one would expect to see in the Sun, disproportionate and made with the only rational to get a reaction, it is quite pathetic that folk go down this route - there is no end game here - no vaccine will come to our aid, we have to learn to live with it, but you conclude that that means let it rip!

we tried living with it... numbers increased again after lockdown 1 so living with it is effectively lerting it rip or herd immunity approach..

if there is a successful way to live with it i am sure we wpuld all love to hear it and so would the governments of the world.

We tried living with it?

Cases increased.

0.11 are in ICU.

Sweden are living with it at present. Their 14 day incidence rate is currently much lower than the rest of Europe.

What happens next time we come out of lockdown? Numbers surge back up again and we lock back down again, how on earth is this a viable short term solution. Crossing our fingers and hoping a vaccine comes is not a viable solution, it's absolutely insane.
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Seaney

Quote from: Franko on October 20, 2020, 01:02:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 20, 2020, 01:00:21 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 20, 2020, 12:24:52 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-54612567

The flu yer man said.

Yes the flu.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/flu-and-bed-shortage-responsible-for-record-trolley-numbers-says-taoiseach-1.4131634

I must have missed the masks and hand sanitiser in the shops last January.  ::)

But yet folk went to work in January with the flu and were happy to spread it around, no one cared of the consequences as flu cases and deaths weren't reported hourly.

Angelo

Quote from: Franko on October 20, 2020, 01:02:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 20, 2020, 01:00:21 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 20, 2020, 12:24:52 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-54612567

The flu yer man said.

Yes the flu.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/flu-and-bed-shortage-responsible-for-record-trolley-numbers-says-taoiseach-1.4131634

I must have missed the masks and hand sanitiser in the shops last January.  ::)

I must have missed the lockdowns and restrictive measures in January when the season flu was overwhelming the health service. Just as long as its not Covid doing it, right?
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

Itchy

Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on October 20, 2020, 12:03:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 20, 2020, 11:54:37 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on October 20, 2020, 11:48:47 AM
what happens when the numbers increase to a level that the health system cannot handle? we have seen this in other countries. what happens to other health services as the number increase? what happens the mental health of those who lose loved ones or worst are responsible for giving covid to a loved one who dies.. 

no one on here has denied there are negative aspect of lockdown. No one thinks it a great solution but better than the alterntive taking everything into consideration. i doubt anyone is happy about it but this seems beyond your understanding its easier to start name calling...

I don't know.

It's all speculation, I don't see lockdown being a better alternative to living with the virus and that's from the data we are getting at present.

It's all ifs, buts and maybes but there are a certain cohort of posters on here who know as little as the next man who are displaying bizarre levels of arrogance with absolutely no knowledge on anything and they refuse to even look at the big picture and huge consequences lockdowns and excessive restrictions have on society.

I'd be very interested to see how Slovakia do with their mass testing, it's the most progressive approach I have seen any European country take yet.

you seem very happy to speculate on the outcomes of lockdown?  why is it so hard to speculate on your approach!! which also has a certain level of restrictions.. the arrogence seems to come from you not others.

the data shows increaing numbers of cases... surely you must consider the outcome of that to use your own words people "refuse to even look at the big picture and huge consequences"

Is it not also worth looking at data. Yes, cases are growing at an alarming rate but the death rate is not following the same trajectory as it did in March. We are testing many many more people as anyone who presents with normal cold or flu symptoms is getting a test. All we are being shown by the experts is the amount of cases. Maybe there is more data that we are not seeing. But if there is why is it not being put out on the table. You have to trawl through websites or twitter to get it. So what I know is that cases are high, testing is way up and deaths are still relatively low and have been for weeks. One potential is that there is a longer lag on deaths behind cases than before, another is that the virus is not getting to the old and vulnerable that it reached before and yet another is that it is not as potent for some reason this winter. I cant understand why some of these things are not being discussed and to even suggest discussing them brings a roaring mob upon you.

Seaney

Quote from: Itchy on October 20, 2020, 01:07:45 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on October 20, 2020, 12:03:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 20, 2020, 11:54:37 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on October 20, 2020, 11:48:47 AM
what happens when the numbers increase to a level that the health system cannot handle? we have seen this in other countries. what happens to other health services as the number increase? what happens the mental health of those who lose loved ones or worst are responsible for giving covid to a loved one who dies.. 

no one on here has denied there are negative aspect of lockdown. No one thinks it a great solution but better than the alterntive taking everything into consideration. i doubt anyone is happy about it but this seems beyond your understanding its easier to start name calling...

I don't know.

It's all speculation, I don't see lockdown being a better alternative to living with the virus and that's from the data we are getting at present.

It's all ifs, buts and maybes but there are a certain cohort of posters on here who know as little as the next man who are displaying bizarre levels of arrogance with absolutely no knowledge on anything and they refuse to even look at the big picture and huge consequences lockdowns and excessive restrictions have on society.

I'd be very interested to see how Slovakia do with their mass testing, it's the most progressive approach I have seen any European country take yet.

you seem very happy to speculate on the outcomes of lockdown?  why is it so hard to speculate on your approach!! which also has a certain level of restrictions.. the arrogence seems to come from you not others.

the data shows increaing numbers of cases... surely you must consider the outcome of that to use your own words people "refuse to even look at the big picture and huge consequences"

Is it not also worth looking at data. Yes, cases are growing at an alarming rate but the death rate is not following the same trajectory as it did in March. We are testing many many more people as anyone who presents with normal cold or flu symptoms is getting a test. All we are being shown by the experts is the amount of cases. Maybe there is more data that we are not seeing. But if there is why is it not being put out on the table. You have to trawl through websites or twitter to get it. So what I know is that cases are high, testing is way up and deaths are still relatively low and have been for weeks. One potential is that there is a longer lag on deaths behind cases than before, another is that the virus is not getting to the old and vulnerable that it reached before and yet another is that it is not as potent for some reason this winter. I cant understand why some of these things are not being discussed and to even suggest discussing them brings a roaring mob upon you.

Most are hung up on the media narrative, they are being conditioned to believe and as such have every right in their opinion to attack rather than debate.

Angelo

Quote from: Seaney on October 20, 2020, 01:05:32 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 20, 2020, 01:02:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 20, 2020, 01:00:21 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 20, 2020, 12:24:52 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-54612567

The flu yer man said.

Yes the flu.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/flu-and-bed-shortage-responsible-for-record-trolley-numbers-says-taoiseach-1.4131634

I must have missed the masks and hand sanitiser in the shops last January.  ::)

But yet folk went to work in January with the flu and were happy to spread it around, no one cared of the consequences as flu cases and deaths weren't reported hourly.

The message from these people is that it's ok to die from flu, it's not ok to die from Covid.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

Angelo

Quote from: Itchy on October 20, 2020, 01:07:45 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on October 20, 2020, 12:03:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 20, 2020, 11:54:37 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on October 20, 2020, 11:48:47 AM
what happens when the numbers increase to a level that the health system cannot handle? we have seen this in other countries. what happens to other health services as the number increase? what happens the mental health of those who lose loved ones or worst are responsible for giving covid to a loved one who dies.. 

no one on here has denied there are negative aspect of lockdown. No one thinks it a great solution but better than the alterntive taking everything into consideration. i doubt anyone is happy about it but this seems beyond your understanding its easier to start name calling...

I don't know.

It's all speculation, I don't see lockdown being a better alternative to living with the virus and that's from the data we are getting at present.

It's all ifs, buts and maybes but there are a certain cohort of posters on here who know as little as the next man who are displaying bizarre levels of arrogance with absolutely no knowledge on anything and they refuse to even look at the big picture and huge consequences lockdowns and excessive restrictions have on society.

I'd be very interested to see how Slovakia do with their mass testing, it's the most progressive approach I have seen any European country take yet.

you seem very happy to speculate on the outcomes of lockdown?  why is it so hard to speculate on your approach!! which also has a certain level of restrictions.. the arrogence seems to come from you not others.

the data shows increaing numbers of cases... surely you must consider the outcome of that to use your own words people "refuse to even look at the big picture and huge consequences"

Is it not also worth looking at data. Yes, cases are growing at an alarming rate but the death rate is not following the same trajectory as it did in March. We are testing many many more people as anyone who presents with normal cold or flu symptoms is getting a test. All we are being shown by the experts is the amount of cases. Maybe there is more data that we are not seeing. But if there is why is it not being put out on the table. You have to trawl through websites or twitter to get it. So what I know is that cases are high, testing is way up and deaths are still relatively low and have been for weeks. One potential is that there is a longer lag on deaths behind cases than before, another is that the virus is not getting to the old and vulnerable that it reached before and yet another is that it is not as potent for some reason this winter. I cant understand why some of these things are not being discussed and to even suggest discussing them brings a roaring mob upon you.

Exactly, for daring to even offer an alternative opinion based on current data available you have a horde Screaming Marys accusing you of wanting people to die along with other vulgar expletives.


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Franko

Quote from: Angelo on October 20, 2020, 01:06:31 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 20, 2020, 01:02:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 20, 2020, 01:00:21 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 20, 2020, 12:24:52 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-54612567

The flu yer man said.

Yes the flu.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/flu-and-bed-shortage-responsible-for-record-trolley-numbers-says-taoiseach-1.4131634

I must have missed the masks and hand sanitiser in the shops last January.  ::)

I must have missed the lockdowns and restrictive measures in January when the season flu was overwhelming the health service. Just as long as its not Covid doing it, right?

Not for the first time you completely fail to understand.

There's a stereotype of the big aul thick Tyrone man that loves Celtic, the Ra and a good fight, but has his brains in his arse.

Always thought it was unfair.

I see it now.

lenny

Quote from: Angelo on October 20, 2020, 12:57:18 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on October 20, 2020, 12:03:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 20, 2020, 11:54:37 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on October 20, 2020, 11:48:47 AM
what happens when the numbers increase to a level that the health system cannot handle? we have seen this in other countries. what happens to other health services as the number increase? what happens the mental health of those who lose loved ones or worst are responsible for giving covid to a loved one who dies.. 

no one on here has denied there are negative aspect of lockdown. No one thinks it a great solution but better than the alterntive taking everything into consideration. i doubt anyone is happy about it but this seems beyond your understanding its easier to start name calling...

I don't know.

It's all speculation, I don't see lockdown being a better alternative to living with the virus and that's from the data we are getting at present.

It's all ifs, buts and maybes but there are a certain cohort of posters on here who know as little as the next man who are displaying bizarre levels of arrogance with absolutely no knowledge on anything and they refuse to even look at the big picture and huge consequences lockdowns and excessive restrictions have on society.

I'd be very interested to see how Slovakia do with their mass testing, it's the most progressive approach I have seen any European country take yet.

you seem very happy to speculate on the outcomes of lockdown?  why is it so hard to speculate on your approach!! which also has a certain level of restrictions.. the arrogence seems to come from you not others.

the data shows increaing numbers of cases... surely you must consider the outcome of that to use your own words people "refuse to even look at the big picture and huge consequences"

Very happy to speculate?

Well done on the most ironic comment on the thread. We are all speculating, all of us, by contending anything I say, you are by your very nature speculating. Saying domestic violence incidents rise and mental health issues are compounded by lockdowns is not speculation though, there is data there to back that assertion up, we will only know to what level in time. It is my view that the consequences of lockdowns and excessive restrictions do more harm than good, it is my view that we are getting too consumed by Covid that we cannot see the consequences of the measure we are taking to combat Covid. And all of us, across all sides are speculating.

Look at all the expert modellers predicting millions of deaths in the UK by x amount of time, how wrong have some of these projections been? And what did those experts do? They speculated, none of us have a golden ball that will tell us what happens so it's an absolute ridiculous contention to make.

The data shows increasing number of cases AND decreasing numbers of fatalties relative to those cases, dropping by double digit multiples all across Europe at present when we contrast with the first wave - that is what the CURRENT data is telling us. I'm looking at the big picture and that's why I'm leaning towards lockdowns and excessive restrictions causing a lot more harm than good. You seem to be solely focusing on Covid.

You've never addressed this question yet. At which point does Covid become an acceptable risk? We have acceptable risk with flu, every year we deem an acceptable level of death, healthcare consumption, health impacts with it and we live with it. At what level do we have to get with Covid before it becomes acceptable? Can you please answer this question? I've done you the courtesy of answering the same question you've posed to me on about 6 different occasions, can you now do me the same?

It's quite likely that the expert modellers would've been right but for lockdown measures, combined with masks and social distancing. The fatality rate falling can easily be explained by the fact that it's mainly younger people who are getting infected now and their immune system is better able to fight off the virus. At the start a good number of older people were exposed to the virus and a large number sadly died.

The danger of not having lockdowns is that the NHS becomes overwhelmed meaning that sick people (with all illnesses, not just covid) can't be treated. That will inevitably happen if the virus is allowed to spread unchecked. The aim of the lockdowns and other measures is mainly to ensure the hospitals don't have the situations we saw in March in Spain and Italy where patients were lying on hospital floors because all beds were taken.

Another important point about the virus is that it's really not like the flu. A lot of people are trying to minimise the risk by saying it's just a mild flu. There are hundreds of thousands of people around the world suffering from "long covid". I know of 3 people who have terrible symptoms 6 months after they contracted the virus with no signs of these symptoms easing. None of the 3 had a particularly bad dose initially and weren't in hospital. I also know a cardiologist who works in the RVH and ha says there are quite a number of people coming into hospital with severe heart problems 4 or 5 months after getting covid. These were people who had mild symptoms or were asymptomatic. These aren't just anecdotes, I've also seen lots of reports of these issues in the papers. No one knows the long term effects of covid, even those who think they've got over it quickly may have problems waiting for them down the line.

The mood music around a vaccine is very good,  it's quite likely we'll have one for February/March of 2021. Short lockdowns are a necessary evil until then to ensure our NHS can cope.