Leinster hurling final - DUBLIN V Kilkenny

[bottlethrower7]

i'm for this tactic of deploying an extra man in defence against a team of Kilkenny's skill. players need confidence, and had they been blown out of the water in the first ten minutes then the game would have been a disaster for Dublin going into the next match.

maybe with ten minutes to go you bring the extra man back into the forwards to see if he can get a score or two but 15 on 15 against Kilkenny is madness.

lets judge Dublin over the 3 years Daly has them and see if they have improved. certainly they have do so already.

I don't think Daly feels the tactic worked though. He clearly wanted to win the match, judging by his post-match disappointment. To me its almost tantamount to being disappointed that you didn't win the raffle after not buying a ticket. You don't give yourself every chance, you don't succeed.

This is championship. Its about winning. Not about score difference.

But you are right, lets give Daly the benefit of the doubt. As I said before though, if Dublin get into a repetitive cycle of honourable defeats then I don't think that can be classed as progress.

[AZOffaly]

He does, and that's a few times it 'nearly' worked, if you count Clare's performances against the Cats when he was over them. I suppose at what point do you say it is always 'nearly' going to work, and bite the bullet to try something that might beat them. I think Daly's approach to them is to keep them tied up and tight, and hope that you get a couple of goals or something from mistakes to push you over the edge.

From an Offaly perspective, that might be something to try, as we try to get confidence and competitive, but for a team with good hurlers like Dublin, Galway, Cork etc, there must be something more positive you can try, while at the same time limiting them. Cork's 'targetted' puckouts caused Kilkenny trouble a few times as well, because it took their half back line out of the game in terms of competing for long ball. That was a bit more positive. Wexford probably had the best appraoch, if they were a bit better, which was all based on speed. Speed of movement, speed of thought, and speed of delivery. The ball was pinging from wing to wing to isolate Wexford forwards on Kilkenny full backs, and they got a lot of joy out of it. Then they ran out of steam spectacularly.

That may be the best positive way to play them. Deep lying midfielders to try to crowd the half forwards of Kilkenny, with loads of space up front, diagonal balls in low in front of speed forwards one on one. 60-40/70-30 balls all the way. Easy to type, not so easy to do, I know.

[bottlethrower7]

He does, and that's a few times it 'nearly' worked, if you count Clare's performances against the Cats when he was over them. I suppose at what point do you say it is always 'nearly' going to work, and bite the bullet to try something that might beat them. I think Daly's approach to them is to keep them tied up and tight, and hope that you get a couple of goals or something from mistakes to push you over the edge.

From an Offaly perspective, that might be something to try, as we try to get confidence and competitive, but for a team with good hurlers like Dublin, Galway, Cork etc, there must be something more positive you can try, while at the same time limiting them. Cork's 'targetted' puckouts caused Kilkenny trouble a few times as well, because it took their half back line out of the game in terms of competing for long ball. That was a bit more positive. Wexford probably had the best appraoch, if they were a bit better, which was all based on speed. Speed of movement, speed of thought, and speed of delivery. The ball was pinging from wing to wing to isolate Wexford forwards on Kilkenny full backs, and they got a lot of joy out of it. Then they ran out of steam spectacularly.

That may be the best positive way to play them. Deep lying midfielders to try to crowd the half forwards of Kilkenny, with loads of space up front, diagonal balls in low in front of speed forwards one on one. 60-40/70-30 balls all the way. Easy to type, not so easy to do, I know.

yep, completely agree. And you hit the nail on the head when you say that Dublin have good hurlers and hence don't need to try and limit other teams. A containment plan be a sensible option for a team like Offaly who are in serious rebuilding mode. Dublin are beyond that at the minute. Now they have to try and push on, be as ambitious as they can be, and see how much they can get from this bunch of players.

I think Dublin were 10 points a better team than Wexford and that the extra man back tactic (that didn't work great in that game either - Durkin was a poor choice for the roving role) almost cost them the game.

It seems that this tactic hasn't actually benefited Dublin in terms of actually beating anyone of note yet. What we're talking about is a team that came closer to Kilkenny and Tipp than a lot of other teams, but how does one rate a narrow loss? Surely teams should be judged by victories? For Dublin, they should be trying to play to their own strengths. A tactic based on energy and hard work, coupled with good hurling, perhaps consisting (as you said) of low diagonal ball into the corner forwards, or a high ball into a target man to break to the aftermentioned corner forwards, might be better.

As you also said though, perhaps easier said than done......

[INDIANA]

He does, and that's a few times it 'nearly' worked, if you count Clare's performances against the Cats when he was over them. I suppose at what point do you say it is always 'nearly' going to work, and bite the bullet to try something that might beat them. I think Daly's approach to them is to keep them tied up and tight, and hope that you get a couple of goals or something from mistakes to push you over the edge.

From an Offaly perspective, that might be something to try, as we try to get confidence and competitive, but for a team with good hurlers like Dublin, Galway, Cork etc, there must be something more positive you can try, while at the same time limiting them. Cork's 'targetted' puckouts caused Kilkenny trouble a few times as well, because it took their half back line out of the game in terms of competing for long ball. That was a bit more positive. Wexford probably had the best appraoch, if they were a bit better, which was all based on speed. Speed of movement, speed of thought, and speed of delivery. The ball was pinging from wing to wing to isolate Wexford forwards on Kilkenny full backs, and they got a lot of joy out of it. Then they ran out of steam spectacularly.

That may be the best positive way to play them. Deep lying midfielders to try to crowd the half forwards of Kilkenny, with loads of space up front, diagonal balls in low in front of speed forwards one on one. 60-40/70-30 balls all the way. Easy to type, not so easy to do, I know.

yep, completely agree. And you hit the nail on the head when you say that Dublin have good hurlers and hence don't need to try and limit other teams. A containment plan be a sensible option for a team like Offaly who are in serious rebuilding mode. Dublin are beyond that at the minute. Now they have to try and push on, be as ambitious as they can be, and see how much they can get from this bunch of players.

I think Dublin were 10 points a better team than Wexford and that the extra man back tactic (that didn't work great in that game either - Durkin was a poor choice for the roving role) almost cost them the game.

It seems that this tactic hasn't actually benefited Dublin in terms of actually beating anyone of note yet. What we're talking about is a team that came closer to Kilkenny and Tipp than a lot of other teams, but how does one rate a narrow loss? Surely teams should be judged by victories? For Dublin, they should be trying to play to their own strengths. A tactic based on energy and hard work, coupled with good hurling, perhaps consisting (as you said) of low diagonal ball into the corner forwards, or a high ball into a target man to break to the aftermentioned corner forwards, might be better.

As you also said though, perhaps easier said than done......

The reason I don't agree is ask yourself how many Dublin hurlers would get on the Kilkenny team? 3/4 at the very very best. Maybe not even at this stage. The stakes were too high for a first leinster final. A 20 point defeat would have signalled the end of this team before it began. You never recover from defeats like that and thus the cycle of being hammered by Kilkenny continues. The next time this team plays Kilkenny in a final- they'll go in thinking they can win.
For example the next time Waterford play kilkenny in the championship- they won't get a wink of sleep the night before thinking about last September.

[bottlethrower7]

The reason I don't agree is ask yourself how many Dublin hurlers would get on the Kilkenny team? 3/4 at the very very best. Maybe not even at this stage. The stakes were too high for a first leinster final. A 20 point defeat would have signalled the end of this team before it began. You never recover from defeats like that and thus the cycle of being hammered by Kilkenny continues. The next time this team plays Kilkenny in a final- they'll go in thinking they can win.
For example the next time Waterford play kilkenny in the championship- they won't get a wink of sleep the night before thinking about last September.

thats all valid and fair. And I think in time we'll find out for sure if its the case or not. For now, that performance should bring on the team a lot. They should have every confidence in the qualifiers, regardless who they get drawn against. At some stage there'll come a time though when they'll need to approach the game a little more attack minded.

I should state for the record that I've always been cynical about that tactic, and that probably accounts for my opinions on sunday's game. The first time I recall it being used is by Clare in the '97 all-Ireland final. David Forde was the man brought back that day and it was Micheal Church Ryan left back as the spare man. It ended up causing an amount of confusion (that Tipp team had the least mobile full-back line in the recent history of hurling), and worked. Clare won, largely because of those tactics. But since then its been a negative thing in my view. Teams wanting to limit the damage the other team would do (which is all well and good in the case of a team playing into a gale for one half or other), and hope for the best on the break. Waterford beat Kilkenny in the league a few years back playing the same way (Dave Bennett the spare man that day). But mostly it doesn't work from what I can gather and there are upteen examples of this. I'm all for the orthodox 15-on-15 formation. Go toe-to-toe with your man, and the best team will triumph. So my views aren't necessarily that balanced.

[tayto]

I can see what yer sayin Bottle, but it was imperative that we emerged from the Leinster Final with confidence as intact as possible. In reality both goals could be chalked down to mix-ups and be considered a bit on the soft side, so we might have been closer at the end. As it is we've emerged into the quarter final with confidence high enough and everything to play for, the quarter final, funnily enough, is almost a more important game then the Leinster final - a good draw and things could get very interesting. I do think next year we'll see a more open Dublin team with, hopefully, McCrabbe spending more time in attack then roaming around midfield. Fallon's retuen would free up Joey Boland to play midfield alongside McCaffery. 

[bottlethrower7]

how does the quarter final draw work? I've heard many different versions of how it might work. Anyone know for sure? Some lads I was talking to last night said that, given the possible combinations (Galway, should they beat Clare, won't be able to play Laois again), the likelihood is that Dublin will draw Cork.

[bottlethrower7]

All Ireland Championship

04.07.2009(Sat)
Phase I (Knock-out)

Leinster Round 1 Loser
Leinster Round 1 Loser
Leinster Round 1 Loser
Munster Round 1Loser

An Open Draw shall determine the Pairings. The first Team drawn in each pairing shall have Home Venue, provided venue meets the criteria set down by the National Safety and Infrastructure Committee.

The two Winners shall progress to Phase III
(Draw to take place on the 21st June 2009 on TV3)

11.07.2009 (Sat)
Phase II
Leinster Semi-Final Losers
Munster Semi-Final Losers

Open Draw for Pairings and a further draw for Home or Away venues (provided venue meets the criteria set down by the National Safety and Infrastructure Committee).

The two Winners shall progress to Phase III
(Draw to take place on the 21st June 2009 on TV3)

18.07.2009 (Sat)
Phase III
Phase I Winner v Phase II Winner
Phase I Winner v Phase II Winner

Subject to avoidance of Repeat Pairings, where feasible, a Draw shall be made to determine the Pairings.
(Draw to take place on the 12th July 2009 on RTE2)

25/26.07.2009 (Sat/Sun)
All Ireland Quarter-Finals
Munster Provincial Final Runner Up v Phase III Winner
Leinster Provincial Final Runner Up v Phase III Winner

Subject to avoidance of Repeat Pairings, where feasible, a Draw shall be made to determine the Pairings.
(Draw to take place on the 19th July 2009 on RTE2)

09.08.2009 (Sun)
All Ireland Semi-Finals
Leinster Provincial Winner v Quarter-Final Winner

Draw to be made to determine pairings subject to the respective Provincial Champions not meeting the defeated Finalists from their own Province.
(Draw to take place on the 26th July 2009 on RTE2)

16.08.2009 (Sun)
All Ireland Semi-Finals
Munster Provincial Winner v Quarter-Final Winner

Draw to be made to determine pairings subject to the respective Provincial Champions not meeting the defeated Finalists from their own Province.
(Draw to take place on the 26th July 2009 on RTE2)

06.09.2009 (Sun) - (Replay 27.09.2009)
All Ireland Final
Semi-Final Winner v Semi-Final Winner

Relegation

18.07.2009 (Sat)
Round I
Phase I Loser
Phase I Loser
Phase II Loser
Phase II Loser

Subject to avoidance of Repeat Pairings, where feasible, a Draw shall be made to determine the Pairings.

25.07.2009 (Sat)
Round II
Round I Loser v Round I Loser

[Declan]

Daly asks for more of same from Dublin supporters

By Antony Daly (Courtesy of the Evening Herald)

This morning (Tuesday) I still felt the way I felt after the final whistle on Sunday. I am disappointed. I really thought we could win this Leinster title. We werent going into the match to just put it up to Kilkenny, we were there to win.

Of course I am proud of the lads. You almost needed to be standing on the sideline to see the effort they put it over the seventy minutes. Fellas were throwing themselves into challenges and blocks.

That is the commitment that keeps me on the road from West Clare to Dublin a couple of times a week. These lads gave everything and we really couldnt have asked for any more.

Yes, we did some silly things. Yes, we made mistakes. But every team will do that over the course of seventy minutes. It is just that when you play Kilkenny, they will kill you for it.

Naturally, we have great respect for Kilkenny but we couldnt be overawed playing them. You have to get stuck into them because they get stuck into you. If you stand back from the Cats or pay them too much respect they will destroy you.

And that is the major plus to take from this game. We lived with Kilkenny for the entire seventy minutes. And make no mistake about it, this was seventy minutes of intense championship hurling. We ended up losing by six points and conceded what we would consider to be two soft goals. A few balls squirted out of fellas hands at crucial times and we paid for it with scores at our end.

Some day some team are going to beat the Cats and when they do all of that will have to go right for them. You cannot encourage them by giving them the ball cheaply.

And of course Martin Comerford, a player who usually makes the scores for Henry or Eddie Brennan, bangs in two goals. That is typical Kilkenny. And that is typical of a great team. On a day when maybe the star names arent on the scoreboard, someone steps up and delivers.

But Sunday is over now. We have three weeks to heal and to get our heads right for the All-Ireland quarter-finals. And that is our biggest of the game of the year. We wont be afraid of any team we draw next Sunday night. Why should we be?

We are hurling into late July and if anything we are only getting better. We are in the last six of the All-Ireland hurling championship and every team that is left by the quarter-final stages will quietly fancy their chances. We will be no different.

Before I leave Sunday a word about the support the players got from the crowd. When Come on you Boys in Blue started sweeping Croke Park in the second half the hair nearly stood up on the back of my neck. And there isnt a doubt in my mind but that support lifted the players. You could visibly see it in them.

Hopefully all those Dublin supporters will be back with a few more for the quarter-final because that means something to the team.

To know a crowd are behind you like that when you are wearing the county jersey, it is special. And that was something the players spoke about afterwards. So more of that please!

[INDIANA]

The man is a saint. Best thing thats ever happened to hurling in Dublin IMO.

[orangeman]

The man is a saint. Best thing thats ever happened to hurling in Dublin IMO.

Not sure about the saint description.    But has brought this team on leaps and bounds - once the whipping boys, they're now a serious force - ok the team has great hurlers but the passion they showed last week was unreal. Everybody was predicting a slaughter - it didn't happen.

[Gnevin]

Rushe condemns Kilkenny tackling
Dublin's Liam Rushe
14 July 2009

Rising Dublin hurling star Liam Rushe has added his weight to claims that Kilkenny are being given more leeway by referees than others by describing some of their tackling as "dangerous".

Rushe, who was part of the Dublin senior side that put up a creditable performance against Brian Cody's charges in last Sunday week's Leinster final, will renew acquaintances with the black and ambers tomorrow night when the counties meet in the Leinster under 21 decider at Parnell Park.

"I saw the tackles myself and they were pretty dangerous, but we're just going to have to deal with it," the St. Pat's, Palmerstown clubman said.

"If the referees are going to let them away with it, it means we might as well do it as bad and hopefully we'll be let away with it as well.

"It's very frustrating when you see them let away with it and you see Kevin Flynn in our semi-final against Wexford being sent off for a tackle that was nowhere near as bad."

Rushe also rejects suggestions that Kilkenny were only operating at half-steam against Anthony Daly's side in the Leinster final.

"People have said that but Tommy Walsh didn't seem to be taking it easy and neither did JJ Delaney when he had both hands around me. I suppose they raise it a level above everyone else.

"They've brought a new intensity to it and everyone's going to have to match them if they want to get close."

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=114909

No smoke without fire or a case of sour grapes?

[orangeman]

Rushe condemns Kilkenny tackling
Dublin's Liam Rushe
14 July 2009

Rising Dublin hurling star Liam Rushe has added his weight to claims that Kilkenny are being given more leeway by referees than others by describing some of their tackling as "dangerous".

Rushe, who was part of the Dublin senior side that put up a creditable performance against Brian Cody's charges in last Sunday week's Leinster final, will renew acquaintances with the black and ambers tomorrow night when the counties meet in the Leinster under 21 decider at Parnell Park.

"I saw the tackles myself and they were pretty dangerous, but we're just going to have to deal with it," the St. Pat's, Palmerstown clubman said.

"If the referees are going to let them away with it, it means we might as well do it as bad and hopefully we'll be let away with it as well.

"It's very frustrating when you see them let away with it and you see Kevin Flynn in our semi-final against Wexford being sent off for a tackle that was nowhere near as bad."

Rushe also rejects suggestions that Kilkenny were only operating at half-steam against Anthony Daly's side in the Leinster final.

"People have said that but Tommy Walsh didn't seem to be taking it easy and neither did JJ Delaney when he had both hands around me. I suppose they raise it a level above everyone else.

"They've brought a new intensity to it and everyone's going to have to match them if they want to get close."

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=114909

No smoke without fire or a case of sour grapes?

He'd have been better keeping his powder dry. It comes across as sour grapes.

[heffo]

Rushe condemns Kilkenny tackling
Dublin's Liam Rushe
14 July 2009

Rising Dublin hurling star Liam Rushe has added his weight to claims that Kilkenny are being given more leeway by referees than others by describing some of their tackling as "dangerous".

Rushe, who was part of the Dublin senior side that put up a creditable performance against Brian Cody's charges in last Sunday week's Leinster final, will renew acquaintances with the black and ambers tomorrow night when the counties meet in the Leinster under 21 decider at Parnell Park.

"I saw the tackles myself and they were pretty dangerous, but we're just going to have to deal with it," the St. Pat's, Palmerstown clubman said.

"If the referees are going to let them away with it, it means we might as well do it as bad and hopefully we'll be let away with it as well.

"It's very frustrating when you see them let away with it and you see Kevin Flynn in our semi-final against Wexford being sent off for a tackle that was nowhere near as bad."

Rushe also rejects suggestions that Kilkenny were only operating at half-steam against Anthony Daly's side in the Leinster final.

"People have said that but Tommy Walsh didn't seem to be taking it easy and neither did JJ Delaney when he had both hands around me. I suppose they raise it a level above everyone else.

"They've brought a new intensity to it and everyone's going to have to match them if they want to get close."

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=114909

No smoke without fire or a case of sour grapes?

He'd have been better keeping his powder dry. It comes across as sour grapes.

Fully agree - he's only 19 though - someone should've told him what to say and what not to say in interviews..

[orangeman]

Rushe condemns Kilkenny tackling
Dublin's Liam Rushe
14 July 2009

Rising Dublin hurling star Liam Rushe has added his weight to claims that Kilkenny are being given more leeway by referees than others by describing some of their tackling as "dangerous".

Rushe, who was part of the Dublin senior side that put up a creditable performance against Brian Cody's charges in last Sunday week's Leinster final, will renew acquaintances with the black and ambers tomorrow night when the counties meet in the Leinster under 21 decider at Parnell Park.

"I saw the tackles myself and they were pretty dangerous, but we're just going to have to deal with it," the St. Pat's, Palmerstown clubman said.

"If the referees are going to let them away with it, it means we might as well do it as bad and hopefully we'll be let away with it as well.

"It's very frustrating when you see them let away with it and you see Kevin Flynn in our semi-final against Wexford being sent off for a tackle that was nowhere near as bad."

Rushe also rejects suggestions that Kilkenny were only operating at half-steam against Anthony Daly's side in the Leinster final.

"People have said that but Tommy Walsh didn't seem to be taking it easy and neither did JJ Delaney when he had both hands around me. I suppose they raise it a level above everyone else.

"They've brought a new intensity to it and everyone's going to have to match them if they want to get close."

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=114909

No smoke without fire or a case of sour grapes?

He'd have been better keeping his powder dry. It comes across as sour grapes.

Fully agree - he's only 19 though - someone should've told him what to say and what not to say in interviews..

[/b]


Not in the GPA then ?